Roger Cleveland's Journey: Elevating Your Short Game with Legendary Wedge Craftsmanship

What if mastering just one club could revolutionize your entire golf game? Join us as we sit down with the iconic Roger Cleveland, whose journey from founding Cleveland Golf to becoming a legendary wedge maker at Callaway is nothing short of fascinating. Discover how his early days crafting classic persimmon woods shaped his meticulous approach to golf club making, and hear his thoughts on the importance of mental health within the golf community, sparked by the tragic passing of Grayson Murray.

Ever wondered how the best in golf perfect their short game? We reminisce about playing alongside greats like David Graham and trace the evolution of golf equipment over the decades. My tenure at Callaway Golf, starting in 1996, offered a front-row seat to groundbreaking advancements in irons and wedges, driven by rigorous R&D and AI innovations. Learn why practicing diverse shot types in various conditions can swiftly elevate your scores and deepen your love for the game.

Could the right wedge technique be your secret weapon? Explore with us the critical role of bounce and specialized techniques for different lies and conditions. Roger shares expert insights on using the sole of the club and less shaft lean for optimal performance. We also dive into my latest short game innovations, including the use of heavier wedges for improved feel and distance control. This heartfelt conversation wraps up with mutual admiration and a hopeful invitation for a future round of golf. Listen in for an episode rich in golf history, technical mastery, and a call for empathy.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Flyowners Golf Podcast. This is a good one and my name is Jesse Perryman, just in case you're just checking in for the first time. And this week we've got Roger Cleveland, the iconic Roger Cleveland, and those of us who have been playing golf for a long time undoubtedly knows who Roger is. Roger got his start in the club making side of it, founding his own company, cleveland Golf, and from great persimmons to becoming one of the iconic wedge makers, right up there with Mr Boeke, and it's a great conversation. It's a fun conversation where we span his career in a short amount of time and we talk about Cleveland and we talk about all the old school golf clubs that he built, all the great ones and the wedges, culminating with his career now with Callaway. He's been with Callaway for a long time and he has made some fantastic wedges out there, fantastic golf equipment, great guy, one of the nicest guys in golf you'll ever meet, and it was a fun one. This is a short one this week and, in light of the tragedy with Grayson Murray, I want to really exponentiate something with mental health and that's a part of my mission on the podcast with certain people that we have on when we talk about the mental side of it, and there are people out there that are hurting and we want to try to be patient with those who are and offer some empathy and some compassion toward our fellow man. And you never know who's going through what toward our fellow man and you never know who's going through what. You know we're all. Finally, excuse me, we're all fighting silent battles and it would behoove us to be kind to ourselves and to our fellow human beings, because you just don't know what's going on behind closed doors. Rest in peace to Grayson, gone far too long. My heart goes out to his family and I'm sure the rest of the golf world and the world at large will support his family and honor his memory from afar. So thanks to Roger for coming on and cheers everyone. I hope you have a great week and once again, if you're hurting, don't be afraid to call someone. You know talking to someone is the next step to getting yourself on stable ground. Cheers everybody.

Speaker 1: 2:45

Hello and welcome to a very special edition of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast. My name is Jesse Perryman and I am your host, as we dive into each conversation with a great spirit of curiosity and always the intent to get better playing the game that we absolutely love that. We spend a lot of time thinking about contemplating playing and long before or long after we get off the golf course a lot of times at least I find myself thinking about my round, if I played and what I could have done differently. But the game is within all of us and the man that we've got on today is someone that I have a tremendous amount of respect for. His name has been in the golf business for decades. His name has been in the golf business for decades.

Speaker 1: 3:23

In fact, my first introduction to Cleveland was my RC85 Persimmon Woods in high school. How about that? So if that doesn't give Roger Cleveland away, I don't know what does. Roger, thanks for coming on and taking the time. Pleasure Nice to be with you, you know. So, speaking of those RC85 Persimmon, I still have the five. Oh my gosh, those clubs were great. I miss them.

Speaker 2: 3:48

I miss playing them. That was the last Persimmon Wood used on the tour, that particular model, and Davis Love used it. I think it was in the PGA Championship like 94. So Metalwoods have been out there a long time and so that was a heck of an era and that was so much fun to make. Persimmon was there were about 60 steps to make it. We, uh, we got our own wood with, you know, already cut, and we had turning machines. And, uh, that room where we turned it we made our own masters to turn off of. And and uh, so you, you did that and then started boring the boring the hole for you know the, the lie and so forth, and and uh, there's a lot, of a lot of. You had to really know your stuff because each successive step could mess it up so, oh sure, yeah, I can.

