Why Everyone Should Grow Up Involved in Sports | Sports Culture and How It Builds Leaders

"My ego demands— for myself— the success of my team."
BILL RUSSELL 

Everyone should be involved in team sports. Someway, somehow everyone should grow up in or around sports culture because it teaches you so many valuable lessons. How to work with others, leading a small group of individuals towards a common goal, working hard to achieve something and social skills can all be learned playing sports. Not everyone will grow up to become a professional athlete, or even a collegiate athlete, but everyone can be a part of sports to develop qualities that can't be learned elsewhere.

Russ Ewell sits down Caleb Coleman, a former Cal Berkeley football team Division-1 student-athlete at the Haas School of Business, and Matthew McHugh, a Senior at Northwestern University working as a Broadcaster for WNUR Sports, to talk about sports culture and leadership. Our society has become focused on winning and lose and not on developing the character of those involved. Drawing from their own personal experience of playing and observing sports cultures, teamwork, coaching, they share what they have learned about leadership and how to lead different.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Eh, not what your country can do for you and what you can do for your country. I get on in one word, I have a dream, but one day this nation will, has the returns as well.

Speaker 2: 0:25

I want to welcome everybody to the lead different podcast where every a week we tried to get a podcast out that talks about a leading and different ways, not the top down way, collaborative consensus, all kinds of different ways using emotional intelligence, whatever it may be. Today we're going to talk about sports culture and leadership. And we're really lucky because we have Caleb Coleman here with us. Uh, and Matthew McHugh, uh, and uh, uh, Caleb is a former division one, a student athlete, uh, from cal Berkeley. Uh, went to the Haas School of business, which is a[inaudible] that's top grade right there. Uh, and uh, but it was with a cow started on the cal Berkeley football team playing wide receiver and cornerback, so he's got a little speed. Uh, and then Matthew McHugh is a senior at Northwestern university. And I apologize to all my Michigan friends that I'm actually saying the words Northwestern though they are a big 10 and we love the big 10. But you see here, Northwestern university works as a broadcaster for w n u r sports, the broadcasting home for Northwestern wildcats athletics as an online editorial staff slash podcast directors. So we hope he'll let us continue to run the podcast if he doesn't take it off. But Matt, and then, and Caleb, I'm lucky to have you guys here because I've wanted to talk for awhile about sports and leadership. I'm a believer, and you don't have to agree with me on this, but I'm a believer that sports is one of the best ways to learn how to lead. Now, I actually, I forgot to tell you man. I was a, uh, worked for school newspaper throughout Middle School and, and uh, in high school. And I was fortunate for a awhile. So I me, I was into sports, not just cause I played it, but because I wrote about it and I used to love, right. And I wrote about football. I used to love, we took the pictures, do the whole nine yards. So I think sports is, is bigger. The, the Eagle system was, sports is bigger than the players. It's all the different people that are involved, including the parents. But I think it produces leadership. And so we, we're going to have as, uh, a pretty robust discussion about leadership and sports. And of course there's a lot of controversial things that go on with players who played sports. And, uh, I'm going to turn it over to you guys just to throw out whatever you're thinking about. But I want to mention one thing that was on my mind and that is that one of the things that really impressed me about Northwestern a few years ago, I think it was two years ago, is when the players came together to form, try to form a union. That was one of the coolest things. And I, I remember talking to my wife and saying it, it could only happen at a school like Northwestern, like where you have to have the, that the athletic ability, but also the intellect to even think about it. And I'm a big believer in athletes should be paid and all that kind of stuff. So I, I to talk about this word stuff. I want to talk about generational leadership, but why don't you guys jump in and just, you can take us wherever you want to go based on that introductory thought and then I will, we'll, we'll just enjoy ourselves. Definitely. Yeah, I started off, I think,

