Dead Drifters Society: A fly fishing podcast
Fearless: Exploring Michell Paisker's Podcast
Caught between the ferocity of a river's current and the serene dance of a well-placed fly, this episode is a mosaic of outdoor adventures and angling wisdom. My friend and I swap stories from the heart-racing moments of near-disasters on the rapids to the methodical artistry behind swinging flies for the elusive steelhead. With each memory, we peel back the layers of what it means to truly engage with the wild—respecting its dangers while cherishing its gifts, like the discovery of a rare dwarf Dolly Varden or the thrill of a silver salmon on the line.
As the river's current sculpts the banks, so does the conversation shape our understanding of the sport's finer points—delving into the ethics of barbless hooks, and the controversy of flossing. Each chapter reveals a new facet of the fly fishing experience, from selecting the perfect streamer to mastering the assertiveness needed for guiding. It's not just about the catch; it's about the preservation of these experiences for future generations, underscored by our shared commitment to conservation and a summer schedule brimming with environmental research and guiding opportunities.
Strap on your life jacket and prepare for a dive into true tales that could only come from those who live the river's rhythm. We reflect on the invaluable lessons of river safety, the crucial transition from tentative guide to confident leader, and the warm anticipation of teaching the next generation the joys of casting a line. This episode isn't merely a collection of fishing yarns; it's a testament to the strength drawn from nature, the camaraderie forged on its banks, and the lifelong passion ignited by that first tug on the line. Join us as we cast these stories into the current, sharing the ebb and flow of a life lived in the embrace of the great outdoors.
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https://www.instagram.com/mpaisker?igsh=enM0ZWkyNXB1MjJj
Caught between the ferocity of a river's current and the serene dance of a well-placed fly, this episode is a mosaic of outdoor adventures and angling wisdom. My friend and I swap stories from the heart-racing moments of near-disasters on the rapids to the methodical artistry behind swinging flies for the elusive steelhead. With each memory, we peel back the layers of what it means to truly engage with the wild—respecting its dangers while cherishing its gifts, like the discovery of a rare dwarf Dolly Varden or the thrill of a silver salmon on the line.
As the river's current sculpts the banks, so does the conversation shape our understanding of the sport's finer points—delving into the ethics of barbless hooks, and the controversy of flossing. Each chapter reveals a new facet of the fly fishing experience, from selecting the perfect streamer to mastering the assertiveness needed for guiding. It's not just about the catch; it's about the preservation of these experiences for future generations, underscored by our shared commitment to conservation and a summer schedule brimming with environmental research and guiding opportunities.
Strap on your life jacket and prepare for a dive into true tales that could only come from those who live the river's rhythm. We reflect on the invaluable lessons of river safety, the crucial transition from tentative guide to confident leader, and the warm anticipation of teaching the next generation the joys of casting a line. This episode isn't merely a collection of fishing yarns; it's a testament to the strength drawn from nature, the camaraderie forged on its banks, and the lifelong passion ignited by that first tug on the line. Join us as we cast these stories into the current, sharing the ebb and flow of a life lived in the embrace of the great outdoors.
•Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/mpaisker?igsh=enM0ZWkyNXB1MjJj
I like spun my raft and I was trying to like back out and the the oars were a little short so they skipped off the water a couple times because I was like trying to go fast in the, panicking a little bit and I wasn't able to clear this sweeper that was. I was like going right into, I got pinned right into it and my downstream or hit that log, popped out of the oar lock and just never to be seen again. And Then I'm like Putting all of my body weight over the downstream on tune because the water is coming down, like Trying to flip me on, like trying to flip me under right, and Eventually my buddy got down below the log, he hopped out and we Flipped my cataract over the long.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, it's been a. It's been a hot minute since I've had you on. And yeah, if you're a bit there, you weren't getting out fishing because you're busy with other things in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, um yeah, I guess, like we talked Mid-late summer last year I think, when we had that whole group together, yeah, I had just gotten back from Canada, I went fishing for bulls out there and then there was a summer was pretty low key, I'll be honest. Went silver salmon fishing once or coho, went for grayling a couple times, couple Rambo trips, but other than that, like I kept it pretty low key, found like a really cool population of Like dwarf Dolly Varden that I fished a couple times. But yeah it's, it was a. It was a really quiet year for me overall. Just, you know, kind of fell out of it for a little bit but and focused on other things. But you know, overall it was, it was still a good year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and it's kind of one of those things that, like, we love it a lot, but there is other stuff we have to get done at times.
Speaker 1:That and like, no matter how much you love it, like you still kind of burn out of it sometimes Mm-hmm and like, especially if you're going to the same spots over and over and over. It was it was good to take a little break and kind of, yeah, just focus on other things and Regear and regroup, you know so yeah, yeah, and you have some other hobbies you like to do right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in the summer I Am in a like a men's league softball, like slow-pitched softball league yeah, and then I was like Roller skating quite a bit, busted those out and Would go on some nice you know skates and then different camping trips with you know the dog and girlfriend, and Then work was just busy overall to this like end of season got pretty busy.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, man, I don't have a ton of other hobbies but I guess I stay pretty busy with the podcast and you know, living on a farm, there's always something to something to fix, which been lacking on lately, been you'll head and Getting nothing dude, I want to go steelhead fishing so bad right now.
Speaker 1:I've been seeing everybody post and like growing up, like I mean great to their, like hero shots of their fish, right, but like God, I want to go steelhead fishing. So bad, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my one buddy was like. I was in the shop today and I was like man, I'm starting to like lose my, lose my cool here with the steelhead. And he's like, don't worry, man, you know how it is every year, you know. Yeah, I know February super tough. You might get a tug here and there, but then March rolls around and all of a sudden tables turn and they start getting bitey right before they go into their spawn.
Speaker 1:And you are you swinging for them, or a nymph in, or drifting beads? What are you doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a Since last year, just strictly swinging for them. I Should really say that I, yeah, strictly always swinging for them, but I have got them not nymphing, targeting. Okay, got your browns and Steelhead, kind of like that softer water, so you do find them in, like you know, right off the bank, soft water, yeah, next to a scene kind of. Yeah, I definitely thought of it while I'm there and I'm staring at a bunch and I go upstream and Swing you know several patterns, rest the run hands up, wait for them. I'm like, okay, this will work.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, but yeah, I've, I've like swung on before. Up here there's a there's a really good river to swing them, or a couple really good rivers, smaller, like skinnier water, but but still swingable. And then Out East Nymphdom I mean granted, you know, you can get into the whole debate of whether there's steelhead or, you know, lake run rainbows or whatever that hell you want to call them. I'm big, big on crinkly smikes. I've nymphed them and like beaded them. And then in yeah, in Oregon I struck out, I was there for like eight days fishing them, didn't get a single bite. And then in New York I've hit them on stone flies. I was a vena, hit them on beads. And then in Alaska I've hit them on beads and swinging flies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me it's like I really want them on the swing and I'm willing to not get one to do it. But I Question that every year by the end of the year as it gets closer into. You know, last year you know I've said it so many times was a good year, but I didn't actually land one. But I do have the pleasure of knowing that I fooled a couple. You got some good grabs. I got some really good grabs and some really cool ones, using some like kind of let's call them techniques that people have talked about. Just, you know, get a kind of a sniff that you think was fishy enough to think it was a steelhead, and moving up river Couple of steps and moving one back, so your swings coming at a new spot and then, yeah, just kind of paying more attention to how I'm swinging for them, the speed that I'm swinging for them, and and just fishing the run slower, yeah, yeah, and not not rushing myself through it. So, yeah, it's, it's been good.
Speaker 1:But but what are your colors that you're swinging?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know, man, in terms of like, do I have a really like a set color? I've been tying, I've been experimenting with like a lot of classic flies. So I've been tying a lot of like cool To me looking kind of classic or flies Okay, but my guiding seasons coming up as well, so I've been having friends out on the raft who are, who are nymphing and Tossing streamers because I just want to kind of get back in the I haven't guided for a while so I've been like just yeah, focusing on swinging, but I don't, I don't guide for steelhead. So I I definitely make sure I know what's going on in the river and you know it's Not the hardest to figure out once you kind of gone through it. Enough seasons, like I know. You know Stone flies, february is always stone flies, whether it's a little earlier or later. Yeah, yeah, there's a few other like midges can work, but I don't usually toss midges under Euro because they're so small.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but are you? Are you fishing single hook rivers or are you allowed to use multiple hooks?
Speaker 2:Yeah, legally, just one hook and I Follow that suit. I guess I didn't need to say legally. But yeah, just just one hook. Barbless, single hook, barbless, yeah, and yeah, yeah it's. But streamer fishing is. Is my barbless out there? Huh, yeah, all barbless in rivers so you can fish barb for stocked fish, but okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:There's not a law here barbless versus barb, but I think it would behoove the state to Start implementing that. I think Just cuz like all the fish up here like messed up and like yeah, you can mess a fish up barbed or barbless, but I feel like has the higher chance of like really messing a fish up.
Speaker 2:You know Well yeah, and I mean, I'm, I'm so used to it because on our oceans for Salmon you have to be barbless as well. Oh, really, yeah, yeah, because there's, you can't just retain everything you catch. Yeah, it's very much, like you know, every year I guess it can kind of vary how many coho hatchery, non hatchery. I'm in size as well, so, yeah, there's a lot of fish that get put back there, for Barbless is the way, because you know a bar, especially on, like you know, one-off hooker, bigger or smaller, yeah, looking at You're looking at making a pretty big hole in their mouth.
Speaker 2:And I've got like chronometer season on the lakes out here and I'm sure, in some smaller lakes in in the mainland, when the chronometer hatches like really full force and everyone's out fishing for them, you eventually start to get fish that have bruised lips, yeah, and just looking rough. Yeah, you know it as bad in the bigger lakes, because there can be, you know, more distance in between the more fish, I don't know. But yeah, so I fished barbless all the time. Even when I went to Alberta where I could have, you know, multiple flies on, I Still just pinched my barb because, yeah, back and I'd really, you know, you'd really have to fish it side by side and like constantly for a year to know what works better. Yeah, I Hard time keeping a fish on.
Speaker 1:You lose fish either way a lot of my, a lot of my nymphs are Barbless, like, but most, most, all of my nymphs are barbless, and then I'm slowly moving towards pinching and like tying on barbless for streamers.
