Do Happy Work
In the Do Happy Work Podcast, we explore how universal and natural concepts can be applied in leadership and transform the way we view and do work with one goal: To build happy businesses that express who we truly are.
Do Happy Work
You might be an addict
Addiction comes in many forms. In this episode, I speak with returning guest, Rose Lounsbury, a best-selling author, keynote speaker and simplicity coach about society's addiction to overachieving.
Be sure to check out her new book: Achievement Addict
Text us! We'd love to hear your thoughts.
Follow on Linkedin: Olivier Egli
My name is Olivier, and this is the Do Happy Work Podcast. We're back today with a very special episode. Not only because it strikes a very, very deep chord in me, but because I have a returning guest, Rose Lounsberry, is back on the podcast with something completely new. Last time we talked to her, it was about minimalism. And she's out with a new book called Achievement Addicts. I am here to debunk all those things that we have normalized in our toxic work and help you guide towards work that really feels like your own, as an expression of your own, that is effortless and real and authentic. And in all of this, I talk very often about the term addiction, how we're addicted to those little things that we have allowed into our lives and to define our doing and our being and also our work. Achievement is a very, very big keyword for me. And so I'm here today to talk about this and take a little bit of a peek at what that means, addiction in relation to achievement. So without further ado, welcome, Rose.
SPEAKER_04:Well, thanks, Olivier. I'm so happy to be here with you again, uh, talking about this new book. It's been a long journey of writing it, um, but I've already had really great responses from people about the book. And I'm just happy to share it with your listeners because I think, like you said, it dovetails perfectly with the kinds of things you talk about.
SPEAKER_00:And not only that, it also, I said it strikes a chord because I myself, after reading what I read, I identified my past. I saw so much of my past in this without really realizing for a long time that I was an addict. I was addicted to this notion of having to achieve things, you know, to have to achieve myself, to achieve things in my life through my work. And so this is something that, of course, really, really got me very inspired. And I'm very happy today to ask you the crucial question as an author of a yet another book. Why did you write this book? Why you, after what you did before, what made you do it?
SPEAKER_04:Well, it's interesting because my first book was about minimalism and decluttering and simplifying those physical aspects of your life. And one of the reasons that people do that, and I did it, is because it gives you this sense of peace inside. Your space is clearer, you feel clearer, you feel more open. But what I found is that this aspect of decluttering, it actually doesn't just live in the realm of physical stuff because you can declutter all of your excess physical things and have this perfect home environment, and you can still feel really conflicted and burdened and overwhelmed inside. And so I sort of realized that there was this other level of simplicity that I was being called to, which was letting go of some of the excess stuff that I had accumulated in my heart and my mind. And I started working with a coach and he, you know, he and I were talking and he said, This is your next book. He said, Your next book is about this. And it's funny because I think a lot of times the title of a book comes to you at the end, but I had the title of this book before I even wrote it. And I was like achievement addict, because I recognized that my drive to achieve and prove myself through my accomplishments was very much like an addiction. And I also wanted to make sure that if I was going to use the word addiction, which I think is a very triggering word for a lot of us, I needed to make sure that I was using it properly. And so I contacted people who had what we might consider more traditional addictions and they were in recovery, people in recovery from alcohol addiction or heroin addiction or food addiction. And I presented them, you know, I talked to them about their story and I presented them with what I was trying to talk about. And I said, you know, does this seem to you as someone who's been through traditional addiction, does this relate? And they said, Oh, yes. Because what I realized is addiction, no matter what you're using, whether it's food, alcohol, sex, gambling, work, whatever, you're using something to escape your feelings that you don't want to deal with, or it's really traumatic or difficult to deal with. We're using a thing to avoid being in our hearts and in ourselves. And achievement is an interesting one because it's so culturally accepted. It's actually praised, unlike alcohol or drug addiction or gambling addiction. So I just found that to be a really provocative way to kind of go into talking about this, to talk about it as if it was an addiction. And I actually wrote the book as a 12-step journey through recovery. And like 12-step programs, like I read the 12 steps of AA, which are absolutely brilliant if you've never read them. They are the quantification of an emotional and spiritual journey, which is why I believe they've lasted for so long. And so what I tried to do in my own 12 steps, which are my own ones, not the same ones as the 12 steps of AA, I tried to quantify what I went through as I started to untangle and unravel my lifelong addiction to gold stars and A pluses and doing all the things I was supposed to do. And so that's why, that's why I wrote it. It was really for me initially to try to untangle this way of being in my life. But I feel, and the feedback I've received from others is that it's really helping other people who struggle with the same thing as well and maybe didn't have a name for what it was.