Speaker 1: 4:41

I can only imagine, so, uh, going back back or back in the day. Roger, how did you get your start in the golf business?

Speaker 2: 4:48

Well, basically being unemployable, and I played as a youth and did pretty well and was able to go to know some some uh, my buddies were, were went on to the tour and and uh, and I went out into business for a few, you know a number of years and then I went to. I wanted to. I collect old clubs, historical clubs, uh, hickory shafted clubs and so I went to the pga show with one of these putters, the calamity jity Jane putter that Bobby Jones used and looked around this was about 1980. Looked around and there were not too many persimmon woods and all the great manufacturers McGregor and Spalding and Wilson had moved their primary base of operation and a lot of the skilled workers did not move with them and so the woods were not to my liking. So I went back. There was a woodmaker Charlie Lyons had a foundry and they had woodmaking capability in there as well in Southern California, and Bobby Gonzalez and Jesse's brother were the woodmakers and I went back and I told them what I wanted to do and we started doing it and that was the first product actually were the persimmon woods.

Speaker 2: 6:12

And then, when I went out on tour with them and we had some success, I looked around and the next thing I saw that was an opportunity were wedges, because I didn't have a lot of money when I started Cleveland Golf and the guys out there were using Wilson wedges from 58, 59. Okay, this is 80. And the old Dyna Powers, and they were wonderful and I didn't want to copy. I took some of the traits or some of the interesting the soles and so forth, but the silhouette, the shape and everything. So I started creating shapes, went out to the tour with them and got some feedback and the tour was my R&D.

Speaker 2: 6:55

So I came back, we started tooling and did a wedge and that was the first wedge that I actually did out. There was called a 485. And that was the fourth set actually that I had done in 1985. And the next one was 588, 588. And that's the one that was a little bit bigger and was extremely popular. And so that's how I started. And then we did some irons after that, but I you know, by necessity, we went out there and gave the tour what they wanted and boy did you ever?

Speaker 2: 7:28

oh man, I remember those wedges, that, uh gosh, I think it was the first with me and and, uh, that's what lee played, and I used to send him like 20 wedges at a time and he he loved the face being as rough as possible, so he kept them actually the as-cast, which had a scale on it that you'd have to grind off, but he loved that and he just drilled big holes in the back. It was pretty nasty looking, but boy, could he hit a wedge.

Speaker 1: 8:00

Oh, as I was saying to you earlier, roger, the best wedge player I've ever seen, yep, yep, he can wedge player I've ever seen, yeah, he can really exact his will on that, on any kind of shot that he wanted to hit, or still continues to this day. He can hit that, and his wedges were particularly nuanced. Did he double bend back when you were working with him?

Speaker 2: 8:23

He just what he did. He created a little bit. He wanted them flatter. He wanted a little flatter but he wanted some offset. So you, what you do is you have a little trick of bending the hosel to add that offset. And he, we did.

Speaker 1: 8:42

Did he ever tell you the reason why he wanted so much offset?

Speaker 2: 8:45

Yeah, we did. Did he ever tell you the reason why he wanted so much offset? Well, it moves the CG further back of the shaft. He loved to draw it. Okay, he loves to hit low draws or any type of shot, so that helps him.

Speaker 1: 8:59

Sure, so he really was intentional back then with exactly what he wanted to do.

Speaker 2: 9:05

He knows what he wants to do. He was amazing and still is. I had a chance to play with him last year and it was great fun with David Graham, who was in the Persimmon era. He was with McGregor and a great champion, okay, and he was really important to me. He gave me some great feedback.

Speaker 1: 9:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, mr Graham was also a big gearhead.

Speaker 2: 9:27

A lot of people didn't know that, or don't know that he had the best eye of anybody to this day. That's interesting.

Speaker 1: 9:35

Not a surprise that David Graham didn't go into the equipment space. He would have been a pretty good asset. Oh, tremendous.

Speaker 2: 9:41

Yeah, yeah. Well, he did the best irons that McGregor made. He was involved with those.

Speaker 1: 9:47

So moving forward and fast forwarding all the way to today. What's your primary role with Callaway Golf?

