Web3 CMO Stories

Navigating the Web3 Marketing Maze with Diana Felkina, CMO at Tectum | S5 E06

• Joeri Billast & Diana Felkina • Season 5

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Ready to transform your approach to Web3 marketing? This episode is packed with insights from Diana Felkina, CMO at Tectum, who shares her journey from the traditional marketing space into the adventurous realm of blockchain.

Discover insights on how to strategically navigate marketing in the Web3 space. We explore budget allocation, community building, and the importance of genuine utility over token hype.

• Discussion on why understanding the macroeconomic environment is crucial
• Importance of creating and finalizing technology for real-world application
• Adaptive marketing strategies in times of uncertainty
• Shift from a focus on token prices to tangible product utility
• Building authentic and engaged Web3 communities
• Effective use of AI tools for optimizing marketing efforts

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review to support the show!

This episode was recorded through a Descript call on February 13, 2025. Read the blog article and show notes here: https://webdrie.net/navigating-the-web3-marketing-maze-with-diana-felkina-cmo-at-tectum/

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Diana:

The best strategy that you can do for yourself, for your community, for anybody who has ever believed in your project, is actually make sure you go. Finalize the technology. Create a strong business strategy of how to implement and use the technology in the real world and make it happen.

Joeri:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Web3 CMO Stories podcast. My name is Joeri Billast and I'm your podcast host, and today I'm really honored and excited to be joined by Diana. Hey Diana, how are you?

Diana:

Hello Joeri. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Joeri:

Great to have you on the show, Diana Guys. If you don't know, Diana, Diana Felkina is a marketing powerhouse expertly managing a $2.5 million annual budget to drive transformative growth for innovative brands, with a sharp focus on leveraging cutting-edge tools and strategies, she's at the forefront of modern digital marketing. Passionate about education and empowerment, Diana is on a mission to teach businesses how to thrive online in today's evolving digital landscape, helping them unlock new opportunities and redefine success in the modern age. And so what's really interesting for this podcast, Diana, is that your journey in marketing spans a decade, with half of it focused on blockchain, so I'm curious, then what was now the pivotal moment that made you shift towards Web3 marketing?

Diana:

Yeah, of course, initially, thank you for this powerful introduction. I feel very honored. I think my journey towards the Web3 space was very similar to most of our journeys. It was initially, I know, created by the interest in the technology and blockchain and Bitcoin, and went down the rabbit hole of what the possibility of this technology, the possibility of the era of private money, definitely was interesting. And I started maybe seven years ago and I started mining.

Diana:

So, apart from my marketing career, I have a, like a mining business. It's actually one of the biggest mining farms in middle east. So, and, of course, as I accumulate knowledge in the industry aside, uh, my marketing expertise at some point in time it felt that was just natural for me to move into that direction. You know, because this industry has a bit of a learning curve and when you understand it better, it becomes very natural and just it happened just back in time was, I think, and then almost five, six years ago, when a place where I live, lebanon, was hit by one of the biggest financial crisis ever and you know, our, our local currency, lost around 89% of its value, with inflation at 200%, and you know, just, the local economy collapsed and your only escape was basically find something remote, international and global. And Web3 was, just, you know, my savior. It was a perfect, it was just you know, I didn't think twice, just moved directly into this industry and I'm very glad I did.

Joeri:

Wow, yeah, if you tell me that, that you know 98%, that's incredible. And then now you are managing $2.5 million of marketing budget, it seems that's, wow, enormous. So, but yeah, managing such a big budget, Diana, that requires strategic decisions, right? So, yeah, what are maybe the biggest mistakes that Web3 projects make when allocating their budgets?

Diana:

