Exploring Psychedelic Therapy: Denise Rue on Healing and Transformation

In this episode of "Greetings from the Garden State," host Mike Ham sits down with Denise Rue, founder of the New Jersey Psychedelic Therapy Association and a licensed clinical social worker. Denise shares her fascinating journey from being a speech-language pathologist and poet to becoming a leading advocate for psychedelic therapy. She discusses her transformative experiences with psilocybin in Jamaica and the profound impact it had on her life and career. Denise also delves into the current legislative efforts to legalize psilocybin therapy in New Jersey, highlighting the potential benefits for mental health treatment. This episode offers a deep dive into the world of psychedelic therapy, breaking down misconceptions and exploring its therapeutic potential.

https://njpta.net/

Music: "Ride" by Jackson Pines
jacksonpines.com

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00:00:23: Introduction and Welcome
00:01:14: Denise's Background and Connection to Bill Anthes
00:02:00: Denise's Journey from California to New Jersey
00:02:33: Educational Background and Career Path
00:04:06: Transition from Poetry to Hypnosis
00:07:23: Working with Trauma and Mental Health
00:10:29: First Psilocybin Experience in Jamaica
00:12:15: Description of a Psilocybin Retreat
00:15:01: Impact of Psilocybin on Denise's Career
00:17:26: The Healing Potential of Psilocybin
00:19:46: Denise's Role in Jamaica and Return to New Jersey
00:22:38: Founding the New Jersey Psychedelic Therapy Association
00:24:57: Advocacy and Education Efforts
00:26:16: Details of the Psilocybin Behavioral Health Access and Services Act
00:33:12: Importance of Integration in Psychedelic Therapy
00:36:03: Legislative Process and Future Steps
00:38:29: Testifying Before the Senate
00:41:26: Shifting Paradigms in Mental Health Treatment
00:44:46: Resources for Learning More About Psilocybin
00:47:05: Final Thoughts on Mental Health and Inner Life

Transcript

Mike Ham [0:23 - 0:34]: All right. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of greetings from the Garden State, powered by the New Jersey lottery. I'm your host, Mike Hamm. We are here with the founder of the New Jersey Psychedelic Therapy association and licensed clinical social worker, Denise Roof. Denise, welcome to the show. 

Denise Rue [0:34 - 0:36]: Hi. So happy to be here. 

Mike Ham [0:36 - 0:51]: So happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me into your home office slash whatever you got going on here. I mean, I guess those are the two things. I like these, like, some of these old, like, tins. I like those, like, this milk, sugar. That's pretty cool. 

Denise Rue [0:51 - 0:54]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All collected. 

Mike Ham [0:54 - 0:55]: Yeah, we love it. 

Denise Rue [0:55 - 0:56]: Old timey. 

Mike Ham [0:56 - 1:14]: Yeah, for sure. So, okay, I want to talk a little. We got introduced by Bill Anthes, who's a friend of mine. Friend of the show. He's been on the show once. His wife, Cariana, has been on the show a couple times and very appreciative of that. How do you know Bill? I don't know if we ever talked about that. Did we talk about that? 

Denise Rue [1:14 - 1:20]: He is a member of the psychedelic therapy association. Okay, great. As a therapist. 

Mike Ham [1:20 - 1:52]: Right. I know that that's, like, a relatively new kind of thing for him, which I'm excited about. Cause I know that that's, like, a big part of kind of. We'll get into veterans and all that kind of stuff that you work with, but I wanted to learn a little bit about you first. So we mentioned already that you're the founder of the psychedelics Therapy association, and you're a licensed clinical social worker, but kind of like, let's give a little bit more background about you. First question we usually ask is, are you a Jersey girl, born and raised? 

Denise Rue [1:52 - 1:53]: I am not. 

Mike Ham [1:53 - 1:54]: Ah. Okay. 

Denise Rue [1:54 - 1:55]: All right. 

Mike Ham [1:55 - 1:56]: We can continue. 

Denise Rue [1:56 - 1:56]: Interview over. 

Mike Ham [1:56 - 2:00]: Interview over. So where are you from? 

Denise Rue [2:00 - 2:02]: I am from. I'm a California girl. 

Mike Ham [2:02 - 2:02]: Okay. 

Denise Rue [2:02 - 2:03]: Where are you from? 

Mike Ham [2:03 - 2:05]: A better move, I feel like. 

Denise Rue [2:05 - 2:11]: Okay. So I went to. I came east to go to graduate school. 

Mike Ham [2:11 - 2:12]: Okay, great. 

Denise Rue [2:12 - 2:18]: In New York. Lived in New York for four years, moved down south for four years, and then moved to New Jersey. 

Mike Ham [2:18 - 2:19]: Gotcha. 

