Redefining Masculinity and Balancing Energies with Joshua Wenner

Meet Joshua Wenner, our multifaceted guest who transformed harrowing experiences into a journey of healing and resilience. In this episode, Joshua shares his deeply personal story, including how he found a path to recovery and purpose through working with Tony Robbins. He now dedicates his life to helping high-achieving individuals and first responders tackle grief and trauma. Joshua discusses his upcoming film, "The Gift of Grief," which captures his decade-long quest for emotional healing.

Joshua and I also tackle the complex issue of modern masculinity, exploring how the loss of traditional rites of passage has distorted male identity. We discuss how this has impacted generations of men, often leaving them without strong role models and stuck in extremes—either passive or overly aggressive. The episode also provides insights into how women are navigating these dynamics in their relationships, often struggling to find men who balance kindness and strength. Joshua's expertise sheds light on the qualities that define an integrated man, such as integrity, emotional regulation, and a strong sense of purpose.

In our final segments, we delve into the delicate interplay of masculine and feminine energies within relationships. From practical parenting strategies to understanding gender imprints, Joshua offers invaluable advice on fostering authentic connections. We also explore how women can embrace their natural essence to inspire and attract more supportive partners. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom on emotional freedom, authenticity, and the transformative power of balancing our inherent energies.

Follow Joshua on IG here.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the show. Today I have a really exciting guest, joshua Winner. I first heard Joshua on Andrea Crowder's podcast and I really loved what he had to say. I've been following him on social media and he works with thousands of people from all over the world high performing CEOs, high achieving men and women, fire, police, military, special forces, entrepreneurs and couples wanting to deepen and or heal their relationships. Also, individuals with mental health issues. He spent a decade in the men's work, grief and trauma fields and he now specializes in helping high-achieving men, women and couples to be emotionally free, create meaningful relationships, to reach their potential, conquer desire and addictions and live a deeply meaningful and fulfilling life.

Speaker 1: 0:57

He also has a film coming out December 6th called the Gift of Grief, which documents his 10-year journey healing from the loss of his brother, and so today we dive into a lot of things about masculine feminine energy. I had a lot of questions, just being someone who's been stuck in her masculine for a very long time, and I've been working on as you know if you listen to my podcast working on leaning more into my feminine, and so he was just an amazing guest to have on, and so he was just an amazing guest to have on. We also talk about how to prepare our sons to be in their masculine and positive ways and all been through I don't think you and Andrea talked about that. Sounds like you've lived like a lot of lives in this lifetime, so I would love for you to just share a little bit about your background and then what you do for the people who might not know who you are. What you do for the people who might not know who you are.

Speaker 2: 2:04

Yeah, if I were to try to give a cliff note version of a background is I was more, I'd say. I grew up as a more traditional man and sports, athletic, military and was around a lot of death early on and was kind of a guy that was comfortable to walk in and say, hey, you know, like I would calm people down and allow them to just kind of handle the situation. So it wasn't, it wasn't I. I interpreted it as not not being as big of a deal. It was dramatic and painful but emotionally I could just navigate it. And then I had an experience in 2007 where my brother came to live with me, asked me for help He'd gotten into drugs and shooting heroin and I told him no and two days later he went back and died of an overdose and that really like put me on my my journey. And so I initially like cried the day I found out and then I put it all in a nice little box, went back, led the service, put my head down and went to work. And then, six months or so later, 2008 hit and came home one day to find my business partner run off with my girlfriend and take the company. So I lost business partner Girlfriend is my best friend at the time too. I'd funded the company on credit cards so I had to go through bankruptcy and then I ended up in jail. So there's like a whole number of things that ended up happening that really kind of broke me. That led me on this journey and so, uh, I went to go speak as a speaker and trainer with tony robbins. I wasn't a guy to sit in the mech, I was like who's the best in the world? I'm just going to go become the best at what I can do. Thought I fixed myself over a couple years of training with tony and really had just become kind of an empty shell. Not because his methodology doesn't work, it just wasn't for grief, it was for like changing habits, patterns, kind of a different set.

Speaker 2: 3:49

And people started showing up around grief and trauma and I was like I'll help you and then failed pretty miserably and realized I didn't have the tools. And so then I started a documentary and researching grief like maybe I don't understand about grief, and along the journey started interviewing grief and trauma experts, realized well, initially I was interviewing them to try to help other people and then realized I was the guy that hadn't healed my grief and so that led me down a long journey of putting myself back together again and in doing so, started helping men. And I spent a long time doing men's retreats, taking men in the mountains, doing really messy emotional resilience retreats where we would help men traditionally like harder men, like military, fire police, military break down the hard armor to get into the soft hearts and feel and express some of their deepest pain to put them back together again. And then I got into first responder work and I've been training fire police, military to learn to come home to their families so tools to deal with grief and trauma to come home to their families.

Speaker 2: 4:51

And now what I've been doing is coaching. So I've been coaching more high-achieving men, women and couples to really it's all about grief and trauma. I don't come from a really healthy personal relationship, which a lot of people do, but I find the tools around grief and trauma are what blocks most relationships and so it's a relationship with ourself because we can't feel our heart. So when you can really get into your own nervous system, you're getting present. And then when you can do some of the past grief and trauma work, it opens your relationship with your heart and in doing so, the biggest benefit I see is in intimate relationships, because it's all around the heart and so we're able to actually have deeply fulfilling relationships when we can build a deeper relationship with ourselves, around our hearts.

Speaker 1: 5:35

I love that. I've never actually thought about, even though it makes so much sense, how grief would block that for relationships, because I also lost my brother about nine years ago and like everybody was crying, sobbing and of course I was like in so much pain but I like I wasn't. I don't know, I didn't have any feelings in the moment, but it took me years to finally like process that. So, yeah, that makes so much sense.

Speaker 2: 6:01

I'm so sorry about your brother. What was his name?

Speaker 1: 6:04

Ryan, thank you, sorry about you, stu.

Speaker 2: 6:08

Yeah, I get it.

Speaker 1: 6:09

Yeah, what was your brother's name?

