Pay 'Em What They're Worth! Northwestern Football's Attempt To Unionize & What We Can Learn | Sports Culture and How It Builds Leaders

Continuing the conversation started in Part 1, Russ, Caleb and Matt share the overwhelming influence sports had on their lives and discuss how much it can develop the qualities of a leader. 

Northwestern University’s football team and their quest to unionize in an attempt to expand the rights and benefits of the student-athletes showed to contain many lessons on leadership. Team sports culture instills in those involved and ethos of, “we either succeed together, or not at all.” A collective heart to band together for a larger goal that is bigger than any one person. Not everyone will grow up to become a professional athlete, or even a collegiate athlete, but everyone can be a part of sports to develop qualities that can't be learned elsewhere. 

Should college athletes be paid to play, allowing them a share of the massive revenue gained by the NCAA and Universities around the U.S.? Listen in to find out their thoughts on the topic.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Eh, not what your country can do for you and what you can do for your country. You are[inaudible], right. One word victory. I have a dream of one day. This nation will spot, has the power to change the world. It turns the boom's fine.

Speaker 2: 0:25

Hello, you're listening to lead different by triangle media. Today's episode is part two of the discussion on sports culture and what we can learn from its development of leaders as a refresher. Joining us today on the episode is Caleb Coleman, a former division one student athlete for the cal Berkeley Football Team and Matthew McHugh, a broadcast journalism student and color commentator for Northwestern universities. W N U R sports, the broadcasting home for Northwestern wildcat athletics. You can find lead different on iTunes, stitcher and soundcloud and wherever you listen to podcast, make sure to subscribe for more content. Leave a five star rating and review. Now back to the conference

Speaker 3: 1:00

session.

Speaker 2: 1:06

You know we were just talking about uh, sports culture and leadership and this is our second session. We're really going to kind of dive into a little bit more detail and we're going to do it off of the, uh, example of one of the most inspiring examples to me of leadership and sports was when Northwestern football players decided to try to form a union. Um, and Matt's here and he's gonna really kind of take us into it and help us understand why that's relevant, why that's important.

Speaker 4: 1:28

Yeah. So this, uh, this story, Russ started in, I believe it was 2014, it was right before I got to Northwestern. Uh, it was king Coulter at the base of it. He was one of the quarterbacks that, a two quarterback system at the time as Ken Coulter and the other one was Trevor Simeon who, oh,[inaudible] NFL player forgot those guys were their Superbowl champion. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. So, uh, anyway, it was him at the base of it. And essentially the whole purpose of this was all of the players agreed. Look with college athletes deserve to be paid was kind of the, the basis for that argument. And to do that, a step towards that process is let's form a union. We're essentially workers for the, for the school, for this program. Yeah. We should form a union. We should demand better, better rights for, for the work we're putting in and the money we're bringing into this program. Right. Um, ultimately not, not much came event I believe. I'm not sure what the legal resolution was there. Um, but it was just more about the, the, at that initial act of we're going to form a union, which kind of brought a whole, the, brought this whole argument of paying college players back into the spotlight. And it's still, I believe very much in the spotlight and very much a hot button topic in sports media today. And a big reason for that is these Northwestern players to think about four or five years ago now, uh, deciding to form that union. Um, and then Caleb, obviously you probably have a lot of thoughts on that too. I'm a as a, as, as, as someone involved in sports and sports media. I've seen the work these athletes put in and I as someone like me who only takes, I don't know, like I'll go on a weekend trip with the theme or I'll go on a trip. Yeah. I start falling behind the classes. Yeah. I see the players working on the boss on flight. I'm like, this is absurd. What these players go through, how much work they put in[inaudible] let me ask you about this shit.

Speaker 2: 3:09

Let me ask you about this. Cause there, I'm going gonna make an assumption here. There must be something in the culture at Northwestern because other universities didn't do this. And what is it about the culture of the team or the culture of the school that, that allowed that to even happen?

Speaker 4: 3:25

So Northwestern is interesting because it's, it's very small relative to other big 10 schools. It's less than half the size of the next biggest big 10 school. I didn't know that. It's very, very small. 8,000 Undergrad. I think the next smallest is Nebraska with 20,000 Undergrad. Um, so it's, it's much smaller and as a result, football, all sports just aren't quite as big. It's a lot more of an academic focus. Um, and the student sections is never really full for games. People don't get up and excited for game day. A lot of reason for that was because the teams were bad for so long. There hasn't really been that same culture that there is throughout the rest of the big 10. And I would say most power five programs. So football being kind of the Rock, the basis and there's a huge foundation built there. So I think that that kind of allowed an opportunity for Northwestern to build their own identity identity and build something different. Um, and I think that might've been part of the inspiration for those players deciding to form the union. Um, and I, I think that it has to be the right culture in place for that to happen, not just with the whole school and organization, but also those players.

