Literacy Talks

Comprehension: It’s the Heart of the Matter

• Reading Horizons • Season 5 • Episode 10

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As we work to improve how we teach phonics, phonemic awareness, and word recognition while adding in writing instruction and content knowledge, we’re all working toward a key goal. It’s reading comprehension.

In this episode of Literacy Talks, we turn our attention to comprehension and the tapestry of skills that come together for readers and learners of all ages as they read for meaning, knowledge, and the sheer joy of learning and discovery.

This episode delivers best practices for building knowledge and will give you a new understanding of—that’s right—understanding what we read!

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Narrator:

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere, brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies that will help all learners retreating proficiency. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. In this episode, our trio of literacy experts tackles the topic of comprehension. From what recent national testing data shows to how we can think differently about boosting students comprehension abilities, you'll hear new insights about the tapestry of skills that are part of reading for knowledge and understanding. You'll also learn more about the critical connections between knowledge and comprehension. This episode is chock full of valuable resources, and easy to implement instructional strategies, all focused on building students' comprehension skills. Let's get started.

Stacy Hurst:

Welcome to another episode of Literacy Talks. I'm Stacy Hurst. And I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny. And today we have a great topic. I'm so excited to dive into this. And if you've been listening to our podcast for a while, you know, we take turns deciding which topic we're going to discuss and this week was done else turn, Donell will just turn the time right over to you and get us into our conversation. Great.

Donell Pons:

So this is going to be fun, I think. And you'll definitely want to download the document that we're going to be referring to, and it is by Dr. Hugh Catts. And it is from the American educator. And it was published winter 2021 to 2022. And it's very well worth having a read. The title of it is rethinking how to promote reading comprehension. I think that's enough information to be able to Google will also put a link in the show notes for you. But it definitely is worth a good read and follow along with the podcast, but also to read ahead of time with the great and then I just want to quickly do a if we take any shots from this one. Sometimes they grab some screenshots to promote it. And I'm going to look terrifying, everybody. So I just want to say I had a bike accident. That's what's happened to my face. And I got my arm in a sling. So I'm here. I'm present doing my best. And comprehension is definitely something that's been on my mind since that happened. So just to let you know. Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:

we are relieved that you are okay Donell because Stacy and I were so worried. And you know, we mentioned last week because she had a concussion. When we met last week, we made sure to ask the critical questions like Does the name Stanislaus Dehane mean anything to you? What is a phoneme? What was one of yours Stacy really kind of

Stacy Hurst:

a year was the National Reading Panel Report published.

Lindsay Kemeny:

We quizzed her all the all the things. And guess what she's she's doing great.

Stacy Hurst:

We went back decades. So we are glad you're here. Danelle.

Donell Pons:

Thank you. So all of that to say, this was an article that we've been thinking about for a while. And Dr. Catts was also at the Big Sky reading conference. And so it did get me thinking he had some some things that he said there at the conference that were interesting. And so I did a quick Google search. And this came up and I found found it equally interesting to all the other things he was saying at the conference. So he does a lot of really good work. But let's dive in here at the beginning. And, and he does a really good job of diving in and kind of telling you where he's at and why he's thinking the things that he's thinking. I think that's very helpful. And I love being inside the mind of a researcher, don't you think he did a really good job of that of helping you be inside the mind of a researcher. The date he gives us here that getting us as he says it's February 2015, and he's sitting in a national conference, listening to a panel, present the results of their research on improving reading comprehension. So that gives you an idea of where he's at. Several members of the panel, like myself and a few others in the room are funded by the Institute of Education Sciences as part of the reading for understanding initiative, this $120 million program. Wow, that number for the ticket was like big for me, supported six interconnected research teams in their efforts to improve reading achievement in the United States. So it's not like we're not spending any money on reading. In the United States. We definitely are right. And then he said over the last 20 years only about a third of students who have scored the proficient level on the reading set As to the National Assessment of Educational Progress, so all this money being spent, and we have over the last 20 years only about a third of students that have scored the proficient level on one of our national reading assessments. The assessment, he says tells you how often to fourth and eighth grade students, and every four years to 12th graders from across the nation. And somewhat better, though still troubling levels of performance have also been reported on state based reading tests administered annually starting in third grade. So in other words, he sets the stage for the fact that we do have a reading problem, all this money being spent, and we still have a lot of students who aren't proficient in reading. And then he says something interesting, the reported studies found he's saying that the preliminary results of some panel presented fell short of the expectations while he's sitting in this conference and panel presentations fell short of things that were expected or anticipated. The reported studies found that students receiving a variety of comprehension interventions made gains compared with control groups on assessments closely tied to the interventions. But they showed limited or no significant gains on standardized measures of reading comprehension. Needless to say, conference, attendees were surprised and discouraged by these results. So so far, what are you guys thinking about this scene that he has set for us?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Oh, no surprises? It's kind of disappointing. Yeah, I

