Big Numbers, Big Impact. Education Statistics and What They Mean for Literacy Instruction

Our trio of experts takes a deep dive into statistics, looking at the data and trends in general education and what those numbers might mean for literacy instruction. An example? The average student-to-teacher ratio in elementary grades is 15 students to 1 teacher. What does that point to? As our hosts see it, smaller class sizes can reduce some of the need for small-group instruction because teachers have more time to spend with students individually as needed.

That’s just the start of this eye-opening, number-crunching episode. You can count on gathering some insightful data from this episode of Literacy Talks.

Show Notes
Literacy Leaders

• Maryanne Wolf

Resources

• Acadience
• ESGI

References

• Statista. “Average Salary of Classroom Teachers in Public Schools in the U.S. From 1980 to 2021.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• NCES. “Back-to-School Statistics” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• NCES. “Educational Institutions.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• CER. “K-12 Facts.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• U.S. News. “High School Teacher Salary.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• Statista. “Estimated Average Salary of Public School Teachers in the United States in 2020-2021, by State.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• We Are Teachers. “12 Powerful Statistics That Prove Why Teachers Matter.”Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• Learning Policy Institute. “A Coming Crisis in Teaching? Teacher Supply, Demand, and Shortages in the U.S.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• NCES. “Digest of Education Statistics.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. “Occupational Outlook Handbook: Kindergarten and Elementary School Teachers.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. “Occupational Outlook Handbook: High School Teachers.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• NCES. “National Teacher and Principal Survey: Average and Median Age of Public School Teachers and Percentage Distribution of Teachers by Age Category, Sex, and State: 2017-18.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• NCES. “Teacher Characteristics and Trends.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• NCES. “Characteristics of Public School Teachers.” Accessed on April 21, 2022.
• NCES. “Data Point: Race and Ethnicity of Public School Teachers and Their Students.” Accessed on

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Transcript

Narrator: 0:04

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons literacy talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies that will help all learners reach reading proficiency. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. In this episode, our trio of literacy experts looks at the numbers, the recent statistics coming from general education and what these numbers mean for literacy education. As an example, currently, the average student teacher ratio in early grades is 15 students to one teacher, the impact is significant, and it often means a reduced need for small group instruction. And that's just the beginning of this deep dive into stats and data from teachers job satisfaction to their education levels, the looming teacher shortage and more. This episode will help us all understand the challenges and changes in today's education landscape. Ready to apply new data points to your knowledge base? Let's get started.

Stacy Hurst: 1:33

Welcome to this episode of Literacy Talks, my name is Stacy Hurst. I'm the host and I'm joined by Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons. And today we are going to talk about teacher and Education Statistics, which that might seem general you guys but we are going to speculate emphasis on the word speculate on what those statistics might have in store for literacy, education, the way that we teach reading, so I'll just start with some very general statistics. And then we can respond to those general statistics. For the first part of the conversation. Do you guys have any idea how many public school teachers there are in the United States? Just guess? I

Lindsay Kemeny: 2:23

can't guess I'm terrible with this kind of stuff.

Stacy Hurst: 2:27

That's I'm glad I'm asking. Donell, do you dare guess?

Donell Pons: 2:31

Yeah, no guesses? I mean, cuz here's the problem with guessing is that if I do a wild number, then when you get do the the number was like, Oh, well, that's disappointing.

Stacy Hurst: 2:41

All right, fine. We're not very adventurous. Take the numbers. Are we? Okay, there are about 3.152 million public school teachers in the US. Okay, this one, you would have a better guess about? What percentage of those public school teachers would you guess would be female?

Lindsay Kemeny: 3:02

I think I saw this statistic. So I already know. Okay, just say it's like 75%, isn't it? Very

Stacy Hurst: 3:09

close to 75?

Donell Pons: 3:11

That makes sense to me. Because if you walk into any particularly elementary schools, they're generally dominated by female teachers. And it's pretty rare to find a male in an elementary school setting. And then even in a middle school, you start to see a few more. But yeah, that doesn't surprise me. I don't think.

Stacy Hurst: 3:28

Yeah, and, you know, based on my small sample size, I don't think that's going to change I teach sixth. Well, okay, four literacy classes, and I probably have a total of four male students. I wonder

Lindsay Kemeny: 3:44

is the same for professors? Do you think like, I wonder if we have more female education professors than male

Stacy Hurst: 3:51

that is trying to think of my department. My department's about half and half?

Lindsay Kemeny: 3:58

Oh, really. But when you go to like the higher ed Summit, is it mostly women?