Speaker 2: 6:12

Jeffrey Jeffrey yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:14

It's. Yeah, I still think about him all the time. He's always in my dreams and I have a son, and I actually named his middle name's Ryan after my brother.

Speaker 2: 6:27

Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mind visits in the dreams in many, many ways. He's constant, his presence is constantly around, which is nice.

Speaker 1: 6:32

Yeah, no, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing all of that, and so I had mentioned to you most of my the women that I work with have come from, like I came from trauma, a lot of abuse, all of that. A lot of them are dealing with that as well narcissistic abuse, and so none of us have really experienced, I don't think, yet an integrated man. I think that's what I've heard you mention like. I would love for you to just explain that so we kind of understand what that looks like. Yeah, from your perspective yeah, I'm happy to.

Speaker 2: 7:03

Yeah, it's a. It's a very common thing and I see it's not just with women but it's with men as well. And there's a little bit of background. We used to have rites of passage. So when we were in tribes, the men were typically taken around 13 from the mothers and they were taken out with the men and you went out with the whole combination of all the men on like a hunting journey for about 18 months 12 to 18 months and during that time you were, there was a clean break from mom. So prior to that, mom raised you and around 13, there was a clean break, 13 to 16. And then the men went off with the boys and there was there was you learn from the men? So you learned they would bring all these stories around the fires from their elders back and they would teach you how to be a man over these stories. And then there was a rite of passage experience where you lost a tooth or you had to kill an animal or you had to do this thing to prove yourself, and then there was an energetic shift that you were now a man. But you were taught through that rite of passage of a transition to go from adolescent to man, and then, when you came back to the tribe, you were looked at by everyone as a man.

Speaker 2: 8:02

And the industrial revolution, all the men went to work and we lost rites of passage, and so we're multiple generations of men being raised primarily from their mothers and us, imprinting, as a man, what my mom liked or didn't like about my father, and then I only got to see little bits of my father as he came home, because it was more traditional roles back then. And so what did I see him? Tired, angry, frustrated, emotionless, and so instead we built these kind of jaded viewpoints of masculinity. Is you're either the weak, passive man, or you're the powerful man that consumes but is more in like his savage man, is what I refer to it as. So you have the savage man, that's powerful, but or you have the good man let's call it that's weak, and it's like you choose.

Speaker 2: 8:47

So what most of our households are raised in is men choose one of these two roles, because that's what most of society shows us, even in politics, and, like you, see these roles playing out, and so men choose one of these roles, and then oftentimes we're missing integration, which integration would be the intersect of let's call it a good man by his values and systems. But he's got a backbone, meaning the way that he gains power is through his authenticity, and so he's not trying to consume or take for himself, he's actually trying to. He's in a place of service, so he's his goodwill in the world is to serve to uplift everything in his life. But he's really strong on his boundaries, his values, his self-respect, his self-love. So just want to give a little context to that.

Speaker 2: 9:31

So men are missing guidance. So there's a lot of men without fathers or the one side, and we either take the role of the what our father was, or we go the opposite. And then women, I find, are also missing examples of healthy, integrated men. So oftentimes they're like I don't want the pleaser or the good guy, not that there's a pushover, so I'll choose the asshole. And then they're like but I don't like. So they're kind of ping-ponging, ponging back and forth, and oftentimes integration feels a little gentler. And so oftentimes I find, when women are first starting to discover what integration feels like, they'll mistake integration for weak and because they've assumed masculine is actually savage and so they don't know the difference to that. So it's a different texture, the main way you can see it is that integrated man will have his boundaries and I'll be certain and firm and clear in who he is versus the guy that's still in his like pleaser role, will just be trying to please you constantly.

Speaker 1: 10:30

And that's how you can start to discern the difference. Okay, that's super helpful because, yeah, I, I totally understand that, because I feel like I used to go for very masculine but then they were assholes, like weren't, weren't super nice, they weren't integrated at all, and so and then I would try to date like a nice guy, and then I just wasn't integrated at all, and so, and then I would try to date like a nice guy, and then I just wasn't like attracted.

Speaker 2: 10:48

So it's like a middle, middle ground kind of yeah, think of the middle ground is like he's there to serve and he wants to elevate, he wants to give to you, but he's firm and that's what'll make you trust him, because you don't. You don't trust the man that doesn't have boundaries just as much as you don't trust the other savage man because he's all about. When you talked about narcissist or self-consuming, that's a little bit. Usually on the more savage side is they're either on the more narcissistic side of things or, which also comes from trauma, or they're just not coming from a place of service. Right, it's like there's not emotional regulation.

Speaker 2: 11:20

So some more aspects or qualities of an integrated man he's, he's striving to be in integrity with his words and actions and he'll take ownership. So, hey, we all make mistakes, but he'll immediately take ownership or he'll do it fairly quickly to take ownership of where he's screwed up and what he's going to do to correct it. He's able to get emotionally regulated with himself so he's able to take ownership. So he's not in a blame game or a gaslight or narcissistic place where he's able to say I'm, we're co-creating this from a fully conscious place. A couple other aspects I'm thinking he's got a strong vision and purpose, so he's leading, but he's not a pushover. Right? It's like he's very serving and wants to support, support and serve, but he's not a pushover.

Speaker 1: 12:02

So just a couple textures of that as well yeah, no, no, that's super helpful, and so my son. I have him full time, and so do you have any like? I know there's other moms who might be listening in the same situation, but do you have any like maybe a few tips that us moms can do to help our sons be more integrated?

Speaker 2: 12:23

Yeah, it's a great question. So I would be investigating as a, as a woman, investigating your views on men, because they're imprinting your likes or dislikes based on who they're becoming to get your love and attention. So so, as an example, a personal story my growing up and I had to do a lot of work to uncover this, but my mom didn't like my dad's anger and he's a Vietnam you know Vietnam vet but he does have a lot of anger and so his anger or his sexual advances my guess is he wasn't creating intimacy or safety because of some of his anger and then the way that that would show up is she would constantly push away his sexual advances. So as a child I linked up my sexual energies wrong and my anger is wrong. So it just gives examples. Well, if I suppress that I was a pleaser for a long time because I couldn't be angry, because I didn't want to upset mom right, or I had to hide my sexual energy, which showed up as a porn addiction which I had to do a lot of work on to like re-invite those things into my life. So oftentimes we imprint based on mom.