Stacy Hurst:

think it gives, like you said, Donell a window into how he was viewing that information. And just to the point that you've read to so far, that's what I was thinking. But after reading the whole article, it really made me think more critically about the NAEP scores. I think data is data. And it's clear, we have an issue. I'm not saying that's not the problem. But I won't spoil it. But it really does make me rethink the way we look at those scores. Yeah,

Donell Pons:

he, he doesn't really good job of setting the stage for us to then take a deep think about how we view these various pieces of a competent rater, right, really excellent work that he does here. So he says that he's sitting in the back of the room when they present this and people are not happy about the results. Sitting at the back of the room, I clearly remember not being particularly alarmed by what the panel reported. As part of my work on the reading for understanding initiative and earlier related projects. I had spent many hours thinking, studying and talking with teachers and colleagues about reading comprehension. Through these efforts, I had come to recognize that the fields general approach to reading comprehension was short sighted, we were treating reading comprehension as if it were a single construct that could be measured with one or more general reading tests, and improved with a short term intervention. At a deeper conceptual level, most researchers, including those funded by the reading for understanding initiative, recognize that reading comprehension was multi-dimensional. But it had been common practice in education and research for some time to study, assess and provide instruction, as if comprehension were a skill, rather like swimming. Okay, what do you guys think now? Well,

Stacy Hurst:

he makes the correlation between once you can swim, you can swim in different bodies of water, right? You can swim in a swimming pool, you can swim in a lake. And he's going to set us up to say that reading comprehension is not necessarily like that.

Donell Pons:

Absolutely. And yet, boy, is it an enticing thing to think of comprehension in that way, right? Because then it feels very malleable. It feels very doable, in many ways. And I think that's been to its detriment, and comprehension, don't you?

Lindsay Kemeny:

You know, I like how he's saying we're treating it like it's a single construct, and it's not. And you'll remember that, like, one of my favorite quotes from that Castles, Rastle, and Nation is saying comprehension is an orchestrated set of cognitive and linguistic processes, right? There's so many things going on, we can't treat it as one thing. It's not so easy to measure and just test comprehension. It's really difficult because there's so many things that go into it.

Stacy Hurst:

And you know, as I read this article, I was thinking about the castle wrestling nation article as well, and how they address background knowledge. And when they talked about local and global cohesion. It really made me think of what Dr. Katz is saying here. And we're starting to see convergence. Right. So I think that is going to be very helpful for us as a profession.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a nice point that you made Stacy about the convergence because you definitely see it there. So he goes on to talk about the comprehension as skill myth, and Stacy has talked about the fact you know that he represented it as swimming. And we've treated it that way that once I've taught you those skills with you know, a few adjustments, you can move to any body of water, right, and you still have those skills, reading not the same thing. So he says How have we come to think of comprehension as a skill? I believe a major reason this has occurred is because we have talked and written about comprehension in the context of related skill like abilities, and I thought that was very interesting because He's right, just the representation of comprehension has led to this understanding. Discussions about reading often include the topics of phonics, fluency and related skills such as phonemic awareness together with comprehension. As an example, take the work of the National Reading Panel, this panel of reading experts was convened by Congress to assess the effectiveness of different approaches to reading, teaching reading, they examine a wide range of instructional approaches related to comprehension. But an overview of their work, comprehension has been reduced to one of the big five, along with phonemic awareness, phonics, fluency and vocabulary. What do you guys think of that? To me?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Like the five pillars? That doesn't really bother me? I guess. So I guess I'm just like, Okay, I still think it's an a component of reading, even though it's not like the other. So the others are skills and a little easier to teach. It's an outcome. But I don't know, to me like, the five pillars. It's just, I don't know, I guess I don't think of them as each individual. Like I could still say, oh, comprehension, but there's so much more that goes into it. But it's still like, an important part of reading. Right. But it is the outcome.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, I noticed the contrast between how you said that we've reduced it to be one of the big five. So that really tells you how expansive comprehension is, right? Because we call the Big Five, the big five.