SPEAKER_00:So I find this very interesting. And again, for my listeners, there's a concept behind everything you just said that I want to highlight before we move on. You said you wrote that for yourself. And this for me is paramount in understanding our best work because for whatever reason, your journey led you to that book. It led you to that name, it led you to that realization. And I think the best work we do is always the work that we do for ourselves, and then we share it with the world because we know that our story resonates with other people's stories because, in the end, we all have similar needs, but some of us have similar specific needs with regards to our story. And for me, for example, I resonate with it uh because I was a corporate victim. I was I always referred to myself as a corporate junkie, a recovered corporate junkie. Because I, too, besides achievement, also the notion of success and validation and all these things, I ate them up without even knowing that I needed them in my life. And with regards to what you to what you said to the word addiction, I use the word addiction every now and then. And I'm, you know, I'm fairly cool about it because I understand that in the end, it's always the same mental process. It doesn't matter what the thing is, it's always chemically and mentally, it's always the same loop in which we are locked. Even if the thing changes, it's for the brain, it is this loop in which we're stuck. And what resonates with this specific kind of addiction that you talk about, and I find it very interesting that you kind of took the back way, in my opinion. You started with the clutter around the people, and then you go to the clutter inside of the people. And I always go the other way around. I start with the clutter inside of the people, you know, like with the notion of peace of mind, creates uh a perspective of peace around you, so that you know I arrange my world around me once I have arranged my internal self. But the principle is the same. And you also use the word peace, you use the word peace, which I find even more powerful than the word addiction and liberation from uh addiction. I think it is a human essential need, probably the most basic need we have, that we want to be at peace. But nobody really puts a finger on what does it mean to be at peace? What is the cost? What what is the what is the path of peace, not just towards peace, but of peace. And and that is to me, you gave it that name clutter. I I always love that so much, the minimalism that really kind of celebrates that kind of peace. And I'm curious now, you know, that that we know, okay, this is why you wrote that book, but now I want to know what what what was the journey that took you from this outside clutter to this inside clutter. Um, you know, what what was what was that that made you that, you know, realize that and what makes it now so almost like a compendium, like an an encyclopedia, the two books together of decluttering.
SPEAKER_04:I think what brought me to this was, you know, I had done the work on the outside and it was helpful. And then I found myself, though, still not at peace. And and and I think when you were talking about peace, what was interesting to me is I think a lot of us think of peace as like a almost we we look at it as another thing to achieve. Like, let me get to peace. Like we think somewhere down the road there's a land called peace. We just need to show up and then we're gonna be there. And I started to realize, and and the thing is the external decluttering can feel that way because you've got a cluttered closet and you can in two or three hours make it a beautiful closet and you've done it. You can check it off the list, it's done. But an actual journey to internal peace is never gonna be that way because maybe you can meditate for, you know, 10 days straight, or you go on a retreat, or you cut out all the junk food or whatever you do, and maybe you feel at peace for three days and then somebody cuts you off in traffic, or your spouse picks a fight with you, or your brother-in-law starts off with that same argument that they always argue with you about and you write back. And so I think that is why it was so important to write this using a 12-step framework. Because if you have anyone who's ever studied the 12 steps of AA, people say they're in recovery. No one has ever recovered from in the in the language of 12 steps, you haven't recovered from alcoholism. You're in recovery because you're continually working the steps as a template for living. And so that's how I tried to write this because I realized achieving peace is not another achievement to get to. That's not how peace works. I need to create something or work on something that's something that I can return to and come back to. And I will tell you, even this very morning, I worked these steps. I was on whichever step is the my notice and need step, which I think is the third one. Uh, I don't have my book totally memorized yet, but yeah, notice and need is step three. And I was in a state where I was doing so much. I'm actually craziness, craziest thing. I'm running for office here in the state of Ohio for state representative.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_04:Which is a huge thing to do.
SPEAKER_00:But it's a huge thing to do.
