The Artisan's Tale: Crafting Heritage Fly Fishing Hooks with Garren Wood

Have you ever held a piece of history in your hands? Our latest conversation with a Corvallis-based hook-making maestro transports you back to a time when fly fishing hooks were a symbol of artful precision. In this rich tapestry of tales, Garren Woods reveals the meticulous process of transforming high carbon steel wire into vintage-style hooks, using techniques that feel like a revival of the Victorian era's craftsmanship. Our guest takes us through the detailed steps of tapering, chiseling, and shaping, artfully balancing manual dexterity and the efficiency of simple machinery. This episode is a treasure trove of knowledge for anyone fascinated by the intimate connection between angler, artisan, and the natural world.

As the discussion unfolds, so does the depth of our guest's passion for fly fishing culture. He shares vibrant narratives that explore the meditative allure of tying flies and the pulsing excitement of guiding anglers through pristine waters. His stories of parenting outdoor enthusiasts and striking a balance between work and passion projects bring a personal touch, revealing the vibrant life that thrives in the realms of fly tying, and outdoor adventures. If you've ever felt the pull of a river or the anticipation of a fish on the line, this episode will resonate deeply with your love for the sport.

Wrapping up our journey, we peer into the future, filled with exciting events and personal milestones. Our guest previews his upcoming attendance at renowned fly fishing expos and the cherished camping trips planned with family. We close with reflections on the unspoiled joy of discovering less-pressured fishing spots and the shared sentiments of the fly fishing community. It's a poetic conclusion to an episode dedicated to those who find solace in the rhythm of rivers and the craft of creating the perfect hook for the perfect catch. Join us as we celebrate the stories woven by every knot and every cast.


•Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/garrenwood?igsh=ZGo2cDYwOWxpcDc2

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

The, the process. Basically you dip the hook into that and then you wipe off the excess and then you bake it and by baking it hardens it and the you know it's. It's like they did, you know, hundreds of years ago to put the Japan in on the hook to protect the, you know, to keep it from rusting and to protect the hook itself and and at that point it, depending on the, the Japanning sometimes it takes a couple coats, depends on how thick you want it and how how much Japan you want it. So, and then you bake that for a couple hours and you have a hook.

Speaker 2: 1:03

How's it going, garan? Welcome to the podcast. Thank you Right on. So I guess where are you located. Let's start at that step.

Speaker 1: 1:14

Yeah, I'm in Oregon, in Corvallis, which is about 90 miles south of Portland.

Speaker 2: 1:20

Okay, cool, and have you lived there for quite some time, or?

Speaker 1: 1:24

For yeah, just over 20 years, nice.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Okay, you like to chase what mainly?

Speaker 1: 1:33

Um, trout and steelhead Would probably be my talk to right on.

Speaker 2: 1:40

How'd you get into fly fishing?

Speaker 1: 1:43

so growing up my dad fly fished and I he would take us fly fishing and he would tie his own flies and I've we'd, you know watch them at the kitchen table time flies and I got a Flytine kit when I was pretty young, probably ten or eleven, and that really took off. I grew up in Idaho so we we did a lot of dry fly fishing and rivers. That was probably our, our favorite. And Then in college Started going to like fly time shows by fishing shows. The local fly shop had tires at the Like Saturdays in the winter to go and watch and you know learned a lot from those and met a lot of you know nice people. And Then moved to Oregon post college and, you know, got got involved with the the fly time Exposed here and shows.

Speaker 2: 2:51

Yeah, that's pretty awesome, and Oregon is just a great place to be. Yeah, I guess Idaho as well. It's a great, two great places to be, if you like fly.

Speaker 1: 3:01

Yeah, Pacific Northwest is yeah wonderful.

Speaker 2: 3:04

Yeah, amen to that. Yeah, so something when I was looking over your page, like I mentioned to her off air is, first of all, you're an excellent fly tire, so I thought that was everything I saw in there was beautiful. But Once I realized that you're tired or you're making your own hooks, I was pretty impressed by that. So curious if you can just run me through Kind of how that process all started.

Speaker 1: 3:34

Yeah. So first of all it's a yeah, it's a very small niche. You know there's not a lot of people doing it. So how, how I got started? Just a little bit of background from it. I'm the third in line, sort of, in this process.

Speaker 1: 3:53

So Ron Reinhold started the business in 93, 1993 and he was an engineer. He built all the tools to and we get into that and you know he made hooks for I think it was about 13 years. And then he sold the business to Ron Lucas, who lived up in Portland and I had met Ron 20, 25 years ago as a fly tire he had. He had his own small fly tying materials business back then and I had called him up and he invited me over and that's, we had started, you know a friendship, you know, 25 years ago.

Speaker 1: 4:46

Then, a couple years ago, uh, ron was diagnosed with cancer and he wanted to pass along the, the hook, making knowledge and and business they. He was very Um I want to say secretive with a lot of his methods and stuff, um, because it was, you know, a business for him, um, and so I I did. I purchased the business a couple years ago and I was grateful that he um was a. I spent a summer with that on the weekends. Um, you know, learning the to make the hooks and and whatnot. Um, and you know, before he passed away last year. So that's the you know high level, how I, how I, you know, got into it and we can, uh, get into the, the details, if you want to learn more about the some of the process.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Yeah, I would love to. I was just thinking that, uh, so it all started from you watching your dad Ty flies. Here you are, yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool. Um, I am very interested and you don't have to give up a ton of secrets. But I am very interested on on the hook building process because, um, well, I guess I just never really thought about it. It's kind of like how it's made. You know, you watch such a simple thing get made and you're like, oh, that's crazy, that's cool. But yeah, so what? What is the kind of process? And maybe a few of the um Different materials, or I'm assuming, everything's steel unless it's a salt water thing.

Speaker 1: 6:30

Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm glad to share, uh, some of the details. So yeah, it starts out with um steel wire, that's a high carbon wire, and and it's in Round, it's in coils, I guess, large coils, you know they probably weigh, you know, I don't know, 20, 30 pounds, um. And then the first step is to, you wouldn't think that it's difficult, but to straighten the, the wire, um, I, who would have thought, you know, just a straight in wire itself is, you know, a trick in of itself. So, um, reinhold had built a machine to thread the wire through and it, you know, I don't know exactly what it does, you know it hits it to straighten it. Um, and then at that point, you, you, uh, reinhold, he had, he has, I, there's probably like 18 different uh hook styles that are, and these are all reproducing, like victorian, you know, age hooks, that's the whole idea, blind eye hooks. And so it, he has all the specifications on, um, how thick the wire should be, how you know the length the wire, the lengths of the points, you know the barbs, all of that. So the first step is to cut the wire to length of, depending on the size of the hook that you want to make, and then the process then goes um, it for a blind eye hook, there is a taper for where you would tie in the uh, the gut For the eye, and so, um, that that gets tapered, and and that's using a machine Basically it's a sander and the wire at this point is very soft. Well, it's soft so you can bend it pretty easily. You can work with it, um, and that puts the taper on it and then the.

Speaker 1: 8:30

The next part is cutting, uh, um, the barb into it and, uh, he again, there's a, there's a, not a machine, but a, um, a tooling that that rindhold built, where it will take, basically it's a, a metal chisel, and it will cut the barb into the hook. That's as simple as that sounds. It's one of the Precure things to do to to get the right, um barb length, to get the cut, the, you know, to the depth. You know that that is good, um, and it, depending on the size of the hook some of the hooks, you know, are rather large, and so cutting that the, the bar, you know, is a lot of metal sometimes too, so, um, you know it has to be very sharp. And then there is, after the, the barb is done and uh, there you have to, uh, do a rough um To make the point. It's just a rough point at this point, and that's basically using a round, it's, it's like a sander to to put in a rough point. And then From that point, um, there's jigs to um bend the hook into the right uh, uh style, and so each, each size and each um type has its own jig. So you know, there there's probably 100, 150 different jigs, depending on you know what choke you want to make, and so that basically bends it to shape.