Stacy Hurst: 4:02

Yes. That's very good point. Also, a lot of men work their way to administrative positions a lot quicker through of those 25%? I'm not sure. Well, they were just talking about teachers. And by the way, we will put our resources in the show notes. We're not just making numbers up as we have this conversation. So

Lindsay Kemeny: 4:25

it'd be interesting also of the admin, are there more male admin then there

Stacy Hurst: 4:30

are and I could not find this statistic for that. But I do remember reading that before. So

Donell Pons: 4:37

just not to get off topic. But you did kind of hit on something really interesting, although more women graduate. actually remember when that number became a thing. And there were more women graduating from universities, that still full time faculty at universities, about 31% are women. And that's interesting. It is.

Stacy Hurst: 4:57

Generally Yeah. So that's a general statistic, what impact if any, do you think that would have on literacy instruction? Or the reading development of our students? What

Lindsay Kemeny: 5:10

do you mean, the fact that there's more women than men?

Stacy Hurst: 5:14

That's a statistic honestly, that I don't really think would mean my Yeah, no, I

Lindsay Kemeny: 5:19

don't think it would make a difference. Danelle,

Stacy Hurst: 5:22

what do you think? I do kind

Donell Pons: 5:24

of wonder about the I don't know, again, it's a wondering who's making the decisions to about what's being done. We know statistically, that more women are teaching in classrooms are female. But what about making decisions or being decision makers, because that's a lot of word, the really important stuff happens is in the decision making of what gets taught.

Stacy Hurst: 5:48

So that maybe if males are, let's just say over represented by comparison, in administrative positions compared to females, then that could have an impact. And most of the teachers are female. Interesting to think, yeah. Okay. Here's one, the average student teacher ratio. Now, we happen to live in a state that has a very high student to teacher ratio. But what would you guys guess the average is across the country?

Lindsay Kemeny: 6:21

I saw this statistic already, too. But I kind of think it's not talking about a classroom when I looked into it. I don't think it was talking about sort of this small. I think it's just talking about the adults in a building per how many students there are. Could

Stacy Hurst: 6:37

be, it's 15. To one. So 15 students to every one adult, or teacher is does say student teacher ratio. So yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny: 6:48

it was somewhere else in the I'll see if I can find it, because I feel like they explained it somewhere. Because I was like, what, there's no way that we that's the average? I don't know, I don't believe it. Because I think most classes are much, much bigger than that. I would love to have a class of 15 Oh, my goodness. Let's see.

Stacy Hurst: 7:07

I would too. But you know, what I think we are teaching in a state, like I mentioned that has really high, our average student teacher ratio is more in the 20s. So we are one of the highest in the country. So what impact would that have on teaching reading?

Lindsay Kemeny: 7:26

I mean, I think smaller is better. When you have students that struggle learning to read, they need more help more feedback from the teacher. And that's just easier to do if you have a smaller class size. I

Donell Pons: 7:41

agree with Lindsey on the differentiation. And it just just by the sheer capacity thinking about having to juggle more, if you have fewer things to have to keep an eye on and take care of you could be more attentive, it just makes sense not to say it can't be done. But it just makes sense that the higher the numbers get the harder it gets to be. Another interesting thing, Lindsay, you brought up that I just kind of tracked down I think it was you that brought it up. And it was interesting to think about in those school buildings where we tend to have more women than men in teaching positions. How many are principals or what's administration and apparently we have more women, serving as principals in schools in elementary and in secondary in the United States, which

Lindsay Kemeny: 8:22

I think is kind of interesting. Do you mean than before or it just

Donell Pons: 8:26

looking at statistically, they said in 2020 21, we had more, more females made up a higher percentage of elementary and secondary school principals. Oh, wow, public and private.

Lindsay Kemeny: 8:35

I also think just the big class sizes, that just leads to teacher burnout. So even sometimes, like on Twitter or whatever, I'll have people say, Well, statistically, the these classes still perform as well, or whatever they still, you know, do as well on standardized test. But I think teacher you're working that teacher thin, more students is more students to make sure you have their their attention, more grading more prep work, you know, it's, it's a lot. So I definitely, that's just something I wish we could cap our classes so they don't get so big.

Donell Pons: 9:11

And if we're talking about holistic teaching a holistic approach the whole child, which is everything around that child, then again, teacher burnout, because that's a lot to manage and be responsible for and attentive to as a teacher,

Stacy Hurst: 9:25

okay, that since we are talking about teacher burnout, will shift to those statistics. But I would like to say something about class size first. That would even impact like you guys have said, the quality of your whole class instruction. I think if you had a smaller class, maybe there would be less of a need for small group instruction in your day. I'm not saying ever that we shouldn't do it. But even that small group instruction would be more impactful. So that's a good point. Okay. Why do teachers quit teaching? Lots of reasons. speculate. Why do you guys think?