SPEAKER_04:And what can happen with this sometimes, and I'm so glad that I'm doing this now, it kind of came to me. This was never the long-term plan. It came to me after writing this book that I was called to do this huge thing that we consider a great achievement, run for office. But the way I'm going about it, because I have this template, this guidebook, when I get into the space where I was this morning, where I'm like, there is so much email, there are so many people I need to call, there are so many DMs and text messages and all these things that I need to do. And I was like, I was kind of running around like a chicken with my head cut off. I said, you need to take a minute and just notice what's going on. And so I took a minute and I got quiet and I got calm and I worked my steps so that I could be more calm in that moment. And that to me is what it looks like to be at peace. It means you're in the midst of your crazy life and whatever you have going on, because we all have that, and you notice you're in that, and you take a minute to really identify what's going on as instead of just as I used to, just go with it and like ride the crazy and then feel really exhausted and burnt out and wonder why.
SPEAKER_00:Wonderful. That's a wonderful thing, uh, and a wonderful moment to kind of like take a breather. Like, I think this is really something we have to take in because I have this conversation all the time with the positivity folks. Okay. There is this notion, it's almost like a subculture within our culture. I'm not fighting it, I'm just not taking part in it. And I'm I advocate actually for people to wake up from it. You know, this this notion where we have to kind of like just like whatever is, you know, just flip it, flip it around right there, but not recognize what it is, not stop and see it for what it is, not create that space. Because in the end, I think, and you will know that better than anyone else, everything in the end has to do with the creation of space. Creating space is the first step towards any kind of expansion of growth. Without space, we always think, right, we can achieve things, but then we also kind of like sabotage ourselves because we never create space within which we could develop. So we are amidst all this noise and this, you know, this turmoil, this racket, and now we're just kind of like engaging in it and have this illusion that somehow within this, our needs for self-worth achievement, realization are going to be addressed, which is almost perverted in its own way because it defies logic. It does not just defy the natural way, it defies logic that that would be possible. It's an illusion, it's it's it's uh it's crazy. But it you know, and I think it's this differentiation between being a reactive person because that's what we usually are. We give in to uh the triggers of the world, and then without being conscious, without creating the space within which we could respond, we react. And being responsive, which requires for us to first carve out that space within which we could actually give and bring something into the situation, we then just jump right at it, right? And so nothing ever changes, right?
SPEAKER_04:Right, right. And I think you know, you talked about positivity, and I think something that maybe your listeners can can take away from this that might be an actual like actionable step. And I have had people text me, you know, who've read the book who talk about this step. The that step three is notice and need. And all I say is you when you find yourselves in that vortex of all the things to do and all the pressures and all that, you know, the craziness, and we start to feel really overwhelmed, that's not the time to be like, tell ourselves it's gonna be okay and and focus on the positive. That's the time to like get quiet and ask ourselves, what do we notice? That's making the space. And like if you can notice, like, okay, and and it could even be what's no, what are you noticing around you? Your dog barking, the the birds, does your stomach hurt? Like noticing physical, observable things. And then if you can go deeper, what do you notice inside? You know, is your heart beating? Are you know what really hard? Like physically, what are you experiencing inside? And then if you can go the next step, the second question is, what do you need? Because our bodies are always trying to tell us something that we need, but most of the time we aren't listening because we think, oh, we need to get all the email checked and we need to, you know, get back to this person, and we need to, you know, show up at this meeting on time. We we think we know what we need, but a lot of times if you can get quiet and you make that space and you ask yourself what you notice, sometimes that's enough. But then, like, what do you need? Often the answer for me when I when I'm able to do this is you need to lay down for 10 minutes. Sometimes you need to cry.