Speaker 2: 13:25

So if you can get really clear on finding the ways that you appreciate men as an example, and so a lot often women have been hurt because we've caused a lot of pain and so their view can be jaded, and so what they don't realize is they're almost saying men are bad and then the boy's going I'm bad. So so we're. What are the parts of a man that you're maybe shaming or not liking versus learning to appreciate? So I'd say that's one of the big pieces is as men can be really supportive and they want to help and they can be very generous, and there can also be some men who aren't, so it's so, it's the language is really important instead of like men are.

Speaker 2: 14:01

Some men are right, some men are like. That's just a little distinction. But it'd be like a man saying women are this way and you're like, but not me. But it's like oh, there's some women that are not healthy, there's some women that are healthy and I think, striving to be a gentleman, but also making sure he's got boundaries, making sure that he's got self-respect, making sure that he stands up for himself, which boys are a little different than women and are a little rambunctious, right, like, a young boy is going to be crazy. He's going to like, right? There's a really good book actually by Alison Armstrong, called the Keys to the Kingdom, and she talks about stages men go through and there's one that she calls through pages when they're young boys, to like in their mid twenties, where they want to be, they want to be useful, so, so, and they kind of have a little bit of their egos, developing where they want to be heroic.

Speaker 1: 15:01

So if you can give them heroic roles and really see and validate who they are and how they show up in the world, it's going to make them feel amazing. What can we do? So I asked him if he wanted to help me clean my car out. He loved it. Then he came and helped me clean my office and he kept saying I'm so strong, I'm carrying out all the trash. I could tell it just like lit him up where my daughter, my nine-year-old she, would be like I don't want to help, but like he loves, and so it was really. That's funny that yeah well.

Speaker 2: 15:25

Well in that and if you notice, and when he's saying that you're like, you are so strong, thank you so much, look how, look how well you did this job like if you're. We work on praise and appreciation. Women typically you're looking for like safety, right, and so it's we're. We're slightly different praise and praise and safety, so we're just slightly different in in our like. Women need a lot more emotional safety, right and also physical safety. We didn't. We need a lot more praise and appreciation. So you'll probably notice, if he asked him for help and give him a job and then you validate and praise and appreciate him, we'll stand up a little pronger. He may put his arms up and that's him being like I'm what else do you want me to do? And you'll get a much bigger response out of him because he feels useful yeah, yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1: 16:09

Okay, that just felt very intuitive to do, but now knowing that that like I can do that even more with them, so and they're going to be.

Speaker 2: 16:16

They're going to be adventurous and risky and get into trouble and get dirty.

Speaker 1: 16:19

It just kind of goes with the masculine he, like, is always doing things where I'm like, oh my god, this is so dangerous, so I'm I'm trying not to like take that away from him, but also just saying like let's make safe decisions, let's just think about this like what could happen, you know? Oh, it's funny that's smart.

Speaker 1: 16:38

yeah, and speaking of allison armstrong, that was one of my questions actually I know you were reading one of her books recently and I love her, her work. I actually haven't read Keys to the Kingdom yet, but she talks about turning princes into frogs and I would love to just hear your perspective on that, because I feel like I had that issue where I would date someone. They seemed great. Then all of a sudden I felt like the man. I felt like everything switched and then I looked back and realized like I was the common denominator and that I am very I like to control, to feel safe. So, yeah, I would just love to hear your perspective on that.

Speaker 2: 17:15

I love your awareness in that. By the way, that's probably one of the first areas that I'll just start in is I don't men have a lot of work to do. I will totally own. We got a lot of work to do and we are actively working on it and it's a process and I find, because of the hurt we've caused, oftentimes women will blame men. So I find then there's no way to solve it because you're not resourced and there's nothing you can do about it. So the ownership piece is like what am I doing?

Speaker 2: 17:43

Alison Armstrong's work is based on the premise that a man is responding to you, so based on, what you're doing is what he's responding to. So with that it gives a very different approach to a woman. That's turning a frog into a prince versus a prince into a frog. The basic premise is that in the beginning she's very acknowledging, oftentimes, or he's courting her and she's appreciating him, she's praising him and then, as things go a little bit deeper, a woman often will speak to a man as she would speak to a woman, because women respond very differently than men. For example, she's in his, she uses an example of criticism, like a woman will use criticism and another woman doesn't like to hear it and she'll change her behavior based on the criticism because she doesn't want to feel that, even if she doesn't like it, versus men won't. So, like a man feels criticism is like I'm not going to do it all together. So so oftentimes a woman, instead of leaning more into feminine qualities which was we already kind of hint on praise and appreciation instead they move into saying what we're doing wrong, and then the more that that starts happening, the less a man wants to do, because he doesn't want to be wrong all the time. And we're also just very different. Like a woman's brain is very multitask based. She tends to see everything but the thing that didn't get done. Or when she wants something she thinks she's coming to express like, hey, I just think we're loving attention. But oftentimes how it's framed is you're not doing this, and so then we're like if the last thing we want to do is fail. And so we're like if I'm, if I'm failing and I can't do it right, where can I succeed at? And we'll often go other places where we feel like we're winning, and so a lot of her work is saying like how can I focus on one, knowing the stages of where a man's at, because if he's in a work, if he's in his Prince phase, his work is going to be priority.

