Ep. 71: Governance and the practice of holiness

An award-winning author and longtime pastor's wife, Karen Stiller admits to a struggle with the concept of holiness. In her new book, Holiness Here: Searching for God in the Ordinary Events of Everyday Life , Stiller addresses the everyday tension between what we want to do and where we are in a book that could be used devotionally or in a seminary classroom. As a board member of a theological school, Stiller also reflects on what makes governance holy. The book can be found here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:03

Hello and welcome to the Intra Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. With me today is Karen Stiller. She is an award-winning Canadian author, writer, and editor whose work has been widely seen in many well-known publications. In our corner of the world, she has been a longtime and valued contributor as a writer and editor for Intrust magazine and the Intrust Center. She's also served on and currently serves on the board of Regent College, so she's familiar with governance work. She's the senior editor of the Canadian magazine Faith Today and hosts the Faith Today podcast. She holds a Master of Fine Arts in Creative Nonfiction. She's written a book about being a pastor's wife, and her latest book is on holiness. It's called Holiness Searching for God in the Ordinary Events of Everyday Life. Karen, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10

Thank you, Matt. I'm very happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13

Well, it's a pleasure to have you. And I've got to start with this. It's it's now I have the Kindle version of your book, so I don't get the back cover. I had to look this up, but I saw it on one of the blurbs and I love this. It's on the back cover. It says about the book. These days, brokenness feels more comfortable to discuss than holiness. It's easier to say that we are messy than holy. It's easier to say that healing is a long way off. To say that we are holy seems one step away from holier than thou, and no one ever wants to be that. There's a great summation of that, of I think what's in the book. Um, I said this before I hit the record button. I really enjoyed the book, loved the book. I'm not sure, as I said, how to use it because I think you can use it in a variety of ways. There's a personal devotional aspect, it's a great read as a personal journey for you in seeing your own sense of how you've come to this. I could see it in a practical theology class in a seminary or Bible college. I could see it in a hard theology class of somebody saying, Here's how you might apply all the big seminary terms. I could even see a board of governors working through this together to try to get themselves wrapped around this idea of what they do. Is it holy? Is it not holy? Tell me how you see the book. What is you want?

SPEAKER_01: 2:39

Um, so as I was writing it, I was also trying to figure out uh what I was writing, although holding it loosely and lightly, because I think that's you know the best approach for a writer to take. Right. Um, and so I had given some initial draft parts of it to a fellow writer who said, Oh, yeah, this is a spiritual formation book. And that was actually really helpful for me in a good, a good frame. But um, I my biggest hope is that people would view the book or use the book as an invitation to be very honest about you know their questions, their doubts, their struggles, and then, you know, move in greater confidence to who God has said they are and who God has said we are as his beloved, that we would, you know, shed the shame that sometimes we feel when we talk about topics like this, and just view holiness as an invitation. So I love the idea of it being used in different contexts. Um, but let me say I've I've recently returned from some Regent board meetings and they kindly held a little uh book launch for me at the through the Regent Bookstore, which is you know world famous for the people who love Regent, they love the bookstore. So it was very exciting. But after that, we had our board meetings and we were talking about some faculty publishing work. And you may know this term, I had never heard this before. And I was a little I was a little shocked. They talked about top shelf books and bottom shelf books. Do you know this term, Matt? Mm-hmm. Go ahead. Tell me, tell me what you learned about that. Well, I immediately thought of a bar, and what I've heard is that the best bottles are on the top shelf, right? And um, the bottles that everyone else sort of can't afford and drink from, but the the masses are on the bottom shelf. So I'm assuming that that's what they meant, and you know, popular versus academic. And right, no, I I didn't do this, but I almost put up my hand and said, Well, I just had a bottom shelf book launch, you know, out in the uh out in the atrium there. What are we all thinking? But it was really interesting for me to get to think about that because I it's not an academic book, but I did do a lot of reading and I did do a lot of considering, and I am hoping um that holiness here can be um, you know, one voice in a big, long ancient conversation about what it means to lead a holy life.