Lindsay Kemeny: 10:04

Because we're expected to do everything? And be everything? We have to be experts in every area, we have to teach every area we have to be a counselor, we have to, you know, I don't know, we have so many roles to play, and it's overwhelming sometimes.

Stacy Hurst: 10:21

A lot of times, yeah. Here's a fun statistic. On average, teachers work 400 hours of overtime each year,

Donell Pons: 10:28

doesn't surprise me at least I was about to say we have super high expectations for what we expect out of a teacher, but very low, a very little consideration. And criticism, high criticism to high criticism,

Lindsay Kemeny: 10:43

yes. And that in you just had to have so much judgment from from everyone really like so you'll see it. You know, I hate going online and reading some news article about education. And then there's, you know, you should know, just never read the comments below, because you see the worst. You know, the worst things come out of people. But it's hard to see what they say. And then sometimes people just aren't understanding. And I feel like, you know, we're criticized openly online, you put something out there and someone criticizes that they don't know, like, everything you're going through, like, okay, yes, I didn't have time to pre read this part of my lesson before school, because I had a parent come in, and then I had a student who threw up outside, and then I had to go and help them and whatever, you know, just like all the little things, I think we just need to be I don't know. So it just, I hate when people are super critical of a teacher or that just see one part. And then they kind of judge them. Because like you don't know, like all the things that they're going through.

Stacy Hurst: 11:45

I agree. And I think we suffer as a profession. Because people have been through it right? When we talked about the illusion of explanatory depth, just because people have been through maybe 12 years of public school, they might think they can teach right or that they know teaching. In the same way, those of us who are proficient readers might think that teaching reading is easy, because you know, seemed to come easy to us. So that probably adds to the scrutiny. There's something a little bit scary. And like we mentioned, tons of reasons that teachers leave 44% of teachers leave within their first five years of teaching.

Donell Pons: 12:28

That's what I was about to say that's a really bad statistic that's been pretty steady.

Stacy Hurst: 12:32

And they generally do not come back. So what I'm thinking too, of all the statistics we've talked about, with higher ed and most teachers, at this time, it feels like they weren't prepared well to teach reading in their pre service education. So now that there's some of us who are trying to teach the things that will help our pre service teachers teach reading in an effective way, if 44% of them are leaving, what does that mean for our students?

Lindsay Kemeny: 13:06

And we need to think about the kinds of supports those new teachers have in the classroom. You know, do they have good mentors? Is there some coaching involved, we have people in there, you know, helping them because it is a lot. And I would add special education teachers, especially I think, have it really tough. So we I just know someone who is a first year, being a special education teacher, and she's already quitting. And we're in March. And she talked about the work related stress. And I just think, Oh, this is so sad, you know, you know, we need to be thinking, how can we support the new teacher? So they don't leave? Yeah,

Stacy Hurst: 13:52

that's a really good question. We should do a search on that donor. And

Donell Pons: 13:57

you know, Stacy, you talked about what does this mean for literacy? Well, I think we can all work out what that means for literacy. It's not good. Because we know that really highly trained skilled educators are a real asset. When you're teaching literacy. That's one of the pieces we've been missing. So we've been putting all of this effort towards getting more training for teachers. Well, if the turnover is so high, where if the likelihood of a teacher staying doesn't look very good, you can only imagine what's happening to that they never really getting to hit their stride, right? We're investing a bit we're not really ever getting there. And then that piece about thinking about all the expectations we have for educators, I don't know a teacher that takes a full summer off. I've never met one because I always hear that complaint too is that we get a full summer off. I've never known a teacher that takes a full summer off. They're prepping Ms. That's time to finally get a breath to be able to start prepping, they maybe get some new things into my classroom. And every summer, particularly if you're teaching anything to do with literacy. You're getting some training of some kind.

Stacy Hurst: 14:57

Yeah, and I or just recovering recovering from the previous school year. Right. And at this point, we can't really call that a break. In some ways, right? There are really a lot of things that teachers will have the need to decompress in the summer. So they do cite all of those things that you guys I've mentioned for reasons to leave. A lot of them mentioned the pay to Oh, yeah, yeah, we haven't even mentioned that yet. But as elementary teachers, we make significantly less than other people with the same level of education. In our careers, about a quarter of teachers leave the profession because of the paid specifically, when we thought about that,

Donell Pons: 15:42

Stacy, when you bring up the pay piece, I've heard this one related to why there are more women teaching than men that typically are traditionally it doesn't pay enough for men to be interested in becoming teachers. I think that's interesting. That's been connected. Yeah.

