Dead Drifters Society: A fly fishing podcast
Casting Lessons: The Intertwining Streams of Education and Fly Fishing with Courtney Morris
As the mist lifts from the river, Courtney Morris, our guest and a seasoned fifth-grade teacher with a spey rod in hand, invites us into his dual world of education and angling. His heartwarming narrative isn't just about imparting knowledge in the classroom or reading the river's flow; it's a testament to the deep connections formed through the shared journey of learning, whether with students or steelhead. Join us as we explore the profound impact of teaching styles that evolve alongside our students and the thrilling tales that emerge from the serenity of Oregon's waters.
Weaving through our conversation like the delicate line of a well-cast fly, we uncover the artistry hidden in the folds of fly-fishing. The evolution of Courtney's passion, from crafting his streamers to the reflective joy of swinging flies for winter steelhead, parallels the meticulous attention he dedicates to his students. This episode is a treasure trove for enthusiasts, rich with stories of memorable catches, the intricacies of fly selection, and the thoughtful consideration of fishing ethics that resonate with the rhythms of nature.
Photography, a silent observer on these escapades, captures the essence of camaraderie and the intoxicating thrill of the catch. Through the lens, we recount the growth of a guide, the expansion of techniques, and the simple joy of sharing these moments with others. Gather around as we plot future escapades and reflect on the bonds forged by the river—a fellowship that extends beyond the classroom's four walls to the banks that cradle the elusive steelhead.
•Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/sculpinarmy?igsh=MTM4bXkwY2hiYmE1aQ==
As the mist lifts from the river, Courtney Morris, our guest and a seasoned fifth-grade teacher with a spey rod in hand, invites us into his dual world of education and angling. His heartwarming narrative isn't just about imparting knowledge in the classroom or reading the river's flow; it's a testament to the deep connections formed through the shared journey of learning, whether with students or steelhead. Join us as we explore the profound impact of teaching styles that evolve alongside our students and the thrilling tales that emerge from the serenity of Oregon's waters.
Weaving through our conversation like the delicate line of a well-cast fly, we uncover the artistry hidden in the folds of fly-fishing. The evolution of Courtney's passion, from crafting his streamers to the reflective joy of swinging flies for winter steelhead, parallels the meticulous attention he dedicates to his students. This episode is a treasure trove for enthusiasts, rich with stories of memorable catches, the intricacies of fly selection, and the thoughtful consideration of fishing ethics that resonate with the rhythms of nature.
Photography, a silent observer on these escapades, captures the essence of camaraderie and the intoxicating thrill of the catch. Through the lens, we recount the growth of a guide, the expansion of techniques, and the simple joy of sharing these moments with others. Gather around as we plot future escapades and reflect on the bonds forged by the river—a fellowship that extends beyond the classroom's four walls to the banks that cradle the elusive steelhead.
•Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/sculpinarmy?igsh=MTM4bXkwY2hiYmE1aQ==
Yeah, I don't really. I honestly I think I find myself surprised. The fish I caught yesterday was in sort of a shallow riffle even though it's winter fishing, right, like this fish, but it had come up like kind of a falls area and pulled over in some like slower water but it, you know, three or four feet deep, but it definitely had some like chop on top and unless you really paid attention you might not have like swung it. Maybe you know 15 foot whole, 15 foot in length, so you might put maybe five or six casts in there. And I got lucky and there was a big beautiful female in there. I don't know, man, I find myself well, two things. I find myself like consistently getting data, like, oh, this run always holds fish. Welcome to Death.
Speaker 2:Draft is Draft is Society Cool. Well, welcome to the podcast, Courtney. How's it going?
Speaker 1:Good man, I'm doing really good, yeah, no worries.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess we should get the basic details kind of out of the way. So you're out in Oregon.
Speaker 1:Yep, I'm in Eugene Oregon right now.
Speaker 2:Okay, and then you said you're a fifth grade teacher.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's my main job when I'm not tying flies in between, yeah, teaching fifth grade kids tying flies or trying to wait for the rivers to go down so I can go steal that fishing again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool, though. What made you want to get into teaching?
Speaker 1:It's not like a brilliant story. I think that I was sort of like a calling my both my dad and my grandparents on both sides were ministers, so they I don't know felt like this religious responsibility to their like people, their flock. I don't I'm not necessarily as religious as they are, but I don't know. I managed just something that like came easily to me when I first started, like visiting and doing my observation hours in a classroom. It just like felt like the right place and I just went for it. And this is 17 years in now and I dude, I love it. It's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, has it always been fifth grade no.
Speaker 1:No, no, I've taught second, third, fourth, fifth. I did some like talented gift and stuff when we lived in Wisconsin, so it kind of run most of the gamut, except for like kindergarten and first grade. I don't know about those, those little baby kids man running around a little wild, is it like?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I'm just just pondered this thought. But when you're like switching grades, is there much you have to do besides from, obviously, after revise what you're going to be teaching and like well, I've done it kind of a lot in my career.
Speaker 1:I would say that it's not that big of a deal, especially once you have a few years under your belt. What you need to do then is like, kind of you know, you need to get good at the whatever the curriculum is for that grade. But a lot of times, if you're going from like third to fourth grade, it's really not that different and it's kind of beneficial to be able to, like, you know, as long as you're going up with the grade, it's like well, I, you know, I know where my kids ended up the year. I can kind of just start there. So you have a pretty good insight as to where those kids are. So, yeah, you do have to learn some new stuff, but it's not I don't know, it's not super hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fair enough. I don't know. Sometimes I'm trying to teach a buddy of mine something and I'm like man, this is tough. So, yeah, teaching a whole classroom of it.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you have some tricks now for yeah, I've been doing it for a while and I do. I do like find it weirdly like related like art in some ways. You know, like there's just like somehow there's. It's not like something you can explain, there's like sometimes there's really good teachers have like like a presence and they just like can get shit done, kids, and other times, you know, sometimes you don't have that or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will say this, though, that I've been lucky enough that I had a weird situation to where we had low kid numbers and all that COVID stuff happened to, where I ended up teaching second grade with the class and I moved up to third grade because we had some teachers that had some, well, some medical issues one of them had a stroke and other one had breast cancers and they moved me up. And then the next year the opportunity came up to move up to fourth grade with the same kids ish, not not exactly the same class. So I moved up to fourth grade and then now this year I'm teaching fifth grade. So I'm really in a privileged position to where, like, I know all of these kids. I've been teaching most of them for the last four years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's like another level of I don't know, man. I know the kids, I know the families and all of that's like I wouldn't change it for the world and actually I'm like thinking about like how can I make this happen again? You know, in my career maybe I can do this one more time. It's pretty special.
Speaker 2:Man, that that almost doesn't even seem like a bad scenario overall. You know like if every teacher moved up with their class and let's say you hit, you know eighth grade or before you go to high school, kind of thing, and then do the rotation back down, then you can get it like restart with these kids, because I remember switching you know every year switching teachers and I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, not not every teacher and family like gets along and not every teacher and kid gets along, so I wouldn't say it's like great in all situations. But I've been lucky, like I got a good group of kids out of the like 75 kids that are in this like grade level. I've taught about 55 of them and I just know the kids really well and I know the families really well. So, kind of, instead of becoming like an expert if I would have stayed in fifth grade, you know, for five years an expert in the curriculum I've kind of become more of an expert in the families and in the kids. Yeah, I mean so like I just like I know this one kid and this is what makes them tick and you definitely don't want to do this to this kid because that'll kind of set him off and this is how they learn the best, and so, yeah, it makes it. It makes kind of things easier. You know I'm able to communicate with parents a little bit easier, because now we're talking about three or four years of trust and communication.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's been good, yeah, it's cool, and then obviously, this is what you want to do for the rest of your life Teach. I don't know, man.
Speaker 1:You don't know Fair enough, it's hard. I don't know. I honestly don't know. Yeah, maybe, maybe not. I like that. One of the cool things about teaching is it's like really consistent. You know you got to get really consistent paycheck. Not the pay is great, but, like man, it's consistent. I have really good benefits. But I don't know. I'm 17 years in now. I think like once I hit 30 years, it's like retirement age, so I'll likely stick it out. Yeah, most of this time. Again, I like I really appreciate what I do, but I might tweak it a little bit and maybe do some mentor teaching or, who knows, maybe I'll give it all up and be a fishing guide for the last life. I don't know, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the cool thing about life you get to keep tweaking as you go. So well, enough school talk. I'm sure you get that enough five days a week. Oh, actually, here's your last question. Do you have to do stuff on the weekends Like let's call it homework? Do you have like a ton that you have to like rep for when you're at home and stuff?