Speaker 1: 10:12

And at that point the hook is still soft and so it has to be hardened. And so there is an oven it's about 1450 degrees is how hot it gets to harden the hook. And once it gets up there, you stick it in the oven for 30, 45 seconds to get it to that hot. And then you have to put it into an oiled a quencher, and that cools it down very quickly. But the hooks at that point would be very brittle, so you wouldn't be able to use them for fishing. So then they have to be tempered so that gives the a little bit of the spring to it, and so that uses a different oven and then heats it up to 460 odd degrees and you basically bake the hook to temper it and then you are able to. Then you know it won't break so easy, and after that you have to clean off the hook.

Speaker 1: 11:21

Those heating cycles cause a lot of the carbon to come out of the hook and so you know they're pretty messy. So they go through several. It's like not like rock polishing, but it's sort of like that where you put them in a tumbler or, and you know, clean them off and then you do all the fine detail work. So you make the points nice, you add gutters to them, you know if there's a little bit of reshaping to the barb, and then at that point they're still steel, and so the last step is to put the black finish on them which is called Japan or Japan in the hook.

Speaker 1: 12:16

Then it's a the process to make the Japan itself. Luckily I have a lot of it, because it's sort of not, you know it's very tough stuff it's made out of like basically what asphalt and you know other stuff and the process. Basically you dip the hook into that and then you wipe off the excess and then you bake it and by baking it hardens it and the you know it's like they did, you know, hundreds of years ago to put the Japaning on the hook, to protect the, you know, to keep it from rusting and to protect the hook itself. And at that point, depending on the Japaning, sometimes it takes a couple coats, depends on how thick you want it and how much Japan you want it. So and then you bake that for a couple hours and you have a hook.

Speaker 2: 13:23

Wow, yeah, that is definitely a little bit more than I thought. I don't really know what I was thinking prior, but something that kind of like stood out to me. There was one time where I got a pack of hooks and I found two within the pack that were soft edible and I just thought that was strange. But now, hearing the actual process, I realized that those must have somehow not got baked enough or they completely missed that step, or something weird Probably or baked too much and it became a kneeled wire again.

Speaker 1: 14:01

Yep.

Speaker 2: 14:02

Okay, so the other thing I was curious about. So first step is creating the taper on the eye so it can kind of fold into itself. I'm assuming that's what you were talking about.

Speaker 1: 14:17

Well, these are blind eye hooks, so these are hooks without eyes. Then you tie back, then they used silkworm gut that is twisted to create the eye, and so people using these hooks are usually replicating flies from a couple hundred years ago and so they want to be like the hooks were a couple hundred years ago.

Speaker 2: 14:45

Wow. So it's very. It's like fly fishing is already a niche. Then we're lying into like space fishing and like classic flies and stuff like that. That's super niche. And then we go a step further into like the most niche of niche, which is blind eye hooks. So when you said you were creating that taper at first, like the first process, is that just to have like a solid place to tie on to so it doesn't slide off.

Speaker 1: 15:13

Well, it's because when you tie in the eye it has a lot of bolt to it. Or tie in the gut, it has a lot of bolt to it, so it having a tapered eye creates less bolt. And you'll find hooks that are blind eye hooks, that don't have tapers. And then there's different ways. There's like marked blind eye hooks and that has like they have like indentures into them and that sort of holds them, but the taper is really just to make it a cleaner looking fly so it's not quite as bulky. Okay.

Speaker 2: 15:47

And then when you're talking about chiseling the the, the barb into it, so then you just kind of have like a wire, that straight down or that's you know, strained out one side, it's got that taper, and then the chisel would kind of come in on an angle and just very, you know, delicate in a sense, with a lot of force, I guess, kind of slice into it on the right angle so that it kind of lifts up and isn't too thick but isn't too thin.

Speaker 1: 16:20

Exactly so. Yeah, it's a jig that has the chisel in it and then it has, you know, the settings on, depending on how thick the wire is and how. You know how big the hook is and then you know how far it cuts into it. So, like larger hooks, you cut more into it to create a larger barb. Smaller, smaller hooks, you know, will have a smaller barb, and so then you know you, you have the, the height, the, and then the how far you cut into it, the, the depth as well.

Speaker 2: 16:56

Wow, yeah. And then curious about the, the jigs that actually form the, the shape. So the wire at this point is still malleable. And then you're saying that you have roughly a hundred jigs to to bend the hook on. Is this like a little? I don't know, for some reason I was imagining like a little piece of board, like wooden board, with like pins on it and you wrap it around. But are you building these by hand? Is this all kind of by hand or is it mostly machine cross set?

Speaker 1: 17:29

Well, so the to do the taper, that is a machine. And to rough out the point, that's also a machine. That is, when I say a machine, it's like a sander and then, but it's still by hand, you're putting it in and you don't just put the hook in and it does it. You have to. It's like woodworking. You know you have you're using a, you know some machines to to, you know to form them. But it's not like a, like a factory type machine where you just put in all the metal and then it, you know, does everything for you. Yeah, okay, yeah, so that, yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:10

So the jigs, like you were mentioning, the jigs are metal, just you know, because they stand up to wear better, and Reinhold and Lucas both made. You know Lucas made it. You know some, several styles of his own. So he created the jigs, he had some metal working background and and they, they just they're, you know, probably like a quarter of inch thick, and then they just go in the shape of you know the style of the hook that you want, and so there's a like you can't just use your hands to bend them around. Most of the steel is too, too strong for that. So there's a machine. That you know, not a machine. There's a jig, you set the jig in and then it you take it and it and it you, you pull it around to. You know, bend it around it. That makes sense, yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:03

So the jig put into something that kind of holds it tight, and then the wire gets like pushed around it. Yeah, yeah, perform it. And so at this point, like you said, it was still malleable. Well, now, as you're kind of moving it around the the jig, once you like go around it and you let go, or you know, however that is, it doesn't just like spring back, it stays in that shape. And now you kind of lay out a bunch, then cook them and then, yeah, yeah, yeah it's.

Speaker 1: 19:41

It's definitely batch work. It's not just one at a time, because the it takes a while to heat up the ovens and stuff like that and you know you also just heating up the the higher temp oven. You know you know, once you heat that up, you'd want to do more than just one hook.

Speaker 2: 20:00

Yeah, probably takes time. And then electricity. Is it all electrical ovens, or is it?

Speaker 1: 20:07

Yep, yeah. So yeah, there's two different ovens the high heat oven with and then there the other ovens, sort of, you know, like a really old school. It's not, it's like a, it's like a kitchen oven that you would set on the counter. You know, it's like that big, but it doesn't have like a stove top on it, Because this isn't like when you're, this isn't something you'd want to do in your kitchen, because it it puts off them pretty bad smells. The Japan you know some of the chemicals that are used to, you know, in the Japan and stuff. So definitely I have several air filters in my shop and then open the windows as well to try to, you know, reduce any of the impacts, for that, yeah, I would never recommend doing it in your kitchen. Especially your wife would kill you. Yeah, exactly she jumps home.

Speaker 2: 21:06

You're just like no honey, oh, that's funny, yeah. And then the Japaning process. You mentioned that it's like some of the same materials that go into asphalt. Is that just like the I'd paved, but I don't know what? What really goes into the asphalt, though, is the plant guys that knew that. So if you can just kind of touch on that whole Japaning process like what?

Speaker 1: 21:37

is it? Yeah, the Japan. I've never made the Japan myself. It's quite a process to make, but it has like turpentine and then the asphalt and there's other stuff to. I've been told that it's a similar formula to what they used to make to when they painted the Model T's, like you know, back the old Fords back in the day. You know it's one color, black, and it's a similar. I've been told it's a similar material like that, because it you know, for cars you have to have a very tough paint. It's not just like the paint you paint on your house. You know it has to withstand the road and stuff. So that's along the lines of what it is, wow.