Speaker 2: 19:29

It's kind of like women in their hormones. If I can understand a woman's hormonal cycle and I track it, then I know where she's at and I'm not as reactive if she's in every woman's different. Some aren't as reactive hormonally but I've had some ex-girlfriends that I'm like Whoa and I'm like, oh, I've learned. Like there's horny week, happy week, hungry week and fuck you week. So I'm like I know where we're at on the track. If it's fuck you week, I'm like she's got to pass all week. I'm not going to react to what she says, I'm just going to love on her no matter what during those weeks. And I don't have problems If I listen to the words. We're in conflict, we're fighting, so it's. That's allowed me to have more compassion for, like, what a woman goes through and men go through seasonal changes in their stages of development. So if you understand it, that's really helpful to go where's this man at? So, one, you know what stage he's at. And then, two, if you want him to show up more deeply, then you learn to use praise appreciation also like having your own passions.

Speaker 2: 20:26

A lot of women lose themselves in relationship. So instead of still keeping their own passions and excitement and alignment and self-care and self-respect, they lose themselves in the relationship. And then then they're wondering why there's nothing new to talk about or he's not inspired by her. Because she has. She's kind of lost her passions and her sense of aliveness. So think about it like this how does a woman her sense of aliveness? So think about it like this how does a woman cultivate her energy so she's got more aliveness, more vitality, more radiance, like what are the things that fill her up? And if she's filling up her bucket with her passions, if she's loving on herself, then she feels really good. Which is that vibrancy? And then how does she then get really receptive?

Speaker 2: 21:05

And so I'd say probably the primary trait that I see is receptivity. So what that looks like is how deeply can you see a man and how he moves through the world, just like we talked about your son, like, oh, I noticed I gave him this trait, he sits up really high. And how do I really acknowledge him for that and praise it? Like that's to me. Receptivity is like look at you, go. Like how am I using my feminine energy to give that from a place of an offering, like, let me give some of that nurturing energy to you. Based on how I'm seeing you and and if a woman can get really, um, really good at this, I'd say this is the primary thing I see most men needing is we love to give and it's actually honorable in men's code, like that's what is honor.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Is we want to give, we want to serve, but if it's not received, I mean imagine trying to give a gift and not only is your gift not felt, but then you're picked apart for what you did wrong. What happens is you stop wanting to give your gifts because you're like, well, they're not seen anyway, and then this is picked. So you just start to shut down eventually, to be to kind of become like avoidant, not wanting to do anything. You don't want to do any of the gifts because it was done wrong. So you're like where can I went? So I think the the flip side of that is deeply receptive, deeply passionate. And then how deeply can you see and condition a man for what you really appreciate about him? Because I think we're so simple. I literally think we're like dogs and we love to give, and when it's seen, we want to give more, and when it's not, we're kind of like. I'm trying to think of an example.

Speaker 2: 22:41

I've typically dated more Eastern European or European type women, or Latin, because I find it's more culturally acceptable for romance Like a woman is more wanting let's call it flowers, and I tend to be very romantic. So I'm like oh, I want to bring flowers, and they're like, excited, like they're holding to me. This is an example of receptivity, excitement, jumping up and down Like I'm so excited, and so I'm like'm like I won, I just gave this gift, I was thoughtful, I gave flowers. Not only did she receive it, but look how excited she is. How, how often can I give her more of this?

Speaker 2: 23:14

Because I see her receptivity to my offering, my experience with america women why did you bring a dozen roses my or or like stop dating for a period of time? Because they can't take the rose like, like I, like I was? Do you see the? The? The massive difference, though, is one was like oh, I gave this offering of my heart and it's received, whereas this, the other one, is like, shamed, pushed away. So I think it's moving away from I don't, which to me, would be low self-respect, low self-worth, low self. I don't need these things, or what are you trying to get from them versus oh, thank you for really honoring me as a woman and honoring my femininity, right? So I think it's the framing on what are you viewing his offering is as an actual gift, which a gift requires nothing back, or is it a trade? And how can you start to see it? If a man offers, it's really coming from a gift?

Speaker 1: 24:06

Yeah, is that helpful to describe some of those pieces yeah, no, super helpful, because I remember when the book girl boss came out and like that was the whole, like let's be independent women, and like that really got ingrained in me. I'm also someone who's always, like, been an overachiever and wanted a lot of external validation, and so trying to now switch more into my feminine has been challenging, which I've been working on for about a year now, and I'm sure a lot of other women can relate. But that's kind of like I don't need. I don't need that, you know. Or I did have I dated one guy who was from the South and he would give me presents all the time and I almost felt like well, what is he trying to get, just like you said, instead of just receiving. So like how do you kind of guide women who might be in those situations?

Speaker 2: 24:59

So which type of situation is it Like? Healing with their feminine, healing with their masculine? Is it dating Like which one? Because there's a lot of angles we could go here yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:08

So I guess someone who's realizing like, okay, I've been in my masculine, like for me, I'm a single mom, so I'm in. I feel like I've been in my masculine a lot, but I really want to balance out and be more in my feminine. So anyone who's been like, who is a woman, who's been more in their masculine, like leaning more into their feminine- yeah, and I see this a lot.

Speaker 2: 25:28

So I'm really glad you asked this question and and I work with this a lot too, so I can speak really directly to it. So I'll speak to it in a couple of different lenses I'll. I'll first speak to how it, cause I think it's helpful to see how a more integrated man feels, that Cause I think it'll land like oh, it's seen, it's not just me, but he feels me. So for me, the woman feels more rigid, so like her facial structures feel more like tense, her body feels more tense and she's usually like on the go or busy, and so the feeling is there's no space for me to approach her, there's no space for me to be in her life. She's got it all handled. So what's, what's my value? What can I give her? So there's no space. It's almost like I got it all handled. What you're basically saying is stay away, right?

Speaker 2: 26:17

So often what you'll attract is a more feminine man who was like oh great, mommy's here, you do everything for me, and now you got two, got two kids, so so one of the reasons to shift into that is so that you don't have to do it all and I I do. I'm more traditional in nature. So I believe that we we have different roles that can add value to each other and we both have to develop more masculine, feminine. So man and also has to develop, is more feminine if he wants to be emotionally aware and present and to be able to listen and validate emotions like it takes feminine qualities to do that. But so I want to paint the picture. So they go oh man, this is happening. And if it's happening, why do I need to change the? The way to actually start to change his first nervous system awareness, because often we're dysregulated, majority of the times. Especially you're gonna, if you're a busy mom, the kids are dysregulating, one or multiple kids. The job, if you're a business owner or work a lot, that's dysregulating. So you're dealing with all this stress and the stress puts you into the back of your brain, which is dysregulated, which is a survival state, and when you're in a survival state, you're going to go, go, go, go go. So what you do when you're doing emotional regulation is you're moving from the back of the brain to the front of the brain and, in simplicity, it gets you present. Once you're present, then we can now start to drop into the body to actually feel what's going on with us.