SPEAKER_02: 5:15

Well, let's talk a little bit about board service, because one of the things to me in this work, in terms of what the intrust center does, is some people see the governance piece as incredibly invigorating and interesting, and others see it as incredibly boring or mind-numbing, or having served on staff of a few colleges and universities, I'll tell you it was kind of like a necessary thing to do. Nobody was quite sure what boards did. Uh right, the public colleges were interesting because you could all watch that. But the the point when I read your book, and and I've gone through it a few times now, is you say you talk about how in your understanding of scripture, we're made to live holy and that God calls us to holiness. Um and yet you have a governing board meeting that can often be mundane details and financial reports and and whether top shelf books, bottom shelf books, and who's getting faculty appointments. How do you see board work as a piece of holiness?

SPEAKER_01: 6:26

Yeah, that is such a good, rich question. So um, let me say uh that for example, for me, as when I was invited to let my name stand to serve on the regent board, I uh it tapped into my deep love for a place that was formative in our lives. So my husband was a Master of Divinity graduate from Regent uh when we were there, and that would have been the you know early to mid-90s. I had the opportunity to work there. So I was admissions officer. So um, so first of all, so that's the first part of my answer to you that the seminary experience is so deeply or can be so deeply formative for the students who have you know the privilege of maybe attending on person in person and maybe now it's online, but just to have the opportunity to take time apart to study and reflect and dig deep and be changed and make lifelong friendships. So it is and should be and is a holy place, these seminaries that we have created and that we love and that we're nurturing. So so that's sort of the big answer, I think, is that we we love or we hopefully love pardon me, these wonderful places. And so to serve them and to help them be healthy and help them be as best as they can in this really challenging moment is absolutely a way for us to live out of our holiness. And and then going way down to the um the bottom shelf of board service is like how we listen to each other because I pay attention to that, maybe because like you, I'm you know, I've got that journalist part of me, but I I really pay attention to how people speak and how they listen. More importantly, um, how much space is given to women on the board often were you know not as plentiful as the men and um in number. And so how board members serve one another while they're serving the seminary is very interesting to me too. And it's a it's a chance to work together in a really creative and collaborative way, um, which for me aligns with how I am as a writer, how I am as an editor, and just and I do explore this in holiness here, how we how the making of things is reflective of God as maker, and that we have the opportunity, you know, to make something beautiful together. So I think that that helps me think of board service um in a in a holy way. Um, there is the setting aside of one's uh, you know, maybe pet passions or for the service of the greater good. You know, the path of holiness often involves some sacrifice. So yeah, there's that.

SPEAKER_02: 9:28

Well, you mentioned in in certainly your book talks about this, part of your reflection on holiness comes out of your experience. Your life, you how you have reflected. Uh there's um uh I don't want to give any spoilers. I think people ought to read the book themselves. We'll put a link to the book in uh on the podcast page, intrus.org slash podcast. Um you have some very rich details, you know, of reflecting on life, because part of this comes in the context of your husband's passing.

SPEAKER_01: 10:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 10:04

But you just one of the things you just said that is is it comes out of your own holiness or your own sense of it, your own personal nature. You mentioned being a female voice on a board, a former staffer of of a school. That's a rare voice on a board. Not just a former employee or faculty member, but to be a staffer, um, to have your husband graduated from there, uh, the alma modic piece, uh, the sense of service to that, but not just service, is as you said, I thought you said that very well about the sense of of trying to maintain what you all found is a very rich space, but also bringing the different voices of who you are a writer, uh, a journalist, uh woman, uh somebody who's worked there, somebody who was enriched by being in that place.

SPEAKER_00: 10:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 11:00

Tell me a little bit about that, the voices that you bring and how that uh shapes the space.

SPEAKER_01: 11:07

That's really good. Uh I I'm gonna share also that this is my second seminary board experience.