Speaker 1:Not a ton. One of my I was someone one of my co-teachers. We were having lunch the other day and they're like, oh, you're a Virgo. And I was like, yeah, I guess so, but she's really efficient. And then I was like, yeah, yeah, I really like being efficient. But one of the things that I pride myself on is like trying not to take work home on the weekend. So I grade as much as I can during the day. I use all my prep times to be as specific as I can, to like I'm not checking emails. I can do that early in the morning or after school, but I'm using this time for grading. Honestly, I don't take a ton of work home to answer your question over the weekend Because I have to. You know, like doing report cards, you have to catch up on grading and stuff like that. But overall, like my weekends are, they're pretty free. Man, I feel good I get my stuff done during the week. Weekends are for fishing.
Speaker 2:Hey man, I can live with that. That's a good answer, All right. Well, yeah, let's get into the fishing talk. Where did that all start?
Speaker 1:I would say my grandpa. When I was younger he had a houseboat. I grew up in California. Every summer I got to kind of live with my grandpa for about two months and he would take us out to his houseboat. He had a bass boat and so we would just go fishing and this is all just like gear stuff and I was just obsessed with it as a kid man. I lived in Southern California and I Probably got to fish only in the summertime but I would spend all of my allowance buying like fishing magazines. I would buy lures I had one of the most immaculant tackle boxes you would ever see for like a 10 year old kid, and I never used those lures ever until I went out into the summer. So I was just like stockpiling stuff. It was cool. That's how I got my start man. It was great. And I was just a gear fisherman all the way from when I was, you know, seven or eight, with my grandpa on Lake Intel College. All the way through then I was just went up to.
Speaker 1:I went to school at Chico State. So it's in Northern California. There's a lot of trout, streams and rivers and stuff. Salmon we're throwing beads for Chinook on the Feather River Back in the day before school started and Then, after I graduated Chico, I went out to I I became a teacher, met my wife in Santa Cruz, california.
Speaker 1:She got into a master's program on the East Coast and I got laid off in 2010 same time Also part of being a teacher like when her recession hits, sometimes you get laid off. So I followed her out to the East Coast and I was doing some substitute teaching in Massachusetts. Actually, this tiny little, what do they call in there? They call them Brooks. It's called a Brooke, not A stream, not a river. It's like little teeny Brooke I knew had fish in it and there are these native, native brook trout there and there was also these big brown trout in the stream and it was so small that even with two-pound test the tiniest ultra light line and the lightest like panther Martin I could find I still couldn't present anything to it because it was like the water was so small and I was like I need to get a fly rod, and so that was probably back 2011 or something like that and Got my first fly rod off for that, I think for a birthday.
Speaker 1:My Facebook actually just told me 12 years ago today I. I caught a fish on the first fly that I tied myself Nice, yeah, like 2012 February 4th, and then I kind of never looked back. I became kind of obsessed with just like time, flies and fly fishing in, first on the East Coast. Then I moved to Massachusetts and did a lot of streamer fishing out there for big Browns and Even some bass and stuff, and then we moved to Oregon and then I became kind of obsessed with steelhead and that's when I am now, like I'm just I pretty much 80% of this fishing I do is for steelhead, whether it's summer steelhead most of the year, and then right now I'm just got got into winter steelhead. So, yeah, that's that's where I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I love it. Natural progression right there. Yeah yeah, how did? I was curious when I was looking at that sculpting army. That's your Instagram handle, right? Yeah yeah, how'd you come up with that name? I like it.
Speaker 1:That was when I was doing a lot. So Instagram came out and I Think right at the end of the time where I right when I started fly fishing, my buddy was like oh yeah, no one does Facebook anymore, you got to get on Instagram. And so I like got an Instagram. I can't remember what my first name was, but Right after that I moved to Wisconsin and I was just tying streamers. Man, I the the Main fishing in Wisconsin is they Wisconsin's cool, it's just the driftless area first of all, like glacial drift missed this one area, and so instead of having flat planes, you have gorges that have spring fed, little tiny rivers that go, little tiny streams that go through like cow pastures and farmlands for hundreds of miles in mass.
Speaker 1:Not in Massachusetts, in, uh, wisconsin, a little tiny corner of Illinois, minnesota and a little bit of Iowa. So if you go out there there's Incredible trout fishing. Most of them flow into the Mississippi River and so there's where a lot of the like huge, there's some like Two-foot brown trout that'll go into the Mississippi River and then come back up. Anyways, a lot of the fishing I did out there. I found the most effective way I was throwing streamers, so it moved from woolly butters to tie in sculpting patterns to tie in all kinds of big baitfish and, um, yeah, man, that's kind of. Yeah, I just came up with. I think I was just tying a ton of sculpting patterns and then it came to me and that that's kind of been my like uh, little brand, I guess, ever since then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's a good name, I like it. I love fishing, sculpting, so Say, I don't remember. I think it was through David Um, or maybe it was Ryan Morgan. Do you know? Ryan Morgan? Um, I don't, I don't know, I don't think so.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it was probably through David that I found your.
Speaker 2:Your thing. But I remember reading Sculpin army and I was like, haha, nice, you know, it goes like that's a good one.
Speaker 1:Um, but I think at one point I like took a picture and all I had was like 15 sculpting patterns and like two little nymphs that I tied and I was like, oh, it looks like a scoping army. And I was like, wait, oh yeah, it's kind of one of those things you know, yeah, yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 2:Finding names for me has always been hard but my wife's good at it, so shout out her. She names things for me, um, like dead drifter society that took like three weeks to come up with and it was mostly her. We eventually just like went on google and we're like Fishing terminology, you know and just like looked through this whole thing, or fly fishing terminology, and looked through the whole thing and Eventually she was like, well, what about dead drifter? And I was like that doesn't work. But I wrote it down. You know, I had a list. I wrote it down and like next day or two days later I looked back at the list and I saw dead drifter and then or dead drifting. And then I was like dead drifter, dead drifters. And I was like I like it, but it's missing something.
Speaker 2:And then my goal with the podcast is obviously creating a bit of a community and all that. So then all society came into it. But, yeah, I like names. I love when I read, a lot of people are very creative with their instagram names. So A lot of people are very creative with their instagram names. So that was one that stood out to me. But, um, yeah, I guess when we're talking steelhead, so you're in Oregon, so it's you're mostly targeting steelhead, like do you still go for trout? Are you pretty busy, so you kind of save it.
Speaker 1:I love fishing for steelhead man. There's like I do trout fishing Mainly in march, april, may, yeah, in march is kind of hard to pull me away from. If the rivers are In shape for steelhead I'm going to still chase steelhead, but that's probably the best trout fishing that we have out here. Yeah, that's when the drive by season goes off, um, but man, you can chase, you can literally get. You can get summer steelhead here from June I've caught him in june through december and then you can get winter steelhead from december through april.
Speaker 1:So you really just got may figure out, you know, I mean may is like I'll go trout fishing, um, but yeah, I just, I just love, uh, swinging two hand rods and even for trout man I'll just go, you know, take my, uh, even my trout spay rod and and do that around here. I really do love it. It's super fun. And you know I'm surrounded by just amazing rivers. To do all this I have the mackenzie, the lammet, the middle fork, the lammet, um, I was just on the north omkwa yesterday, you know, like some pristine water to where you can kind of swing a two hand rod and and, uh, kind of have some sort of productive fishing, or at least say you have a chance at catching some fish At all of those months, especially steelhead.
