Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Feminist Turned Homemaker with Naomi Smith
Naomi Smith was a modern feminist who, following the lead of feminists like Betty Friedan, thought a woman’s value came from the workplace and from being like a man. After having her first child, however, Naomi realized that modern feminism erased the importance and beauty of motherhood and the God-designed differences between men and women.
The narrative with the modern feminist movement put me on a crusade to prove myself out in the world. And the greatest blessing for me was to lay down that crusade and to pick up the spade and begin to attend this garden here locally in obscurity, but it put me in touch with the way of the Lord, in a way that I had I didn't know before.
Luke:Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. As Christians, our mission is to spread the Gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to transform the nations, to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission. And today, Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as you rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations, and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott:Welcome to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. And my name is Scott Allen. I'm the president of the DNA. I am joined today by coworkers, Darrow Miller, Dwight Vogt, Luke Allen and our guest. Today we have a special guest, Naomi Smith. Naomi, it's great to have you, good to see you.
Naomi Smith:Thanks for having me.
Scott:Joining us from Wichita. How's the weather in Wichita today?
Naomi Smith:Foggy.
Scott:Oh, no kidding. It's never foggy in Phoenix, but it is today. Yeah, that's funny. Well, it's great to have you, Naomi. We're gonna be talking with Naomi today about her own personal journey. She's got a really fascinating story of just how she went from kind of being a modern feminist to becoming what we call an eternal feminist. And we wanted to hear a little bit about that journey Naomi, from your perspective. Let me just introduce you briefly to to our audience. Naomi Smith grew up in St. Louis. And she comes from a family of artists. And I wouldn't mind hearing a little bit more about that. But graduated from high school and went to the University of Kansas, and majored in dance. So she's an artist as well. Became a Christian there her senior year and that upset the trajectory of her life, and began a reformation in terms of her own thinking and her worldview. She went into campus ministry a year later, and worked there, at the same campus, is that right Naomi? University of Kansas?
Naomi Smith:Yeah.
Scott:Yeah, that's great. That's a major school. And you did that for 10 years. And then when she was 32, she married Austin, another friend of ours. And they moved to Kansas City and planted a campus ministry at the University of Missouri in Kansas City. So you've had quite a background in student ministry.
Naomi Smith:Yeah.
Scott:And then from that point, family began to blossom here. You had your first child, Judah, and you talk about your transition into motherhood and how that was a bit challenging and brought up some unresolved questions and some kind of crisis of significance in terms of being involved in ministry in the university with students to being pretty much at home with young kids. So we'll talk about that a little bit more today. Naomi, Austin and Elma currently live in Wichita, they have three children Judah, Theodora, and Ezer.
Naomi Smith:Ezer, that's how you pronounce it.
Scott:Forgive me for for mispronouncing that.
Naomi Smith:Like ezer kenegdo.
Scott:Like what?
Naomi Smith:Like the Hebrew word ezer kenegdo.
Scott:Very good. Yeah. Well, great to have you with us, Naomi.
Naomi Smith:Thanks for having me.
Scott:Anything else that you want to share in terms of just what I've shared there in terms of your bio, any other kind of important points that we need to build on as we get into our discussion today?
Naomi Smith:I think that I've just been on this journey of trying to discover what it means to be a woman and what it means to be a mother and a wife and follow God in that journey, and so I started writing, and I wrote a book called Home Inspired. And it's just sort of a chronicle of my journey. Discovering that there's actually a lot of beauty in the obscure place of raising children and being a homemaker, and I didn't know that when I started.
Darrow Miller:Well, that would maybe be the place to begin, Naomi. I think we met when I was back at your church, lecturing. I don't know how many years ago that was, do you remember?
Naomi Smith:It was about seven and a half years ago.
Darrow Miller:Okay. And I think I was staying in a house that you and Austin were staying in. And that's where we met for the first time. But maybe you can tell us in terms of your story, where were you at that moment in your life? What were you thinking? What was your ambition, as it were? What were you seeing success in life looking like, at that moment, when we met?