SPEAKER_02: 11:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 11:16

Um, so but my first time on the region board. And the first time I served on the board of a seminary, I was younger um and you know bewildered and not confident, and there were even fewer women, and I do not bring wealth to a board. I am definitely aware that I am being invited um because of my experience or my um, you know, and even I think my in trust experience is of great value to the region board, actually. Like I I, you know, I mention that, I share what I'm learning through interviewing other schools. I don't want anyone to think I'm giving away their secrets. I'm not. But this bird's eye view we get to have through our work with in trust um that gives us a sense of what's happening with theological education across North America. So I have um more confidence now on the Regent Board because of that too. Um, but I so my first experience, I was more uh intimidated. And for the Regent Um board experience, my intimidation arc was shorter. I it took me a shorter time to find my voice. Um, and that is because of, I don't know, maybe my age and the fact that I I uh I believe people, I think, well, you asked me, and so I believe that you want me here, and therefore I think I am serving you the best when I uh step into it as fully as I can. And I've actually learned that from being a writer, um, where uh and being a communications, you know, staff person, where I may have a very personal or you know, I feel strongly we should do it this way, but they've decided to do it another way, and I'm okay with that. Like I've said as truthfully and fully as I can what I think is the best way, and and now I, you know, submit to the process or whatever. So I think all of that uh has given me confidence that I I can speak with the knowledge and experience that I have that I think is relevant and and that I'm okay to let people disagree. It's fine. I really believe in the power of working together in a group. I love a group working experience. I mean, I don't love every minute of it. Sometimes I want to put up my hand and say, you know, Mr. Board, can we get up and, you know, move around for a minute, like, or go for a walk outside for 10 minutes? Because man, those meetings can get long. Um, but yeah, so I I think um I I no longer remember your question, but I think what's really important as board people is that we show up as fully as we can and we offer what we have been asked and invited to offer, and that we play well with each other.

SPEAKER_02: 14:19

Well, I know you when you uh entered that space, you told me about the the um the onboarding and how they you felt that it was really a positive experience the way they did that. One of the things you mentioned is um, and I should note here as a professional writer, writers don't make a lot of money. So anybody who invites us to the space, and I've been on nonprofit boards, and I'm like, well, that's a fundraiser, that's a fundraiser, there's somebody with a lot of money. I have no clue what I'm doing here, I just have absolutely no clue. I mean, they they want me because something that's not always made clear.

SPEAKER_01: 14:58

Yes. You know, I think that's true.

SPEAKER_02: 15:01

I think sometimes um, and and I think there are two sides of this. Sometimes you get on a board and you think it's people think it's an honorific or they bring, you know, money or or like on theological school boards, you'll see a bishop or a you know, somebody in a church role gets put on it, obviously, for the connection. You know, you're coming at this in a different way. Now, the the and that's there's a two sides. It's that can be a good thing in that you're you're bringing the whole person. The other side is you can feel pigeonholed as I'm the I'm just I'm just this person, you know, I'm the whatever, the West Coast representative, I'm the certain, you know, the the female voice or whatever. Um how have you felt welcomed in that? I mean, it because it sounds like you're you write with confidence, we've known each other a while, you have a confidence, but those spaces are intimidating.