Speaker 2:It's pretty special yeah, I do hear you there. I have quite a Good group of guys that lived out um, in oregon or washington and stuff, so I hear a lot about it. We can do the same, like we got our or, uh, summer and spring and winter runs on the island. I guess there's, you know, if we don't count closures, you could, you could technically fish and you know, not including rain and stuff, you could fish for them all year round on the island. But summer runs, that's one of those things. You got to really know where you're going and timing as anything. Yeah, so that's the big one.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'm just slowly getting in one of my good buddies who, um, I kind of taught how to fly fish at first, or at least how to cast and and do like chronomids and lakes. He's big into sea runs Right now. That's been his kind of jam lately. So, uh, now that the river's blown out of, it's kind of like, well, what do I do? And so at least we got the sea runs. So that's nice. But yeah, and it's funny because I guess you're five days a week and you know weekends off as well, and then you know your weekend comes around and it's raining and water's, the rivers blow out and you're like this whole week it was just pristine, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been running into that this year especially, like, uh, this is my second time getting out from winter's due ahead. That's by far. I think I've lived here seven years. It's the least, um least amount of winter fishing I've ever done. At this point, what, what is it? It's, uh, february 4th. I've never gone this few times, um, but it's just the winter, you know, like we weren't really able to To get out very much at least I wasn't with my five day a week job. Um the beginning of january, until Probably three days ago, I think, the water finally cleared because we had some crazy storms come through. So, yeah, yeah, it's been kind of insane man.
Speaker 2:I figured it out for you. So what you have to do is you just have to write up A little like description on this field trip and like okay, so I'm taking the kids out to this river. Oh, there's life all around you. Yeah, talk about flows, weather patterns. Teacher's gonna go off over here for a couple hours. I'll be over there. Well, all you parents will stay here with the kids. Yeah, I'm just going to see what's up around that bend.
Speaker 1:There's the north umkwata trail. You can take them a mile up and a mile back down.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm gonna do some specimen sampling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm uh, I've been hired by uh myself to do quite a bit of research in this area. So, yeah, yeah, it's, uh, I got out, I think like four or five times, um, just floating like I have. I've never really floated the lower section like our river's, not that long. We're on an island, so you know we're limited in a sense, but we got, like the cowgeon lake, which feeds down into the ocean and a bunch of tributaries feed the, feed the lake. It's. Yeah, it's the second biggest lake on the island. It is quite massive. Like you know, speed boats and Lots of people do stuff on it during the summer. But I've always fished the upper section, which is more accessible, and then I, you know, I have a raft, like a three-man raft that I use for guiding, and then I have, uh, uh, water master and I've always kind of Fished with a lot of people, and so a lot of my friends were like, really, I'm really big into your own thing, but Not so much this season. I've been like very dead set on like I'm swinging. If I'm on a river, I'm swinging, and so A lot of my friends have been going off doing their own thing and I've been kind of drifting down the river with a few other people Doing more swinging stuff. So I've been getting a lot in.
Speaker 2:But Then when you know it's February is always kind of like okay, game time, february, march it's like here's your, here's your opportunity, kind of thing. And yeah, it just like started blowing out. It's been blown out for a bit now, and the one weekend couple weekends ago I was able to go I had a friend's birthday party. So, um, we went to, uh, salt spring island, which was a little island. We stayed there and I was looking at the rivers and I was like, oh yeah, I should be there next weekend, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. And then it's blown out. So, yeah, that's about right. But you know I've tied a few flies in the mean time. So I've been tying a lot of flies this winter.
Speaker 1:Um, I think I have like the world's coolest intruder box. Yeah, I'll put mine up against anybody's man, like, uh, I got. Yeah, I have like three boxes. I have two boxes. I stick them in my like my waiter um jacket and I'm like there's, I don't think there's anyone on the planet that has More cool flies than these two boxes, at least. I'm very biased, of course, but yeah, no, it's uh, that's kind of like I've definitely mentioned it before.
Speaker 2:But you know, like you were saying, when you're younger and you're buying lures and stuff, that's kind of the extent when you're not fishing is like either reading about in magazine TV, but you can't really like Not many people set up their, their gear rod and then tie on their Spinner or whatever they're doing and then you know, but fly fishing you get it, like you know well, minus the, the podcast, but you can sit there and just tie flies and and it's very engaging in that sense. So I think that, like for me I had definitely wasn't the best student I've ever been in, for me I had definitely wasn't the best student. I was loud and funny, or at least I thought I was funny, I didn't pay attention. So something like this where I can just be hands-on Basically all the time, whenever I have a moment to myself I'm like, oh yeah, oh, that box looks a little low or oh, this new thing popped into my head, I need to tie that up. So it's very engaging in that sense. But same with, like you know, I love your own infing, just because it's obviously super effective. Um, it's fun and you know all that.
Speaker 2:But the one thing I kind of Maybe transitioned a little bit out of, was like, okay, I know I can do this, you know I've gone, get at it, I'm able to teach people, I can have a good day on a guided trip. And then I went away Into central bc, uh in Cranbrook, and did dry fly fishing. So I was like, all right, now I can do the dry fly thing, I know how to, kind of I've had way so much to learn still there. But, um, I know I can do it. And I was like all I really think about all year long is swinging. For winter steelhead I've yet to catch a summer run, find them. But something about swinging and like you know, because you're a fishing cast out and kind of go through the run or whatever. But when you're spear fishing you get that like moment of like, yes, I am here, I am one, and then you like do that nice cast and the rhythm and everything and it kind of just it involves you slightly more, you know you feel that I don't know, it's weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I did. I came at it same as you like fishing from different, uh, different techniques or strategies or methods or whatever you want to call it. But, um, yeah, it's, it's swinging flies. Standing in a river, swinging flies is like One of the coolest ways you can catch fish. I don't, I don't know why. I can't really explain it.
Speaker 1:Some people say, just because the tight line grab, you know, because you're you know you're tight to a swung fly, and then all of a sudden it's like on, I don't know what it is, man, it's I. I'd rather do that than throw dry flies, and I love throwing dry flies and I'd rather do that and Throw streamers, and I actually love streamers. Um, but, yeah, man, swinging a fly, getting a grab, that's special. I, uh, I think I texted you or messaged you on instagram to the day and or today and I was like yo, I got a fish. I got a sweet hen yesterday, only my.
Speaker 1:So I've been Stealhead fishing for a few years. Um, this is only my third time where I've actually like landed a winner fish swinging a fly, and for me there's such a special thing. It would just happen yesterday and so all night I was like going to sleep and anytime I was in, it's like twilight dude, I just kept reliving it over and over, exactly like where I casted, how Really how the grab felt, because it's one of those things where, like, you can tell that you're not on the bottom, you can tell that you're not Hooked up to a tree or whatever. It's like Immediately. What you're holding onto became it became alive, it's like.
Speaker 1:And I just started screaming and my buddy came over I ended this sweet, sweet, beautiful big-ass hen, let her swim away and it was like I think that's gonna make my whole winter, man. I mean, hopefully I catch 15 more fish, but I will, you know, I'll take one or two, but uh, yeah, man, I don't know what it is or why swinging flies is so special that I I'm totally addicted to it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's uh, well, and congratulations, that's awesome. Yeah, and it's man that is. I don't even know, there's no words for it because I feel you, it's one of those things where you're just like, yeah, like you said, dry flies, awesome. Yeah, them like come up from the depth. Yeah, walloi, you wait that millisecond. You said it is awesome streamer fishing. You're ripping it back. You see him come out, grab it. You're so aggressive, it's beautiful. But, and, like I said, I haven't caught a summer run, so I haven't haven't sight-fished steelhead yet, or you know, assumed or like, saw some and kind of work that water. I just mostly assume that there is a winter steelhead in my system. I'm going to keep trying till he climbs on or or the season's over, which is what happened last year.
Speaker 2:I I hooked into quite a few and and landed zero. Well, my, my track record prior to last year was astonishing. I had I landed 10 and lost one in my first, I guess, four years, five years anyways and then last year I hooked into six and landed zero. It was a little rough. But I also made the switch to classic flies. Not that I was really tying classic flies, but I was tying them on like a classic style hook and I've talked to some people and they're like, yeah, it's, they don't hold, they don't stay on as as well, since it's a long shank and it can't move around as much. I don't know how much I, you know, I haven't really done the research, let's say, aside from losing the six fish. So I agreed with it because it made me feel better. But I got six grabs, which was obviously more than I had had years prior. So that's exciting. But now I'm just like so dead set on, like I have to catch it on a oh, are we cutting out of it?
Speaker 1:there lives you for a second? Yeah, I lost you for a second. Oh good, yeah we're good now.
