Ep 3: Unraveling the Threads of Authenticity in Friendships and Personal Relationships

Have you ever pondered over the complexities of friendships and their profound impact on our lives? Olivia and Lola take a deep dive into the heart of friendships, dissecting how they define us and shape our lives. We wear our hearts on our sleeves as we share poignant personal experiences and reflections on defining friendship, setting boundaries, and prioritizing ourselves to foster authentic relationships.

Navigating the tricky landscape of family dynamics and their influence on friendships, we explore the nuances of finding a balance between love and boundaries. We candidly discuss our personal struggles with toxic family ties, emphasizing the liberating power of prioritising our well-being and fostering healthy relationships. We share our insights into how fostering an authentic connection with friends can fill the void left by strained family relationships, and how these bonds can be a guiding beacon in life.

Wrapping up our heartfelt discussion, we reflect on the transformative power of friendships in our lives. We reveal how nurturing these bonds have led to personal growth and inspirational life changes, all the while offering you a fresh perspective on your own friendships. In the end, we express our deep gratitude for these life-altering bonds, hoping that our exploration of friendship dynamics and growth can inspire you to cherish your own relationships. We look forward to sharing our journey, hoping to shed light on the importance of friendship, and the joy that comes with finding your tribe.

We also mention the following from John O'Donohue:

“Our bodies know that they belong; it is our minds that make our lives so homeless. Guided by longing, belonging is the wisdom of rhythm. When we are in rhythm with our own nature, things flow and balance naturally. Every fragment does not have to be relocated, reordered; things cohere and fit according to their deeper impulse and instinct. Our modern hunger to belong is particularly intense. An increasing majority of people feel no belonging. We have fallen out of rhythm with life. The art of belonging is the recovery of the wisdom of rhythm.”  

- John O'Donohue's Eternal Echoes: Celtic Reflections on Our Yearning to Belong

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:18

Welcome back, liv, here. This episode is on friendship. This is such an important topic. This is a topic that I think we should be talking about more, and I think that is so appropriate for the Juicy podcast, because our friendship Lola and I's friendship is absolutely key and crucial to the essence of this podcast, and so we had a lot to say on this. This is a very, very long episode, so you might want to listen to it in a couple of goes.

Speaker 1: 1:52

Maybe you want to have like a four part or a two part friendship episode, but I think that the kind of one of the main things that we really talked about here is how what it means to be a friend and how do you define that and what does it look like to show up for friendship and what are some of the things we need, like boundaries and knowing ourselves and putting ourselves first and prioritizing our own needs so we can show up more honestly and lovingly in our friendships. And we also give a lot of permission for ending friendships and being clear about what kind of friendships you need. And in a world where romantic relationships is at the center of most conversations, I think we both really hold a high value of how nourishing and important friendship really is in one's life, and I think you're going to love this one. I think this is a really, really, really rich episode.

Speaker 2: 2:55

We got to say that. Indeed, I'm just remembering because we recorded it a few months ago. I'm remembering that we covered a lot like Liv's shared, and there's so much more obviously in the podcast. But we also came away with just thinking, oh my God, we just barely touched the sides. There's so much that could be said and then just even in the weeks that followed, I had so many different. Oh my God, we need to do friendship again.

Speaker 2: 3:25

So it will probably rear its head again because it is such a big topic and it is so important. You know, such a big source of love, care, connection, nurturing things that we need as humans. Also, it can be a real cause of, like you know, toxicity and other stuff. That's not great. So you either have good friends or you don't, right, you know you either have quality friendships or you have poor quality friendships and they affect you. So Liv and I come from different places. That's the beautiful thing about us as well.

Speaker 2: 3:59

So we're offering well, I was going to say two perspectives, but we offer way more than one perspective, like each. So we offer a few different perspectives on friendships, coming out from different angles, and there are multiple more. So let it take you let it take, you let it, you know, be interesting to hear where it rubs up against you right, where you agree, where you disagree. All of that's welcome, because I think it's really about just riffing on friendship. We're not trying to solve anything, you know. We're not trying to resolve anything or have any answers. We're just trying to pick it apart a little bit, understand it a bit more and share with you what we've learned over the years from really looking at the friendships that we hold in a way that I think often people don't. We wish you all healthy, loving, nurturing friendships, and my wish is that and our wish is that this podcast episode takes you in the direction of those friendships.

Speaker 2: 5:14

That's right, enjoy, enjoy. Welcome back to the juicy podcast. It's your girls live and low. We're back again. We're still working for our introductions, but we're doing it. We'll get there. What are we talking about today?

Speaker 1: 5:46

Liv. Today we're going to talk about friendship.

Speaker 2: 5:52

Yeah, because we said we would. The reason why we're doing it is because this is our third podcast and we kind of hyped it up in podcast number one that we're going to talk about friendship and we didn't. For the next one we talked about something else and, yeah, this is the one that we need to start talking about, because we feel like it's going to come up again and again, actually this concept through the future recordings of our podcast. I wanted to check in with how we were, how you doing, liv.

Speaker 1: 6:31

Well, it's hard for me to answer that today, but I appreciate you asking. I feel like a scrambled egg. I feel like this we're recording this on a Friday afternoon and I've had a really big week of diving all the way into my life like head first, jumped in, started French classes, been to lots of different kind of movement classes, I've had lots of work we're recording this. I really feel like I've dived head into head into my life and I had this wish for myself a few weeks ago. I was like what if I could be the dumbest person in the room? That's nice, that's what I want.

Speaker 1: 7:31

I want to be around mastery. I want to be around people that are mastery much more than I do in different areas of my life. And this is what this week has felt like. I've been looking around. I'm like, oh my God, I'm the one crawling at the back of the class and it has me feeling like a scrambled egg, as you're feeling like, oh my God, this is hard and this is vulnerable and this is what I wanted. So that's how I feel today.

Speaker 2: 7:59

Nice, it's necessary. I think that space very necessary for progress.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Yeah, it feels like real conditions for mega growth.

Speaker 2: 8:14

Gorgeous. I'm proud of you, girl.

Speaker 1: 8:16

Thank you. Thank you, how are you feeling?

Speaker 2: 8:24

Yeah, I'm feeling good. So yeah, it's Friday afternoon here too, because you know you're a baby.

Speaker 2: 8:31

Yeah, because we are doing this podcast at the same time in the same continent. So I think, where am I? I am actually feeling really good, so I've got back into work this week. I tend to take August off, so we're recording this particular episode early September 2023. And I tend to take August off Because, physically, my body just doesn't want to do anything in August.

Speaker 2: 9:02

It feels like a natural break and that's also kind of like difficult. It's getting easier as the years go on and I do that, but every year it's still challenging to have that time off. It feels like once you have that space, things come into, fill it and I'm in a huge transition, I mean a massive life transition this year anyway, taking lots of brave and courageous steps, and so, in the month of all, it's just been a super transformational summer, like someone's just been like fuck it all, like an absolute masterclass of transformation and a shit ton of letting go. There's been so much grieving grieving of illusions and identities, really, really core ones, ones that there was a real attachment to, like in my parenting and just me as a woman. I mean huge. Actually, my book titles changed over the summer. I've been writing for the last three years and so, and I've been on increasingly getting used to living with ADHD after being diagnosed a year ago, you know, at the age of 44. So it's just a big shift and I feel like coming back into work this week like I'm taking myself out for a spin, the new me out for a spin, like, oh, we do things differently now and I've done all right. You know, I feel like I've had a night, a productive week with lots of it, pauses and spaces. We've had incredible news as a family that I can't share, but it's like maybe so happy I can't share yet but you can work it out Kind of news that makes people feel happy.

Speaker 2: 10:57

And it's not me and not me. I just feeling really what's the word I'm looking for here? I think a lot of joy, you know. Feeling a lot of joy, feeling a lot of happiness, feeling very well earned happiness and joy because it has really come off the back of making some really difficult decisions earlier on in the year and going through so much darkness, to be honest with you, and my creativity is just back and alive again. So that's where I am. I'm in a place that I feel like I've never been before. I've never been this close to myself in the way that I am right now, and it just feels like the best feeling in the world feeling very aligned. That's what I'm feeling very aligned.

