In Trust Center
The In Trust Center podcast is hosted by Matt Hufman. Walk alongside theological school leaders and innovators as they explore issues relevant to North American seminaries, all while helping institutions live out their missions more intentionally. Find more at intrust.org/podcast.
In Trust Center
Ep. 73: Overcoming scarcity to blaze a trail
The Rev. Dr. Joanne Rodriguez, executive director of the Hispanic Theological Initiative, was honored with the 2024 Women in Leadership Trailblazer Award by the Association of Theological Schools. She didn't intend to go into theological education, but for a quarter of a century has helped create pathways for others in the field. She shared about dealing with a scarcity mindset, making room for others, and leading through difficult times. HTI's website can be found here. The ATS award can be found here. ATS' Women in Leadership page is here.
Hello and welcome to the Interest Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. I'm sitting in Atlanta, Georgia right now. It is in June. We're taping this. We're recording this on June 19th in 2024. I'm sitting at the ATS Biennial, and I am very grateful to be joined by the Reverend Dr. Joanne Rodriguez, who is about to receive the ATS Women in Leadership Trailblazer Award. Joanne, it is wonderful to have you. Thank you, Matt.
SPEAKER_01:It's great to be with you this afternoon.
SPEAKER_00:And again, I should say, Reverend Dr. Rodriguez, it's wonderful to have you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Just a little bit of background here, and and we'll we'll talk through some of this. But if I were to read the just even the little blurb they put about you in ATS, it's wonderful. I mean, uh the there's a it's a well-deserved honor. Um you've had a career in banking. You've uh you've gone on to get uh theological education, uh you have been an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church. Um you've done a lot, but the the key I think we're talking today is about uh uh HTI, the Hispanic Theological Initiative. And you've been the executive director there, a pioneer in that space. So let's start by it, and we were talking before I hit the record button and I said we gotta stop. We need to record this. You didn't grow up planning to become a minister, not at all. Puerto Rican growing up in Brooklyn.
SPEAKER_01:That's correct.
SPEAKER_00:You got into banking. So tell me a little bit about how you got from uh first generation in Brooklyn into banking and then into the world of theological education.
SPEAKER_01:So my parents, you know, they really wanted us to continue our our education, and so you know, I went to college, but I decided to um major in business, so I had no theological background at all. The other thing was I don't come from a Christian per se a Christian household. We were Catholic, but we would go on holidays um to church, so it wasn't a consistent Christian household. Um but I moved to a new neighborhood and met a woman that was Presbyterian and she had five kids and I loved, you know, they became really good friends. And I went to church and just fell in love with this. It was called the Mission of Graham, the third Presbyterian on South Third, that was the main church, and this was a mission that was established from the that Presbyterian church. And I just, as soon as I walked into this church, I was just they were whole so hospitable and so loving. And I fell in love with the church. And my Bible school teacher, she was so good at teaching the Bible that I fell in love with learning at that point with um the stories and identifying with them. Um fast forward forward to when I'm a high schooler, I decided to kind of separate a bit from the church, and then I went to college. And um, when I finished college, I moved, I purchased my own home at that time, started my banking career. But there was something that was kind of missing, and so um bumped into a couple of members from the church, and they were just, you know, wanted to think about coming back. And I stepped into the church, and some of the members that were there when I was a child were still there, and they were so excited to see me and so again hospitable, and um I decided I'm going to join join the church again. And um, because of my banking background, the church was not did not have a good accounting system, so I became immediately involved in supporting the accounting system of the church, set accounting regulations and all that stuff, and had budget meetings, and then I became a deacon and then I became an elder. And so in that journey, I um there was several pastors that met me and um they decided to kind of like say you should consider seminary.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And I didn't, I'll be if I'm honest, I didn't even know what seminary was. And so um I applied to Princeton Theological Seminary, was the only school that I applied to. In the meantime, you know, I was leaving a Korea, had already an established career in banking. I was about, I was really, I was already being um, so the vice president had called me and said, you know, we want you to become a regional sales manager, um, vice president, and so here I was.
SPEAKER_00:You had a choice.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I had a choice. And I got accepted. I got accepted to Prince at theological seminary, and I left it. I gave a two weeks' notice and decided to go to seminary.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And that was uh a big move, very big, bold move in my life, but um something was was tugging at the heart, and that's how I came to theological education.