Speaker 2: 27:36

Because I find most women they're masculine tend to live here. They tend to look in their outside world to figure out what the problem is and they're trying to solve it, which is a very masculine trait Like what's the problem, how do I solve it so I can feel good again. And so it's getting present to go. If I, if I notice there's a problem, it's probably something going on with me internally. So what are some somatic practices or pleasure practices which oftentimes I find a one more masculine feels uncomfortable. She's been very controlled. So learning practices to get more into the body.

Speaker 2: 28:12

Pleasure doesn't also mean just like a masturbation practice. It means like how do you feel pleasure? Pleasure could be sound, movement, touch, like there's so much pleasure that doesn't. It can include that, but it doesn't have to. It's more like how do you allow yourself to become wide? And like the feminine, is everything expression? How do you allow yourself to start to become life and its fullest expression? And allowing yourself to feel the grief and the heartbreak and the sadness and the anger and the whatever you're feeling? How do you emote that through the vehicle of the body and when it starts to emote also sitting with maybe some of the abandonment or the past hurt men have caused or feelings of rejection or like so there's all this stuff that's kind of stacked in here, that and that's why we go into our head, because I can stay safe here and if I achieve, then nobody asks me questions, and if I'm really busy with my kiddos and my business then I can stay safe, so I don't have to address anything. But then when I date I have a more feminine man and I'm frustrated. So so it's like that's kind of the pattern I see versus or they attracted what I would call a night who's like, adventurous on the go, super happy, because they're busy working on the time. So they're not in their feminine, like light and love and playfulness and joy. So they need a man to bring them into the playfulness. And those men are typically don't have a strong vision, they're not clear on where they're going. They have all this time on their hands, so it's super fun at first. And then when they look at building a partnership, they're like, oh, but he has no vision, he has no plan. I'm supporting, I'm because they they started the initiation, so big picture.

Speaker 2: 29:41

How does a woman start to become into that playfulness, that aliveness, that vibrancy, which is initially really difficult if you live in a long time kind of anchored up, because you have to create that spaciousness and it comes through moving, that emotion and then, once you do, you start to create more spaciousness and that feminine energy. It's like aliveness, it's like a sense of joy where you want to get dressed up for you, not for somebody else, or to get any attention or validation, like I want to feel good, good or so. It's like nurturing that energy and I feel like that. What that feels like from a man is very different, right. So to kind of give an example of that texture is like you feel it is like they have all this, like radiant feminine energy, because the radiant energy is like magnet, it's like magnetizing for us, like you can almost feel vitality because we struggle with nurture, we really struggle in nurturing ourselves.

Speaker 2: 30:28

It's a lot of work, but a woman naturally generates it. If she's in her essence, it's like she's this re and you're like my God, it's like muse energy, right. It's like I, like amazing, what can I do for you? Right? That's why we want to give to, we want to serve, because it's so revitalizing and I think that's where women have in this whole movement. That's girl boss, babe.

Speaker 2: 30:48

Women have become competitive and so they're competing with men instead of realizing they're priceless with just their natural greatest right the radiant expression. And we will like dive for women or that like there's a, there's a real deep like. So I just don't think when they get into competing they don't realize their value and their worth is not in the competition or what they can do, it's in their radiance and how they be and how they show up in the world. And that's part of the receptivity. If I can be really vibrant, I can feel the receptivity, I can react and respond because I'm this movement-based, reactive response to life versus this rigid, directional focus.

Speaker 2: 31:26

Get it energy which is more masculine. So in being that fullest expression to a man, it feels soft, it feels radiant, it feels pliable, it feels like devote, like you feel, like you want to devote. There's space, like, oh, there's space for me if I may, if I offer something. She's so generous in her response to me, I feel so loved by what. I want to give her more and I want to keep giving more. So it's a. It's a very different energetic texture and I would also be willing to say if a woman's achieved through being very masculine, she can achieve a lot more when she taps into her feminine, because money's feminine. So creating more spaciousness means she doesn't have to work as much. She can be more connected to God, to source and allowing to be in her like pleasure and aliveness, and when she steps into that she's going to magnetize a lot more money than if she's doing more rigidity with her energy and time around that.

Speaker 1: 32:12

Yeah, no, that is so true because I'm. I have been like so much in my head just doing, doing, doing, being a mom and then working, and then every like healer I work with they're like you need to have more fun, you need to like dance and like. So I've been trying well, I have been integrating that into my day and it just feels so awkward right now but I'm like, but once I start it feels good but it's just like kind of retraining that muscle, almost like yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:42

It's, it's, it's, it's very difficult. It's very difficult at first if we've lived a long time and it's and as a single mom working, you deal with a lot of stress. There's not a lot of time, so you almost have to like carve out the time to create space for you, which is, I think, the hardest part. And then initially, if you haven't been being emotionally expressive or more embodied in your own body, then it's going to feel uncomfortable, it's going to like we've been used to controlling. So initially, think of it. You're creating a container to then wake up the parts of you. And one thing that was helpful I was actually just on a bank call with a woman where we were talking about pleasure-based practices and what she could do to feel more aliveness, cause she's like, oh, I noticed some jealousy from other women, or I noticed these things that show up in my body, and how does she create a pleasure practice to express all those things?