Speaker 2: 4:28

So, so we, we you're talking about, and we're going to get Caleb in on this, but I think it's important because I think when people think about athletes, too many people, when they think about athletes, they think about people who are not, uh, intellectually rigorous or engaged, right? Honestly, Northwestern is intellectually rigorous and engaged. I had the opportunity to watch Danford in their practices and I'll tell you something, those are some very intellectually engaged people. We have cow here, which Caleb can talk about. But I think it's important people understand that, that, that there are a lot of athletes who are intellectually, socially, emotionally engaged with life outside of the sport. They care about it. And to me, those guys, the reason I respected it is I 100%. I, I, I paid for meals for guys who were athletes in my school cause they, they didn't have any money and people think, Oh, you got a scholarship, why aren't you fine? And, uh, yeah, well, okay, there you need money outside that. And many times they can't work and then they're there. They're working out. But I think that it's important for us to note that sports is part of who a person is. But what we're seeing with these Northwestern players and in this case, in another athletic situations, is we're seeing the leaders rise. And you mentioned two pretty prominent names that I remember from a two one 2014 at the time of guys who are willing to stand up and be criticized, be categorized in a certain way, negatively because they want to do something. And I think that's how change happens. But that's what leadership, and it circles back to our original conversation. These are guys who, when they were five, when they were seven, when they were 11 they were playing on teams and they're used to sticking together. And I think it's interesting that in a, it was in a football team that was able to get itself a unified and that unity is because there was some guy probably on the team who was like, I don't know if we need to be getting into this, that looked at the team and said, hey, if we're going to go, we're gonna all go together. And that's why that, that's why I think sports offers a different kind of leadership. It's a collective leadership. We're willing to let Trevor Simeon be the front face of a what we're doing, but we're going to stand 100% behind him. And so I think it's a very powerful thing. I love it. But we can talk both about the leadership it took to do that and what we'll take even I think, I think you're gonna need more athletes to do that. Yeah. If we're going to see it get better. And when you look at what's happening in sports with the coaches, including our coach at Michigan, making so much money, president's making so much money and these kids not, I mean it's a fraction of what they're bringing in. And a lot of these universities, not every one of them, uh, there should be something done. But leadership by the athletes is a really relevant part. But I think it's a good, instead of people criticizing athletes for having as socially, emotionally, intellectually, I think they should look and go, that's profound that they're doing that.

Speaker 5: 7:16

Yeah. I mean, one of the things that stuck out to me was how they're willing to kind of impose a system in place. Uh, made me think of, I remember, you know, playing at Texas, I referenced earlier, you know, going up to Washington or, um, when you're playing in some of these environments, it is very much so us against the world mentality. Right? Um, and I think when you're, when you're playing sports, growing up at five, at seven, at 11, you're, you're used to and kind of developing that mindset of us against this other team or this other, you know, you go on that away game, it's us against this, this city, you know, against this whole group of people. Um, so I would imagine, I mean, going into the Northwestern example, they had developed that, that kind of niche or that kind of ability to, to kind of go in and say, hey, we're all Kinda gonna challenge this system in place. Being the, you know, paying the athletes and whatnot. Um, which I think was, is what enabled them to, to do something like that and completely validating the fact that it takes a very unique place to do something like that. I look at Northwestern, um, one of the schools I wanted to go to was looking at Stanford, cal, Northwestern, kind of some of my top schools, but, uh, there was something very common in those, in those environment. Interesting. Yeah. I think there's something very similar and I think it was only going to come out of a Northwestern, a cow, a Stanford something where you're much more engaged intellectually. You know, there's challenge.

Speaker 2: 8:42

Do you guys think that as we're talking about this, do you think that people, I may be wrong about this, but do you think people misunderstand athletes and athletics because it, it seems like, um, people can be pretty judgmental of athletes, at least it feels that way to me. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 4: 9:02

Uh, I've, I've noticed that too. I've seen, I've noticed people with football players and I thought, oh, this is going to be easy class. They'll get all the football players[inaudible] these guys put in. I mean, I, I'm, I'm willing to say it, some of the, a lot of them study more than I do, which is really impressive given how much time they devote to their athletics too. But I think it's just the work ethic of VCU. I'm sure Kayla can back this up to, um, at least from what I've noticed at Northwestern, the work ethic these guys have, they operate so differently. They get themselves up at 6:00 AM yeah, go weightlift they spend their whole day working and it's like they're working out, they're studying, they got tutors, they're there. Every step of their day is so scheduled. And it's like, man, I'm going to wake up at 10 and go to class.[inaudible] the way athletes opera, especially if you're going to be that good competitive at, at, at a good academic institution and I can't, I have to operate,

Speaker 2: 9:56

can't understand. And you know, and I, I wouldn't even, you know, I obviously their athletic programs who, you know, they're, they're these cases where people just don't do anything. I get that. But I think far in a way and from what I've seen in the athletes I have known and I've known more than a few, um, these guys are working hard and there's all kinds of different levels and types of intelligence that we can get into education and talk about the fact that, well, what if you have spacial intelligence but your, you know, your, your, your, your cognitive capability to read is not that good. Does that mean that you're useless? And I think part of it is society has to, to upgrade its understanding of what it's like to be an athlete and how much are their characters built. I want you to explain on that, but I'm going to tell people the story just for those who are older that may be sitting there poo-pooing going, you're getting back on$100,000 a year for education. He should shut up and just go eat, you know, and be quiet. Okay. But the bill Bradley, you guys are maybe too young to know who he is. One of my favorite players growing up, 1970s New York Knicks, they won the NBA Championship. He went to Princeton, he was a leading score, I believe. And I didn't go back and look, but I'm pretty much, I think I'm accurate on this. He was the leading score in college basketball. I read a book about Bill Bradley. Someone gave me a leather bound vintage, a copy of it about eight years ago. And uh, he talked about his life and what he had done and what Bill Bradley did on every road trip in the NBA was he took policy books with him everywhere. He ended up being the U S senator from New Jersey ended up running for president. I in a few. So he went to Princeton. Look, if you're an athlete, you can go anywhere and your life's going to be tough academically. I don't care where you go. Um, but I think people underestimate. He was one of the most collaborative, reasonable, uh, able to be on both sides of the aisles. Guy that you can go look them up, people can read about him and brilliant, uh, able to work with just about anybody. He had a hard time, I think campaigning for president cause he didn't want to slash and burn people, which is also that I think athlete, people talk about how athletes trash-talk but seriously, athletes don't generally get into tearing everybody down. It's just not their deal. And you might, you might crush them athletically, but you're not trying to crush them personally. So I feel like we need more, I guess where my position is, we need more athletes in politics, in business as part of teams to add that sprinkle that, that fairy dust if you would of of I can respect you and compete against you, you know, that kind of thing. But yeah, I mean I think