Naomi Smith:Well, at that moment, I was very confused. To give you a little background, I grew up with a narrative that basically, in order to fulfill my destiny, I kind of needed to be all that I could be in the workforce. And so to be honest, I felt very empowered, and very believed-in by my folks. And so I just had this ambition, like, I'm going to make something of my life I can do something great, I can change the world. And I became a Christian later in life, like you said, Scott, and went into ministry not long after that. And I think I just transferred all of my ambition, and my need to achieve over into a Christian version of it. And so I wanted to be in all the important meetings, and I kind of fought for women to have a voice, which is not all bad. I'm not saying it is, but there was a selfish ambition that was coming from a school of thought about my value as a woman that I was completely unaware of. I really wanted to be married.
Darrow Miller:Can you describe that school of thought now? Can you go back? What was that school of thought that you had absorbed?
Naomi Smith:Sure. Well Darrow, you've taught me a lot about the different schools of thought with feminism. And so I would say I was definitely raised in a modern feminist home. And looking at the roots of the modern feminist movement, it came really from the hippie rebellion movement in the 60s, and then there was a woman named Betty Friedan who wrote a book called The Feminist Mystique, is that correct? And she kind of described this idea of being a homemaker and a nurturer as like a comfortable concentration camp for women. And it really took hold. And in that time, I think women really just felt like, I need to be like a man, I need to prove that I can do everything a man can do. And, of course, there was Roe versus Wade in the early 70s. That kind of could, in some ways canceled the idea that women had to be pregnant, or had to bear this, quote,"burden" of being pregnant. And so there were a lot of things that were being put in place for women to basically be able to deny their distinction as women and to set their ambitions on doing everything that they saw men doing. So, when a woman would tell me, when I was in campus ministry, when a woman would tell me I just want to be a stay at home mom when I get out of college, I would think in my head, man, we've lost another one. I mean, I would think she is she's reduced herself in her vision and her ambition. Like, we could have her out there, but she doesn't want to do that. She just wants to be comfortable little homemaker. And there was a disdain for that work, no vision for it in my life.
Darrow Miller:And that's where you were when you came to Christ.
Naomi Smith:Exactly.
Darrow Miller:So did coming to Christ become an overlay? How did you bring that feminist understanding that you grew up with and we're embracing? Now you've come to Christ, how did you hold those two things together at that point?
Naomi Smith:I mean, there was a whole process. I appreciated my leaders at the time really helping me to wrestle through a lot of things. I think I wanted to be as high up in the ministry as I could, there was that kind of ambition there. And they didn't say that that was completely wrong, but I remember being in a meeting a staff meeting one time with these senior leaders. And I was so frustrated at them, because they were saying that men are called to be elders, and I just hated that. I wanted to throw them out the window. And I said, I should have just been a man, I should have just been a man, I'm just too ambitious. I should have been a man. And he handled it so well. My leader said, Okay, wait, Naomi, it's hard enough for me to be a man. Like, I'm a man, and it's hard. This idea that you should be a man is a futile pursuit. And you're a woman, and that's glorious. Find out what that means. That's what he said. So there was a lot of tension, I would say, as I had these conversations, and yet my heart was to follow the Lord. And so I rammed myself into a wall about 20 million times in that process.
Darrow Miller:So you really wanted to serve the Lord, you are a modern feminist who's come to Christ, so you have a relationship with Christ. And you want to serve the Lord. And what that means is to go as far as you can in ministry, and maybe be at the top, maybe being the leader of a ministry, and then you will have arrived.
Naomi Smith:Yes, I really missed it, didn't I? I mean, what about the greatest of all is a servant of all, I kind of missed that one. But I'm so grateful that he worked with me in the process.
Darrow Miller:So then what happened? I know when I was there, I was probably lecturing on worldview. And probably, if I'm correct in my memory, taught on the maternal heart of God, I'm not sure. And that seemed to throw you into a crisis. Tell us about that.