SPEAKER_00:That's not an easy thing to do, is to leave a career to to and then to jump into a field you weren't trained in. You trained in business, finance, uh, which is kind of the farthest thing away sometimes, it feels like, right? From I mean, you you did a THM and an MDiv at Princeton.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:That's not about accounting, that's a a different subject.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, it was very challenging, especially uh my first course in theological education was Greek.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, same here. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh. That summer, I mean, I'm as I'm not a quitter, but I after the third week, I seriously considered it and said, well, maybe I I have enough context in the banking world that I can go right back to it. And, you know, um God was there were several students who would just took me under their wing and and helped me. And I'm so grateful um to those students. And one of them this to this day is a great friend, Tony Lynn. Um, and so we, you know, it was the start of I I was able to finish it and will be plus. So uh yeah, yeah. And so I continued and then established community, you know, and that's one of the things that I think I've always done. Wherever I go, I I I seek community. And uh we just, you know, the semester began and it was just amazing. The new students that were coming in, students that I had met throughout the summer, and it was a wonderful, it was a challenging three years because of the difference in the field, but also theological education is not just uh, you know, intellectual endeavor, it's a spiritual endeavor. Yes. And so that was the real challenge. It was trying to merge those two, it's was trying to um and both with the community, I um I fell in love with um the institution, although it wasn't a welcoming place, and we had some challenging things that happened throughout those three years, in certain ways, in other ways it was it was welcoming. It was it was a really great experience. It was one of the greatest experiences that I had in my educational life. And the relationships that um began there till this day are still people that I have in my life. For example, we just had an alum had an alumni gathering at Princeton Theological Seminary, and we were celebrating the recent graduates, and I invited several alumni from my group, and they all came. They all came to the gathering that were local, and it was just a beautiful uh reunion. Um so I I'm grateful that for even if I didn't know what I was doing at the time, that I did make that move.
SPEAKER_00:Did you have an idea what you were planning to do with seminary degrees?
SPEAKER_01:So I, you know, the Presbyterian Church has an ordination track where you um you have to become an inquirer and then a candidate, and then of course, you know, you get installed in a in a church or in a field. So I was going through the inquiry process and even the candidacy. Um and when I graduated, I did interview with two churches and HTI. But I wasn't um ready. I was still taking the exams. And so um one interview I thought it was going to pan out for the church, but then it didn't. I I didn't get called back, and then the other one I knew immediately as I was interviewing that it wasn't gonna be a right fit for me. And then HTI um happened. And uh I had no idea what I was getting into with HTI. Right. But I accepted, I accepted the position as an assistant director at the time, and that's how I came to HTI.
SPEAKER_00:So you've left you left a banking career, you end up at HTI, right? It and everybody, I don't know if everybody, but it seems like you go into seminary because you have a feeling, many people share a feeling, cross-denominations, of a literal higher calling, a uh a sense that you need the preparation for this field. HTI has been the calling for you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it has become the mission, the church. Um at first it was a job, if I'm honest.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I know about banking, right, and I needed to, I wanted to buy a house, and I knew if I didn't have a job, I wasn't going to get the mortgage. Um and so um I got the job, I got the mortgage, I got the house. But shortly after that, it was just I started to really fall in love with the people and the mission of the program. Um, and so it became, and it also was a stepping stone because at the time it was a grant-funded, fully grant grant-funded institution that was being established. And I was told if the grant ends, your position ends. So it was a three-year stepping stone to something else. Um, and here we are 25 years later. Well, 22 years later.