Speaker 2: 9:57

Well, I left there, I started at Callaway in 1996. And one of the things that I did did irons with calloway initially, and and obviously the wedges, so the new woods there were metal woods but I helped with shaping on some of them uh, but but uh, mostly the irons and now these days with wedges. Yeah, I've, since 96 I did wedges with, with callowaway and and we've we've had some great ones. Oh, yeah, absolutely. But you don't know them. Say that one more time, roger, sorry, you don't know them well. So we got to get you to know them a little better because nobody spends.

Speaker 2: 10:36

The reason why I went to Callaway I had another offer and is that they really have a. Dick Helmstetter and Ely talked to me and they have a great spend and and uh, emphasis on R and D and I love that. So I wanted to put my thoughts on design with their R and D and that's where, like, the most aggressive groove is is Callaway, and and we go right up to the edge. It takes eight minutes per club, per wedge to machine the grooves and we inspect, 100% inspection. So the USGA is very specific on the rules of that and there's a number of them. We have to make sure that we're not violating it. Sure.

Speaker 1: 11:18

Absolutely. What a fun process. What a great creative fun process. It's been fun to all of us. I, I bet I you know and I'm I'm going to segue into me being kind of the student part of it. Um, you must get a lot of joy out of seeing the look on folks faces too, when you get them into a good wedge and they hit shots and it feels great and everything's great well, and and the ball stops.

Speaker 2: 11:44

Yeah, that's how did that happen, you know. But I don't do it alone. We have a tremendous R&D facility and people. We have about 140 people in that area and we, you know, we're always working there. We've been doing applying AI Everything is AI now. We've been doing it for about six, seven years, applying to the different products, especially in the woods irons now and we're starting to work on different facets of wedges and studying sound and obviously, CG placement, sole geometry and so forth. Sure.

Speaker 1: 12:23

Now, with all of that being said, I still feel as if I mean you and I have spoken about this before, raj when it? You know, today the modern landscape is speed. Okay, it's speed. You're you know, they're talking about it on the telecast every minute and when. Oh, ball speed, clubhead speed, and how these metrics relate to strokes gained and all this and that.

Speaker 1: 12:49

I still don't quite understand all of that. But one of the things that I think has really fallen by the wayside is how do you get the ball in the hole? I mean, we're trying to get the ball in the hole the least amount of times as possible. I mean, hitting it 20 yards further is definitely going to help. I'm not poo-pooing it, but I feel as if the essence of the game a little bit has been lost. And I tell people and we're going to talk about this, but I tell people, really, the fastest pathway to getting better is to go in and dedicate some time to your short game. I mean the pros, everybody, the men and women, all of the proficient players out there are expert wedge players, expert, and I don't think that's talked about enough. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 13:35

rod. Well, they it is. It isn't talked enough about. Uh, they, they hit on that because you know when somebody misses a green and and they they don't hit 18 greens, they'll miss four or five and they're hunting pins and so forth. So they have some pretty tough shots when they short side themselves and so forth. But they really work at that. They spend a good 40% of their time, if not more, in hitting different shots. And what I like to do when I'm doing some teaching and so forth, I make sure that the person I'm helping understands that they need to if they have a short game area that they can practice on, to take not a bucket of balls and put them down one spot, to take a few balls and move around. Keep moving One. It's interesting.

Speaker 2: 14:29

The other thing never have the same shot. You always have a different. Throw the ball down Bunkers too. You have to force yourself to hit different shots. Not very good shot. You know lies and so forth, uphill, downhill.

Speaker 2: 14:42

And also for everyone to take lessons in the short game. Not just take another long game lesson and those are important but take a short game lesson. Work on that, because it's the fastest way, like you said, to improve your scores and increase your enjoyment. The other thing it doesn't take. You know it takes some strength but not a lot of strength. I can't hit it 300 yards but I can have a short game pretty close to some of these guys out there, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 15:13

And the application, and it takes, you know, get a lesson and it doesn't take. You know you don't need speed. There are certain bunker shots that speed is important but you can still get out of bunkers without a bunch of speed. Yeah, absolutely. You have equipment. You have to have a sole, okay, on a wedge that's proper for you. Okay, based upon your technique and your attack angle, all right, and the conditions that you play in soft sand. You know firm sand, soft conditions, so forth. And you'll learn how to play these things if you take some lessons and apply yourself. Absolutely and have somebody give you a nice new Callaway wedge, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 15:56

