Ep. 72: Rooted in Hope - How the Pathways project is growing

The Pathways for Tomorrow Initiative was designed by Lilly Endowment Inc. to create  ways for theological schools in North America to train ministers for Christian churches. The Rev. Dr. Jo Ann Deasy, director of institutional initiatives of the Association of Theological Schools, and Amy Kardash, president of the In Trust Center for Theological Schools, discuss key findings and themes. ATS and the In Trust Center are co-coordinating the initiative. Learn more at:

• ATS' Pathways page.
• A project directory.
• The In Trust Center's page, which includes stories, webinars, podcasts, and more.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:03

Hello, and welcome to the Interest Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. This is being recorded in June 2024, right after the biennial meeting of the Association of Theological Schools, which kicked off with the meeting of grantees in the Lilly Endowment's Pathways for Tomorrow initiative. The meeting brought together over 300 representatives of more than 100 theological schools across North America. The program is being coordinated by ATS in conjunction with the Intrust Center for Theological Schools. So with me today are two people who've been on the podcast many times. First is the Reverend Dr. Joanne DC, the Director of Institutional Initiatives. She oversees the Pathways for Tomorrow coordination program for ATS. Joanne, welcome back to the podcast. Great to be here, Matt. Thank you. And of course, Amy Kardash, no stranger in this space, the president of the Intras Center. Amy, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14

Thanks, Matt. Good to be back.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17

We are now at the halfway point of the life cycle of the Pathways for Tomorrow initiative. The original RFP called for projects of up to five years. There are some three and four-year grants, but most of them reasonably are five-year programs. They were meant to increase pathways for education to people to get them into Christian ministry and church ministry. Joanne, I'd like to start with you. In terms of the life cycle of the grant and where we're at, again, halfway point, we're seeing some things in progress. I think the last time the three of us had this conversation on the podcast was in a very different space. And it was a very energizing meeting. The pathways meeting was fantastic. There were a lot of great presentations, discussions happening all over. But in terms of the life cycle of this, the halfway point, what are we seeing? What do you expect that we'll see?

SPEAKER_01: 2:16

Yeah, we were uh looking at statistics right before we went to the gathering and and noticed that just about 16 of the schools of the over 121 grants, 16 of them ending at the end of this year somehow, and another 18 next year. So um I think what we notice mostly is that at the halfway point, we have some grants that's took off running and and are well into their grants. In fact, they're trying to figure out how to um how to sort of finalize and figure out the final pivots for their grants. And then what I found is conversations with a lot of people that took almost two years to ramp up everything that they were doing with their grants, right? Um, and so we have people at a lot of different places, but uh overall, what I found for this gathering, right? This is the first time where um most of the hiring is done. Most of the people are in place. Um, most of them are seeing at least one year completed of whatever programs they were launching, and so they're getting a really good sense of where the programs are effective and where there might be need for growth or capacity building for the work that they're doing. Um, so really excited to see uh everything finally getting underway. Um, and uh when I was reading reports from last year, we saw that in sort of a slowing down of hiring of project directors, but an increase in hiring of faculty, um, an increase in uh hiring of consultants, um, uh increase in attention to faculty development, which has been sort of comes after they launched these new programs and then realized how faculty need to be equipped, uh, maybe in more ways than they expected to support these programs. And so um, so that's been real exciting to see people getting to that space. Um, and I guess the one other thing is I I'm pleased that the coordination program has been helping them think about sustainability from the beginning. For those schools that are really at the halfway point, that has been encouraging because they're like, oh, we've been thinking about it all along. We're ready, we're moving towards that. Um, but for the few schools that are supposed to be ending this year or next year, that you can hear the sort of anxiety of sustainability rising. But um, but people feel good, like they're thinking about these uh in uh more longer term ways, which means they're looking at organizational and financial structures from the very beginning. And so it's exciting to see some of that integrated already uh into these programs.