Speaker 3: 3:12

um, as I kind of heard the topic, I thought it'd be important to kind of define leadership, uh, first off, kind of like going definition and as I thought through through my football career, uh, throughout high school, um, playing, playing division and college football, um, thought leader with somebody who really, I looked it up as well as a, an influencer, right? Somebody who spurs their teammates, spurs the team, others on to, to action, right? So, um, I look at it for me, I never viewed myself as a leader growing up, going through high school or college ever. Um, and I kinda was thinking, okay, well why do I not really consider myself a leader? And, um, I think a lot of that was my coaches would always have this mentality of, you know, the raw, raw in your face, the person who is always at the front giving the, you know, the pregame speech, you know, and then the locker room or giving the halftime speech when you're down a couple of touchdowns. Uh, you know, kind of getting everybody motivated. But I was never that guy. I was never the guy that was kind of loud in your face at all. So I thought, well, am I a leader? Is that mean I'm not a leader? Um, but the more I even thinking about now, I think, did I spur others on to action? Right. Did I, did I facilitate a culture that I, um, influenced my teammates? And as I'm thinking about now, I think yes, because, uh, leading by example, I think in high school, uh, I remember at a certain point in time where, uh, we lost the game my junior year, we were in the playoffs, first round of playoffs. Uh, we lost a pretty devastating game going back and forth, probably about four to five different lead changes in the fourth quarter. And I think I scored two touchdowns in that and they ended up coming down in scoring, uh, to win the game on us. So I remember walking off the field that day and I was, I was just devastated. And I remember telling myself, I'm going to do everything I can, that's in my power to make sure I never feel this, this feeling again. Oh yeah. So I remember at that point I said, I'm going to dedicate myself and be the first one in the weight room. Um, you know, every single day in the off season I'm going to be, if my success wouldn't be result of me not putting the work in right at the end of the day. So, um, so I think about that. I think about all the, the people. I as I started to take that on for myself and take my game to the next level, all the people that, um, start to follow. So I remember a lot of the younger guys, uh, you know, would start to come work out with me. You know, after school, a lot of guys would hang out, but I was always in the weight room. But as years went on, more guys would start to, especially that off season, a lot of my teammates would come and join me. Mainly kind of the younger guys, which are funny. They actually won the championship. Uh, they kinda guys, it's about a core group of three guys that I, uh, would kind of mentor and started lifting weights with in the season and their team, their senior year, won the championship for NCS. So, uh, so yeah, that's, that's Kinda my take on leadership. I, I think, um, you know, even going into a lot of the coaches, I think that's how they define leadership. So I think that's how that that was transitioning or passed down to me, that if the leaders are the ones who are, you know, raw, raw, kind of leading, um, vocally, but I don't, I don't think leadership is that by any means. I think you can lead by example and, um, you know, even looking at my time at Cau, a lot of the leaders there and, um, I don't know if we dive into it, but Jared Goff, sure. Uh, have you list. Yup. He was a, you know, number one overall pick in the, in the draft a couple of years ago. Uh, played with them. We were the same year, but he, uh, he got a lot of criticism because he was not vocal at all. He was never a vocal leader. So he was never the guy in the pregame kind of getting everybody hyped up. Uh, never the guy in the huddle that was Kinda, you know, amping everybody up. Nothing like that. And even in the off season. But, uh, but as I look at it, I remember at different points seeing him in some of the most hostile environments that we played in one of them being, I remember Texas, we were in Texas, which a hundred thousand plus. Um, I remember him getting, getting smacked in the face. I think it was the first quarter. And we're, all the nerves are going and we're all nervous where we're in an awesome environment. Yeah. Texas, Texas is no joke. Yeah. So, uh, I remember him getting, getting hit in the face real hard, but I think he had a pass, maybe touchdown, something like that high scoring game by the way. But, uh, I remember seeing him come up with like a fist pump or something like that and just turn to the sideline like, like, guys, we got this. Yeah. You know, we got this guys. And uh, and that was one of the most powerful moments I remember cause it, it helped me and helped me calm, calm me down and my nerves. And, um, that's something I'll always remember about Jared and, and um, I think he was an effective leader even though he wasn't the vocal leader that you would normally define us. Somebody who's, you know, this pinnacle definition of leadership. Yeah. And I would almost say that that's better to be that if that's not you, if you're not the guy who's going to be vocal, if that's not naturally you right, then don't pretend to be that guy. I feel like that's almost worse for your team if you're pretending to be someone you're not just to, to have that persona of being the leader. So that's not actually you then just lead by the way you do. Right? Yeah. There's so many different ways, like you were talking about to be a leader. It's not just about being that loud vocal guy. Like you were saying, it's, it's about being yourself and showing how to be the best version of yourself to the people around you. I mean, that could be by example. That could be, it could actually be being local. That's not to say that that's wrong either. Right. That's to say that if that's actually you, if you are actually very energetic person, if you're a loud person who like to get everyone riled up around you, by all means do that in the leadership role. Um, and I think it's also important to think beyond the title of leader to just because you have the title of CEO or because they have the title

Speaker 4: 8:56

of sports director of the radio station or a captain, the football team, right? That doesn't necessarily make you a leader with that title. I think there's, you have to kind of earn your leadership role beyond that title. I think there's actually physical things you have to do, whether it be by example, whether it be by just kind of laying out the the ground rules of how things work or mentoring younger players or players or younger members over the organization you're in. I think there's a lot that goes into it beyond just that title. And sometimes people get trapped and think, well, I'm the captain of the team, therefore I'm a leader and that's it. Right? And no, your role is not done there. You have more work to do beyond that. And uh, and I think that's important to remember as we kind of continue this conversation of leadership.