Well, essentially, when big budgets are, you know, discussed, you cannot only look at the marketing budget without the, you know, considering the macroeconomic environment that you're in before spending this money. So this is one of the main things we look at we have to understand that this is right to spend those budgets in this time. So right now, just like the right now, is the perfect situation, I think, with the markets going a bit cranky, a lot of marketeers are sitting there and trying to make decisions of what to spend or not to spend. This is a dilemma, basically, which I call it to spend or not to spend, and how to achieve results when the markets are going a bit of a downtrend. You know, you cannot think of a marketing budget if you're unable to also comprehend the macroeconomic environment, the effect of Trump's tariffs on the macroeconomic markets and the downtrend in the stock market and the crypto market. This cannot be left, you know, unconsidered. So we sit down, we'll analyze their environment and we try to understand. Is that, if I'm actually putting down, you know, because right now we were performing at a I'd say at a level and then right now I was just sitting just back back in the past weeks, I was thinking okay, do I increase my budget or actually decrease it? If I increase my budget, are there actually people out there in the markets right now, with the current downtrend situation, they are, are willing to spend or everybody's actually at a loss. Right now, people in the stock market I actually traders in the stock markets positions are becoming you know, their margin calls are coming in. They're moving liquidity from more riskier assets which, in the crypto, backing up their positions over there and just in general information, when there's a downtrend, people become more risk averse and unless there's less buyers in the more riskier speculative markets, so you're thinking, okay, so if I go actually increase my budget, spend, will it actually lead to the results that I need? And I think the answer right now is not. So it's very crucial to understand if it's the right time to spend or not before you decide how much you want to spend. Maybe actually right now, the decision that many companies are taking is actually to take a bit of a pause in terms of marketing expenses. Wait for a better time, when the markets are more ready, when people have more money on hand to spend, and that would be the right time to activate.

Diana:

So when you're looking at marketing budget, timing is of crucial essence. It's the most important thing you should consider to understand. You know better, expect the ROI, right? You cannot expect to spend a big budget in a downtrending market and expect a high ROI. It's just impossible, right? And the problem is not only just to increase, you know, interest in the product or the token price or so on, it's also to maintain. So there's two factors over here. It's easy, maybe, to raise interest, but can we be able to maintain it when so much people are at a loss and they will just use it as an opportunity just to cash out and make sure to kind of balance out their portfolios. So I think this is one of the most important things to consider when you're looking at whatever budget, no matter how big it is. You know, is it the right time to spend? Is the question that should be asked.

Joeri:

Yeah, right time and plan the budget, of course, because what you cannot do is just stop spending. You know your marketing or working on your marketing, Because I've seen that too, that because of a downtrend, or maybe people are pessimistic about the market, that they don't do marketing at all, and then you know when the market lives up again, then nobody knows about their existence.

Diana:

Yeah, definitely you cannot just kill it right. What you do, a strategy you take, is what we call like adaptive marketing. You do what is right to be done in this amount of time Very performance-based marketing, no excessive campaigns that you know, just not so much push with scale that are extremely expensive right now in the market in the United States, because no matter how much they promote right, people are just not I'm not eager to buy. But of course you just cannot kill the company. You have to keep on running, but you have to do it wisely, to make sure that you know you secure the budgets for the right times.

Joeri:

Absolutely. And something else interesting these days, because I'm also a fractional CMO for Web3 companies, AI companies and then when I have a conversation with the founder about their project, first thing or the thing they have on their mind is their token price. That's why doesn't my token price go up? Why is this? Why is that so? They are? Many projects are really driven by the token price as their main KPI. Yeah, I'm curious to hear your thoughts about that and also, yeah, what is the right strategy for projects to so far?

Diana:

It is very unfortunate, I would say, that so many projects, as most of the projects in the Web3 space, are driven by or dependent on the token price. I would say because there is a huge, a lot of projects are still in the hype rather than development stage, rather than the stage of actually they have the real technology. About the adoption rate of crypto users Only 6% of the world's users 6% use cryptocurrencies or crypto assets or so on, so the adoption rate of this whole technology has been very slow. 16 years after the release of the white paper, we're still figuring out how to drive adoption. And so all of the projects in the space, even the project I work with we've been building a technology rigorously for over a very long amount of years, but at some point, you know, it's almost so close to actually being finalized and implemented in the market, but it's still not, and I think it's very similar to many projects in the space. They're still building. You know, the Web3 space is very strongly driven on the hype narrative that we are doing this and that and that and that, but I think right now, with the market, because the market is maturing and people are kind of tired of this hype they're. They are what I call they. They have like this bear market fatigue. You know I'm tired of constantly hyping, not seeing results, and you know what everybody would say is that the only project that's going to survive this market, the cycle, are the ones who actually will create real products, be used by real people and create another streams of incomes for companies. But because only the reliance on a token, it just creates a speculation right if you don't have a product that is actually needed and used by people. So this is, you know, this is I call it the adoption gap, basically, which a lot of companies have. And the best thing, the best strategy that you can do for yourself, for your community, for anybody who has ever believed in your project, is actually make sure you go, finalize the technology, find a strong business strategy of how to implement and use the technology in the real world and make it happen. This and use the technology in the real world and make it happen, this is the best thing you can do for yourself.

