125. From Adversity to Influence: Redefining Women's Leadership

What if the toughest challenges you face are the key to your leadership growth? Adversity has a unique way of shaping the strongest leaders, proving that the hardest times often lead to the most remarkable victories.

In this episode of the Leading with Power & Purpose Podcast, Sabine sits down with Erin Sumner, who shares her transformative journey through the Meta layoffs of November 2022. Balancing the whirlwind of raising Irish twins with leading HR at the innovative startup Delete Me, Erin's story highlights the power of resilience and the critical role of a supportive network and role models in building leadership confidence.

Listen in to learn how combining self-confidence with empathy can significantly boost your leadership effectiveness and foster stronger connections with your team. You will also learn about the importance of creating and maintaining supportive networks for personal and professional growth.

Key Takeaways: 

• How resilience through tough times can transform you into a stronger, more effective leader
• How having a diverse group of mentors can aid in your professional development and help you navigate complex leadership challenges.
• The benefits of integrating practices like meditation, journaling, and exercise into your daily routine to enhance overall leadership effectiveness.
• The significance of women creating opportunities for fellow women to drive collective success and leadership advancement.

What You Will Learn in This Episode: 

• [01:44] A transformative experience during the Meta layoffs of November 2022 and its impact on resilience.
• [02:38] The journey to Meta, early career challenges, managing a global team during COVID, and the impact of the layoffs.
• [13:46] How power, authority, and influence are manifested in leadership roles.
• [18:58] The importance of building a supportive network and having role models who reflect positive beliefs and confidence.
• [26:09] The benefits of daily meditation and journaling practices for maintaining focus and mental grounding.
• [28:44] The role of mentorship in professional growth and the value of having multiple mentors with diverse perspectives.
• [35:37] Strategies for women to create opportunities for each other and foster support rather than competition.
• [38:30] The significance of creating opportunities and recognizing others, even if outcomes are uncertain.

Connect with Erin:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinssumner/ 
• Website: https://joindeleteme.com/ 
• DeleteMe Discount - ERINFIFTY to receive 50% off 12 months of DeleteMe

Books Recommendations:

• Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
• The Last Lecture by Randy Pausch

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HOST INFO:

Sabine Gedeon is a dynamic force in the world of leadership and personal development. As the Founder of Transformed Leadership Institute and CEO of Gedeon Enterprises, Sabine leverages nearly 20 years of experience to guide clients in both startups and Fortune 500 companies. Her unique approach combines human-centered principles with tech-enabled solutions, delivering customized programs for leaders at all levels to tackle crucial leadership and talent development challenges.

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ADDITIONAL SUPPORT:

Download Free Resources - https://sabinegedeon/gifts
Get Coaching Support: https://meetwithsabine.as.me/Discovery

Transcript

0:00

Are you tired of playing small and ready to step confidently into your greatness and share your unique brilliance with the world? Well, you're in the right place. I'm your host Sabine Gideon, and I've dedicated nearly two decades empowering individuals and leaders as they confidently navigate the twists and turns of life and career transitions. If you're seeking direction, connection, or just a little push to play bigger, consider this podcast, your VIP path to a community that genuinely understands your journey. Join me every week for candid conversations and practical guidance designed to help you navigate the challenges of life and business, foster a growth mindset, and cultivate meaningful connections. It's time to embrace your inherent power, define your unique purpose, and prosper in every aspect of your life. Let's get started.

Sabine: 0:55

Hello and welcome to another episode. I'm your host, Sabine Gideon. Thank you so much for joining this week. And of course we have another amazing female powerhouse that we're going to have the conversation with around the relationship with power. And so today's guest is Aaron Sumner. Aaron is a mother of Irish twins juggling the beautiful chaos of parenthood while spearheading the HR efforts at a dynamic startup named delete me. Her journey took an unexpected turn when she found herself at the heart of a transformative experience, a part of the initial wave of layoffs at Metta in November of 2022. This pivotal moment shaped her resilience and reinforced her commitment to championing individuals rights in the digital realm with that, welcome to the show, Aaron.

Erin: 1:44

Thanks Sabine. Really excited to be here. Thank you for having me on the show, as you mentioned, seen a lot of growth over the last year. So sitting here about a year, a little over a year after the initial shock of being a part of my first layoff ever, having learned a lot and. Got an opportunity to lean on the shoulders of some incredible women that helped me get to where I am. So I'm really excited to be here today. Thank you for having

Sabine: 2:13

me. Absolutely. I'm excited to, to hear about this transformative experience, but before we get into that, you know, obviously, you know, working at, at Metta is huge. Uh, but I, I know that that was a journey that, that took you there. So if you could share with us some of Key career catalysts or milestones that you experienced that led you up until that layoff in November, 2022.