Speaker 1: 11:58

What I wanted to say to you as I was listening to that is you've been a really good friend over the summer and this, like what you're saying, right, this has been a massively mega transformational summer. I've also experienced that and I've felt you as a friend be such a pillar of groundedness and joy. When you kind of describe mega transformation and August taking August off, my experience of you has been that you've been so available and so loving to me as you've been going through all of this. I know this is our topic today friendship. I was getting a real mirror as you were speaking. I'm like, oh, I'm really really lucky to be in the close orbit of you. There's this beautiful kind of overflow that's come into my life. I mean, it's been like that waste our whole friendship. We will talk about that today, but especially recently, the decisions you've made to take care of yourself, to have your life feel the way it feels right now, means that the people around you, your friends, close friends are really well nourished by that. So thank you, that's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 13:32

That's really good to hear, actually, Because I think it's because I've been more of a friend to myself and that's, yeah, it's interesting, Just interesting what you're saying, because I haven't really felt what is it I'm trying to say I haven't really felt that because there has been a lot going on and I haven't really felt like I haven't got time or space for what's going on.

Speaker 2: 14:05

I haven't really felt you've had a lot going on too and I haven't felt like, oh, I've just haven't got the capacity for this right now at all. I've not felt any of that at all. And again, like I'm saying, this is the blossom in the outcome of a series of lots of different decisions and I've said this year, but even when you're speaking, I'm like actually it's been for God knows how many years. So I've had a lot of challenges with friendship. I've had to take it a lot to kind of take it apart and figure it out what it is for myself and live according to the standards that it is for myself. And so when you're saying what you're saying, it makes me feel like it's been worth it. You're feeling the outcome of that process. Yeah, that feels good.

Speaker 1: 14:57

Love that Beautiful, so we've defined it as defined friendship. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:05

So we were looking at the one.

Speaker 1: 15:11

So I may have said this on an earlier episode, I can't remember, but I get a lot of people messaging me on social media, some of my people that I know really well, so sometimes it's clients of mine that know me well and have been working with me for multiple years, and sometimes it's you know, those of you that follow me on the internet and just know me through that channel. I often get asked about friendship and I get a reflection often Like I love the way that you do friendship, that I share a lot online about my friends and what we're doing for each other and what we're experiencing together, what we're creating together. I have a lot of creative projects with friends of mine. A lot of my close friends are very creative people and I get that reflection a lot that people really enjoy it and are very inspired by it. And I've been asked many times if I was, if I would ever create a course about friendship, like actually a container, a program, a journey to teach on friendship, and to be honest, I've never even considered it. It's not even been something I've even thought about. But it is interesting that I did start thinking about it once.

Speaker 1: 16:25

People asked and like what is the thing that people are really wanting and needing out of their friendships that they're not getting Like.

Speaker 1: 16:32

Why is friendship so hard?

Speaker 1: 16:34

For so many people and myself included and I know you've also kind of briefly already said this that friendship has been really hard, and one thing I would love us to do today is talk a little bit about why we think that might be and what makes friendship some of the most fulfilling places in life and also some of the places where we can have the most struggle.

Speaker 1: 17:01

It's a big part of adult life especially. I think that we give a lot of. We have a lot of reading and resources on resources on relationship intimate intimate relationships but far less on actual friendships. So I'm not planning to do a course anytime soon, but this is really the first time I've ever speaking about it publicly with anyone, so I think it's nice that this is kind of we're going to solely focus on this today. I think it's important and I hope for anyone that listens to this that you know my wish for anyone listening is that you walk away with a better definition for yourself and a better understanding of what fulfillment in friendship could look like in your own life. That would be my wish.

Speaker 2: 17:57

Yeah, as I was listening to you, I was thinking it feels really personal friendship to me, like it means different things to different people and people have different styles. I mean, fundamentally, friendship is a type of relationship and we're always relating. I mean, I think relationships in general is something we're always relating to ourselves, to other things, to each other and I love what you said there in terms of it can be a source of stress, but it can also be a source of such joy. You know, real connection. And I think there's also something I don't know if it's there's definitely differences in the genders. I do see that, generally speaking and I can only speak as a woman or a girl and I actually feel that friendships are something like lots of relationships.

Speaker 2: 18:52

When I was younger I just fell into. You know, I'm quite magnetic, like people are kind of attracted to me, they want to seem, they seem to want to come close. So I can find myself in positions where I'm not actually consciously chosen to be in a friendship with this person and then all of a sudden we're friends and we were joking before we started recording and I you know my ongoing theme is prison as a friendship I can never leave. That's what I'm always kind of scared of. Like, getting out of friendships is an issue for me, and I think there were some beliefs around, you know, loyalty and all this stuff. That actually is nothing to do with my, my relationship to friendship. It's not what I need at all. Right, I definitely know 100%. I don't like friendships that feel like obligation. I don't want to feel obliged to anyone and I don't want anyone to feel obliged to me at all. Right.

Speaker 1: 19:56

What would be an example of some like a friendship obligation?

Speaker 2: 20:01

Well, like someone's your friend, so you have to do certain things, like maybe I have to remember their birthday or I have to go to their events, or I have to see them even, or I have to any have to anything. That's like because we're friends and this is what friends do Like a sense of duty. I don't like that. I just. I think friendships for me should feel free and at choice, and a lot of my friends I've got, some friends I've had for a really long time, like you know, 20 years plus and those friendships for me have endured because those people accept me for who I am and also then they don't need. They don't need stuff, they don't need to see me, they're active in their own life. I'm active in my own life, but when we come together it's like no time has passed at all. You know they're my friends, they're my girls, they'll always be my girls. There's a special something that we have when we get together, because we've just now been through so much of life together, we've gone through so many changes individually and yet we're still connected. You know, I probably have like three or four friends like that off the top of my head right now, but I'm not really. And what that makes me feel is that they want to be friends with me. You know, it's like it's a thing of, like it's you I want to be friends with, as opposed to kind of. I'll take friendship with anyone because I'm looking for friendship, which is what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 21:49

I think my ADHD plays a part in that as well, you know, because there's been a lot in the diagnosis of ADHD that has been massive light bulbs and it's difficult for or challenging sometimes for people with ADHD to make friends because of the we have this whole outside out of mind thing. So it's literally like if I'm not seeing you, you know nothing personal, but I've forgotten about you. And I mean, don't get me wrong, attachment, star wise, I definitely verge on the avoidant side, right, and I'm okay with that, but I'm not, you know, I don't. I love development, work for the awareness, but I don't love it as a kind of hierarchy, as a. You know I should be here. I should always go for a secure attachment, feel pretty secure. I need a lot of space, you know, and I've had. Yeah, I think that's like. I'll say more later, but I think that's been my biggest challenge in friendship feeling obligated.

Speaker 2: 22:51

And I actually want to say this as well. Social media has not helped, especially Facebook for me, because it feels really unnatural, really unnatural to me to to be friends with so many people for a start it's just not, it's not real. And also to never leave anyone. Like I had an analogue childhood and this thing of like oh my God, why do I still? I don't need to know so much about people I went to secondary school with. If it wasn't how we are now, you just wouldn't have seen these people for decades and that would be it. So there's this thing of like you don't get to let go of anything anymore. You don't let to get rid of any dross anymore. You know and I don't mean that horribly like, it's just that you know we grow up with. I like real quality connections. You can't have real quality connections with loads of people.

Speaker 1: 23:47

And also have a long term relationship.

Speaker 2: 23:49

Yeah, and also I've got a long term relationship. I've got a son, you know, as I extra needs family that I care about and spend time with. So these are all connections already that I'm having, you know, and friends kind of come on top of that.

Speaker 2: 24:06

Yeah, it's like family and then friends on that foundation of family, and then I appreciate some people don't have that, so I get it and I don't know what that would be like. So if I didn't have that, maybe I would require something different from my friendships. But yeah, there's something about that as well.