Lindsay Kemeny:

I don't know if it's like really the reason like he's saying, this is the reason because of like, for example, the National Reading Panel is putting it there. And this, I don't really know if that would be the reason why it's being treated as a skill. I know plenty of people that aren't familiar with the national reading panel that still treat it as just the single entity. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:

I think that's a good call out. One thing that we do know about research in the area of comprehension, there are skills, there are approaches that have been proven to be more effective, but they are skills. They're not knowledge in general. So when we talk about things like reciprocal teaching, and he says this later in the article when he says, we lost sight of comprehension, and part of the reason was that we started focusing on those skills that can be applied across texts. And we maybe got hyper focused on that he did. Those are my words, not his. But when we're talking about things like reciprocal teaching, you are learning skills, that in most cases, you can feasibly apply to any text. But I thought that was an interesting point two, he also references the RAND study that was done. If I'm not mistaken, it might have been around the same time as the National Reading Panel. And they even made comprehension a little bit more complex there to saying that we need to attend to the reader, the text and the task. So it's not just a skill. And they they already started pointing that out.

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Donell Pons:

So Catts goes on to maintain that idea about how why we think about reading the way we do if it's from the graphic writer could be one of the main reasons. And then he's also seen it placed in even smaller boxes in terms of what reading looks like. But then he says comprehension has typically been taught through the use of strategies such as find the main idea, make a prediction, or monitor your comprehension. These strategies are taught in practice in order to gain automaticity. Much like what is done with other skill like behaviors. This in turn can lead us to believe that comprehension can be thought of in a similar manner to these other skills. So I thought that was really interesting, because I do see that happen quite a bit, where if you've taught the student to do this one particular thing, a strategy, then you feel good, good to go if they can answer the questions in that particular strategy. But he's asking us to think of it deeper, right. And then he moves on to say a more and complex, accurate model he's moving on to in the next section. So like he referred to stet Stacy with the RAND study of nearly 20 years ago. He was saying this complexity was captured by the Rent reading study group, this federally funded group was charged with developing a research agenda to address pressing issues in literacy. And as part of their 2002 report, they conceptualized reading comprehension as a combination of factors within three different categories, the reader, the text, and the activity of reading. So that is interesting. And the reader brings a set of cognitive abilities, language, knowledge and skills. Readers vary considerably in these factors and is variability impacts their comprehension. considerable research attention has been focused on reader variability variables, and their impact on comprehension is well documented. Keep that in mind with our students that we see coming into schools today. And the challenges that we hear teachers talking about today about those students coming into the school. So when we think about the complexities of the reader, what challenges do our students face today?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Well, like one of the ones in here attention. That's a that's a big one that I see. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:

I think that maybe another way to say that would be distractions, too. And I think one very interesting point he makes in the article later on, sorry, go into the later on cards. But he does say that knowledge helps us make the most of our working memory. So when you ask that question, Donell, I'm so glad you did. Because it makes me think, what kind of knowledge building do students have before they come to school? What background are they bringing with them? What schema? And you know, we've had a lot of conversations lately about the impact of COVID. And the three of us just had a conversation over text over the, over the weekend about this. So I think that's really going to impact comprehension for them, because their experiences and background knowledge. were limited, right? Yeah.

Donell Pons:

And educators talking about oral language development, even being not where they've seen it in the past, right. And we know how important that is to reading development. And if you figure that a student is coming into kindergarten, and they're behind already in those basics, they've only got what a year, and a few months, to be ready for what's coming in first grade is interesting to think about in terms of reading, preparation, and powerful stuff about knowledge. So he goes on to talk a little bit about an activity that refers to the task or purpose of reading, it is often argued that the purpose of reading is comprehension. But we actually seek to comprehend for a specific reason, the it to prepare for a test, evaluate the strengths of an argument, learn the rules of the game, or enjoy a magazine article or book, each purpose brings unique knowledge and skills that must be acquired to be successful. Well, I love that definition of comprehension, don't you? What is comprehension? It's knowledge