SPEAKER_00:Funny how that works. Funny how that works. In your career, I mean, you have seen the growth of HTI. You have seen um the growth through the field, I mean, where you are reaching into um, I mean, really shaping students' lives by the work you do with students who are you're supporting, you're you're promoting, you're putting, assisting, um, doing a lot of things and and obviously well known in the field because of your work. I want to step back for a second. It's it's you know, being a Puerto Rican woman, woman in this field, you know, there's not a lot of representation for women, much less women of color. Spanish-speaking women. Talk to me a little bit about the path and how that's changed over 20 plus years. Because, you know, at a gathering like this, people know you now. You've got great respect, a great reputation. Your work has spoken for itself. But understanding the roots of that started at a very small nonprofit. And in coming into that, I mean I think that's part of why it is so appropriate the Women in Leadership Trailblazer Award. You have blazed a trail.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was looking that I was looking up that word because sometimes we kind of like take for granted, but Travis, Trailblazer means um innovative, creative, and also um going into the wild country. And wild country means desolate, unc uncultivated land, right? So I'm like, okay, uh, what does this all mean? And it it did feel that way. It felt like, although we had money, and sometimes people misunderstand that it's not all about money. Um, several years ago, I took two studies um that were speaking about um PhD studies and saying we've poured millions into PhD studies and yet we're not we're not cultivating scholars. They're getting stuck. They're not um more than 50% of students, no matter what color they are, don't finish their PhDs. And so I was like, well, it's not just money, it's it's much more than that, you know. So what do you what do you do with desolate land? What do you do with uncultured land, right? Or space. You have to create more, you have to create a system, you gotta create process, you gotta create a a space for people to to have the resources they need to eventually, you know, um achieve the degree, the doctorate. And that's what, you know, that's what we've been doing. I've been listening very attentively to the community, working with the community, um, and building, you know, what the students say that they need so that they can finish the degrees and go on to um serve in this community, right? Um, so yeah, I mean it would in a way sometimes we feel like, oh my gosh, it's it we don't have a plan. There's nothing here. I kind of like working with spaces like that because I don't have to tear anything down. I've got to work with building. And who are the who are the key people that can help build this? And then build it, measure it, assess it, evaluate it, and see, you know, tweak it along the way so that it eventually achieves what it is that you want it to achieve. I like working in spaces where we're making a difference, where there is impact, a change. Um, so that to me is vitally important. And so that's what we've been doing, you know, and I haven't done it alone. I work with brilliant people, I work with and for brilliant people. And we're seeing now, after 25 years, all of that in different spaces in theological education, in religious education, and even in the larger landscape of education. And that's what I believe the king king kingdom of God is. It's not for the future, it's not for it's for the here and now. How can we do this here and now? So that's what's happened. That's what's happened in the past 25 years.
SPEAKER_00:Talk about the desolation. I mean, as a pioneer, you're going out into, as you said, uncultivated land. And it's not all it's not always hospitable. You mentioned that at Princeton. There were places that were places that weren't at the time. Um certainly in a field without a lot of representation, it can feel desolate. Yes. Certainly lonely.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think um for leaders who really um are risk takers, it's extremely lonely. I'm not, you know, there have been times that I have felt extremely lonely. Extremely sad, you know, um, sometimes even defeated, you know. But like I said before, theological education is not just intellectual, there's a spiritual component to this. And we've got to tap into that spiritual component of it. When we say we surrender to God, that is a way of surrendering to God what you cannot see, what you you're feeling desolate about, you may even feel defeated about, but that spiritual component plays, at least in my life and in these 25 years, um, I've seen that I've had there's there's specific times where I've had to surrender, and then I've seen how suddenly it something emerges. And surprise, you know, it's surprising. And you know that no matter how bright you are, you know how much how much you learn to use resources. There's a certain there's certain points where you know, wait, this couldn't have happened if it wasn't from God, right? So that's the spiritual component of the work that I also do. And so the more that I've learned to work both with the intellect but also the heart and the spirituality of this, um, is when I see, wow, we really can do a lot um when we have those when we're listening to all of those pieces. I don't know if that sounds a little bit too um but but but that's my that's been my reality.
SPEAKER_00:Well there's a there's a holistic nature in spirituality that often gets dissected in in certain places, whether that's in a church or a a theological school, we take spirit aside from uh you know the body apart from vocation. What I hear you saying is that all those have married, been married together in your work. There's the vocational calling in you, which you feel is a calling.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And the the theological uh training and the work in what the church and this have all what I hear you saying is it's all come together.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. They all um they're all important. We have to be learners our entire life. We have to be excellent lesson listeners for both the spiritual component and the intellectual components of the work that we do. And we have to love what we do. Love the people we do it with, love the work that we're doing, and love the people we're we're doing it for. And when you when those three merge, um you can really see we don't live in a world of scarcity. You don't live no you no longer live in a world of scarcity. Instead, you you even when you hit the most um you know, the bottom of the bottom, there's something that can emerge even there. You know, like we we talk about the Bible and the dry bones, right? And yet God says he breath spirit into those dry bones, right? And so even when you're feeling that desolate, the spirit can can work and and merge those three things so that you can um you can see something beautiful emerge. And you gotta be patient. It doesn't happen overnight. We've been at this for 25 years, right?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I appreciate that it's Ezekiel's vision, right? With the dry bones and it's it's first speak to the bones, and the bones come up, and then speak to this, and then speak to the spirit. Yes, in and there's a process before you see the thing of beauty. And you've been through that process. You've been through you've you you've been through the desolate land. Um so tell me about the beauty you're seeing now first. What have you know, over 25 years you have seen the desolate, you have seen the loneliness, you have done the work of the trailblazer. You've cultivated. Yeah. What what's the beauty that you see as that's been cultivated?