Diana:

The hype narrative, the hype marketing, does not buy it anymore. Nobody's interested in that, you know. And because you know the industry is maturing and I think it's a very natural way of the way of maturing of the industry. I don't. You know there's a lot of talk about this four-year cycle being dead and now that we're about to witness something different, because of institutional investors being more involved, just because of the maturity of the market, that I don't think this pump and dump which happens on the four-year mar cycles is relevant anymore. So much people lost so much money. Nobody's going to be taking their risks anymore really, and and even from market use perspective, we're not.

Diana:

We cannot expect that now the altcoin season is coming and we're all going to pump and there's nothing that we should be doing in terms of really working on the technology and making it useful, right? No, but that's not the case. I don't believe that anymore. The best thing you could do finalize that tech, make sure it works, make sure people actually need it, and that actually, you know will be your survival strategy. Yeah, I mean it's nothing but survival over here. Your survival strategy. Yeah, I mean, it's nothing but survival over here. So, but yeah, but because people have tokens and the projects are stuck in this you know waiting cycle of where they're still building on this incredible check, they tend to be very dependent on the token price and now the markets are not helping and I feel.

Joeri:

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this hype narrative, like you know, and then the token price, but I see more and more also in the conversation I have on the podcast. It's about utility, it's about what can you? Actually do with a tool or with a product or with a service. Now, web marketing is often or a whole lot. People talk a lot about community rather than just ads. So what is, in your opinion, the most effective way to build and retain an engaged Web3 audience?

Diana:

I think this question relates as strongly to what we just discussed. You know, right, even the communities in Web3, they've kind of got used to those cycles of okay, you know that altcoin season comes, everything pumps to make a good buck and we get out. A big amount of communities is not interested in the product, they're just interested in making a fast, fast amount of money and this is the reality. You know, that's what you see. All the questions I see on coming up from my community is when binance. You know, even even when the stats actually say that Binance has been actually the worst exchange. You can list on with statistics of the past exchanges listing on Binance going down 50 to 60% within the first two to three months. So my point is that communities are great.

Diana:

I believe that communities, initially their idea was to come and really support your vision and your idea and they actually put the real money into the future that you're building and they believed in you. They're just like you're starting investors, right, and the only thing you can do to be kind to them and fair to them is actually develop that project product once again and make it useful and this is what will actually create continuous growth of this business that they've invested in, but that, once again, that hype narrative and that pump and what they're expecting, it won't happen. Maybe it will, of course money will flow, but even the communities themselves should be changing the narrative, how they look at those projects and what they expect out of them, because this is what will make the industry mature. This is the only way for us, the industry, to mature. So I mean so, yeah, a real utility once again, back to your point is what makes communities happy and but you know, nice thing about community is that ideally those people should be your early adopters.

Diana:

So I mean, it's, and I'm not seeing that just yeah, just because people are still stuck in the gap, adoption gap, right, because they don't have the product just ready. But ideally a community should be the first batch of people who actually start using your technology and will help you bring it to mass adoption. So the whole idea of community being involved is wonderful, but unfortunately, sometimes maybe it takes a bit of time for the products to come to the market. People get exhausted, markets don't help and a lot of thought turns out in those communities. It's even funny that even one of the biggest projects the top 10s or 15s have FUD in their community right now because their token price is not performing as they would like. You know people are not happy in the Web3 space in general.

Joeri:

Yeah, that's also a good discussion, of course, and you know, building a product takes time, building a good community takes time. You personally have grown audiences of more than 150,000 people in Web3. So then there is a discussion of quality versus quantity. That debate, of course, that comes when we are discussing social media growth.

Diana:

So I'm also curious to hear your, your take on that yeah, I mean, um, in this, just over all the social networks here. When you try to grow a community, you want it to be organic. Of course, right, there's a lot of marketeers who like to pump the numbers because it makes them good, look good in front of their management, and pump them with bots and so on. I mean those services. It's crazy how everything is bot-ed, right, but the reality is that I mean, maybe it's nice to have a big number, that you have a big million followers on your Twitter, but the reality is is when you come to the real point of where the community is tested, it's like when your product is released, you don't have a million people interested in your tech, because most of those are bots. So what did you build this community for? It don't help you to achieve your end goal, which is, once again, as we said, creating the utility for the product, really making it useful and spreading it.