Speaker 2: 22:21

I am slightly more impressed by a hook. Now my whole thing is that's what I do on podcasts is I play with the hooks and brush the feathers. It gives me something to do, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:34

I was definitely a lot more involved in, you know, especially by hand, I'm sure the factory hook making is. You know it's all automated and stuff. But to make these it is a process to make them and that's why also they are pretty expensive. You know the cheapest hooks are $14 each for, you know, a handmade hook and you know they go up for some of the larger ones. You know $30, $40 for some of the larger ones.

Speaker 2: 23:03

Yeah, when you get into the classic stuff, I guess, especially if you get into the classic classics, you know something as old as 200 years. Yeah, things get expensive real quick. You know the feathers you got to use and everything, but now down to the hook as well. So do a lot of people like, what is the market for that? Like it's one of the first. I think I've seen it before. Actually, now that I really think about it, I've seen hooks without eyes on Instagram where, like it was tied in something for you know you tie your tippet too, but is there a pretty big group of people that are doing this that you know I've just never seen, or is it?

Speaker 1: 23:50

niche. It's pretty niche, I would say, for I would say it's a couple hundred to maybe a thousand people worldwide. Wow, that's cool, but they usually are really into it. So there's a flytine show, so to speak, that it's called the Atlantic Salmon Flytire's International, or ASFI, atlantic Salmon Flytine International. That has been held every couple of years and then COVID through a wrench in it, but it's been in Seattle and then in Canada and it's going to be in Calgary this year. So people from all you know, europe and Japan and all over the world fly in and hang out and tie flies through the weekend and it's open to the public. It's like a flytine show where you can go and watch people. So yeah, it's very niche but people are really into. You know, the people that are into it are usually diehard flytine people.

Speaker 2: 24:54

Yeah, 100%. What is it? It's in Calgary.

Speaker 1: 25:01

It's in September, mid-september, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:08

I'm going to be working in Cranbrook, which is only a handful of hours away, and then I'm heading to Calgary at the end of September to after my guiding season, so I was like I was interested.

Speaker 1: 25:20

Definitely keep an eye. I mean, I don't know where it will be in a couple of years, but it's something. If you're close to it, it's something to go visit and check it out. Seattle it's been in Seattle a couple of times. That's where it started. There's a fly club in Seattle, the Northwest Atlantic Salmon Fly group, that they meet monthly during the winter to do flytine for classic salmon flies and it's a pretty active group. You know started the tradition, so to speak.

Speaker 2: 25:58

Yeah, is that group on Facebook?

Speaker 1: 26:04

There is a Facebook page. They also have a website. Let me just….

Speaker 2: 26:10

Yeah, talk it up, I'm curious.

Speaker 1: 26:13

Yeah, it's nwsalmonflygildorg. Okay, you can also just search for Northwest Salmon Fly Guild and you'll find it.

Speaker 2: 26:23

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of classic style flies or something I've really been getting into lately. They definitely…. They caused me some frustration, that's for sure, but I do love tying them and I just think they look beautiful, but….

Speaker 1: 26:45

There's a lot of crossover from Steelhead as well. So if you have tied more classical Steelhead or hair wings and stuff like that, you can crossover pretty easily.

Speaker 2: 26:57

Yeah, okay, I've seen the classic salmon flies, especially the more intricate ones, kind of blow my mind and they're impressive. But yeah, I guess I'm more into the Steelheaded kind of variety of that. I live on Vancouver Island so I'm not dramatically far from you, but yeah, we obviously got Steelhead up here. So, yeah, that's pretty cool. And then you guys also do some different tools. What are the tools that you guys build?

Speaker 1: 27:32

So I sort of just happened to…. Basically, the bodkin is the one I've been doing, and there was another hook maker in Japan who would make bodkins out of…. Basically it's a hook and then the tip of it's a bodkin, and so that's where I got my idea. But instead of having the hook part do different designs on the ends to sort of be creative, and also from being able to hold it, they sit really well in the hand with the…. Having the metal turned it up, they're easy to pick up off the table as well, not like the small… even the hex ones that can sometimes be hard to pick up off the table.

Speaker 2: 28:25

This one tool right here is one of the most notorious for disappearing on the table while you're tying Scissors, for sure. But yeah, you know you're almost done or you see a hackle that you need to poke out and you spend like five minutes looking for it and then you put it down and it vanishes once again. So, yeah, when I noticed the ones you guys had up… how I had kind of like the wire that was wrapped… not wrapped in a ball, but, you know, formed in kind of a ball shape, I was like, well, that was… that's perfect. You know, that's something that would at least be a little bit harder to lose on the table while you're tying flies and they're unique, one-of-a-kind type of things.

Speaker 1: 29:11

you know, Everyone takes on it sort of its own form. Even I don't think I could replicate some of them, even if I tried.

Speaker 2: 29:21

Yeah, but you just kind of like… I guess it's you know, minus a few processes. It's basically the same, though, where you're sharpening the point into it and then you have the wire, and then you bend it up, put it through its first oven, then the second high temp oven, and then you're not Japaning on that one.

Speaker 1: 29:48

Yeah, I know, they are Japan. The black coloring is the Japan on them to give them… I mean, it will give them, you know, protect them and stuff.

Speaker 2: 29:57

Okay, maybe I just didn't notice, or I didn't notice and I've already forgotten. But yeah, I think that's cool too, because the black one just looks good.

Speaker 1: 30:08

But to give you an idea, like you know, the wire is malleable, but you know you can't… I like… with that thick of wire that's being made for those like you can't… I have to use pliers and whatnot. And even with using pliers, you know, just working them all get blisters, you know, by you know how hard it is. So you know, when I say malleable, it's not like you know… Not like aluminum, yeah, where you can just… yeah, some of the smaller wire is, you know, for the smaller hooks. You know you can bend quite easily but, like what's being made with the bodkins are… they're hard to bend.

Speaker 2: 30:50

Yeah, yeah. Well, the thought of losing like a $30 hook in my head, let alone the materials that you put on it, that would be a bit of a…. I lost like five flies yesterday, which is not really normal for me. It was just one of those days where, you know, that branch decided to take one or, you know, snagged up on random things, it was…. The water was pretty dirty, dup, and so sometimes I just didn't realize what was around when I was swinging into it. And you know, yeah, good recipe for….

Speaker 1: 31:26

Most of the…. I saw it. Yeah, Most of the hooks don't see water. Most of them are before the wall.

Speaker 2: 31:33

you know, in a frame I need a question Do those ones make it to the… to the waters?

Speaker 1: 31:41

There are some people who fish them, and they are made to fish because I mean going through the whole hardening and tempering process. You know that is what they would have done hundreds of years ago and that is you know what they would fish with. So it's not just a decorative piece there, it is… A function. You know it is functional. Yeah, it's just not likely for most people. You know fishing budget.

Speaker 2: 32:06

Yeah, no, that's, you know… I get what Probably I think it's like 20 hooks Alec Jackson's for… I don't even know. Geez, I don't want to look… Well, yeah, yeah, that's Canadian, though, so maybe a little less in American.

Speaker 1: 32:23

But yeah Hooks are getting, yeah hooks. In general, the prices are getting really up there. Yeah, a lot more expensive than when I started.

Speaker 2: 32:34

Have you had to do the same just because of cost of the actual metal that you're buying?

Speaker 1: 32:40

Well, when I bought the business there was enough metal for probably my lifetime. I mean to buy the metal. You know it comes in the 20, 30, 40 pound coils. So you can't, you don't just buy a pound of it. So I'm at least the last you know, the next 10, 20 years easily, I'm sure.