You know, one of the questions that I get which is very interesting and I want to ask you directly, roger. With wedges today there's different models, there's different shapes and you know it appeals to people's eye and whatnot. But what a lot of folks don't understand is how to use the bounce. What's the bounce? What does the bounce do for wedges? You know, even good players, this is still a little bit of a blind spot. What is the bounce? How do you optimize the bounce? That is right for you and just to become aware of the subject. On a deeper, level.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Well, if you had no bounce, you would have like a leading edge. That's all you would have when you're swinging down the wedges. If you take your iron set, you know your, let's say, your five iron or four iron. If you use a four, they're longer, obviously, than your wedge. The wedge is typically 35, 35 and a half inches, so that's a lot shorter than your wedge. The wedge is typically 35, 35 and a half inches, so that's a lot shorter than your five iron. Okay, and what happens is that you get steeper as you get shorter because your ball gets closer to you. So your angle of attack is is uh, steeper. So from a, from a lie standpoint, and and uh, so when you do that, you have to have bounce that allows you to skid, hit the ball first and not be so steep as to take a giant divot. If you didn't have any bounce, just dig, okay. So what you want to do is stay, like on a plane. You want to stay, hit the ball and skid, especially in this category of the 40-yard and in shot. So you have to match the positive bounce or the bounce, the trailing edge of the sole, which is lower than your leading edge. That's like a skid plate. Okay, so you want to have that match your technique and the lie and the turf that you're playing with, so that you know for good shot making and to allow that to just skid and not dig, and that's a standard shot. Of course there's some shots where you want to hit it lower and so forth. You'll have your hands forward and you want to do some different shots, but that's where you learn some different shots. But a standard shot is you apply that sole on the ground and let it skid, and there won't be any. Some of the great players, like Spieth in the short game or Jason Day, or you know their technique as such, they'll hit 50 shots moving around on grass and they won't upset the grass at all, it'll just be hitting. And that's how you get learn how to uh. Once you do that, you learn how to apply different speed for different lengths and you get really good control by by uh, by proper technique.

Speaker 2: 18:44

Sure, and I can, we can talk about that technique. It's it's it's it's more rotation of your body that creates the speed and the length of the swing, that creates the amount of force for the shot. So you don't have a big swing and reduce, you know decelerate as you come to the ball. You want to be matched. You know you want to have rhythm and that creates rhythm when you create enough force for the shot and your follow-through matches the length of your backswing. So all those things are taught with the real good players. There's some really good stuff on youtube, uh, peter cowan is terrific, james siegman is really good, and I'm I'm not mentioning several others, I just can't remember them, but they're. That is really good and and tune on, tune into it, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1: 19:34

I tell people to tune into those guys and tell people to tune into Parker McLaughlin, the short game chef. He's great, and one of the commonalities that I hear from these great teachers is is if they have a preference in a wedge pattern, is to come in in a shallow manner. Yep, yeah, get shallow and get some width as well.

Speaker 2: 19:54

Well, a lot of people. What they do is they take their big swing, which usually has a lot of set in the wrist or cocking, and also the proper big swing technique now is to have your face, you know, perpendicular to your plane, which is actually looks closed if you don't, but it's actually perpendicular, so you just rotate through it, so you don't have a lot of stoppage at the ball. But in a short game technique, you want to, you want to put some loft on as early as you can. So you, you set up the soul or the bounce to be in a in in a. You don't have a lot of time to um, to rotate or rotate your arms to, to do this, to set, to set up a position where you're using the sole.

Speaker 2: 20:42

You got to do it right away, um, the rotation, and so you can use the sole on the shot for the, the power that you need for a shorter shot. You don't, you don't, you don't uh, present the wedge like you would, a full seven iron. You have got a the sole first and and not forward shaft lane. So you, there's it's not easy to describe, but you, you have to, uh, you don't want to have forward shaft lane One. It takes the bounce off, de-lofts it and you know you're going to be steeper when you're doing that usually so very shallow and, like you said, a shallow attack angle with loft.

Speaker 1: 21:23

Yeah, that makes absolute sense, Roger, one of the things that I but it's a different technique than your.