Speaker 5: 9:39

I'd love to ask you this. I love that. Yeah. I was curious for you Matt, we were talking before we, the mikes are on, but like you get to follow the team at Northwestern. Yeah. I'm wondering, I'm curious to like what you observe in regards to the leadership on the football team specifically or just any other than the sports that you follow as a reporter, as a journalist, as a broadcast or like do you see things that maybe like maybe don't necessarily hit the page or hit the mix, whatever. Absolutely. That you pick up on as just an observer, being able to let that kind of fly on the wall. It's a great experience and I'm so thankful that at Northwestern they give us that opportunity. I was saying before the podcast as well, I don't think there's a lot of other schools that give student radio broadcasters that opportunity. So

Speaker 4: 10:20

I'm very thankful for Northwestern. They'll let us travel with, with all the teams. Um, with football. You don't get to spend as much time with the players. As you probably know from traveling with division one football, there's four buses of people. We go on bus for the training staff and I'm thinking on that bus, like if this bus didn't make it the game, go on.[inaudible] but[inaudible] with the non rev teams a lot more. The women's basketball, the baseball team, soccer team, softball, that, those kinds of teams you really do get to spend a lot of time. You're sitting in the airport, they're flying commercial, you're like playing cards with the players in the airport, you're grabbing clues with them and then you get to kind of see how they interact. Um, one of my, one of my favorite stories was from the, uh, the baseball team. So I W I was hanging out in the airport, this was in the, in the Midway airport, uh, and we had like two hours to kill before the flight. So we're looking for Food and all the coaching staff is kind of set up by the gate. Um, and there's a McDonald's right across the way. Our backup catchers. Really cool guy. Um, he wanted to get that McDonald's, but he didn't want the coaches to see him. So he goes the other side of the airport walks all the way through the terminal and then he hangs out there with a couple of other players and he's like, I need my McDonald's fixed, man. I don't know what the time are. You gotta have it. Oh, this is like, all right, so this is, this is this Kinda guy. Um, but it was great. We had a great conversation and you kind of get to learn what these players are thinking. Um, and a lot of times like you just see the sheet and it says, oh, red shirt junior, he'll be coming back for his senior year. And I talked to him and he's like, oh, I'm talking to my dad about getting a job at his banking company and I think I might leave after this. And you get to really know, okay, these players are more complex than they're made out to be on this info sheet of paper that attended to a broadcaster, right? Or, Oh, I played summer league here and I got to know these players on the other team. And it has a lot more depth and complexity to these players. And I think that's kind of the most important thing when you're, when you're broadcasting or as any media member is to understand these are people playing the game and they all have inter individual interesting stories to tell. Um, and especially in a baseball broadcast, there's a lot of time to kind of work those interesting personal stories into the narrative of the game. So I think that's one of the most important things that I've been able to gather from traveling with the team.

Speaker 2: 12:31

Now, do you guys, when you look at, so let's go to sports, you know, when, uh, so Matt, as you play sports

Speaker 4: 12:37

growing up? I did. Yes. So I play baseball, uh, from first couple of years. Uh, I play all the way growing up. Uh, and then in high school I realized, I think my sophomore or junior year it was going to be, if I wanted to be involved in sports, it wasn't going to be on the page. Yeah. I moved over to the student newspaper and then worked my way up there.