Erin: 2:37

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, the, the cliche of no one's career path is linear. You hear it and you never think it's true. And then you experience it and you're like, Oh, they actually do know something. Um, I was incredibly fortunate. I graduated from North Carolina State University. Go Wolfpack! I won't say what year, um, but I knew very early on that working with people was my passion and it, what gave it's what gave me energy. So human resources was natural. I took accounting. It did not go well. Math is not for me. We actually have a joke on my team that Aaron math gives you two kids in 13 months. So don't do it. But so I got the chance to have a couple internships. throughout my college career that were specifically within the HR realm and gave me a taste of a lot of different things. And the first catalyst was I was given the opportunity to fly out and live in San Diego as a 21 year old and help run their entire internship program, um, which was about 500 CS. Um, hardware engineers, CS meaning computer science, apologies. So software, hardware engineers, business, human resources, um, all gathered in San Diego. Didn't even know that was a job, right? So when you're asked when you're little, what do you want to be when you grow up? Being a campus recruiter wasn't even an option that existed in my head. Um, got the opportunity to do that into my senior year. graduated, worked with them several times, and that's when Facebook called the first time. So I was engaged to my now husband, uh, but we were engaged at the time, got the call from Facebook for the opportunity. We had to move across the country, um, and my husband was orig is originally from Michigan, so we got married. Didn't tell our family until we got back from the honeymoon, packed up our house two weeks later, um, and shipped out to San Francisco to live for a few years. Facebook. Cause it was Facebook and will always be Facebook to me. The first time it was drinking from a fire hose at a tempo, which I'd never really experienced before. And that I like it very much to the startup style. Um, and I think a lot of people from that time, which was. Mid 2010s, um, would say the same thing. You're creating processes, you're building, you're learning as you go. Worked with the smartest people. Um, I'll never forget finishing the interview and getting on the plane to come back home and just thinking my brain hurts, and it was the first time that my brain had ever. actually hurt from thinking through things. And that was my, I wanted, I want to do more of this, right? Um, fast forward a few years, loved Facebook, was amazing, but we decided to grow our family. And as anyone who has been in the Bay Area, can attest to sitting in traffic, cost of living, um, just unsustainable and not really what I wanted for my family. So we moved back home to Charlotte, North Carolina, which is where I'm originally from. I was given the opportunity To lead up a campus recruitment program and a couple of other companies at that point in time, um, in addition to having my daughter 12 months after that. Um, but so during that time that I was leading these couple of other kind of new grad intern programs, COVID hit and My husband had started his own company six months prior to that, meaning that the income was mine, the benefits were mine, and there was a global pandemic happening. He was not in the house, um, because his job was, is to build patios and landscapes, so he was working outside. I was managing a global team at this time. It was not. It was not easy to say the least and I would say that that is the, that's where I learned my, my leadership skills that I truly I am most proud of. It's my empathy. It was very, very challenging for me. I did not feel as though I had the support. Um, there were a couple of things said throughout the organization, a couple of different organizations that I was working with from people who were just quit your job and become a stay at home mom. Like that's what you should do. Or. If it's this hard, like you should, you should have chosen not to have kids. And it's like, okay, like none of that's helpful. Right? Like none of that is actually helping. And it was primarily from men, but there were women with the same and it. It actually spurred something in me and I, I read or heard it and someone will correct me on who said this, but I have it as a sticky note on my monitor here and it says, will you be proud of your silence. And so that is something that in my head I'm consistently going back to whether it be my leadership, my company, whatever it is, it's Hey, can you look at yourself and be proud of the fact that you stayed silent during this. Um, and as women, right. It's easy to stay silent. Um, it's, it's encouraged oftentimes to stay silent. And so That was pivotal for me. Um, and as you can see, right, it's not always linear. It's not always, hey, things are going exactly as I want. And that's what I learned. I've learned the most from the hardest times, which sucks, right? Like you have to go through this shit to get through the other side. Um, so coming out of COVID. And, and that experience, um, one of my previous managers reached out from Facebook, you know, we're building this team, we're scaling, you can work remote, right? Like, would love to have you back, jumped at the opportunity and we scaled the team from seven people to 63 in a man, in a time frame of about six months. Um, and then we spent about seven to eight months in limbo as a, as a company. Um, we shut down kind of all the hiring. didn't do a lot, um, found ways to kind of keep ourselves busy through the turmoil of what was going on. And leaned on one another. So November 9th, 2022, there had been a couple of leaks to the press, um, right. Of, Oh, Facebook's going to do Metta's going to do layoffs in this state or that day, and they'd all been untrue up until that point in time. Um, but I, I think the Washington post leaked it. And for some reason we all were like. If they're reporting it, it's more than likely true. And so it, the, the emails were sent out around 6 a. m. whatever time zone you were in. And so there were a few of us who were on the East Coast and we knew we were, you know, very, very high performers. And so 555, you know, wake up and you get the email. We've made the tough decision. And immediately there was a group of about Six women. Um, we still to this day have this same group. We kept in touch. It's what are you thankful for today? And it can't be cliche, right? It can't be, oh, I'm thankful for you. I'm thankful for my kids. Like, what are you? And some days it was, you know what? I'm really thankful that I got a workout in today, right? That was the win for the day, but it taught me that. You're always going to be a number to some standpoint, right? It is what it is. But, and I, I'm, I'm a person who gives all and whatever I do, but the relationships that you build out of stuff like that, and I call them somewhat traumatic experiences because they are traumatic, right? I've got an entire family that depends on me for a lot of different things. Um, it was a catalyst that made me angry. Honestly, but it was definitely a catalyst that made me evaluate in my next role what was important. Um, and so when Delete Me reached out, it was the opportunity to build something. But more than that, the founder The reasoning behind the company is it's the right thing to do. People deserve their personal information, right? So, so one of the things that someone said, and this is kind of where I'll leave it is When you have a bad day, remember you're fighting for the good guys. Um, and that one that, that I actually read it on my whiteboard behind me. And it's something I look at every day.