Speaker 2: 21:33

Big swing is the point, and it's a lot of rotation of your arms which creates more loft right away, because you don't have. You know, you don't need a lot of force for the shot, but you got to position the club correctly to come into the ball. That's a better way of saying it.

Speaker 1: 21:50

Yeah and that's very well said. And another thing too, about the bounce like I was thinking of the scenario where you have the grain growing against the ball. When you mentioned, I thought about TC Chen in 85 at Oakland Hills when he double hit it and I think he had a pretty nasty lie there.

Speaker 2: 22:09

That was in heavy rough right near the green. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:13

And even if you're in heavy rough or the grass is growing against the ball, against the grain, what were you going to say?

Speaker 2: 22:23

Morikawa in Hawaii when he kind of had some issues coming in but coming in, but he had, he had. You know there's grain, huge grain, you know, coming off those elevated greens and he right into it. And one of the things you do is you, you, you. You take that law, highest lofted wedge, okay, which has not as much bounce as your sand iron. Typically your sand has. I don't know more bounce it can be bounce which is going to skid more, ok, you don't. And also, when you lean into the hill like that, into into the grain, you're delofting and promoting forward shaft and you have to get pretty perpendicular to your lie. Same thing in a bunker, you have to do the same thing in a bunker, so you can use that soul. So those are techniques that you learn by taking a lesson. But if you take a little less loft, okay, got his body more perpendicular, he would have had better success. You also don't have to swing as hard.

Speaker 1: 23:28

Yeah, that makes absolute sense and you know in my game I'm going to say I've got a competitor wedge. Sorry, but it's 58 degrees and the bounce is such where I like to have a little bit more meat in the back end. Here playing on the Monterey Peninsula, as you know, there's the rough is a little bit thicker, it's a more humid environment, Ground is softer, so I actually use that bounce to save me quite a bit because I don't like to have my hands ahead. So if it's a nervy little shot and it's at a heavy rough or the grain is growing against, actually use the bounce to help me. I know that you know what I mean, but explain that.

Speaker 2: 24:17

Well, the leading edge has a very, very tight radius, so you don't want to enter the turf with that leading edge Right. Do that on fuller shots, because your hands are forward, shaft lean, your hands are ahead of the ball, you're contacting the ball first, but when you're around shorter shots and when you're you're you're trying to hit it 20 yards, okay, you're, you're shaft lean. Yeah, I mean you should have zero, very little shaft lean Right. So spending as much on the sole, so you're allowing it to skid under the ball. So you have loft, okay, you have the benefit of the sole, so it will skid and you have better success that way.

Speaker 1: 24:55

I mean just basically with what you just.

Speaker 2: 24:58

Bunker shot Same way. In a bunker you got to use that sole and the bounce and the ball will come out.

Speaker 1: 25:04

That's right. A lot of people don't know this, this simple explanation. A lot of people don't know this, which is sad. I mean they know how to swing the golf club hard, but when it comes to some of the finer points and the nuances of the game that help you get the ball in the hole in the least amount of times, unfortunately this conversation isn't mainstream, and I think it should be. Um, you know knowing this.

Speaker 1: 25:29

For me personally, rogers revolutionized my short game. I went from a a very mediocre wedge player inside of, let's say, 80 yards to having that be a primary asset of my game. You know, from from a 10 yard chip to an 80 yard shot, depending on what kind of shot, the call, the, the, whatever the golf course is telling me what to do, whatever the shot calls for, but the finer points of this, understanding and using the bounce, and then you know segwaying into the next thing getting fitted for wedges. Having a having a professional help you through that process. Let's talk about that for a minute, because I tell people to do that now. Hey, go get a wedge lesson, go get fitted for your wedges. You're leaving shots out there because you're playing the wrong stuff and you have the wrong technical mindset behind it.

Speaker 2: 26:21

Well, again, people miniaturize their big swing and it's a different technique that these guys use to activate the sole. You're not hitting the ball first. That's the primary thought process. If you are, you're going to be delofting. You're taking bounce off when you move the shaft forward. It's a one-to-one ratio and you're not going to get the ball elevated to the loft that you want for the shot. And when you are trying to create some spin let's say you want to have more loft so you can do that and hit it the distance that's required let's say a 20-yard shot or a 15-yard shot you want to have some spin so it stops in different circumstances. So you have to learn that technique where you create loft at the beginning and you hold it.