Denise Rue [2:19 - 2:19]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [2:19 - 2:21]: And how do you like in New Jersey? 

Denise Rue [2:22 - 2:23]: It has so much to offer. 

Mike Ham [2:23 - 2:25]: It really does, right? Yeah. 

Denise Rue [2:25 - 2:26]: From the hills to the beaches. 

Mike Ham [2:26 - 2:33]: That's right. And so you said you went to graduate school. Out this week. 

Denise Rue [2:33 - 2:34]: At NYU. 

Mike Ham [2:34 - 2:40]: At NYU. So what'd you go for? And then how does the process start? 

Denise Rue [2:40 - 2:52]: Okay, so I've had many different incarnations. So my first career was as a speech language pathologist, and I did that for 15 years. 

Mike Ham [2:52 - 2:52]: Oh, wow. 

Denise Rue [2:53 - 4:06]: During the time that I raised my kids then. I had always been writing poetry and got very involved in the New Jersey poetry scene. And then I went and I got my master in fine arts at Sarah Lawrence College, Miami, and poetry. And I taught poetry in nursing homes, schools, a woman's prison. Then I got interested in hypnosis. I studied hypnosis. I had my own hypnosis business, and then I moved into volunteering for hospice. And this was after my brother had died at 61 of cancer, and I had been able to help him with his pain with hypnosis. And I thought, I can do this. And so I started volunteering in hospice, and I loved it so much. And that's when I decided to go back to school for social work. So I started at Rutgers in social work very late in life, and I graduated in 2012. 

Mike Ham [4:06 - 4:18]: Yeah, that's really interesting and not what I expected you were going to start talking about. And so, like, from the poetry to the hypnosis thing, I have a question. Why? What got you into hypnosis? 

Denise Rue [4:19 - 5:43]: I was going through a rough time in my life, and I had a friend who'd been very helped very much by hypnosis, and I was just fascinated by it. And I saw someone, and it was transformative. I had about three or four sessions, and I just said, I have to learn how to do this. And then she asked me to come work for her after I got my certification. And then after about a year, I started my own business. And it's been really instrumental in the way that I see consciousness. And then I. The way that I work in therapy, which is really honoring the power of the unconscious and our inner healing intelligence and working with the shadow aspects of our psyche, which hold so much potential and vitality. Most people keep their shadow at arm's length, but we all have shadow material, and once it's brought up into the light of day, it can bring us so much healing. So that really has informed me in my work. But when you're fiddling around with someone's unconscious, it's a lot of responsibility, and that's why I went back to school for social work and also to work in hospice. 

Mike Ham [5:43 - 6:16]: Yeah. And I think that's interesting, too, because it's like marrying two things, and maybe we could almost kind of, like, dispel a myth about hypnosis. Cause I feel like most people when probably listening to this show because we don't do this is like, the first episode we've ever done that's similar to what we're talking about today. You know, it's like you go to, like, a party and there's like a hypnotist there, and he's like, making somebody bark like a dog or whatever. That's not what we're talking about, obviously. We're talking about kind of like, you know, being able to help people. And I think that's really cool. 

Denise Rue [6:17 - 7:11]: Yeah. And we're all in trance much of the day. When we're in. When we're not in the present moment, if we're thinking of the past and every bad thing that happened to us, we're in a trance. And that usually leads to depression. If we're thinking about the future and everything that can go wrong, we're in a trance of the future, and that induces anxiety. So to become aware of those bad trances and then be able to use your mind, which is so powerful, to give you positive hypnotic suggestions. And all hypnosis is self hypnosis. It's nothing that the hypnotherapist does to you. We all have this potential, and it's very powerful. It's too bad that it has kind of move to the sidelines in this country. 

Mike Ham [7:11 - 7:23]: Yeah. And when you went to school for social work, you know, and all that, and started working in that field, did you, like, know already that you were going to be able to bring the hypnosis side of you? 

Denise Rue [7:23 - 7:25]: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Mike Ham [7:25 - 7:44]: Yeah. So, okay, so when you. Obviously, you mentioned your brother, who passes, unfortunately, and then, you know, you go to school for social work, and that is something that you do in 2012 when you come out and you start your practice, who are you looking to work with most of the time? 

Denise Rue [7:44 - 8:02]: Okay. So my first internship in graduate school was in hypnosis. I'm sorry. Was in hospice. And I love working in hospice, but in that transition, my father died and then my husband passed away. 

Mike Ham [8:02 - 8:03]: Oh, wow. 