Speaker 1:Yeah and, like dude, I Don't. I don't know if there's a discernible difference of barbed versus barbless that I've lost. You know, like Everybody's worried that fish and barbless, like you're gonna lose so many more fish and it's like I Think if you just keep that tension and keep them pinned, just the same, I don't think there's gonna be that much a difference of you know retention versus you know lost fish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, also, if you think about the way like so, let's say that's the hook point, and then another, like which that would be the barb, you get like the distance between the, the shank of the, the point and the barb into their their jaw, whereas if it's just a point like a needle yeah, the second it's pierced, it's all the way to the back of the bend of the hook, exactly. You know, if you don't get a crazy strong hook set, which you know you should, but if you don't get like that perfect hooks at, you're still getting it all the way in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if you, I Don't know if you have a brand hook that you like tying on more than others, but and this isn't like a endorsement or brand deal but I do like fish and fire hole, they're their jigs like. Their jig hooks are like pretty. Yeah, there you go, they're pretty like. I think they're pretty strong and they're bent at like a more than you know 90 degree turn, so like they do kind of lock themselves in. They're pierced like I'll. I can send you a photo after this. I was thinking the Kenai two winters ago, I guess, and Like the amount of fish that I landed on barbless of like Substantial size and like good fights was just like crazy. I have, you know, photos of 25 inch trout that it's just like just barely, you know, skin on their lips that's pierced. Yeah, you know they hit the net and come on pinned, but you know they're Still, you know, landed and fought just fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I.
Speaker 2:I'm way more concerned about the angles that I hold my rod. Yeah, you know, and whenever I have new people, which I'm sure I've mentioned here, it's why it's called angling Yep, because you're using angles. So I mean, maybe I can kind of describe it, since this will be on YouTube See if this kind of works out. But if you have your hook and you change the angle you're holding it at, it changes where things want to be pinned. Mm-hmm, fish is facing upriver and you're upriver, it actually it only takes a bit of a head turn, whereas if you're now down or downriver from it, that the whole thing is against it. If they shake their head, their, their mouth stays within it. So way more important to me than ever having a barb is is Keeping that angle, and then you know If the fish gets high in the water, call them and it's like at the surface, keeping that rod just as low as possible, and if they're super low on the water, I'm not too concerned.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, I Watch so many people lose fish Due to setting the hook and either going and just holding and waiting and not Stripping as fast as they can to get that rod, to get the the actual backbone of the rod into the fish and Then also the angles they hold it at. So on a raft it's a little bit harder, especially if it's like down from you or like really close to the boat, then you're kind of your rods gotta kind of come up to it. But if I you know you watch like tournament bass fishermen they not only are tiring out the, the bass as they flip back and forth, but if that bass turns, the way they're holding they flip it around to the next side, exactly. Yeah, that hook pin. So yeah, I you know I worry way more about my angles that.
Speaker 1:That's something that I've, like I've always known, but I've become a lot more conscious about over the last couple years is, like actively fighting a fish against current, like being able to know the angles, like pull their head out of the current and get them to slack water, or like, yeah, what way to hold the rod to fight them, and all that. A buddy that I had working with us last year at For the feds he yeah I mean it's yeah the US Fish and Wildlife Service working on like a salmon crew. He was a super, super, super fishy dude and he like would fight fish in a way that kind of Was it kind of didn't make sense at first, but then, once you like did it yourself, it started making sense. He would fight fish, and especially if it was a big fish. If you, if you constantly have a fish like pinned and you have side pressure working on that fish, it's always it's gonna be fighting against that side pressure, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:So Look like, let's say, you have downstream pressure on a fish that's sitting, cross current and they're gonna go run up river, he would, as that fish was started to run up river, he'd flipped the angle of pressure Up river as well. So, if so, the fish felt like, essentially felt like it had become unhooked. Yeah, and then, and then the fish would like kind of chill out a little bit and like would move into that slack water or into like less of a current or you know kind of a current seam or break, and and then you could gain a lot of like a lot of line on that fish and like you could kind of like trick that fish into thinking it was unhooked and Thinking that pressure was at a different point and like you would like fight these big fish like super quickly. And it was, it was interesting. I've never thought about it, but I like that.
Speaker 2:I have a couple of thoughts on that because when I Do salmon fishing and you know it happens that you snag a salmon they just freak out. What I would usually do would be Rip off a bunch of line for my reel, put basically no pressure on them, rip a bunch of line out, bring my rod tip way behind me, grab the line and just pull the fish in, either snapping my fly off, dragging that fish in as quickly as possible and then unhooking it, or just breaking off Like I'd give no remorse. It would be like either you're breaking off or you're coming in right now and and getting unhooked, because I see a lot of people that just fight in there like oh man, it's crazy. And I'm like if a fish is fighting that hard and you can't turn it, give or take your rod and Stuff like that, then it's probably foul hooked.
Speaker 1:Yeah and and like you can, so like flip in for a sock eye up here. Like it's called flossing. I don't know if you guys do it down there for pinks or chum or whatever You're not supposed to.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess we can, but I'm not supposed to because I don't like it in terms of that's not my style, I guess you, you end up snagging fish, like even when you don't try to, but you might, like you can.
Speaker 1:You can tell immediately if it's hooked in the face or not, because If you hit it in the mouth you have so much leverage on it.
Speaker 1:You can pull it right out of the current and like if you hook it in, like the tail or the, the like Dorsal or you know whatever, there's so much more resistance and I'll just all straight grab my reel and just point my rod right at the fish and I'll just yank my whole rod and reel back. Yeah, but as much pressure, like you're saying, on that fish to just either To rip that hook back out of the thinner or like straight pop my line yeah, I want to make it fight even longer than it has to or like go through the hassle of getting unhooked and like flopping on a bank or something you know yeah, it's like, I guess another kind of food for thought To what you're saying, how the guy would put less pressure on the fish but upstream, so still have the hook in a good angle, is when I would relieve the pressure and be ripping off that fish would almost instantly just chill out.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just go back to what I was doing. So by the time I'm ready to actually just horse it in, I'd put my rod in between my light, my legs pointing ups Out, out to the water and then, if it does it fit, did pop out of my hand. My rod doesn't just go into the water or whatever crazy, or it's not on the floor next to me where someone could step or Whatever could happen. And we're all looking fresh over here, just got a haircut, proud of the haircut. These don't go for haircuts very often.
Speaker 2:Good, yeah, so it's one of those things where you know by the time you're actually Realizing your foul hook. You've probably noticed there's no head shakes, sometimes the tail. If you snag the tail, you'll have fully, that's, that's head shakes. But once again, if you can't even turn, yeah, fish at all, especially if you're using an eight weight on coho or even Salmon, like when I fight spring salmon, I'm slightly ruthless. I'm like hard and like I can get a spring salmon in. Mind you, they're not 30, 40 pound spring salmon, but I can get one in Very quick. Just as quick when you say it spring salmon, what I'm? King salmon, sorry, oh, okay, gotcha, yeah, we call them down here, I don't know why. Yeah, so the Steelheader a bit different. Where I'm not, I'm not as willing to like horse them in because I'm scared of losing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know, if I've already caught a few salmon, that I'm like the next one's coming in fast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for me it also goes down to like rainbow and steelhead and brown trout and all that. Like they have, like they have the ability to regain their energy and regain their fat store, and like they're not coming up to die, right, yeah, as like a king or a coho pink chum, whatever you're fighting Once they hit freshwater there on limited time there on there on borrowed time, right, so they only have, let's say, when they hit freshwater, hundred percent fat store energy and they're only eating against that their entire way of river. So, if you do like, let's say, you foul, hook a fish and you find it out for twenty minutes before you get into the shore, but it's like so depleted in energy and it's like it can't regain that, right, yeah, it can't. It can't go back to like oh, let me feed and you know gains more energy or whatever, to then keep swimming up river like it's. It's a finite resource once it hits that freshwater and like I don't want to, I don't want to deplete that more than I have to, you know.
Speaker 2:Hundred percent. That's a really good way of putting it, because I've basically known that but never thought of it in that exact term. But, yeah, exactly like you know, their mortality rate goes up dramatically, higher than you know a trout or anything. But, that being said, any of these fish that were we're trying to catch, your goal is to get it in, and as quickly as possible, because, yeah, you know, I don't want to linger it on. When people are like, oh yeah, I thought this fish for you know an hour, I'm like that's crazy, like yeah, yeah, and yeah, fish probably didn't survive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I should say like I'm never going to fight a fish just to fight a fish and like play it out for you know an hour or whatever. Yeah, but to fight it ethically and quickly. Sam and I'm a little more brutal on them, like I'll reef on them a little bit more. I'd rather bust off on a salmon than continue to still be able to spawn. Yeah, then get it to shore and like have it waste that five percent more energy that it might need to. You know, fight, spawn later on. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm talking about salmon. This I do it on a jig style, but I've been streamer fishing it, yeah, and it's just been super effective. But last year this was a really effective fly for me for salmon fry. Because you know there's the I call them Alvins. I know it's not exactly Alvin, but I've always called them Alvin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, alvin, is it Alvin? I haven't read it, I just like have heard it. Some people I've heard say it a little bit different, so I'm like I don't even know if I'm saying it right, but I think Alvin and the chipmunk or chipmunks, so that's how I've always remembered it. So Alvin it is, but I'm pretty sure it's Alvin, just not a hundred percent sure. So if anyone wants to laugh at me, go for it.
Speaker 2:But this is like the easiest tie. It's three materials, it takes no effort. But you start your jig hook the normal way, you know. If you're yorowing it, then it's a heavier bead. If you're not yorowing it, it's still a heavy bead because you want to get it down and fish it quick. So I use like a, either a 3.5 or 4.5. Yeah, and like a size 10 jig hook. I really, really like these Hanec competition jig hooks. They're the H45XH but they're like higher. Wow, the wire gauge is is is thicker. Yeah, it does have a barb, so you got to pinch that, but then it's like chemically sharpened and blah, blah, blah. But I have ripped these jigs off of rocks and not had the jig hook like nothing's changed.
Speaker 1:And you're fishing those for browns and rainbows, or what are you fishing on board Browns and rainbows? I started tying. I saw there was like a. It kind of went viral. I don't know where it originally started from, but it was a jig hook with. It was almost like a balanced leech, almost jig hook, with like a nail on it and then a really small dumbbell, and then so it was jig hook, nail and dumbbell and then off the bottom it was a poochie bead, p the PUCCI brand and it was like a three mil. It was either a two or three middle, three millimeter orange bead that I loop down with mono and then put some like crystal chenille like on the bottom, kind of like what yours looks like, and then over top it was just like one piece of Like an olive chenille and so it it looked like they look really good. I haven't fished them yet, but I tied up quite a few. I can send you the photo of them. Yeah, please do.
Speaker 2:I like being. A lot of my flies get tossed out and then lost almost instantaneously until the guests get better. Or you know, even if it's me, I lose flies because I usually fish in deep, especially when it's cold. But yeah, these Alvins are these. I guess this is the stage after an Alvin. So I do my Alvins pretty similar. But then an orange bead, just like dubbing, white dubbing. Yeah, love putting a little piece of red marabou so it looks like the gills, but this one. And then I put deer hair for this one so it kind of pushes water, but the deer hair and everything. When this is in the water it just like strains out tight. If the, if the fry are like really small, I won't put as much deer hair. Okay, yeah, when I'm like actually about to start fishing or just let the fish do it, because I don't. I haven't seen a dramatic change.