Speaker 1: 24:26

So what I resonate with and what you're sharing is the I've definitely. I can even remember being a little girl and for me friendship was high priority. Like and I think really what it was was socialising connection with other people. I've always been with somebody that loved to connect with lots of different people and I've also definitely and you've really helped with this I feel like you're further along than I am with this. I also feel somewhat magnetic being as well, and I definitely about a hard time discerning who should be close to me, who should be in my life.

Speaker 1: 25:17

I've had a really hard time, like you said, it falling into right. Did I make a conscious choice? This is also a pattern I've also played out in romantic relationships, but because usually with romantic partners for me there's usually just one at a time it's a lot easier for me to notice like, oh, I'm I've repeated that pattern falling into something and now be very unlikely to do that because I'm so aware of myself and like what would be happening for me to do that. There was a point where I started to be like I need to start doing this with this kind of awareness exercise around friendships, because it's the same part of me that would consciously fall into a romantic relationship, that would conscious, unconscious, sorry, unconsciously fall into a friendship where I slightly differ. I think and this is also, I think you know we're at different stages of our lives and also we're slightly different generations.

Speaker 2: 26:13

So I wonder if it's also generational thing.

Speaker 1: 26:16

I tend to make my close friends family and we kind of roll as a pack and you know I have my close set of girlfriends is really diverse and collective, like my kind of ride or die women about five. Obviously you're one of them like super close to me and they all, like each one of you, really bring something super unique to my life and I really feel a lot right or die commitment to those relationships. Now, should any point and what I mean is it's like to me it's kind of the word I would use is like so I can't think of the right word here it's like that I'm not questioning whether this person should be in my life. I'm clear, crystal, fucking clear, that I want this person in my life in a deep way and I am actively showing up to that relationship on a very regular basis, like conversations, seeing each other in intimately, knowing about each other's lives, that I have that around me. So a couple of those my girls are like old school friends and the rest are actually, you know, friends in the last 10 years, women that I've really grown with, women that are really resonant with who I am today. So that works really well for me this my women crew.

Speaker 1: 27:49

I also have a tendency to, when I'm creating friendships or when I'm kind of entering into friendships or exploring friendships, I tend to really love the idea of rolling as a pack and kind of being like family style, like people describe me as, like you know, olivia's coming because all she talks about is we're a family. This has to be fucking childhood trauma. I'm just constantly trying to recreate my family, but I do think it comes from absolutely loving my family of origin. You know, you know I'm a big family girl and I love my family to bits and I love my brothers. I come from a big family, got four brothers, one sister, got lots of nieces and nephews.

Speaker 1: 28:35

I'm very close with my nieces and nephews especially, and I'm also very close to my parents, but I don't live near them. They live in a different country and there's a reason that's different countries. There's a degree of sort of like instability. I find sometimes, when I'm around my family for too long, that I don't have in my life in France. But I miss that family feeling and I'm single and so I definitely notice that I like to create friendships quickly and I like to trust almost immediately and if I feel a resonance with someone. I like to let them all the way in very fast and I tend to be someone like I'm someone as a friend, I will do the thing I said I was gonna do. I'm the kind of like usually leading, and that part works well for me. And then there are places where that doesn't work so much, because sometimes I lack a discernment and I lack, I mean, you could maybe reflect to me what you see in my pattern here, cause I do think there are some blind spots that I have.

Speaker 2: 29:56

Yeah, we both we both have. I can see cause in a way. Sometimes we come at it kind of from opposite into the spectrum. Is what it feels like Cause? It feels like you come from an open place, very open, like wide open, and so the blind spots will be there, like you said, around the discernment, right, and I come from a closed place. Now I do Actually I used to be super open too, right, but now I come from quite a closed place and I'm sure there's blind spots there. I look at me, trying to think of what they are. Obviously I can't see them. That's literally the nature, literally the nature of a blind spot. But I do love the contrast.

Speaker 2: 30:42

There is something for me about the contrast, right, and I learn from you and people having different relationships from me Kind of shows me where my edges are, of what friendship is for me and that kind of thing. And I think even just listening to you there it feels like family is a big thing, right, not just for you, but I'm actually thinking like family feels like it's possibly a biological human need or something right For community, because in the past friendships have gone for a massive transformation for me, but in the past the kind of conditioned, inherited version of friendship that I had was like yeah, I'm quite popular, I'm quite fun, I also do lots of things. So I have friends from all these different communities and the different interests that I'm into and a lot of my friendships were just based on fun, like shared experiences and fun, which is great, and we've had loads of wonderful experiences. They probably lacked some depth right, but at the time I used to be running from my own family, though family was not fun for me my family I wasn't necessarily aware of this, but now I know my family was quite dysfunctional and toxic. In my family of origin and sort of the family that I come from, it's got lots of issues, like lots of people's families have. So what I didn't realise was, like you, I was recreating family too. I was really drawn to everything as a family.

Speaker 2: 32:20

I used to use that label for all the different communities that I was involved in and when things changed in my family dynamic, that was when things changed in my friendships and I didn't recognise that or understand that, but I did accept the call to make changes in the way I showed up. I started to see my family as the community system that is and the role that I played, which I'd fallen into there as well, right. And when I started to get conscious about what is the role that I want to play, or that I'm meant to play, because the inherited role I played was this kind of position of everyone can rely on. It was like a leadership position in a way, but without any authority, right, but everyone turned to me, everyone relied on me. It felt very burdensome, I felt very resentful and like, oh, these people, no one can do anything If it's, you know, everything's down to me kind of thing. Right, and I don't feel like I've got anywhere to turn. Actually, right, it's like the buck stops here.

Speaker 2: 33:29

So when I recognized that there was a genuine leadership position in my family that was supposed to be standing in right, which I could reclaim and do it in my way, which actually involved me stopping speaking to my dad, you know it made me go out to go. No contact with my dad, for reasons that probably come up in a different episode. We took so much courage and permission to do that. I knew it was the right thing to do, but that has such a big effect on me.

Speaker 2: 33:58

For a long time I didn't know what was going on. All I knew is that all my friendships were changing. And it was a friend, a dear friend, and this is something about what I like in my friendships. I like friendships like this. She said to me one day when I was sort of saying I don't know what's going on, I just feel like I can't, I don't want to do anything, I don't want to do the things I used to do, and you know like it feels like all my friendships are like changing. And she said to me you know I'm not supposed to do anything. You know I'm not surprised. You know, if you change your relationship with your parents, it's going to have a knock on effect on your relationships everywhere.

Speaker 2: 34:37

And it was like, of course, you know, for years I had to tolerate certain things in my family, to be in my family, to be in my family the way that and kind of keep the peace as best as I could. I'm not a really keep the peace kind of person, but you know I had to not see stuff, I had to be in denial because that was the family way. I had to excuse a lot of shitty behavior, a lot of toxic behavior, and tolerate and put up with a lot of shit as normal. So once I'd said no to that over here, you know, with my dad and even with my mom to some degree, because she wanted me to carry on speaking to him, it had a knock on effect. I couldn't tolerate it. It's like well, mate, if I can stop speaking to my dad like I don't owe anyone anything.

Speaker 2: 35:30

And also those friendships. A lot of friendships were built on this other foundation that I wasn't living anymore, you know. So I kind of just withdrew. I withdrew from a lot of friendships. It felt really good. I do not regret a single minute of it, by the way, none at all. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:52

I think this is such permission. I really appreciate you bringing it in because one, you know this, that what it takes to be in a position where you're willing to stop contact with a parent is a big journey for someone, and I know some of the details, right Like so I know what that was like and, of course, right, that is a major kind of soul upgrade of like. This is why I will no longer tolerate in my life Like this is now intolerable. I'm now a no to this.

Speaker 1: 36:31

And if I'm a no to this in my family of origin which is, I think, some of the closest relationships for me have always been the hardest to set boundaries because you've been in a dynamic for someone with what? 40 years or 30 years, right, you've been in a entrenched dynamic with a family member. If you can crawl out of that hole and like break loose of that prison, of all of the places where you know you feel the duty and obligation and dependence to act in a particular way, then it does create freedom and permission to start doing it. In places that where the stakes are a little bit lower, you know they're people who you value or you've had a great time with at periods of time. They've the friendships been something at a certain period of time, but you recognize now this is actually not it anymore.