SPEAKER_00:That's so important. That, yes, exactly. And and I will say it again, because what you just described is this difference between looking outside and allowing the outside to create your reality, right? You're reactive to the emails, the world, the fashions, the trends, the the markets that swing around, and now you're actually just a reflection of your surroundings. Whereas when you shift your gaze inward, there's a whole world inside of you, there's a whole universe, there's the abundance, there's a fountain of abundance speaking through us, and I will not rest until we normalize at early age at school, and I'm talking early school years, the ability to rely on yourself, to look within first, look within first before looking outside of you. In the morning when I wake up, there is still, see, that's also addiction. I have this, I have this, you know, kind of compulsion. I would like to grab my phone. I would really like to see what's going on. What is going on? But I don't ask myself, well, what is going on with me? Like, what is the first emotion I wake up to would be a very, very important thing to know. Yes. That is something that you drag with you into your day, it's something that kind of sets the context, it sets the baseline. If we do those things, they just operate in the background autonomously. They're like alter the way you you walk, you talk, you do things, you react to things. And and I find like mental hygiene is really something that is so important that it's not being taught. We teach children and grown-ups how to move in society, how to be someone, how to uh achieve status and clout and importance and relevance, make our parents proud, all these external things have a nice house and you know, two cars, and a wife or a spouse or a husband, all these things, a family, but just to be at peace and okay and knowing yourself, where is that education? Where does that happen? Where does that take place? And what is the price we pay for not learning it ever?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, those are such powerful questions that you're asking. And those were the kinds of questions that led me to write this book. And it's interesting that you you kind of started with the compulsion to check your phone in the morning. And I think many of your listeners can probably relate to that. One of the early things in my recovery from this addiction to achievement was setting boundaries with my phone and figuring out how to actually do that. I have a whole chapter on uh technology and sleep because I found that those two things were for me, and I think for many um high achieving people, those are the two things that become most problematic is making sure that you sleep and you rest. And how do you control this little rectangle that we all have? And um it's a really there's a I won't tell the whole story here, but there's a whole story of a camping trip that I took with my. family that kind of taught me a really big lesson about you know what's most important to me is it is it my family my children and having this experience with them or is it making sure that my Instagram followers get to watch all this on my Instagram story. Which of these is more important to you, Rose? That was sort of the question that I came up with. And it was this really like almost like horrifying moment when I realized I was choosing to spend more energy making sure my Instagram followers were following along and that they were pleased with everything they were seeing than being there in that moment with my family. And that kind of led me to do this this experiment that I got from a friend where I plugged my phone into the wall for 48 hours and I used it like a real phone. And I grew I was born in 1981. So a real phone when I was growing up was plugged into the wall and you could use it for phone calls. That's what it did. And so I used my phone for 48 hours as a real phone. That was the most trans one of the most transformative aspects of this journey for me was freeing myself, choosing to do this channel and free myself from that constant need to interact, like, text, check what's going on, as you said. And anyone who's struggling with phone addiction and so some of the changes I made in my life from that is my phone now is never charged in my bedroom. Like it charges in the kitchen downstairs so that I can't check it when I wake up. So I had and I also realized that if I want to go on a walk, a lot of times I'm using my phone as my as my clock, my watch. And so I'm like just buy a watch you know I bought a watch and I bought an alarm clock which you can get for less than 30 or 40 dollars.
SPEAKER_00:You can get those two things and those two things made a huge difference in that phone addiction it's interesting how like what you just explained with technology it's kind of like something where we've become we became victims of the technology drivers like the big brands the big big corporations are trying to make all our lives locked in one device because that gives them control, right? That gives them full ownership over the experience. So the more this thing is capable of doing the more they own us their own our attention and I think attention is probably the most important commodity nowadays it's something that uh during my two decades in advertising I was paid to fight for uh to attract people's attention to extract people's attention from uh their lives and turn it into hard cash and and that is a problem that we have normalized that understanding that transactional understanding that it's okay to sell our time sell our attention for money for what and for what a value whatever value we get in return the comfort of whatever this thing brings is worth our attention whereas people like us are trying to help people to reclaim the responsibility over the way they spend their attention and now in closing probably the question of all questions to me the the word itself um achievement achievement what is the secret behind a natural non-toxic understanding of achievement how can we better our understanding how can we redefine achievement so it's actually not hurting us but on the contrary supporting us on our beautiful journey as a human being that is a fantastic question.
SPEAKER_04:And that was one that I wrestled with at the beginning and so I kind of addressed that in the introduction of the book because I talk about overachievers. The the subtitle of the book is The Overachievers 12 step guide to peace, presence and a life beyond doing and so I thought okay what well what is overachieving and I specifically did not Google it or look it up because I didn't want anybody else's definition. I wanted my own. And I thought well okay there's overeating and there's all these other overthings but overeating you can scientifically calculate that like based on your body mass index and your metabolism and the amount of calories consumed you can pretty much say well like this is overeating and this is not. It's much more easily regulated or even overdrinking. You know, at a certain point certain people like their blood alcohol content can be measured and we can say those people are overdrinking. But overachieving there's no objective measurement of this and so I came up with this idea where I talked about fulfillment like there's task fulfillment and then there's personal fulfillment. We have to do tasks right so for example if you were throwing a birthday party for a child to fulfill the task of throwing a birthday party for a child you probably need a cake maybe some balloons a present and a song there you go you got a birthday party you've fulfilled the task if you've done those things but you can go beyond that right you could you know hire a magician you could make all your own homemade decorations you could bake the cake and decorate it from scratch.