Speaker 2: 12:55

And, and so you started young. And when did you start playing? Uh, Caleb, uh, playing football or any sport? I mean I started in track when I was probably four or five years old. Okay. Very young. And Nathan, you played baseball, started playing baseball. I don't know, second, third grade. My, my grandfather played in the minors. My grandfather's brother played in the majors for the cubs. So basically we're very baseball family and that's how everybody started baseball. Right. And then played football, basketball, track, everything. My Dad was a baseball guy. Yeah. He was just about to, I've told the story before, but he was just, and I'm going to bring this around a leadership cause I think the sports, I think sports is more than division one or pro. Totally. And I think it shapes people's lives that people who never go on to play. My Dad played. Um, he, he had a really unique situation where he was trying out for a Negro Baseball League and, uh, he was on the bus after being in the tryouts. He was still in college, he had a basketball enough, uh, basketball on a baseball scholarship to school. And so he was on the bus and the coach came over and said, hey, you just made it. And he had a nickname. I don't remember right now. It's like bones or something like that. And uh, and he said,[inaudible] you, uh, you're going to be our starting second baseman. And my dad was so excited cause I don't even know for sure, but I think he's a sophomore in college. Um, and then a couple weeks later his mother called and said, Uncle Sam wants you, which meant he had to go to the Korean War and he never, he never, he never played again. He got convinced that he should just go to college and not play baseball again. And so my dad passed away some years ago, but I remember I hated baseball. So boring to me. Right. That's how I was kind of kid. I know it's not necessarily true and, and he wanted me to play so badly, but I never would. But I remember watching him play, watch baseball every weekend. We watched so much baseball and he took me to everything I've seen. I've seen, I don't know, at least one third of the franchises play in my life. Starting at like age four, I was going to games. Um, so sports was a part of my life early. I feel like sports is what I was relating to you. Kayla is what made me understand I was a leader, I was a nerdy kid on purpose. I just wanted to be a genius, be smart, go to a really good school and be a chemist and, and all that. Uh, or a nuclear physicist soldier. My, I want to be chemistry, nuclear physicist. And then, um, and then in middle school, you know, somehow I got to know some guys who play basketball and I realized that, well everybody likes them. They're social giants. And I was like, I'm over here and I'm nothing right. One of my friends, cause you gotta go for the basketball team. I didn't know how to play. And so I, the summer between my sixth grade year and my seventh grade year, I learned how to, I'd run track a little bit, but I, I I learned how to play basketball. Um, and then I really wanted to be an NBA player. Uh, I didn't realize I was a leader until I was in sports. I wasn't the best player on the team, but my coach, like the fact that I was a vocal leader so I wasn't the best, but I was very vocal. Like whether it was cheering the guys on or going and talking to somebody and saying, hey, you can do this or you can do that or try that. Or did you see what that guy is doing to you there? You know, he, my coach wanted me to come back and coach, but I didn't realize I was a leader until I got into sports. And I think leadership, like you were saying, Matt, it's a lot of different things. I think it's example. I think that's huge. I think it's talent. I think sometimes you just the best guy on the team and you don't will, you need to say, I think it's relationship building ability being the glue. And that's something in the book that, uh, Nathan Nathan wrote about the captain seat book. Um, but I feel like a lot of kids should play sports because I think it, it allows them to find their form of leadership, whether it's leading themselves, it's being the glue or it's just learning how to be part of something. There's an element of knowing how to lead yourself when you can restrain yourself and let someone else be great. But I'm wondering if you guys notice whether you look at the athletes that you cover or you played with, if a lot of people have been influenced by sports to become better leaders just by playing on a team or whatever. Do you think that's true or am I overstating that or,

Speaker 3: 16:56

yeah, I mean I can speak on that. I think. I think so. I think it is, plays a big role. Um, I know when I started playing, uh, I mean high school football is probably the best time I could probably see that development. Right. Um, I mean it was very cut and dry in terms of the work that we put in and the outcome that that resulted. So my freshman year we, we didn't win a game and I think at that point it was pretty clear that we just weren't very good and which a combination I think preparation as well. Um, but I think in terms of leadership, I think it was, it was clear there that we had a lack of leadership and it's very clear because you know, you're, you're not, when you see no results, I mean, I think it's very clear that you're, you're lacking something in sports as opposed to school. I mean, yeah, you get a grade on something, but it seems a little