Speaker 1: 37:21

And I think this is like you're giving permission here in two places. One is in the family of origin, which is huge, and the second is then the knock on effect to the quality of relationships in your life. I don't think we realize how much energy is like infiltrated with energy that is not conducive to our juicy, thriving by staying in relationships that are no longer resonant and a fit and nourishing to us, like it. I don't think we really have a concept of that. Until we really start taking them out, then the cost of like engaging in a specific dynamic can be really high. And as you were speaking, I was thinking about when I moved to France, coming up three years ago now. My family was also in a huge rupture. My parents were separating and there'd been a lot that was kind of swept up from under the floorboards. Finally, we were sort of addressing as a family a lot of stuff from the past and I knew after many, many years of being right in the center of it and always being the one kind of holding everything together, I really felt like it's time to go and it's time to go and build my life somewhere else.

Speaker 1: 38:43

It was not an easy decision and it was very hard to leave for many, many reasons. But I do remember the first couple of years here. It was also COVID, so it was like double whammy. I went through and even up until very recently I've gone through so many. I had so many relationships in my life, I had so many things to reflect on and I wanted more for myself. I wanted I still. I still the case now. I want a particular life, I want to feel a particular way in my relationship with myself and I really had to pull a lot of power and energy back to myself where I had been kind of participating in how do I even describe it? I wouldn't. Duties, duties not really been my sport.

Speaker 2: 39:41

What's your sport?

Speaker 1: 39:44

I think it's like, if I was to summarize it like I had a lot of you know, I'm a, you know both of us right were coaches right, and in my friendship friendships a couple of years ago, when I was especially earlier and newer to the game, my earlier years, I would find myself in that role in all of my friendships not all of them, but most of them where I was the go-to person. So it would mean that my sense of value for myself was how brilliant I could be to help my friend out in a crisis or a need or say something. Brilliant. That would be, you know, profound wisdom. And it took me a while to recognize, like wow, there's a place in me, one I seem to think that I know better about these other people's lives than they do about themselves. So that's the first fucking thing. Second thing was like wow, there's a place in me that where I'm not valuing myself fully, like I'm not a circus monkey.

Speaker 2: 40:50

Rescueing that's what I kind of hear.

Speaker 1: 40:52

It's like, yeah, it's total rescuing, like and it's like it's not even about them, it was about me. And this kind of the most tender breakthrough I've had in the last six months, I'd say but it's been kind of brewing for multiple years is what if I could be met fully in every single one of my close relationships? And when I really look at what that means for me to feel met fully, the bar is high.

Speaker 2: 41:23

Yeah, same, I totally get that. And I kind of heard the family of origin stuff in there as well, because both of us it sounds like we both played the role of rescuer in the old dynamic in the family. Right, I sat here and just said it all comes down to me. I've got to solve everyone's problems all the time. So same thing in friendships. It was like I was used to being the one in a position to help and feel like I have to all the time because that's the role I play. But the other thing was that changed things for me was I wasn't getting it back. And no disrespect to anyone, that's not what they brought to the friendship. That wasn't what. That wasn't their strength, that wasn't what they were capable of. And, hello, what about me? I'd like to not just be emptied all the time. I want to be full. Didn't know that was a thing.

Speaker 2: 42:16

Family of origin stuff, not normal to be met mutually, a healthy, fair exchange. It wasn't what I was brought up in. I was brought up to be taken from and depended, right. And then obviously you've got women just general woman gender stuff in there as well. Right, that's not just a thing that's specific to me, but I actually think, around the time that I met you, I started to have people coming into my life where I was experiencing something completely different. Right, I was experiencing more of that exchange, more of that fair and mutual exchange, and then feeling that feeling of what it feels like to be in the space where maybe I feed and unfed at the same time, walking away from interactions of like, wow, someone can hold me too sometimes, because I need that too, I need to be supported too.

Speaker 2: 43:17

Right, it's not like just one-way traffic and also people mean well. So it's not that people don't want to, people do mean well. But you can just feel when you're trained and the way we are in our nature, people just I don't know it feels like they've got like a rule book, a little phrase book of oh, when someone says this, this is what you say back. So you feel like you're met with these kind of oh my God, basic shit. Oh well, never mind, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Speaker 2: 43:51

Or you could just feel the kind of discomfort with anything and I was going through such big things as like, no, this is not the time for me to not be held and to be unintentionally dismissed because they can't be with the depth of what I can be with. I needed to be around people who were equally as courageous as me, making equally as courageous decisions because that was now going to be my community or people that had done it in the past and understood what it is to go against the grain of so many things in our world. So I had to become a friend to myself. That was a piece. That was a big piece. I wasn't. I didn't have that before.

Speaker 1: 44:42

Oh, it's so beautiful. I love that we're talking about this. I really do. I think this is like the perfect topic. I want to read something. So, because of what you just touched on, there was like the thing you're actually needing, right, and for someone listening, right. Like how much time have you spent really feeling what do I need in friendship? And that's an ever-revolving thing as you grow, right. So I'm a big fan of John O'Donohue and he's a late Irish poet. So he wrote a book called Anamkara about soul friendship and I actually just finished reading it very recently that it was just absolutely stunning. And I'm not sure if this quote comes from the book, because I wrote many of his quotes down. This one is all about belonging and I'm going to read it. I would love to do it in his gorg. No, please don't. Do a little bit.

Speaker 2: 45:56

He's got a lovely voice. Do a little bit. He's got a lovely voice. Irish Brogue.

Speaker 1: 46:01

No, okay, okay, oh, it's so deep. Okay, how about he's not? No, try it one more time, okay.

Speaker 2: 46:29

Don't look at me.

Speaker 1: 46:31

Okay, it's too good. I'm trying to do Irish Brogue for anyone's on the edge of his seat. Oh, but he's not. John, may you rest in peace.

Speaker 2: 46:49

John is turning in his grave right now, sorry.

Speaker 1: 46:55

I'm usually great at accents.

Speaker 2: 46:58

I don't really live. Let's not lie to ourselves.

Speaker 1: 47:03

I'm usually really good. I'm usually really good. Oh my God, one time when me and my family my family is super quirky, super weird. And one time we went on holiday and my younger brother told he was like probably about five or six, you know kind of like making friends for the first time on holiday, and he made friends with these kids and he, the first thing he did was tell them that our family so me and my brothers were the English Bob Slay champions, and he also told them that our dog had a million dollar claw, oh my God. And then he started speaking with an Irish accent. Oh, I'll never forget. I'll never forget. So, anyway, he came back from this holiday with a full Irish accent. Oh, we were absolutely dying. So that's what I make people think of Our buddy Snow. He belongs. Yeah, I'm going to do it properly now.

Speaker 1: 48:29

All right, john and Donna here, thank you for your absolutely gorgeous wisdom. Our bodies know that they belong. It is our minds that make our lives so homeless, guided by longing. Belonging is the wisdom of rhythm. When we're in rhythm with our own nature, things flow and balance naturally. Every fragment does not have to be relocated, reordered. Things cohere and fit according to their deeper impulse and instinct. Our modern hunger to belong is particularly intense. An increasing majority of people feel no belonging. We have fallen out of rhythm with life. The art of belonging is the recovery of the wisdom of rhythm. What I interpret with what he says here is when we're not friends with ourselves and we don't belong to something inside, it is so hard to then find belonging. We have this sort of starvation of belonging and the way we interact with each other in this modern world you talked about Facebook earlier the thousands of friends and just never, ever ending things and knowing what your childhood friend is doing and eating for breakfast, so not normal. Then we have this attempt at belonging, which usually looks like codependence and holding on tightly and being very caught up in the way we identify and really clinging to this idea of belonging but never actually having it fully. I think it can come a lot more easier when we know ourselves.

Speaker 1: 50:11

When you were speaking, I was inspired by you. Talk about courage. Right, I need to be around, courageous and things like to change for you, around what eight, nine years ago? Around that period of time? For me, I'm like an ocean dweller. I like to travel to the fucking deep, deep ocean. I want to go five hours deep with you over there somewhere right. I want to be around people that want to go there too and want to have that conversation. I also want to be inspired. I think being inspired in friendship is really important 100%. The relationship is a source of life's inspiration. It is a channel for life's inspiration and courage. I absolutely love that. Courage is infectious. I love hearing your stories and processes.