SPEAKER_01:You know, um, so for example, um we're here at ATS, right? And ATS started its meetings with the pathways program.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:So immediately, you know, I'm I'm I'm here, I know people now, everyone's greeting each other, it's exciting. It really is exciting. There are so many programs that are coming out of that pathway grant that are addressing the needs of the Latino communities. And even communities that are not Latino, right? It's very multi-ethnic, multidisciplinary, and that's beautiful. Because I've always said we don't want to ghettoise the Latino community. Right. Instead, we want to um support these scholars, nurture them so that they can contribute to the larger landscape of theological religious education. And that's what I'm seeing. Like I am seeing the hard work turn into impact, turn into change. Um when we need it the most. You know, the pandemic really devastated many communities and still scares many communities. We're in a we're in a political space right now that's very dangerous. Um, what do we do? Do we sit back and complain about it? Do we sit back and accept it? No. We take action. We prepare people for the moment. This is the moment, and we have prepared the people for this moment. And they're ready to step into those roles to build what needs to be new, you know, because we we're always changing. So we cannot continue to do the things that didn't work, that that don't work. We need to to step into this new space and create the change that is needed for the space. That's what I see. And I keep seeing that, and it's a beautiful, it's just, you know, and the fact that there's even more possibilities. So it's just amazing, but it takes time. It it didn't happen overnight.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. So you're seeing again what I heard you talk about was you're seeing the integration. It's not ghettoization, it's throughout theological education. You brought up the Pathways for Tomorrow initiative. We had a one-day conference here. Um and there are a lot of programs that are aimed at uh people of color or aimed at that sounds wrong. They're aimed at m creating pathways for people of color to get the educations that may be helpful. But it's not just Latino, it's uh it's African American, it's various, there's an indigenous uh couple of projects that are for indigenous people. There's so there's this it seems to me like this abundance. But you've been part of this discussion. You know, you've you've led this discussion in so many ways.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, it's unfortunate that this is something that needed to happen centuries ago, right? Decades ago, dec decades ago. Um and so we can keep saying, oh my gosh, this should have happened, why didn't this happen, right? Um but now we it is happening, and it is happening more inclusively, and that is important to understand that all peoples have something to contribute. And by creating these pathways for all of them in one way or another to have the resources that they need to make this contribution so that everyone can benefit from it is the path that we need to continue to stay on. So my hope is that not only Pathways does this, but the institutions begin to really think along these lines. Um, because we can't just start something and then suddenly if it doesn't quite work the way we want it to work, oh well, we tried. You know, we don't have to do this anymore. No, instead, this part of it isn't working yet, but what do we need to do to make it work? Because we need we need all of these different voices in the room for the build the building of the kingdom. Um we we don't have kingdom, we don't have justice if we don't have all of the voices at the table. And so the Latino community is the a community that is contributing. They're contributing with their values, with how they do theological education, with the joy that they come with. Um and we also need to learn how to do that with others, and that's what we've been doing. That's why we use the term in HTIS in conjunto. Um we have 23 consortium schools that send us their students, they're they're identified across their PhD granting institutions across the United States. We're looking to build and advance and you know, advance that. And um the students are ethnically diverse, they're um US born, um, non-U.S. born, um, they're in different fields, and they are they're also being trained to think outside of theological education sometimes, because if theological education isn't going to open up its doors and hire them as faculty, then you know, we don't we don't want them to get this degree and then not use it at the level of leadership that they need to be using be using it at. The reality is is the landscape has changed. And when we look at the landscape, um the student bodies are more um people of different ethnic groups. And so you have to prepare, the institutions have to be thinking more broadly about that, and it duh, it is work. It is work. You if you don't know how to tend to a new culture of students, you have to build a structure. And you need these leaders to help you because they understand those cultures.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you're putting people into places who have the credentials and the training and the ability uh because so you know the mentoring that HTI offers, uh, it's not just go get a degree, it's get a degree and also learn the other things that you need to learn. I mean, so you're putting people in place who can have those conversations, as you said. Um you're creating an infrastructure around them, which is so important, particularly. I mean, early in the conversation you were talking about, 50% of people who start PhDs never finish. Um because it's a tremendous task to do. Give me a peek over, you know, give me a little peek at where you see HTI heading now. What's the next path you're trying you're blazing?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I've never seen HTI as small. That's true.