Speaker 2: 17:50

more, um, abstract. I W I would say, I think in sports, when you're mano a Mano against another team competing against somebody in front of you and you get thrown to the ground, I think it's pretty clear. I think going on Bill Simmons, I don't know if you guys listen to this podcast, but yeah, Bill Sim, it's called sports, the ultimate meritocracy where it is. It's not about let's discuss it. You can or you can't you. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I think in that front, I think, uh, I think it does evoke leaders because, you know, I, I know for me with that team, I didn't want to be part of a wellness team. Uh, and I think that definitely compelled me. It compelled me to wanna to want to work harder to search yourself more. Exactly. Like you were talking about with the weight room and exactly those kind of things. Exactly. What are you thinking that, well, I'm thinking sports just as an organization of people with a common interest. Just kinda thinking a little bit more broadly here. Yeah, that's great. That's kind of what would make a leader out of any situation, right? I mean, if any, in any organization you have at anything in life, if there's a group of people all with a common interest and a common shared goal and trying to find a way to get to that goal, right, well then you're going to naturally have some leaders come out of that and you're going to have people who kind of find their place. Right. I think that's a big thing with sports, especially as you get to obviously by the collegiate level, everyone's knows they're pretty invested in sports, but as you're trying to get to that level, the, the guys in the youth leagues and the High School League, that's a huge, poor part of development for a lot of people. Finding something that they're passionate about and that they're interested in, and finding a group of people who share that interest and share that passion. And I think sports is a great way to provide that. And even broadening that out, the sports media coverage too, I think that's something a lot of people find their passion in covering sports. Oh yeah. I think that's another way you can bring leaders out of that. Um, and the at it's kind of naturally formed. But again, I think it's just, it's more important to think of this in the context of yeah, that's all that sports. I like to keep broadening it because it's bigger. I'm sitting here thinking, I'm saying I wish more w you know, a, I don't know if David Traver we owe a lot cause we got his friend Matt here. He's here. Cause shout out David. No David, you have David negative day, a little low over there at Santa Clara, Gold Broncos. Um, but um, you know, we, I I they try to tell you about, we have a, uh, working in an inclusive sports program. We're gonna special needs kids with typical kids. I have, I have special needs kids and I wanted them to have that experience. I had grown up cause I played little league football, but I got hit a couple of times when I was like, I'm not playing this. Like it's cold. It's Michigan, it's cold. And I'm getting hit. There's two things wrong here. And, uh, and, but, but, um, I w the reason I did it is I wanted my kids to have the experience of what you described. It's, it's not only is it the common goal, it's the community. There's this increase. Like I grew up in this, in Michigan and this incredible sports communities. It's like family. It's a, you described the airport within Northwestern players. There's a family thing to that and there's all those, you know, you talked about the story about the guy running to get the McDonald's. This is like, we, we committed a crime, but yeah, it was onto it. So we were in the re, uh, regionals. We were in regionals, uh, in our, uh, and we were the first team to have our school basketball to win the districts and regionals, uh, in Michigan. And we went out to pizza, all the, and then that later waitress took off for a minute and somebody instigated us all and said, let's just leave. So all of us left without paying. Wow. That's terrible. That's terrible. That's terrible. That's terrible. I'll guarantee maybe not as, maybe not necessarily right now. Every sports team or group of guys has done something stupid. Totally that because it's just the community thing that and then now everybody out there, every parent's going to go, you're encouraging my kids. I didn't mean to tell that story for that purpose. I was trying to say there's this togetherness and this family feel and I think that's part of development. So, so what I want what I'm, what I'm thinking is parents should get their kids involved in sports and I want you guys to take on this as where I'm going, but they shouldn't necessarily get their kid involved in sports because they think they're going to play professional or they're going to go to the one that just the experience is worthwhile and that kid will blossom in it. You'll blossom a lot more than you think.

Speaker 4: 21:54

I think that's getting lost. Right. I think that's an excellent point and I think that some people are getting so focused on sports is the, is the path for this for my kid, he's going to go, he's gonna play high school. Is he going to get a scholarship? Then he's going to get drafted and they kind of lay out the whole life for their kid. And it's like, you know what, I think you're taken away from kind of the whole, the whole purpose of this, which is to enjoy it along the way. And if that gets lost then then what are you doing? I mean I think that's the most important thing. You probably know this too, is that what percentage of high school players don't end up getting a scholarship and then what percentage of college players don't end up playing professional? It's such a small percentage that actually get a full time career playing sports. There's so much more that goes into it and that's about being interested and passionate and like you said, being part of a community with that shared goal and it's a great experience. And I feel like at least that that's starting to get lost, lost

Speaker 2: 22:47

the weight, you know, and you think about someone like, uh, President Obama, you know, we'd been honest, president Alan, his way we find out he's a basketball player. They played in high school. Nobody cared that he played in high school until he was running for president. No one cared at all. But I think that's part of the formation. Gerald Ford, my hometown grants Michigan President took over after Nixon, pardon Nixon, the whole nine yards, played football, university of Michigan. And you can go down the list of, of, of leaders who I think had their lives shaped. And part of what sports does, I think is it teaches you to get along with people. I actually think when you look at two things, military and sports, that's where a lot of the first barriers to racism, uh, to, uh, misogyny or you know, the, the, the equality of women. A lot of barriers fall because you get in that, that bunker together and you have that common goal you're talking about. And that's what I think I want for kids because what I've learned working with the special needs kids, the typical kids is they, they bring them along. One of my, one of my son's best friends, uh, you getting a kid named William Eliezer, they, they came up in our soccer program, which includes special needs and difficult kids. And my whole goal was to, the typical kids would all play some level of high school sport and we'd help them get there. And that the, that the special needs kids benefit was they were part of that set of relationship, that network. Right. And on their, forget when will one ccs championship per year in wrestling. And I was like, this is it. This is the ultimate fulfillment of it. And you know, I still have it on video and it, and I think it developed will to be a better leader because he was working with protecting, serving and helping kids with special needs. So in my view, uh, and you see us in Division One sports, a lot of these athletes are going to neighborhoods and helping people. That's that, that has nothing to do with scoring touchdowns or are getting buckets, but it's changing who they are. And a lot of times the guys that are on the bench, it's changing who they are as they do all these things. And it's why I think sports provides leadership in the community and in the country and why we have to encourage more parents to remember your kid may never play at all in high school. It may sit on the bench. I did a lot. But it'll make them a leader in the community, whether it's helping one person or a hundred people is what I'm thinking.