Naomi Smith:I was already in the crisis, because I had gotten married, which was fine. Austin and I were on a mission together. That was great. But then I had Judah, our first child, and I think had Judah had a smoother transition into this world, I would have just tucked him under my little my arm like a football and ran out into the fray with him. But instead, he stopped breathing when he was 12 hours old. And all of this chaos ensued for me, in my beginning weeks as a mother. And so after he came home from the NICU, and he was okay. I knew instinctively that he needed me, and I knew that he needed not just my milk, but he needed me. And I was resentful about that, honestly. And yet, I was stuck between a rock and a hard place, because I had prayed for this child, I wanted this child. And so I had to be there, I had to stay there. And I had to figure out is there anything here for me in this place? And I met you, Darrow, when Judah was about nine months old. So we walked into that ministry house after a rough car ride. And I just started talking to you, and I started sharing with you just these seeds of things that God had begun to show me. And you nurtured those and water them, and that was just so powerful for me.
Darrow Miller:We'll unpack that a bit. You're between a rock and a hard place. You prayed for this child when he was in your womb, but you thought, okay, when he's born, I'm going to tuck them under my arm and go back out into the world and do my thing, right? Because.....
Naomi Smith:That's where my significance is.
Darrow Miller:That's where significance is. And then Judah gets sick, and now you're praying for his restoration of health. And you begin to wonder, how do I do this now? He needs me. And how does that relate to,"I'm gonna go out and change the world." So describe that some more.
Naomi Smith:Yeah, I think for anyone who's just had a baby, that process of getting them on their feet is slow. And it's certainly not without activity, but it's slower kind of pace of life. It's like, tending a little tender shoot. And so, to be honest, at one point, I was just like, I'm just going to sit on this couch, and I'm going to learn how to nurse him. Like for a week, that's what I did. And meanwhile, my mind is swirling with what has happened to me, I've become an indentured servant. This is my life now, I didn't know that this was what I was signing up for when I had a kid. And a lot of it came down to some of that modern feminist thinking, which is like a complete denial of my creative design, which the grand design does a great job of, it's a little plug for you. But it does a great job of explaining. But I was completely divorced from the fact that I was the one who was going to best nurture this child. That just sounds so odd to me at this point in my life. But when I transitioned into motherhood, it was like news to me, that I was gonna have to slow down and settle in and feed him and be with him. That was just news to me. I didn't know that.
Darrow Miller:And it wasn't just breastfeeding him. It wasn't just feeding him. There was a whole other concept that was dawning on you, and that was the concept of being there.
Naomi Smith:Exactly.
Darrow Miller:And that wasn't in your grid.
Naomi Smith:No, not at all. And so I was bored a lot. And I had this war going on in my mind, about what have I become? And what is to become of me? Do I want to do this ever again? And maybe when he's three, I can send them off to someone else and go be in important meetings again. But I think I was detoxing from affirmation addiction. And I was settling in slowly to this place of obscurity. And my ministry at the time, back when I was single, we had had a pretty incredible time of realizing that the gospel had ramifications for impacting all of society. And we actually had the revelation that we were called to disciple nations in our ministry. And so we were asking questions like, this was back in the day, it was super exciting. It was like, what would it look like for the kingdom of God to come in the arts or to come in the economy or to come in the government? And we were just asking these wonderful questions. And it was so exciting and expansive. And then I landed at home. And I thought my life was over as I knew it, and it was, kind of, but I had this kind of really mundane moment, that turned into a huge pivot point for me. And I just remember, I was exhausted, I flopped back on my bed. And I was thinking about all the things I had to do. And I was thinking about how these blankets needed to be folded up, and move through the system to put be put in Judah's dresser, and I just had this thought, oh, that word system rings a bell. It reminds me of all those conversations I had about systems and institutions and how the Kingdom is to impact and salt those institutions and systems. And I just thought, wait a minute now, I think maybe the home is actually has these systems and institutions in a micro form. And that was gold for me. That was huge. Because then I started realizing like, wait a minute, I could actually disciple this nation. And my husband, of course, but I can't decide alone, who becomes president or Senator of my state, but I have creative power to disciple this nation. And that set my mind on fire. I'll tell you, it was exciting. And it reframed everything for me. It changed everything.