Stacy Hurst:

that you mentioned, he was at the Big Sky literacy Summit. And he said it in a way that got most people's attention right away, because he started that part of his talk by saying, we don't read to comprehend. That's not the purpose we read. And I don't know whether or not it's the I've spent a good portion of my career defending phonics instruction, right? And the need for it, that I always pitifully, I would say, you know, this is well, of course, we know, comprehension is the reason we read. But when he said that, I think everybody kind of took notice. And he said, we read to build knowledge. And I, ah, that's insightful. And that's an important insight. It was for me anyway, I think. I

Lindsay Kemeny:

like the idea to build knowledge for a specific purpose, like he's pointing out here. That's really interesting. And isn't that true? Like, you can just skim something really quick. You can read it deeply, because you're going to talk about it in a podcast later, or you're reading an email to get the the main points. I mean, what is your purpose? I like thinking about that, and thinking about that with our students giving them a purpose when we read

Stacy Hurst:

apps. I love it, too. Yeah, I always think about that in the terms of applying. How are you going to apply what we learn? And as you were talking, Lindsay, that's what I was thinking of. That's part of the task and part of the motivation for building knowledge. Right? Yeah,

Donell Pons:

so there's no one set of skills as he was saying about swimming that you can just apply everywhere, because each of those texts and opportunities and tasks and various things that were asked to do with reading can vary dramatically. Right? And like you said, Lindsay, are we reading it for a surface read? That's one skill. Do we need a deeper take? That's another skill Wow. Okay, here we go. Now we see comprehension and its challenges. What's in here Stacy's that quote, he makes it his He's famous for as a result, comprehension cannot be reduced to a single notion, because it is not a single ability. So there we go. And chief among the factors influencing reading comprehension is background knowledge, boom, he says it and puts a period on it. What's his next statement? research clearly shows that how much readers understand it Got the topic before they read is a major factor in how much they understand while and after they read it? Well, let's talk about that how much they understand before they read. What do we think? You know,

Stacy Hurst:

as we've been having this conversation, as I read the article, I am thinking so many things, right? Like how to apply this, where do we apply this. And as a teacher, you're always looking for that, because we apply it in our teaching, with the intent of increasing our students knowledge and ability. But I was thinking about how the three of us are journeys in this, what we're calling the science of reading, right. But think back, you know, when I was first reading the national reading panel, there was so much that I didn't know, but I can read that today. And I noticed the little nuances. I noticed the finite things. Like for the longest time, I said, the National Reading Panel found that phonological awareness is important to focus on Well, no, they didn't. It was phonemic awareness, very specifically, right. So I think even as teachers and learners in general, how we approach a text has everything to do with our background knowledge and schema, he calls out schema as an anchor, to attach new knowledge to It's a framework for taking in new information. So there's so much to think about here, right?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Well, I think that that, like we assume too much. So we assume the students know the relevant information, they need to read the text, and we don't and so you, you hear a lot about, oh, we have to activate background knowledge. Well, if they don't have the background knowledge in the first place, we don't need to activate it, we need to build background knowledge. So it's thinking a little more about, okay, how can I do that, and making sure you set aside time. Because I'm guilty of this. Here's our story that we need to read today. And we jump right in. And then it's while reading it that I'm like, oh, I should have like, pulled out a map, I should have showed them where this is I should have done all this stuff, to help them build that knowledge before we had read the text. So it's like, okay, what can I do? Beforehand, I can read through the text we're going to read and kind of think what are they going to struggle with? What do they need to understand to be able to understand the story, and try to talk about some of those things beforehand,

Stacy Hurst:

which it made me rethink that K W. l practice so many of us are familiar with. And I would say in the past, the K was activating background knowledge, right? But now I look at it as if I were to use that strategy in my classroom, it would be for me to assess what my students already know about the topic. So I know how to build their background knowledge before they encounter the text, it really