SPEAKER_02: 5:09

Yeah, it's uh it's an interesting place to be because it's been clear that part of this has been that what the the endowment has wanted is to see some sustainability efforts, some sort of thinking processing. And and that's one of the themes I think that popped up. Amy, at the conference, you did a very nice summary at the end of the day um to talk about themes that were popping up through any number of conversations. Um talk to me a little bit about what you saw. What are the things that are bubbling up through this? And and granted, that's in some ways almost an unfair question given that the vast array of projects, but what are some of the things that stood out to you?

SPEAKER_00: 5:54

Yeah, thanks, Matt. Um you know, I think that part of the construct of the event kind of naturally provided these um spaces when we were talking about um forming and equipping ministers and thriving communities. There were these sort of um specific areas where we could kind of hear from grantees, and then of course in the peer learning sessions. And um, I think that uh one thing that I mentioned is there was a lot of energy and enthusiasm, right? And encouragement in the room. And I thought that that was that was just wonderful um to experience throughout the day. And I think to pick up on what Joanne was talking about, there was this sense of so many being in the middle place of the grant.

SPEAKER_01: 6:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 6:43

Um, and so, you know, no no longer in the beginning, but also a sense of being able to um talk about what was working and maybe what wasn't. Um, and the sense of um, and this came up in multiple places, the sense of what do we need to let go of? So um in sort of that um language about um pruning, you know, what do we need to prune? But in other places, it was a sense of we're not good at letting go of things, you know, we are good at adding, um, but there are capacity issues that schools are are sensing. And many of the pathway schools are also schools that have other grants, right? They're they've been blessed with a number of different grant opportunities, but that's pulling them in different ways. And so identifying where do we have capacity, where do we put our resources, and what do we need to let go of? And I got the sense for some, it's even assessing how are we defining success in this? Um, and if we're looking at particular metrics, maybe we define success in a particular way, but when we're looking at financial viability, do those metrics even make sense? So although I don't think I heard a lot of grantees talking about assessment, I know we've talked about kind of thinking about year three and four as this opportunity to really dig into that assessment space, how are programs being assessed? So that was kind of coming up along some of the edges. So I think just a couple of other things I'll name is um there was this sense of tension between the need to change, you know, and the need to pivot and redirect, um, and also to progress and go forward. There was a sense from a lot of grantees who were forming um partnerships and collaborating with others that there are a lot of um maybe previously unnamed challenges in that space. Um, that came up in a lot of different ways. It came up in how do we engage in partnerships and build trust? It came up around the issue of power. What power do we have? What power does a partner have? And how are we interpreting that? How are we um investing in relationship building? Um, I think that came out in a lot of different spaces. Um, you know, how are people navigating that? Leadership transitions were a topic that came up in how are we tending seeds that others have planted? Um, you know, how are we living into someone else's vision of a project? Um, and also how are how are leaders being oriented into the pathways for tomorrow space? Um and maybe the last thing I'll say is um I heard this in a few places in different ways, this sense of um these projects were meant to bring about kind of creative opportunities or creative responses to the field, but that in that creativity, we've unearthed some obstacles that we may not have previously named. So I think that grantees are trying to navigate that um as well. So maybe those are the highlights. Uh, there's there's obviously way more that we could talk about that came out of some um thematic workshops and uh facilitated conversations as well.

SPEAKER_02: 10:21

Yeah, I appreciate that. Uh, there there are there are plenty of other things that certainly could have bubbled up, but but one of the things I think as we look at this halfway point is one of the things that Lily and Delma talked about when it launched this, there there was this undercurrent, and we and the three of us have had this conversation about the issue of transformation in the field. This was giving some people space to actually take a look at things that they might not have had the time to do before. It gave them a bit of margin. Um, now I think we've all talked about how sometimes you think a million dollars is a lot of money until you actually have to use it, and that might change your perspective. But the the whether it was a million dollar grant or five million dollar grant, there was a sense of of giving schools some margin to try and to think. And I'm wondering now as as we talk about that, this is hard work to transform, but in the field, as you look at this, and I and I thought there was the interesting thing about having pathways first was it moved right into the biennial and it it felt like a natural flow from project directors to and deans and some presidents to the the broader field of how there was there was a sense of energy of some possibility. There it sounded, you know, and Amy and the things that you talked about, there's certainly places where I don't know that we would have had this conversation a few years ago without this. Uh Joanne, let me start with you. In terms of the high-level view, the 40,000-foot view, what are you saying in terms of if am I right there? Is it are you seeing that the margin is helping people start to transform or start to engage in those conversations in ways that they might not have been able to?