Speaker 2:But yesterday because, yeah, we were supposed to record yesterday but I was exhausted I went out to the river with my friends. It was one of my buddies birthday's recently, so I took him on a birthday float and we just ripped streamers and he's new to fly fishing so he was yearling but I made him Euro streamers all day, little streamers and stuff and yeah, the Alvins were working great. But I got a couple of really nice fish on my first day. I got a couple of fish on this fly and then last year I destroyed with this fly. It was super awesome and you can just fish it like like I said. You know you can Euro it since it's on a jig hook, but you can also. Oh yeah, yeah, that looks good. I like that. That Chanel stuff where you burn the ends. Yep, I also use that for case cat. Is that that stuff? My buddy?
Speaker 1:yeah yeah, and I was like a keeping cat is yeah, just like this.
Speaker 2:Shouldn't Not Chanel, because that's what it is. Chartreuse, yeah, chartreuse color, just like a little little.
Speaker 1:And then and then you put like a little dot of black on the end of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my one buddy went really hard with them and I've seen this before on on Instagram. But you take like the case to make the case cat is and then you put glue after you've kind of dubbed it, and you can put rocks like sand. If you get the gravel from your river, you can kind of like dry it out and then put rocks on it so it looks like a full on case cat is with the little pupa sticking out.
Speaker 1:But what I I found one time at a fly store. It was essentially the same thing, but it was there were stacked deer hair and then there were stacked like it was the thicker rubber that you would use on like a, like a thicker rubber legs like stacked really close and then trimmed into a circle. So it was like a modeled like case but of like rubber, like stacked legs. Doing a really bad job of explaining it, but it it like it looked super, super, super good. Yeah, I don't have the flies anymore. I don't know, I don't know what river owns them now, but yeah, nims, nims, yeah, it's, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I kind of like streamer fishing is like super cool, our rivers maybe not the craziest streamer out there, I'm sure there's some really good ones, but it's something I want to introduce more and more, and definitely as it warms up. I I hear away from the Eurone for a couple of reasons. One I do actually like teaching casting. I do actually like watching people like we can't use indicators or bobbers in whatever you want to call them, in the fly only, so I don't get a spirit. Yeah, I know they just were in BC. They challenge us on everything.
Speaker 1:Now, now, would you be able to not saying that you would do it? Would you be able to like, get around that by doing like a hopper dropper but cutting the hook on the hopper?
Speaker 2:No, because then it's considered an indicator.
Speaker 1:All right, it would still be considered an indicator then. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I thought of that and it probably is a loophole you could potentially. I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't want to have it on and have a game more to walk up. Yeah, that to me would be, you know.
Speaker 1:Is there a reason you can't use like strike indicators and fly only waters out there? That you know of, or is it just kind of one of those things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's one of those things. I think it's the challenge, I think, because we don't have like an insane population of trout which we do have really good population trout but I think back in the day when it was kind of made, maybe it was a snubby thing. Like you know, we don't use this or we don't do that.
Speaker 1:I mean like, yeah, using indicators is definitely not traditional fly fishing.
Speaker 2:No, no, and if we go, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So I don't really know, but I grew up basically my my fly fishing history on it is that is not using indicators or not are only using a single hook. So, like when I went out to Alberta and I was streamer fishing and I had a big streamer with which this was funny to me because I didn't think it would be like this, but a big streamer with a leech chasing the big streamer which was backwards in my mind, yeah, how I realized that big streamer is partly like, hey, I'm here and the little thing is like, oh, I'm just a little leech, you know. And then the fish is like, boom on it, boom on it. I, when I originally, like the first day, and I was streamer fishing, I got one fish on the streamer and I had it set up. So it was my small fly, then the big fly, because my mind I'm like that leech is getting chased, and then I switched it around and basically my big fly was just something thought awfully flashy, the black leech or a white leech, and the numbers increased.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's like an attractor fly at that point just trying to get their attention.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was. It was a cool experience because never going and I you know I've mentioned it, but I really did think that I would get way more snags Due to having two hooks and it really was not the case. So I was very pleased by that and it was a lot of fun. So, yeah, just used to not using it. So for me it's kind of you know, just another day at the river. But now that I've done it and I'm fishing it, I'm like, oh man, a hopper dropper would be so sick right now, you know. Or even like throwing two dry flies on, which I did in Alberta. You know this, you're not 100% sure what they're feeding on. You do something massive and something small. And, yeah, I did have one streamer set up, get nailed by two fish, which was that's always fun, which was ridiculous because I'm like one's going this. It was hilarious.
Speaker 1:Like in in Maine, where I moved from before I came out to Alaska, you're allowed to use three hooks at a time on fly only water.
Speaker 1:Okay so whether that's like a hopper in two midges or three, or like a stone and then like a midge in another midge or something you know. However, you want to do it Super effective and, like you can. You can pattern fish super quickly because you, like, you're fishing three flies at once, right, so you can figure out what they're feeding on super quickly. That being said, you lose a lot of flies. Like, if that point fly gets snagged, then you're losing all three flies. Essentially, yeah, but yeah, I've definitely had more than one fish hit at the same time and yeah, it's, it's a it's just, it's just a funny experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's super fun, though If you've never experienced it, you're just like oh my god, I think you know you lose your mind. Yeah, it's a double header for one person it's kind of wild. Yeah, it was a really cool experience, going from never being able to tell the sun.
Speaker 1:I'm allowed to do this, and but I feel like fishing one like one fly at a time, especially one like one nymph at a time, I feel like that makes you a lot better of a fisherman, though I'd like to say that about myself, but I haven't caught a steelhead this season, so we'll see. That's a different ball game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes you perceptive, I guess, like I, I changed my flies a lot quicker than I think. I would Hard to say, but if I could just leave two flies on and one be the one always working, I'd still leave the other one and sometimes get fish there. But yeah, it's-.
Speaker 1:It makes you fish water more effectively though, too, With two flies not saying that you're out there casting them willy nilly, but with one fly you're wanting to make sure that's presented so much more perfectly or so much more naturally that makes any sense. I think it does try to make you a little bit better, especially seeing that you have to parse apart what you're going to throw and what you think is going to work and all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I've noticed that Obviously people say this all the time that a one well placed fly is better than a thousand casts. If you're just going out there and you have no idea where you're casting to and then you're just bombing flies out there, smacking the water constantly, no idea what's going on, you're spooking fish. But it was something that I noticed, my buddy, he was doing a really good job and he's definitely getting the hang of yurowing. And the next thing I'm going to be teaching him is streamer fishing. He just loves fly fishing altogether. That's how I am. I love every aspect of it, from beach fishing to dry fly to yurowing, yurowing. I'm getting a little less like I know I can do it and I know I'll get fish. I'm more like I wonder if I can get it on this streamer or I want to see something happen more so willing to catch less fish, to see something the way I want to see it.
Speaker 2:Watching him, we were anchored up in this one spot and he was casting and casting and I was like you got to hit that closer scene, you see where the follow the water and he was like kept kind of missing it or getting in there, but then kind of pulling his arm over or doing some stuff. I was like, can I show you? I flipped it out there, ran it through fish on His eight casts to my one cast made a huge difference. He was like, holy shit, you're a legend. I was like I just got it in that one spot. I wanted you to get it in because that fish was only going to see that fly the way it wanted to see it. If it landed in that seam and it dropped down Everywhere else it was a bit of like… Turbulence and all that Turbulence and stuff. Yeah, exactly, I knew that it wouldn't happen unless it could sink down quickly. We weren't even using a massive bead, which would have been the next step if we weren't catching that fish.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've definitely been in that same instance and I always hate when it happens, because I'm always with somebody who might be newer to fly fishing or is just struggling. This is a good hole. I'm going to let you have first dibs at it, whatever right, and then fishing it and not hitting the seam properly. I'm like here, this is how you do it. And then, yes, that first flip and then you hit that nice fish out of the hole and then it was like son of a bitch, I didn't want to catch this fish, I wanted you to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wanted the fish to be caught, but I didn't want you. Yeah, that was one thing I remember I told the guy I worked for. I was like, yeah, the client, let me fish a little bit today. And he was like that's dangerous territory right there and I was like what do you mean? I mean it was like what if you catch the biggest fish of the day?
Speaker 1:Yup.
Speaker 2:And I was like, ooh, yeah, that's a good point. He was like, if you catch the biggest fish of the day, they're not going home being like, oh man, that guy, the way he's like, they're like that fucking guy. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at that point you've got to purposely miss the good water when you're fishing with them. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's only been one client that I fished with or that I fished after that, and she was just a legend at that day. Her casting was beautiful and it was dry fly fishing all day, which was not normal for the Cowjian River. We nymphed one fish up because it wouldn't come up and I could see the brown and I was like, okay, let's just nymph them up. But she caught multiple rainbows that were like 20, 22 inch and that was like 20 and there was just this one area and she's fishing and catching fish after fish and she's like you take one, this is what you love.
Speaker 2:You got a fish and I was like, no, what if I catch the big one? She's like you can't beat me. I was like, oh, so that was the one since then. But yeah, after that Did you beat her? No, no, and I was honestly like, right as I was swinging and like it got grabbed and I was like, oh, it's a good fish, it was just like a football. Oh, okay, yeah, thick fish. But yeah, she caught the multiple biggers. She's also an experienced angler and I think that would be a difference as well. Yeah, I did catch the big fish, but that's yeah, now it's out of my system. I don't need to fish when I have guests out. I have had a couple of guests be like hey, just so you know we really would be fine if you wanted to fish a run and I've been like it's okay, I really want to see you guys get the fish because really it's the experience you're selling.
Speaker 1:So if you can help someone catch a fish, so one of my really good buddies, he and I don't know if I said this last time on the podcast or what, but he is a phenomenal guy down in Florida and I was talking to him about it and you know he and his client, the day that they went out, caught an almost world record of fish and like it was his client caught it. But he was on the boat, like guiding him obviously, and he was saying like and this goes for like all instances too it's like you as a guide, or like you can't guide him be a bad fisherman, for you know all intended purposes, right, you know how to fish, you know where the fish are lying, you know how you need to present it, you know what fly to use, all that stuff. So when you have a client out and you're and like you know, you take him to the spot and you're like I know that's going to be in this run, it'll be in. You know, in this soft water, eddie, behind that rock, right, I know that there will be a fish hold in there. I know that the fly needs to be presented there. You know X, Y and Z way, and by being able to get a non experienced client on that fish.
Speaker 1:It's like you would you know you would have caught that fish. So, like, any fish that the client catches is like I know also your fish because, like, you made it happen almost, if that makes any sense. So like, yeah, it's like you know that you would have caught that fish. You know that everything would have been great and you would have had a banner day. The fact that you know your client caught 10 fish is like that's just a testament to like who you are as a fisherman and as a teacher that you're able to then put a you know, a potential novice on you know fish. Like that, you know, yeah 100%.