Sabine: 11:35

That's awesome. Wow. What a, what a journey. And, and, you know, certainly it sounds like you are, uh, you went from one environment to the complete opposite. And I almost wonder if, you know, oftentimes we don't see it until hindsight, right. That a lot of the earlier experiences were really just training or setting us up or putting us in that mindset that we needed to be for that next opportunity. And so today at delete me, tell us a little bit about, you know, what your role is, how you're making an impact, um, as, as a senior leader there.

Erin: 12:13

I have the best job. I get to lead up all of the people and culture at Delete Me. So I, we, as a company, have grown incredibly. And what I help do is really help foster the talent management, the culture and engagement of our employees and set things in place. So. One of the things I'm most proud of, we have a WIP. It's called Women in Privacy Group. So we get together once a month. We've done a couple book clubs. We did terrarium building last week, but we also support one another. Um, we've gone through some promotions recently and seeing the women in there just kind of shout one another up and, and really have the chance to build one another up with something we didn't have before, which I love being a part of.

Sabine: 12:59

Thinking about, you know, this series with regards to supporting women and, and helping us to redefine, uh, what it is to be powerful, redefine what it means to be a leader, what it means to be impactful and influential. Um, I'm, I'm curious because I know you have some thoughts, um, as you think about, our relationship with power. I've been asking guests to, you know, help me dissect from their point of view, how they interpret or define power. Authority and influence and how that shows up in their life today or what their earlier experiences were with each. So I'm curious for you, you know, how would you define those three and how do they show up for

Erin: 13:45

you? I love these power, authority, and influence, which huge three words, um, have such an implication on so many things. Power. I equate very much to confidence. So I, I have jokingly say this and Sabine, you might need to cut this, but sometimes I'm like, you need the confidence of a mediocre white man when he goes in and ask for a raise. Right? Like if everyone could have that, we'd all be way better off, but it's, it's knowing it's having confidence in who you are, gives you power. One of the pieces of feedback that I am most proud of that I receive, and I love sports, so I do lean into sports analogies, but I punch above my weight class, meaning I very much respect the position you're in, but I also respect the knowledge and the information that I have, and I will push back where it's needed. And my CEO and I have a very good relationship where we push and pull each other a lot. I have that with my entire executive team. I force that with my entire team, right? It's, hey, I don't expect you to agree with everything. If we are, then like, I have not done a good job of hiring. Diversity on my team right like that's not a win for me. I need you to push back. And so that's what I think power relates to authority so I'm going to, I'm going to pull out a quote here. It's a Game of Thrones reference so there's a point. Which King, not King, it was King Joffrey at the time, but he makes the exclamation that I am king and his grandfather Tywin Lannister then says, it's not going to be a direct quote, but something to the effect of anyone who is truly a king does not need to proclaim it. That's what I believe authority is right. It is having people. understand that you don't have to stand up and say something, but they know by your, your character and their relationship that you're making the decisions in the way that align with what's best for the company for whatever decision that you're making. And that's where the authority comes, comes from. One of the mistakes I made early in my career was just thinking being good at your job, right? Like that gives you authority and that's, that's not it. It takes time. And we, we go from being the smartest, right? Like, okay, yes, overachievers and, you know, elementary, middle, high school, you to college related job. And you're used to always being the best. You're not the best. You shouldn't be the best in the next room. So the, the. The humbleness of that took me some years to learn. Um, but it's, it was, I have a mentor, um, and he works with me a lot. And he came into my life about 10 years ago, so a little, little less than a decade. And he says to me all the time, he's like, the authority is, it's not something that you claim. It's just something that happens. Um, so that's, that's how I view authority. And then influence is just, it takes time. It's I, we, we're going over rewards and recognition, right, for our entire company. And we've, we've talked about this in a couple of other women's groups that I have, but it's. If it's not a natural, organic thing for you to praise someone, especially in the position of leadership, why would you expect anyone on your team to do so? And you can point to any study, any research, right? Like, those natural little things, those mean the most to people, right? It's, hey, I know your dog died last week, like let me send you a bouquet of flowers or chocolates or whatever it is, and it's really just, and again, it just, it takes the time and the care to show more, and that you do know what you're doing and that your perspective might be different, but you're still working towards the common theme.