Speaker 5: 12:22

that that's inspiring. I know about him. Uh, but I mean it would make sense. I mean I can only speak on my experience, right, but, but being a cow, I mean, just the level of rigor that we are, we've been talking about, I mean, you've seen that play out firsthand of, you know, you have your 6:00 AM lift, you know, you, you wake up early, you have your lift, then you have a ADM class. You know, and then you have a class and leading up to maybe a half hour break before a one 30 meetings, right? Then you're in meetings from one 30 to three 30 and then three 30 to six 30 you're practicing. I'm already tired. Yup. Yeah. And then if you, yeah. And then if you, if you want, you know, to, to really separate yourself and really be great at what you're doing, you're going to stay on the field a couple, you know, extra 2030 minutes to kind of get extra working with your position coach. Um, and then we have dinner man, mandatory dinner yet you're at, so you're looking at really when you're settled in, in a place to really even start your homework, you know, seven 30 or 8:00 PM and that's, that's the daily schedule. So I think the character that we're kind of almost forced to, to develop and build in order to just stay afloat academically while competing at the level we are against the top athletes in the country. I think it's almost a sink or swim kind of thing. And I think that's why, you know, red shirting is as prevalent as it is. You know, you red shirting is explained you. So red shirting is your first year coming as a freshman, you'll pretty much all, you'll do a red shirt seal. You're not eligible, um, to, to play. But you, you save your year so you'll be there for five years, skip next year, don't play your game. So decreases some of the pressure on it. Exactly. But you do everything else. You do everything else. So you're in the media and everything minus minus travel, right? Yeah. Minus travel. So I think that's why red shirting I'd say about, you look at a Stanford program who's really solidified their program and the type of culture they want to develop. I would, I would argue about 75 to 80% of their players going to red shirt when they first enter the program their freshman year. And I think that speaks to, I mean, Stanford a program I have a lot of respect for the type of players that they have on and off the field. I think they're, they're really getting their guys in that first year and developing that. Right. All the things we're talking about, they're developing that character and that ability to handle the rigors of the academic institutions, you know, that, that they're at in addition to the rigor of on the field. And I don't even think it has to be a Stanford or a cow as well. I mean like you, you were talking about earlier your, it's college. Yeah. You know, in college is not easy and when you look at the amount of time the normal student spends studying and then you add in the athletic, you know, components and expectations. I mean I think that's why we see the, the level of kind of a character that, that, that seen from athletes especially playing at that level. And I think the one other thing that I mentioned there is like you mentioned the travel. You don't travel for red shirt, but God, I've seen how much that, how much are told I can take on players, especially the players who are gone for weekends. Like you're, you're missing third. Sometimes you miss Thursday, Friday class. And it's like you're taking tests in a hotel lobby. There's like one of the assistant coaches is proctoring a test for you and in a hotel lobby and I dunno, somewhere random Austin, Texas. They're in a hotel lobby and there's five different guys taking every game the next day, the next morning. It's just, it's wow work these guys put in for that is very impressive and I think when you, when you really look at it, I mean college sports, especially in football, it's professional athletics is professional sports at that point. I think that's why the argument is has gained so much traction. I think people are starting to realize that, hey, these guys are going through the exact same thing and bringing in the same amount of revenue, if not more than what these professional athletes are doing that are making millions of dollars in their contracts. And how many hours do you think that was per week? I mean it was much more than a full time job. I remember talking even to, this is funny story, my, my best friend, he played the same position as me, Cameron Walker. We ended up calculating if you took how much our scholarship was worth and then how much would be paid hourly. We calculated that out for so for the whole year, uh, I think we ended up finding is like 67 cents. 67 cents. If you looked at HR, California, it's like$11. You exactly. You getting roasted. Yeah. That includes homework though. So we included homework but wow. Yeah. Crazy. 67 cents. Okay. You can't even get a candy bar if you go back to when I was in college, you still can't get a candy bar. Um, you were going to say something man. Oh No, I was just saying that's a great point there Caleb, is that you, we think about the work these guys do it. It really is more than a full time job for a lot of these sports. And that's not to say this isn't just for football either. We talk about how much money football, the program athletes at every single sport are putting in so much time.[inaudible] the Lacrosse people, the crew people that see, here's the thing and we're gonna I'm going to start to move a little into the definition of, I just want the person who's listening to, to understand, you know, from my point of view, and I remember being in high school and playing basketball. I played one sport. I quit playing track, running track to focus on basketball, but we would have like two a days. And so I had to be at a school at whatever was six 30 in the morning, then go to around six and then go to school, go to class. Then you practiced again,