Speaker 2: 33:08

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 33:10

So it's just the cost of the business. And then, yeah, I haven't really… I'm charging what Ron charged, you know, when he finished and probably keep those prices for a little bit. But I'm also learning and still, you know, I'm not at Ron's level yet either. You know it's like with anything. You know it takes a lot of practice and most people wouldn't probably even notice. But you know, and I wouldn't have even noticed you know five years ago. But as you make them, you get an eye for what. You know what makes a hook a hook. And looking at the, you know the spears and the barbs and stuff like that, especially under like a magnifying glass, and it's like you know. So it's definitely a journey.

Speaker 2: 34:02

Yeah. So like, let's say, you made 10 in a row, or… what's the batch size you usually aim for, like how many are you going to bake at once, I guess, is more the question.

Speaker 1: 34:15

So the small oven you can bake probably, you know, half a dozen at a time. But the big oven it's about 40. So I usually try to do around 40 a batch just to optimize that. You know that's the most in the larger oven and I could probably figure out a way to do more. But you have to, you know, when you're baking them, like with the Japan, they can't be touching each other. They, you know. They have to, you know, be you have to be very careful with the Japan, because if they're touching each other with the Japan then it messes up the finish and you know you can't fix it from there and like Japan, you can't just take off. Like you know it's on there. So you either have to use some pretty harsh chemicals or you know, so it's easier to just start over at that point Is it kind of like does the Japaning process kind of fuse to the actual metal itself?

Speaker 2: 35:19

Like, does it bind to it or is it still like a coating?

Speaker 1: 35:25

Well, I mean, I don't know, you know, chemically, if it actually binds, but it seems like it does, like you know it. Yeah, it's on there.

Speaker 2: 35:41

Yeah, fair enough Now. It's definitely an interesting process. I would love to see it one day. Just because it's I don't know, I like hooks.

Speaker 1: 35:53

Well, exactly, it's one of those things where it's like and usually with fly fishing in general and fly tying you know you get more interested in it and it becomes the rabbit hole. You know you're going down and it's just like people with making their own rods and dyeing materials and stuff like that. There's a lot of different. You know things that you know you can go down.

Speaker 2: 36:17

Yeah, true that Out of, let's say, for the last oven you said roughly 40 is the number that you try to make them make the batch in, Are you, you know, assuming that the hooks aren't touching each other, and all that out of 40, do all 40, you know. Pass the test at the end. Or is there still ones that you're just like? Okay, this one, something went wrong, or?

Speaker 1: 36:45

Yeah, there's rejects and most of it is around the barb or what they call the gutter. So guttering the hooks, which they don't do nowadays but is like there's a very fine right around the base of the barb. There's a fine gutter, you know, that goes down the hook and from what I understand is that would help drain the blood from the hook, you know, after a fish, so it doesn't get caught up in under the barb. So modern hooks don't have it. But you know the older hooks you know would be guttered a lot of times.

Speaker 2: 37:33

So like the actual, so like the, I don't know what is that bottom section? If we're the point or the barb is.

Speaker 1: 37:43

Yeah, the point, the spear, yeah, and then it comes up into the barb.

Speaker 2: 37:47

Yeah, okay, and then in between, let's say the actual wire that turns into the spear and the barb, there would be like a little bit of a slit underneath it for lead to either side.

Speaker 1: 38:03

Exactly, and some people would gutter just one side, some people gutter both sides. You know Some are very fine, like you would be. You wouldn't notice it unless you're really looking for it. So, and then some are a little bit more defined and you know people have their preferences as well. Of you know they want a, you know, a really fine gutter They'd, or they want, you know, a more pronounced one. And even with the barb there's, you know preferences of you know, do you want it pointing up more? Do you want it more flat? You know, and that when you're making, you know, the classic salmon flies. The flow of the fly is really important and so you know it. It almost subconsciously, you know, can create the fly. You know how, how that is, and it's very subtle and it's all with a point also. There's also like a pouty point where it goes down a little bit, just a, just a little bit, and so that's called like a pound, a pouty point. You know is what I call it. So some people like that, some people like it more straight.

Speaker 2: 39:14

Have you ever seen like I'm just imagining like we got machines doing this, tools that we're using, all that? Have you ever seen someone make an hook like the old fashioned way, like without electric machines, or you know?

Speaker 1: 39:31

So there there are hook makers that do do that. The one in the fellow in Japan, yashiro, he does not use machines, and there's also a hook maker in Italy who doesn't. It does it all by hand as well. I haven't, I've seen Yashiro's, you know, do some of his work and it's pretty amazing. So I, and then there's some books that have some that talk through it a little bit. They don't, they don't have a lot of photos because you know, there weren't photos back then. So that that's, you know, sort of my you know knowledge about it. Yeah, but that's amazing that they did this 200 years ago, you know, with the fire and that's exactly what I'm thinking.

Speaker 2: 40:18

I'm like, oh my God, and trust Japan to be the one that was doing it, because it's yeah, I mean the, the craftsmanship that came out of Japan that far back is pretty, is very impressive. You know, between their blades that they're making or their knife making skills and swords and all that. But yeah, metalwork crazy, yeah, that's. That's a bit. It's very impressive to think about it, but very interesting for sure. So you know, now we've talked a little bit about that, I'm just imagining kind of your life right now. When did you kind of get into the classics? Because I'm assuming you know and you're, I think you said you were 14 when you got your fly tying kit.

Speaker 1: 41:09

When, how long after, like in college, when you started getting into the more kind of traditional flies or it was not so much in college I went I was in Idaho in college still and there wasn't a lot of steelhead and stuff. So when I moved to Oregon it was probably that transition from like steelhead getting in more into steelhead. And then you know the classical. There's a lot of blurry lines sometimes with some of that as well, and you know there's a lot of freestyle as well. That you know can it can be a steelhead fly or a salmon fly. You know, for a lot of them at least.

Speaker 2: 41:50

Yeah. Yeah, I'm a quite a bit of a freestyler. I don't generally follow patterns, I just like to make it off the top of my head. Sometimes they turn out looking great. Other times I'm like, yep, no, that's not it. But yeah, something about it was like, I don't know, I imagine it at work and then I get home and I'm like I got to get this. It's like an artist would have to get a picture out of their head onto a canvas, you know.

Speaker 1: 42:18

Yeah, and I go into like different depends on my mood, because I do a little bit of commercial tying and you know those are more of your typical patterns, but then, but then sometimes it's like you know I don't want to do that. And yeah, definitely, you know experimenting with different materials, colors and and to you know to come up with something you know new or different.

Speaker 2: 42:46

Yeah, 100%. I don't know. There's just so many combinations, let alone colors, that you can really do. But yeah, let's talk a little bit about the commercial fly tying. How did that all kind of unfold for you?

Speaker 1: 43:02

So it actually started back in high school. I always was motivated by the you know making some money and so I tied some flies for some of my teachers and looking back on I think they were just being nice, but but they encouraged it and you know I. And then in college I tied for some shops and also for you know some. There was a professor who you know bought, you know did a lot of fly fishing and bought a lot of flies. And then when I moved to Oregon I met a fellow, al Brunel, who was a commercial tire for half pounder down on the Rogue River and I started he'd have me help with some of his orders and then he ended up passing away and but I can continue to, you know, tie those. So that's that's probably where most of my commercial tying is going is for half pounder flies on the Rogue down here.

Speaker 2: 44:10

Okay, Would that be? I don't know. I've never fished the Rogue. It's one of those rivers that I would love to see, but would that be a lot of nymphs, dry streamers? What are we talking?

Speaker 1: 44:23

There's some nymphs, but there's also some more traditional steelhead, like green butt, skunks, and they're they're small, they're like in size, eight usually, and sometimes 10, golden demons, juicy bugs, brindle bugs. You know some of those patterns. And then the nymphs would be like a prince nymph and a like a hares hares ear. You know a lot of catas type imitations because they're actively feeding the half pounders, come back into the river and are actively feeding. You know they're. It's not just like steelhead, you know imitation, but you know they live in the river and are actively feeding again.