Sabine: 17:53

Um, one of the things that I appreciated and when you started off with power is relating it to confidence, right? And that's another one where, you know, we all want to be confident, but everyone has their definition of what confidence is, what it looks like. Uh, is it a feeling, is it a knowing, is it all these. And even as you were defining power and you were defining the, the, the, it's relationship to confidence. It was very clear to me that, that, that you were confident in your power, that you are confident in knowing who you are, what you bring to the table. And we know, you know, we know the truth that not everyone has that, or not everyone is able to tap into that. So I'm curious if you can think back to, you know, earlier experiences or just, you know, life in general. What has helped you, what has specifically supported you in anchoring in your own power and in your own confidence and being able to, you know, emanate that so effortlessly.

Erin: 18:57

That's a very, very kind compliment. Thank you. Um, I, I've, again, I, I've been incredibly lucky. I, I grew up in my mom, um, who is a executive. President, vice president, bank of America has been there for 37 years. She, she doesn't take shit from anyone. Right. And it's never been one of those things where it is because I'm a woman. It's just that I know what I'm talking about. Um, and again, there was a part of me who took that when I was like 13 and I was like, I'm the exact same, I know it all. No one talked to me. So when my daughter hits that age, um, I'm going to be hiding in a cave just so everyone's aware, uh, cause I'm expecting it to come back. Um, but I was really lucky to have her as kind of a guide post. And then I was really fortunate in that the people that I've surrounded myself with, and again, there will be people who will come and go in your lives and are there for moments and chapters and not the whole books, but I, I focus on people who bring me good energy and help uplift me. I have this saying, I hate playing the suffering Olympics, right? Um, I'm not in it to see how bad people's lives are, right? I went through COVID, it sucked, it was terrible, we don't need to do that. Um, let's build one another up and let's lift one another up. And I've been very intentional about that in all of my relationships. Um, my partner and I... He, I travel quite a bit for work now and people will joke, they're like, Oh, dad's babysitting. My husband is wanting to say like, no, I'm parenting, right? Like this is what a partnership is. And he even helps me, you know, I'll call him and I'll be like, ah, I got this piece of feedback. I don't love it. Like, can you talk me through it? And he helps me remember, like, you're always going to have more to learn, but there's also like, you know what you're doing and like, here's the proof that you know what you're doing. And then I lean on the women that again, I just, we have this group and there are days where I will text them and I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm an idiot. Someone help me. And inevitably, right? All of them will call or text and we'll, you know, we'll get back together and build ourselves up again. But I think we have such. Women are incredible, right? I, it, it bothers me that we think that so many women think so little of themselves and that they don't know who they are or have that confidence. And I want my daughter. And my nieces and my nephews and all the Children are all right to grow up with that same level of confidence to say, I like who I am. It may be different, but like it's me. That's what I want for my kids and all the kids. Yeah.

Sabine: 22:04

Thank you for sharing that. And so I, what I'm gathering from that is you had a very, very strong role model, uh, growing up. So you, you got to witness someone who was standing in their own power, someone who was standing in their own confidence. And, you know, as, as little kids were absorbing everything, right. And we, we will model our, our parents, whether we want to or not, um, the bad, the good and the bad. You're right. And so, yeah. Because you had those earlier experiences, it sounds like you've been able to carry that. And not only that, You've attracted people or you've sought out people who mirror that back to you or who project that back to you and who help support you in maintaining that and I think that that's a huge piece for us, especially as women, regardless of what our earlier experiences are right you know that that saying that we are the sum of the five people that we hang out the most I think it needs to be a little bit more than five. Um, but you know it that's true and so. This is an opportunity for you, for those of you who are listening, you know, to, you know, not look at your friend circle or your family and be like, Oh no, I got to cut you all off. I need to cut some people off. Yeah. Let's not do that, but really examine are the people around you. Reflecting back to you what you believe about yourself and if that answer is yes, right, whatever, whatever side it falls on, is that what you want mirrored? Like, is that actually who you believe yourself to be or who you want yourself to show up in the world? Um, you know, so much of what we talk about here. Yes, we're talking about career growth. We're talking about success. We're talking about all these things, but if you've listened to the theme in this. Series like these women are doing actual work that can't be seen. It has nothing to do with their social economic status. It's about them recognizing that who I am. Is the core of whatever I bring to the table, whatever role or seat that I'm sitting in. And if I'm not right within myself, then I can't be effective outwardly. So, you know, Aaron, thank you for sharing that. And I hope, you know, that, that public service announcement