Speaker 2: 27:22

And if you use your big technique, your big swing, you're going to typically use a lot more wrists and so when you use wrists on that particular shot, you got to unhinge that before you get to the ball.

Speaker 2: 27:35

Therefore, you're going to be a little steeper typically okay and you're going to be slowing your body down and in the and your position or the arc of your swing has more of a chance of not being correct when you're doing that. When you're, you're dumping, your, your, you got to dump the club to get under the ball and that typically, you stop your body and you, you, the arc is is changing when you do that. It's not so consistent when you, when you have less set and you're shallower, have a shallower attack angle, your arc stays more consistent because your body is rotating and your body pulls the speed. And that arc stays more constant when you're using your body rather than stopping your body, and that's what the, the, the technique that is really popular and being used by all these guys, um, you know, is that's why it's so successful and that's what I think, what the you know, the, uh, the guys that you mentioned, the you know, siekman and cowan and myself that's what we, we try to emphasize.

Speaker 1: 28:44

Yeah absolutely uh, I mean, it's less, it's really less moving parts. Yeah, you know, as you said, you're not, you're not setting the risk, you're not. Uh, you, uh, that, you really uh, you would point people to look at them because there any player on any of the tours that you would say man, that person, person, really exemplifies what we're talking about.

Speaker 2: 29:05

Well, I mentioned some names. Stricker is incredible, you know, the guys that are, I mean they take, you got to practice so. And the other, you know, I mean there's Jason Day. There's so many that have good short games. I mean Justin Thomas has a good short game, really good. But they're wide, okay, they're not stop, they rotate, wow.

Speaker 2: 29:36

So the advice that I would leave you with guys, go take a lesson, get good equipment. We have lots of options for you, okay. And you know, get fit. You know, make sure that you know you want a 60 versus a 58. Maybe you can't hit the 60 far enough, so go to a 58. We have the same sole geometries on the 58 and 60. And that is based upon whether you can hit a far note and you want to hit your lob wedge. I don't like to force a 100% speed on a lob wedge. It's such an oblique angle, that loft is so extreme that you're not going to hit it very consistently, and so a three-quarter shot there is kind of max to me, and then you move down with either four or five degree increments down through to match your pitching wedge. And pitching wedge is at least stayed up at either 58 or 60. Okay.

Speaker 1: 30:32

It makes sense. Roger, if I'm going to start this process and I want to get Callaway wedges, how would I start? Can I go on a website and look at the different bounces, the different bounce profiles?

Speaker 2: 30:47

All registered there and the techniques that we have, some that have higher bounces. We have wide like sure outs. We have a new CB wedge. It was a cavity back wedge. That's brilliant.

Speaker 2: 31:02

If I don't say so myself, it is for a person who really has issues with with those shots. You got to try this, okay, because you don't have to be perfect, and that's the thing. People think. They have to be perfect around the grain and you can. If with proper technique, you can hit behind the ball and still hit a very good shot, and that's what you're doing, oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 31:26

And and with the, with the soul, that's uh fit for you here. It takes a you know a lot of that precision and and fear away from you. You can still have, you know, very good results with, uh, with not a perfect strike, if you have a good, good soul on it. So those are on the website, okay. And then fit go down either to 54 or 56, based upon where how high your lob wedge is, and uh, gap them in fours or fives. These are bent. Everybody can do that, okay and um, so that's part of the fitting process. And shafts gotta get a shaft. That's right for you. If you're old, fossil like me, you might. You might want to consider something a little lighter, okay, so you can create some speed. It probably will match your iron set, okay, but you kind of want to want to have enough weight. That creates some resistance, especially in your lob wedge, because you want to swing sometimes. I agree A hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 32:31

It's interesting, roger, as I've kind of gone through and revolutionized my short game. I've actually gone with my wedges a little bit heavier, a little bit more increase in feel, and for me it's better distance control. Yeah, Good, I've got a lot heavier, so it's been good. It's been good. I'm a big fan, big fan of wedges, I'm a big fan of the short game and I'm a big fan of you, sir, always have been, and, uh, thank you, pleasure to be with you. Yeah, likewise, roger, I hope we can get you on again at some point. Um, because, uh, what are you doing tomorrow? I want to play some golf with you, my man, one of these days we're playing golf. But, roger, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it a lot and thanks for donating your time. I know you're pretty busy. Absolutely, you be well, you do, thank you.