Speaker 2:But yeah, like I was saying, now I'm just like dead set on. I want to catch it on a classic fly. So I'm you feel I never felt like I was running out of time when I was still heading, but this year I'm feeling like I'm running out of time because now the river is blown out and like, basically the end of March is when we stop swinging for them, because obviously they're starting to spawn and we want them to spawn.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, we do the same thing too. Most of the stuff the only there's like one or two rivers that are open that has a later run. Where I am, you know you try to like if you see anybody on the ethics of it or you can't. You're not messing with steelhead in a run, or I mean, excuse me, on a, on a red, yeah, in a run, though that's like different, right, they're not, they're not made, they're not paired up, they're not like digging reds right now. So there's a few rivers that you can.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes people go fish the Northamqua through April, but basically I'm the same thing. Basically it's through March, yeah, and it's kind of over. And I'm into the classic fly thing as well and I've also had the same thoughts about catching them on a on like a more classic pattern. I've tied a lot this season especially. I have in my box and I've got my intruder box. Then I'll have my like long shanks, like it's like size one and a half Alec Jackson's. You know where we got about working on yeah, and I'm. Some people say that they that that's that long lever. It makes it easier for them to just like work out yeah, which might be why they get lost. But I'm gonna definitely fish some of those when the water side this year and see how it was, especially if it's well, not when it's high, especially if water is a little bit lower.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll have more confidence doing that yeah, and I have noticed with these like classic flies, you get a lot more like other trout, you know, you get, you get all these other species. They grab where, as I found with the intruders, it'd be like once in a blue moon where you'd get a brown or you'd get a rainbow or a cutthroat or something. But yeah, so, and going back to the classic flies, it's the one thing that I started doing this year at the beginning of the year, before steelhead season started, was I was tying all these kind of more classic flies on just a shank with a trailer hook. Yeah, then I was really battling my fly always wanting to turn upside down yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 1:It's hard to get those to fly right without dumbbell eyes. Yeah, I've had the same issue, man, unless you're tying them in the round, where it doesn't matter if your fly is flipping exactly, then um, yeah, you, I kind of have to use dumbbell eyes. I think I listen to a podcast somewhere where either Edward or Jerry French was saying that that's the main reason why the intruder even had eyes at all. It wasn't to like get down, it was just like to get it to stay oriented the correct way. They weren't using big eyes, like the only reason why they put eyes on intruders at all was to get it to like swing correctly yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the other thing that I'm kind of breaking into now is so I was always tying two flies. That was my, I guess, bread and butter, but yeah, I didn't. Not. Once do I ever think.
Speaker 1:I looked at my fly and was like shit, it's upside down yeah, because you know I mean all tied in the round, right almost to him.
Speaker 2:And so now I see my fly and it's like on the side and like damn it, shit fly. No, it's not shit fly.
Speaker 2:I assume a fish would still take it yeah thinking it's injured or something there at least I would tell myself that. But yeah, and then one of my buddies told me actually not well, he is a buddy, but the owner of the fly shop out here. He was saying that what he'll actually do is take like a very small lead and tied in in the bottom and then, you know, ties fly, so it'll put a length, wise, and just to add that, but sign that as well. The other thing I was doing, which now I'm going to not do, is the wire, the trailer wire. I was tying on the top and the wire would also. So you know learning.
Speaker 1:So what it's about, and yeah, totally, yeah, I always, I always try my, I think. I always try tie my trailer wire on the top but depending on whether it has dumbbell eyes usually it's hookup and it doesn't have dumbbell eyes, I put a hook down. Yeah, so I don't know if that makes a difference, and sometimes I've had things like I tied some of the. Jerry French has this pattern called like a something prawn, but it doesn't have dumbbell eyes. It has a cone in the front. It's one of his prawn patterns.
Speaker 1:Man, I can't think of it right now. I'd like to give him credit for it anyways. Yeah, the with the cone on it, it like flipped upside down all the time and so then I just flipped. I took mine because I'm, mine was just on a loop on a wire and so I flipped my hook upside down and then it rode correctly. Yeah, you know so it's sometimes dude, yeah, that that stuff with shanks and wires and they just they just ride weird, and even even some of my intruders I was noticing yesterday they kind of floated or swung a little bit sideways. You know it's it's so hard to get everything like perfectly lined up which goes to, I mean, which goes to say like I don't think the steelhead care that much. Yeah, it's just about whether we have confidence in it. Like, how much confidence do you have? And like, looking at that fly or maybe don't look at it, that might be one of the keys right, don't look, just throw it out there. Man, the steal, I don't give a shit.
Speaker 2:No, I know I think about I'm gonna grab it. Yeah, I think about that a lot, you know, even whenever I'm fishing, I'm like obviously, fly selection is an important role maybe. Maybe I think fly selection like lakes I'm. I don't think oh yeah often, but I'm like thinking about steelhead, well exactly. And then when I think like trout and nymphs, I'm like if it's the right size, you know if they're being picky if it's the right size. And then, obviously, when we try dry flies, if it needs to sit on the surface, hence dry fly.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think about that a little bit with the, with the whole swinging, for steelhead is like, you know, if this fly came upside down at you, would you care? Being a steelhead, I don't think so. If it's swung, rain tickled your nose, you're probably going watch on. But once again, like that confidence thing, but if you're so it's crazy when you, you know you try on a fly and you're like I don't know about this thing and you swing it twice, you're like nope, that'll never work, you know. And then you put something. You know this is is effective, or you've caught fish on it before and all of a sudden you feel like you're, you know, as long as your cast is good and your swing was good. You're like happy, yeah. Yeah, talked a lot about confidence in and on this podcast, about you know you don't feel that confidence and that's like a hard thing when you're first starting out.
Speaker 1:Whether it's hard, yeah well, I went through this man because I was a new spatefisher and I was a. I was an effective fly fisherman, like I could nip I. I've been to Montana, caught big fish. I'd cut you know 24 inch brown trout in Minnesota and Wisconsin and I'd caught you know 30 inch brown trout or 30 inch bull trout up on the South Fork, the Flathead in Montana, and then I come out here in Oregon.
Speaker 1:I don't know what I'm doing, man, I'm a two-handed rod and these fish are not. They don't want big streamers, they want little, tiny, like dry flies, and not dry flies but wet flies. And I was just so out of sorts. And what's what's really hard, especially for a space fisherman, is you don't get like any data back and don't get like grabs and you don't get fish caught. So you could be doing the exact right thing over and over and over and without fish giving you that input that like, hey, you're doing the right thing. You were always second-guessing yourself, you know, and I went through that, at least I think I went through that for a long time, because you catching a steelhead on a swan flies, I think pretty challenging and it took me a long time before I had any confidence at all yeah, yeah, I very much agree.
Speaker 2:It's a. Yeah, it can be mind-boggling and like I question myself once in a while about like am I swinging it too fast or whatever. But is it not water? Is it even the right water?
Speaker 1:yeah, I kind of wish I was going back like a hundred years in time. You know, get Bill and Ted's like phone booth. Yeah right, how would the fishing in Vancouver Island be a hundred years ago?
Speaker 2:yeah, I've heard crazy stories from old people. It's funny, you're like they're really old fishermen. They always have. Yeah, oh you, you know 30 years ago, if you were standing right where you were, there'd be a sea of steelhead in front of you like yeah, you could scoop five out with every netcast, yeah we used to take home 20 every day. Oh, that's nice yeah thanks a lot yeah, exactly, but yeah, I always.
Speaker 2:I do find that quite conical. And they say that I'm like man. I didn't need to hear that. I just fished a month without a grab.
Speaker 1:I just broke a three-year drought, yeah, for winter steelhead. Three years, you know. Now I I think I know what I'm doing like I tie good flies. Here's what's really.
Speaker 1:What's really hard is you had David on the podcast maybe a year or two years ago and you know winter steelhead and you just like your spot, my spot, your spot, my spot. There are two weeks in a row where, like he got a fish and then the next week we came back to the same spot. I'm like, yo, I get this spot, man, cause I had caught a fish there before, like three years ago nothing. And then we go to the next spot and he's, and he's up and it's like some spot I've never even thought about, never even wanted to fish. Yeah, I think I'm on Like, oh man, he's like literally the flip of a coin decided the day and uh, you know, he had that, that. That said his winner off. He had like an amazing winner and I got blank for my like third year in a row. Yeah, it was that. That's the difference, right, like who got to swing that fly through there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a, and I've David shout out that man. He's given me some really good tips. He's been a an awesome person. I love chatting with him. I've had him on quite a few times. Um, you know, cause, like for the first year it was always someone else. Like every time I recorded it was always a different person. And then um year two, I did, uh, the swingers party where I was having like kind of a group of people come on, um, all about you know, swingers party. This was a sex ed, this was about fishing, so swing, that's not the bad. And they you know David dropped a lot of good information. A few of my other buddies dropped really good stuff too.