Stacy Hurst: 15:59

And I think especially like 20 years ago, or more, that made a lot of sense compared to how society was structured at that point, right. But if you think about the history of teaching, it really has been stereotypically male centric. So as it remember, in like Little House on the Prairie days, female teachers couldn't be married and teach. So all the administrators at that point were men and female teachers made very little money with very little preparation. And so I think maybe as an institution, we just kept going. Nobody ever pulled the plug and said, Wait, let's reevaluate this and see how we can make some meaningful changes. They just kind of kept going with what they were in what they inherited. So

Lindsay Kemeny: 16:49

the average salary of an elementary school teacher is 65,000, the year high school 67,000. And you know, how many of those teachers have master's degrees? I just think that we are really, really behind most people who have a master's degree, I think, make a lot more than teachers. But I think New York's average was quite a bit higher. Do you remember that one? Let's see. It

Stacy Hurst: 17:13

was and I think that's because of the cost of living in New York City. Mississippi was the lowest to be

Lindsay Kemeny: 17:19

remembering correctly, York was the highest. I feel like I saw it somewhere. But now I'm not seeing I feel like it was like, maybe 80,000. But I don't see it right in front of me. But New York has the highest average and Mississippi, the lowest. So

Stacy Hurst: 17:32

you mentioned Lindsey, teachers have master's degrees. 51% of teachers hold a Master's degree.

Lindsay Kemeny: 17:38

I think about half of them do and then our average is $61,000 a year. Yeah.

Stacy Hurst: 17:45

It's no wonder right? They also I read one of the statistics, we have a profession where we are more likely to have another job.

Lindsay Kemeny: 17:55

Why? Because we're not paid enough. Yeah. And it all goes back to then teacher burnout, right? Because we're like overworked, and underpaid.

Stacy Hurst: 18:06

And even if you're having taking that second job on in the summer, then again, you don't get the benefits of unplugging, so to speak. And what impact do you think all of that would have on literacy? I mean, it seems like a no brainer, right? Like, if we're training teachers the correct way, the aligned way to teach literacy, and then they're quitting. And by the way, another statistic based on teacher leaving that we're going to outpace the demand by 2025. It says if this estimate holds true of the people leaving the profession, the US is demand for teachers will outpace it supply by more than 100,000 by 2025. That's next year,

Donell Pons: 18:55

I was just going to say we haven't really talked about the fact that most states are facing teacher shortages. And so now we're looking to have even fewer teachers that have gone through any sort of formal training, entering into schools, because we just need to find people to do the job. So this ought to tell us there needs to be a pretty good overhaul of the whole way that we approach training, prepping, and then maintaining a teacher workforce, not the least of which is making the job more attractive. And I think we've hit on all the points about why the job isn't very attractive. And I think it needs to be okay to say that if I want to have really good high quality teachers, it's okay for those teachers to say, well then I expect to make so much it's okay to say that why is it okay to say that in other professions, but it isn't okay for teachers? Well, it should be right attorneys. I hear them say all the time, well pay the paycheck is pretty attractive. Why isn't that okay? For teachers, if I'm really good at my job, I should be compensated. That's okay to say as a teacher, and

Stacy Hurst: 19:54

you know, we cannot bargain. When we're offered a job. We don't have to If you can't say, oh no, I need 10,000 more a year, I won't make it. This is how it is pay scales are set. You don't negotiate arrays, they just kind of happen automatically. By the way, those numbers I just shared, I just realized that was based on an estimate made in 2016. So it does not take into account all the teachers that left because of burnout because of COVID. So, you, to your point, Donell, we're going to have teachers who are taking what we would traditionally call the alternate Route to Licensure. And I mean that their various routes, some are still well prepared. Although I think that's the minority. If you consider our traditional prep programs, or do we do our best, but that's kind of scary to think about. And when we're talking about having that level of education, and the amount of pay comparatively, given the number of overtime, unpaid overtime, by the way, and so over 400 hours of overtime in a year that you're donating. And then where do teachers get the money to spend on materials for their classroom? From that pay? They're paying their own money 70% of teachers use their own money for classroom supplies. And then you have the fact that if you want to move up on that pay scale, who pays for that education? You do? So yeah. So man, I think we're painting a pretty gloomy picture. I feel like we need to like, take a turn here. I think some good points about that, though. Maybe if these statistics continue to be if people become aware of them, maybe change will happen. So like you said, done, we can make this profession look more appealing. There is good news. 60% of teachers said that they're happy with their jobs, they feel like it's so that's more than half. So I probably shouldn't follow up with that still low compared to other professions.

Lindsay Kemeny: 22:09

I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, only 60%. But we just talked about why like look at all those, the pay the pressures.