Denise Rue [8:03 - 8:54]: So it was too much death, and I wasn't healed enough internally to work in hospice. And my second internship was working at a county mental health agency in Perth Amboy. And that was a highly traumatized population complex. Trauma, survivors of childhood, sexual abuse. And I really loved that population. And they hired me after my internship. That was the way the universe led me, and that was my love. That became my love. To work with people who had experienced severe trauma, childhood trauma, adult trauma, and working with them in individuals and groups. 

Mike Ham [8:54 - 9:25]: Yeah. Does it ever? And I know we're going to get into more of the stuff that you're working on now, but just kind of like hearing this story so far and, like, kind of the stuff happening in your own personal life and the things happening, you know, in the work that you're doing and the people that you're working with, does it ever get tough? Cause it's, like, a lot of seemingly heavy things to kind of help people through. And I feel like. I don't know, I have a lot of conversations with a lot of different types of people, and I wind up, like, taking on a lot of that stuff. Does that ever happen? Of course. 

Denise Rue [9:25 - 9:51]: Of course. You have to learn for survival as a therapist to hold your client's suffering with compassion, but not go down with the ship. Okay. So it's a constant navigation to keep your heart open, but also trust that, yeah, there's suffering, but there's also healing. 

Mike Ham [9:51 - 9:52]: Right. 

Denise Rue [9:52 - 9:56]: And that can keep you buoyant. 

Mike Ham [9:56 - 9:57]: Yeah, yeah. 

Denise Rue [9:57 - 10:01]: In the face of suffering. Yeah. You have to take care of yourself for sure. 

Mike Ham [10:01 - 10:29]: Yeah, there's. I mean, I. That that would be a slippery slope if you're adding, like, other people's stuff onto your. Your own stuff kind of going down that road. So, yeah, yeah, I was just curious about that because that is a lot. So. And you start working that with that. The adult trauma, childhood trauma, and then at what point in the story do we go to Jamaica? Where is that part of the story coming? 

Denise Rue [10:29 - 11:54]: Okay, so I had a friend whose son was at Johns Hopkins, and that's where they were doing the early research in psychedelics. So my friend's son was talking about, hey, do you know this research that's coming out? And so I started reading all the research that was coming out of Johns Hopkins, NYU, Imperial College in London, and just a light bulb went off. And I said, you know, this can alleviate a lot of suffering, but I had never experienced psychedelics myself. Good catholic girl. And, you know, I fell prey to all of the propaganda, the Nixon era drug laws, all of the hype that LSD was going to scramble my chromosomes and make me go mad. So it was just never in my life. So I said, well, before I get into this, go further into this, I'm going to have to experience my own psilocybin experience, because that was really the substance that kind of grabbed my heart. And so I booked a retreat to Jamaica in July of 2018. 

Mike Ham [11:54 - 12:15]: I went, yeah, and describe for people that, because we mentioned Bill, and I know Bill's done some retreats and stuff. I've never done one. I don't know if I would ever have the guts to ever try it. But describe for people what that experience is like just so they can kind of get an idea, I guess. 

Denise Rue [12:15 - 13:16]: Okay, well, coming to, making the commitment to go to a foreign country and be in a group, you're gonna be vulnerable. It's making a financial and a time commitment to your mental health. But I had led groups as a therapist, so the group process, I really loved. And so I went, and there were 15 guests, about four facilitators, and it just. I wasn't nervous. I'd done so much reading about psilocybin, the retreat. If it's a good retreat, it will create a container of safety where people are prepared. They know, reasonably, what to expect from whatever medicine they're using, be it psilocybin or ayahuasca. 

Mike Ham [13:18 - 13:19]: Are they the same or different? 

Denise Rue [13:19 - 13:25]: Oh, no, no. Different. Yeah. So I was working with psilocybin or magic mushrooms. 

Mike Ham [13:25 - 13:26]: Got it. 

Denise Rue [13:26 - 13:26]: Okay. 

Mike Ham [13:26 - 13:27]: Yep. 

Denise Rue [13:28 - 14:56]: So the group container establishes a sense of safety, and people learn about what they can expect. There's a preparation session where all the guests talk about what they're struggling with. Why are they here? What do they hope that this medicine will bring them? What healing are they seeking? And I had my intention, and my intention. I came in with my therapist hat on. Yeah. But I had my own work to do, for sure. And I really wanted. Of course, I was still grieving for these losses, and I wanted not to finish grieving, because you never finish grieving. But I wanted to begin embracing life wholeheartedly again. So that's what I asked for. I took three rams of psilocybin. It's an inward experience. Eye shades, music. And then the medicine just works its magic. And then the facilitators are there to provide any kind of comfort. Hand you a tissue, walk you to the bathroom, make sure you drink water, put a hand on your shoulder if you're having a rough time. And that one experience was really life changing for me. 

Mike Ham [14:56 - 15:01]: Yeah. Because I think you wound up staying. Right. Is that right? Or at least going back, however, that. 