Diana:

So, when I approach community growth and of course, we always test different tools to help us bring more eyeballs to our socials and our products and the most thing we're cautious of is just like are those people authentic? You know, are those people out there? Is it not butted Because it's so easy to see. You know it's so easy to see from by anybody. If you have a million followers but your engagement rate is 20 interactions per post on average, it looks very butted actually, so it doesn't even there's no even branding edge. You know, getting followers there's nothing good about it. So we're always very cautious that whenever we drive new, more, more eyeballs, also authentic followers.

Diana:

Some great companies right now that I work with is ilabs. Actually, ilabs is like the google ads of web3. They're great in terms of bringing more awareness and more eyeballs to projects and they help us grow on our socials. But yeah, authenticity of those users is our main priority because we understand what the community is for. The community is going to help us spread the product and if those are just spotted accounts, it doesn't help do anything.

Joeri:

Absolutely and unfortunately. I see this a lot because we recognize, of course, those bots and they are not really engaging On the other side. What I also see is because I'm active a lot on LinkedIn, but you see more and more these fake comments or maybe not fake comments, but AI generated comments which are like not really the people are engaging, but they're not engaging in the right way. So AI can be really useful, also for this podcast. I'm using it to edit and so on. It can also be used for automation in marketing. You can do so much things with AI. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on AI for marketing. How do you use it? Any thoughts on what is good and what's not good about it?

Diana:

Yeah, I'm very constantly me and my team are constantly, you know searching for new AI tools. I mean, even my personal brand right now is very focused on revealing those tools and then, whenever I test them, this is mostly what I do in terms of building my personal brand and just share stories of any powerful AI tools that I find. And the reason why I do it because we understand that marketing without AI it will make you obsolete as a marketeer and as a company. You just market using AI in your marketing and everything else. Basically, it doesn't even put you ahead of the competition. It makes you help you survive. This is what it will help you do. It makes things extremely faster, better and more efficient. So, let's say, one of the, we're constantly experimenting AIs for different use cases in marketing.

Diana:

But one of the main things we're doing now is that you know, especially in web three, you have a. You have a global audience, right, you have an audience and the main language is always English. The main content language is always English. An audience and the main language is always English. The main content language is always English, and there's a huge amount of chunk of the world who does not know English, and you know, back in the days it was very difficult to create those different translations and it's become easier now. But now it just becomes. You know, we upload one English video and AI creates variations of this video in many languages, with an AI persona right, which makes it look as if it's a real human explaining the use case of the tech, and in one click I'm able just to target 20 different markets in different languages. It takes me I don't know 30, 10, 15 minutes to create those videos and it costs me subscription of the service per month.

Diana:

You know it's just insane how much more content I'm able to generate through the power of ai and you know, just to be able to tackle those global markets, because, I mean, the there's really what I see in a lot of projects is that a lot of focus is on english-speaking markets but, uh, many projects actually not listed, let's say, in the us exchanges.

Diana:

So all my content, which I'm pushing out many times, are focused on the UK audience, but they're actually not listed there in terms of where the token can be purchased, for example, and this happens with every project. People don't usually ask, let's say, the KOL or YouTuber or whoever they work with, where is most of your audience, where are they geographically located? And then they push all this content with them and then they start to think, okay, why is nobody buying? Because people in China, who actually can buy your token, don't understand what you're saying. So, yeah, I think this is a nice thing we're experimenting with right now, and definitely there's a great lot of things that AI can do for us. We are yet to see.

Joeri:

Yeah, and also, you know, replace tasks that you would normally don't give to your team members. So you I don't know how big is your team at TechTum at this moment.

Diana:

The whole TechTum team is we're around 100 employees. The marketing department we're around 15 to 20, with you know freelancers helping here and there with moderators. So we're around 15 to 20, with you know freelancers helping here and there with moderators.

Joeri:

So, yeah, and you're a bit all around the world, or are they looking?

Diana:

That's all around the world.

Joeri:

Yeah, is that it's okay these days in Web3, you know we have all these different time zones. Are there any challenges that you have then, because if you're leading a team that is decentralized, and maybe some advice or tips how to overcome them?