Erin: 24:18

has an important one. It is such an important

Sabine: 24:20

one. Absolutely. And so, you know, along those lines, cause I'm, I'm a big. Proponent of creating community. Um, and that's not just, you know, friend groups and people to hang out with. So that's all great and all, but you know, when you think about creating community back in the day, uh, where, you know, they used to say it takes a village to raise a child. I grew up poor as we were in an environment where, you know, everyone who lived around me, like everyone, everyone had my back. Right. So, you know, I could easily stay at my neighbors or I could watch their kids and. I grew up in environments where community was huge as we grow up as adults, right. And we start lifing and we start adulting. Our community gets smaller and smaller and smaller, and it becomes, you know, the people in our household or the people who are at our jobs. And we use them based on, you know, whatever that environment is. But I think that there is a, there is a missed opportunity here where. We, you know, we're not being as intentional of, okay. Yes. I have my family unit. Yes. I have my work unit. Yes. I have these pockets, but when I look at my circle, right, the people who support me, the people who uplift me creating that. And so it sounds like through this whole meta process or Facebook process, you had already begun creating that and you've maintained that. So I'm curious, you know, as you think about. Yeah. The support group. And you, you mentioned before, um, you know, the daily gratitude, talk to us a little bit about what are some of the day to day things that you've implemented in your life and in your world to help you maintain, to help you stay at that high vibration, so to speak, where you are showing up confident and in your power and in your authority.

Erin: 26:06

There are a couple of things that are incredibly important to me. Um, so I'm a global company. We work globally when my kids are home. They are mine. I am theirs. No one else gets my time with a few rare exceptions. Um, right. If my CEO calls me like, okay, you can, you can maybe have 10 minutes. Um, but that part, my team knows the company knows, and that keeps me grounded. Um, nothing like a five year old telling you that you didn't get the right color popsicles to make sure that you were grounded back to earth. It doesn't matter what you did that day. Um, so that's one. I meditate every day, um, huge shout out to the Peloton app. I use it religiously. Um, and I've actually started doing some journaling on, Hey, here's. Here are thoughts that I have and here's what I want to work through and focus on and I work out every day. Um, it keeps me sane. It keeps me from losing my mind. And honestly, when I work out, I solve a lot of the problems in my head because I can get out of thinking from everything else. And I'm not on a phone call or a Zoom call or whatever it is. So, so those things help keep me grounded. And I. I at least once a week try to practice gratitude in some way, shape, or form. Um, it's actually another sticky note right here that says practice gratitude. And so sometimes that's reaching out to my team and saying, Hey, I appreciate you. Here's a Starbucks gift card, or we do Lulu because we love Lulu lemon. So we'll send you that. Um, but it's some way, shape, or form just to know that. I wouldn't be here. Right. If it weren't for a lot of these different people. Um, and I am incredibly fortunate to be where I am. And I don't want to take that for granted because there's a lot of bad shit that goes on in the world. And I'm, I'm very, very lucky where I'm at.

Sabine: 28:02

Thank you for sharing that. And so one of the other things that you mentioned earlier on was around mentorship and that you have a mentor Um, there's, Always been mentorship available to women, but that mentorship, as we know, doesn't always necessarily translate into, um, you know, being elevated into high level roles or women getting the visibility that they need to be able to advance in their careers in the capacity that they that they want or need to. So I'm curious, you know, in terms of this mentorship relationship, um, Uh, is this something that you sought out specifically? How has this helped you or supported you in your growth? And what advice would you give to women who, you know, they don't have a mentor, maybe they have a mentor or mentors, but it's not really helping to support their actual goals.