Speaker 1:And like just chatting with people, cause I know the people out here that I know and I only you can't fish with everyone, so no, no, no and you, and the more information you have right, the better you are, and even on your own home waters like trying someone else's strategy. My work for you.
Speaker 2:And and David gave me some I heard the strategy of like, if you get a grab or like a sniff or something that you're like oh, that was probably a fish or a steel head to take two steps up or three steps upstream and one step back. Have you ever tried that? Well, he, he, he mentioned on podcast and last year it worked for me three times where I actually ended up getting the grab After I thought I might have had. You know, it was either a bump of rock, which then I'll just keep fishing, or it was a fish. And so, yeah, you get like kind of like a tug or something that just felt maybe more fishy than than not, and so you take two steps, three steps upstream and one step back. They're not like massive step, just normal steps, and I guess what that does is as the fly.
Speaker 2:So your first cast that actually got the bump. The fish might have moved a distance for it, yeah, and by then kind of lost interest but kind of, you know, touched it in a sense. But then taking those steps back and one step back, same fly. I don't remember him saying to change flies or anything, but that could be a strategy too. Yeah, then just reswinging that. So now that fish is, you know it's moved. It was kind of willing. Now he sees it again and he's like I hate that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's in its face right now.
Speaker 2:And it's in its face now. So I did that three. Well, I do that every time now, if I think I got a bump and it worked for me three times last year where I actually had full hook up and then, yeah, there was not. So, out of six fish that I hooked last year, five of them weren't on for more than a 1.5 seconds kind of deal, and then one of them was on for like 10 seconds and every time was just like, okay, there's still another two weeks of this. You know that kind of mentality where I was like, oh, damn it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it was those little like techniques and then being able to share information with people. I mean this podcast, I've learned so much. I've, you know, talking to so many people. I get the opportunity to like hear different strategies or you know what people are tying, how people perceive you know what they're doing and it's definitely given me a bit of an edge, I guess, from just me fishing by myself and that's like I love fishing with friends. Yeah, I generally am always with someone. Very rarely actually go fishing by myself, mostly because it's weekends that we get to go out and then it's like someone's going to message me or I'm going to message someone to see what they're doing, but that sharing knowledge is such a powerful thing. I mean that same friend I was talking about who was at his house yesterday for the birthday party I guess this was off air.
Speaker 2:But when I taught him I was already maybe two, three years into fly fishing. But that first two years was me knowing nothing and basically trolling on lakes, yeah, you know, not understanding what I was doing. And so by the time I was teaching him, I had taken a couple of courses online and, you know, I still didn't really know what I was doing, but I knew enough to finally get into some fish. Yeah, so when I taught him, he started from that point of knowing how to get some fish, at least on lakes. And then I took him out pink fishing, like pink salmon fishing, and then I took him out for, you know, on the river, and then, you know, he started swinging for salmon and steelhead, and so in the same amount of time, like from when I taught him to now, he is just a well oiled machine, you know.
Speaker 2:So that like ability of learning from someone, I you know. So now, whenever I'm fishing with anyone, I don't care if they're better than me or not. I'm like what do you have to offer? What can I siphon off of you? You know what I mean? Yeah, so did you. When you got into spay fishing, did you have like, who is your mentor or who are you fishing with? Were you fishing with someone that already knew what they were doing?
Speaker 1:So, uh, david and I kind of started learning at the same time Okay, we actually in gin. So we did this thing, we started this little club and we met up at Deadman's Ferry, which is here in Eugene, and we would just swing, and I'd bring my daughter sometimes and we would just like swing through the summer, we. And then we eventually titled our like our group text, deadman's Swingers Club, and then I think that like grew into a little thing where Jim has some like stickers and stuff. But, um, no man, I, uh, I, my best friend and in California and uh my closest fishing buddy here, david, we just talked about kind of and I were starting right about the same time. He was probably like six months, maybe a year ahead of me as far as the curve goes, but uh, I was kind of learning like right along with same as as he is and I'm not near as good of a caster as he is because he's like really insane about all of that stuff and being a technician. But uh, yeah, it was just cool to like go with people that are like sort of learning at the same rate. And you know, like anything else, man, if you go with people that are slightly better than you. You're just going to keep getting better. Yeah, um, and so I was able to have I was, I was lucky enough to be like low man on the total pull, whether I was on a trip or whatever, and I was just learning all the time.
Speaker 1:And at this point I think I fish more than most of those dudes that were my mentors before you know what I mean. Like, um, I probably fish two or three times more than my buddies in California. David and I fish a lot together here. So that's been just like just a growing friendship and a growing like um, you know, he helps me a lot with my cast and I'm able to like sort of help him, not necessarily with the technique stuff, but like I do a lot of photography with him and sometimes in the photography with him he like notices some stuff. He's like oh, I didn't know that I had my like hand here, I didn't know it's the rod flexed at this point here, and like he changes some of his cast up because of some of that stuff and, um, it helps him out a little bit, which is kind of interesting as well. Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 2:I've set up my phone a few times, just like on a rock, just to kind of see um, you know what am I doing? I, you know, like anyone, you get those days. Or you're just a, a sniker, you know you're shooting lasers, and then you go like the week later and you can't even roll up your flyers. So then you're like, what's happened? What's happened in this week? Um, so yeah, I've set up my phone a few times, and that was another thing David said is like just seeing yourself in what you're doing, Because you may think you know one way. And then when you look at your phone, you're like, oh, wow, I'm like blowing my anchor here because I'm doing this or whatever it may be, but or I do all. Sometimes people are all top hand.
Speaker 1:They're just like yeah, or they're like coming too far across and they're you know they're going to hit themselves in the head soon. There's so many variables with what we do, you know, but I think that's a good one. That's one of the things we're like. I was talking, I took a newbie out on one of my buddies, dave. He's a teacher and he's Bay fished a little bit.
Speaker 1:We went out on the Northamka and man like the Northamka is not to be fucked with. Really, it's like straight up PhD of of steelhead fishing. You can't weigh too deep cause you're not going to be able to get a lot of the stuff. You can't weigh too deep cause, you know, if you take the wrong step, you're in 20 feet of water. Wow, you know, like it there's just like shelves. But also, like I, what I tell people is it's a river designed by steelhead to mess with fishermen. You know, if steelhead could design a river to like make it impossible for them to catch, it would be the Northamka man. Crazy. It was cool to see him like make mistakes, but in struggle yeah, it was. It was cool to see like to be able to just help him like tiny little bits. You know, yeah, man, it was. It was cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and out of all those photos that you did send me, I was like you definitely have it, have you always been?
Speaker 1:into photography. I started I was in Wisconsin still not necessarily space stuff and I'll be honest, man, wisconsin is not as photogenic as as the Pacific Northwest. You know what I mean? Yeah, like Wisconsin is beautiful. There's just like forests all around. But as far as like getting shots of people casting I mean you're talking about tiny streams and like 10 foot cast but when you think about like space fishing, it's just beautiful, it's like made to be photographed. Yeah, it was fishing, even fishing for 24 inch beautiful brown trout.
Speaker 1:In Wisconsin, wild fish are like it's kind of ugly man, and you're just on a stream about 10 feet into a mud hole Kind of.