Speaker 2: 17:50

and then you get home, you know, seven 30 or something like that and you're so sore and you're so tired. I remember one game, and I'm talking about high school, I'm not talking about a high school. I remember one game studying for my physics test in the stands during the JV game, like I'm in the stands. We had an away game. And I'm like, okay, by the time I get home it's gonna be 10 o'clock and so I need to study now. I'm sitting here and I think people understand that. Why do I think all that's important? When you look at leadership, there's a few things and we're going to just sort of define leadership and kind of go through this and you guys can add anything you want. When you look at leadership, there's a variety of characteristics that you have to develop. One is the capacity to lose or fail. Now, I've done that a lot, both in the uh, um, the startup realm in the nonprofit realm and in the spiritual realm I've done, I failed in all the different realms. Um, and I, sports teaches you how to fail. Like nothing I've ever seen in my life. Just, it teaches you how to get back up, get back in there. You talked about not winning a game the whole season that does something to your mind, your heart, your character. Um, I think sports teaches you to lead by example because you realize, I remember I was, you know, I had a big mouth at a certain point and I knew I had to shut it when I got on a basketball court because it didn't matter how much I could talk about. Uh, I think sports teaches you also to not be so consumed with being liked because sometimes, you know, you go to an away game and you got people saying things to you that are just seriously, I mean, seriously. You know what I mean? If you want to know America, go to a sporting event and be in an away game and find out what you are capable of. See Walk, walked by the student section. Yes. Yeah. People, people look at what's going on now with the politics. Hey, it's nothing. That's where you can vent that, that's like, that's like normal. Um, I think the willingness to do your job and not have to get credit or not be the star. Um, uh, the, the, the, the capacity to learn how to be motivated by something other than yourself. John McCain just died. And playing for saying being yourself. So I think sports teaches all that. And one of the things I think say Facebook or Google or Linkedin, they would really be benefited by looking around and saying how many, how many people have had an, an athletic experience including band? Cause you play in a band when I, at least when I was in high school, you play in a band, you're, you're doing a lot of work. I mean we'd be practicing and they'd be practicing cause you could hear him. Um, and, and, and you're talking about all the, uh, Aster College, the sports media people, all that they're doing all their stuff. So part of what I want to encourage out there as people to realize, hey, if I have a kid, I don't have to have him play in sports because they're going to be a star. Having planned sports for the experience of learning how to work with others, how to lead, how to have compassion, empathy on others and bring people along with you. Uh, one of the first things I want to talk about, I watched, I told you guys earlier, the Pentagon had a about five coaches in, uh, to talk about leadership. And so if we didn't have any credibility on sports and leadership before, this should give us tremendous credibility because some of the coaches I picked out a few, Jim Beyhive, Tom is, oh, Kevin Ollie, who's no longer with Connecticut, but when a national championship there, that's one of the mysteries of life that he got fired. Uh, Tubby Smith and Jay Wright who did Villanova just went in. I forgot to just want it. Uh, yeah, Phil. No, we just want it to be right. Tarheels right? Yeah. Yeah. Jay, right. Wanted it, when did the GDS great coach and these guys I picked out because they talked about leadership in a way that I think we can talk about defining the kind of leader you are. And so the first one I probably say is someone who's resilient. And Jim Bahein said this, and I want to get you guys' thoughts on this as far as the kind of character sports builds into you and why that character can be translated to politics, to corporations, to nonprofit or for-profit Cetera. He said, look, I'm leadership because I don't know that's a, that's a tough subject. But he goes, I'll tell you what, you really, you really don't know who's a leader until you started losing. And he goes, we lost two games in a row and we were in trouble. And he goes, what really impressed me about my team was that every guy stepped up and that leadership when you're defeated is not about one guy. It's about everybody stepping up and doing something. And so one of the things I thought that sports does a great job of teaching you is how to handle failure and not let yourself be defined as a loser to continue to believe you can win and you can achieve. And I was wondering, do you guys agree with that? Disagree with that, that one of the main reasons to be involved in sports as far as learning how to lead is the ability to handle defeat and loss and failure.

Speaker 5: 22:29

Yeah. I mean, the classic example, right, is baseball, you know, you succeed three out of 10 times and you're one of the best players in the league. All the fame player right there, you know? So yeah. I think the component of, of learning how to fill, learning how to embrace failure and learning to let it compel you, right. Instead of, uh, you know, staying stuck in, in that, in that failure, kind of like, Hey, what do we need to do different? You know, every after every game I played in college really in high school, you know, the first meeting team meeting will have, are we looking over film is what do we not do? Right? Right. What do we need to do going forward? And I think that brings a certain mindset of it's, it's a growth mindset. You know, that these athletes handle criticism maybe better than the average person, I would say. I mean, yeah, we get a lot of, trust me, I, there was no lack of, of being yelled at throughout my time playing football. I can guarantee you that. So I would say for sure. So there's this,

Speaker 2: 23:24

with an athlete, you're handling failure. Every practice, you're handling failure constantly in the film room. And so if you were to go into the workplace or wherever and someone was correcting you, it's not going to be as devastating to you as it might be to one of those American idol people who goes into American Ottawa. I always love watching them and they're like, what do you mean I can't? Devastating. Yeah, I didn't need lessons. I'm a natural[inaudible]. You know what I mean? We'll just lose it. We sit there and watch those people. When I'm like in insulin, as I see people get really, you know, there's the big thing about don't be negative, be positive, which I'm all about being positive. But I think sometimes if people had more experience in sports, they, because of the sports you get told, hey, yeah, okay. Uh, Johnny Dawkins was the coach at Stanford for a while. Right. Okay. So he, uh, this, this story fits in with this idea of Lucy, so I can't remember the details, but this is the story based on newspaper. Uh, he was playing in high school basketball and I think he had like 28 or 30 on a guy in the first half. Right. And he ended up with like, I think 36, and after the game they were crushing the team and after the game, his dad pulled him aside. So what happened out there? He goes, well, we one, nothing happened. He goes, no, no, you, you, you, you only scored six, eight points in the second half. Why didn't you score more? He said, aw man, I was killing that kid. And I just felt so bad for that kid. He was just killing him. He goes, don't you ever do that again? His Dad said, don't you ever do that again? You, you'd need to, you hit him with everything you've got. You score as many as you can. You've got to have a killer instinct on this thing and stop being sentimental after the game. You walk up the kid, put your arm around him, say great game, I would encourage you to choose another sport.[inaudible] I read that story and I went, that's athletics. And people go, oh, that's terrible. But I think what it does is it builds the capacity in you to think well of yourself regardless of criticism, regardless of what someone says. You just have this internal thing you develop.

Speaker 4: 25:17

Yeah. I, I think one of the most important things of, of any leader in this context, and I've had, I've been fortunate enough to get to know Chris Collins. Northwestern Basketball Coach played under coach k for a long time coach under him too. Um, so he's got a great relationship with coach k and one of the things we, we, I asked him last year on what makes coach Capes such a great leader. What makes him the guy who's there, the institution in college basketball. And he said the thing coach Kay does, he makes every single person in the room feel like they're important and they're contributing to what they're doing from the best player on the team, to the waterboy to the trainer. Every single person in the room has a role and he wants them to feel like that role is absolutely critical to the team's success. If the waterboard is not on his game, the team will fail. He wants the waterboy to feel like that. He wants every single person to feel like their role is absolutely vital. And that's the kind of culture that Duke has built in the last 30, 35 years that he's been there. Um, that kind of makes a winning institution and that's how leaders are born. Chris Collins became a leader because he got to Duke. He learned that from coach k, he worked his way up. Now he's a leader at a different program. How many different coaches have come out of that program? Love. That's what I love about.