SPEAKER_01: 16:01

They really are. I and I think what I have learned to do is uh listen first, you know, spend the spend the first few times, if you know, whatever it is, listening, listening and you know, taking up taking the cues of others, seeing how other people are acting. And you know, maybe there's like a finding your place. Maybe that happens in a pack where you, you know, find your your place. Um, but then again, for me, it really uh comes down to trusting that they know what they're doing. So, and professionally I had that that learning when I for a while I hosted um sort of moderate, it was the term, but for me, I was a host, these religion and society dialogues at Wycliffe College, a seminary in Toronto. And uh so I was on the stage with really right, brilliant people, and I could barely understand what they were talking about, even though I prepared, you know, I prepared. Um, but so I every time I would say to my friends at Wycliffe, I just want to confirm you're asking me to do this because you know that I'm gonna ask like questions that other people would have that I'm just bringing the ordinary person approach, and that's what you want, right? You're not expecting that I understand how artificial intelligence is gonna do this or that, or you know, and they're like, Yeah, we just want you to be, we just want you to be yourself. So I'm and every time I said, Okay, I'm I'm believing you, I want you to know I believe you. And it was kind of a threat. Um, but that's where I sort of thought, okay, I'm gonna you asked me, I'm gonna show up. And that's how I feel on the board too. You asked me, I'm gonna show up. And as I practice being there, I do gain confidence because I think, yeah, I my husband graduated from here, I worked here, uh, you know, we're we're part of this community. I am a professional in this field that I do think is relevant, you know. Plus, I I bring all the interest goodies, and that's really helpful.

SPEAKER_02: 18:14

Well, one of one of the themes I started to pick up in your book, uh, and you've got some great lines throughout. You you're very clear, direct writer. There's a loveliness, I think, in your directness. Um, but you put it clear early in the book. You say holiness has a public relations problem, even within the church. You know, it's so you say it's so you put it this way, it's so deeply associated in our culture with being a pain in the butt rather than a balm to the soul. Uh I think in in you this these themes kind of rise up in the book. One of those is this sense that maybe you're in a place in time for a purpose.

SPEAKER_01: 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:02

Right. So you mentioned all that you bring to the board, you know, whether it's the the understanding of the field from your work within trust, uh the magazine, whether it's the the work you've done with the intrust center, your your past experience and all that. Um you mentioned a group project too, you know, that the board work is really a group project with some of us associate with bad things from school, right? Yeah. Person who didn't do the work or didn't show up. Um but tell me about how you see your presence as being holy.

SPEAKER_01: 19:37

You know, I think um I think that oh as you were speaking, Matt, I was thinking about the chapter about humility, um, which is so much a part of holiness, about uh you know, accepting who we are as people on a journey and that um we can learn and that this is not about being perfect ever. uh and that there's such a beautiful grace in humility. And also what humility allows us to do is make mistakes and admit we're wrong and um change our minds and get out of our own way and get out of the way of other people. And I think knowing that that is available to us can actually help us be more confident, you know, that it's okay I can risk saying this thing or suggesting this idea because it's okay if it's silly. You know and it's okay if it's not the right fit. I'm I I am not going to be crushed or humiliated because you know because of humility and because of holiness and because of a sense of our own belovedness. So I think um and when I think about the sort of holiness PR problem uh it we associate holiness with a set of rules and I really want it to experiment or not that I'm you know bringing this whole new thing but that it could be viewed as an invitation and that it might look different in in different lives. And um but the impulse is about accepting our belovedness from God and then living out of that relationally with other people. And so you know I live in the heart of um downtown my neighbors are different than your neighbors maybe and they may pull something more or different out of me than your neighbors require of you and how we love our neighbors you know in practical ways for example so um yeah I think holiness can be an adventure instead of a big awful boring you know um list of to-dos and don'ts right exactly exactly well I think you pull that out the the book itself again I don't I want people to go read it and come to their own own view of it but you take the you take the reader on a journey wrapped around your journey through various aspects I mean you mention humility there's a chapter on the body there's a chapter on various parts of which holiness may be expressed yeah um and in in through that you know I mean you in humility you mention you know that that sometimes you say sometimes we learn humility because we seek it more often it finds us sitting around thinking we are a little bit fabulous um which is a wonderful line probably shouldn't laugh at my own it's writing well it's a great line it's and and there's truth it's not very humble of me.

SPEAKER_02: 22:57

Well it's it's um you know it again remember in the Bible Moses supposedly wrote that he was the most humble person on the planet at the time so there's there's something to be said for that but it's a great line I think that um as we think about that because whether it's in board service or whether in your daily work you're an accomplished journalist and writer and a communication professional there's a it's it's one thing to be humble if you're 22 or 23 starting the business.