SPEAKER_01: 12:16

Yeah, I I would say certainly it is it it is making space for those that are most creative at our schools, right? That that they're at quite a few schools really space to try things. I think the the tension that some of the projects are facing is where that creativity is situated. So um for some, they still are situated around the margins, which gives them lots of freedom, a lot of time to try new things, very exciting, but then they have to do that hard work of integrating it back into the institution and and facing the the challenge of moving it into a space that maybe isn't as free, or to try to engage faculty who have had to do the day-to-day work of the institution and now are trying to take on this new creative space. Um, so some are out there, some are at the very heart of the institution, which means that it's been hard work from the beginning. I think one of the things that I heard was uh, and we had one plenary that was about thriving and change, and what they ended up talking about was not what are the changes, but how do we move through change? So, how do we get from here to there? And I think that's what um a lot of our schools are at different places at, and really having to step back and think about uh and spending a lot more time thinking about how we actually change. Um, and I've really appreciated the the how the depth of that conversation has been rising. Um, but I do think, I mean, there are some industry-defining conversations that are happening through this grant, um, whether it's uh competency-based theological education and how that will impact the future of not just theological education, but education in the United States. Um, the work that we're doing with Pathways connected to some other work that ATS is doing globally, um, where competency-based theological education is actually further along than it is here in the United States and Canada, has been fascinating. And uh Pathways is allowing theological schools to actually be in the conversation instead of lagging behind, which um which could have easily been the case. So it's really exciting for us to be sort of on the cutting edge of that kind of conversation, which is sort of an inevitable wave that is coming in education. So um that area, non-degree programs, I think, uh is another area that it's requiring schools to redefine organizational and financial models that have been centered on graduate degrees. And then we have an accredited accrediting process at ATS that is also centered in graduate degrees. Um, but what does it mean when these non-degree programs become a central part of the organizational and financial model of the school, central to mission? Um, then how do you have to rethink how you understand accrediting and um and the way that you structure your work together to mission? How do you make sure that it's mission-centered, not uh not graduate degree centered if that's not the center or the primary place your mission is living out? Um and that for the Association of Theological Schools, which has sort of been defined by graduate degrees, that's a lot of things that we also have to think about, um, not just for on behalf of the schools, but in our relationship to the US Department of Education, which is such a part uh important part of our framing of how we do our work on the accrediting side. But then how do we how do we serve the fulsomeness of the missions of our schools becomes a real challenge for us.

SPEAKER_02: 16:21

Sure. There's a lot to unpack there because it's it's touching every part of the field, including ATS as an accreditor. Which I don't know was part of the original conversation when Pathways came out. So it's interesting to see where these things are being touched. Amy at the Intrust Center, a lot of work with Ford's government, obviously, board senior leaders. Um, from that perspective, what are you seeing in terms of how pathways is affecting the institutions, including the leaderships, what they're seeing, what and and how boards need to react to this.