Speaker 2: 26:29

It's because you said the water boy, right? The water boy can be. I've got a friend Darrel, how he, uh, he was, uh, an actor and a Broadway actor and a television actor in New York. Uh, and uh, he, I, I'm a big Pete Maravich fan and I was talking to him one day, cause you know, he's done a lot of really cool things in entertainment and he goes, oh, I was waterboy for the Appalachian State. I go, what? He goes, yeah, press marriage. Pete marriage. His Dad was the coach there while I was there. And then Bobby Crimmins was a coach there while I was there. And, and I was the waterboy and so, and I was like, okay, so here's this guy who's done Broadway stuff that started his water. Boy, I think people understand when you learn how to be part of that cohesive team, it really does something for you. And I know me, I wanted to start all the time. I wanted to be a star and I wasn't. But it taught me that even if I'm not the star, I'm really relevant, important. And so this whole idea of the first element we're talking about is really being resilient. Do you want to add some more on that?

Speaker 4: 27:27

Yeah, I think that that's absolutely critical too. And I think the point, the fear, which one of you made it was that sports[inaudible] that that's the kind of mentality you need and all Wa works of life is, is that resilience and that makes you so much better prepared for things going forward. Um, and everyone fails in sports and everything else. But especially in sports, those failures get accentuated I think a little bit more, especially if you make a mistake in the game. I mean, you hit the error that leads to the walk off. You dropped the pass in the end zone. I mean then you have that whole feeling of not their whole teammate. You let everybody down here for Michigan Against Michigan say when he dad drops the ball to lose the game kid,

Speaker 2: 28:06

I put that kid's picture up on my Facebook, well as my photo because I was like, I know it, not that I was ever there. I know exactly how you're feeling. And it wouldn't surprise me if that kid turns around his present United States or something because it's so phenomenal. So let's move to the second one. So that first one is really to be a leader, you need to be able to be resilient and nothing teaches it like sports. And for a lot of people out there who have a hard time hearing input, uh, getting, getting a job evaluation, I'll tell you what, all that gets easier if you're coming up in high school or Middle School and your coach is going, no, that's not how you do. You gotta do it this way and then you have to run, you know, okay, I need you to take some laps here and run. It's your inability. That's straight accountability. Second one is this, and I think this one was really interesting cause I didn't, Tom is a coach from Michigan state. When they asked him about leadership, he said, look, he goes, I really don't like when people talk about leading by example. He goes, it drives me crazy. He goes, I want to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. That's what he said verbatim and he said, uh, he goes, it's because I think lead by example is a selfish way to go. Now the context of what I understood you would begin with saying is he was telling people to go, I'm going to go set an example, but I'm not going to talk to anybody. I'm not going to bring anybody else along. Cause he later on when he goes, I think it really comes down to leadership is more,[inaudible] has become more I than we in this generation and he didn't mean age of people. He meant society today that leadership's more I than we, which goes down to what you're talking about really early in the first session about people who are very vocal and very loud in their leadership and many times it can be about, I want to be seen, I want to be noticed, I want to get credit. He goes, really? He goes, it's really about bringing others along. And I think one of the elements here is, and I think I call that collaborative. Someone might disagree, but I think I've had to work on that because I grew up in an era where top down leadership almost hierarchical leadership was just what it wall was and one of the things that's helped me a lot as someone who's, you know, a generation beyond you guys is learning the power of bringing other people along. Even like in our podcast today, I was really excited to hear your points of view so I can hear and listen. I almost wish the Senate and Congress and the White House would invite in people that are under 25 and say, tell us what you think about how we do things and how we sound and how we come across. I think they'd be in for a shock, but what do you think about this element of leadership that's more about that we're leading, I'm going to read a file with these. I said we're leading by example. Really the power of that is bringing other people along. What do you think about that in sports?

Speaker 5: 30:41

Yeah, I mean, I think when you look at kind of the most successful successful players and athletes, I think they are, you know, bringing our team along. And especially when we start defining, I don't know, I know there's the whole, you know, Lebron, you know, MJ argument that it's so prevalent, careful, but, uh, you know, I think goes into art. What, what type of impact are you making other people, right? You can be, have the best personal example in the world and be the best player in the world, but if you're not bringing the people along with you and yeah, then of that could like look like winning championships, right? If you're, if you're not bringing people along with you, then what value are you really bringing to the table? Um, so yeah, I, I definitely have seen that play in my life with, with sports. I mean, even looking back, the example I shared earlier, uh, you know, helping those guys that were coming up that were, you know, going to be on the varsity football team in the years to come. You know, bringing those guys as they started to almost following that example that I was, I was starting to, um, to kinda practice out and live out for myself. Um, that's where the real value comes right? When it's, it becomes bigger than you and I'm leading by example, but it's bigger than just me and I'm going to bring other people along with me. It's about the leader's role. I think as a teacher is the most important. The leader has to be able to teach the younger players, or maybe it could be even the similar age, but the more experienced guy helping out the less experienced people, I think that's the most important thing. Right? One of the most important things being a leader. Yeah. Um, cause that's kind of setting the stage for the future. Yeah. These are the guys who are going to be the next leaders. You want to make sure that's how you build a program that's good for 30 35 years in any sport is you have a culture where that's what the senior leaders are doing is they're teaching the younger players how to be not just a good player but a good teammate and eventually a good future leader for other younger players. That's kind of how you build that

Speaker 4: 32:40

cycle and then you can, you can have sustained success for decades and decades.