SPEAKER_00:Don't we all know people like that.
SPEAKER_04:Right. But here's the thing right that could add personal fulfillment for those people. So beyond task fulfillment if you do more and it personally fulfills you and it lights you up, you're not overachieving. But what I think overachieve when it happens is when we've completed task fulfillment, we've done what's required to accomplish the task but we continue to do more not out of a sense of personal fulfillment from doing those more things, but because we feel that by doing them somehow that makes us better. It makes us more acceptable it makes us more loved by others it pleases other people and that's where we are working really hard and we feel burnt out and we feel overwhelmed and we feel exhausted it's that's overachieving because you're going beyond the task fulfillment without gaining any additional personal fulfillment from it.
SPEAKER_00:Could we say that um in achieving tasks for example there's a threshold where once that threshold is reached the task is done now all the additionally exerted energy is something that we use in order to kind of you know fulfill a need, an emotional need in us that we hope to somehow satisfy but of course in vain because that task has nothing to do with that hole that we're trying to fill.
SPEAKER_04:We could say that however I think there are certain people we're going beyond the task fulfillment so let's say you are you love creative baking right it is so exciting to you you love to bake and you love to make elaborate beautiful things you could go beyond task fulfillment of like baking a cake and you could make it way beyond what anyone else would do. But if that fills you up because that expresses your creativity it's not in my mind that's not overachieving because you're not trying to fulfill a need you're trying to express yourself.
SPEAKER_00:But I would it the only thing that I would say to this is that if you understand that that's a need you have then it is not something you must achieve like achievement to me is literally there's a task list of things that need to be done. You know like basically like the base of the Maslovian pyramid like the needs that need to be you know accomplished. Yeah but beyond that what we do is more like self-achievement. And I think nature has a clear response or a clear answer to um what is achievement. Like in in nature achievement it's just like celebrating the moment being in the present as the person who you are if the person who you are is passionate about baking then giving yourself into baking a hundred thousand percent is self-achievement. You are literally just following your heart so that is not really the metric of oh I gotta work through my task list to me it's almost like a different thing. It's almost like okay uh I have three phone calls to make this morning because otherwise my landscaper will not know when to show up I mean it's it's hard facts it's factual it's it's objective truth um so we can work through them but to do then more around that worrying for example I think have sorrow and worry about things you cannot control and now trying to somehow control them beyond your range of control to try to give yourself more into it than is possible or like healthy it's when I think we get into this toxic cycle but me for example I don't have to do these podcasts I need to do these podcasts. My heart wants to get this message out it wants to do these things and I put a lot of work into it and I I don't have the sense that I am achieving anything because it's not a destination but I am achieving myself because I'm just celebrating what is true to me. And I think that is kind of like the difference between the person that bakes in order to like the children's birthday that is a clear destination at four o'clock the children are going to arrive and that cake needs to be baked and the things need to be hung and the person that is just involved in baking where there's no destination there's just a celebration of being engaged in with the ingredients and baking processes and heat and cold and flour and whatnot which for me is like it's like magic. It's like the idea of achievement is kind of like gone.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah yeah because I think achievement achievement itself like as you're pointing to I think achievement itself can have a bit of a negative connotation yet it's something that we all must do like we must achieve things. And so you know that's why I really didn't want to look up the definition of what it was or what someone else said it was because I think it's a word we kind of can claim for ourselves, right? We can claim like what does achievement look like to us and what then would overachievement look like to us? How would we individually know that we were moving you know beyond the realm of the of calling the landscaper and we were doing more or we were worrying and now it's not healthy. Because calling the landscaper is fine. Yeah but working for the next three hours over whether or not they're going to show up or did I did I hire the right landscaper all that you know that's not yeah it's I think in in relation to what you stand for and you will always stand for that for me.