Speaker 2: 33:33

And she's like I noticed there's a little bit of judgment in my head about what I was doing. So so creating the space of relieving the judgment or the fear, the control, to allow the intuitive nature to take over, where a woman's more connected to her divine mother, her feminine, deep feminine intuition that she knows what she needs to start to take her. It's just letting go the fear-based control side and allowing that pleasureable side. That's why I think pleasure practice is a really good place for women to start, because dance can be pleasurable. How do I make it fun? How do I make it pleasurable? How do I want to move my body or my hips, or I want to move slow or fast, like there's a? There can be a subtlety and it gives such a range of what you can do and different music choices. So I'm a big fan of finding practices like that that allow a woman to open up. And I even do as a man, like that's what. That's a big part of what helped me move through, like my porn addiction and some of those areas.

Speaker 2: 34:20

I would just feel heavy and dense and couldn't feel any emotion. I was like what do I do in this space? And was going somewhere to try to relieve the pressure. And then I was like, oh, it was a pleasure-based practice. I'd never done that. I'd never experienced my touch outside of touching a woman. And so I realized like, oh, I would go there because at some level I was needing a woman to get her nurture.

Speaker 2: 34:39

So I was in a transactional, codependent dynamic and then when I started doing pleasure-based practices, I was like, oh, I'm very sensual and I was like I could never actually feel my hands unless I felt them through a woman. And I'm like, now I can feel my hands, like, oh, this is what I feel like. So it was really like awakening for me. I feel like I got bald the first time I did it I was like, oh, I can feel myself. Now I actually know where to go to like honor myself. But it feels really, especially for man and because we're moving and reacting in ways that have typically been taught no go zones, but it's just the natural aliveness of the body to come alive.

Speaker 1: 35:12

Yeah, yeah, now, I love that, and you had said something I was going to ask about. That's it. Sorry, now I'm blinking. No, I love all of that, and so I'll come back to it. It was a good question too.

Speaker 2: 35:28

Was it about pleasure practice? Was it about movement practice? Was it about men or women doing different practices?

Speaker 1: 35:48

get myself into a good place, work on all of this, really wanting to be in my feminine more so that I don't keep attracting the same types of people just focusing on my kids' business and myself right now, and I know you had said you had taken a break too, and so I would love if you would just share like what that helped you with with whatever goal you were setting during that time and, like I know, for me it's been, it's been so helpful. And now I'm like, uh, do I even want to start dating? Because it's like so nice to have all this time to focus on myself, because I was over giving and all of my relationships. So, yeah, I would love for you to just speak on yeah, and I may do it again.

Speaker 2: 36:21

I'm actually considering doing it again for the next, like until through the end of the year, cause it just feels like the right time and I find it so beneficial because it's it's called like a, a masculine cleanse or a feminine cleanse, and essentially it's on the masculine side. What I did is I removed all the ways that I get a hit from the feminine to nurture me. So, outside of purely platonic and it's gotta be like platonic, like no future pacing, like just actual platonic friendships, I cut off the feminine energy. So, besides, like my mother and my, my girlfriends that are just friends, that means like I unwind anybody I'm talking to. I un unwind any, even like peripheral people that on occasion you send a flirty message and then I unfollow or love, like completely clear out any of my energetic space. If I notice I go somewhere. For me it's even pretty rigid and not flirting or smiling, so it sounds. It's a little rigid, but I had to realize how many areas I was getting. So if I walk in to get a coffee and said be like hi, hello, we're starting a conversation, it's like just direct, it's like thank you, like I just really kind of keep my energy in close. And then what happens is you get through the layers.

Speaker 2: 37:30

I realized everything in my life I was doing was directed by the feminine. I was like I go to the gym and I see a woman that captures my attention and I go work out in that direction. Or I go to the store and I'm like going down different aisles and I really had this awareness that I'd never had before, like I'm literally directed so much of my life and just the constant redirection back to purpose and source and where I was going gives, gives a lot of power. I would say the first month can be really challenging because you have to sit with yourself. In all the ways you've been filling that hole, that empty hole, and so the first month is I would recommend you're doing some somatic practices or some grieving practices or some pleasure practices every day, because it's going to be really hard. And then, after that first month, I find then we start to rebuild the relationship.

Speaker 2: 38:15

So for me, doing a feminine cleanse, I'm rebuilding the relationship with my feminine. So I have to find ways to nurture myself if I'm not getting them from a woman. So you know, I started bringing flowers to my house, I started cleaning my house a lot more. I started organizing things that I'd never organized. I started cooking meals and really getting into the cooking. I spent a lot more time with my cats and the relationships got a lot deeper. There was, like all these areas I noticed I wear hats a lot, I like hats and I like to wear hats, but I felt more inspired to wear different clothes or to comb my hair more, or there's just like a lot of changes, and I've seen the same with women. It shifts.

Speaker 2: 38:51

What are all the ways I'm trying to get safety from a man? So is like removing any area that I'm trying to get safety for a man, except for clearly platonic friendships, where it's very clearly communicated and if you feel any inkling that he wants more, you want more. You cut it off. And that's usually the hardest part is there's like people feel it and then they keep it. I've had men that I've done this with clients and they say it's the hardest thing they've ever done, and some of them couldn't even do it. They were like, oh, I just have platonic friends. But then I could feel it's not a platonic friend, you're just pushing it out till after and continuing to date along the way, because you become more magnetic.

Speaker 2: 39:28

When you do that practice, people start to come towards you because they can feel your energy is different. You have more energy and aliveness. So I'm a big advocate, if things have not been working, to take some time out, even if it's a month, to really just be in your own energy. I did five months last time. I'll probably do another four or five months this time. I'm just feeling the call because of what I was attracting was unavailability and I was like all right, if I'm attracting unavailability, it means I'm unavailable. So what do I have to do to put myself in a different position where I'm more aligned with my passions, my goals, than my aliveness, versus being in an unavailable space?

Speaker 1: 40:04

just doesn't feel good. Yeah, no, that's interesting that you said that. So maybe I've been doing it a little wrong, because there were there were probably like uh, there was a period of about five months where it was a man who was in a writing group with me. He lived in a different country, and so I was like, oh, this is safe, we were just being accountability partners. But there was definitely like an attraction and I started noticing it was distracting me in the way that my other relationships where I would kind of just give them my focus, how can I help? I was starting to be distracted and so once you know, that was cut off, I felt a freeing of energy again and it was just a good reminder.