Speaker 1: 51:11

In an earlier episode we talked about the inspiration for this podcast came from us speaking every day for eight years. We've called it. We've called this our private conversations the podcast for a long time, with never with an intention to share it or create something from it, but with an intention for it to be a place where we get fed. Then, very naturally, it's turned into this gorgeous creation. The experience of having that with you has been a major source of creative inspiration and courage. I can think back to so many milestones, amazing moments in life, deep in the trench moments in life. I can think about what we were saying to each other on that day. I have a reference of a topic that we were riffing on and inspiring each other with from that time. That, to me is what's possible in friendship when you taste it.

Speaker 1: 52:15

You taste it yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:17

When you taste. I love when John's bang on with those words. Completely, I think when you taste what you've just described, you cannot go back. You can't. The only way you, whatever that version, is for you because I appreciate some people might not want inspiration or courage in their friendship. They might want other qualities. It's important to know what it is that you need, obviously, but once you really start to get that and you get fed by it, I think that's the clue for me. Proper friendships, the ones that benefit you, should feed you.

Speaker 2: 52:48

I'm thinking there was a period in the last couple of months, wasn't there, where we were going to record a podcast and then we didn't. I think I was listening to one of the older ones, kind of preparing a failure. I heard this piece where you said our friendship fed us first. We didn't be like oh, we're friends, oh, these are great, we should make a thing out of this immediately. It fed us first.

Speaker 2: 53:19

On that day we both weren't up for it for various reasons. It was clear. It was like what we need to do is not record the podcast. What we need to do is be friends, because that's actually what the podcast needs. The podcast comes from our friendship and from us feeding ourselves. We have to make sure, as we do this podcast and put it out there this is a new thing that we're bringing into our friendship. We have to make sure that the friendship is still fit, because that's the real crux of the podcast, whereas some of the more basic that will come amongst us are just going to be all on the productivity. We don't just record the podcast. Record the podcast, it's like we're not playing that game, we're playing a completely different game. It has to. Friendships are supposed to feed you, man.

Speaker 2: 54:07

Otherwise they get it and also, I want to say this about being a friend to yourself it's the same as being in a relationship as well. I think it's like I had my period of time where I was single as well and I got to the stage where I was like, oh, this is, you know what. I'm good with myself, I like the relationship I have with myself. Anybody that comes in this is the same thing, for friendships has to top this, otherwise I'm good. This is good already and that's a really. That's a nice place to be, where it's just like mate, if it's not better than me being by myself, you can fucking do one.

Speaker 1: 54:44

But it's like you set the standard. Yeah Right, you set the standard, and how kind you are, how generous, how you take care of yourself, how you speak to yourself, how you spend your time, what you enjoy doing, how much joy, like our relationships with ourselves are the baseline, and I think that is true. I think what I noticed is that, especially for women in my life, periods of single, like time being single, can be really beneficial for this. I think it is easier, without the distraction of a relationship, to really feel what the thing we're to feel, the thing we're talking about. And I don't think it's impossible in a relationship either, but I think it's hard, I don't think it's different. I think, as you said earlier, right, like you're, you're I think you said this earlier, you may have heard it in my head but like a, it's like you start orbiting around something else. You've got a partner, you've got a long-term relationship to nurture, and the one with yourself, right, naturally.

Speaker 1: 55:53

I think what a lot of people do and I get it is they do sacrifice friendship and community for family, and it makes sense, and I actually have in my wider community. I've got I've got a community that exists all over the world and we're all kind of tied through different, different times in history. Some of us met in way back when in entrepreneurs community. Some of us are connected through Burning man, which is like a very creative center of the community. Some of us are.

Speaker 1: 56:33

I'd say that the key thing in the center of the community from my experience is a desire to create and a desire to connect and create. And inside of those conversations with those friends and a lot of them are married and are are having children now there is a constant centering of friendship and community. In the conversations about the future it is less, kind of more conventional, where you know, couple meets, has a kid and starts spending more time just as a unit. The conversations that I've been hearing and I'm not at that stage, so I'm kind of in a different phase of my life it is that no, we're actually committed to not sacrifice community, but something else gets sacrificed in doing that. So it's interesting, right, like you, we can't have it all. We do have to decide what we prioritize and there are many different ways to do it.

Speaker 2: 57:32

I love that. I love what you shared, because I think we're living in a time where we've got so many more choices about the way we do things than we've ever had before. You know, you're literally limited by your imagination. Literally right, because if you're stuck in a paradigm that's like this is what friendship is and this is. You know, this is what relationship is, and you must do this.

Speaker 2: 57:57

You know, like all those moldy ass memes on the internet about if your friend hasn't got time for you, they're not your friends. No bitch. Yeah, it's not as simple as that. You know what I'm saying. It's like the whole world does not revolve around you and your needy ass self Actually, I might start correcting these memes like actually fix it.

Speaker 2: 58:17

Codependent much, you know. Self abandon much, not here to serve you, running from yourself. Do you know what I mean? Because sometimes that was what it was starting to feel like they're kind of restless and they're like avoiding themselves and they're trying to. It felt like they're trying to use me to avoid yourself and I want to stop and face myself, you know. So I love what you described there because it just feels. It feels real and like the more I've cleaned up this shit, the more I've.

Speaker 2: 58:44

Actually. My family feels good now, right. So my family actually feels good, you know. It feels healthy because I've taken up the leadership position that I was always meant to take. That is important to help it become healthy and empower the people in it and all the other things that I think are really important in terms of good leadership, right? So my family feels incredible and now I get to experience feeling fed by them. It's a different thing, it's a different feeding, right? It's not necessarily always about depth and stuff like that, but it's about something else. It just feels like it's about love and safety.

Speaker 2: 59:27

Safety is a big thing for me and friendships actually Safety huge. You know, and I didn't know that before. That's one of my genuine metrics feeling emotionally and psychologically safe. If I don't feel emotionally and psychologically safe with you, 150%. We are not friends, we are acquaintances and you are optional to me. But that's a hard. I've got a hard no on not feeling safe Because, again, that was my upbringing.

Speaker 2: 1:00:01

I was the golden child of a narcissist. It's confusing as hell. There's an element of not feeling safe that's just like in your bones. Your whole life, your whole fucking life, you know, is key to your survival. So reclaiming that cleaning up internally enough and being able to see and pull and that was to me and actually also what I'm capable of when I have those conditions of safety within my relationships and I like to think that I'm safe. Actually, you know, to the people who I'm actually in a friendship with Other people, I don't feel like I already think to Like there's a big thing for me about boundaries and knowing who you owe things to and who you don't owe things to, and again, it's just about defining. It took years I want to just make that clear. This took me about seven years. It feels like to get to a stage where I could redefine it for myself and live according to my own metrics.

Speaker 1: 1:01:05

There's two things I want to like riff off in what you just shared. First one is because it's powerful, right? Like you know, some people might hear that and be like, wow, I never thought that was available to me, Right? What I hear is that you aren't willing to be in relationship with someone that would threaten your stability.

Speaker 2: 1:01:32

Yeah, amen my internal stability. Yeah, yes. I can't do that to myself.

Speaker 1: 1:01:37

Right, and I think that if you've never even felt internal stability because you're so used to chaos and instability, then that might seem like a really far away, like that might actually seem quite harsh, right, like what do you mean? Just like no, you know that I can imagine someone I can totally relate to that. Like well, there's always a kind of gray and there's always a not. It's like, actually, when you're clear what that feels like, you can do the exact thing you're saying, which is like it's not even a, it's just a no, it's an unwillingness.

Speaker 2: 1:02:12

And it's a yes. It's a yes to something else as well, right. So it's a no to them, but it's a yes to me, it's a yes to I don't want to say, I wouldn't say love in myself, but that just feels not quite enough. But it is a yes to sort of self nurture, taking care of myself, not neglecting myself.