Denise Rue [15:01 - 15:30]: So after that first experience, I. At the end of it, I turned to the retreat leader, and I said, I don't think I can go back to my job. I did go back to my job, but what I meant was, wow, this healing is available, and I'm sitting in a room with someone talking. Even though I wholeheartedly believe in therapy. This is paradox. 

Mike Ham [15:30 - 15:31]: Next level. Yeah, right. 

Denise Rue [15:31 - 15:48]: Next level. Right. And it catalyzes healing to an extent that no other modality in my experience, in my research, has been able to get people to this level. 

Mike Ham [15:48 - 16:17]: Yeah. And I think it's interesting, too, because it's almost like, it seems like I'm not gonna speak for you, but like, you're talking about kind of the, your hypnosis background and the therapy background and all these ways to kind of like, shake people up a little bit and kind of get them in touch with different parts of their psyche, you know, so to speak. And this is just kind of like a, it seems like a, you know, here it is. You know, try this, and you're gonna get there sort of thing. 

Denise Rue [16:17 - 17:26]: Yeah, here it is. It's, you know, when you're, when the veil is lifted, you're introduced to a lot of psychic material. So I don't usually recommend that people go in cold without ever having looked inward, but some people do, and it's fine. This substance is not suitable for every person. I like what Sam Harris says. Not everyone can afford to give the chain of sanity even the slightest tug. Okay, so psilocybin will temporarily destabilize you, if you will, transient derealization, depersonalization, but it's in that psychic instability, that shaking of the snow globe where the healing happens. But you have to have a certain degree of stability in order to tolerate those hours of instability. 

Mike Ham [17:26 - 18:01]: Yeah. And I know you did your research, reading a lot of research and all that kind of stuff. It's funny because, like, right now, like, I hear a lot about it on the radio because, you know, Aaron Rodgers, the quarterback of the jets, and he goes on ayahuasca retreats and darkness retreats and, like, all this kind of stuff. So it's. But it always is met with just like, ah, this guy's crazy. You know, like that kind of thing. And I know that there's still, like, a lot of stigma around it, you know what I mean? And did, when you went in, did you have any kind of like, hesitation or was just kind of like, we're going in like this is it? 

Denise Rue [18:01 - 19:03]: No, not at all, because I had done my research. So if you move from myth to research, you're on really solid ground. These substances aren't anything new. Indigenous people have been using them for millennia. In the fifties and sixties, they were used extensively in research and in therapy. I mean, Sandoz pharmaceuticals, Washington, mailing out LSD to researchers and private psychiatrists. People were using MDMA. People were using mescaline within the context of this therapeutic container, and they were seeing such amazing results, it got a little out of hand with Timothy Leary. And when people were not using these substances, with attention to the set. 

Mike Ham [19:03 - 19:03]: Right. 

Denise Rue [19:03 - 19:04]: And the setting. 

Mike Ham [19:04 - 19:19]: Yeah. And I guess that's kind of like where we lost the plot on the substances, because then it was like, ah, you know, they're. They're bad for you or whatever it is, and kind of, like, lost the initial intention of what these were intended for. 

Denise Rue [19:19 - 19:19]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [19:20 - 19:46]: You know, and then being able to kind of, like, almost. And that with the work that you're doing now, kind of, like, recapture that, so to speak, and then give people a chance to actually use it for what it's supposed to be used for. So take. I don't think we finished this part of the story, but take me through kind of like the end of your time in Jamaica, because you stayed down there. Right, or whatever it was, and worked down there. Is that correct? 

Denise Rue [19:46 - 20:10]: Yeah. So I was asked to come back as a therapist, and I moved there full time in July. No, in September of 2019. And I was there until December of 2022. So I worked as their therapist, ended up leading retreats, and I was their clinical director towards the end. 

Mike Ham [20:10 - 20:11]: Yeah. 

Denise Rue [20:11 - 20:11]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [20:11 - 20:14]: And what was the experience like on that side of it? 

Denise Rue [20:14 - 21:04]: Oh, the greatest work I've ever done. Really brilliant. I. Absolutely brilliant. So gratifying as a therapist to see people just coming through and having their breakthrough. Okay. And we're talking about people who had been highly psychiatrized. Okay. They'd been on every conceivable psychotropic medication. They'd had electroconvulsive therapy. They'd been in therapy for decades, but nothing had moved the needle. So we had people coming in saying, I've tried everything else. If this doesn't work, I'm killing myself. Okay. 

Mike Ham [21:04 - 21:05]: Yeah. 

Denise Rue [21:05 - 21:06]: That's a lot of pressure. 

Mike Ham [21:06 - 21:07]: Pressure, right. 