Stacy Hurst: 22:19

Yeah. And then between 2009 and 2014. So this is a while ago, there was a 35% decrease in enrollment for teacher education programs. So I would just say generally, this might not be too different in the future.

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Donell Pons: 23:30

So it's interesting to think about also other countries, because that comes up to other countries where it seems like teachers, they don't struggle to find teachers, and you look at those systems. And if you start to dissect them just a little bit you find that pay is is one of those factors that they've looked at and said, No, the pay needs to be higher, in order to attract people to this as a profession, because it is, after all, if it's your profession, and it's your career, then being able to provide for yourself and have a quality of life that seems appealing, would would generally be a factor, and that is in other countries. And then you look at the other pieces that some of these other countries have applied. And that's things like, really good, excellent teacher support and prep. In some countries. I did some looking at this a few years ago, deeply to see what are other countries doing that could be applied to the United States. And these were some of those things. But when when you do those kinds of things, what happens is there's a general turn also in the way that teachers are treated in the society. They're valued. So unfortunately, we do attach pay to value we just do and that's what we do. And when teachers were considered to be this was a real profession. It raised the standard, and then people thought of it as a profession that was desirable.

Stacy Hurst: 24:47

Yeah, and you know, I do think, well, let me ask this, I'll ask it as a question. Why do people go into teaching in the first place then, given all these bleak statistics,

Lindsay Kemeny: 24:59

they want to make a difference. That's right. I think most people, they love children, and they want to make a difference, and they want to help them. And

Donell Pons: 25:06

so I'm going to give it sort of a different take. Because I came to education later. My mother was a teacher, my mother was an educator. She tried to get me to go into teaching, I refused. I remember having conversations with no. And my mother said, Oh, you'd make such a great teacher. And I said to my mom, I won't do it, because you're paid very poorly, and people don't treat you very well. And that was years ago. I mean, I'm not going to age myself. That was a long time ago. So those factors were there present back when I was making decisions about what I was going to go into. The reason I eventually did end up in education is because I had family members who were struggling. And I needed to get a handle on this, go back to school, get educated, and then realized, wow, there's a whole lot that needs to happen for these other students. And that got me into education. But I think that's kind of interesting. It wasn't the first choice because of the things we've been talking about.

Lindsay Kemeny: 26:00

Yeah, the problem I want to bring up, because we're talking about, you know, these teachers leaving and we need good teachers, another thing I see is that we have really excellent teachers. But maybe they either want more flexibility, some less pressure, and they need or they need more money. And so they're a really good teacher, but they leave the classroom either to go to coaching or administration or to go work for a private company. And, and it makes me so sad whenever I see that because I'm like, we need good teachers, we need good teachers to stay like. And that's like me, I'm trying to lead from where I am, right? I want to stay in the classroom, but I want to lead from where I am. So can we, you know, if we increase pay, that can help. If we still I think increased like the respect for the teacher, like, I don't necessarily think a literacy coach, or an administrative job is higher than my job. I just think it's like a sidestep, it's something different. And now you're more in a supportive role. You know, which I think is probably different than how a lot of people think, but I just I wish we would kind of all do that, where we kind of put the teacher, the teacher is so important, and that the pay, the support and the respect are reflected how critical that role is. I

Stacy Hurst: 27:31

think that's another dichotomy in our society. If you asked 10 people, 100 people on the street, what they think of teachers, they will tell you, they're great, they're the best thing, there is a statistic saying 83% of students claim that a teacher boosted their confidence and self esteem. So most people would say teachers are so valuable. And yet, we do not recognize them in any other way. But then with our words by saying that, right? They don't get paid. Well. How do you guys address the summers off accusation?

Lindsay Kemeny: 28:06

Because it's just like, it just makes me mad. I'm like, Look, first of all, my school year goes to here, you know, and then we have you know, this first week, we have a conference of June, okay, we have first week of conference, and then you know, we're starting my district is starting a new program. So you better bet I'm going to be like, reading through that program and trying to figure it out. And then we start the middle of August, but you've got to start going the beginning of August to get your classroom all set up. So I don't know. Oh, that's frustrating.

Stacy Hurst: 28:36

willing not to mention, we are just paid year round. And I'm saying we but I'm not in that position anymore. Yeah. But we are paid year round. It doesn't mean we're getting paid for free. We've already done the work when we're getting paid in the summer, plus 400 hours of overtime. So that isn't an argument that holds up right. Oh, just this spring?