Darrow Miller:You said something a minute ago, you used a phrase that I've never heard before. I've heard it said differently by our friend Anna Santos. And I believe you know Anna.
Naomi Smith:Yeah
Darrow Miller:And her heart has been called to the invisible people. The people that no one wants to see. And you just use the phrase the place of obscurity, the place is an obscure place that people don't think is important. So, you were trapped in this place of obscurity. And now you have this profound revelation.
Scott:Yeah. Naomi, when you had that revelation, what changed for you, what began to change? And then did you have Christians in your life that that helped you with that, reinforced that? Or were you bucking up against?
Naomi Smith:The famous Darrow Miller.
Scott:Yeah. I'm so thankful God used Darrow at that point in your life. Explain a little bit about that. So that seed got planted that this is a ministry area here that I hadn't even thought of. And this is where I begin to disciple the nation, is here in the home, and that, like you said, lit your mind on fire, what happened from there, and how to Darrow influence you and your thinking on that?
Naomi Smith:Well, it was really just the seed of an idea at that point, when I met Darrow, and I remember sharing that with him, that I had come to understand that the home was just a micro nation. And he said, Who taught you that? Who showed you that? And I was like, I think God! And he began to flesh that out and ask really good questions that helped me to pursue it more to see how seminal that revelation was, how important that was. I think for me, it's like, I grew up with the modern feminists kind of disdain for homemaker, housewife, stay at home mom, those phrases were like, ew, ew. But micro-nation discipler, that's like kind of a fresh way of describing it. And it dignified, for me, personally, in my own heart, it dignified the work. And it also gave me a drive, like, what if meal after meal and conversation after conversation and book after book, I could build something beautiful here? What if I could build, what if I could weave a tapestry that would bring glory to God for the generations? What if I could do that? And so it just brought significance to this place of obscurity.
Dwight:So you were the Prime Minister, the Treasurer, the Minister of Agriculture,
Naomi Smith:The Doctor, the Trash Collector?
Dwight:The Health Department?
Naomi Smith:Yeah.
Dwight:So what would you call it today, this place of obscurity? Because you don't see it like that anymore. It's still the same building. You still are a mother and a woman and you have these children. But you don't see it the same way anymore. So what is this place that you are living in?
Naomi Smith:Yeah, I've thought about this a little bit like that. There's places where I am totally replaceable. Like in a ministry context, I'm replaceable, someone else can do that work. But being these children's Mom, I am being Austin's wife, I am irreplaceable. This place of obscurity that I find myself in is of utmost value to the world around me, these children and Austin. But it expands out to our community and to our neighborhood. And so I think I really missed the boat when I was in my radical feminist mindset, because the Kingdom comes from the bottom up, and the inside out. And so it was this gorgeous place of thriving, of being fruitful and have truly bearing fruit and fruit that hopefully remains, as opposed to maybe getting pats on the back and awards and feeling great about myself. But I'll tell you, it's involved a serious death, I mean, me dying. But that's what it says, right? Unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it will not bear fruit, and I needed to die. In the best way possible, I needed to die.
Darrow Miller:So what I'm hearing is that modern feminism, the culture of modern feminism, that was inside of you had to die. For this new space to become to be created.
Naomi Smith:I think that's fair.
Darrow Miller:I'm interested in this, and I want to pursue it a little further. I have no idea where it's going to go. And I don't know if you've thought about it. We have a good friend named Jenny Park, and she's been on the podcast. And Jenny is a concert pianist that did the concert for the book launch. Did you hear? Did you hear any of that?
Naomi Smith:Yes. She's amazing.
Darrow Miller:She's amazing. And when we were sitting here in this room, looking at the screen like we're looking at you, and there was Jenny Parks. And she told us her story about music and how she got to where she was. And then she used a phrase: walking in music, and it was a space. And she would sit down at the piano to begin to play, the picture she created was moving from the physical space where she's in her body sitting at a piano, with her fingers playing the keys, producing this beautiful music. That's not where she was. She was walking in this space of music. And it went, bam! I can't say I've ever walked in that space, because I'm not a musician. But with that phrase, she captured something that for me was astonishing. It's the transcendent part of the music. And you've been describing as a modern feminist, the place where you are, is a place of security. But now you are seeing the same physical place as a totally different space. Tell us more about that.