Denise Rue [21:07 - 22:13]: For sure. So you have a week long retreat, three doses of psilocybin, with three integration sessions and a preparation session before the administration of the psilocybin. Okay. And people had life transforming experiences. Is it a one and done thing? Not necessarily. Some people have one experience, and it's just life transforming for people with more in the grips of pretty significant mental health symptoms, like in treatment resistant depression, panic disorder, PTSD, OCD, a lot of trauma. They're going to need, usually continued therapy and maybe subsequent dosing, but it kicks up the game like nothing else. 

Mike Ham [22:13 - 22:38]: Yeah, that's really interesting. And so you said 2022, you come back to Jersey. You come back to Jersey with the intention of kind of essentially leading the charge for kind of getting things passed to make it legalized in that space that we were talking about earlier? Or was it kind of. You came back and continued your own practice and were like, you know what? We need this kind of thing. 

Denise Rue [22:38 - 22:43]: Okay. Well, it was time to leave Jamaica. That's a long time to be on an island. 

Mike Ham [22:43 - 22:44]: Sure. I would imagine. 

Denise Rue [22:44 - 23:37]: Yes. And as wonderful as it was, it was time to move on. And I had had a small private practice via Zoom when I was there, especially during COVID And so when I came back, I just beefed up my private practice. And then in April of 2023, because I was kind of sniffing out what's going on around here, because I'd been out of New Jersey for, you know, three, four years, and I knew that there was the psilocybin behavioral Health Access and Services act bill in the legislature, but I didn't know anybody else who was doing this work, so I literally just started a group on meetup and got a logo. And people came. 

Mike Ham [23:37 - 23:55]: Yeah. And what was that like for you to kind of, like, know that there's other people out there that are on board with this, and they're gonna, you know, kind of, like, fight the good fight to kind of make sure that people are aware of the positives of it and kind of break those stigmas that maybe exist in certain communities around the state. 

Denise Rue [23:55 - 24:30]: Yeah. Really gratifying to know that this was happening in New Jersey, and most of the therapists were working with ketamine, which is a schedule three drug, but it's legal. So when people talk about psychedelic assisted therapy, in most places, that means ketamine. Okay. But what I'm interested in is psilocybin and getting this state, residents of this state, to have access to the healing power of this medicine. 

Mike Ham [24:31 - 24:57]: And so I think it's also interesting, too, that you started group on meetup, and next thing you know, like, we're just talking off Mike, that you're testifying before, you know, the state congress and all that kind of stuff. And at what point did you kind of. You start the group, but then at what point does it kind of almost become. I don't know if activist group is the right word, is that I don't want to, like, push it into that realm. I guess it sort of is to a degree. 

Denise Rue [24:57 - 26:12]: That's one of our arms. So even before, as we were organizing and, you know, people who were interested, they decided, okay, this is. I'm interested in education. I'm interested in advocacy. So people on the board kind of took over like, this is my baby. Okay, so we have three arms. Advocacy, education, and support. Support for the therapists who are doing this work. So, with education, we've presented in services, a couple already at Rutgers, another one upcoming. And so we're doing in services to educate therapists and other mental health practitioners. And then the advocacy, well, we just fell into it naturally because that's what was happening with this bill. But we also provide webinars and integration circles, article discussions, book discussions. So we're providing. We're providing material for people who are interested in these substances. 

Mike Ham [26:12 - 26:16]: Yeah. And so mention the bill's name again. 

Denise Rue [26:16 - 26:23]: So it is the psilocybin behavioral Health Access and Services act. 

Mike Ham [26:24 - 26:24]: Okay. 

Denise Rue [26:24 - 26:25]: Okay. 

Mike Ham [26:25 - 26:41]: Well, for now, we will call it the bill that's otherwise known as the heretic. Yeah. Here, two, four of the bill. We'll make sure we write that out in the show notes so people that are listening could just go look at it and make sure that they remember it. But that's a lot of things for me to remember. 

Denise Rue [26:41 - 26:45]: But the number is in the Senate. It's 22 83. 

Mike Ham [26:45 - 26:51]: Okay, so when you start this, you come back to Jersey, you start this group, and you said the bill already existed. 

Denise Rue [26:51 - 26:51]: Right. 

Mike Ham [26:51 - 26:57]: How long had the bill existed? Kind of in transient sort of status. 