Speaker 3: 24:53

Yeah, that's funny. I remember they show the infographic, uh, every level for football at least that, you know, it's the 1% whoever get a scholarship and then it's the 0.0001% that ever go to the NFL. So, uh, you know, I definitely agree on, on the, on the point of sports is so much more than having that be a career path. Right. Um, in terms of, I think there's something special when you have the level of diversity of people coming from all different backgrounds. Um, you know, home lives, uh, all coming together to unite. Like you were saying, Matt, for a certain goal. I think there's something special with that because there's so much that has to be done to unite to night a group of people that are so different, but offer the very same exact goal. Um, I would argue that's where a lot of the character development that we're talking about happens. Yeah. You know, learning how to work with somebody who maybe you normally wouldn't get along with if it wasn't for this sport. Right. I'm learning how to, how to encourage the guy who, who maybe has a lesser role, but you need him just as much. Right. Like the offensive tackle who's never going to get any glory. Right. You know, but every play he's pounding against the d linemen and you need him or else we need our offensive tackles to come through from Michigan this weekend. Exactly. Again, you know, so, so I think there's something special that comes of, of honing a role in embracing and holding a role. Um, that plays such a large part for, for one goal.

Speaker 2: 26:14

No ma'am. I'm thinking you got me thinking cause you know, I told you I wrote for a newspaper and Yeah, tell me about how sports affects those who cover it and are involved in it. The community w what's the perspective there? Cause some people may say, my kid just is not any good and can't even put one foot in front of the other. So why are you telling me this? And, and, but I think people may not realize that there's a lot that happens in the coverage and involvement. Uh, that's, that's leadership oriented

Speaker 4: 26:44

friendship with val. Let you just, yeah. I, I think there's a lot of ways to be involved in sports that aren't playing it and to be that, that point earlier about how, what, that's tiny tiny percentage of people who end up playing sports professionally. Yes. Here's a much bigger percentage of people who played sports at some level growing up and then are involved in some way, whether that's working in a front office, marketing, sales, communications, hoe on media. There's so many ways to work for our team. There's staffs of hundreds, thousands of people who worked for every single team at every level and right. I think what that tells me is that there's a lot of people who are interested in sports and they want to stay involved in that, in their professional lives. And I think that's something really special about that. And, and then in every one of those organizations, there's this other structure of leadership. There's another community of people in, uh, in everything. And every college there's a, a marketing style communication staff. That's right. There's all of these people will have to work together for a common goal, just like we were talking about with the players on the field. So there's a lot of ways for people to be involved in sports that are not on the field. And that's, I think that's something to kind of remember too, as we talk about this. When you're growing up and you find something you're interested in, if that is sports, right, it's not for everyone. We don't really, we can, we can say that too. At some point. You know what, maybe sports aren't for you and you want to go another way. Finding your people and an organization. Right. And that, that, that's great. But that's true. If we're keeping it in this context of sports. Yeah, there's a lot of ways to be involved. And I think that's kind of important that people remember when we talk about this.

Speaker 5: 28:12

I think that's really cool cause even what you bring up like the thousands, hundreds of thousands of jobs or whatever, like it to me that I'm like people want to stay a part of that culture and they're attracted to that culture, that sports culture, you know, of having that common goal and everything. And um, earlier I was thinking about, I took a, I was a kinesiology major at SF state and so physical therapy, all this stuff being around athletics and yeah. And I took this child development class as one of my requirements and the teacher was really hard cause he was a hardcore baseball guy. So he was always, he was railing against like using pitching machines and you're, or whatever, you know, like all these different things. He's like, you know, his convictions about little league baseball, you know, but he was such an advocate for like getting kids to try any sport they wanted, didn't matter. It's like, cause oftentimes now, you know, parents will want people to specialize and be like, oh my kid just to play basketball and he's gonna play basketball through all the way to Kipp to college, give us a scholarship, whatever. And like the kid burns out by the time he's 10 or something like that, you know, cause he's like, I'm tired of basketball, you know, and doesn't want to do anything. When maybe he wanted to do badminton when he was like, I don't know. But like I remember hearing that in that class and be like, wow. Like it's, there's such a, a change for are such opportunity for kids to just try anything and be a part and capture that culture and to be a part of some athletics or whatever. Cause if the benefits later on down the road just in their life and wanting to stay a part of some culture, you know, that is attractive. Now, some of you will be wondering, you know, in, in Matt, you alluded to this,