Speaker 2: 32:44

John wouldn't winningest coach in all time in college basketball history would often say, I'm not a coach, I'm a teacher. And I think his mentality was I'm a teacher, that's what I am. And I think the best leaders really do. At some point, I know I've come to this where you sort of, you get older, you stop wanting everybody to look at you or give you credit and you start realizing no, it's empowering other people that makes you really successful. And again, I think that's one of the challenges for leaders today. So the ISIL one is good, but Kevin Ali said something very interesting and it took me a while to understand him, so I'm not even going to tell you what I think about it. I'm going to just put it out there. And he said to me, leadership is a question of am I liked or am I respected? How does that land with you guys? Am I liked or am I respected? And he said, I want to be respected.

Speaker 4: 33:32

Yeah. Yeah. I mean sometimes you probably noticed that too. And some coaches, rope players the wrong way. That happens a lot. Um, and that doesn't necessarily make him a bad coach. If the players are like, this guy is on my back again, I have to work extra hard. I can't believe he's making me come in for extra workouts or pushing me extra hard. I mean, some for some players that works. I think it's about knowing your team though. And that's the most important thing. Wow. Players are code, different teams, different systems, different players are all coach different. I think the best coaches, the best leaders are ones who can kind of figure out what works best for those players. And then adapt. You don't have, if you have one policy or one system and you set that out for every single person who walks in that door, you're going to send some people away and you might rough rubs people the wrong way and you may end up with a little bit of a sort of discord. Yeah, some friction. I think great leaders, they have expectations. So having expectations is, is bigger than, than being liked. You can be the most liked a player, coach, whatever you may be in the world, but if you don't have expectations right, what are you really contributing to the team? Um, I, I look at that as kind of, you know, being willing to go to your comfort zone, right? The growth, the real growth is going to be made out of your comfort zone. If that expectation is out of that comfort zone, you're not going to like it a lot of times. You know, a lot of the times and I think if you're, you're willing to dumb down your expectations to be liked. Yeah. At that point, you know, you're, you're um, you're lowering down your expectations, which at the end of the day is not helping anybody. If your goal, you have a civic goal for the team and you know, the expectation is, is what's gonna get that goal at that point at your, you're not doing the whole team justice. Well

Speaker 2: 35:10

you guys are drawing me into something that is interesting. You're making me think that a great coach then is if I combine with both of you are saying a great coach better be an effective recruiter so you better know what kind of, what kind of program do I have and what kind of kid do I need? Because if you have to pound that kid, then you probably are recruiting the wrong kid because if you've got to always be on his case, meaning there should be the complete capable one. I think in football this position coaches are probably closer to people, the head coach anyway. Right? But basketball's a little different, although it's getting them a little bit more, I think authentic defensive coordinator is specialist in basketball. Yeah. But, um, I, it's funny because when I grew up, um, you, there was much more respect for leadership in general. Like the coach was like it and we, we there like today I see, you know, AAU basketball, like I go, what is that? I don't even recognize that. Cause when I grew up it was like, okay, here's your system and you fit into this system and if you don't fit on the end of the system, you're gonna fit on the bench or fit, fit in the stands somewhere else. And I think that that's changed a lot. Where even with with coach k who used to be under Bobby Knight, I think he's gone with the one and dones more to me. He's changed his system a little bit, which goes to your point, Matt, I recognizing not only the players, but the times you live in and being able to say, yeah, I want to teach these guys, but what do I need to do to be able to facilitate them learning better? Uh, so that sounds like one. Here's tubby. Smith said, look, I grew up on a farm and basically my dad told me it all comes down to doing your job. That's it. That's where he is. I couldn't, I couldn't completely understand what he was talking about, but he said to me, leadership is you do your job. What do you guys think about that one?

Speaker 5: 36:57

I mean, it's embracing your role. I mean, you look at it, you look at a team. I mean, there's no same role on a team. You look at a basketball team, there's five distinctive Ros. You know, if, let's say you have Stephan curry starting to be play dream mom's role, you know, and starting to get, uh, get the key and start rebounding, right? I mean, what are you doing man? We all know, we all know mean that's not what he does. Yeah. Three point lines. Exactly. You know, get, get far beyond that line and do your thing. So, uh, I mean, I think effective teams and effective leaders recognize that, you know, they recognize that the best way I contribute to a team is honing my craft, which is my civic role. Ah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 37:38

Example, think about a guy like Andre Iguodala, right? It's[inaudible] game with Philadelphia like five, six years ago and now he's coming off the bench. He's a defensive specialist. He's kind of a ball distributor. Like you have to adjust your role to the tee. He knows his role now and that's what made him such a key component of those championship teams is he knows I'm not going to go out there and try to score 20 points a game and put up all star numbers. I'm going to go out there. I'm gonna fit into my role on this team and help this team win.

Speaker 2: 38:05

That's cool. Cause he

Speaker 5: 38:08

talk about them winning their first championship. Right. He won finals MVP cause he like defended Lebron. Right. And for a stint, everyone who got finals MVP was the person who defended the prize. But like he, I remember reading an article about he was the player's coach. Like he was Steve Kerr's extension to the team on the court. He embraced, yeah. On the court. He embraced that role of leadership as kind of submitting himself to like, to as defined role to help everybody succeed. And he was rewarded for that, which was really cool. And I think that echoes too, cause I think there's a sense of humility that comes along with that to, to embrace a role that you normally wouldn't have taken in the years past. Wow. In order to, uh, you know, inspire the fact that I'm, I'm willing to take this role even though I may not be what I want may not be what I've done in the past.

Speaker 2: 38:50

All right. I'm going to hit you guys with, uh, we're gonna, we're, we're gonna close out. I'm gonna you get some, some questions. I want you to prepare yourself emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically. Do it. Transcend, transcend the moment. Okay. So we talked all about sports and leadership and I'm going to give you a couple, maybe I'll go for more, but I'm going to give you a couple of situations and say, knowing what you guys know about athletes in college, knowing what you know about sports and how it provides leadership, tell me right now, what are the football players at Maryland doing to handle all they're going through?