Speaker 1: 1:02:38

Yeah, right right, but I wanted to like expand on something because I think I can imagine I can imagine this is a question someone might have which is so in our personal growth world, in the world of kind of you know, okay, we're kind of recognizing that we've grown up in these really unstable environments. We're adults now, we're taking responsibility for ourselves, we're starting to recognize what our needs are, we're starting to protect our boundaries and actually really protect our internal sense of stability and safety and realize that we, you know, after maybe a lifetime of feeling that we couldn't, we're realizing that we can. And then we come into the world of personal growth and transformation and there's a lot of tools available to help you with this kind of. What I see is available is a lot of tools available for how to start communicating about boundaries, and what I tend to see people do is pick up the tool without the transformation. So I and I often get asked this by clients and students like how do I start having boundaries with people, how do I start the process of actually recognizing that I need to be a? No, and you know, could give you all the tools in the world.

Speaker 1: 1:04:01

But actually I think that, depending on like, there are different ways of communicating depending on your level of depth and intimacy and care for the person involved. So, as an example, I was like if it's somebody on the internet, that's just like trolling you, right, you can be quite blunt, right, there's no explanation needed. If there's like a friendship or you're a no to something, right, like you can, you can say thank you so much for the invitation. I'm actually, you know, prioritizing myself right now and I'm a no to that. You know I'm not going to be coming right. You can give that's like a little bit more information for someone, that you're giving them information because you care about them, that you're basically the thing I'm trying to say here is in the personal growth world, it's kind of like just set a boundary. You no need to explain anything to anyone ever, and I actually think that the closest somebody is to us, the more love we can give in communicating to them.

Speaker 2: 1:05:12

We can actually explain things.

Speaker 2: 1:05:18

Yeah, and I think I'm listening to you and it's you're kind of making me think a lot, because we saw that we have the answers to things here. We're just kind of chewing the fat, right, and we're not, and this is what the message that I'm giving to myself is like. Okay, so I'm not doing a class right now, because if I was doing a class, I would have prepared the content and, do you know, I'm going to give it some thought and create exercises and all this kind of stuff, and then in a one to one session I'll be taking the client's lead. So, really, all I can talk about is my own experience and my own process. Right, and I'm somebody who I'm a one step at a time girl, because when you're speaking, I was thinking you asked a question.

Speaker 2: 1:06:09

I can't know what it was now, but I was. It was all. How do you know when it's time to set a boundary? And it set my, my mind off like how did I know? And I don't know. I actually don't know where it starts, but all I know is it probably had nothing to do with friendship at all. Right, there's something for me about one step at a time.

Speaker 2: 1:06:32

This was a complete what I'm describing to you, like in this podcast, was totally something that unfolded and emerged. I didn't fucking know, you know I didn't. I was no sort of like I want to set a boundary with my friendships or I want better friends. I didn't know, you don't know what you don't know, right. So there was obviously some goal that I was, because I think you know you set goals for something often unrelated to this, and then you grow into the person who can have the thing and who, and that freaking, wild and weird and wonderful journey will take you in so many more places than if you're like I want this, you know the very willful place, and I appreciate that there are lots of people in the world that can't hang out in the unknown and the uncertain to that degree. Right, I get that and that's fine.

Speaker 2: 1:07:22

But I do think honesty you know, being honest with yourself is important, and then the awareness as well, because when we open up and actually start to be honest, so like honesty might look like I don't really feel good. Every time I spend time with that person, yeah, or even sometimes when they pop up on my screen in social media, there's an a physical reaction of like go away. Who cares? You know, get curious about things like that, because I think a lot of the times, what people do people reasonable people like us, right, not trolls will try and justify oh, maybe I'm being this way, or maybe I should do this, or obviously, maybe there's something I should look at in myself that's been reflected. Like you know, sometimes these things are the case, sometimes they're not as well right, and also so fucking what like you have to give yourself permission sometimes to be unreasonable in service of yourself. We're not doing it because we're brats, but this is like you're teaching people how to treat you with how you treat yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:08:40

You know in my right and you know, in my work I work with concepts of masculine and feminine energy to help people tapping into their power, and I work with concepts of wounded and healthy expressions of both right, which we all have and we all always will have. And what's interested in my model, which is often a surprise to people, is there's a lot of things that people would assume are healthy feminine energy and actually wounded feminine energy, and one of those things are like we have a lot of things like being loving and kind, I put with healthy feminine energy, how, and sort of codependency and self abandonment with wounded feminine energy. However, if your love and kindness and care for others does not involve you, it's not love or care or kindness, it's codependency, simple. So you might feel like you're being this wonderful person, but you are not. You are setting yourself on fire for no reason. And if you're so, for me it's not even like.

Speaker 2: 1:09:52

Let's start using the real words, because there's too much of using the wrong words for things, right, too much of like oh, I'm being a nice person. You are not being a nice person to me if you do not like me and you are pretending that you like me. You are not being a nice person. You are lying yeah, let's use the real words because it's causing a lot of problems. So you have to have access to everything, right, the whole range. When you have access to your know and you're like I'm a no for this, you also have access to like I'm a hell motherfucking yes to this right. People will feel your warmth, your love, your care, not because you're performing it, and that comes from doing it to yourself First. That's hard, that bit's hard. I don't even like to you ongoing work, but that's that that will change your entire world. Everything in your life will be positively affected by coming into good and healthy relationship with yourself and turning a blind eye to what is going on out there.

Speaker 2: 1:10:52

Because you know, in our industry, you know I'm a relationship coach. I know loads of people in who are relationship coaches are terrible at relationships, terrible, pumping out all sorts of shit on the internet. It's just not true. I disembodied shit that they've never lived a day in their life because they're terrified of conflict, right, or something that's like. You know what I mean. So it's yeah, I don't know if I went off on one there. I don't know if I changed the subject. Maybe I did. Who knows I was?

Speaker 1: 1:11:31

just, I just let you have it, babe, it was so good.

Speaker 2: 1:11:37

I'm passionate about this, though, because we're doing ourselves a disservice by thinking that we're in friendships when we're not. You're missing out with you.

Speaker 1: 1:11:47

I fully agree with you. I think the thing that was coming up for me as you were speaking was I thought I fought two things One, first of all, I was well. Three things. First of all, I was loving. We were getting like the Lola Smackdown because I felt great, I was like there she is.

Speaker 1: 1:12:08

But also I felt like I really think the people in my life really know largely where they stand with me right, like I really do demonstrate my love for them in a way that I love myself and that will be being very clear on my availability and I know that that can hurt and disappoint. And in the last few years I have been far less available as I've been prioritizing truly my I was like I want a different life. In order for me to have that life, I have to prioritize different things, and it has meant being a lot more protective and I think that's a good thing. And so I was thinking about that. I was thinking like I think that my close friends would say 100%, that they get that, that that nutrient of somebody who's willing to back themselves and what they need, no matter what.

Speaker 2: 1:13:08

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:13:10

The second thing I was thinking was, for me, the most uncomfortable kind of friend dynamic is being in a friendship with a people pleaser oh gross. And what I mean specifically is like somebody who does things out of resonance with where the relationship is at and what is true in the relationship, right? So think about, like you know, some friendships have come, come in hard and fast and and that person's been like extremely generous, to the point that their attention is all on me and their attention is not on themselves, and you can see that this is a pattern they have with other people. For me, it's very hard to trust that person because I know that they're abandoning something that they need to be in relationship with me.

Speaker 2: 1:14:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:14:05

And so at some point I'm waiting for that person to like we could call that sort of an anxious leaning in, like a sort of like almost trying to buy friendship with generosity. And look, I've definitely done this when I was younger. This is 100% been something that has been part of my journey as well, of like not knowing how to build authentic connections one step at a time, which is one of the most powerful things you said in that recent sermon. You did like actually taking it one step at a time and doing that when you're building something with someone. So I've definitely been on the receiving end of like a real big, anxious lean in and and then somebody just totally leaving and boasting and just like okay, bye. And then being like, oh, there was a, there was an assumption of intimacy that wasn't actually there because of all of the kind of gift giving and the lavish, the kind of we look at each other and we go, oh, no, no, no, no, that's all fake bonding and I've had that happen a few times.