Speaker 2: 29:42

like not everybody wants to play sports. Not everyone wants to be involved and, and, and that's, that's certainly fine. I certainly wasn't for a good part of my life growing up. Um, but the reason I want to talk about sports and leadership is to some degree because of the culture we live in today. And I look at the leadership and what I want to do in this, this little section is sort of give people who are maybe listening and going, this is really cool, but you know, how can I learn something? What can I learn about leading different from this conversation and where you're going? So as I've been observing, say politics particularly, right, and I'm not for or against any of these guys, that's not going to be my advocacy. I look and I said, well, I don't see a lot of teamwork. I don't see people knowing how to be cohesive. Um, there's also a deferment. I remember, I, I defer to guys that, you know, beautiful things. I was fortunate. You can kind of figure out who's better than who and so you don't have to have these long discussions, right? Yeah. You're like, okay, it becomes evident real quick. Yeah. You just go, okay. At one of my friends with dirt, okay, Dirk, you're you're, yeah, you're the man, you're the man and I'm your friend. Right. And it seems like when I watch politics it seems like they're missing the, I hate to make a blanket statement cause this isn't true of all politicians, but politics is certainly gridlocked. And part of what sports does is, one thing we didn't even talk about is the fan. And I was a fan. People will come and the fans feel as much a part of the team as the team. It's that common purpose thing. You were alluding to Matt and I think one of the reasons I want to bring this in is sports does lead different. You, you just because you're a strong leader, like outspoken, you have a lot of opinions, doesn't mean anyone's going to listen to you at all. If you're in basketball and you can't score buckets into defense, they don't care that you can talk well, you know what I'm saying? They don't care that you have a strong opinion about we ought to be running the triangle instead of you know, this or that. They don't, no one cares. You know, go become a coach in, in some, you know, hideaway part of America and to improve yourself. But I do think that one of the things that's missing is that that culture of sports. I'll tell you a story and then you guys just tell me what you think and we'll sort of round this out and then we're going to go, well, we'll, in our next section, we're going to define leadership. You talked about that. We're going to define some types of leadership that come out and why they come out of sports. But when I was growing up, I remember I was eight years old. Now I'm older than, I'm older than everybody in this room by a lot. And I'm Muhammad Ali was in his prime fighting. Well, sort of it, he'd just gotten out of jail I think. But he was going to fight Joe Frazier. And I remember he lost it was the, the fight where he slipped on, well, my opinion is he slipped on water and that's why he went down at the time that they were counting against him. But everybody else, no he didn't. But it was, it was depressing. I was totally depressed. I remember being eight years old walking to the bus stop and being totally depressed cause we listened to it on the radio night before. And it's because to me, Muhammad Ali was a hero. He was brave. He was courageous. He wasn't just an athlete. He was somebody who spoke out. I don't even know that I agree with or understood everything he did. I just knew this guy stands for something. Uh, and I remember, uh, the various athletes that were in the Olympics, they stood for something and it made you go, I think when I was growing up, I didn't see sports. It's just a game. I saw it as part of the life. It it, you know, I rooted for the u s and the Olympics, you know, was a big part of my life when I saw Muhammad Ali stand up and go, Hey, I'm an African American in this time and I'm gonna Change My name and I have a Muslim name, which freak me out. Personally. I was like, what's he doing? Is he betraying the country? You know what I mean? That's how I felt. But he was so brave and I think sometimes we don't understand and there's a million illustrations. I picked her for some people that used to be a really controversial thing to say Muhammad Ali. Now everybody's Obama used the best of all time because it's very controversial. Bill Russell back in the day, uh, very controversial for um, uh, not being willing to do things like be part of the hall of fame and say, no, I'm not going to be a part of it. And he had a lot of opinions about Boston. So sports athletes, and this is in controversy now cause it starts being a little banner thing, which I, you know, I don't think that's a worthwhile, I mean I had done, I'm not in that, that I'm not in that discussion per se. I'm in the discussion of sports is so big and its culture, it influences the country. And what's funny is the athletes, they can work it out but oftentimes the country can't. And I think if we had more people with a sports mentality about how we all work together, it might be a good solution. So the lead different in part in sports is to know your role and be happy with it. You know, to, to be a fan of I'm fan go format. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 34:07

And Lebron James should run for president. Yes.