SPEAKER_00: 17:02

Yeah, when I was listening to Joanna, I was thinking of a a couple of things. And I think it's tied to the question you just asked, Matt. Um, you know, one of the conversation spaces was focused on board engagement last week. And there was um some questions raised in that about if in fact these projects are to be transformative for an institution, then where is the centering of the board in some of these spaces, meaning that it's not driven by the board, but where's the engagement and where is the understanding that this is tied to mission fulfillment and financial vitality? And so that that that um focused conversation kind of all circled around the sense of um, if in fact the projects are transformative, then that leads to another question about um each of the projects. And I think it's fair to say some of them are centered um in the institution or or something that's valued by the institution alone for that particular school in that particular context. And I and that's that's fantastic if they've identified something that works for their particular institution and mission. I think other projects are field focused. And, you know, and so um both have a need to have board support, but I think a little bit differently with those ones that are, you know, kind of more field-focused or field shaping or have implications to a broad spectrum of schools. Um, that level, perhaps, of board engagement might be a bit different in helping to think about where that could be centered or maybe even de-centered from a particular school and more, you know, um connected to others. And that takes a lot of work, I think, to help a board understand a vision that reaches beyond an institutional mission. Um, and I think that I was able to talk with some leaders who've had those conversations with their board all along and have board support. Um, and I think part of what perhaps our coordination role can continue to be is to build bridges beyond those institutions to help connect with others who may not feel like, oh, that's space for us. Maybe it's a capacity thing, maybe it's a competitive thing. Um, we've all talked a little bit about that, you know, kind of this undercurrent of um competition that can exist in these types of grants. But I think that I'm thinking a lot about how to extend some of the conversations last week, particularly around board engagement. Particularly around how are you thinking about wider stakeholder involvement if what you're doing is not just connected to mission and institutional advancement, but also to the field as a whole.

SPEAKER_02: 20:16

It's an interesting point because I think some grants exist in corners, right? As you said, they exist in a corner of the institution. You're going to do your program and three to five years, you're done. And others, they're trying to recenter and figure out, have these conversations. And I think that's been part of the power of coordination because it's giving space to do that. So let's talk a little bit about the role of coordination, how you both see that, and and because this is, I don't know if this is unique, but this is a rarity to have co-coordinators in a space. Um, Joanne, you've taken the lead on this right at ATS. Talk a little bit about this because it again, I I don't know that there's been a similar situation. In some ways, we've talked about this, the coordination between ATS and the interest center as a model.

SPEAKER_01: 21:14

Right. Yeah. It's uh slightly different because I don't feel like we have quite that. I mean, we actually share the people that we are reaching out to, right? That we have this common constituent. And because we've been able to define uh our different approaches and our different roles, uh, they've really built upon one another and provided conversation partners that actually help even that help us to, at least for me at ATS, to think, continue to think more industry-wide, um, instead of being sort of in the weeds of our own work, but to be able to keep coming up and think, think more broadly and continue to have a broader perspective on the work that we're doing. Um, uh when Amy was talking, I would I was thinking about the fact that, you know, when the grant started, and we spend so much time working on the survival of our schools. So there's been this breathing space to think a little bit about the future, but it's it it's uh there's a gravitational pull pull back to institutional uh survival that keeps, you know, that happens constantly in this work, that um that having somebody else that's also trying to look more broadly at the the field um helps you stay in that that space. Um yeah, I'm trying to think uh the coordination piece. I think we're still trying to figure out, given the diversity of projects and schools, how to best identify themes, but that that is coordination work at its best.

SPEAKER_02: 23:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 23:02

Right, is uh identifying themes, pulling together um communities of schools to lead conversation in new directions and develop common language. Um, and I do think the beauty of ATS and the interest center working together is you've got communications uh through the interest center. Um, you've got the working with the boards. Uh, we have a lot of work with uh both of us, with presidents and deans, but also um all sorts of attention to different parts of the institution through ATS and then with our conversation with our accrediting standards. So we're able to shape a conversation within the industry at so many different levels, which is what makes it brings about the potential for lasting change in in these spaces. And I think that's what coordination work, at least for us, the two of us have a fairly defined field that we're working in, whereas some other Lilly grants are working in multiple fields, but we do have that field shaping uh responsibility between our two organizations to work on.

SPEAKER_02: 24:16

Amy, what are your thoughts on yeah?