Speaker 2: 45:04

Okay, sorry, I don't know the half pounder terminology. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:10

So basically, it's an im, it's a steelhead that's been out to sea and they come back after you know a season and they're about, you know, 16 inches, 16, 14 to 18 inches somewhere around there and they will live in the river before they go back out to the ocean again, you know, before they're mature to, you know spawn. So it there's the rogue river, and then there's there's some also, I think, in the Klamath and Smith rivers as well. There's not a, you know, it's a very interesting. You know, not all the steelhead rivers, you know, don't do this. So, and I don't know why, why they, you know steelhead do that in, you know, these river systems.

Speaker 2: 45:58

There's probably scientists who do know that, but I don't know if it's just, you know the conditions that are in the river are better adapted for them to survive, or yeah, that is interesting Because I've definitely never heard of like we have we call them jacks, jack coho when they're, you know, not ready to spawn, but they show up to the river anyways, and then, as far as I know I might be wrong, but I think they go back out to the ocean. That's actually a question I've never really asked, so now I'm going to find someone that might know and I'll ask them that. But so I guess that could be, you know, our version of the half pounder, not a steelhead.

Speaker 1: 46:40

If you ever have a chance, I'd recommend, you know, fishing for half pounders. It's a lot different than steelhead because you can catch, you know, on a good day, 20, 30,. You know half pounders and you know so they're. They're much. It's much more active fishing. It's not like a one or two steelhead or you were lucky to get a steelhead, you know, type of thing.

Speaker 2: 47:03

That's what I'm up against right now. Oh man, it's been a stressful. Last year I lost a lot, and then this year is I've hooked one and I'm just like time's ticking. Time is ticking, it's not.

Speaker 1: 47:20

The life of the steelhead fisherman yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:22

Yeah, and then it's it's always days that I work five days a week and it's always days that I'm working where my friends like dude river was hot today and I'm like I kind of hate you right now, you know say, let me, um, that's interesting. So the half pounders do they go back out and then eventually turned into full pounders.

Speaker 1: 47:47

Whatever, full steelhead, yeah. And then that's my, that's how I understand it at least. Um, yeah, they will go back out. I don't know. I think they're either in there for like six months or a year in the river system before then going back out again.

Speaker 2: 48:03

Okay, Do those come in? When would they be coming in? Like are they? You know they're a half pounder. Are they considered like a summer run? Yeah, I'm confused, yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:13

It's usually summer, so August, september, um is is usually the best time to go fishing for them.

Speaker 2: 48:21

Okay, august, september, october, yeah, so summer fall, and then there would still be like summer runs coming in at that point.

Speaker 1: 48:30

Yeah, they have some. Yeah, they have summer steelhead runs as well. Um so yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:35

Huh, that's food for thought. I didn't, uh, I never, never heard of that before. So that's pretty cool and they're. They're just looking the same Like. They look like a small silver rainbow. Do they color up? Uh, before they go out, I guess they're not really spawning, so no need to do. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, yeah, that is interesting. Six months to a year, right, they just chill out in the river, eat bugs and and hopefully I I could be off on some of that.

Speaker 1: 49:05

I I, you know, not an expert when it comes to that.

Speaker 2: 49:08

So yeah, well, and with steelhead it's kind of I don't know. It baffles me that there's not more uh research done on them or that you know at least I haven't seen it. I know some people know a lot more than everyone else about them. But yeah, they seems to be kind of a I don't know like a bit of a mystery, especially once they're out in the ocean. There's only so much data on them, which is is interesting in itself, but yeah, what a species, eh, it is.

Speaker 1: 49:43

And yeah, and they're different here than they are the Great Lakes, and yeah, it's it's own thing here.

Speaker 2: 49:51

Yeah, no doubt. Um kind of going back to the work thing, are you the only one making the hooks?

Speaker 1: 50:00

Yeah, so I and it's just a side gig right now I work full time and and as I have time, I'm doing it. So it's pretty. It's going pretty slow right now. Um, a lot of times it's just to, you know, have some time on a weekend. It's harder to do than like fly tight. I can sit down for half an hour and do it like for the hooks. It's a little bit um, yeah, I have to, you know, have a little bit more, uh, concentrated time on that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:26

How long would a Batch at 40 take you If?

Speaker 1: 50:30

you have to. I mean calendar wise, I mean it probably takes at least six weeks, um, just because I'm working, you know, a couple of hours every weekend on them, um, end to end. I mean, if you it's hard because the, you know, you, I cook them, I the oven time probably is, you know, probably five hours at least in the ovens, but you know you don't have to actively be there, um, you know you can be doing something else during those time. But I would you know. So if you divide that, there's probably an hour or two and each hook Um yeah, wow, that is, yeah, that is.

Speaker 2: 51:19

That's a lot of time for one hook. I mean, you know now, when you say the, the prices, it's not outrageous when you put it in that terms.

Speaker 1: 51:29

Yeah, it's not. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not going to retire anytime soon to start making hooks.

Speaker 2: 51:35

Yeah, no doubt. What's uh, what's that? What's your main gig?

Speaker 1: 51:42

I uh, I'm a manager of a software engineering team for the hospital. Oh, yeah, cool, I've been doing that for quite some time, then Um just on almost to three years on that before I was in the financial industry as a software engineer.

Speaker 2: 52:02

Okay, so that's what you were taking when you're in college, and did you go to university for it as well? Is that a?

Speaker 1: 52:09

I went to Idaho State University and uh, yeah, I got a degree in computer information systems and then, uh, later on got a uh, master's in business, um, going down the you know management track.

Speaker 2: 52:23

Oh yeah, good on you. Yeah, that's, uh yeah, well, I mean, this is kind of my side gig. I don't make profit off it, but I do love it. So you know there's a lot of things to juggle in the in the meantime because we've got work, family, we got to fish once in a while, we got to tie some flies once in a while and then, you know, build hooks, I guess.

Speaker 1: 52:47

Yeah, definitely. There's, yeah, a lot of different hobbies and interests and things going involved.

Speaker 2: 52:55

Were you tying on? Sorry, do we call it? Um? I want to say eyeless hooks, but it sounds blind eye hooks. Blind eye hooks. Were you tying on them prior to meeting your? Uh, I guess he was your mentor for a bit there.

Speaker 1: 53:15

Um, no, not, I mean a little bit, but not a lot. Yeah, um, yeah, yeah, yeah, I yeah, a lot of my tying was just, you know, just keeping up with the commercial orders for a while and so, and then just a little bit of the my own tying type stuff.

Speaker 2: 53:36

Yeah, yeah, but now you like to tie on them. Obviously, do you tie ones that, uh, that don't work out, that you don't go to sell, or do you? You still tie on the ones.

Speaker 1: 53:47

I, I still haven't tied on one of mine yet, Okay, but I do have rejects and I I donate those to people or, you know, give them away and stuff. Um, I'll be donating some to the Northwest salmon fly guild, Um, you know so tires, who you know want to tie on, and a lot, you know you, most people probably couldn't tell that they would be rejects, Um, but you know they, they wouldn't quite make the cut to sell.

Speaker 1: 54:16

Yeah, so I'm a little detail that just even though yeah like the barbs, not quite long enough for the points a little bit. I mean it's made like the, the points on the hooks are. You know the um are measured in like 64, like you know they'd be 18, 64th of an inch, or you know 15, eight 64th of an inch. So uh yeah, that's.

Speaker 2: 54:43

yeah, I work in, I work in uh 16s for construction. So you know, that's, that's getting into some, some fine, fine furniture. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:56

Fine, or the, the magnifying glass yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:00

Exactly. Um, yeah, that's interesting. So you know, let's say, in a typical week, um, assuming you do go make some hooks, what does that look like? So you work five days a week and then.