Speaker 6: 34:08

That the[inaudible] picking Magic Johnson actually Larry Bird, that's the guy. No nonsense. Play the game.[inaudible] cabinet right here.[inaudible] I think that that's a good point that you're making that rise. I think that

Speaker 4: 34:25

um, the, the, the, the mentality that goes into sports is kind of what we need to focus on there. Maybe separating that from the performance on the field, like you're talking about that what these guys are doing in the community, what they're doing off the field, and how they all can kind of agree on those as their common goals as well. Common goals aren't just when the game, right? Just scoring more points in the other team make a difference in our community. Yes. A big common goal for a lot of these athletes and I think if that mentality can work its way higher up into politics, into really all all kinds of organizations in our society, then yeah, absolutely. Here's a funny thing, hang

Speaker 2: 35:00

right. When I was growing up a laboring Magic Johnson didn't even, you were like, it's not even civil. I was in school in Boston, I was a Lakers fan and so there was a lot of tension. Now Lebron James is hanging out, hanging out with Kevin Duran. We're going out in la. So here, here's part of my thing is sports culture today, more collaborative and even better at working things out than it used to be. And as an, is that a generational issue? And I'm, no, I'm asking a big question here. We won't try to answer it all now, but I want to get your thoughts is that it partly a generational issue and that the gridlock you see in politics, that hatred literally you see in politics is very different. It's almost like sports has come around to the point where even tiger woods is shaking people's hands and going, great game. Uh, and in, in, in, in politics, people are being like, I don't even want to talk to you. I didn't want to see you. I don't even want to be around you. I hate you. You know, whatever side you're on. And I actually think that the sports culture mindset could introduce something very different. But I wonder if it's generational. I wonder if there's a generational problem. We haven't leadership in politics in particular that, that, that we're not seeing in sports that we are seeing in politics. I'll put you guys on a spot.

Speaker 3: 36:13

I mean, that's a good point. I mean, one of the things I attached to was the emotional connection with the fans. Um, but I think what you're saying is, I think with sports, I mean, part of me wanted to say the fact that the level of professionalism is that such a, such a high level where you can have a Kevin Durant, you know, going, playing with the Bron and quiet Leonard or whatever the summer leagues that they do in that they generally have these friendships. And I think part of that's the USA basketball culture who are all, yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. So, but, uh, but yeah, I, I mean, I want to say part of it would be that professionalism that I think people understand that it's Kinda like on the court. Yeah. You know, we're, we're enemies, but off the court, you know, we're, we're, we'll be friends even if we're on opposing rival teams. Um, but yeah, I feel like there, there has to be something there. I mean, in terms of the generational gap, um, you know, I think with sports nowadays, people aren't getting along, you know, and there is kind of, that seems like your generation is much more willing to collaborate or work together to compromise. And I, I, for me looking at sports, at first I was like, why are, why are these guys friends? And then you're like, well, I competed against a lot of people and I was[inaudible] yeah, I would make the argument too. I mean, when you look at what athletes mean to society today, I mean we're not into the argument of the national anthem, but you look at a Kaepernick and the amount of players that backed him and the NFL across the league. Yeah. I think it's almost a, uh, kind of, uh, people coming together in terms of athletes coming together against, uh, not, I wouldn't necessarily say opposing, but I mean saying that, hey, we have a role in society and that cannot bring the collaboration within the athlete community. Um, that's something I, I would argue, I think would be big in terms of there's that purpose for the collaboration. Um,

Speaker 2: 38:03

well Northwestern's union, I think that's probably one of the best examples of people saying, hey, there's an issue here and we're not going to be like helpless students. They're exploitation that goes behind the students are, should be. Yeah, absolutely. And if we, yeah, we can talk about that a little bit more too and how that kind of was formed. The people behind that, that was something they had. They had thought about that for a while and it was, it's not just about you. We have this idea. Let's go do it. It's it's, we have to to make sure everyone's on board here and that was that collaborative process that you're talking about. That was a huge reason for why that ended up happening, why they ended up becoming such a big gap. Mike, you're at, let's start our narrative process. They have to get everyone to, to realize we want your ideas to be heard. You're going to pitch an idea. We're going to implement that. It's not, there's no bureaucracy here. There's no, Oh, we have to get this approved by this person. Then go over to this person. It's, I'm listening to you right here. We're doing this. Let's make it happen. Let's start our next section with that. I want to start off with that because I think that will probably help people understand very well just why sports is so powerful in regard to leadership and, and, uh, and we'll do that in a moment when we come on back. And after you tell us that story, we'll get into some of the examples of leadership. So we'll take a break, we'll be back in a little bit.