Donell Pons: 29:01

It does. And it brings back a lot of thoughts about Lindsey, you, you made the point about watching really good teachers leave classrooms. And that was always such a sad, tragic thing to watch. Good to see some really great teachers such good energy, great ideas coming into a classroom, and then you just see it quickly. I mean, either it's the first year or second year, but there's just a drain, and you're just hoping you can figure out a way to keep that great teacher in the classroom. And eventually they're gone, you know, third, fourth year, you come back and yep, sure enough, a teacher is no longer there. And you just feel terrible about it. So I think what's interesting is we have a certain tolerance obviously, for things to look this way. And so that's where I always kind of lament is, are we too tolerant of how this looks to ever do anything about it? That's a question.

Stacy Hurst: 29:49

Well, and you know, we've done a few episodes by now on legislation related to literacy specifically. But I remember when I was a literacy coach was the first time I had time in my schedule to actually go to the legislative session and participate. Teachers don't have that time. Although those sessions take place during school, when they are overloaded with things to focus on, let alone have the day to go to Capitol Hill, right? That's a great point. The majority of teachers are between 30 and 49 years old, I think that is fine. If our young teachers are leaving those so early on, I wonder how that age is going to change over time. I also know that some of my most respected teachers, the teachers I've worked with, are the ones who've been teaching for a very long time. And we cannot lose them either. Because we discount all their wisdom, and all of the the things that they've learned about students over their lifetimes, especially if they've stayed in the same grade, right. So when we're talking about what other solutions, we might have to address these issues, and I'm talking, I mean, we're focusing on literacy specifically. But I think and I don't think this is too radical or unique, have an idea. But as an elementary school teacher, you do have multiple subjects you have to teach, we're not just responsible for teaching someone how to read, which is in and of itself, huge, right? That takes a lot of focus and effort and resources, leading social studies, standards, and math standards and science standards, and health standards, including PE, and art, music, dance, all of these things. So I wonder if we shouldn't go to more of a specialist kind of an approach. In elementary schools. For example, when I was teaching first grade, I remember for most of my day, I've said it before, if I'm being honest, I was teaching reading most of the day. But I do remember feeling like oh, I can't wait till I have some time when I can really dive into this book or this research or about literacy and and learn it so I can apply it in my class. But I didn't have time to do that. When I became a literacy coach, it was kind of the opposite of the problem. I was coaching and I had a lot going on. But I had more time to do that. I just wasn't applying it in a classroom setting in the same way. So maybe we specialize What do you think that would look like? It's hard

Lindsay Kemeny: 32:31

because you also, especially in those younger grades need to build relationships with those little students. And it's hard for them if they have too many different teachers, I think, I don't know.

Donell Pons: 32:43

I thought about this too. I kind of toyed with it because you know, English was the subject that I taught, and then obviously tutoring and reading. And I do think that teaching a student to read the reading and writing is unique. And it's so important that I do kind of wonder about maybe a specialization for that. Right? Not that the other subjects aren't equally, they are very important. But it seems to be if we get off on the wrong foot, and we don't give a student what he or she needs, whatever they need. And those early grades in order to be proficient at this particular skill. Nothing makes up for it later on. And so knowing that about it, and knowing that the system is like that education system, I do kind of wonder about the specialist for this particular subject. And

Lindsay Kemeny: 33:31

my old school district, we were responsible for all the likes, some people call them specials. So it's like the PE computers are in music. So we had to do those. And that was a lot. My district now I love because they provide a PE teacher, a computer teacher, an art teacher and a music teacher. And so we get to take our students, you know, they have like one a day, and then we get prep time, which is huge. So I would, you know, I really recommend that and strongly encourage those that are in like decision making roles. To provide that for your teachers, you need to give them some prep time and help take that load off because I just remember that was so I mean, that was so much work to be like okay, now I gotta go do PE and now I got to figure out what we're doing for music and now I gotta you know, that's a lot. So,

Stacy Hurst: 34:27

yeah, that's a great point. Okay, so I want to just really quickly talk about some statistics I found concerning technology trends. So think about how this would relate to teaching reading right. 73% of teachers reported using technology makes the teaching and learning process easier. How do you think that would impact literacy instruction?