Speaker 1: 55:15

So usually I'll spend at least a couple hours either Saturday or Sunday and I'll like take them, like so this this past weekend, um, I spent a couple hours, uh, cutting the, the, the wire to to length and then doing the tapers on them. I probably did, I it was probably around 40, um hooks and then I got the tapers on them and then all the net. You know, that's, that's what I got done this weekend, um, and then you know, the next stage will be putting the barbs in um the the barbs are tricky. Sometimes it takes like an hour to just set up the, the jig to, to cut it right. I'm still, you know, learning the, you know how to, how it all works. So, um, but then actually cutting them once, once you get it all set up, you know they just take, you know, you know, five seconds, 10 seconds each Um, is it?

Speaker 2: 56:12

a bit of a guillotine kind of chisel thing going, or is it actually like I'm imagining, a woodwork chisel, you know?

Speaker 1: 56:20

So the chisel is only a couple of inches long and it has like a groove in it, um, where the barb comes up into Um, that's probably the best I can describe. I, I, and then that is how it works. I'm assuming they were made, they were custom made by Reinhold, or he had them made, or yeah, I'm not sure Some of that stuff. I just hope it doesn't break, and because I'll have to have to figure out different ways to do it then.

Speaker 2: 56:54

Yeah, or find someone that can actually recreate it, or something like that.

Speaker 1: 57:00

Yeah, become friends with a metal worker. Well, they're out of the machine as well.

Speaker 2: 57:05

I know a few metal workers that like fly fishing, so I'm sure if you poked and prod it around you'd figure it out. But yeah, I feel you things not breaking is nice. Yeah, 100%. And then, how often do you get to go out fishing yourself these days?

Speaker 1: 57:26

Hey, I'm not a huge fisherman. I probably haven't been out in a year, maybe even two. I love tying flies and it's easy to do in the evenings or when I have an hour. So yeah, I haven't been out for a while.

Speaker 2: 57:50

That's okay. When you get out, it'll be that much more special.

Speaker 1: 57:54

Yeah, I mean when I bought the business, a lot of weekends were spent learning from Ron and then just moving the business up from Portland down to my house. I had to have a shop bill, so it's been a pretty busy couple of years getting up to speed for the hook stuff. So that's been where a lot of the time has gone.

Speaker 2: 58:16

Yeah, I guess prior to building the hooks were you fishing quite a bit more, or has it always been like something like fly tying has just been captivating.

Speaker 1: 58:27

It's probably. Yeah, it's always been like 90, 95% fly tying.

Speaker 2: 58:32

Yeah, yeah. No, I've met people for sure, especially on the podcast, that they tie flies. That's their bread and butter, which is awesome because it's a very artistic way, it's relaxing, it's something like you said. You can do for a half hour hour at night, which is kind of perfect where it's fishing. Especially if you live a busy lifestyle, it can be hard.

Speaker 1: 58:59

Yeah, yeah. You have to get ready, you have to go, you have to leave your warm home.

Speaker 2: 59:07

No, like I said, I guide, so I've definitely had plenty of people on the boat where they've fished maybe two, three times a year because their life is just that busy and or they don't really love to live in a spot that you know. There's this one gentleman that lived in not Germany at Porter's Germany. I'm not going to remember this moment, but yeah, he fishes like maybe once a year, maybe once every two years because there isn't really fishing around him. But he is an extremely crafty fly tire like yourself.

Speaker 1: 59:47

So yeah, it's also tricky like we've had some bad fire seasons and one of my favorite rivers, the Northampho, got hit with fires and then bad runs with the. Still they've closed down the river because they just haven't had the runs and stuff for the summer still had. So it's also just a you're battling all of the conditions and stuff as well.

Speaker 2: 1:00:22

Yeah. Yeah, that is like steelheading especially. I mean everything. You're kind of battling the elements, like you said, but steelheading, you know, especially if you're going winter steelheading finally the water's ready and then it snows a ton and you don't want to go out, and then you know, or it's too cold to go out, and then snow starts to melt, rivers up, and then you know it starts raining a ton and just wait, especially if you don't get to go out a ton, and it's not like you're going every weekend finding that right and you can't plan for it.

Speaker 1: 1:00:57

Yeah yeah, you can't be like oh, I'm going to fish in mid-March and it's just sort of a crapshoot what the rivers will be like yeah, so you were also mentioning that you go to like fly tying.

Speaker 2: 1:01:11

Was that the sorry I'm forgetting the name of the classic fly tying show that's mine.

Speaker 1: 1:01:20

Yeah, the Atlantic Seminifly International, and they also have a website as well. So, if you just Google ASFI Calgary, you'll find their website.

Speaker 2: 1:01:31

Yeah, yeah. So you've got the main one that you go to, or do you go? Try to get that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:38

So the other big one is 20 minutes away from me in Albany and it's every March and the Northwest Fly Tying and Fly Fishing Expo, so that one is much larger and because it encompasses all tying and stuff and they'll have like 60 or 70 tires tying at one time and over the course of two days. So it's a great show to you know more of a general tying show, but you can then you know you can see people tying trout bass. You know steelhead salmon, realistic flies, you know the whole thing.

Speaker 2: 1:02:15

Yeah, yeah. We I mean I guess in Vancouver and Alberta gets quite a few kind of fishing shows. But Vancouver Island we get a boat show that incorporates some saltwater fishing and then a very small portion of it incorporates like lake fishing and then an even smaller portion of it incorporates fly fishing. So I've only been to that one. But that's why I was kind of stoked and I was like, oh, maybe I'll get to go to Calgary and see this, but I bet you I'll be working. I'll be gone for three months, so just working, just guiding, and it ends in. I'm supposed to be done at the end of September. So I'm probably going to be busy, but if I'm not, am I just so do you guide full time for part of the year then?

Speaker 2: 1:03:16

Um so I guide the full season out in Cranbrook, which I just did my first season this past season, and then it was also my first season doing fall fishing last year into doing spring. So fall season I probably get about two months and then spring fishing, for sure, you know, a full month, but kind of maybe really depends on conditions as well, so that could be kind of two months and then three months out there. So yeah, I guess about a half a year of guiding and then construction is the other thing I do. So yeah, it's something that kind of captivated me for a long time and I remember going or swinging your runs with my buddy and all of a sudden this guy came down on a raft and I was like I didn't even know it was one, I was still so new to fly fishing itself and I was like what is he doing? You?

Speaker 1: 1:04:24

know I was so excited.

Speaker 2: 1:04:25

I was like, can I do that? And then my buddy was like he's guiding and I was like I don't know why, like even fly fishing in itself I didn't really think because as something you could do or like people did. But then when I realized it is obviously fell in love with it and then when I realized you could guide it, just it was like a light went off in my head. I like talking to people. I like, you know, not massive groups, one on one, two use the sweet spot. So being on a three man raft where it's me and two other guests, that's, you know, kind of my sweet spot with people. So, yeah, just kind of fit together. And so I spent as much time as possible, you know, learning what I could on on the rivers. But I always had in the back of my mind I wanted to guide.

Speaker 2: 1:05:18

And last year I was talking to a guide for some time, had him on the podcast, talked to him a little bit more and eventually, just, you know, asked him can I guide for you? Yeah, so he told me you had a boat and I go to boat. Here we are, you know, that's awesome. Yeah, it was a cool little string of events, nerve racking, as you know anything when it's new. I remember when you were buying the business as well for making hooks. You're like, oh my God, what am I doing?

Speaker 1: 1:05:55

Yes, yep, definitely.

Speaker 2: 1:05:58

So and then, you know, going away to Cranbrook never been there, I've been through Cranbrook driving through BC, but I had never fished out there. So I showed up half way through the season, basically for my first season there, when fishing was getting a little bit tougher, and had to learn. You know, I think like eight different runs or maybe I learned six, but there's eight runs altogether that we could do on three all together, that all those runs would be separated onto three different systems. So yeah, it was a lot but I did good and the guests were happy.