Speaker 5: 39:23

Good question. Good question. Good question. I mean, I think there's, when you have off the field stuff, I think that that's gonna you know, have a larger effect in the program, you know, no matter who you are within the program, right. Um, you know, in terms of, I know that there are certain sense of kind of isolating right on the field stuff with, with off the field stuff. And, and I wouldn't even say personal lives. I mean, I think

Speaker 2: 39:52

when you're difficult, is it for an 18, 1920 year old to be watching? Well, I don't know that they're watching, but to know you're on the news. No, there's investigations going on, but then you go out there to play football. I washed the ESPN highlighted them interviewing the coach right after the, the, the interim coach and I was Wa I didn't even pay attention to the coach. I was watching all those players play and I'm going, these guys are 17, 18, 1920. They had nothing to do with anything. They just saw one of their teammates die. And I'm not into accusing anybody of anything, raking a judgement. I'm just saying they just watched their teammate die and now they're back out here playing football. Yeah. What in the world does it take?

Speaker 5: 40:28

Yeah. To manage all that. Yeah. I mean I can even speak to that. One of my teammates, you know, if you're from an area, uh, Teddy Goo passed away in 2014, um, that was the first year of the coaching staff that, that I had for the whole time. My, my 10 year cow. But, uh, I can say, I mean that, I mean, it echoes throughout, like I said, the whole, the whole program to have, I mean, it started going to questions of, you know, what, to what extent is it worth it, you know, winning on the field. Um, I know for me, Ted was actually in my, so we split the whole team up into seven or eight teams a summer competition for our off season program. Yeah. And Ted was in my group, so we had an off season, uh, conditioning workout and to have been right next to him seeing, you know, one of your good friends, uh, you know, pass out and, and you know, ultimately what happened. I mean, seeing him pass away on the spot in front of you. It, I think it rocks everything. You know, what is, what does it really worth? What's, what's our goal

Speaker 4: 41:34

here? You know, what's our goal in, in terms of how far you're willing to go to push ourselves to, to win games. And I think that goes to the whole nother conversation of the amount of pressure that's on these coaches for administration. Um, you know, being these revenue generators for the universities, right? I mean the pressure comes all the way down, you know, from administration to coaches to the players. And it can be tough. I mean it's just, it's hard.

Speaker 2: 41:59

The loss of life. Yeah. It's, it's also, it just shows you these kids that are playing sports or doing a whole lot more than, than other people. Matt, what do you think about this?

Speaker 4: 42:10

So I, I come into this from the media perspective. What, whenever the players in Maryland are asked about this now, now I haven't watched the latest press conference, but I'm pretty sure the way these are only go is they say we're really sorry, like we are sympathies go out to the family. Um, but now it's back to business here. We're trying just to focus on our game. But I mean just as a human watching that you kind of know there's, that's not true. That's still weighing on these players. It has to be, right. I'm like you were saying because the emotional impact of that goes well beyond football. And I think it's about recognizing that yeah, they're going to make a statement that says, yes, we're just going to try to get back to football, you know, try and get back to our back to work here. Um, but you know, you know, that emotional impact is still there and it might be there for a long time. I'd be there for life for some of these players who are in a similar situation like we've mentioned know it's easy to often blame the coaches, but I think to the point I was making earlier, I mean, there's so much pressure on these programs, you know, to do well and to succeed. I think it's, it's really a more systematic issue of what we're seeing with college sports and how much pressure is put on the entire program. Well,

Speaker 2: 43:16

I think about that. You know, when I was young, uh, you know, we had different things happen to kids in school. Um, there's a, there's a leadership I think on these teams. They're seniors oftentimes that step in and help other kids manage it. I think, again, in a sense what I'm saying is sports is a microcosm of life and these kids that play sports get a dose of life. I think I, at least in college, greater than the average student does. I'm not saying other students aren't going off and inventing Google and all that and facing their own stress, but there's this ecosystem of the pressure from the top, the experience of parents having a girlfriend. Sometimes when teams play badly, I often go, I want, they got, you know, this receiver is getting half the yard as you got. I go, I wonder if his girlfriend broke up with him last night. Like I remember I just go, these are kids, you know, and they're shouldering so much weight that I have so much compassion on them and the kids at Ohio state because a lot of them are involved in stuff that is big, big time stuff, but they maybe had nothing to do with or weren't involved at an at, at all. Um, uh, two more things. I'll go for two more. Um, so when, when it comes down to players being paid, do you guys think players should be paid or do you think they should not be paid? Their scholarship is enough. Oh, absolutely. I'm

Speaker 4: 44:32

a pain. I mentioned this earlier that they should get something now. It's a little, it's a little more complicated than just saying, write the checks. Right now there's a, there's a question of how does this work, right? And that there's a lot of questions to be answered there. I don't have all the answers. Um, but I think the answer to is this, cause this is too complicated. How does this work? I don't know. Let's give up, let's not pay them anything is not the right answer. Yeah. I think the right answer is trying to work out something. It's a little complicated. It's actually very complicated, right? You pay every player the same. Do you play every player at every sport the same, right? Do you play, do you pay? How much do you pay per year? You pay freshman differently than sophomores. You play the starters more than the backups. I don't know. I don't know how that works.

Speaker 2: 45:12

You're just saying, look, this is a multibillion dollar industry, right?

Speaker 4: 45:16

Something's got to happen here. People come on. Yeah, something has to happen here. And an answer is not zero.

Speaker 2: 45:22

And I think they've got to look at it as an investment in leadership. I think our country needs leadership. I think we need leadership on all levels. The neighborhoods, uh, community centers, uh, schools. I mean, teachers, I would love to see there be in all colleges that have, you know, division one athletics as like a sports major, a program you enter into. If you don't want to do one of the others and you just learn when you come out. I can either be a coach, a teacher, a sports agent or whatever, and you just channeled right into that. It may not be as complicated as the MBA program, that something where they can go, I actually am using my experience to get me a job. Uh, what were you thinking about paying paid?