Diana:

Actually, no, actually I don't feel like there's a lot of difficulty in managing Web3 teams because of the web3 nature. People really understand that because it's such a decentralized environment. First, you know the the freedom you have here and the company gives you. It's incredible. You cannot get it like in a local job. You want to do nine to five, but this is a great advantage. People understand that. They also understand that they really there is no like legally liable contracts between you and the company, which is just spread around the world, and if your work is not good you can be easily replaced because it's a very competitive industry. So people do realize all of those things and they it makes them more responsible and so from the very start, all of my team is, you know, just holds their own responsibility.

Diana:

I don't do micromanagement. Everybody knows what he should do, he or she should do, and it's very funny how back in the days when they used to put us in an office from nine to five just to control that we're working, and I remember that most of my time in the office was I just like wasting time making coffee in the kitchen, you know, wasting that time for it to pass, and really not. You know not, and really not. You know not dedicating myself to work, but here I actually work around the clock. I work in the morning and the night, you know, just because you really enjoy what you're doing, just because you're in the part of something very new and innovative, and just because everybody's really taking responsibility for what they're doing and doing the right job, uh, you know, to move this company forward. So, uh, actually I feel it's much more easier to work in a Web3 space and manage Web3 teams, because people understand this opportunity and they want to be part of it and they just do their best.

Joeri:

Yeah, indeed, it depends if you find the right people in your team to do that, and everyone is more like an entrepreneur or they are doing their tasks and they are not limited to location or time. I think that's a real advantage if you can, of course, find the right people. But the market is very competitive also these days because everyone around the world you know can be, I would say, trying to have a post or a position in your team. Let's talk about conferences and events, because there are so many now. Sometimes you need to make an admitted choice. There are so many now.

Diana:

Sometimes you need to make an admitted choice From your perspective, how are you selecting the right conferences or the right events to go to or maybe to sponsor with your company and to get the most out of them? Yeah, I mean, a conference is a tricky one because they cost a lot in reality. Right, you might go to a call place. It's gonna be average 50k for you, for the booth, for the team, for the hotels and so on. So it's a big chunk of a budget and, unfortunately, the roi from conferences is never clear, right, and the people don't know what to do and how to calculate it. This is the reality. Some people go unprepared and they spend 50k and all they come back with is pictures. Some others figure out a way of how to what you know when you go to an event if you want to maximize and do the best out of it. This is what we do. We really figure out when we go to event. We have something to sell. We know what we're doing there. We have a real product they're going to sell, real solution, whatever that is, there's a clear pitch of what we're doing and the real goal of what we're doing. A clear goal in terms of actually we're going there to figure out business partners or to sell the product, whatever. That is right.

Diana:

I have my trained team of business development or salespeople on the ground only them, why? And marketeer and the founder. Nobody else should be there. You know, people doing the right thing. Everybody knows what they're coming there to do, not chilling at the stand, you know. And the marketeer on the stand. He has a campaign to bring more users in. Download the apps, drive more social. There's something happening on the stand drive conversions, the BD and the sales team. I'm working around making those leads.

Diana:

The founder is just there to support any interesting conversations. We always try to secure a speaking slot for the founder because it's a great brand main of founder marketing and actually positions the founder in a nice way of opening room for others to approach him, because if he's just walking around the hall, nobody knows who this person is, whereas at the stand he makes a nice presentation, people tend to approach him more right. This is how he usually meets people because, oh, they relate back to him. I'm still on the stage Interesting thing that you mentioned. So it opens room for conversations. Plus, it puts them in the VIP areas, basically the VIP hangout, and this is where some of those interesting conversations can start with other founders, interesting conversations can start with other founders, but at the end, whatever you do I mean even from the PR end you have to make sure that when you're going to a conference ahead of time, you book times with all of the PR agencies or a publisher which are usually on the event, and you maximize your PR coverage from that.

Diana:

So you can basically do all that and still come back from an event with nothing really tangible, just leads. So that's when you engage the sales and the BD team to follow up and make the calls and make discussions that need to be made, and only after a month or three months time you can sit down and figure out okay, how much leads did we get, how much deals did we close, how much deals did we close, how much sales did we generate. And this is only when some type of ROI in terms of a number can actually come out and you can compare it to the cost you put down to this event. This is, I mean, from my perspective, the only possible thing to do which would make sense. So, yeah, you should be cautious about events because they're expensive. You should be going there when you're ready to present something, when you have something to sell, not just to chill. It's not branding, it's your Binance does it for branding. When you're a growing company, you should do it for something focused. You know you have to have a clear call to action. You know Binance Just chilling there, right. So companies just should be cautious. They should select events wisely, depending on what type of business you have.