Speaker 2: 1:06:49

I had one extremely humbling day where I was like pulling hair on my head because everyone was like all the other guides you know we chat in between us when things were tough and texted kind of like, hey, what's working for you and stuff, and they'd be like this fly, and I'd be like, out of the hundred dry flies I have in front of me, I do not have that one and they'd be like, oh, you got to have that one. Today would be the same thing oh, you got to have that one and I'm like, oh my God. So yeah, it'll be one of those things I do plan on doing it. I absolutely love guiding. It's not even really for the fishing, it's kind of just being on the water. I mean, it's obviously for the, but it's being on the water, being with people and teaching them. Something that I absolutely love, and you know.

Speaker 1: 1:07:43

I'm sure it's different than fishing yourself. I mean, it's, you know, helping on people a lot. It's not probably. You probably don't consider it like fishing. You're not going fishing. Yeah, I'm not fishing.

Speaker 2: 1:07:56

That was one one thing I was nervous for when I, like, was getting into. It was am I going to be able to sit there and not fish? But you know, probably I would assume you'd almost get the same gratification as you know me, in the sense of when you tie or when you make a hook and you send it off to someone and they send you. I assume they sometimes send you a photo of what they've tied. You're like, yeah, I helped get that there.

Speaker 1: 1:08:25

Exactly. Yeah, there, I've only there's only been a few that I've sent out, but yeah, there, I have been getting a few photos back and it is. It is, yeah, you feel rewarded that someone used your, you know, hook.

Speaker 2: 1:08:38

Yeah, and it looks beautiful and everything comes together. So, yeah, that was something I was a little nervous about. But yeah, I don't. I mean, yeah, deep down inside I'm like, let me fish, Let me do this. You know what I mean. But at the same time, you know, when I have a younger kid on the boat, I get, so I get like high on life and you know, it was a crazy, cool, awesome day.

Speaker 2: 1:09:09

Whether you know, fish count aside, I don't worry about the fish count. I'm not, you know, in competition with any other guides. I'm in my own lane kind of thing. But definitely when something, you know, really cool happened and I could share that moment with the guests and then we have plenty to talk about, I get that like elevated, like, yeah, this is where I'm supposed to be, kind of feeling. So, yeah, it's good, it's work. It's not just, you know, sitting on my ass and letting fish. You know, I still got to row the boat. I still got to make sure everyone's safe. I got to be, you know, there for every need that someone has. Some people, you know, don't know how to tie knots. Some people know how to tie knots but want you to do it. Some people want to tie their own, but if they lose enough then I'm like, okay, I got to tie these on at that point. But yeah, it's just a cool thing.

Speaker 1: 1:10:16

I mean I never.

Speaker 2: 1:10:17

it's like beautiful areas and stuff too, that's another thing you know, if it's a not a great day fishing, it's like hey, look at that mountain over there, isn't that beautiful People are like wow they're in the wildlife and yeah, that's the thing.

Speaker 1: 1:10:35

Like for fly fishing for me is, when I do go, it's I don't want to be around a lot of people, that's for sure. So I'd rather not catch anything and have some solitude than, like you know, shoulder to shoulder fishing. That, yeah, that's not my thing.

Speaker 2: 1:10:57

No, and luckily, like I mean I don't think this is everywhere, but where I've been so far, like the cowhogen, the guides talk to each other to try to spread each other out or at least kind of notify each other what runs, they're doing and what time they'll be. So things try to space out. You obviously run into people that way, but for the most part you know we all give. It's not like a boat pulls up next to you and you're fishing next to them, unless it's a group thing.

Speaker 1: 1:11:31

Yeah, some of the salmon like, at least down here in Oregon. You know, right off of the coast in the it's combat fishing. You know you have boats stacked up right next to each other and you know, and people get really mad at each other, I know.

Speaker 2: 1:11:50

Combat fishing is not my thing. Like for salmon, I'd prefer to go somewhere where it's fly only or no retention, because tension automatically drops out like a large version of the people that go out and then usually if there's no retention here, there's retention over there, so everyone shifts there, it's focused there and I'm like quickly fix, focus my attention over here. But I don't mind. You know a few people, seeing a few people, or fish, having someone fish behind me, or you know, if I fish behind someone, that's all good. But when it's that combat style where you know you got 30 gear guys and you're there trying to cast a spay rod or whatever and you're just amongst them, it's not my, not my cup of tea.

Speaker 2: 1:12:43

Yeah, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Vetter in Vancouver, I guess. Yeah, it's doesn't ring a bell. Okay, well, it's, it's one of those ones. And then every year I see photos and I'm like I don't even know if that's like fishing. That's almost netting. At that point when you got a sea of what's going out and everyone's casting spinners over top of each other and stuff, well, I was.

Speaker 1: 1:13:08

I was able to go up to Alaska once and I was shocked that snagging was actually a thing in legal. Yeah, I was just like what.

Speaker 2: 1:13:18

Yeah, I guess, when it's for food, and Alaska being one of those places like they do also, that net fishing, no, it's where they have these super long nets. I don't know if you've ever seen it, it's there, I didn't see that. Yeah, and they like plunge the net in as fish are swimming by and then, you know, pull out fish. It's a style for food, so it's part of the culture there. But, yeah, when I see people that, like you know, are purposely snagging out here, it's illegal. But then they found a loophole where they like tie a piece of yarn onto the hook and they're bait with a big heavy weight, with trouble hook, yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that. I was like okay.

Speaker 2: 1:14:09

So, yeah, I avoid those areas now, just because I'm like I don't really for me the same thing. You know, I want to be kind of secluded to myself or to my buddy that I'm with and just kind of relaxing, not getting pushed down the river. Same with boats. You know, if there's a boat that's not necessarily trying to pass me, but it's behind me, I usually just let it pass because you know, if it's steelhead, yeah, maybe there isn't a ton of steelhead in the river system. If it's trout. You know, any good angler usually can realize that like, yeah, there are more fish and maybe if a boat goes through you might not catch as much, but if they're not fishing the same thing you are, or fishing the same water you know seams and stuff there's still fish out there to catch. So yeah, peaceful fishing, that's what we've got. Peaceful fishing, yeah. So what's kind of in the calendar for this year? Are you going to that show personally? Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:15:16

I'll be at the well, I'll be next month at the show in Albany, the Northwest fly fishing and fly tying show. So that's coming up really quickly. And then, yeah, in September will be the Atlantic Semine fly international. So those are my two big events and then you know, mostly you know just working, tying and making some hooks, and I like to. I have a kid that I go camping with and so try to plan a couple of camping trips for the summer. How?

Speaker 2: 1:15:52

old is your kid? 20. 20. Okay, yeah. So Big kid? Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, short kid.

Speaker 1: 1:16:04

And I still like to go camping, so I'll take it.

Speaker 2: 1:16:07

Yeah, no, 100%. That's good. I definitely pondered. I'm like, okay, I got to be got to be fun enough that the kid wants me to stick around throughout his life, but also I need to be stern enough so that he's got what it takes to make it through this world. There's a nice fine line. I think yeah, that's pretty cool, and so he was raised pretty much in Oregon. Yep, yeah, born and raised Cool. Yeah, is he into fishing?

Speaker 1: 1:16:39

Well, yeah, they're non-binary, so they use, they them, yeah, oh that's okay, yeah. No, they're not into fishing. So a lot of times when we go camping I like to spend time with them. So that's why I'm not fishing. You know, I don't want to go off and fish when I can spend time with them. You know, on hikes or you know going looking at waterfalls or playing in the river, and you know things like that.

Speaker 2: 1:17:06

Yeah, yeah, 100%. No, that's good. I mean, camping is one of those things especially with the family that you know. Just getting out and being together is awesome. I like camping. I haven't been doing it a ton because work, life and all that and then fishing and whatnot. But my son's he's pretty, he's four and he enjoys, enjoys the fly rod. He doesn't really know how to use it yet, but I bought him one of those little Echogekko ones so he's practicing away with it and it's, yeah, it's a cool thing, I hope.