SPEAKER_00: 24:18

No, I appreciate that. And Joanna and I have had a lot of these conversations where I think primarily, you know, a great appreciation for the partnership opportunity to um, you know, be able to test and check things with someone, and then in in doing so, expand thinking. So that I think is just a richness that when it's one organization and one team, you you know, you don't have that opportunity to kind of bounce ideas and broaden um the you know, the just the thinking. So that I think has just enriched the whole coordination. And yes, we both are serving the field in unique ways and we're bringing that into the space. Um, but and I think it's for the benefit of the grantees, right? We we all want the best for the grantees, and there's there's more of us to be able to listen and identify and think about that. One thing that emerged last week, which I thought was terrific, is you know, to Joanne's point of the best of coordination comes from creating these opportunities. And there's been so many peer learning opportunities that ATS has created that we've been a part of. And a couple emerged last week from the grantees out of the conversations last week. And there were a couple of times that Joanne and I touched base, you know, after Pathways during the biennial, where I said, hey, maybe we should do this. We're like, yeah, let's do that. And, you know, and we'll so we'll start to work on it. And that to me is very exciting to be able to have something organically calm out of the day that we didn't kind of bring top down, but bubbled up. And and we are there to be supportive and say, how might we listen and create what you need? And there was great appreciation from a couple of grantees that we would even receive that. And the fact that we can do that in community to say, well, what resources of ATS will complement that? And what resources of the in-trust center? So I do think it's great space for our organizations, but I think it's just really rich space for the grantees to feel kind of this net of support.

SPEAKER_02: 26:45

As we as we start to wrap up our time here, I think that's a good segue, Amy, to talk a little bit about how your perspectives are changing in terms of you know, where we started two and a half years ago. It's like any journey. You start and you think, hey, here's here's where we think we're going. Now we're finding new things, different things to explore. The organizations are changing, both I think uh ATS and and the intrust center, in terms of what your expectations are, how you respond, as you just said very well, Amy, how you might respond to grantees, how you may help. Um, but I think overall, I mean, it at this halfway point, what are you learning? How's this changing where you see the field or in the response in the next two and a half years or the next half of this grant?

SPEAKER_00: 27:39

Well, maybe I'll put it in a couple of categories. So I think that while we continue to do the more technical things that we've promised to do, as in our um part of the coordination, you know, Matt, as you know, you're doing all of the storytelling both in phase two and phase three. Um, we're creating some resources based on um what's being asked and also making a lot of connections to consultants, to other conversation partners. So I'll put a lot of that in a technical category, even though some of it might not be. But I think about our role in thinking about the sustainability and not just institution to institution in the project grant, but I think about um from the the standpoint of what what of what is being learned that could best sustain the field, you know, um, and then where is our place in kind of helping those grantees um really leverage those experiences? And I think that over the next two years will be a way in which coordination can help with those sort of more field uh-wide um projects gain some more traction because institutionally we we know many of these schools are small with limited people resources and they're trying to do these really big things. So um, and that's not to prioritize projects over one another. But as I had said previously, I think some are centered on schools and they'll they will learn through their own institutional metrics and their supplies and demands what's going to be sustained. But perhaps being able to really center on some of these massive projects that have great potential across the field and to really think about how coordination moves into support in a different way. Just out of last week, that's just something lingering in my mind. So I'm not sure how yet, but that's where I hope we go.

SPEAKER_02: 29:54

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's far more complex than I think people may understand, is to try to pull the right learnings out and put the right people in the right places to do those things to help facilitate that. I mean, it looks easy when you have a big event and things go flawlessly and the catering's on time, uh, but to prime those pumps and to pull the right things is a very difficult thing. Joanne, let me give you the list some last thoughts.