Lindsay Kemeny: 34:55

Well, we know that students read a little bit better on print than on a screen Right, there's been some studies on that. So I think we have to be careful in our excitement for technology, we still want our students to have a lot of time in actual books, and writing. And I was really worried during COVID, when it was everything is now online. And then after that, it seemed like people were like, oh, virtual learning is so great. And doing having their students turn in more and more things online. But for those younger grades, pen to paper, pencil to paper, it's like, critical. Well, I

Donell Pons: 35:40

was just thinking, along the same lines, as Lindsey talking about the things that so far, in the end, we haven't done a lot of research, that's to be honest, as well. But we're just a little bit that we have done, we are finding some interesting things. And some of those interesting things as Lindsay was alluding to, or, you know, reading off of a screen retention, that kind of a thing does seem to drop. And Maryanne wolf has done some great research on this and continues to do. And then additionally, the opportunities, you know, that you have to to listen to another person reading, that proximity, that modulation and voice all of those things, you kind of worry about sticking a student on a screen and how they know what happens there. And again, we'll I'm sure we'll have better research as this comes out. But on the flip side, there are probably some students who might do well in that situation, right? Again, are those the same students who would do well in a classroom where the teacher doesn't have all that that teacher needs in terms of being able to teach reading, but they were probably going to take off anyway, they have a lot of what it takes anyway, to get the reading thing down. This is stuff we just don't know enough about. I wouldn't be comfortable, because we don't know enough about it. Say, Hey, yeah, let's move towards that direction. Just because a teacher statistically might say, hey, it makes my job a lot easier. I wonder what that really means?

Stacy Hurst: 36:55

Yeah, so maybe not the learning process for literacy. But what about teaching? How can how can technology help teaching reading? Well,

Lindsay Kemeny: 37:04

you know, I first started teaching back in the days of transparency sheets, you had to like recreate every paper as a transparency and then put it up there on the overhead. So it's a lot nicer now, you know, I have a dot cam, or it's connected to the computer. And, you know, people have done even, you know, like, even with your reading instruction, they have slides, Google Slides or PowerPoint slides that they can go through or How nice for vocabulary, you know, to put up some easily display some pictures, illustrating that vocabulary word or, you know, there's definitely some great tools that we can use now.

Donell Pons: 37:47

And I would say even to add to Lindsey, I think all of that, and that data collection potential right to be able to collect data instantaneously about a concept just taught to see where it's falling for the students and to be able to group from there and then be able to reteach. And if I could have that kind of information fed. And that kind of a help. I know, there's some programs that are doing such work, that would be helpful, I think,

Lindsay Kemeny: 38:10

plus, we have aI now. And so I mean, it's scary and exciting all at once. And you can have aI help you create a class newsletter to send to your parents or to write an email. Or if you want your students to practice reading certain vocabulary words, you can ask AI to give you a passage with whatever those words you want to include. So it's kind of neat the potential there. And that's something I think a lot of us are still learning about and learning how to use.

Stacy Hurst: 38:43

Yeah, I was thinking about that specifically, as well as the data collection. And even on the school level, right? Someone like a literacy coach who's watching that data all the time. If you have good information, you can make good decisions. So no

Lindsay Kemeny: 38:58

nice doing Yeah, doing assessments like on an iPad, you know, I use a cadence which is wonderful that for that it's free. But if you pay for it, then you can have like the data system that you can use on the iPad and do all the testing. When I taught kindergarten, I loved you using ESGI. And I would do it for alphabet letters. So I would have my iPad, it would display the alphabet, whether I'm teaching their name or sound, and then I just click yes or no. And after we go through it, you know one on one for the student, it would give me these great graphs. It would generate a parent letter and it would in the letter, it would tell all the parents the letters they missed or give little flashcards of the ones they missed. I mean, it was so helpful.

Stacy Hurst: 39:38

Yeah, that sounds great. And that goes along with 96% of teachers believe that technology has positively impacted student participation. So in an activity like that, maybe students are more likely to engage. Okay, game based learning is expected to grow by 9 billion From 2020 to 2025, is there a space for game based learning and literacy?

Lindsay Kemeny: 40:06

Yes, as a way to practice after you've already explicitly taught the concept,

Donell Pons: 40:11

reinforce, and I'm really hoping that we figure out a way to, and somebody gets interested in. So they really want to develop a way to get students more interested into a story that isn't just all visual, but also a reading component. And I think that we haven't yet tapped, what potentially we could do it with this in this view, and and I would love to see where it's iterative. So a student could be participating in the writing of once they're engaged with, I think there's a lot of room there, where potentially, we could see maybe some products being produced that really do accelerate and advance our reading and our desire even right to move us from reading to writing. I'd love to see work in that.

Stacy Hurst: 40:56

Yeah, and I think for me, it just illustrates the importance of literacy, because you have to have a minimal amount of literacy to engage in those kinds of platforms.

Lindsay Kemeny: 41:05

Because just important to remember, like, it's so great to gamify things, but don't have it be more gaming than learning, you know, keep learning at the forefront.