Erin: 28:53

Yeah, um, and I actually have a couple mentors. So, um, the one I was speaking about is a man, but I have several mentors that I lean on. He is probably the one that I meet with the most simply because he knows me incredibly well. I sought him out. We. Clicked pretty instantly at a place that we worked previously, uh, and his mentorship style and management style was very aligned to the way that I enjoy to be mentored and managed. And so there were a lot of natural synergies and our children are the same ages and go to the same school. And his wife is amazing and. Every kind of mom that I wish I could be. She is. So we compliment each other very well. Um, so that's that relationship, but I've also sought out women mentors because there is a perspective and an experience that men don't have from women in a leadership role. And I think that's a really important call out because. Meshack is actually a black man, but he and I will even talk through like the experience that I have are very different than the experiences that you've had, like, no one's ever told me, like, he, he and I were having a conversation and he said, no one's ever told me like, Hey, the men are talking. That's been said to me, right? Like, and those are different kinds of challenges. And so I think it's important that a people have more than one mentor, right? Like, having as many different perspectives from people that you trust and you have a relationship with. Um, I have about three that I lean on pretty steadily for different aspects of my life and my career, but it's important to have someone that is similar to you as well so that you can work through some of those similar challenges and similar threats, but then having people different than you so that you can see their perspectives and see how that might be come across or ways that you can work better with others. So A, find a mentor. It is something that can happen organically. Sometimes they're forced and they don't always work out and people get really frustrated when things don't work the first time. Oh, I tried it. I tried it and it didn't work for me. It's like, okay, well you tried it once. It's like trying therapy once. Like, yeah, you're not going to find the right person the first time. It's going to take a couple of different iterations. So being patient with it and having an outcome of what you want to get out of the mentorship. For me, I knew I wanted to be an executive. I knew that I wanted to drive scale and change, and that was important to me. And so those are the themes that I go into my conversation with, as well as they look back at, here's what I was focused on. How do I need to modify that? What behaviors do I need to modify? How do I help bring others in? Having the framework of, hey, here's what we're going to talk about with your mentor helps set them up to help you be successful. And I think that's the piece that a lot of people miss. They show up and they're like, mentor me. And it's like, Okay, say more, right? Like, tell me more. Um, and people, I think that's where people get a little tripped up. Yeah,

Sabine: 32:07

I totally agree. I, I, I have this, um, training that I do around building your success circle. And it's around, you know, finding your mentors, uh, peers, your manager, sponsor, you name it. Um, but. You know, most people will, especially if it's like an organic relationship where they might know someone and they go to them for mentorship, that person may not even know that that's the expectation that you have of them or what specific goals they can help support you. So it's important to, once you've identified someone as a potential mentor or sponsor or whatever, that you're also telling them, this is how and where I need your support. Um, and this is how I need you to help me. Um, so thank you for sharing that. And then I guess on the flip side, before we go into the blitz session here, I was having a conversation, um, with a senior level, uh, person not too long ago. And we were talking about, you know, around power, authority, and influence and how. There's a gap between those who make it to the executive level and those who aren't and how do we actually close that gap and she gave me an example of, uh, being at a conference and someone had asked this senior level executive the question and the lady was going on about, you know, you got to pay attention to the way that you dress and, you know, you got to fit the par and all these things, right? It was very Yeah. Superficial. And she was telling me how, you know, it really didn't serve her. And it, you know, it's when you hear these things of like, how did you get to the top? And it has nothing to do with, or not that it doesn't have anything to do with it, but it doesn't, it doesn't give you a roadmap. The thing that I challenged her with, or I invited her to look at it differently. Well, maybe she's at the top and still doesn't even believe that she belongs there. Maybe the reason why she wasn't able to give you Concrete examples of things to do or things that you felt were actionable was because in her own mind, she felt like, Oh yeah, I, I just got here and I'm just, I'm just happy to be here. And so I share all that because it sounds like, you know, not only have you been able to rise to the top and supported others to do it. That piece about, you know, sending the ladder back down. Um, I think that that's a, that's a place where more and more women who are sitting in those executive seats, you have an accountability. And I think that goes back to that silence thing that you were talking about. Um, this is not about, you know, putting people on your back while you're climbing. This is about when you get to the top. Looking back and saying, okay, here's this. Here's, here's the ladder. Here's I I've climbed. I've scraped. I've done all the smashed

Erin: 34:50

the ceiling. Let's bring everyone

Sabine: 34:52

up. Yeah. And so I'm curious, you know, how are you, how are you able to do that? Because it's not common. Uh, we don't see that modeled very often. And I don't believe Let me just preface this. I don't believe it's because that when women get to the top, they don't want to help. I don't believe that at all. Um, I think they're still because of the battle that they fall on the way to the top. They may still be dealing with some things and adjusting to their new environment. So I'm curious, how have you been able to, you know, as you risen, like, okay, here's another rung. Here's another rung. To the point where now you said in India, like it's half women, your executive team or your leadership team, um, you are creating that space, that environment, and that culture.