Naomi Smith:Yeah, I think that having vision for me, having a vision for the significance, and what is actually happening in this space of the home has made all the difference. And so I have so appreciated your commission to disciple on the level of culture. And I have become my own artist, I employed my creativity, and my skill to disciple this nation. I have an email list that I send people, and I wrote a piece called "Stay At Home Sniper." And it was about these conversations that I'm looking for, with my four year old. When we're at Costco, and we see someone she says,"Mommy, is that a man or woman?" And I'm looking to harness those conversations, and use them for God's glory. And so, I tell her, that's a bigger conversation we need to talk about in the car. So I get in the car, and I tell her, "Mommy, mommy has told you before, but who decides, whether you're a boy or girl?" And she says, "God," and I say, "And that's glorious, that you're a girl." And she says, "Yeah," and I say, "Some people, they're very confused. They think that they can choose whether they're a boy or girl. And that's actually a rebellion against God's designed for them. But we can love them, and we can pray for them. But that is sin, that they would choose to go against the way that God has gloriously designed them." And so I'm looking, I'm sniping, I'm looking for these moments, where I can harness the the craziness of this world and help her to see that we have a holistic worldview. That is glorious and beautiful. There was another conversation and I mean, I don't shy away from the the intense ones. She's a little warrior too. She's kind of a Princess warrior. So there was this whole abortion conversation in Kansas, I don't know if you guys heard about this.
Scott:We were talking about this this morning actually Naomi.
Naomi Smith:So after Roe versus Wade, the Supreme Court ruling, then Kansas flared up because there was this bill, or an amendment that they had put on the docket called "Value Them Both." And it was basically to take away the precedent that the Supreme Court had that abortion was a constitutional right. And so there's all these signs everywhere and she's learning how to read. And and so she's asking me, "Mommy, what does that mean? Like, trust women, vote no, for amendment?" I mean, she's asking me these questions. And so we're having these conversations about how some people believe that they want to have the choice to kill their babies and their wombs. And she's like, "What?" I mean, that's just insane to her. And yet, it's so awesome to take that opportunity and say, If you believe that we are just quirks of evolutionary fate, then that is in-line with a certain line of thinking, if you just believe that people don't really have that much value, or just evolved, then it makes only makes sense that sometimes babies would be a nuisance. But we believe that life is always valuable. And so I'm constantly discipling on the level of worldview. And it's an art, and it's a practice, and it's a space.
Scott:But like Darrow was saying, Naomi, the fact that you're doing all of this, and every one of those conversations that you're having, I just think of the impact that they can have for the long term in the life of your children. The fact that you're aware, and you're thinking, oh, this is an opportunity to have a really important conversation. None of that would have come if you were still back in the, in the earlier mindset.
Naomi Smith:So true.
Scott:Yeah, and I think, in God's economy, it's like, you can't begin to kind of measure the impact that that's going to have, it's one of these things where at the time, maybe it doesn't seem like a big deal.
Darrow Miller:What was the phrase you use, the sniper?
Naomi Smith:Stay at home sniper.
Darrow Miller:Stay at home sniper.
Scott:I'm gonna snipe. Yeah, those are very creative ideas.
Darrow Miller:I want to reinforce that. We say all the time, if you want to change a culture, you need to change the language. And we're seeing that in spades today, in a negative way. But you have talked about the family is the smallest nation, you've talked about the stay at home sniper. And I just love this because you are creating phrases that are powerful phrases, to open people's eyes to see something that they've not seen before. And I just encourage you, write your articles about this and maybe 20 years from now, more people will talk about the stay at home sniper. And it will be that idea that's out there that people can, I was looking for words to describe this. And Naomi gave me that phrase. And so it's just wonderful to hear these phrases that God has given you, and how powerful they are, and how they can create spaces in people's minds where it's a new space that wasn't there before.