Speaker 1: 1:17:44

It won't be long. No, I mean I started fishing. I started just regular. You know fishing before hight fishing and I'm sure I was in grade school you know bicycling to the river or lakes. I grew up in Northern Idaho where we had a lot more lakes and stuff and yeah, so you don't have to be very old.

Speaker 2: 1:18:10

No, yeah, that's kind of you know, it's definitely part of my dream is obviously wanting to share it with people. So he's one of the people I'd like to share it with and he talks about it a lot. You know, we go out fishing. We went out, I guess about a week ago, just to the ocean and chase some sea run cutthroats that, of course, we didn't find any it's a little early for them, but he was sitting there and casting away and apparently he got a bunch of bites. Meanwhile I'm, you know, working my butt off and I got no bites. But yeah, it was fun, he was happy and it's one of those things. Anything outdoors with the family is definitely where I'm kind of aiming to spend a lot of time. So we live on a farm, we get a lot of outdoor time here as well, and it's good for the soul, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:19:10

Exactly Get away from the hustle and bustle. I'm on a computer all day, so that's the other nice thing with Time. Fly, you know, takes me off to the computer, or, you know, camping and getting outside and stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:19:24

So yeah, no, that's good. Are you doing camping in tents or are we? Yeah?

Speaker 1: 1:19:30

just tent camping, yeah, but, but car we haven't. Growing up I would do hikes and backpacking and stuff like that, but now it's just car camping in tents and then using that as a satellite and then going on day trips and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 1:19:48

Yeah, no, that's fair. I've never really done a camping or like a hike in camping thing. I had friends that would do it. There's a pretty famous. It's called the West Coast Trail on the island, so it's like a, I think, sort of like the PCT Probably.

Speaker 1: 1:20:07

Yeah, so like the PCT goes from Mexico up to Canada.

Speaker 2: 1:20:12

Yeah, so not that, since we're on an island.

Speaker 1: 1:20:15

But you know we cut off.

Speaker 2: 1:20:17

If you're going that long, you're probably swimming quite a bit. But yeah, I've had a friend do that, and that's something that I would like to do eventually, because you know it would just be an experience.

Speaker 1: 1:20:29

My preference, though, would be you know, do this crazy hike and camp along the way until your destination, but that destination be something you could fish at for me, yeah, yeah, and then into just those high mountain lakes are a lot of fun to do, that I mean we would do that a lot because they, you know, whenever you have to hike somewhere it doesn't get as much pressure and usually those fish, you know, can be really hungry and aggressive. And so growing up we did a lot of that.

Speaker 2: 1:21:06

Yeah, and they haven't seen all the fly patterns and they're more curious, not all the time, but yeah, high up, high in the lakes, plus that is, like you know, that's a photo worthy area for sure, like every time, you know, sunsets there and whatnot, yep.

Speaker 1: 1:21:26

And wildlife and yep. Well, I have lots of good memories with you know those trips. There's one trip up in Canada. It was a canoeing trip, Bowron, I think. In Canada they're provincial parks, but it's like a 70 mile canoe trip around a series of lakes. I think you know like five lakes. That was a lot of fun too, yeah. And then you just there's some portaging. But you know, same thing, canada is awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:22:04

Yeah, I got a love hate. Right now I spend a lot of food and gas back Besides from that. Yeah, the things you see out here and and you know I haven't been down through a ton of the US, have been in a few states, but yeah, we got some beautiful areas up here, a lot less people, I guess as well. So that allows you to feel a little more secluded. Yeah, no, I mean sometimes even like this island. The percentage of places I've really been on this island, when you think about it, is like probably under zero point something percent, because there's just so much to venture out to. But yeah, we'll get there. We'll find some more stuff to see.

Speaker 1: 1:22:53

That's for sure, it's definitely that there's, yeah, the number of places to explore also in Oregon. I mean you have the coast, the coastal range, and then you know the mountains and then you know the desert. There's definitely, you know, a wide range.

Speaker 2: 1:23:13

Yeah, so a little bit back on to fly tying and then we can wrap it up. But when you're because you're doing the commercial thing as well what's your favorite style of tying, like, what's kind of what keeps you when you want to tie a fly generally, what it will it be?

Speaker 1: 1:23:35

I mean I have a lot of swings. I grew up tying dry flies, so that has a heart. But I also in college I learned how to do some woven body flies. And then I got into kumihimo woven body flies, which take 16 strands of floss to do these intricate bodies and stuff, making it to sort of a different level, and steelhead flies. So I don't think I have a favorite. I have two tying stations set up in my house so sometimes I'll be doing dry flies here and then nymphs the other one and switch off.

Speaker 2: 1:24:24

The woven body flies. I've only seen that a few times. It's kind of mind-blowing. Obviously, I would assume it's not easy, but once you know the little tricks and stuff, is it just a process of doing all that? I imagine it's almost like braiding but onto a hook. Is that kind of?

Speaker 1: 1:24:49

Yeah, I mean just the woven body flies, like woven body stone flies that are two strands of materials. Those are just a series of half pitches basically, so that's really easy. The kumihimo it's a little complicated in keeping track of 16 strands of floss and there's a foam disc that helps with that, but it takes a little bit of practice. But I don't know If you're tying flies, it's no more difficult than classical flies and like married wings and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 1:25:34

Yeah, and then that foam thing you're talking about would just be at the underneath the hook and you'd put each of those strands of floss into, to kind of hold it while you're.

Speaker 1: 1:25:49

Yeah, so the first step is to tie all the strands on the hook and then put them on to the foam disc and then the actual weaving. You take it out of the vise and then you just have the disc and then you do the weaving and it goes on the shank of the hook and then you put it back in the vise and tie it off and most of those are like steelhead flies or what I do for that.

Speaker 2: 1:26:17

For yeah, wow, how long does? Sorry, what was that? The name that you gave the more intricate woven flies there, kumihimo.

Speaker 1: 1:26:29

It's a Japanese technique that they use for making fancy ropes and different things, that they actually will also do it for art and put it into frames and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 1:26:49

Yeah, I think you can check that out afterward on this, just to see you get some visuals on it. I can imagine. I mean, you know, yeah, I can definitely imagine. I'm even thinking of those kind of the good luck pendants that you see in like Chinatown or whatever, and you see the ropes all intertwined in crazy ways and it's like wow, that's a crazy skill set right there. But, yeah, super interesting. So how long does one of those flies usually take, if you know you actually started it to finish?

Speaker 1: 1:27:22

Probably an hour, hour and a half.

Speaker 2: 1:27:24

Yeah, okay, that's probably how long it takes me to lay down a couple feathers as well. Still good, I'm still good learning how to actually do that. But yeah, it takes time.

Speaker 1: 1:27:36

So I definitely like exploring different styles of materials. You know trying to come up just you know doing my own thing, so yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:27:49

Well, garen, that was very interesting. I've always kind of pondered how you know, without going into major detail, how hooks were made. You know, you look at something and you're like hmm, that's. I assume you know most of the brands that I'm buying are probably just machine made.

Speaker 1: 1:28:09

Yep, yeah, yeah, all of them would be. And there's just not a big enough market to have companies to machine make blind eye hooks for this market I mean, yeah, it's just too niche.

Speaker 2: 1:28:21

Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

Speaker 1: 1:28:25

Well, thank you for inviting me. Like I said, this is my first podcast, so it's been fun. I've enjoyed chatting with you.

Speaker 2: 1:28:32

Yeah, well, you did great and I was interested and that's something that I always think makes a good episode. So, yeah, no, I really appreciate you spending the time to explain me what you do and your passion. So, yeah, appreciate it. Thank you All. Right, right on. You have a good night and I will chat later.