SPEAKER_01: 23:29

It's another 30 years later yeah there's attention I that that's right and I my um the way I view it I think is that knowing what you're good at is not not humility because I know all the things I'm not good at. I'm very aware of the way I can fit into you know a a more complete picture of you know working with other people and and knowing that I may be you know a good writer that that is what I'm good at that's what I've poured myself into that's my the craft I have worked hard at over the years means that I don't I don't have to I mean we're talking about it here on purpose but if I'm in a room full of people I can let other people shine I don't need to prove myself I don't need to be the writer who talks the most about writing in a room full of writers you know I can step aside and I think that's a beautiful warm confident and humble place to operate out of I think well it's well said there's a there's a confidence I think in you know when we talked about board service there's a confidence in bringing yourself your honest real self yeah into a space yeah I really think we can assume that if we're asked to show up that they want us to show up yeah yeah and we'll find uh quickly if that's not the case that is true um in and one of one of the things I appreciate in the in the book is that you bring your whole self and in one of those self is you know you've been in ministry um you've done ministry work uh your husband was a pastor yeah um part of the work he did was caring for other clergy which is vital vital work um but as as you were writing this right this book was in process um so you is as I understand you were you were in process in this book when he got ill and died correct yeah how did that go ahead no no I was just gonna say I was eight chapters written and then I stopped for a while so um it and it doesn't read that way the book doesn't read that it was stopped I mean obviously the the experience you had certainly informs this uh but tell me a little bit about how that because because Brent's passing was untimely uh and and quick it we it's it's um tragic yeah and you're writing a book about holiness and you write about this in the book there's some beautiful uh scenes of of um where you were about the some some moments in the hospital uh that I'm gonna try not to tear up on here.

SPEAKER_02: 26:54

Um thank you there was a holiness in that uh and again I'm I'm gonna encourage people to read the book in and to read the scenes because there was um I think some very care sense of of how you felt God moving through those situations.

SPEAKER_01: 27:14

Yeah thank you for uh inviting me to share about that so uh right it was fast and you know unexpected result of a kidney transplant that we thought was successful and a new lease on life uh he was 59 when he died and um so after you know the dust settled ish whatever that means um my agent got back in touch with me and said you know if if you can finish it by this certain date we can you know get back on track in terms of the publication in spring 2024 and so it was just like an invitation no pressure and so I decided to uh try and the work was good for me um it was good to have something to do a couple mornings a week and uh a focus it reminded me that I'm a writer you know I I I I you know the the axis of my world shifted had shifted and um I you know I this wasn't such a big deal for me but I've I'm I'm in this pastor's wife widow group uh on Facebook and for a lot of women who are fully fully fully immersed with their husband and it's like a partner ministry they lose their identity too like as a pastor's wife I I have always had my own vocational path and so that was less of a thing for me but church radically changed for me um like it's just so painful. Um so a lot had changed and so my identity and calling as a writer became really important for me to just keep leaning into that and moving out of that. And part of what I also had to do is I went back through the manuscript and asked myself do I still believe this? Can I still say this? You know, am I still confident in this? And then what am I going to do now? And I made the decision to write a chapter called Sorrow because I am such an honest writer like I really try to be and I think there's value in that. So to not write about his death would have felt like a lie to me when it happened during the writing of the book. But I was very careful to keep the lens tightly in on as much as I could the theme of holiness because I knew that I didn't know what I didn't know yet. You know I know there's so many lessons in grief and um so many changes still to come in my life I didn't want to say too much. You know I wanted to keep it very tightly and also honor honor my husband and protect my children all those things. So I was very careful um I tried to be very careful and uh but in the end I'm I'm happy with that chapter. Like I I feel like it honored my family and that was the most important thing for me. And yeah I was just working hard to try to find that theme of holiness in that the honesty's clear in the book.