Erin: 35:37

I love this question because it's one of my like. Biggest qualms, right? It's the we bust the ceiling, but then like there's still just not enough women up here with us. How do we shatter the whole damn thing for me? It's providing those opportunities. And I say as many women's names in as many different rooms as I possibly can. I've taken the time to try and really get to know it. The women, all the women in the organization, but specifically those that have come to me and they're like, I want to do more. Right. Like, how do we do more? How do we get more involved and really proactively just saying their names? It felt like when we were growing up, everyone was pitted against one another as women. Right. It was, you know, Brittany versus Christina. Right. Like the whole, the whole nine. Um, and. I just hate it. Like women don't have to be that way. And I don't know why we are. And to your point, I don't think it's everyone. And I think it, a lot of it is a symptom of I'm up here. I don't want to rock the boat. I'm scared to rock the boat because what if I lose my position? Um, and that's a scary place to be in. And I hate that it's dependent a bit upon the men that you're also are allies to you. But I hold them accountable. Um, and I hold them accountable in every single interview process that we have in every single conversation that we've had. It's what, what women's perspective have you considered for this? It's not enough. It, I, it will never be enough. And I, I always feel like there is more I need to be doing, but Speaking people's names in rooms and making sure that they are highlighted for every opportunity. That's going to be the biggest win and that's women have to support women. It's just got to be 1 of those things where we stop competing against 1 another and thinking, well, there can only be 1 woman up there or 1, 1, 1 of what it is. And I'll give you an example. We had an executive off site a couple of months ago. And I took the notes. Because of course I did. Right. Like I took the notes. And after that meeting, one of one of the peers on the team, he pulled me inside and he was like, don't you dare do that. He's like, you are setting yourself back. How dare you volunteer to do that? That's what you need. Right? Like, like, that's, that's the allyship that you need and that you have to create for other women too.

Sabine: 38:10

Ooh, I love that. I love that. He, he recognized that and he is right. I was like, Oh, you're right. You're so right. Yeah. And it's the thing we complain about, right? It's the, Oh my gosh, I'm always the one to take the notes. Well, why'd you volunteer ma'am? Yes. So a couple of things that I want to highlight that you shared here, and we'll go into the is that, you know, asking the question, have you considered a woman's perspective? Oh, my gosh. If that is, I mean, that is non threatening. Allows people to be introspective that now I'm going to have to sit here and, and ask, uh, my, my clients that question as well, but that is such a powerful question. And you can insert anything into that, right? You know, a woman's perspective, um, uh, someone from a diverse background, um, It's almost like we can't change our behavior and our patterns of thinking unless there is an intentional pattern interrupt. And something like that will, I, I can't imagine that it hasn't caused people to be like, huh, you're right. I haven't, let me look into this. Um, and I think if more of us did that, even in our personal lives, right, um, if more of us looked at it from a place of curiosity of have I considered diverse opinions or different backgrounds or different experiences within this decision, um, I think if we operated from that space, then, then we would see. Major changes in the society. Um, and then the other thing that you said was speaking other women's names in every room that you go to. I think that there's such so important. I mean, I've, you've seen the memes, right? You know, be around people who will speak your name in a room when you're not there. And we don't understand the power of that. That goes back to the silence thing that you were saying before the power of mentioning someone else and opening the door for someone else. I'll share a cost. Nothing. It costs nothing. Nothing at all. Um, I've shared a quick story. I was at an event. And I'm talking to this lady, you know, she's telling me about this, uh, this group that she manages and how they needed some leadership development. Obviously that's what I do. So I started inquiring and she was like, actually, and this, and mind you, this was the very first time that I was meeting this woman. We've been connected on LinkedIn since like 2019. So we had been connected. We never met in person, finally met her. And so she was just like, yeah, you know, um, back in March for, uh, international women's month, we were looking to have an event. And I mentioned you as, um, you know, as a potential speaker, but they ended up going with someone who was already in the program. And I can't tell you how like floored I was to hear that. Right. And it didn't even matter that like things didn't work out, but it was just like. I, first of all, I didn't even know she was still following me on LinkedIn after all those years. Secondly, to hear that here it was women's international, um, month or international women's month. And she was recommending me for a thing that I would have never even known about. And so I think it, I want to share that story to highlight that, you know, even if whatever you mentioned the person for doesn't work out the power in that. The power in that for that person, if they, if they find out, or if they never find out, um, but this is how we open doors for each other. We're always talking about how, you know, uh, opportunities are few and far between. Well, what, what other person did you create space for? What other person did you create space for? And then I'm going to say this as the last thing, and then we're going to get into a good session because I love it forever. Um, even my book, lead her ship, uh, reloaded, you know, that was, that stemmed from a conversations that I had with, I don't know, 20 something or maybe 30 something plus women. Right. And even as I was writing that book, like I wanted to acknowledge each one of them. Whether they were in corporate or they were in their business. And so I included their information, their desired legacy, all of that in the book. Why? Because years from now, someone's going to pick it up and they're going to look at, you know, one of the people that I referenced or one of the people that I talked to, and they might, they might have a need for their product or their service. And so I just, I want you to hear this. Uh, for those of you who are listening, not just as, oh, okay, well, that sounds great, but no, here are practical ways that we are doing it. And there are practical ways that you can do it in your everyday.

Erin: 42:39

And I set goals, right? Like, Hey, like three times a month, make sure like you've mentioned or highlighted someone else, right? Like just start off small, but it also makes you happier. There's nothing better than giving someone else accolades. Like it is the best feeling in the world. I agree.