SPEAKER_00:That is true.
SPEAKER_01:Um as I mentioned, things changed. And if you're paying attention, then you can always see what the needs are, and you are assess what those needs are and how your mission can support those needs. So I do see us expanding the work that we do in different ways. Um and we've already we added a discernment program for master students to um prepare applications for PhD studies. That program started two years ago. We're gonna we were hoping to expand that program. We work in collaborative with other groups. We want to promote that more so um institutions that are supporting master students can have them participate in that program. We um we started Latinas in Leadership because there's a void of Latina women in president um theological education as presidents and deans, and that's going we're going we're going to begin a new cohort for that um group, hopefully in September. Um we we have other possible right now HTI is um undergoing a strategic study and discerning what other programs will be added, but there's definitely a need. Um there needs that that HTI can match its mission and then create new programming. Um and of course, you know, we have good relationship with our funders, and Lily is one of them. And um having those those individuals and even our institutions that are member schools, um, 23, we're diversified in that sense. So I think that the more we the more attention we pay to the landscape and see what the needs are, there's definitely more growth for HTI.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. As we wrap up, again, tomorrow night you're going to get the Women in Leadership Trailblazer Award from uh the Association of Theological Schools, a high, high honor. Reflect from a let's reflect on what you would tell, you know, your experience is rich. It's diverse. You've had a career, you've you've you know grew up first generation in Brooklyn, you went to a seminary that you know was an experience in that, how how you were received with your background. You've blazed more than a few trails in theological education, this work, uh and and working in the greater church. For leaders in theological education, uh what do you want them to hear? What's the lesson you want to hear? Few things that you want that you would want a board, uh leader of a school to understand, maybe in whatever way, to make things better for the next generation, to pave the way for the next trail. What would you say?
SPEAKER_01:Don't believe the hype of scarcity. Okay. Yeah. We are in theological education, and we say scripture shows it, we say it, we preach it. We serve a God of love and abundance. And yet we don't act as people of love and abundance. We're acting as people of scarcity, of fear, of worry. And that is what, you know, that's gonna limit what we can do. And so I think once we um embrace, and I'm not I'm not speaking out of I know how to how to put a budget together, and I know that money is needed to build. And and because I have knowledge of that, I would just say to people, still think beyond the budget, think strategically, listen carefully, um, love the constituencies you're serving with and for, because it it can happen. You can build new vision, you can do new things. But if you you're you get I've seen it too much. People get stuck and they can't see beyond it, and they're cutting things just to cut them. They're not really thinking through budget changes. Um, they're not really listening to the constituencies who see what they need. They're not seeing they're too caught with caught up with the structures of things and how things are done. And this is the way we've done curriculum, and this is what we always have to do. And so that is creating um, you know, scarcity.
SPEAKER_00:So you say is that a matter of having faith, taking your mission for what it is?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, I think it's a matter of faith, but I think also is um, you know, we we're we're acting too much as secular organizations and capitalist organizations instead of organizations that have the spiritual component in the decision making as well. You know, it's it's a combination, as I mentioned at the start of our conversation, it's not one over the other. And so the hype is we get too caught up in the scarcity and not bringing in these other elements that are just as vital and as important.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And and sometimes those those don't really take that much effort. They just they're just not um they're not even considered. It's like we don't do it this way, and the the the and people believe that. Okay, so we don't do it this way. Do we have to do it that way?
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Right? Um, and so that's that's what I would say. Don't believe the hype of scarcity.
SPEAKER_00:Anything I didn't ask you that I should have asked you.
SPEAKER_01:I just want to say thank you to Intrust and um and the great work that you all do for being partners with HTI um and the many other organizations that have partnered with HTI to um help it be the organization that it is today. And I look forward to continuing to do some great, you know, projects and programs and advancing the work of HTI um in many different ways moving forward. So just a word of gratitude to you and to all in all of all of our partners in the Academy. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Well, we're grateful for you. You've done an amazing job at HTI and in the field at large and the church as well. Uh very grateful and and congratulations again, Joanne, on what a what a well-deserved award.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Matt.
SPEAKER_00:My guest today has been the Reverend Dr. Joanne Rodriguez, the executive director of the Hispanic Theological Initiative. We'll put a link to uh HTI's website on intrust.org/slash podcast, and to uh the Women in Leadership Trailblazer Award page. Joanne, again, thanks for being on the program and uh thanks everybody for listening. Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.