Speaker 1: 1:15:02

And so now that pattern is I'm very wary of that when I feel that in somebody, like somebody who's needing something from me very evidently and it looks different from the say it looks different from the like they need my coaching or they want sort of like the free booth. It looks different from that. It looks like they actually need a friend and I happen to be the person, okay, and it's like I'm just pick of the month, you know, and it's like they're doing their thing. And I think it's often relatively unconscious in people. They don't even know they're doing it and they just go from friend to friend and and those people usually tend to not have great relationships with people. They don't have sustained relationships with people.

Speaker 1: 1:15:47

They know a lot of people though they know a lot of people yeah they're constantly turning in the next person, the next Olivia, and I do not like that.

Speaker 2: 1:15:56

Is it like are you? Is it like you they're wooing you feel like the kind of it's almost like you're being courted or being wooed.

Speaker 1: 1:16:05

Okay, and then it would be the same if it would be actually would be the same in a romantic setting, and it's. You know, I live in France now and there's a lot more emphasis on courting is more of a thing here. Right Like a French man will show up at your door with flowers, a French man will like be very romantic from the first minute you've met and you can make an assumption that you're some special Wonder Woman. But actually that's just the way they are, that's who they are and that's how they demonstrate their love and affection. And but if somebody was doing that in a way that felt I've also experienced that from men where it feels manipulative because it's so intense and so out of resonance with where we're at that it feels like this person needs to do this to feel a sense of value in themselves. It's not really about me Like love bombing, yes, love bombing A version of love bombing yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:17:04

God, friendship is like complex. I definitely think that it's something that we need to spend time thinking. I think when I read, when it really hit me was when those shifts were happening I just was like I've lost. I don't know whatever it was that was pulling me towards certain people just went. I didn't understand it. And so again, decision by decision, I suppose, just a no to like many things, most things like just you know you want to do it. No, actually I don't.

Speaker 2: 1:17:44

And getting out of friendships I'm okay now because I'm much more conscious about getting into them. But we've said it's not with everyone. I actually think this is about certain people. Yeah, that's how it feels to me, because there are some people I've known who as soon as they see you, they want to see you again, like we've just hung out and it's like, oh, that's so great. When can we do it Again? That kind of energy is not for me Right, and I think those kind of people have created a bit of an issue for me, because actually most people are nothing like that, but I know they exist and it feels like a bit of a web to get out of and I remember thinking so I can withdraw.

Speaker 2: 1:18:37

So for me there's a whole different. There's all these different ways of coming out of friendships, right, you can kind of have a big fight and a kind of big blow up thing can happen. You could have like a conversation. You could have no conversation, right, that's also possible. And there are some relationships where I've just withdrawn. Sometimes I just withdraw. Some people call that ghosting, but I just withdraw and I know that gets a really bad rap. But again, in my frame of reference it doesn't. I don't see it as a bad thing. I think it hurts. I do think it hurts people. I'm sure people are hurt from that and that's a different issue. But I think and you're good at this, so you're good at like, having the conversations and sort of taking the time to get out of things, all this kind of stuff For me that's a lot of energy and not everybody deserves that energy from me.

Speaker 2: 1:19:39

I don't have that energy to be especially because I don't even require it In my world, maybe against ADHD thing, but in my world this is like it's not, you know, just it's not a big deal Like I think that people can grow apart. It just feels weird that we have this label. So I just feel like people grow apart. People change. People grow apart. People change, people go through different seasons. But and it's not romantic relationships that's different, right, obviously, if you're a long-term relationship, something that's different or a relationship, but this kind of and I think the thing for me as well is that sometimes I don't know what's going on and people require information. I remember there was times I used to try and put pressure on myself Cause I'd be like I don't even know. I'm not sure what I would say even if we had a conversation, cause I don't know what's happening. I can't justify my feelings to you, so I don't understand them yet and I can't also try and rush the process because you need something.

Speaker 1: 1:20:44

Yes, right, and that was the one where Okay, this is important, yeah, this is important because, you know, we I think ghosting is this term that's kind of understood more contextually in romantic settings and to me somebody ghosting is a very clear communication, right, that they're no longer interested. You could send a follow up and say hey, noticed, you know, I wanted to see you again. Notice, you know, if things feel distant and that person might have the courtesy to say you know, I'm actually you're not feeling this, you know, wishing you all the best. They might not right, and actually they don't owe you that. And is it, you know, kinder to hear from someone if you ask a direct question? Yes, right, in that context, you know, ghosting happens a lot In the friendship, in the context of friendship.

Speaker 1: 1:21:37

What I think is interesting about this terminology of the withdrawal is, to me this feels healthy, given that we are probably having dozens of friendships at one time. Right, it is not sustainable to be having closure conversations and processing conversations with friendships. Every friendship that you feel may no longer be a resonant fit. If somebody requires that they're allowed to ask, I would say in my world, you're allowed to ask me and I could say there's nothing really to say Like I love you and you know that you know, kind of like I'm prioritizing my life over here. I would love to live in a world where, or continue creating a world where we have permission for all of it. We actually have permission to have the hard conversation with someone that may set us free if it's necessary.

Speaker 1: 1:22:34

I think sometimes that can be a great step, especially for me.

Speaker 1: 1:22:37

You know, in doing that I'm somebody who has a tendency to be codependent in my relationship, so me acknowledging that I need space is a big step, and sometimes the conversation is far more conducive to my own growth than not having it. And in other times I'm also a withdrawal and there's been times I've felt bad about that. I don't feel bad about that now and sometimes, you know, I think our fantasy mind, my fantasy mind, can wander and be like oh wonder why that happened, when it's just normal, like there are seasons of life and there are people come into your life for reasons, right, and I would hope that that's the way that I feel about it, and I think that I can imagine that there are people in my life who have a tendency to be codependent in their life, to travel with you as a soul, friend or some version of a friend for a period of time Could be a lifetime. I can imagine some of the people in my life are going to be people I'm going to be picking up the phone with in 40 years.

Speaker 1: 1:23:43

I hope so, and if not, I would imagine that, if they're not in my life for whatever reason, that the caliber of them is a lifetime of friendships. And there are people in my life now. I'm sure that there's going to be seasons. They're not going to be here when I get married and start a family, right Like I'm sure that we people in my life that are currently in my life that it will no longer be a resonant fit, and I think there should be so much more permission for that to be a loving thing. I love you. We've had a great time together, but it can be perceived often as you dropped me, you didn't need me anymore, you outgrew me, you did, as usually some villain, some victim in this dynamic versus a natural kind of it is just the nature of life.

Speaker 2: 1:24:35

Totally, totally, totally, totally agree and I think, as we're sitting here talking about it, like I said, well in my world, anywhere can I talk about that. It's actually only a minority of people that cause problems here, but it's just that they can cause such a problem and I think that's a clue in and of itself. I think there's sometimes there's a degree of toxicity in the air. I think maybe we're being guilt tripped or something. Other stuff is going on and everything you described there.

Speaker 2: 1:25:07

And when you said the wedding as well, I found that really interesting because at this point in my 45 years I've been to lots of different weddings.

Speaker 2: 1:25:14

You know many of my peers are on their seconds, maybe thirds, right, and it's in credits. There's a thing I've never been married so far, but there's a thing where loads, you know a lot of people when they look at their wedding pictures, it's just full of people they don't actually have any contact with anymore, right, that's the reality. So for me, all I'm saying what I'm to with all of this stuff. I'm just talking about matching the reality of what's actually happening as opposed to this is what's happening. And then we've got all these judgments about oh that's bad, because XYZ reason and they send the other. It's like no, but this is actually really natural. And also, oh, you know once you, there is that work to do to let people go and you never know when they're gonna come back in as well, you just don't know, right, but there is that work to just let people be and let people go and let things end because something else wants to come in.

Speaker 1: 1:26:17

Yes, that's right. I had something really beautiful once where where I've also a lot of my friends have got married and some of my friends are on there, you know. Second round. What I have seen is a question around and I thought this was really inspiring and I would love to adopt this myself, really sitting down with that wedding list and really asking myself what people do I wanna invest in over the next five, 10 years of my life? Those are the people I want in my wedding and it cuts a lot of people and I think that can be really hard and I would find that really hard because I know for sure there are people I would love to have my wedding that I know aren't gonna be relationships I'm gonna be investing into the next five, 10 years.