SPEAKER_00:So you can't change that even if you write a third book oh no it's this idea of like at some at what point does the idea of achievement become clutter? At what point does it weigh you down? At what point does it take away chisel away at your freedom at what point does it rob you of your peace of mind and I think that's also you know like with um certain kinds of labor I I'm the first one to admit that sometimes you have to do a job you don't like sometimes you have to flip burgers for a while but you have to understand that that is just a temporary thing. It's something that you have to do in order to have the freedom to move on to actually serve your happiness. For now when you're at this base of that pyramid you have to take care of the needs you have to call the landscaper you have to flip the burger to pay the rent you have to bake the cake so that the children have a cake to eat. But then at some point comes a moment of self-realization where the idea of achievement to me kind of dissolves into this like what is it that I want what is it now that I have the freedom now that I have decluttered my life enough what is there in me that I have to give as you say also you know I always remember that uh you know conversation we had with the towel yeah something that we tried to implement we're we're we're we're we're getting better what it's like towels everybody always wants to talk about the towels people your listeners can go back and listen to that episode if they want to know about towels I mean as I said before uh we could go on for hours I'm sure we could and someday I hope to come out to the West Coast and we could sit down and have a very long coffee and we can talk about all of these things. Yeah it's frustrating you know uh you have these magical people out there like yourself and then you get a couple of minutes with them and you have all these things to share and they say something and it lights you up and I remind I want to remind my listeners also like it's not false to create your bubble where you are with the people that nurture you it's important setting boundaries where you are surrounded by people that challenge you that speak your language you know that push you buttons in a good way it's important it's something now I had to learn I used to be a man of everyone like I let everyone into my circle and I was everywhere all the time I also had to declutter. Yeah and I declutter so much that I don't have many guests on my show but when I do I just love them.
SPEAKER_04:Oh well thank you Olivier I feel very honored that I'm one of the people that you allow into your sacred circle of this podcast and your friendship.
SPEAKER_00:You definitely are and I was so curious when I see that you wrote this book after the other book because I I'm wondering now someone who's never read one of your books which book should they read first well here's what I would say I would say what are they struggling with the most in their life if you're struggling with physical clutter and that is the most presenting symptom that you have you should read my first book which is called Less Minimalism for Real.
SPEAKER_04:If the clutter is where you are that's where you are if the most presenting problem in your life is the sense of constantly feeling behind, overwhelmed, I'm never doing enough I don't feel like I'm good enough why I'm doing all these things and yet I still feel bad. You go to bed every night and you just feel overwhelmed and you wake up and you feel overwhelmed that's probably a means you should start with my second book. I think both of them would be helpful and those symptoms of feeling overwhelmed crossover between the physical clutter and the the the internal clutter but you know if the physical clutter is an issue and if if that really is where you are you should start with the first. If physical clutter is not a huge issue I mean we've all got it like there's crap on my desk right now. Yeah but if it's not like keeping you if the clutter's not really keeping you from living your best life right now but you still are feeling overwhelmed then I think you should start with my second book.
SPEAKER_00:I would just very very slightly challenge that in a cluttered desk is a cluttered mind. And how often have I told myself nah you know I'm good with all this stuff around me then I took the time to really really really look into it and realize nah it is actually bothering yeah yeah so who takes the time in their busy lives to just stop and look around and be like oh my god my garage you know oh my god my attic my living room whatever why is there you know who does that and this you know just this this introspection of like what's going on in my life and in my immediate life around me yeah so I would I personally I would I personally would read your second book first and your first book second.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah I think it's so interesting I think we come at this we're coming at the same problem from different beginning points which is so fascinating.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah but in the end it's all it's all one right it's all one it's all the same it's it's a concept what is it called again um of correlation as above so below as below so above you can say the mind is below the maternal energy the creation where everything comes from the creativity but then above there's the expression which is the manifestation of the things around us and the world and all that so the the trunk of the tree or the crown and the root they're all in connection they speak to each other they're in communication so clutter is clutter it is freedom is freedom and peace is peace on that note achievement addict they can get it on Amazon how can they reach out to you if someone has a question or you know wants to know more about what you do yeah so um you can go to achievementaddict.com um or you can go to my website which is roseloundsberry.com and that's l-o n sbury.com roseloundsberry and I'm also on social media so if you go to at rose loungeberry on Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn uh you will find me there as well wow so many ways of contacting you with this little rectangle that I know I know I can just call you on your phone that's plugged in the wall they could I haven't plugged it into the wall in a while and sometimes I think when I start to feel a little addicted to it again I'm like maybe it needs to go in the wall for 24 hours. I will try that for two hours we will leave all your contact information in the show notes. Thank you again Rose it's not been the last time I'll see you again soon I hope thank you Olivier