Stacy Hurst: 41:16

Yeah, I love that. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you in a second, if there are any statistics, you would like to know, anything you want to know, statistics and numbers on that maybe we don't know, we haven't read or seen. But I did want to point out one more statistics, as we were talking about the impact that teachers have, not only on individuals, most people say that teachers have or have impacted their lives in a positive way, on society. But here is one that has an impact economically $250,000 Is the dollar amount, a good teacher is estimated to boost their classes expected lifetime income by so that's not nothing, I mean,$250,000, depending on what state you're in, will buy you half a house. But that's significant, right economically, and just think what teachers could do if they had more resources. So another really positive statistic is 3000. And that is the number of students, the average teacher will positively impact throughout their career, the average time people have in the classroom is 15 years. So in 15 years, 3000 students, whether that's directly or indirectly, that's powerful. Any responses to that?

Lindsay Kemeny: 42:50

I mean, that's just exciting, I think, wow, that we could potentially impact that many students.

Donell Pons: 42:57

And it makes me think of a phrase that's become fairly common that I hear from my older students, adult students. And if they'll say it, and it's pretty much the same. If it's not exactly the same words, it's pretty close. But after we've had maybe six months, so that they're really making progress, they're finally seeing that I can really do this. And inevitably, they will say, one of them will say, Where were you? When I was a kid, I could have done such great things if I'd have had you as my teacher. So that really lets you know that if you're a teacher right now, in a classroom, think of that young student, as an adult, who would love to come back and find you and say, Wow, because of you, I was able to do all of these things. I

Stacy Hurst: 43:46

love that. And if you're a parent of a student in those grade levels, you can notice these things. Even though your first grader may not even remember his first grade here. But if we've taught him the one thing he can't unlearn, which is reading, then we've done our job, right. And it is very rewarding. It's fulfilling in that way, when we're not overtaxed with all of the other things that we've been talking about with these statistics. Okay, any statistics for future research that you wish we knew right now that we don't? Well, I

Lindsay Kemeny: 44:26

would be curious to know how many teachers what percentage of teachers are confident with the reading instruction? I would be interested to know that and then also, you know, we talked so much about the science of reading, but there are still a lot of people who are kind of actively pushing back. And so I would be curious to know the percentages of how many teachers are feel like they are aligning their instruction with the science of reading and how many, you know are not and I guess whether that's purposely not or just maybe aren't aware of it.

Stacy Hurst: 45:03

Yeah, good things to know. Donell. And

Donell Pons: 45:06

I think I probably along the same lines as Lindsey, all this energy and effort that has been put towards improving our understanding of how reading is taught. I'm hoping that statistically, we do see things change that we see us go on and up, and we rise and more more students, we get to majority of students are receiving the correct instruction, and succeeding at this reading and writing. I would love to see that. I don't know. I mean, there's just so many factors that go into it, Lindsey, just making the point of so how many teachers are really applying? How many are pushing back still, all of these things were just so unsure of. Statistically, I would love to see that though, that in 10 years, things look totally different. I would love that.

Stacy Hurst: 45:52

Yeah, I would love for us to be able to identify and quantify what makes the difference in implementation. So what is the link between teacher knowledge and student outcomes? What makes the difference in that space? We have a lot of legislation around literacy. And so I'm curious to see statistics regarding that going forward, like you were saying Donell, and then the number of teachers who not only feel confident in their reading instruction, but also are getting their results, meaning students can read and not just pass the test, they can read for life, that they're set up. So making those connections would be fantastic. And it wouldn't hurt if in the meantime, we had the same episode in five years. And we were talking about teachers got double the salary and have to pay for their materials anymore. Or even their advanced education. Right.

Lindsay Kemeny: 46:53

And then they don't need side

Stacy Hurst: 46:54

jobs. Yes. And then there'll be more availability in the job market for people like teenagers who could be working. Yeah, it's unfortunate, but I do you know, teachers who work at Walmart at night, they teach you today and work at Walmart at night. We got to we got to stop that guys. We just have to. Anyway, it's a tricky episode to end because really, we were dealing with numbers and interpreting those didn't turn out to be so positive. But do you know what I think we can focus on? Yeah, the 3000. And the things you can't quantify, right? The things that really are fulfilling, as we're impacting the future, in more ways than salaries, and probably more important ways than salaries, right? So thank you to all of our fellow educators who are out there doing the thing and just keep doing it. If there's anything we can do to support you or highlight something you feel like needs to be highlighted, let us know. And we hope that you will join us that being said on our next episode of Literacy Talks.

Narrator: 48:03

Thanks for joining us today for Literacy Talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. We invite you to join the science of reading collective, our free community and resource hub so you can stay current with new ideas, free webinars, resources and more. And be sure to visit literacy talks online for resources, access to every season's episodes and more at readinghorizons.com/literacytalks. It's an exciting time to teach reading and ensure your students reach grade level proficiency this school year. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time