Dwight:I have a question for you, Naomi, what do your friends think of you? Do you influence friends? I know you started some groups and you wrote your book, you must have a vision for influencing other women.
Naomi Smith:Yeah.
Dwight:How's that going?
Naomi Smith:I think it's going well. I've kind of pulled away more from trying to have a presence on like social media and things like that, and I've gotten way more local. I sort of see myself as a tender of different communities that we are a part of, and I'm always looking for new connections and friendships and quality conversations. I had this conversation about the difference between modern feminism and maternal feminism with a new friend that I met at the playground.
Dwight:It's an interesting playground conversation by the way.
Naomi Smith:if you roll with me, this is how it's gonna go.
Dwight:They probably roll their eyes with you. Who knows?
Naomi Smith:Well, yeah, I have to find the right ones. I like to find people who are thinking, people are asking questions, and just spend time with them, have them over. And Austin and I are really passionate about hospitality. And so we love the lbry model. And we kind of love that idea of the hospitality of ideas, allowing people to just come ask their questions. And so we do that a lot. And that's something that we do together. So, I like my friends, I've got some great friends.
Scott:Naomi, on that, would you say that you are in a supportive community where people are kind of in the same place that you are on these ideas? Because I know in evangelicalism, this is a big divide, right? There's a real serious divide, you've got a whole group of people that I would say have taken the modern feminist idea, and all that it means to be a woman in a very kind of critical way, especially related to being at home, raising children, etc. And they've kind of, how can I say it? They've Christianized it, there's a Christian veneer on it, but it's more or less modern feminism. Talk about your friends, your community. Do you run up against that? What's your interaction with that?
Naomi Smith:My church community is very supportive of being a stay at home mom, I remember, my pastor who died of COVID, a couple years ago, but he was an incredible guy, and I had Judah with me in a meeting, we were going to these meetings with him. And I just had this narrative in my mind, like, I gotta get out there, I gotta get out there. Like, I gotta get out to the campus, I gotta start discipling people, and all this kind of striving. And I just remember him saying to me, who's saying that to you? Who is saying that to you? What voice is saying that to you? And he said, your job is to listen for the voice of the Holy Spirit, and to obey. And that really helped me because it helped alleviate this, like strive-y, in some ways, religious pressure, like all my significance comes from getting out there on campus, making disciples. So I would say that they are really supportive of the stay at home journey. I have friends who are not stay at home moms, I have friends who are, I really try to meet them where they are. And I think that in general Austin and I try to build our community, and lead our community, in these things that we've discovered. So we're sort of having organic influence. By nature, we just want to disciple people, so we're kind of just salting the conversations with these ideas and trying to ask good questions and love people well.
Scott:Where was Austin at on this subject when you guys got married? Because your story is so similar to Kim and I's?
Naomi Smith:Oh, really?
Scott:Oh, very similar. And I was a modern feminist in my own thinking, and Kim took the lead in our relationship. She had that conversion that you spoke about before I did. Where was Austin at? Did he have that same basic aha! That you had? Or was he already there? What was his story?
Naomi Smith:full time while he was little, so I don't know that he had a ton of vision for a mom being home. And he certainly never told me that I had to be home or something like that. But when we got married. He said, "I am going to work full time. I'm not going to be a stay at home dad. So we're going to have to work this out if we want to have kids, it's going to be on you to figure out how we're going to nurture them on a day to day level." And so, what I appreciate about him was that I think there's something inherited when you see a mother at home, there's almost like an example and a model and an imprinting that happens, of what it looks like maybe to be a nurturer. And I didn't really have that, I didn't have that growing up. And so I think while I was in the throes of figuring all of this out, he was just extremely supportive. And he would just tell me, like, you're a good mom, Naomi, you're a good mom. And I'm like, I am not a good mom. I'm a horrible mom. I mean, I'm angry all the time. But he just spoke words of life over me as I transitioned, as I went through the cocoon, and came out the other side. So I so appreciate the space that he gave me to do that. And it's been good. It's been just right. It's been really good for us and for our family. It's awesome.