Denise Rue [26:57 - 28:28]: Yeah. So the president of the Senate, Nicholas Scotari, he introduced it in 2022, I believe. Okay. It just sat in committee. The Senate Health Human Services senior citizens Committee, didn't get any movement, but it was reintroduced in 2024. Okay. And it had some traction. Okay. So we just started educating, meeting with local. Our local representatives, and just giving them information about psilocybin itself, the research, and about psychedelic assisted therapy in general. So I think it's important to. Well, let me tell you what the bill proposes. Okay? So it would make available to adults in New Jersey who meet certain criteria and who get a referral from a provider like a physician or an APN or their psychiatrist or psychologist to get supported psilocybin services. Okay? So this does not mean legalizing psilocybin, and it does not mean I. There would be psilocybin dispensaries. Okay. It's not like cannabis. 

Mike Ham [28:28 - 28:28]: Yeah. 

Denise Rue [28:29 - 32:02]: So we need to separate that for sure. So if this bill were passed, it would establish regulation and licensing for psilocybin service centers. Okay. Where trained and licensed facilitators could work in three parts with a patient. Okay? So psychedelic assisted therapy has three aspects to it. The preparation session, the administration session, and the integration session. All right? So it's not just here, take a pill. Take a pill. We'll be back in 5 hours. That's not what it's about. This is a safe medicine. It is non addictive. It is non toxic. We know from ample studies what the therapeutic doses are. But it is a strong substance, and people will need to be educated, prepared, have to sign informed consent, and they may need support during the 5 hours that they're under the influence of the substance. Okay? So the facilitator, again, who will have to go through an extensive education program and be licensed, is not doing therapy per se because the experience is introspective. It's behind eye shades and. And you're listening to music. Okay? So what psilocybin does is it changes your perceptions. It may give you auditory and visual hallucinations. It quiets down that part of our brain that's always chattering and gives us this sense of who we are, which is kind of. It can be a false ego. So that ego may dissolve. Once that ego is dissolved, you may have the opportunity to have novel insights about your life, about your values. You may be able to access memories, to kind of put the pieces together about past trauma. You may be able to get a newfound sense of self compassion and compassion for others. You may have a mystical experience which can be transformative, but it can be challenging at times. So it's kind of a wave like I do. Compare it to the process of labor. You have a contraction. It's very painful, but it rises, it falls, and during that time, it's very helpful to breathe and to hold the hand of your midwife. Okay? So that's what the facilitator is doing. The facilitator is there to provide reassurance, a steady hand to hold, give you water, tell you you're doing okay. This is the medicine working. You're getting through this. Right? So that's the administration session. 

Mike Ham [32:02 - 32:03]: Yeah. 

Denise Rue [32:03 - 33:12]: Then in about a week or so, that client will have an integration session. Okay. So that's when the client can talk about the experiences that she had. Right? The novel insights, the emotional breakthroughs, the mystical experiences. How do you make sense of this? And then how do you operationalize that? How do you, how do you behavioralize that? So you can have, you can sort of water and nurture those seeds that the psychedelic has planted. Because that integration part is just as important as that medicine session. So highly regulated. Using the natural mushroom, the manufacturers or the farmers, they'll be licensed too. Every step of the way. It's going to be regulated. So it's very, very different than dispensaries. 

Mike Ham [33:12 - 36:03]: Right. We're going to take a short break because my main camera just turned off, but the other camera is still on. I just want to make sure that they're still running. So we'll do kind of like our outro intro thing here. So, greetings with RSA podcast powered by the New Jersey lottery. I'm Mike Cannon. We're here with Denise Ruh, the founder of the New Jersey Psychedelic Therapy association. We'll be right back. The Mayo Performing Arts center is the heart of arts and entertainment in Morristown, New Jersey. MPAC presents over 200 events annually and is home to an innovative children's arts education program. To see MPAC's upcoming schedule of world class concerts, stand up comedy, family shows, and more, head to mayoarts.org or just click the link in our show notes. Hey, folks, I want to tell you about the crew over at make cool shit. These are the magicians who recently gave our podcast a jaw dropping makeover. You know how we roll here at greetings with the Garden State podcast, right? We're all about that garden State attitude. Well, make cool shit shares that same vibe, and they've got something absolutely epic to offer. It's called the unlimited cool shit design subscription. It's a game changer, my friends. Imagine this. Unlimited creativity, one flat monthly fee, and none of that boring stuff. It's like having your very own army of design superheroes on speed dial. Whether you're a fresh, free startup or a seasoned business looking to shake things up, the team at Makeool shit has got your back. It's all about making your brand sizzle, no matter where you are in your journey. So if you're ready to turn your ideas into mind blowing realities, then it's time to connect with Makecool ship. Check them out on Instagram at Wemakecoolshit, or visit their website, wemakecoolshit Dot Co. Remember, that's co.com. all right, we're back. This is segment two of the green episode of this episode. Let me do that again. All right, we're back for the second segment of this episode of greetings from the Garden State, powered by the New Jersey Lottery. We're here with the founder of the New Jersey Psychedelic Therapy Association, Denise Roux. So we had a quick technical glitch there, which is why we took a break. Otherwise, we would have just kept rolling because this is really interesting and obviously clearing up a lot of misconceptions on psilocybin and the work that you're doing and the bill and also learning about your background and how you got into this. In the last answer before we took our break, you kind of explained what the bill is, what it would do for psilocybin and people that would work with it and patients that would use it. So it seems like, and we talked about how long the bill has kind of been a sitting there and now kind of being pushed along here through the work that you guys are doing. But talk to me also kind of about like, once the bill gets passed, it still seems like there's a road to hoe there still, you know, like, that's not going to be like, hey, it's passed and just start like handing it out like Skittles, you know, like there's, there's, there's more to it that has to happen. Like the infrastructure around it and, and all that that you're talking about. That's a big part of it as well. 