Speaker 2: 40:41

like I'm not quite there yet, like to, it was a good little reminder, but maybe I'm okay, that's helpful to just like completely cut it off then yeah, because because, think about it, just like what you said, that is, when there's some sort of a hook or an energetic tie, we're not available, so we're like kind of in and out, and then that takes our energy, that we're we're, we're not available, so we're like kind of in and out, and then that takes our energy, that we're, we're giving our energy out, and there we're meeting somebody in that unavailability and that lowers our potency from what we're actually cultivating. So it's like I find where I'm heading is if I cultivate my energy, then I'm going to be attracting in the same place, right? So it's like. And where I noticed the pattern for me is it showed up as people weren't over their exes. So I'd meet somebody and then I'd start to connect and they're like oh, they've one woman was living with her ex and I was like they just broke up and okay. Or then I met another woman who'd just gotten out of a relationship a couple of months earlier, but I could still feel her heartbreak. That's what I'm saying. I think the more work you do, I can actually feel where woman's at. I don't need to. I used to just listen to what they say or what she tells me. Now I can feel her. I'm like, oh, she's not available. She tells me she's available but I'm feeling she's not available. She's she's still got heartbreak. There's still some other energy here.

Speaker 2: 41:50

Or another woman I talked to was like, oh, I'm just dating and I want to talk to a number of guys and that's not my. For me, if it's like there's multiple dudes, I'm like, oh, they're your dudes. So all those kind of gave me like set points and so that's why it's like, okay, I need to be in a space where I'm super clean with my energy. And then the key is when you are, as you open up to dating again, your intuition is really high and you've really done a lot of self-work to cultivate your energy and you need to be really I want to say self-aware protective of it, so that as you start dating, date slow and and really, if you want this is if you want a relationship.

Speaker 2: 42:28

Some women might say, hey, I want to play, I want to explore totally different strategies, but if you're actually wanting, like your partner, I'd say go slow and like, really notice the energetics of like. What's showing up, is it feel like spaciousness? You've just done all this work to cultivate spaciousness. Do you feel a spaciousness between you guys and it feels really good, or do you feel like a, an urgent pull? To me, the urgent pull is either like a void in anxious energy or some sort of like almost feels like an addictive drug. I need this versus spaciousness, like okay, let's continue to see how this evolves. So that's one of my signals. If it feels like that, then it's a no for me, right? So I think if you go really slow and I'm the opposite, I know some women teach like date multiple men until a man puts a ring on your finger, for me I would never go, never even go on a date.

Speaker 2: 43:17

I go on one date until I found that out, and then I would never date any of those women. So for me, I'm not going to compete. It's either going to be we're going to see cause I'm so sensitive. I feel everything because I've done all this work to open up emotionally. So if a woman's on dates, I feel the dates.

Speaker 2: 43:30

I feel like I feel her energetic debris, just like a woman does with men.

Speaker 2: 43:34

Yeah, I feel like women are super spidey, sense, intuitive, like that, and as a man starts to develop more, we can feel it too, and so I just can't handle the debris.

Speaker 2: 43:42

It's super triggering to my ego and it I get super dysregulated and anxious because I'm feeling like I have to prove myself and so I've just learned oh, I want more sovereign, somebody who doesn't need to date the field, they just know who they are. And if I show up in their field, we'll slowly take time to see where it goes and it works or doesn't works, and if it doesn't, we transition. And if it does, but that energetic feels really clean to me and like really clear, like they're really clear. And so I'm just giving examples of how a man that can feel and is very intuitive, how we feel women and it probably sounds like a lot of women talk about men like oh, unavailable men dating multiple people, like like, oh, unavailable men dating multiple people, like. So just as I was describing my stories, I hear women all the time. I'm like not just men, women do it too. So does that give like just different examples of context?

Speaker 1: 44:27

yeah, no, that's super helpful. Thank you, and that that brings me to one more. Sorry, I know, uh, we're running out of time, yeah okay, I wanted. Uh, there was something you posted and it was about why women shouldn't pursue men, and I would love for you to just talk about that.

Speaker 2: 44:43

Yeah, so if a woman's in pursuit, she is in her master, she's directional, and so she's going to attract a more feminine, feminine man, which means that's going to be the entire relationship. So she's going to be creating dates and activities and taking him to dinner and making all the decisions. Like she's going to be creating dates and activities and taking him to dinner and making all the decisions. Like she's going to be driving that. So how the energetic starts, the very beginning is the relationship. Like I find trust, the energetics in the beginning, um, it just is what plays out. So what she can do is give signals, because a lot of men are dense, so like I think one of my buddies, preston, got it from somewhere else, but it's called the handkerchief technique where it's like, oh, like, walk up and say like oh, your eyes are really beautiful, or I like your what you're wearing. Like give some sort of either compliment or something that he knows very clearly.

Speaker 2: 45:31

I think if it's on social media, somebody can give a more direct compliment, because I see sometimes in like messages people will just be friendly, but there's not a compliment there.

Speaker 2: 45:37

So it just I see sometimes in like messages people will just be friendly, but there's not a compliment there, so it just seems like people are friendly. So I think many like, uh, I'm actually interested, and then the men will either pursue you or he won't. So it's like getting out of the way of you pursuing him and allowing, like waiting, and if he's interested he'll pursue you, or he's not, he's not the man for you unless you want to be in the masculine role in the relationship. So and some women may identify more like they like to drive things and they may want a more feminine man I've seen it work in some relationships where I I know like a relationship where she's a doctor, very successful, she works and plans all the things and he stays homes with the kids and it works great for their relationship. So but if it's, if you want a more traditional relationship, then let him pursue you, just let him pursue you, just let him know, and then create the space and then give a lot of receptivity from that.

Speaker 1: 46:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:26

Right, because I often don't feel. I've even had that in little interactions. Just to give other examples of that where I can sense a woman's wanting me to pursue her, but then I actually don't really feel like she sees me. So I'm like I'm already not going to waste my time, energy, because I'm already not feeling seen, does that?