Speaker 1:I mean not really a mud hole, but like it's just different. Yeah, it's different man, I mean you're throwing it into like a hole in a pasture, like there's cows behind you and stuff and that's also beautiful. But so I started I've been doing that for about since 2015. I got my first camera and started doing some stuff and then I've worked with some companies doing some photography for Rio and some photography for Reddington a little bit, and for outcast boats. Yeah, like you have a water master. Yeah, and I think that's one of the companies that makes different boats than the water master, and I have a couple of other boats that are awesome, man, and I love honestly like one of the cool things that you said about being fishing with somebody else is, instead of just like sitting there waiting for someone to get done, I can bust out the camera and like get some images or get some cool content of them fishing or maybe catching fish, or even just like the high five after the hug or some of that stuff is pretty sweet yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's one thing I was like. Like Euro fishing, I find, is a lot more like people are no one's sitting around, just like enjoying the scenery in a sense. Yeah. And I find it a lot more like oh, I'm going to cast here, I'm going to cast here, I'm going to cast here. Oh, you're fishing that spot, I'm going to go over here. You know where it's like.
Speaker 2:You get to a run with your buddies and you're like, okay, you know this is a short run, so let's, I'll run it through first, then you can run it through. Or it's like a long run and it's like, okay, you work the top section, I'll work from this point down, you know, maybe rotate or maybe move on, so you get a little bit more time to just where you're sitting and watching. And so I've been finding myself and I don't think I take like amazing photos by any means, but I do find myself now being more like, ooh, what if I like kind of crouched over here and, you know, got this angle or something, and yeah, there's been some cool photos that have come from that. But yeah, it's a lot more like I don't know, I feel a lot of peace. Like you know, I just was fishing for cutties. Yesterday and today sea run cutties. You stand, you cast quite a bit, or you can like wait and try to see them, but they don't always show themselves, so like you get to stand there all day long. They're all ninjas, exactly, and you know, if you see one fish, there's probably a bunch more. So it's like, and then if you're with a group of friends and one fish surfaces, you got all the people going to catch that one fish.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's one thing that I like, when I, before I started guiding, I had a lot more pressure on myself to catch fish or to like. You know, there was more of a pressure in my mind. And then I remember when I, when I got the call that I was allowed to guide as long as I got a boat obviously I'd gotten forgetting a boat as quickly as possible, which happened. And then I like started guiding and I remember the first day I guided, I did, I like I did feel some form of pressure, like, oh yeah, I'll be doing this all the time, all good. And then you know, even like though I'm not fishing, but I'm still like cast there in that, right there, yeah, and they do that and they get a fish. I'm like that's a good feeling, but so I can live by curiously through that. So I just don't feel that pressure. Like you know, even when I get to a system, I'll I'll watch it more, I'll look at it more, I'll like look up and be like damn, we're in a beautiful place right now.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Yeah, man, stay. Fishing is like its own weird cool little animal and I really it's the same thing, man, with the buddy. It's better. You know you get to just like sit back and enjoy some time, whether you let them go through it first and you're going through second, or breaking it up, or honestly, that's what's cool about having a camera. You know it's like you have stuff to do with your ADHD brain, like me. When you're not actually fishing, you know you're like, oh, let's get this angle or whatever. It's pretty sweet.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, we're like when I first started spay fishing the sides from the cast. What's your kind of thoughts that go through your head with, like you're swinging and do you see water and be like, oh yeah, I need to definitely slow this down, or this probably need to speed it up, or do you usually just kind of bomb it out there?
Speaker 1:I think I find myself constantly surprised where fish hold. Most of the time I'm always looking for like slower water, right, a lot of times like you're in fast water. A lot of times that I'm spay fishing, I'm in a boat in fast water and you pull over when there's slow water and you're like there's going to be a fish either in that seam or maybe in this slow water. So I'm always looking for that. Yeah, I don't really. I honestly I think I find myself surprised.
Speaker 1:The fish I caught yesterday was in sort of a shallow riffle, even though it's winter fishing, right Like this fish, but it had come up like kind of a falls area and pulled over in some like slower water but it, you know, three or four feet deep but it definitely had some like chop on top and unless you really paid attention you might not have like swung it maybe you know 15 foot full, 15 foot in length, so you might put maybe five or six gas in there and I got lucky and there's a big beautiful female in there, I don't know man. I find myself well two things. I find myself like consistently getting data like oh, this run always holds fish, I don't know why. And also I find myself like finding different spots where fish hold, where I'm like, constantly surprised, yeah. So at the same time, I'm getting data like, oh yeah, there's always going to be a fish here. I'm also getting data that says like they could potentially be anywhere, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and our system, I honestly don't know. I know you don't work in kilometers, but I don't know the exact amount of kilometers, but from the ocean to the lake it's probably like a 30 minute drive. So we're not. This isn't like a crazy long system obviously bends, and all that at a time when you're actually on the water. But we have a lot of gear guys that go down the system. There's a lot of guides that do just gear fishing.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of people that just do pin fishing in general, and I've been realizing more that they just fish such like just different water than us, obviously, because yeah, yeah, yeah, two colors and so and I'll be, like you know, rolling down and I see these guys pulled up and they're fishing this like super fast scene with like not even that slow of water next to it, and it just makes my brain twitch a little bit because I'm like man, if we took this whole system and just drained it out and we marked where all the fish were, I'm fishing this like percent of a percent, basically, of the water that I can fish. So it's, you know, like you were saying earlier, it's swinging, for steelhead is not the most effective way, you know, obviously.
Speaker 1:No, no it's like one of the. It's probably the least, it is definitely the least, yeah, but you know it's interesting. That I thought about recently is that like you're not necessarily looking for the best steelhead water when you're swing fishing, you're looking for the best swing water, 100% yeah, like there's going to be fish in that super deep fast hole. I'm like you can't fish that, can't even get close. No, but you need to find like a good swing water. You need to find that slow water where there's likely a fish there and it's sitting in this slow water and when that fly comes across it's going to grab it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which that's one of the things where you know like we're both relatively new, I think, to swing fishing and those people that are guides. You know I can think of all the knowledge that the guides on the North Amquah have in wintertime and like the flows that I was just seeing yesterday, like so many of the runs that I really enjoy fishing in the wintertime were a foot high to where I was up to my belly button, like barely able to cast two thirds of the distance I can normally cast because the water was so high and a couple of casting them like dude, this water is moving too fast like this is not a good run right now. We should not even be here, you know, I wonder, like all that knowledge that those guys have, like people that have been on that river for 15 years or 20 years, even at just like certain depths, that they know exactly where to go toward me? I'm still learning, and I caught a fish yesterday, like I sort of know what I'm doing, but compared to those guys, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that was a big thing for when I like started guiding, I wanted to guide for a long time and kind of put it on the back burner because I was like there's no way I would be able to do that. You know, it's like I'd need years and years of more than I have now, but it was right around the time I was trying to. I was changing my mindset on life in general from like a little bit of a darker way of thinking to a more positive way of thinking and one of the big things in there was, you know, you only need to know like 10% more than someone to to teach them anything Like you don't need even 10% more, you can know 1% more and you could teach someone something. So that was kind of like my big like push to like okay, I am ready. And then when the guide I worked for Vancouver Island fly fishing shout out Ray, you know, when he gave me the opportunity to do it, it was kind of like, oh my God, I'm doing this. And then I was like I'm super scared because I was like, fuck, he's had how many years of fishing. Like he lives on the river basically, and he's been fishing that you know, like he has so much more knowledge. And then you know, my first season he was, like you did, amazing man, like all the customers were happy, everyone got fish. You seem happy, like everything worked out really well. And then he's the one that I followed out to Cranbrook. So he got me a job out there and then I did very well. They asked me to come back for the full season this year.
Speaker 2:So you know, and I like you're kind of saying you know, like as long as you're with people that are better than you, you'll continue to grow and get better. But when you're looking at people that you know have 15 years on the Encore, you know 15 years on this river or that river, you've never even like I went to Cranbrook. I'd never been to Cranbrook. You know I never fished for West Slope cutthroat. I'd never taught someone how or I've kind of taught someone how to dry fly fish, but I never really had that opportunity to like do it daily. And so I was like, oh right, you know, so it's a little, it's a mind boggling thing, but at the end of the day, you know, have your fly in the water and hope for the best is where you should start and the knowledge will come slowly.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'm at the going back to like talking about the runs and like how you're picking, like nice swinging water. It kind of ties into like the whole fact that you know and I've talked to, like I said, many of people that confidence thing. You know you see that right water and you're like okay, and then you like you get your fly out. You're like this is the fly for this run. You know you make a cast, it just lands and swinging, everything's beautiful, it's all tying in together and you don't get a fish. You still felt amazing, you still felt like you were doing the thing. But now when I look at runs, obviously I'm like okay, yes, this is swinging water. But last year I was fishing with someone that I also work with, guiding Dan Taggart, and he got me to pull over in some spots that I was like what, why would we fish here? You know you can't swing this water. He was like, yeah, of course you can.