Denise Rue [36:03 - 36:52]: Right. So, yeah. And that's important for people to know because people are, people are suffering. People are experiencing a lot of mental health challenges and they're going to want access to this. Right. But, okay. So right now it moved out. It was voted on in the affirmative in the Senate Health and Human Services Committee. Now it's on to the assembly. I believe the hearing is going to be Monday the 20th on that. And then it will go to the appropriations committee and then it will be voted on. Okay. And then it will go to Governor Murphy's desk. Hopefully he will sign it. But it's not a done deal. 

Mike Ham [36:52 - 36:52]: Sure. 

Denise Rue [36:52 - 37:51]: It's not a done deal. Okay. If it is signed, then there is within the bill an 18 month kind of infrastructure building time. Okay. And that's when an 18 person advisory board would gather to establish all the regulations. So this would be regulation, regulations surrounding training of the facilitators, licensing, you know, there's a whole myriad of things to, to hammer out. Right. So it still will be, what, 2027 maybe before psilocybin service centers would be up and running. Right now they are up and running in Oregon, and Colorado will be up and running soon. 

Mike Ham [37:51 - 38:07]: Yeah. And is that something that, you know, you're kind of being like almost like a positive that they do exist, that this does exist in other states and be able to kind of like, look at it and be like, here's the things that work. Here's some things that are kind of iffy, and then this is what we're going to kind of fix on our end. And here in Jersey. 

Denise Rue [38:07 - 38:28]: Right. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. Exactly. We know what they're doing, which has not worked, and so we don't have to do that. And even Colorado made some interesting innovations and their advisory board has done that so we can keep building this boat, you know? 

Mike Ham [38:29 - 38:38]: Yeah. And so while in Congress, and you said. You told me off mic before that, you testified recently, right? Was that your first time? Multiple times? 

Denise Rue [38:38 - 38:41]: No, that was my first time before. 

Mike Ham [38:41 - 38:43]: What was that experience like? Is it scary? 

Denise Rue [38:44 - 38:45]: No, it was funny. 

Mike Ham [38:45 - 38:48]: I mean, as long as you're prepared and you believe in what you're talking about, I think that that's. 

Denise Rue [38:48 - 38:51]: Yeah. And I mean, my goodness. You have two minutes. 

Mike Ham [38:51 - 38:51]: Oh, okay. 

Denise Rue [38:51 - 42:27]: So you want to lose sleep over that? You have a written testimony, and then some of the senators ask questions. Listen, a lot of. There's a lot of myth misconceptions around psychedelic therapy, okay? And I think something that's important for people to understand is this is very different than an antidepressant, okay? This is a substance paired with therapy or paired with support. Okay? So that is important for people to understand. And I. And so I think it may have been hard for the senators to wrap their head around that. I mean, we're used to in our culture looking at our symptoms, if you will, as bad we want to wipe them out. Here, take this pill. But that hasn't worked very well, has it? No, it hasn't. So this is calling us to shift our paradigm of thinking, okay, if people are suffering from depression, anxiety, ptsd, to heal that, people have to accept that this is what is happening, and they have to meet it right now, meet it in a way that is loving and kind. And I know that sounds very all touchy feely, but psilocybin and other psychedelic substances does allow you to accept, confront the core of the issues and to feel empowered by doing so and to move through them and get to the other side. Right. That's like an initiatory process. It's a hurdle. And people feel very, very empowered. Okay? There's one research study by doctor Rosalind Watts and subjects who had gone through psilocybin study with treatment resistant depression noted that there are two factors that were really life changing for them. It allowed them to accept their. Their symptom, and it allowed them to connect with themselves, with their suffering, with the world. Okay? Because traditional mental health therapy often keeps symptoms at an arm's length. Okay, people come in, well, I have. I have social anxiety disorder. I have this, I have that. Well, you. But it's not all of who you are, right? It is a part. And it's not just going to be medicated away. We know now from how many decades of antidepressants. Sure, it's not alleviating a great deal of suffering. 