Speaker 2:It's cool, it's really cool, taking someone that has, you know, never done it before and train them up to the point where they're into fish. You know if someone's really not doing good at the beginning and they're really stuck on let's say it's the casting or the mending, or, you know, holding their rod up, if they're yuroing or whatever they're doing. I don't move as quickly down the river at that point because, especially in my system, it's not super long and the fly only, or like the section we go to from the lake down to the takeout is like I think it's like six or seven kilometers. I could be wrong, but it's not. It's not massive, Yep, you know. So you can definitely make a full day just in half of that. Yeah, you know. And that first half, let's say, is more abundant with fish. Okay, yeah, Bainbows and then the browns are maybe a little bit more abundant, or the bigger ones are down lower, kind of things.
Speaker 2:So if they can't get it at the beginning and you blow through it too fast, by the time they get it there's less fish for them to get. Yeah, so I'll work harder with them up higher and I'll tell them. I'll be like, hey, you know, I'm going to move real slow here. We're just going to work through this water, you know. But if we move too fast we're just not going to see as many fish today and then. But that is also a reason I love two days If you're learning anything. Really, two days is many If you're. You know, yeah, anything you're trying to learn. That's new taking having multiple days for you know, if you're going to learn surfing, don't have a half day.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:You're going to stress yourself out. Have a few days, if not like a week Now, do you?
Speaker 1:also so the area that you're fishing is fly only. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Mostly there is like so the lake to the 70.2 mile, which is kind of that halfway mark for the beginning. That's fly only. The next section is gear as well.
Speaker 1:So do you bring a gear rod with you, just like? Let's say, your client come out who's like just can't pick it up, Do you have like no, just in case.
Speaker 2:No, never. I've never fished more than maybe eight toss of a pin reel in a river. I wouldn't even know how to, besides from like I would, but I've. I've never done it. Okay, so you'd cast a spoon. I understand how it would work, you know. You'd cast a spoon at a certain angle, and there's probably a certain angle that would work best, and you'd retrieve the spoon. Yeah, just doesn't interest me, yeah.
Speaker 1:I just didn't know if you had like a fallback to like no, you're going to get it, it's your oing, right.
Speaker 2:So I always have a Euro rod on it on the boat. Gotcha, euro, gotcha. Maybe fishing's not for you. You know what I mean. No, I haven't had any clients not catch fish. Oh, okay, sweet.
Speaker 2:One day where it was a half day and there was a crazy wind day, it was like vicious to the point where, like, the Euro line just would get sucked out of the water because it was that intense. I was panicking in my mind. I kept my cool, but I was panicking in my head. I was like this is scary right now. Like trees crack, that's like on a river.
Speaker 2:And I, that day it was calm morning, I knew there was going to be wind, but sometimes, like, the wind on a river is different than in the valley per se. So sometimes a really windy day won't be that windy on the river. Okay yeah, I don't know if like it will be, but it's I don't know. I've just noticed that like, sometimes I'll see like high wind and I'll get on the river and it won't be as bad as I was expecting. So I kind of was hoping for that, but it was one day where I was doing half that section and I was dropping them off at a lodge, the Cowdgeon River Lodge, which is the lodge that we like to work with. They sometimes get clients for us kind of deal. So they have a pullout which is halfway in that stretch that first stretch. So I had a half day with them so I was able to fish that upper section and they hooked a few but they didn't actually land them.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, all right. So they still touched fish, though.
Speaker 2:They still touched fish, but they didn't actually get in the net, which I was kind of like stressing about. But then hindsight I was like man that day, like yeah, I probably would have landed maybe a couple, but it was so windy.
Speaker 1:But were they like understanding about, like did?
Speaker 2:they, yeah, understanding. They saw they were seasoned fishermen, seasoned anglers, so they knew what they were up against when the wind started getting up and like there's a few times they were like should we go? But anyways, back to the story was I was dropping them off there and I was floating all the way down to my truck. Oh, okay, and I didn't even fish. I just got on the raft and just fricking went because I want off this river right now. Damn, saw two trees fall in the forest and I was like all I don't want, all I don't want, yeah, sure, we'll run with it. All I don't want is for a tree to fall in front of me and block my way and you know, don't have time or a tree to be following me behind. Yeah, so yeah. And it was the river that the fish are in the river, like shit was coming down on me and I was like not happy, I don't give up easily. So that was the only time I've ever know.
Speaker 2:Maybe there's been other times with wind. Wind is one of those things you know when you're going down a river on a raft and you can't just pop out and like call it a day at any time, and there's wind. It's a bit of a scary thing. So, yeah, it was an interesting day. They did, they did hook into a few, but they couldn't land it. But even the raft went out anchor up, which normally the raft will hold pretty damn good, especially with my ores. I got warlocks, yeah, so my or my ores sit, you know, straight in the water, yeah, and that keeps me pretty pinned and steady.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little bit of flow back and forth, but that day it was like pushing me so like they couldn't hold the straight line. Oh shit, okay, it was intense. So that's, that's the only time I've never I didn't have clients hit it. But also, a half day guiding is kind of Kind of silly. Yeah, I mean, if that's all you got time for and you're an advent angler and you're super excited to be on that piece of water and you're catching a flight or something, I totally get it. But yeah, I mean, the funny thing is they did ask like, hey, well, if you want to keep going, even though it was like not great conditions, they were like we'd be finding because I told them I had to go down there, and they're like, oh, we'll come down with you and fish, and I was like paid for a half day, like yeah, we paying for a full day now and full day in this, it's kind of like exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I mean, like any, any time on the water is good time on the water, but sometimes it's not a productive amount of time on the water, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, and there's not many scenarios that will get me off the river. But that day, with the wind, I was like, yeah, I really wish I didn't have my truck down there. Mind you, I made it out alive. I'm here, yeah, yeah, and nothing bad happened. But yeah, I think on a river is when you're draft, when you're drifting, it's all like I've been in really high water on my water master where I should have not been on that water, and it's totally fine. Everything you're going, you're going with the flow of the water doesn't even seem that fast. You know you're moving faster than normal, but it's like fine until it's not. Then it's not okay at all. Yeah, that's rafting, so like it's always fine. You know whitewater rafters. They're going down this crazy shit doing like spins under the water and stuff popping out, and it's all fine until it's not fine, and then it's also, like you got to think, like the craft that you choose is going to be optimal and only a certain amount of like instances.
Speaker 1:Like you're not going to take a 14 foot raft down class you know four rapids where you'll take like a whitewater dagger down that right. Like your raft is made for only you know is optimal for only certain waters, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so like I took, especially with like being higher up in chairs where you're yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like I took a granted it was my first time like floating or my first time like taking it out I have like a single man cataract. It's like a, I think it's like nine feet long or something like that and it's just like a two-pond tunes with a seat in the middle you can like you put your feet up on like kind of stirrups almost, and like you could stand up if you want to stop. But it's got two paddles or two oars. I should say man, I took that out on the river with a buddy the first time I used it. He was in his, I think he had like a 12 foot little like raft and then I had my cataract and little did we know, like we didn't look at the flow gauge beforehand, we floated it at like the river. We floated it was flowing at 2800 CFS at that point and normal like fishing stage is anywhere from eight to like 1200 CFS. Yeah, move it. So it was like way higher than we should have ever even thought about fishing it and I got locked right into a sweeper. Like I was trying to.
Speaker 1:I like spun my raft and I was trying to like back out and the oars were a little short, so they skipped off the water a couple of times because I was like trying to go fast in the panicking a little bit and I wasn't able to clear this sweeper that was.
Speaker 1:I was like going right into, I got pinned right into it and my downstream or hit that log, popped out of the or lock and just never to be seen again.
Speaker 1:And then I'm like putting all of my body weight over the downstream on tune because the water is coming down, like trying to flip me on, like trying to flip me under right, and eventually my buddy got down below the log. He hopped out and we flipped my cataract over the lock and we like hooked a strap to the upstream pontoon and like completely rolled it over and thankfully his raft was big enough for both of us where we just floated down and with mine like in tow. But man, like it definitely taught me that there's certain times you shouldn't take certain craft on the water and like it made me realize the power of water real quick. Like it put that fear back in my eye. Like I was going down, I didn't have a life jacket on, I had it with me but I wasn't wearing it and like the second, I hit that log I was like oh shit, and I threw it on like immediately and like it was.
Speaker 2:It was sketchy for sure, but yeah, I had the same experience where, like my water master and it vied, it split and the left side was quite fast and the right side was quite mellow and oh, right side for sure, like no need to go down that crazy shit. But there was a log jam but there was plenty of room to get around it and I was new to rafting and by the time I was getting closer to it it went from being, you know, 15 feet deep to being like a foot or half a foot. Oh shit, like look, did not look fast, but it was fast. Dude, that, that fast, smooth water is.
Speaker 2:I couldn't dig my oars. It was a little water master. I couldn't turn sideways to like start pulling myself out, yep, and so too late I was. I was in it, my friend was behind me I think it might have been one of his first drifts, if not his first drift and so he moved over enough and was able to pass it, but then he went on the beach and just watched me basically almost die. It was not a, it was not a log jam. I could climb off, yep, but it was still a sketchy like inches everywhere, and I ended up throwing my shit over top when I like, yeah, finally got it. I know I've talked about that one before. That's something I got to work on is not talking about the same stories on my podcast.
Speaker 1:I mean I've never heard it, but I mean I haven't listened every episode.
Speaker 2:I feel like some of the people. It's just my own thoughts in my brain, because I'm always trying to. I want to improve the podcast for for listeners for sure, and I think a lot about it. So that's one thing I think of is like don't repeat too many of the same stories, but then again I haven't been fishing for that you know insane amount of time, so it's not like I have a billion stories, but I mean like.
Speaker 1:That being said, there's multiple lessons that can be taken up, each story for different reasons too.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and then if I guess, if there's new listeners and they might have not heard it, so all these things, but yeah, I don't know more of the stories.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I'm buggered.
Speaker 2:I don't know what the story is. Everyone knows how many steelhead I hooked last season and how many I haven't learned season and how many I hooked this season. So I apologize for that, but this is real life shit happening. This is me living it and I do it weekly. So it just like you know, and with a new person, if I've never talked to them and they asked me a question, I'm not going to be like I've talked about that. I'm not answering you. So it's kind of is what it is.
Speaker 2:But yeah, man, it's like I said, it's all good on the river until it's not. So, you know, not waiting out too deep, especially if it's fast moving water, if there's a drop off and you might not know it, if it's super murky, man, I don't even I don't go past like Maybe not even knee deep, because unless I really know the spot and I'm confident that I'm fine, it's like super calm or whatever. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely scenarios where it's like it's not worth it, it's fishing. Yeah, you're just out there to have a good time and the only way you can keep having a good time is if you're still alive for it. So yeah, I take my life jacket very seriously. There are times where I'll take it off and not worry so much.