Speaker 2:You can swing anything in theory If you get even tiny little holes and little butts and I got, you know, I said I've been fishing some water that I wouldn't normally fish, whether it be faster, whether it be whatever it may be, and not to say that I've been, you know, not in them all of a sudden. But I'm now starting to kind of branch out of that perfect run to swing in where I'm like you know, there's three boulders over there in this run and I can stand on this bank. I'm gonna swing it, you know. And so that's a thing that I'm putting into. My mindset is like, okay, you know, I see all these gear, guys fishing these things, places that I can't fish, but they're fishing water that I wouldn't, you know. Based off of the knowledge of what I'm doing, I would assume there wouldn't be fish there, but there is. There are guides that have been guiding for who knows how long fishing that water. So, yeah, it's definitely. You know, breaking out of that one mindset of like this is the only place that they hold, I think has added to a few few grabs here or there.
Speaker 2:But one of my favorite runs there's like three of them on on the system that I fish for winter steelhead and I love when it's like a corner and a nice sandy corner and then it kind of swoops back further and there's that drop off. Whether I catch a fish or not, I just like I have to swing, I'll be late, I'll be like, oh shit, I'm supposed to be home in 10 minutes and I have a 45 minute and my wife needs me home now. I'm fishing it. I'm sorry, babe, like, yeah, traffic was terrible. I don't know what I mean, but like when I see that type of run whether it's like that corner with like a long swinging section, but it moves back and it's a drop off I've had it happen twice where I've gone fish out of that scenario, but that is like the bread and butter in my mind when I see that run, I'm just like I don't, I don't care if there isn't a fish there. That is going to be such a good feeling when I, when I'm done swinging that thing. It's funny, though, because, like you know, we went out my reel blew up on me last time. I went out swinging. What do you? What is it? It's, yeah, my brain's working great because it's late.
Speaker 2:It's a sage something, or rather, it's a reel. A reel, yeah, it's. I mean, I bought it actually originally for my, my streamer rod, but it was a 910. My streamer rod is an old blank Someone made me that rod so it's an older blank, so it's heavier, so it was really hard to find something that have balance with it. So I put a 910 on it and it balanced beautifully and you know, I got the muscles. I'm not worried about the extra weight.
Speaker 2:So, anyways, I I was going into steelheading and I was like, well, I shouldn't just put that reel away for a whole season. So I used it but it was like minus five. There was no real reason to be. It was like, you know, four degrees for weeks and weeks in the morning and then all of a sudden it was like negative bunch of snow on the ground. There was no reason for me to really be out there besides from I'm crazy. And so I went out and my, my reel nearly blew up. I had to send it back to get repaired and it was a whole thing, but reel blew up. I'm sitting there on the bank like trying to fix my reel. It's basically now a pin reel. It just freely spins, cool yeah.
Speaker 2:And my buddy's fishing. And I was like, have you ever tried to explain to someone what we're doing right now. Have you ever gone like someone? Be like, oh, would you do this weekend? Be like, oh, I stood in a freezing cold river for about 10 hours, woke up super early, got home late, was exhausted, had to deal with all this, like gear that I had to put away Like wouldn't make sense. They'd be like what do you mean? Man that was at home relaxing watching Netflix, clean the house? You're out there in a cold river, why?
Speaker 1:You know I was. I was recently doing the same thing. I was like messing with my fifth graders and I was like, yeah, so I really am hoping for this weekend, you know a chance where I can go stand in this river. That's like 40 degrees, you know, probably raining, It'll be like 35 degrees outside. I'll be swinging a fly just so that I can get the chance of hooking this poor innocent fish so that I could reel it in and I can hold it just for just for a few seconds, maybe, take a picture of it and then let it go so that it can go like spawn after that. And they're all just looking at me like what I'm. Like I know it's really weird. You have a weird teacher man. Yeah, it's a weird thing that you love to do, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think he needs help. No, it's 100% true, though. I mean, even my one buddy who I work for, I've taken him out to fly fishing a few times and I was like, how do you like it? And he's like, yeah, it's okay. I mean, it seems challenging and, like you don't keep the fish. So I don't understand why he likes going out on the ocean and catching fish and taking it home and cooking it. That's his yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean it's not a fish either, right? No, there's hatchery fish here on the Willamette that like if I catch a hatchery fish man, that thing is coming home.
Speaker 2:Never had steelhead no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hatchery steelhead. They're also not that great, but I feel like it's my duty to remove them from the system. Yeah, if there's any wild fish in there, I'm just going to like sorry bro, yeah, you deserve to die. You are not a wild fish. Yeah, we found a couple of recipes that work well. One of the best ways is you smoke it. That's what I try. Pull it in slow and then you know what you do. You mix it with the cream cheese and you have some steelhead dip. You get some crackers. Ooh, cream cheese, smoked steelhead Beauty. I mean, honestly, it's really not that great of a fish. Yeah, eat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well then I did like commercial fishing for salmon. So I've had lots of salmon in my life, fish salmon on the ocean, way, way before I ever got into even the thought of. I remember the first time I even knew there was fly fishing out. There was like a week before I went, basically you know what I mean. I didn't even know. Like I saw photos but it never like was registered in my head what they were doing, like they're doing, yeah, exactly Like I'd see the rod and I just like nothing. No comprehension there.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I was like you know I saw flies at the shop and stuff, but like it never crossed my mind like, ooh, I should try this and tell one of my buddies we're like always doing a power bait and like worms off docks for trout at lakes, and he was like or like bass fishing and he was like, hey, man, we're going up to Campbell River to fish for some pink salmon and I still to this day have no idea. But it was just like you do that on the fly, you're supposed to fly fish for them and that's how it all started for me. So it's kind of a funny. I lost my other train of thought, but it was kind of just a funny way of you know, just a light went on in my head and, kind of like you, you know, did gear fishing for so many years and I still actually haven't picked up a gear rod to fish and probably like three, four years now. But I'm on the ocean and actually that's not true.
Speaker 1:I was just in Costa Rica and we were in the middle of a like a yellow fin pod and I was we caught yellow. Actually I brought. I brought a nine weight and I hooked up the yellow fin, brought it all the way to the boat and then it took one last run and then popped off because I only had 20 pound maxima. The guy was like you have 40 pound, right, and I was like I don't have 40 pound, I have 20. He was like that might work, yeah, until I got it close. And then you know the fish, when it sees a boat or a net or a gaff, it did like takes off and I was like oh boom, but we caught like five, so it was fine. But all of those other ones run gear, yeah, but also kind of big ass mahi, so that was. But that was all on gear man.
Speaker 2:I bet that mahi Is it more beautiful than in pictures, Like they just you see, I mean they, they, they fade quickly.
Speaker 1:You know like you pull it in and they're just beautiful and I mean they die fast. You know they're the one we call so big that the guides they didn't want it like hurting them, so they like killed it immediately. I mean they're like sliced, sliced the gills immediately because they knew it was going to be food. Yeah, and we had. We had another chance of another mahi that we had. It was even bigger than one One I caught. I think it was like 35 inches. I'm like like a three foot mahi. It's sweet. I wouldn't call it a bowl, but it was awesome.
Speaker 1:We had another one when we were trolling Dude I think. I think it literally left 15 foot in the air cross and we all my wife and I watch really go and the captain's like no, it's off. It was just like on, jumped 15 foot out of the water like across, and then it was off and we're just like there, dude's next level. Yeah, it was really cool. It'd be sweet to go out there with like fly rod specific. But I was more like let's catch some fish to eat, yeah, with my family, and then maybe I can, you know, throw my fly rod out there a little bit.
Speaker 2:See, and I think that's kind of like you know how my buddy he wants me like If you're going out there to catch fish to eat, you know, or at least if that was my mindset I would probably just pick up a gear rod, because I'm like I'm yeah, yeah, yeah, you're trying that much.