Mike Ham [42:28 - 42:31]: It's just like a temporary fix. It's a mandate. 

Denise Rue [42:31 - 42:57]: Yeah, absolutely. Save lives in some cases. But we're seeing that we have to go deeper. And we have this tool. This tool which has. Is not without its challenges. Absolutely. It's got to be used wisely with support, but it can alleviate suffering. We know that from the clinical studies. 

Mike Ham [42:57 - 43:30]: Right. And you mentioned before, kind of like almost breaking the misconception that it is an anti antidepressant. I know it's not. But breaking that myth, and you may have said that there are a lot of misconceptions around psilocybin. Is that the primary one, or is there other ones that maybe you're kind of having to educate and advocate for to make sure that people that are making decisions on this are aware of? 

Denise Rue [43:31 - 44:14]: Well, there's so many misconceptions. Right. If I take this, I'll go crazy. And there's the reasonable stigma of, well, I don't want to break the law. Right. These are schedule one substances. I'll be out of control. I won't come back from this. I'll be permanently damaged. And all of that is not worn out by the research. Yeah. People can have adverse experiences, but they're usually transient, and they usually will dissipate within 24 to 48 hours. 

Mike Ham [44:14 - 44:46]: Right. Yeah. So as we're kind of getting closer to the end of this and people are listening and they're like, you know, I want to learn more about this. What are some places you would recommend they go both on kind of like what's happening with the legislation right now and the bill, and also just kind of like educating themselves on what this is and how it works and so they could be better informed about all of it. 

Denise Rue [44:46 - 45:46]: Yeah. Well, there's loads of podcasts, loads of YouTube videos. You can always start with the Netflix special how to change your mind, or based on Michael Pollan's book, how to change your mind. There's a great movie called Dost, which is about a woman with terminal cancer who was allowed to use psilocybin in Canada with the right to try laws and how that transformed her experience of being terminally ill. If you just go to YouTube and Google psilocybin research and Roland Griffiths at Johns Hopkins, believe me, it's out there. Yeah, yeah. You can go to our website, which is New jerseypsychadelic therapyassociation.net comma njpta.net dot. We aren't the New Jersey PTA. 

Mike Ham [45:48 - 45:49]: Very different? 

Denise Rue [45:49 - 46:35]: Yeah. Yeah. And so we have some resources. We have letters, templates for people. If they want to write their representative in support of psilocybin services, I'm happy to answer any questions. Questions. We have webinars, and our organization is not just for therapists. It's for anybody who's interested in how psychedelic medicines can and help heal people who are suffering. Advocate for human flourishing. So there's so much really good information that people can get. 

Mike Ham [46:35 - 47:02]: Yeah. Well, this has been great, and I really appreciate, appreciate you having me and sharing your story and all the work that you're doing. If there's something that you want to leave people with, kind of like a final thought on all of the stuff that we talked about today, or even something that we didn't talk about that you want to make sure that we do touch on, what would you want the average New Jerseyan who listens to this show? What would you want them to know? 

Denise Rue [47:05 - 48:19]: Our inner life is just as important as what we're doing externally, okay? We're very much focused in our culture on material things and producing and what are our degrees and what kind of car do we drive. But you can't ignore your inner life forever, okay? This doesn't mean we feel sorry for ourselves. This doesn't mean we're having a pity party. But sometimes it's hard to just exist in this world. We have a lot of stressors that's been made even more apparent since COVID So tend to your inner life. You don't have to do it with psilocybin. You can do it through traditional therapy. You can do it through meditation, do it through walking in nature, reading poetry, doing things that nourish you, because it will catch up eventually. Right through mental health symptoms or physical symptoms. The body keeps the score. So tend to yourself. You're worth it. 

Mike Ham [48:19 - 48:34]: Yeah. Awesome. Amazing. Again, thank you so much. We'll make sure that we put all the links in the show notes, and people can check it out, learn more, and write their congressman if they feel compelled to after this. But again, yeah, I appreciate you chatting with us today. 

Denise Rue [48:34 - 48:36]: Yeah, so much fun, Mike. Thank you. 

Mike Ham [48:36 - 48:55]: Absolutely. I had a lot of fun. So again, this has been the greetings from the gardens, a podcast powered by the New Jersey Lottery. We were here with Denise Rue, the founder of the New Jersey Psychedelic Therapy association. I'm Mike Hamm. One will also put greetings on the garterstate.com so you can get all of our other episodes in there. Thank you for listening, and we will catch you next time. 

Denise Rue [48:55 - 49:11]: Do you wanna ride? Do it, baby. Do you wanna ride? Oh, tell me before you go on the way, do you? Alright.