Diana:

They go into more fintech events and less into the blockchain crypto events, which have not become very interesting for the past years, unless the big ones like Token249, for example, were one of the biggest or consensus. Everything else just kind of lost. It's not very beneficial. You have teenagers working around right, talking about new coins or some game, whereas if you're more into the payment section, you shouldn't be going to like our company text room. You know it's more into the pay-fi narrative, so we go more into the finance. You know it's more into the payfile narrative, so we go more into the finance. You know banking related events and this is where actually you'll find much more useful to position ourselves and showcase our products over there. So it really depends on what you do. But events should be. You know you should approach events with some thought and to make sure that the money you're going to be spending there, you'll be able to showcase the benefit out of them not directly, but maybe after a period of time at least.

Joeri:

Absolutely. I love how you broke everything down. It's not about the event itself, it's also about the whole preparation, about the selection you know, being prepared for the event, everything you do beforehand and the follow up afterwards. I see many companies that just said, OK, we need to be at that event having a booth. But then they are there and nothing is happening or they are just standing there.

Diana:

Shopping, okay, yeah, yeah.

Joeri:

You know, I've been at so many events. You see that or they are there and they're not getting anything out of it not even content, not even leads or because they just said we are here and now that's the goal is not to be at the event. The goal is you know everything around it. So that were very great tips, Diana. But if there was like one piece of advice that you would give to a Web3 startup now looking to scale its marketing today, what would it be?

Diana:

As a startup. I mean sure for all the. I mean, if you're a startup company, it makes sense that you're starting in some new narrative which is rising up in the AI agents or that may not dip in I don't know something of the trending narratives. It cannot be just a dead narrative. So make sure you fit into something or you catch a wave of a new narrative. For example, just like I give an example of, payfi is one of the rising narratives right now with a hundred X potential. That's how it's marketed. It's actually the middle ground between a trade fi and decentralized finance and it's just the emerging narrative.

Diana:

But we, let's say our company, techtum, has been around for six years actually riding the wave of this new narrative. So you should be following some narrative, because narrative is what people look into and what brings attention to you. So make sure you fit into something that will help you bring attention so you don't have to spend a lot on the marketing. So you ride a wave and make sure to stay up to date with all the. You know AI tools because because tools, because this is the only way you can succeed in all of your marketing, and make sure you consider the market conditions as well, especially if you're a startup.

Diana:

Sometimes it's not right to spend if you don't have the budgets, and maybe it's just maybe the right time to make sure you have a product which has a short time frame to the market. Right, please don't go to the product that needs five years to be developed in the market. In a sense, it's saying please make sure you're able to test your product fast and effectively so that you don't get basically stuck in all of those places that many companies are stuck in right now. You know, in constant delivery mode. Right, to make sure you're able to succeed faster and you know, and just survive.

Joeri:

Totally agree, Diana. And, yeah, thank you for sharing all this value, all these golden nuggets on this podcast episode, and the time really flew talking to you and I guess we could talk for ages, but I think at this moment, I think it's a good way to end this podcast episode with so much value. But, of course, before we leave, if people want to connect with you, Diana, or where can they find you, where would you like me to send them?

Diana:

I'm available on LinkedIn on Twitter, Diana Felkina, just by my name. I'm mostly active on LinkedIn. This is where I've mostly posted my content, and so I'm out there, available to chat and happy to chat with anyone and guide them on how they can grow their personal businesses or help the company they're working with, so reach out anytime.

Joeri:

Amazing. So, Diana, thank you so much. It was really a pleasure to have you on the show.

Diana:

Thank you, Joeri. It was a pleasure speaking to you.

Joeri:

Guys, what an amazing episode. A lot of value bombs. I'm sure this is useful for a lot of people around you, so be sure to share this episode with them. If you are not yet following the show, this is a really good moment to do this. To hit the subscribe button if you haven't already. If you haven't given me a review yet, please do that, because if you give me these five stars, I will reach an even bigger audience and, of course, I would like to see you back next time. Take care.

Diana:

Bye-bye.

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