SPEAKER_01: 30:24

Yeah, I mean, I guess building on what Amy was saying, it's it's getting enough people who are situated at schools all across two countries that are focused on a similar idea together so that there's enough momentum to move those ideas forward, which particularly with the ones that are really future thinking or uh really industry changing, that's what they need. They often feel isolated at their own institutions. And that's what coordination can really help with. And I think for both our organizations, you know, we're trying really hard not to do it for people because that just won't bring about sustainable, lasting change. But how do we come alongside things that emerge for ATS in particular as a membership organization? That it is the schools. So we're we're trying to foster what is emerging. Um, and I think I do want to say that I probably should have talked about this a little bit earlier, but one of the major shifts we've seen is in the diversity of leaders coming into ATS schools through these projects. And I think, you know, that's uh as we talk about the things that we need to do to sustain this work and the changes that are coming, um, getting them connected with one another. That's that sense of isolation. They've all come in uh in all these disparate schools all across, you know, these two countries. Um, and they they think they're the only ones until we get them connected with one another. And particularly we see that with the the um Hispanic Latin community, where they have been able to take advantage of pathways gatherings to find a sense of la colectiva, which is what they're calling their their new community or renaming their community of of affinity that um of leaders that are are um bringing that that voice and that strength to our work. And so um I think that you know that that's finding ways to to connect them with one another so that there's a strength um and a momentum within that we can support and move forward that can continue on its own once once all the funding is is is done. Um, you know, that's such a big part of what we do is coordination. And you're right, it takes discernment and we need people to speak to us about that, our advisory board to help us have more eyes as we try to listen and uh to the various ways that God is working through these grants and and move beyond even our own assumptions or expectations of what is supposed to be happening, um, to to really be able to discern new things in new places and stretch ourselves beyond our own sort of capacities to understand what the potential is. That's probably one of the hardest parts is listening and being like, well, I you're pretty sure that's gonna change the entire field. And I have never thought about it until today. You know, okay, now I have to how do we think about it and figure out and and really um try to wisely move forward in the right areas? That's one of the biggest challenges of coordination, but also, you know, the great joy of the work that we get to do.

SPEAKER_02: 33:58

Sure. Let me uh let's close with this. Amy, any last thoughts or things that came up that weren't addressed that I should have asked about uh that you'd like to add at this point?

SPEAKER_00: 34:08

Um I don't know that there's anything that I I think you didn't ask, Matt, but I think that um I think that I'll end where I began, which was saying that I think that the opportunity to bring everyone together brought a lot of energy and encouragement and enthusiasm to the grantees. And I think that was regardless of where they were in their project. Um, I think as Joanne said, that um one of the best parts about coordination is the building of the peer communities and to the to recognize as a project director, you're not alone, as a new president, you're not alone, um, as you know, someone serving in a capacity on the team. And so there was just that real collegiality in the space that I found so encouraging and refreshing. And um, and I think that um no, we all don't need one more place to be, right? One more event. But uh, but I um I'm so encouraged that so many found that space, space to show up for and invest in. And we all know it was a long day, and everyone stayed with it and and attended because I think that they see the value in the community. And and I I think it's wonderful that Lily Endowment invests in coordination in addition to the grantees, so that that can be facilitated. So I'm very encouraged by that.

SPEAKER_02: 35:47

Super thanks. Joanne, anything I didn't add? Anything that you wanted to add at this point?

SPEAKER_01: 35:54

No, just I echo uh Amy's uh words of thanks to the endowment for having a vision that um that this work is is better when somebody is attending to it uh to the community and trying to um sort of multiply the learnings uh on behalf of one another in a field. And so very grateful for their vision and for the opportunity to serve in that way.

SPEAKER_02: 36:21

We'll put links on uh the website intrust.org slash uh slash podcast on this episode to both the uh the ATS's website for the Pathways Coordination as well as the Intrust Center's work, which includes uh on both sites any number of storytellings and ways and options in which people can get into this project, learn about the projects. There's an online directory, there's links to stories and webinars. Uh, this is part of the commitment in the coordination effort to uh share and have peer learning. Uh, there's a lot of great stuff with, and again, intrust.org slash podcast. Today I'm grateful so much for the leadership and uh and collegiality of the Reverend Dr. Joanne DC of ATS. Joanne, thanks so much for all you're doing. Thanks for being here. Great to be here and always wonderful to partner with you all. And grateful, of course, for the leadership of Amy Kardash, the president of the Intrust Center. Amy, thanks for your time today.

SPEAKER_00: 37:25

Thanks, Matt.

SPEAKER_02: 37:28

Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.