Donell Pons:

got me thinking it got me thinking about how often like you said, Lindsay, in all honesty, you can get pressed for time. And so you're rushing through those pieces that you know, are really important, but you have so much to do, and that it gave me it, you know, it got me to slow down and say, Boy, I really need to take time with those parts. And it's good to be reminded of how important they are. Because I do think when you have so many things to teach. And this is the most important thing I know it needs prioritize, let's take it to the top of the list, where it might have gotten down lower, it's really made me think about moving it to the top of my list. And it also gave me a pause to think of an experience that I had in the past with some students, a specific group of students, and they were all on the autism spectrum. And so it was trying to engage with a piece of literature that, you know, oftentimes that can be challenging anyway, for any student. And I remember that this time, I had an opportunity, I had gathered some resources, because I had a real particular interest in what it was we were going to read. And so I did some of that before we had even had clips, they were old black and white images that I had found online of the individual we were reading about it was Helen Keller, in fact, and a lot of the students in the beginning just had no interest. I mean, I don't know this is blah, blah, blah, who cares. But pulled out that little bit, we watched some some black and white video. This was very engaging. And then we had a discussion of her travels, she had actually been to the location where the students live, they didn't know that. And this all became very interesting. And then we started the first read. And I have to say, Boy was at a much better rate, one of the better reads that we had. So you can even just see, there's evidence I know how to gain evidence and watching that I even watched it in my own classroom. It's very interesting. But it's challenging. I'll acknowledge that, because you got a lot to teach. Interesting. We're gonna jump ahead here because I can we could do this all day. Let's jump ahead so we get a little further into this. We may not get it all. But he was going even has even more quotes and things about how you build that and how important it is. And he also makes a point that the knowledge that was provided to the students only really made a difference it was provided and available from the start. And I think that's really important, very important that in the studies that they conducted, it was filling holes along the way, whatever else, nothing was more effective than from the start receiving the information, or having that available to you. I think that's a really important point. And then he also said something else, that up front, you had to have that framework of knowledge to provide a track. I thought that was really interesting that he said, so this is, under what knowledge does for comprehension. Why is knowledge so critical for comprehension to begin with, it provides a framework for organizing incoming information and guides us as we read through a text, we better understand what the topic is, and have expectations about where a passage may be going. By doing so, knowledge keeps us on track and prevents us from going down blind alleys in our understanding, this framework also gives us a place to anchor new information in memory and associate it with past knowledge. What did you guys think it was really interesting.

Lindsay Kemeny:

I love that I love that idea of like, connecting it with something you already know, I could see that like, with my son when I'm helping him like, for example, he's in a US History class right now. And it really helps to be like, Well, remember, we just learned that the Puritans did this, and this and this. And now we're learning about these guys and kind of say, like, connect it somehow to the Puritans. And that helps because it's just like, it's like a track, you know, it's like they're making a connection in their brain. I think I like the idea of schema. What's

Donell Pons:

what's really interesting is, it all lends itself into that. Once an individual understands how to take the knowledge that they have for one area and connect it connections to me are so important. When I see a student making a connection with a text, I'm thrilled, that, to me is the most important and exciting thing that can happen is when a student is reading something from a passage, we stopped to say, Well, gosh, what do we think about that? And the student says, Well, I remember when and pulls out something from something else, I'm thrilled to hear that happen. Because then you know, they've laid it down, and they're pulling it in, is there right? And then I want to, I want to read this little section here under knowledge. Again, knowledge is also essential for thinking. But in certain contexts these days, it is seen as secondary to thinking, critical thinking has become the rage in education. All too often, teachers are urged to engage students in thinking deeply and critically about what they read as if the skills were independent of the topic. Meanwhile, background knowledge is downplayed, as if the specific information about a topic could be looked up on the internet when necessary. But it is that specific information that gives students something to think critically about what do you guys think of that? That's

Lindsay Kemeny:

my favorite part of the like, I highlighted that too. I love that. You can't think deeply about something when you don't know anything about it. And so that just shows how important it is. We can't ask our students to think critically, without that knowledge piece. And so Absolutely, we need to spend a little more time on that knowledge building so that they can think critically. And

Stacy Hurst:

not to assume knowledge, either he when he talks about that he gives the example if you think they will know it, right, they could do a Google search and learn about it. But it's not the same thing. So we can't assume it. And he a point he makes repeatedly throughout the article is that knowledge building takes time,

Lindsay Kemeny:

that's his quote says must accumulate over time to ensure a level of depth that allows for the critical analysis of the subject matter. So it's a good reminder.

Donell Pons:

And especially don't you think in this day and age of information at your fingertips. And it makes such a good point about the fact that just a Google searches, something does not ensure that the student really has an understanding, and how often we speak to things we don't really have a good understanding of, and it's totally acceptable to do that. Well, and I

Stacy Hurst:

think we did that for a long time. And when we're talking about reading instruction, right, because we assumed we had a depth that we didn't have all the information for, so we couldn't really know.