Speaker 1: 46:40

so it's like, so it's very subtle, it's like subtle energetics and do you think women pursue men out of like, fear or control or like?

Speaker 2: 46:53

I my what comes up for me is validation. It's like like I want to get some validation and women are gorgeous and sensual and sexy and beautiful and you guys have a lot of things to turn it on. So it's like a woman just has to turn on a little bit of that energy and you're going to get a man's attention and you're going to get him coming towards you, right it's. It actually takes a lot of work to turn that I don't want to say turn it off, but to try to restrain that. It's actually harder to restrain than give into that on up from a masculine, where I think women are a little bit different with that. But if a woman turns it on, it's really hard to not give it into that. But what I have learned is that can be like early signs of love, bombing love, avoidant energy and a man does it too, is they? They come on really strong in the beginning and then they pull back once they got you. It's like this push-pull experience. So but yeah, I think it comes on from them, probably just wanting relationship and they're used to being more masculine in their life and getting things done and handling things and they're like I'm gonna go find the guy and get the guy. But when I see that energy present there, yeah, it just doesn't feel polar, it doesn't feel there's not a polarity there for me, like it feels aggressive, I feel like they're pursuing me and I'm like I want to pursue. Yeah, so more masculine man is, is not going to want to pursue a more, more masculine woman.

Speaker 2: 48:15

But I would say, be receptive, like that's another area, like I notice some women are a lot more receptive and let you know they're interested. Versus if somebody's playing games, you're also not gonna, you know, attract, I'd say, a more integrated man who's actually serious about finding partnership. He doesn't want to play the game. So if there's like a, if there's a game and there's days and it's like, okay, I'm not, you're not interested, yeah, right. So it's almost just like be authentic, like just be radically authentic, show up in your natural self, be open, be curious, trust that he'll pursue you and he'll enjoy pursuing you, and like look at it as a dance or he's not your guy years I used to feel like I wanted to pursue, but I did it in a kind of interesting way, like you're saying.

Speaker 1: 49:04

I guess I would make sure they noticed me. But then, as soon as they, we got into a relationship, I wanted to control everything, which I wouldn't want to do now. But I was just kind of curious because I was thinking back and I know other women do that too where I almost feel like it's like scared to be alone too. So you're're like well, I need to find someone, so I'm just going to go, you know, pursue this guy or something.

Speaker 2: 49:26

So yeah, and men do the same thing and I find that's when we, that's what we attract. So when we're in that space, we magnetize to each other and we're filling the space with validation, and so it's not alignment for either person, it's temporary and then it eventually fizzles out or shadows out or something happens, versus waiting to two available people that are fully ready to be in relationship. But I also wanted to comment again receptivity and pursuing can be different. Like a woman I'm just trying to think of really grounded examples. Like a woman can be very vocal, she can be liking, commenting.

Speaker 2: 49:59

If it's on social media, she could be really receptive in her messages. Like it doesn't mean she's not receptive, she's just not leading the relationship, she's not making plans and dates, she's not. That's what to me, you're pursuing is that she's she's not driving it forward, she's responding to him, but she could be very responsive, because I think a responsive woman is very receptive and is very attractive. Right. If she's not responsive and play his games, I find those also fizzle out. But I think it's a really good distinction between those two.

Speaker 1: 50:27

Yeah, no, that that is a good distinction. Thank you, yeah. Well, this was like I love this conversation where who do you currently work with and like someone's listening, and they want to work with you.

Speaker 2: 50:40

What are the different offerings you have? Yeah, so I currently work with men, women and couples and I do one-on-one coaching and I have some group. I have a couple of digital programs that are around. One's called the D spot, which is learning a lot of what I teach in my coaching, but, like in more of a digital format, one's emotional resilience training, which is the nervous system, and I will be launching I'm getting much more into women's work.

Speaker 2: 51:02

I just I'm really enjoying helping women like find what they're looking for and it seems like coming from a man can give a different perspective. I know a lot of women teach women's programs and I'm just working with more and more women that I'm really enjoying giving masculine perspective and I think it can also be really healing. So I'm going to be launching some more women's programs here soon and I also have my film coming out the end of the year called the Gift of Grief, and that'll be December 6th through the 28th and I'll be doing 22 Days of Grief Conversations. So that's all coming out. And then my website is just joshuawinnercom and my social media is joshuamichaelwinnercom or joshuamichaelwinner winnercom or joshuamichaelwinner Great yeah, I'll tag those.

Speaker 1: 51:41

And yeah, that's exciting because I do think it is helpful for women to work with a man when they're trying to heal these things, because, like I've taken, you know, I've worked with Andrea a lot, I've worked with Catherine Zinkina on feminine energy, but it's just a different kind of like flavor perspective working with a man. So, yeah, that's amazing. I'll definitely keep an eye out for all of that and then I'll link everything you mentioned in the show notes. And is there anything else you would want to add?

Speaker 2: 52:07

If I were just to add anything, well, one, it would just be thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really grateful and honored to be here. And two, I just want to send a reminder that at the deepest level a, I just want to send a reminder that at the deepest level, we, a man, deeply wants to serve and and, and that your natural essence is the most attractive. So I see, so often women are trying to do all these things to become what a man wants, and I would say, like, softening into who you are at your most authentic expression is actually what we desire most. At your most authentic expression is actually what we desire most. So like to like relieve some of that pressure that it can be easier than you think it is and that you're more valuable than you think you are just by being you.

Speaker 1: 52:49

Yes, I love that. Thank you, because, yeah, all all through, like high school adulthood, I was always changing myself to try to think like, well, what does want me to look like or like, and I wouldn't even express my opinions because I just wanted to be pleasing, and so it took me so long to just be like screw that, I'm just going to be who I am and like be authentic and yeah. So thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 2: 53:12

I love that, yeah Beautiful.

Speaker 1: 53:14

Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was a really I appreciate your time.

Speaker 2: 53:19

Thank you, yeah, I loved it.