Speaker 5: 46:00

Uh, yes. Thank you. It's a definite yes. I mean, it gets very muddy though, you know, when you have different, you have walk ons, you know, then do you pay the walk-ons as well? Then you have your starting quarterbacks. And then what about the guy who comes in, you know, playing gravity watchers has important, but it's not the quarterback and you know, and you look at how the NFL is pays players, obviously the quarterbacks are paid the most. So I think it's a, it's a very, very muddy situation when it comes down to how you do it, don't you? Yes.

Speaker 2: 46:29

This is funny. And I love Google. It's one of my favorite companies, right? But those guys were, uh, graduate students, right? And they were able to start a company and they were able to negotiate their own deals and their own venture. Like, I think it's funny that they can do that. And I understand players, there's a ton of them, but they can do that and that, let's say a quarterback at Michigan, you know, Shay Patterson, he, his number two is gonna be big. I can tell you that right now. And if he plays well tomorrow I this can be flying off the shelves. Yup. Why can't he go out and negotiate and say, Hey, I'm flat out, got my number being used and I'm, I'm going to get this money for this. And I understand that's the complexity you're talking about. Then it gets crazy and all that, but I just think it's a funny thing that a tennis player, a person with a startup can do so many things that football or basketball player can't do.

Speaker 4: 47:20

And honestly I think that's the next step. Of course, paying players, I think that's going to be the next thing we see is players getting some kind of royalty, some kind of, some kind of percentage of the profits of the, the jerseys

Speaker 2: 47:30

sold with their number. They'll sell or they're selling their name on a tee shirt or something. I think that's going to be the next step. When you see the star players start to see some of that money come in and then maybe after that the flood gates open and then we see the left tackle, get the pay he deserves and we see the defensive back on the soccer team get the pay and you can't stop me from moving my youtube channel. Like an athlete a while back. Yeah you're slapped shutting down his youtube channel. I'm like guy sells his Jersey to a fan and then you get suspended for 40 that's the whole house state back in the day. Oh hey well that's the whole tattoo thing. And there are people going crazy cause they got five games suspensions for selling for it's three. That's what rough to, it's all, it's all really rough. I agree with you guys cause it's like I was in the kinesiology building and like I would, I would have the same classes as a lot of the athletes and so I would leave and go to the parking lot to go get my car and go drive off to work. And they're going down to the field. I'm like, and I remember thinking this on my way to my car. I'm like, well I'm thinking I'm going to get paid for work. I don't think they're just, they're taking a right down to the field. I'm taking a left to the parking garage. Like they have to get paid something. You know, and again, it is a complicated issue, but you have to start somewhere cause these guys are, you kind of catered, you kind of mapped up an athlete's Day. Like it starts at six, it doesn't end till like eight you know, that's an insane amount of hours. And again, there'd be people who will say, but they're getting$100,000 or$60,000 a year for an education and other people are not getting that. So they're getting paid. And I don't want to, I mean I don't agree with that perspective, but I think there's, there's an argument to be made, which is why Mac keeps saying it's complicated too. I mean a lot of these guys that have these scholarships, not like better cost equates to graduation. I think that's a key distinction as well. You know, I've, I've plenty of friends who haven't graduated with a full scholarship and I think that's another component of whether it be saying, hey, you have a certain timeframe to finish your degree. Cause I mean when you look at trying to, especially at a place like Berkeley or Stanford, Northwestern now the amount of rigor academically while playing football, I think for some people in their circumstances guaranteed are like 10 years commonly. I've seen people not graduating and then because part of it, part of what I think is, is that schools are making more money than just slip on. I understand that the cows and the Northwestern and the Stanford, you're not making the kind of money that the Alabama and I get all that. But um, part of it is too, people turn on television and they watch you in a row. Bull came and all of a sudden 100,000 kids apply to your school. I mean there's a whole lot more going on here. And then alumni get involved calculable like me as a regular student, I don't bring that much value to that school versus the athletes that they bring out a measurable amount of value to the campus, to the school, to when they open it up. In other words, you see, I went to the elite eight game once a Memphis was playing, I just happened, I wasn't there to watch Memphis particularly, but at Memphis to me didn't seem like a big deal school. Right. To me personally. And I looked down there and, and all these fans, people that looked like they were in their eighties, seventies grandchildren, children. And I went, what happens is when you see a school play, you see their community, you see Evanston, you see Berkeley, you see Anarbor, you know, you see the city of Boston and it makes you for the first time go, oh, I'm a go. They're like, I guarantee you Stanford's applications increased by a lot when they started appearing, uh, on in bowl games and winning ballgames. I'll guarantee you when Pat Fitzgerald got there and Northwestern really started cranking up in the basketball team, looks better that suddenly there are kids who are like, hey, maybe I want to go to Northwestern. I didn't know what it was. Um, so today we've gone through a lot on leadership, a lot on sports and we're going to kind of close it down and just Kinda, I'm going to let these get at one. I want to thank David for connecting us with Matt and a boy. Matt. It's uh, it's been fun. It's been great. It's been fun to talk with you. I could talk with you for about six more hours cause I got, I, I would love to hear more stories about McDonald's and then sneaking in there. Uh, and Caleb, even though I've known you, I haven't known that much about you. So it's, it's exciting. I hope we can get both of you guys on it again and everybody out there. The reason we wanted to talk about sports culture and leadership is, or I think I drove this, is that I just think a lot of people have stereotypes about athletes. And stereotypes about sports that aren't really accurate. And as I alluded to in the talk, go up, go look up, um, Senator Bradley, and he's just one example of I think hundreds, if not thousands of people who played sports and through the experience of sports became really great contributors for leadership in our country. Thanks again for listening, and we'll be back next week with another episode of leads.

Speaker 3: 52:04

Yeah.