Donell Pons:

Fantastic. So we're coming up to the end of our time. I'm like I said, I could do this forever. So I'm going to just open up and do you guys have any quotes from the rest of it that you would like to share things I didn't hit on yet?

Lindsay Kemeny:

I have one more. I like the quote where it said the relationship between knowledge and reading comprehension is reciprocal. So of course, we've been talking about knowledge improves the comprehension. But it also goes the other way. Right? So with the comprehension now, they can also be building new knowledge through that reading. So I like that point.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, and I'm relating all of this to vocabulary, too. He brings that up. That part of that knowledge is vocabulary associated to what you're learning about. And we know we've known for a long time that background knowledge and vocabulary have the greatest impact on comprehension. Now we understand why. But really focusing on that reciprocal nature of the teacher I think is important because the number one way to grow your vocabulary, once you can read is through reading. And I

Donell Pons:

love here that he says So culturally relevant knowledge concerning the individuals, there are places and objects that students interact with on a daily basis. That's all very important. And by understanding and appreciating connecting with this knowledge, learning can be specially enhanced for all children. I thought that was very interesting. That is so true, right?

Stacy Hurst:

He also called out because part of me, you go back and forth between, well, then how do we bring those two strands of Scarborough's rope together, right? Because, essentially, he's talking about those upper strands. And how do you reconcile that you need both. And he says that, right? He's not saying we shouldn't focus on those skills that you need to become more automatic. The reason they need to be automatic is so that you can build background knowledge. But he also says that learning about grammar is background knowledge, we're gaining a schema, and that will help us understand what we're reading. Right. So I think that was important for me, I still need to think through that a little bit. But I thought that was a great point that he made when he talked about the kinds of disciplinary knowledge we need to know.

Donell Pons:

We can't wrap this up without talking about assessment again, and how we assess comprehension like Stacey you alluded to at the beginning. And he says maybe the problem is not only the instructional practices teachers have been encouraged to use, but also the way we are assessing comprehension. An alternative approach would be to teach children using an integrated literacy and content rich, this just sounds amazing, content rich curriculum, and to test their ability to read and comprehend passages covered in that curriculum. In other words, offer a better match between instruction and assessment. Don't just test the skills and strategies that have been taught, test the specific content area topics that have been taught a lot of it. What did you guys think of that? Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:

this makes me think back to early childhood education and the things we learned about it. When I was in college, we learned a lot about thematic units. I do teach that now in a pre service setting. Our focus for thematic units in that setting is on preschool. But I'm thinking we need to expand it into all grade levels. Think more thematically, so you are building background knowledge of a topic or you know, something that will be useful and valuable in their lifetime to learn.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, I love that he is not only does he offer up, this is the challenge. Here's the problem. This is what I see. But he offers up some pretty interesting solutions, which I thought was helpful. He's not just lamenting that, Oh, isn't this a challenge? But rather, he's he's gone and done a very good job of taking it apart?

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah. And I think that it's been called out as an equity issue and assessment before rightfully so, when you're talking about background knowledge and what a reader brings to the text. Because there are some things in some assessments, I've seen that you are assuming privilege, you're assuming, for example, every family goes on summer vacation, when that's not the case. Right. So I think, again, all of this information is converging. I think that we have a lot of exciting things to learn about this.

Donell Pons:

And it also makes to me, this is like universal design for all learners. When we view comprehension, more deeply like this, that to me is universal for the whole class. Now you start to see everybody's strengths that they're bringing, what their background what could be, and this discussion of comprehension to me just backs that up. It's really interesting. Anyways, fantastic. Thank you to Hugh Catts for putting this together. It's fantastic.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, for sure. And thank you, Darnell, for bringing this topic to our attention. I really am spending more time thinking about this one that other topics that we've addressed recently. So I'm sure there will be more insights. I recommend that everybody get the article and spend some time reading it, and hope that you gain as much from it as I did. And thank you again, you too, for the conversation. I love that we get to do this. And it really does help my background knowledge grow. So thank you, and thanks to everybody who's joining us. I hope you'll join us next time on the next episode of Literacy Talks.

Narrator:

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