Speaker 1:And like the, I floated with a friend over the summer on her raft and she's like, yeah, do you have like a life jacket with you? And I brought one with, but then she it was like a inflatable, okay, but then she had like an actual, like like a class four PFD the ones that aren't inflatable or whatever yeah, yeah, yeah, not like the big bulky orange ones, but just like a normal life jacket, okay. And and she was like, yeah, like use this instead, or whatever. And I was like, oh, like yeah, like we just have to have them on the raft with us, right, like we don't have to wear them. And I was like, for whatever reason, I was like being stupid and thinking like, oh, I don't want to look like an idiot wearing a life jacket, like who am I, you know? And it's like it doesn't matter if you look like a goon or not, Like your life might be saved by it and like you know, if you die, looking quote unquote fashionable versus live like a goon, you know what's what's better.
Speaker 2:You know your parents aren't going to be there. Like well, you know he looked good while he went out. Why wasn't he wearing it? And then, and the thing like with guests, I like them wearing it. Obviously I've been like, oh, I don't like wearing it and I'm like, look, it's on my raft. I have to deal with you any situation. And I've grown confidence on this, like telling people being more stern, like no, this is how we're doing it.
Speaker 2:When I first started guiding, I didn't have that kind of confidence. I was definitely a little more like you know, yeah, I have a word for it, but I don't know if I should say a push over. If you will, sure, we'll go push over, that's the word I was thinking. But now it's like, you know, I've had a couple of people go in the water because they weren't listening and I wasn't stern on it. Yeah, and actually both those people, they were behind me, they're sitting behind me, and I didn't see them while I was trying to deal around stuff or whatever it may be. So, yeah, now it's like hey, they're just so we're clear. I'm the captain and that's what the guy that worked for told me. He's like man, you're the one that's responsible for anything that goes on down there. Yeah, exactly, you can't just like allow someone to do what they want because you don't want to be rude. And if that person you know, blah, blah, blah, he's got my back. So it's yeah, I'm the captain, my choice, my rules.
Speaker 2:During the summer, you know, I'm not so concerned, like when I was in Cranbrook, we had our life jackets close by. But if you fell in the river, it's an enjoyable little swim. You could literally stand up at basically any point and walk out of the river, and even if it wasn't, you're in like clothes. But if you're wearing waders and you get sucked into the or you drop into the water, your waders are going to fill up. Most people don't know how to swim in waders. I've never had to swim in waders but I've been told it's actually on your back, back strokes this, not forward, because then you'll suck in more water. So on your back, going upstream, but just like you were on a raft.
Speaker 1:So if like waters, angle stream back and out, yeah.
Speaker 2:So then I would be kind of on an angle trying to go upstream, so you're kind of just slowly moving over, and that's another thing is like I would get myself out of a situation if I ever fell in the water. Well how? But I'm surviving, and if I don't, I damn well tried hard.
Speaker 1:But, like you said, it's different when you're in a river that's calm and that you can stand up on, but, like the Kenai, where, like I do a lot of the floating that I do, there are areas that the, yeah, you could just stand up and you'd be fine. But then there's also areas that are like 15 to 25 feet deep and it's like you fall into that and there's all sorts of like water features and, like you know, under toes and eddies and all that stuff and it's like, yeah, and even at the end of the day you fall into knee deep water but you hit your head Like life jackets are made to keep your head above water If you do go down right.
Speaker 2:So that's the scariest thing. We had a bit of a funny thing over the weekend. We were I guess it was Friday, today, saturday, but so yesterday but we were drifting and there was a branch, like a low hanging branch, and my buddy wasn't paying attention. So I like set it up, so tapped him in the head, you know. And then my other buddy was was rowing and there was a branch same kind of scenario. But when it came up, this branch wasn't a soft branch, like it didn't move, and my one friend like pinned it and pushed it away and then it smacked my buddy who wrote us into it, and then like, of course, bounced back and then it came and I blocked my face and it smacked me into my elbow. We all laughed and then we're like, but shit, if that would have hit your head. We all got like slightly serious and laughed again, but it was like, oh yeah, that would have, like that could have knocked. No, better not to go play with branches, I guess.
Speaker 1:But it's like, everything's funny until it's not.
Speaker 2:And it was really funny. But it was also like a wake up of like, yeah, a moment, next branch that comes by we're avoiding no need for it. You know, my friend knew how to row and he even mentioned it. He was like, yeah, that branch probably shouldn't have been messed with. But yeah, boys will be boys and we're all alive.
Speaker 2:So but yeah, this the safety on a river is is a huge thing. You know, when you're guiding or when you're with friends, whatever, don't try to look cool just to like, yeah, cool, I like a life jacket, one of its big water. It pays to mine, for me. And if my guide, like both the clients PDFs that they have or that I have for them, self inflate under a certain water, mine is a pull and I probably will eventually upgrade to the to the next one. But I just didn't want to cheap out for clients just because those, you know, 50 bucks per one. But you just don't know. With clients I mean, how good's your swimming, how good's my swimming? How good's this other person If it's a kid, I'm, you know even that more cautious with. I tell people to hold on, even when I know it's not big water. You know it's not like we're going on class four, but if it's choppy I'm like, hey, just grab onto your seat. I'm getting another stand up bar. Okay, sweet, I have one for the back now for streamer fishing. The thing I've noticed is when I get on my raft, I have a bar to hold on to. Yeah, Also for older people that's. That's a big thing, a big reason why. So it's almost not even for streamer fishing I got the bars, but of course that's a beautiful, yeah, yeah Little thing as well. I mean, when I'm when someone's rowing my raft, I can stand no problem, even if it's choppy or even if they twist me, because I kind of bend my knees and let my knees rest on the front of the raft. So, worse comes to worse, I just collapse down into the raft.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not trying to teach someone how to be balanced. I haven't seen you. You know not that I'm. I can ride it. I used to be able to ride and spend a long time, but I could ride a unicycle, so I got some balance. You can also juggle really well, can you? I used to be able to do like really well. I can still juggle like pins and, yeah, I've done fire. Oh sweet yeah. So you know, my hand eye coordination is like quite there. My balance is really there, so I feel very good on water. I've oceaned my whole life so I know I feel safe. But when I see other people and you know they they wobble off of me just rowing. I'm like can you please sit, like you know.
Speaker 1:So so kind of I'll change pace a little bit. I'll ask you so what's your summer looking like? Are you guiding, you know, full bore this summer, or like I got.
Speaker 2:I got a couple months coming up here of guiding on my home river and then a month, let's see what is it. So April, may, I'll be like, definitely guiding if anyone wants to go down the river with me. It's a great time to book as well for the actual fishing. Like there are we're catching fish now, but it's going to heat up with the temperatures will come out, so I'll be great. And then I'll be going to Cranbrook July. So I'll be in Cranbrook the beginning of July all the way to the end of September, um, guiding on the, uh, st Mary's, the Elk and the Bull River. Oh, hell, yeah, cranbrook. So, yeah, super excited it's going to be. It's going to be a tough one being away from home in the low one, um, for that long, but, um, this is just what I really want to be doing, like I, I love taking people down the river and, um, there's, yeah, I got a straight calling for it. I just cannot, can't wait to get back on the water guiding this season.
Speaker 2:I missed my season because when I got back from Cranbrook, um, our river system was was closed and then it opened up. Uh, november 15th and November 18th I left for my honeymoon for a couple of weeks and by the time I was back, um, it was basically you know air quotes the end of the season, also starting to get cold and most people don't really like to go for the cold. So, yeah, I pretty much. Yeah, I haven't guided since Cranbrook. Okay, okay it's. It's been a hot minute which was nice in terms of being able to just fish steel head for myself and the river for myself, but I miss it so much.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah. So yeah, I'll be in Cranbrook for three months and I'm super excited for that. I think it'll be busier this year than I was last year. And then, yeah, it's, it's exciting. I'm a super pumped to be with the people I'm with, um, everyone's like so helpful. And, you know, shout out the, the guide I work for, ray. He's just given me the opportunity to do this and and to be guiding not only on this system, which I love, but then go get introduced to like some world-class fly fishing out in Cranbrook is, for my, you know, my first year guiding was, you know, legendary. And then to be asked to come back and and do it full the full season was like pretty much a straight honor.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so very, very excited for that. Um, I'll probably I'll be able to come down and fish with you. You should do that would be so cool.
Speaker 1:Um, if I got a break from work, I'm going to be like false to the wall.
Speaker 2:Busy, but hopefully you won't call your work and be like, hey, let my man come fish, Give it a Southern draw. So they're like, oh yeah, he's serious. Um, yeah, it's, it's going to be good. I'm really, really pumped to go chase um bowls again. Yeah, Days off hopefully not too many days off, but all my days off will be chasing bowls, indoor streamer fishing for cutties, and then after I plan on going back to the bow river, because that is a system. That's a system.
Speaker 1:I've heard magical, magical stories about the bow.
Speaker 2:And I caught such nice fish there, yeah, and we got beautiful fish here and every system you know. You're used to the size, so whether it's massive for someone else or not, when you catch you know if your system only has. You know if it's a small creek and it only has up to like 12 inch and you catch a 14, your mind explodes.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And so for me, like a 20, 22 inch trout, that's whether it's brown or rainbow, I'm like that's a big fish, yep, and I know there's rainbows that get, you know, bigger, and I know there's browns that get bigger. So when I went there and I was catching you know, 20, 22, 24 inch rainbows, I think I had one that was a little bit bigger. I don't measure them, but you get the rough estimate when you fish enough. And then when I was there, I caught which we actually measured these two a 28 inch brown, I believe it was. Might have been 26.
Speaker 2:Maybe my my brain's foggy on that. At that moment I was like that's, that's my biggest brown ever. Oh yeah, it was swinging at night, it was super cool. And then like worked the run again and then caught a 31 inch brown, no shit, at night, like so sick it was. My buddy was like losing it, I was losing it, I was like it's so sick and he like had the tape and I was like I'm like double PB on that river now. So, yeah, yeah, now I'm. I can't even express how much I want to go back there. If there was a system I were to go move to off the island. It would either be in Cranbrook or the bow river and I know that I just haven't explored enough to to say other names. But you know, to go chase like it'd be so hard to give up steelhead for anything. But if I were to going for for bulls, that's, those looks so sick and like that, it would be so cool. But then the bow river being able to swing, swing for rainbows and browns all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know my buddy is out there and he basically is capable of swinging all year round. There's maybe a slight time with depending how frozen the the banks get and stuff that he might not be able to.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I mean like the, the key knife swings all year long Like I'm down tomorrow. I was down last weekend, I hit one rainbow. I'm going on tomorrow, hopefully hit one at least, and then yeah.
Speaker 2:I like that, this the cow gin. I know I haven't spent enough time like once again. You know, seven years or whatever it's been since I started fly fishing is not actually that long of a time. I've spent a lot of hours. But I can, you know, another seven years from now, who knows where I'll be kind of deal. But yeah, I mean I swing for steelhead but last year and this year I've been getting more other like browns and rainbows, because I've been swinging more classic flies that are maybe a little more natural or not as massive tube fly Like here I am Yep Kind of thing. So I've been swinging up other fish. So I believe there is more swinging that I can do on my own my home river here.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So trout space, something I really want to get into. I keep saying and I just need to go buy it. But you know, money gets stretched then when you go to whole family and expensive area to live in yeah, it's an island, so it's expensive, and then gas for me to travel up and all that. So there's limit limitations to how much I've been getting out fishing now based off those two things. So, yeah, I'm sure there's more swinging I can do on my days, but yeah, trout space, definitely something on there. And then streamer fishing. If I had to give up every, if I can only pick two types of fly fishing and I had to give up everything, it would be swinging and streamer fishing. I love dry fly fishing, not knocking it, it's freaking sick. But watching a fish charge a streamer and you're just like stripping as hard as you can it's, you know, it's gangster.