Sabine: 42:56

I totally agree. So with that, we're going to move into the blitz session. Three questions. Are you ready? I am ready. Okay. Awesome. So first question, knowing what you know now, given all of your experiences, both personal and professional, if you could go back to a younger version of yourself and give her a piece of advice that you think would have been a game changer for her, what might

Erin: 43:20

that be? Just shut up. You don't know everything. And that's honestly like, I, I, it's funny. Like, you know, you hit an age where you do know everything and then you get older and you're like, I know nothing. Like I literally, I know nothing. That's what I tell my team. I'm like, I hired you because you're smarter than me. And I know nothing. So that, I mean, Listen more air and just listen more with. Yeah.

Sabine: 43:46

Yeah. I find myself constantly thinking about things that I did and said in my younger years and I'm just like, Oh yeah, she was young and dumb. But at the time you couldn't have told me that like I had a life figured out. So I love that that's not what I was expecting you to say but I love that just shut up and listen, you don't know everything. Yes. Um, now let's look forward, right? So you talked about how you're sowing these seeds so that, you know, your daughter, your nieces, everyone around you, you know, um, as they're growing up, that they'll have this as, as part of their identity and part of their truth. But, you know, we look 40, 50, 60, however many years down the line, and you're looking back at your life. You're looking back at the impact that you made. What do you want that narrative to be? You made people's

Erin: 44:35

lives happier. Like as long as I made you smile and like some incremental value add, that's, that's what I want.

Sabine: 44:44

Okay. Well, uh, you're living that legacy for sure. Um, so I love that. And then lastly, are, is there a book or have there been any books that have been pivotal for you, uh, with regards to your development personally or professionally?

Erin: 44:58

Yes, there is. Um, and you should have had it, but they're Adam Grant. The originals is one of my favorite books. Um, it's incredible. It's a really, really good read. Adam is just an incredibly smart, intelligent human being. The other is the last lecture. Rainy Posh. He was a, um, he was a professor and the book, I won't give away the secret, but it's, uh, it's his last lecture. And it's, it, it, I heard it when I was about 13 and it still has stuck

Sabine: 45:33

with me. Oh, wow. Okay. So I will be adding both of those, the originals and the last lecture. hopefully for those of you who are listening, you don't just hear these recommendations and then it's just like, oh, okay, great book that you actually read them because I have learned that in the seasons in which I asked these questions, these are books that I actually need. Like I can't tell you how many times someone has recommended a book and I'm like, okay, well let me go ahead and add it to audible. Or you have got your list.

Erin: 46:04

Yes. Yeah.

Sabine: 46:05

right? The list is in the book. And then I go in and I read it and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I needed right Now. I'm not saying that that's gonna be the case for every book, but you're hearing this for a particular reason. What's being shared is being shared for a particular reason. So if you're like me and you know, you fall asleep reading a chapter. Get audible, get it, you know, get it on audio so that as you're cleaning the house, as you're walking the dog, whatever it is that you're doing, you can be learning. Um, I am a true believer that leaders are readers and books are by far the greatest way. Of course you can have a coach, a shameless plug, but I do believe that, uh, reading it, there's a power, there's a transfer. That happens when we, um, when we read that you just can't get, you know, watching a YouTube video or Googling something. So that is my plug for reading with that. Aaron, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for your authenticity. And with that, Aaron, for those who are wanting to connect with you and they want to, you know, suck in some of this unique brilliance that you, you're putting out in the world, how can they get in touch with you? Where do you hang out?

Erin: 47:15

Yes, thank you. And you are far too kind. I am available on LinkedIn. Please find me Erin Sumner, Global Director of HR at Delete Me. Um, also a quick shameless plug for my company. Join delete me. com. Um, we help bring your privacy and your personal information back into your hands. So thank you so much for having me, Sabine. It was such a joy and a pleasure

Sabine: 47:39

being here. Absolutely. And I believe you have, um, there's a discount code, right? If they use your discount.

Erin: 47:45

Yes. Use Aaron 50 as a promo code and it'll get you 50 percent

Sabine: 47:49

off. All right. Awesome. I will include that in the show notes as well as your, uh, your LinkedIn. So for those of you who are listening, thank you for joining me for another episode, Aaron, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your nuggets of truth. Uh, and hopefully for those, you know, who, who are. Pondering kind of, how do I make an impact? How do I expand on my influence that you've taken some of these, uh, notes here, uh, and you can begin to apply them with that. Have a wonderful rest of the week. We will be back next week with another female powerhouse. Take care.

48:26

You enjoyed this week's episode. If you found today's conversation helpful, or got a piece of insight that you plan to implement in your life, I'd love to hear from you. Connect with me on LinkedIn at Sabine Gideon and send me a message, or feel free to leave a review on either Apple or Spotify. I also invite you to share this episode with anyone in your network, another powerhouse, possibly who you think might benefit from today's conversation. Lastly, as always, any links, any resources, or any upcoming training is included in the show notes. So be sure to check that before you leave today until we chat again, have a blessed and powerful week.