Speaker 1: 1:27:16

So there's obviously nuance and grade to this, but actually as a framing when you're really looking at you're committing to. So you know I've got a lot of close friends who are married and you know when they've gone through any kind of struggle in their marriage, I'm standing right there saying you know I'm here, I watched you get married. I made a vow to you that when times got tough I'd be a friend to you as a couple, like you asked that of the people that were at your wedding. And here we are you know 10 years down the line or whatever, where that's happening and like, hey, and I take that role very seriously. If I'm invited to someone's wedding, I'm like I'm being invited into, depending on the nature of the wedding.

Speaker 1: 1:27:59

Some weddings aren't intentional and that's not communicated, but when it is, hey, you are our people. I'm like, all right, sign me up for this job. And it has. It's been something I've referred back to. I was invited in to watch their commitment to them and I serve a role as their friend to reflect back to them what they committed to each other. I would want that for myself, that the people I'm inviting in are the ones that are gonna hold me.

Speaker 2: 1:28:30

Yeah, you're a great friend. You are, you're a really great friend. You're a committed friend and there's a lot of intentionality in friendship for you and I love that about you, that it's there's that responsibility, peace. I love that Cause. Actually, how many of us just go to weddings?

Speaker 2: 1:28:54

That's it you know, yeah, and you're going with this level of commitment and care. That's like something completely different, and I think what I love when I hear you say that is again that kind of stimulates my imagination of like, oh yeah, again, it's that constant question how would I like it to be? How would I like friendship to be? You know what would be the dream, how would I like it to be what? You know, things that we hear from you, things that we maybe see on you know shows or films, we might see, certain things that we are like, oh, that's important. You know I want that, and I think for me, honestly, one of the main things is just like you don't need to see me all the time.

Speaker 1: 1:29:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:29:40

There's a big part of friendship for me, like what I'm saying, there is trust in the friendship that we have.

Speaker 1: 1:29:47

Yes, yes, well, even think about us, right? We live in different countries, but we speak every day and we're about to see each other again next week. Yes, get in, but we haven't. We were trying to figure out last and be sure it's. I had to go through our shared photos to see when was the last picture of us, and then I was like my God, it was like January 2021, like nearly two years ago. You know, we've had, we've tried to see each other.

Speaker 2: 1:30:14

Can't it be January 2021? No, surely not.

Speaker 1: 1:30:17

Sorry, it was.

Speaker 2: 1:30:18

No, it was last year. It was last year, which was January 2021.

Speaker 1: 1:30:22

Sorry, sorry, it was lockdown and yeah, you're right. You're right, it was last year, january 2022. So it was like 18 months, at least 18 months ago, because I was flying back from the States and I came. Anyway, we figured it out and I know we've tried to see each other since then. I've been back a few times and like we've tried to figure out and it's just been like, oh no, it's actually not the spot, like it's been a bit rushed or you know. But then this time it's funny, like when I made the plan, the reason I was like going back to the UK is because I've ordered all these supplements. I can't get to the Netherlands. So I was like, all right, I'll get the train back, I'll go and see my family. And, funnily enough, I've lived in France now for two years three years, sorry and I go back almost on a monthly basis.

Speaker 1: 1:31:11

There's been a lot happening in my family, been a lot of crisis. It's been back to back crisis. Very few chips have I done for pleasure and for desire's sake. And what's been interesting is 99% of my friends in the UK I have not seen in these trips back.

Speaker 1: 1:31:29

My family has been the absolute priority and the only person I have seen is only people I have seen is you, bob and Nina, like there's a few others, like there's a sort of priority of like well, I'm so infrequently here, even though I'm coming back semi-regularly, there has not been the space for other friends and I feel sad about that and I do not know, with the way that I've currently set my life at, whether that's going to change anytime soon. Right, like there isn't the space. So this time around, when we were planning, I was like, oh, I'm finally going back because it's something I need to do and I want to do. I'd love to see Lola. And you were like, oh, my God, fuck, yes, am I available? And that's that day. Yes, girl, I'm like you've been, like it's just, I'm so glad I'm coming back and I'm doing it and I'm like filling my time with friendship.

Speaker 2: 1:32:18

And it's timing, isn't it? There is something in what you're saying about the family and this is life, right, and I personally think that friendships get stuck in a teenage place and when we're teenagers like my son's a teenager now and what I'm really struck at is how good his memory is, you know, and it's like, oh God, yeah, I used to have a good memory too, before he was born how much energy and time he has in his life of very little commitment to like, pay attention to these tiny details about things. Like we get older, life gets fuller, you know. But if we're living by a teenage standard, like the teenage standard is like this kind of like I hate when people say, like, are you free on this date? And it's like that is not enough information. I need to know what I'm being free from, what I've been, what I've been free for. First of all, it's not a case of, oh, this is opening my calendar, yeah, feel it. No, love, that is not the criteria of how things get put into my day, right, because it's a very real thing, like, first and foremost, it's this you know, I'm in the sandwich generation.

Speaker 2: 1:33:37

At the end of the day, I've got an elderly mother and a young son with extra needs. Really, you know my own executive functioning issues, transition of my life, relationships that give some attention and energy to a business. You know my own personal work and sort of mental health to manage. Forget all the stuff that you gotta do every single day like feed yourself, sleep properly and all that shit Holding space for clients and facilitating workshops and I don't know. There's not much left over and there's not much left over, right? I think that's okay. I spent years neglecting some of those things that really mattered to me to keep up with friendships, social pressure. You know it's not healthy, it's not right, we're not 15. It's like what does it look like now?

Speaker 1: 1:34:37

Right, I love that. You know, I think like I've had this desire. I've got like a group of girls that we used to party together, we used to rave together back in the day and I'm in touch with them all the time. And you know, I was chatting to one another the day and it was like I said I miss you guys and I do, I really miss them and it's just not been. I have my intention but it's not lined up to go back to see them and like have our time. And you know our response was so beautiful. She was like we'll have our time, I'm not worried, we'll have our time. I can't wait.

Speaker 1: 1:35:08

And you know what that might be the next five years, who knows? Right. But just like we're in touch. I love you, love seeing your life from afar. There's a base level of love always and there'll be a time when I catch up with them. But when I'm going back, it's not a high priority to do that when it's that over my family, right. Or my best friend, right, like, who I haven't seen in nearly two years, right. So there's like there's a kind of recognition that we live busy lives, we live full lives, we're doing our very best with what we have and investing our energy and love and attention in person where it's, you know, most valuable and meaningful to us and our like heart and what we need matters a lot.

Speaker 2: 1:36:01

And I wouldn't want, as your friend, I would want you to tend to those things before you get to me, because I love you, like, truly love you, not just want you to do the things that make me feel better. It hits different. Right, it does. It hits different being friends with somebody who prioritizes their own needs over somebody who is people pleasing. Basically it feels different. I don't like being on the receiving end of people pleasers because I think that they subconsciously want me to do the same and I'm not gonna. It's inspiring. Yeah, mm.

Speaker 1: 1:36:55

I think that's a lovely place to end, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:37:01

And, if you want it, more details of our actual friendship. It's on the first podcast, podcast number one, where we introduce ourselves.

Speaker 1: 1:37:08

Yeah, our friendship is one of my favorites of all time it just is such a beautiful story and it's so rich and I think we're such a lively duo and I feel immense gratitude for the gift of you and my life. Like I think there are certain people in our lives that shape our lives greatly and the texture of our lives and the flavor of our lives, and you are definitely that person for me.

Speaker 2: 1:37:35

Aw, thanks, sweetheart. Aw, I love our friendship too. You changed the standard. You changed the standard, you blew the standard apart when we became friends and opened up the possibilities of what friendship can be. It's beautiful, I love it, I still don't even think I'd still really understand it, but it feels fucking fantastic. That's right, thank you. Thank you for showing me what's possible and having me never settle for less you are so welcome. Yeah, so that was our juicy conversation on friendship. Happy, enjoy day.