Speaker 1:So I mean plus, you can't really dry fly fish in the ocean either. So like you got to think that too.
Speaker 2:No, I'm sure you could. I'm sure if, like, you spent your whole life and you just never gave up on it, it would happen and you're not like, oh yeah, I went dry fly fishing, maybe poppers would, you could tie into that. But poppers, consider dries though, like exactly, it's like a streamer. But yeah, I know what you mean, man, it's it's you don't have that ability to to do like what you do. I'm sure, like estuaries, during the right time of the season, you could probably run, but no, it's not dry fly fishing Like you're, you know, watching a hatch and all that. So, yeah, I'm just captivated by a spay casting. I do it because I love it, not because I'm catching fish.
Speaker 1:Also it's like it's pretty active, so it keeps you like it keeps your mind busy, right.
Speaker 2:Like I don't think of the fish. Well, I do, I don't. I'm not. Like you know, if I'm yurowing and I've gone through a spot, there's something that's got to give you know, throw on a new fly or be like maybe they're lower down there. But with swinging it's like you start here and you swing through. You might change your fly once or twice, or maybe do the run and then go back up and change your fly, change your swing speed or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, it's just so peaceful. But I, you know, I love laying out line. So, like streamer fishing and dry fly fishing, you get a lay outlined. You're kind of just plopping your fly in there and holding your arm up, and super effective, great way to learn where fish lay, great way to learn your bugs, because you, you're very active in what's working. Even if you're missing the fish, you feel it. So you know you missed a fish. Yep, and that's because if you're a long leader or like, if I'm going to throw on a bobber for myself to nymph, why not just Euro? Yeah, yeah, a dry dropper, that's a different story. But why throw on a bobber when you'll just Euro? Maybe a distance? I guess that would be. The only thing is if I'm trying to really hit the distance, but then if I'm on a raft I'll move over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, yeah. Like all, I haven't quite got fully into Euro yet. I still run a lot of indicators.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But like all also, like all double haul, like an indicator rig out there, like all double haul, like a 35, 40 foot cast and men Men, yeah, and just like you throw a stack men over, like just rip out a bunch of line, and just like throw stack men's and just like shoot the same seam, and like you can't do that with Euro as easily, yeah, and I think the only thing I'm thinking of is I'm not a big fisherman.
Speaker 2:I've been to the dark side, you know, yeah, you know what I mean. It's like if you're like you know, a pot head, and then your buddy comes back a heroin addict not sorry if that relies to you, but or it relates to you, but you know what I mean like it's just different realms. So like once you've been to the Euro and you're trying to go back to you know, I just don't. And the only time I like watching an indicator while I'm fly fishing is chronomids in a lake. I'll watch the shit out of that indicator if I'm not 10, 15 feet, but then it's once again. It for me in my brain. And since I'm not, I wouldn't consider myself snobby with anything because I like it all is If you're trying to do the best presentation to mimic that food source, that's possible, then under an indicator with a chronomid is the best way to mimic a chronomid, or long lining it with like a yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, you can do the naked technique where you have, you know, a 25, 30 foot liter hard to toss around. So if it's a windy day or now you're seeing a sinking line straight down, but anything that you're doing, it has to mimic that bug. So yeah, and then for my home river, most of the time while we're fishing it, and it's not dry fly season, it's fast moving water. So getting an indicator rig to get that presentation takes a lot more time. But then I'm in fly only I can't even use an indicator.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So I learned without an indicator, I caught fish with just a dry line and a long leader. Yep, you know how to do it. It is totally possible, and that's something I prefer doing when I'm out, like when I was in Cranbrook and I was fishing by myself and the dry fly fishing was tough and I was like I wonder if I could get one on a nymph. I just would cut off the dry fly and throw on a nymph and then just stack mend and get it down and then wait for that line to twitch and then just set there's a white fish. Woo, I don't knock white fish either, though they're cool. Yeah, I get why guides really don't like them, and I get why people don't really like them, because they're mouth and they suck that nymph in and it's so deep and you're like and then that fish is struggling. You're struggling like it's a whole thing, but the fish itself is cool.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure, like if you get like a good size white fish, yeah Hell yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and I like I use a three and a four weight for trout. Maybe I'll beef that up for browns during the winter just because of the heavy flow. Yeah, but any four weight will be able to do it if you know what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then for clients, five weight would be better, probably, but I also just need to not spend so much money on fishing shit. So you know we spend enough already. You know I went to buy hooks and I bought like a bunch of packs and some beads and tallyed it up, didn't buy any materials, because I'm set on materials, I'm okay for now and it came up to 150 bucks and I was like, oh my God, that is so good. I feel so good about myself. I have some really small money here today. And I even set a golf owner and he was like, yeah, you're really watching your spending these days. I don't see you very often and when you come in you seem to have like a list of what you're getting and you stick to it. And I'm like, yeah, I'm doing really good. Man, 50 bucks, that's. You know, if you tell that to someone that throws worms, they're like what you know you spend how much on hooks? I'm like, yeah, like eight packs of hooks and three things of beads and I'm deep in it.
Speaker 1:But but like I think with fly tying, like the upfront cost is like pretty large because you got to buy all the materials. But then, like you buy a pack of Maribou and you have enough Maribou for like 100 flies. Yeah, like you know, you get, you get rolls of tinsel or thread and it's like you tie hundreds of flies with you know one roll of thread versus you know if you're, if you're out buying worms every time you go out fishing it's like you're one worm per fish, right.
Speaker 2:I tell it up, when I first got back into fishing I'm pulling out my calculator say, a pack of 18 worms, I think at the time was like $12. Shit, I was fishing basically every day. So let's just count it down to four to five days a week and just for this math we'll just go four days. So I was buying at least one pack Every day, every day, sometimes two, so let's just do 12. So let's say one pack a day times four. And I did it for a full year like hardcore on worms and Powerbait, but I mostly fished worms, yeah. So yeah, that that got really crazy. So, yeah, 12. So 12 times four times 52. Four, oh, I could have. Yeah, so that's one month times 12. That's $2,304 I spent on worms and it's probably more than that when I.
Speaker 1:That was Yikes, yeah, and that's when I stopped fishing worms and that's just worms, that's not hooks and split shot or Powerbait or anything right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I found fly fishing on Charles. Like you know, everyone says it like oh well, I'll just tie my own flies and save a ton. And now I have like four grand worth of fly tying material. Easy, Yep, Yep. I wouldn't even want to count it up. But I mean, if we just that's 150 bucks on hooks and I have so many boxes, yeah, but Not even the worst person out there.
Speaker 1:Potential to make all those flies yeah, and $4,000 materials will last you usually quite a bit, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there's the one thing that, like whenever someone gets into fly tying and they ask me questions, I'm like look here, okay, don't just go out and buy a bunch of materials. You need to have a recipe for the flies you're tying. And because you're new to fly fishing, you also need to figure out what flies work, yep. So buy them off of someone that ties and if you don't have that, go to your shop and really sweet talk them and get some good flies to start off with. Fish them, yeah, and then find out which ones you're confident on. Then go buy those materials for the flies. Start there, mm-hmm, and stick to those for a season. Get good at tying those, learn your craft, yeah, and start dipping.
Speaker 2:Because what I did, which is the most inefficient way, is I would look at one pack of crystal flash and I would buy five different colors Yep, and now I have 20 different colors of crystal flash that I fucking never use Yep, because I don't use crystal flash very often, and when I do use it, it's one strand out of it and it's probably root beer and some of the lighter blue type ones. But even at that, now they brought out new materials that I needed to buy.
Speaker 1:Now I'm looking at like that is like the worst, the worst is when you go into a fly shop and there's like a discount thing, oh God, and it's like a pack of you know, let's say, let's say Maribou, right, it's like a pack of this, like hot pink Maribou or something that would typically cost seven, eight bucks, is now on sale for $250 or $350. And you're like, well, shit, I'll use it at some point, I've got to buy it. And then you have it in your store of materials and it's never been used, right yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a big like. Learning how to buy materials takes time. Anyone that I've ever taught how to fly fish, I've taught them how to get materials, how to get rods and such that won't cost you an arm and legs. I'm like, hey, you know there's burkheim or there's a sage, but have you fished that long to appreciate that rod? Probably not. Don't get sage.
Speaker 1:And then that was our first, that was the first time on the podcast was we? We shit on some companies together.
Speaker 2:We did a little bit. You know, if you're going to charge me that much money, you better frickin repair my rods quicker and take better rods, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:We bonded over Echo and Lampson. We did bond yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what I like to tell people. I'm like, look, you got to, you got to think of it, especially for your reel. You know you got to think about it Like you're just getting there, you go there it is.
Speaker 1:Reddington till. I die man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Reddington's owned no Sage. Reddington owns Sage, right.
Speaker 1:It's Sage Reddington and Airflow no. Sage Reddington and Rio are are far bank outfitters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but then there's still RAND separately. But, sage, just I think, or I don't know, I don't know what you're telling me.
Speaker 1:It's like one head company and then it's like the three little individual entities.
Speaker 2:The hand tatties. Let's see them yeah.
Speaker 1:The head and tail. They're just starting to peel now and like, but yet hurt like a bastard though. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I do not, I don't see it, but yeah, he has a trout head and a trout tail on his hands.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do not recommend it. See anybody out there. Palm tattoos hurt Very much.
Speaker 2:So much Very bad. Yeah, yeah, it's a, but yeah, back to like the brands. You know the I've bought in. You know the remix and the Lampson liquid reels, and the only reason I bought them aside from the reels actually being good is they come with spare spools. Yep, getting into lake fishing and you're brand new to it, chances are you're going to listen to this podcast, another podcast, watch some videos and the guy's going to say like, oh well, you know, I got my floating, my intermediate, my medium sink, my fast sink, my type seven, four, five. You know I just did that in a shit order, so don't mark my words. But yeah, you know, like a type three, type five and a type seven, and some people go even more than that. So it's like are you going to go buy each of those reels or would you rather just start with one reel that has three spools and you can put, you know a type seven, your intermediate and your floating line, and you're good for a couple of years of learning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I did was like one of the first reels I bought, actually the first combo I bought. It was from a guy off a Craigslist. It's like I don't know if you guys have something similar to it in Canada. It's like it was the predecessor to Facebook Marketplace, where it was like if somebody was trying to sell something online, they posted it at the Craigslist. Yeah, we didn't have Craigslist as well, gotcha. Yeah, I didn't know if you guys had it, but it was a TFO BVK nine foot five weight, which is a piss missile of a rod. I love it. You know a Reddington Rise. And then they started like it was kind of towards the end of their Reddington. It was the original Reddington Rise. Like there's the new Reddington Rise. Actually, I have them right here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when in doubt, whip them out. That's what my midwife told my wife, and I let them know as well.