Darrow Miller:I just want to reflect on something you just said. You said you didn't have the model of nurturing, growing up. So now you are a mother. But you don't know what nurture looks like, because you didn't have the model.
Naomi Smith:Right.
Darrow Miller:And yet, at the same time, your nature was to nurture, you were made to nurture. But you need to see it, you need to have it modeled, in order to understand what your own nature is.
Naomi Smith:Yeah.
Darrow Miller:Which shows the power of culture to either model the nature, or to unmodel the nature in a way that I can't do this.
Naomi Smith:Right.
Darrow Miller:So now, you've learned this, and you are modeling for other people, your peers and younger generation who, oh, this is what it looks like.
Naomi Smith:Yeah.
Darrow Miller:So you need to have a culture that your body was made to nurture.
Naomi Smith:Exactly.
Darrow Miller:You need a culture that affirms that, and then you need models of people who are doing it.
Naomi Smith:Yep.
Darrow Miller:So it can become more natural in the future for larger number of people.
Naomi Smith:It's like all these families that, they're generations of women who don't have men in the family. And then maybe I have a friend who really gave her life to the Lord and got married. And so now it's a man and a woman in the family. And she's like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to do this. And I don't know how to relate to a man in a marital relationship. That's healthy. I don't know. So we've lost all this equity in the family, there's a lot of rubble that we've got to clear away. We've lost a lot of equity.
Darrow Miller:Yeah. The equity, or the capital. That is so
Scott:That's so true. important for not only this generation, but the next generation. Yeah, I so relate to that. I feel like anything related to marriage, family, nurturing of children, education, has really gone through a destructive process over the last 100 years. And so, it's ruins and it really does require a fresh vision to rebuild. I kind of think of the exiles, when they came back to Jerusalem and that everything was torn down, and they had to start from scratch. And I feel that way a little bit. And it's hard. It's hard to do that. Because it's much easier when you just are picking things up Darrow, as you said, from a culture that supports it and models and examples and it's all built up around you. But now it's not, you have to really be countercultural. You have to kind of do things from scratch in a sense, and that's what I hear you doing Naomi.
Naomi Smith:Yeah, I was just reading in Ezra today, about how they rebuilt the altar. And after they rebuilt the altar from the ruins, the older people cried, and the younger people rejoiced. Because it's a both/and! Like, thank you, God, that there's an altar finally. And yet, look how far this thing has been destroyed. And I think I have to hold on to the, yay, look how far it's come, because I'm raising these children, and I gotta have some hope.
Scott:Naomi, when I think about, if we're going to see things turn around, there's certain things that have to happen. Number one, we need revival, we need the movement of the Holy Spirit in people's hearts, a sense of conviction of sins, repentance. But we need a turnaround in all of this brokenness in our families and marriages, and in sexuality and education, that whole area has to be reformed. And that doesn't happen apart from people making individual decisions, just like you're doing, these are not big decisions in the scheme of things. But this is how it happens: One at a time. And so anyways, I just want to give you just praise and encouragement for what you've done, take that step. So thank you.
Luke:Yeah, I know for myself, my wife and I are expecting right now, Naomi. And we're super excited. But I've noticed these lies in culture that have at this point, just dug so deep. And people just say comments, passing comments that reflect these lies in small ways, or large ways. And you notice them every once in awhile. Well, we've definitely noticed them in the last few months. Since we've been expecting this kid. For example, when Sabrina, my wife announces that there's a little kid on the way, some people don't know how to respond, because nowadays, is it congratulations, or is that I'm sorry, that you had that unplanned accident, and she had that happened with a coworker recently, where they just gave no response. Because she could tell they just didn't know what to say. What were you gonna say Dad?
Scott:There's a whole school of thought nowadays that having kids is a selfish thing. It's very bad.
Luke:And there's that, yep.
Scott:Right. These are destructive on the environment, or whatever it is.