Speaker 1:No doubt it's more effective more effective, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just simpler, but Maybe not so much for salmon. One, like you know, right in the estuary, especially like pink salmon, if the salmon are there, I'm. You know, I can't guarantee it, but I'm pretty darn confident I'm going to get a handful of them. Yeah, but if you're out in the ocean, like I always, whenever I go on the ocean now, I always bring my fly rod and and Either just let it wash in the prop or in. Yeah, anyway, sorry, I'm getting loopy now, we will wrap it up shortly but yeah, so I'll always bring the fly rod, but I'm still going to, you know, once the salmon hits the downrigger or whatever, I'm still going to grab that rod and reel it up.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I've been so focused on on fishing and then obviously on fly fishing in general. But yeah, it's definitely. I found myself a little bit more this year, just like less stressed about the fish but more trying to enjoy the journey, and it's been way less pressure in my brain. So I don't know, did you put a lot of pressure on yourself while you were learning a little? You're trying to get out there, or you're like, oh, I have to get this, or, like you? Did you feel that, or are you pretty nodding?
Speaker 1:No, because I think, like my intro into fly fishing specifically was like Both fish. You know, okay, I like little nymphing. The way when I started fishing the rivers or so it was called Sodom Brook it was due to it was like four and a half feet across. Yeah, I didn't even use a bobber. Like if you use a bobber you were gonna spook every fish in the run. So I just put on one nymph and the lightest cast I could and caught little tiny brookies and maybe little Browns.
Speaker 1:And then I moved to Wisconsin and then all sudden I was catching like fish, chonwally butters, and it was super easy. And then I moved out here, you know, you can catch McKenzie rainbows, and then all sudden it steelhead fishing. That's when it was really hard, that's when I was like what the hell? And then everyone tells me like, oh, you should have been here 20 years ago. You know, like the old timers, what they always say it should have been here last week, but should have been here 20 years ago when the runs were like 5% of their historical average instead of just half a percent of their historical average.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, my it's my intro to like the whole fishing, fly fishing thing, especially when I got to River, not so much the lakes, I mean the lakes, you know I've. I like lake fishing. I wish we had a better stocked breed, like we get the Wow, I'm just forgetting every important word that I want to say or something anyways. Well, there's a panask and like the interior, which are Really good fighting fish, and then in the interior as well of BC they also put, like black waters, rainbows these are all rainbow species and we get Frazier Valley on the island and Frazier Valley Rainbows. They Kind of fight like a boot, you know, like they go that way and then that way. But like the NASCAR Big fish, they grow big, they love Cromnids, they jump a bunch, they run hard. Blackwater are just a hard fighting fish as well. So the lakes on the island don't have that much appeal anymore for me, and so when I got into fishing on rivers, that's where I was like this is my jam, this is what I want to do. I pretty much started with winter steelhead. So when I got into nim thing, when it started warming up and we weren't fishing for steelhead anymore, I Was, you know, using a dry line and and nymphs. Our river is not really considered, it's not considered a dry fly river. You can get them on dry flies, obviously, and like you will see hatches, but it was nothing like when I went out into the interior to in Cranbrook and Cranbrook is pretty close to the border of the US, so like it's, you know, dry fly it's. It's world-renowned for its dry fly fishing for sure. So it was always nymphing. And then when it became winter time and I was still just using a dry line and Heavier nymphs, I wasn't like in them, it wasn't like great fishing or not winter, I should say more like fall, as it was cooling down and you know October and stuff, september, october, november.
Speaker 2:So then when I got introduced to your own nymphing, the whole game changed because our rivers not super wide and Generally it's fast, if you know, there is a decent flow going and so getting down is like your number one thing. So your own nymphing. Then I was like I'm the best in the world, no one can, no one can top this. I'm the biggest trucker cat. And then, of course, you know then season slightly changed, fish or done eating eggs, and I'm like, oh, I suck at this. You know like that whole cycle Kind of started so yeah it's.
Speaker 2:You know it's not mandatory to do your own nymphing on a river by any means, but if you want to have a successful day when it's higher flow, you know that's, that's where most people will go towards, just because of how effective it is. And you know there is there is a slight you still get. It's not like space fishing where you get that like peaceful reward, let's say, but when you cast out and hit that seam and you're running through and you already know there's a fish somehow and then he grabs and you're just like on a more, you start to learn where the brown trout like to sit and you pretty much can like pull up the same brown trout a few times in a year and you just know like that's a satisfying feeling. But the, the whole getting down and stuff was Like the biggest hurdle.
Speaker 2:You know, when I got introduced to tungsten beads I was like holy shit, this is insane. Like you get down like that and you know you freaking there, he is there, he is there, he is so. And then you know you got introduced to, or understanding Spay fishing and swinging a fly morn. You're like holy shit, what do I know? Do I know anything here? And you go like months or, like you know, multiple weekends out and get nothing and it's like I don't know. If I was like five year into trying to catch a steelhead and had never gotten one, I probably would have given up. Well, like you know, I would have been like no, this isn't for me.
Speaker 1:But they always know they, they let you, uh, they give you enough action. They always keep you coming back. That's what I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they, and I didn't even think about like quitting. But if I've gone five years without touching anything, I would for sure I'd be done. No, yeah, I. I think within those three years I think I tailed three of my buddies fish, for it, literally a flip of a coin could have been me. You know what I mean. So then I'm like, yeah, I'll say that we caught those fish and uh, that's a very important point you just brought up.
Speaker 2:I am also now in In the the realm of considering anyone. I'm with our fish. If I caught the fish, that's my fish. Okay, you guys. But if, if you caught a fish and I'm with you, this is an us thing, totally. Um, it's like being married when, like, oh, we should take out the garbage Interesting. Yeah, that's, that's a mean, but yeah, it's uh, that's the cool thing too. I really like about steel lighting, because you know if one person catches it Like you said yesterday you got one You're like on, you're basically high on life. You're going to bed. You barely can sleep because you're like, oh man, and then it grabbed, and then it, you know, you're like freaking out about it still. Probably next week We'll still be thinking about it.
Speaker 1:I bet you, tonight I'll be thinking about the same thing, man, yeah exactly Uh.
Speaker 2:But then you like, you share that with your, your friends, like anytime I got one or my friend got one, you know it's like everyone like huddles around, like talks about it. You get so amped up and and you know that, drive home my, whenever I call my wife I guess girlfriend at the time. But whenever I call the wife and she'd, you know I'd be like hey, I was going on my way home and she'd be like didn't get one. But then if I got one, I'd be like, hey, babe, she'd be like you got one. You know what I mean. Like she could just tell by the sound of my voice which is you know. And then you see grown men turn into little kids. Hey, I go, what you know? They're freaking out everyone's, like they're surrounding you.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's pretty funny how Powerful that one moment can really be for you know a group of people. I Love the fact that. You know, even if I don't catch a steelhead, but if my buddy gets one on, or you know I see a photo that he posted or he sends me a photo or something, we're all on that same page now Like holy shit, man, that like One percent chance of a fish happening happened. Like that's crazy. Maybe not one percent, but you know what I mean like yeah, it's, it's a super cool thing, but yeah, I feel like it's it's it's getting late there and you got school tomorrow. Yeah, I got work tomorrow basically the same thing. Yeah, I bet you right now our water levels have dropped and it would be perfect, it's perfect.
Speaker 1:We should. We should both take a day off and go fishing. Tomorrow is what we should do, oh.
Speaker 2:I could, I would not be able to call in sick because my I saw my friend yesterday and we're having drink. You're not sick, bro.
Speaker 1:No but you might be. I would not be able to call in sick either. I got too much stuff to do, kids relying on you, so that's correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I really appreciate you coming on, though. It's super fun.
Speaker 1:Thanks, dude. Yeah, same, I appreciate you. You got a lot of insight. It's it's cool to talk about all this stuff, yeah well as far as the fishing in the future.
Speaker 2:I wish water levels are right for you and that you find some more steel out there.
Speaker 1:Thanks, dude.
Speaker 2:Yeah, next time with your out more often, see you, thank you. Yeah, cheers, and then yeah, next time you're with David, give him an extra pat on the back.
Speaker 1:for me You're like, this is a little I'll tell him we talked a lot about him a couple times. Yeah, these today, yeah, let him.
Speaker 2:Good, good, well, yeah, once again, I appreciate you coming on and I I hope you have a good season and I'm sure we'll continue talking so well, man, cheers, cheers buddy.