Speaker 1:This was the OG Rise and then now, like this is the new Rise, right, yeah, this is the newer one. Yeah, they were starting to like not make these or produce them as many or as much. So all like the fly shops I'd go to would all have like the spare spools on sale for like pretty cheap. Yeah, like, instead of like 80 or 90 bucks, they were like on sale for like 50 bucks. So I was able to get spare spools for this for like pretty cheap, but like, yeah, it's the same thing, like those lamps, and they come in like three packs of like the real and then two spare spools, yeah, and so with mine, I like I put on a sink tip and a full sink, like I'm a big, I'm a big color guy, so like they're all different colors for different applications, right?
Speaker 1:Gotta be, but man haven't used this room so fucking long. Yeah, that's the benefit I see to do it at least.
Speaker 2:One thing too, I experienced with buying a reel was I bought a reel on discount because it was going out, was never able to get more spools for it because it was discontinued and no one really had them in stores and then no one was really selling them on like. I never found another spool and I searched not that hard, but I searched hard, let's say for another reel. It was I think it was the reel that came before the spectrum. Oh yep, I do like Sage Reels. Not as hard knock on Sage Reels, but I did have one blow up on me but I definitely do like them. And it was brand new reel, not even a full year I had it in the drag. Blew up on me when I was out steelheading in minus three, minus four degree weather.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have a Sage Spectrum. See, there's multiple different levels of spectrums, right.
Speaker 2:Sage Spectrum. Spectrum C, yep, the Saltwater one, which is the Sage Spectrum, something I think.
Speaker 1:It's not the Spectrum C, it's like one of the other ones.
Speaker 2:Maybe the C is the Saltwater one, and I'm confused.
Speaker 1:However it goes, the drag is blown on it. But honestly, like, if I fully crank the drag, you can still pull line off of it with pretty easy tension. Honestly, I love it and I will never get it fixed because I love the fact that I can put full tension on, still be able to pull line off. So even if a fish makes a run on full drag, it's still going to take line out and I have gotten into playing the reel with my hand. Or, honestly, if you're holding the rod, you can put tension on with your pinky. You can censor it with your pinky or ring finger pretty well.
Speaker 2:I just got my first click and pull reel, and I will be. And then I just came to realize not long ago that my buddy actually has a click and pull reel for his trout rod the fly set up and I have yet to actually.
Speaker 2:Well, I caught one. I caught a really nice rainbow on his set up with the click and pull, but I always set my drag. So it's just like me pulling fast off my reel. It won't birds nest, but not a ton of drag. And I've always calmed my reels and if it is a caged reel I would put my finger inside of it. That sounds funny. I'd put my finger inside of it or kind of hold the line. So I've always basically treated my reels as a click and pull. It's just that much more fun.
Speaker 1:Like. Very seldom do I actually crank the drag down right, Very seldom am I putting it like full force on a fish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly and honestly with, like bigger fish, not cranking that drag down probably will save you them, because when they do that first burst of run, if your drag is too high you lose the fish. Oh, yeah, yeah, if it's too low at birds nest, so that midpoint where it can still run but not birds nest and it's everything's good. But then you apply extra pressure. Like very rarely will I ever crank my drag up a little bit higher during a fight, like it's happened some spring salmon just because I was like all right, I need a little bit more than even just my hand, like this thing's a beast. But yeah, it's to me it's fun to fight a fish with a click and pull. I bet you in our lifetime we'll see a little bit more of a click and pull outburst again.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's a lot like. Maybe there is more than I know, and I'm just yeah, like I feel like a lot of people Euro with click and pull and then, like, sage has a couple that they've come out with, ross has a couple.
Speaker 2:You know, islander Reels what Brent Islander?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:They're made on the Island. Oh, Putting it out there Now. Islander Reels are awesome they're. They're loud reel Like the clicking is loud, but they make ocean rod for Reels and then they.
Speaker 1:Send me the link after this.
Speaker 2:I want to check out Beautiful Reels, like if you search up Islander Reels. They are gorgeous. People that like Islander Reels love Islander Reels and I think for the price point it's a little bit higher. So maybe it's not your beginner reel but they since they started with Saltwater Reels I think almost all of them are saltwater rated. Maybe some of the fly Reels aren't, but they are very good Reels and it's not a massive company. So if you call them and you're like I mean especially for me being on the Island if I call them and said, hey, I need this CERN spring, if mine broke, they'll send it to you.
Speaker 1:Oh, really Okay.
Speaker 2:And then also they're just very on it and one of my good friends, jordan. He works for Islanders as well. So oh hell yeah. You know me and you, you grease me up a little, I could probably get to your stuff fixed quick. No, probably, not Maybe, but at least for me or my friends we could probably at least get an inside man to tell us what we're looking at here. So yeah, you're looking Reels too. We are really good looking Reels. I'm not sponsored by them. I don't even own an Islander reel.
Speaker 1:They're very like classic Spay Reel looking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's. There's one, the MR3, I think it's called Sometimes again, I don't own one so I might be wrong, but it's a. It's a. It's a center pin reel that you can convert into a fly reel, and then it's like, basically like an old school click and paw which is super. Um, yeah, really nice Reels, very durable. Yeah, my one friend put his through the ringer and it did eventually have issues, but he also put it through the ringer's heart. So, yeah, I'm not sponsored by anything. So everything I talk about is literally me out there fishing or what I've heard from people, and I kind of like it that way. I was talking with the last guest about monetizing the podcast eventually, because I guess that's kind of you know, eventually we're all go. But I don't ever want to have to be like, oh, get this product when it's not something I full on live by.
Speaker 1:Yep, Um, I feel like once you, once you sell out that's. That's a point where it takes a turn, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I feel like most fly companies and fly fishing companies, um, are, I feel like all my flies that I've tied have slightly made the gills bigger and bigger until I got to this fly and had to like, whoa, that's too big. Um, anyways, yeah, I feel like a lot of the smaller companies anyways that I might ever get on with, let's say, if that does ever happen probably are something I would. I would stand behind a hundred percent, but I don't want, you know, yeah, I don't want to angle someone towards that that was a little fishing terminology there towards something just because I'm trying to make a buck. Um, I think I guess that would be sell out if I ever did. Yeah To me. It's like you know, I've found brands that are expensive or inexpensive and the reasons I like them always come to like reliability, uh, cost, and then you know I've been nervous. Will you get it back to me?
Speaker 1:That's which I think, like COVID, kind of changed the mentality of a lot of people with that, Like Orvis and Temple Fork, now you can just go on their website and order the part that you need. Like, let's say, you snap the midsection of a rod, you know to send it back to them in order to get it fixed. You just go on their website and you say I have this rod, uh, this, this part of the rod broke, and then you pay, you know, 30, 40, 60 bucks and they'll send you that, you know that midsection of the okay legacy nine foot five weight. They'll send you the second piece needed or whatever you know.
Speaker 2:That's where Echo and TFO I think I believe TFO does that as well where he's got a piece, and then for me having my fly shop that I love so much shout out Robinson's. Yeah, you know, they've always had the piece for me, and then, if not, they've done some things to make it happen much quicker. Yeah, and so yeah, I mean like even when I talk about sending my waiters away, which I've only now done once in my lifetime, it's a hard thing if you don't have two pairs of waiters and not everyone can afford two pairs and not everyone fishes enough to have two pairs, but if you're definitely used my work waiters once or twice when, like my personal's, got holes in it.
Speaker 1:Well, I got this pair from work, but uh yeah it's supposed to, but I am. Yeah, like at that point. It's like if I break my work pair then it's on me. You know, but yeah, I'll use my work pair for a day or two while the aqua seal dries on the other one. Yeah, and then I'll just go back using my personal's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's, that's like I don't know, but we're really good experiences with, uh, with Patagonia. Their waiters have done me really well and there's a they have a Patagonia place in Vancouver so I just need to send it in. Oh really, I believe. So, yeah, it happens fast. Like I sent my last pair in and then the store that sent it in got a credit for me. So when I went there I was able to just go, grab the same waiters and walk out with a brand new pair. Sweet.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I mean you don't, you can't do that for your whole life, I guess, or maybe like, depending, but you know being able to get another pair of waiters when they cost. I got the zipper one. If you have the extra money to get the zipper on your waiters and it rains a lot where you are buy them and and then wait like a month of fishing in heavy rain when you need to take a piss and then send me a message and be like these still weren't worth it. And I would be shocked Is that when you can have your rain jacket on and just unzip your rain jacket, unzip your waiters and take a piss. I know, ladies, I'm sorry, sorry ladies, but I think I guess there is that one thing that women can use, that yeah.
Speaker 1:And I've heard that still like messy as hell though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't see that being so. This is for guys. I'm sorry, message me and tell me they weren't worth it. They weren't worth that extra hundred dollars.
Speaker 1:I'm actually going to use my first pair of zipper waiters tomorrow. Yeah, I've used them before and I just got a pair and I'm going to give it a go.
Speaker 2:Just stand, crack your neck, roll your shoulders back, close your eyes, unzip your jacket, unzip your waiters, let it all hang out and just take a piss. Open your eyes and look around and you'll feel the beautiful bliss With a rain jacket on and heavy rain and it's not raining. Just pretend it's pouring on you and you just are cold and you don't want to take off your jacket and you will instantaneously be like that was the best extra and a lot of people have mentioned that they're. I'll call you tomorrow when I'm on the river. I'll call you.
Speaker 1:I'll be like Let me know.
Speaker 2:Let me know you were right. I will never buy a pair of waiters without the zipper, due to that reason.
Speaker 1:And you've never had any problem with the zipper leaking or anything.
Speaker 2:That's what everyone worries about those zippers. The reason that any dry bag with a zipper costs so much more than a dry bag with just the roll down thing it's usually exactly like a hundred, a hundred and fifty dollars more is because that zipper costs the company about seventy five dollars, just like a zipper. Yeah, okay, I've never Mind you, I don't wade that deep, so it's not like I'm standing in water, but I have waded slightly that deep and had the water up to my chest, maybe six, seven inches under, or it would start going over, and it didn't leak. I've never taken off my zipper and just had a wet spot down the center of my chest proving to me that it was leaking. Okay, I'm not sure it has happened prior, but I think at the stage that those zippers are at now, I wouldn't stress about it.
Speaker 2:And if it did happen it's a manufactured defect. Yep, a hundred percent. It's not going to. And I have that same zipper. I believe it's the same brand of zipper, because Patagonia and Sims aren't making those zippers, they're buying those zippers. I think that's the same one. Fishpond uses are very similar and then Fishpond bags are always dry. And then, yeah, I think the quality of those zippers that are actually watertight is way past what it was, when that argument could have been something Gotcha.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean, like I said, I've never put them to the test, so, yeah, I'm not sure if I'm going to get it here I will, but yeah, yeah, I just, I pretty much love that thing right there. Dude, it is sweet.