SPEAKER_02: 30:34

I I think you know even even in that um without being you know there was there's no overshare of I've lost the word but there's no it's not a look a sense of look at me. It's a sense that you dealt with it and one of the things that uh I appreciate you wrote in this is you know you have this eternal your faith comes clear in this your your sense of you know struggle how do you be holy in a world like this right um but you you have a line later in the book and you notice the real struggle with it because I think part of your the in the book you're dealing with sorrow and great grief and unexpected loss as you try to write about and think about holiness. And as you do that you say um you notice you you mentioned we will spend eternity with people that we wouldn't choose to go bowling with say church can be a thorn in our side and a pain in our behind it is also a balm and a beauty.

SPEAKER_01: 31:44

A lot happens at church you know even though the struggle of you know having been the pastor's wife having been involved in ministry the loss and grieving of that as we wrap up I'm I'm wondering in that tension you know of hope and happiness on one side and and the the suffering and the struggle and the grief um as you look back on this are there other things you say you know this is either move for me change for me or this is how holiness moved through that part of pardon me why I wrote the book um and why I've always been interested in this topic I think is because of my life as a pastor's wife where I was very aware that people thought we were much, much holier than we actually were you know people think you have it all together and that and and that adds to the sort of isolation actually of ministry life um where they don't feel that you can relate to them or that they can't be fully themselves around you sometimes because they think you're gonna judge them or rebuke them. You're on a pedestal you're on a pedestal exactly supposed to be holy you're always supposed to be smiling and yeah exactly so I've always I've always been interested in that gap because for me that gap was a lonely painful place usually and so like why do people think that and what how can we bridge that and how or but you know you are a priest like you have been ordained you have said you're gonna lead a holy life like ah so confusing. So I really have always wondered about that and so that was the push for me like one of the things one of the reasons why I wanted to explore holiness and try to you know understand it better. And so so there's that and then like just so this Sunday I went to church. I haven't been for a while again because I I I'm I I do a cost benefit analysis. Okay I'm gonna go and I'm gonna cry and then I'm gonna feel really like it might put me in a pit for a few days and is it worth it? Like that's how I am and we're as we record this we're a year and sort of three months out and that's just still my experience with church because of course there's a replacement there now and I love him and I love his wife and family but I am deeply reminded of my loss when I go there and and I'm immersed in it again. That's where the funeral was all those things. Anyway I slipped in three quarters of the way through the service because I wanted to receive communion and I thought this is how I can be this Sunday oh my goodness I was so loved. When I walked in that door I don't know it was just especially awesome this Sunday like right away you know hugs warm hugs um a a friend came up and said welcome home this young woman came up and just like she hugged me for so long that she was it moved from hug to being held it's like I am being held by this young woman 20 something and then she whispered in my ear I'm reading your book I feel like I know you I feel like you know me and I was just like oh my goodness I'm so glad I came I am I don't know when I can come again I left sad and I you know had a hard day the rest of the day but the beauty I I was reminded once again of exactly what you kind of just read like it is a bomb we are there to love one another like this should be you know ground zero of love and and I did feel that on Sunday and that is you know church at its best and church at its best makes up for church at its worst in my opinion so I do I yeah I love the church even when it drives me crazy that's a good place to to wrap up is there anything I've missed Karen that I should have asked oh that's a good question too um no I don't think so I think we I think we've had a lovely conversation I'm really glad we talked about board stuff I think that is so hopefully relevant to people who might listen and and it's a reminder that we are holy we are holy and we get to be be holy and do holy in every corner of our lives even after an eight hour board meeting when they should have had us move around Karen it's always a pleasure to talk to you thank you for this uh this wonderful book that you've written as I said uh the link will be in the uh on the podcast page there's again the way the people can use this book you've written questions for a study group at the end um I think it's a there's a number of ways people could use it uh grateful for your addition to um to the field in this uh as a a spiritual book and for your willingness to share your journey uh both in the book here and and of course always grateful for your work for the Intrust Center.

SPEAKER_02: 37:19

Matt thank you so much thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast for more information about this podcast other episodes and additional resources visit intrust.org