Speaker 2:I love that. I totally positioned it so when I like leaned back, it would be right there.
Speaker 1:I'll turn this around. Now we have three dead Drifters. Logos on the.
Speaker 2:OGO, and this is one that I eventually. Hats are expensive and I'm trying to save money people, so maybe hats will come back. Actually, hats will for sure come back. So if ever you see them, you got to hop on them. But we got two of these patches left because I've sewed them on some separate ones. And then I got one of these patches left just in case I ever need to throw it on a hat. Yep, the OG Brown Trout Patch. And then I got these made up a while ago.
Speaker 2:Oh are those leather? Yeah, these are leather patches. That's hot. I have one on my hat and it's super like this really good leather. It's made by Timber and Finn, which he's out of Montreal, I believe, and I actually just got that real case. Did you see that real case that I posted? I posted it and I just put it on my story. Okay, yeah, he makes like custom real cases for your reels.
Speaker 1:Oh, hell yeah.
Speaker 2:And then two clasps at the front so you can also have your rod in it, oh sweet, and then you can close it over. So, yeah, he printed me these out with a laser engraver, but it did a really good job. I'm gonna get a close up of that.
Speaker 1:Oh, hell yeah.
Speaker 2:I got a stack of these and eventually, when money is not tight, I will for sure put these all on hats. The only thing about these ones I have to sew them on myself, which I'm actually very good at sewing. Shout out Army Kits. They taught me some shit. I can read a map. I got some skills, though, but yeah, so these ones. If someone messaged me and was like, hey, man, I really want one of those patches, I would definitely sell them for sure. But yeah, they're just sitting here, I'm just waiting for the right time. I know I made I didn't actually make money on the hats. I basically broke, even if we count the design, how much it costs for the design and how much it costs for everything. So it wasn't, like you know, not in the green off of the hats, but it was something that I obviously love.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we're wearing the hat, and obviously I feel like I've had people ask me about it, like while I was working and stuff. They'd be like you know what is that and I'll explain it so yeah, it's one of those things.
Speaker 2:when I did place those orders I was just a little bit better in the green and then, obviously, when I sold them, I got the money back. But yeah, I paid off my truck. So, yeah, get here to come soon. And I've been working hard and trying to save the shillings. You know you got to save up the shillings. Yeah, the nest egg now it's not massive, but it's there.
Speaker 1:So I really like those winter months always cut into that nest egg and then you're just like, all right, summer's coming overtime has come in, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I went it was get back from Cranbrook, and then was working a bit and then went on my honeymoon and then got back and it was basically my son's birthday and then it was Christmas and I haven't even fully recovered from that. Like that's some haunting shit, that just happened. So I was like, babe, this year we are not going anywhere, You're just conquering down, we're going both just keep grinding. And you know, I got the truck paid off. I'm happy the truck didn't blow up yet, I'm really happy, but it's coming. It's going to blow up on me one day and I'm going to need those shillings to counter that.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, I mean usually it's the second you pay it off, then it just like it's like boom when it's got.
Speaker 2:The kilometers are getting up there.
Speaker 1:So what year is it?
Speaker 2:It's 2013 and I bought it with like 170,000 kilometers and then I probably put on. I don't know exactly the number, but it's up at 260. Oh shit, okay, yeah. So I had a five year payment plan or five and a half year payment plan, so I definitely put on quite a bit. I'd done a lot of from Alberta home driving aiming. I did it like six times in a season or four times in a season, something like that. So she's seen road, I've showed her the ways. She's been down in some bushes, she's been hit by another vehicle and repaired and she burns a little oil here and there and I top her off, you know.
Speaker 1:You can't burn oil if you don't have oil.
Speaker 2:Remember oh, I'll try that next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's burning then in January.
Speaker 2:We just think more now about things that haven't happened when, as you grow older, when I was younger and I was buying all this fishing shit careless, you know, oh yeah, buy this $500 reel with a $500 rod, with $150 line and all the materials to go with it, yep. And now I'm like how much is that? You know, I go to haircut today, me and my son and then I was like how much will that be? And the lady said $70 and I was like and then when we left I looked at my wife and I was like we're going to the other place next time. It's $20 haircut and it's $15 for his haircut, and I leave the guy a nice little tip and he's happy and I'm happy and the fish don't care and it's under my hat the whole time. Anyways, what the heck was that $70? And she was like well, I pay this much for my haircut. And I'm like, yeah, no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like yeah.
Speaker 2:I could fly tying materials I could buy with that kind of money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the men's haircut versus, like, women's haircuts is just stupid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we would still probably be with them if they didn't get that expensive haircut. I mean, for that pathetic of beings, I will. You said me Like We'll dim the lights. Yeah, I don't know, it is crazy and I mean, whatever, whatever floats your boat on, it was. I was like, oh, they're not getting my business, no more, but watch, by the time we go back, we'll go to the same place, because it had been long enough. I'd forgotten this whole conversation. Yeah, process, but he has a mullet. It's super gangster, it's so nice. I love it. Oh, yes, I love it.
Speaker 2:You know I'm gonna start playing hockey Back business in the front. You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Is he gonna start playing hockey?
Speaker 2:La Crosse probably.
Speaker 1:You know what? It still flows. It still flows.
Speaker 2:And probably rugby. So, oh, okay, all right, we're still, we're there's contact.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what if he doesn't have time? We might be out fishing every weekend. That's my goal.
Speaker 1:You know what the river still works.
Speaker 2:Mollets on the river still work, you know, and he's young enough that it doesn't like nobody would be like oh, that's not. You know, he's prime time to have a mullet and they're fashionable currently. By the time they're not fashionable, he'll probably have a sense of he wants to get a haircut different. Yeah, so we've got in his ball court. So while I'm paying the bills, and the wife wants it, that's what it is.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, kids' Haircuts too. It's like I don't know. I see kids with like super clean cuts and they look good, not knocking that, but it's like, dude, get them in some mud. You know, these five-hundreds old, let them roll around in that mud. Go touch some grass. Go touch some grass. Yeah, get them out, get them out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sports will definitely be a thing for them. I wasn't, you know. Shout out to my mom. She's a beautiful person, but we didn't have the money to put him or put me through a ton of sports. And I know there are some programs and obviously I did play some sports, but, yeah, I'd like him to be in some. And Earl this, she plays lacrosse, so he sees lacrosse, so he wants to play. Oh sweet, yeah. And then, like there's a bit of a long line in my white family of kids playing lacrosse, so oh, okay, probably in his blood. Yeah, yeah, sounds he's whacked me with some shit. He's got a good whack. Yeah, yeah, but no, it's good man, I, yeah, in fact we're rambling now. Yeah, there's already the rambling fly podcast, so I can't call myself that, but that's what we're doing, I guess. Yeah, yeah, it's getting on. I'm talking to you, man. Yeah, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:We always have a good chat when we get on, so yeah, the progression of the conversation always winds its way through, so yeah, especially when it's like someone I've had on multiple times, actually, no, pretty much always gets a little more rambly by the end of it. Well, you cover all the fishing shit and then life stuff comes up. Yeah, but on the end note, I guess, is that, yeah, my brain's not working as good as it could. What is your? Because you asked me what my summer season's looking like. So I guess I should end on what's your summer season looking like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we do monthly sampling for juvenile salmon presence and absence. This tidal river flat here outside of Northern Anchorage, a lot of minotrapping for Coho and Chinook and we get rainbow in there too. We occasionally get sockeye, a bunch of dollyvard and stuff like that and then got a couple of trainings coming up and then June it really turns on pretty hot. There'll be I'll do like an eight day remote float down a river in kind of Eastern Alaska ish, the Gulkana River. It'll be an eight day float from a lake down to like the main stem takeout, doing some temperature logging of the water and then, just so happens, there'll be really good fishing along it. Whoops, what a shame. And then we'll do some tagging of kings. We'll throw temperature loggers in their esophagus and we'll track them with like radio trackers throughout the entire summer and then collect them.
Speaker 1:So there'll be a bunch of three, four day floats all throughout the summer, a bunch of days that fish, we're tagging those salmon and then, yeah, just a lot of time on the water. A lot of canoe floats, a lot of you know, rain or shine floats down the river. There's like between 60 and 75 miles each float with a whole bunch of sampling gear. We'll trap minnows along the. We'll take minnows trapped along the way and trap salmon smelt as well, again to see, like, what parts of the rivers they're using to, you know, grow and seek refuge, and all that. Take temperature data all along the way. A lot of the stuff that what's Xena was talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was just going to mention her, ask you if you do the electrode stuff.
Speaker 1:So so our projects don't require the electrofishing. I've done a lot of electrofishing for previous jobs and my master's work did electrofishing as well, but for the projects that we're working on, the questions that we're asking don't require electrofishing. It's a lot of passive. There's a few times Zip, zip, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Understood.
Speaker 1:It's a lot more passive trapping that we do. The King salmon, where we're doing work, are like they're hurt and real bad, so we don't want to take any chances in hurting them at all. Electrofishing is a non lethal sampling technique. That being said, it still has the potential to be lethal, just like everything. Really, you could have lethal middle trapping if you do it improperly too. But yeah, a lot of telemetry work, tracking those tags that we put in the Kings, a lot of river floats with doing all sorts of temperature and middle trapping and telemetry and all that stuff. So I'll be on the water every single week in some aspect and yeah, it'll be a good time. So take a fishing rod with me every time. Oops, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, there it is. Yeah, Tough life for you. Oh, it's horrible. It's horrible pain or shine Shit right. So, yeah, no, that's cool man, it's you know, and having a passion for angling, all that stuff is good knowledge. But then also you can add into helping the systems and at least learn what's, learn some shit about them, and hopefully so yeah, so yeah, hopefully what we do will help inform managers to change regulations or do something to help the populations along.
Speaker 1:So yeah, fingers crossed.
Speaker 2:Fingers crossed, man. Well, you're doing the Lord's work out there. I love it.
Speaker 1:It ain't much, but it's honest work, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly yeah, and you can't. You know a bad day out there. You're sitting on a river.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean like so we get a little wet, but still not behind a desk looking at a computer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but to those who do that, shout out to you guys, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean then, come the fall time, it'll be all data entry and then I will be looking at the computer. But yeah, so for a good couple of months it'll be outside almost 24 seven. So yeah that's good.
Speaker 2:That's good man. Well, yeah, we'll wrap it up there. Yeah, mitch, it's been a pleasure and always great talking to you. Keep that line tight and I'll see you. See you on there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, till next time and yeah, have a good season on the water.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll leave my intro there as my brain just gave out. But much love, buddy. You have a good season and I'm sure we'll talk before before next time we're happy back on.
Speaker 1:Awesome Highlines brother.
Speaker 2:Safe Cheers.