Luke: Yeah, or another one:A lot of people when we announced that, one of their first responses is, what are you going to do for work now, you were just getting started in your career, and she has a great career right now and so forth. And it's this kind of, Oh, I'm sorry, that this got in the way of that. And I found that very hurtful as well. But this is feminism that's been discipled through the culture. And I know for her, and myself and a lot of other young people, we've just been discipled in this our whole lives, through our schools, and our friends, and sometimes even our churches. And at some point, we need to challenge that. And sometimes it can just take a question, is there something that you would say to young people who have like you were, just slowly gone through this process? And it what would that question or statement be, that maybe could spark that curiosity or challenge that worldview that they've been living in, passively or actively?
Naomi Smith:I think if they're believers, there's a lot you can ask, about what does the Bible say about children? And it says they're a blessing. My little girl who's the warrior. She says, Mom, you got three blessings. She refers to herself as a blessing.
Scott:That's right.
Naomi Smith:That's powerful. That's profound. And it's true.
Darrow Miller:Yeah.
Naomi Smith:I think asking them in Genesis 1-2, what is the design of women? I went to Spain, where they recorded The Grand Design. And one of the things that just blew me away was that women were created to be life givers. Like God, God is a life giver, and women were created in his image to give life. And so asking that question, going back with people, and looking at those Scriptures and references, and seeing that this quality of bearing children is actually a reflection of the one, of the God who makes life. And to me, that dignifies this assignment that we've been given or this design. For people who are not believers, I think that there's this huge narrative right now about the environmental narrative, and kind of this idea that people are like a pox on the earth. And I think that I would ask them questions, do you think that humans ever solve problems? Do you think that they actually contribute to this earth? I love Jordan Peterson, because he's like, I'm not so sure that people are such a burden and a pox, like, I'm pretty sure that they actually can create solutions to some of this stuff that we're facing. And so it's not just a given that we should eliminate people from this world or that life giving, or that pregnancy, is this nuisance. I would just ask questions like that.
Darrow Miller:I have my last question at this point. Thinking back in your own life, to where you were a modern feminist and had come to Christ. And now, you are going to go for the gusto in ministry, to change the world, and be at the top of the ministry. That's where you were.
Naomi Smith:Right.
Darrow Miller:Think of all the women out there, the Christian women, who that's where they are. And you are where you are now, but you've been where they are. What would you tell Christian women who are modern feminists? What word would you have for them?
Naomi Smith:I think I would just challenge them to look at what distinguishes them from a man and their creative design. I think I would challenge them to look at Genesis 1-2, and see the broad lines that God gives us and yet he does give us distinctives, about how we are created. And I think I would challenge them about what is the way of the Lord. I was on this mission to be at the top. And if I'm really honest, so much of that was really selfishly driven. And I've listened to Bob Moffitt share about the heart of the of the gospel being sacrificial love. I don't think I really got that at that time. But I'll tell you being at home in this obscure place, I've been tutored in them in a profound way. And all the better for it.
Scott:Naomi, I think, God, he's given you a vision, that ambition I think in some ways is God given, and God uses people that have vision and ambition. And obviously God needs people in all sorts of places, including in places of great influence and great power,
Naomi Smith:Of course.
Scott:So I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But one of the things I see in the Scripture, it's very similar to your your own journey on this is, and I think the Apostle Paul is an example of this. Where he was, as he said, in his own words, a Pharisee of Pharisees. He was at the top of his game, he was the powerful religious leader of his time. And he knew that, he was the most powerful, influential person in that society. When he became a Christian, it was interesting. God used him in that way, in that design, this powerful guy, very ambitious guy. But when he became a Christian, he went to Arabia, talks about this in Galatians, he went to Arabia, and was there for quite a while, and made tents. In other words, he had to kind of die to that, like you were talking about. And he had to learn how to live this simple, quiet life and earn money with his own hands making tents in a way that was obscure, and that didn't seem like it was having any kind of influence. And it was out of that death that God brought him back to Jerusalem. And then the rest of the story is what we know about. And so I hear something very similar in your life where, again, these things aren't bad in and of themselves, but they can become gods. And there has to be kind of a dying to that. So I don't know if you want to comment on that, that's just an observation. But I think it's really important for a lot of our listeners right now, because God makes people in all sorts of different ways.
Naomi Smith:Yeah, totally. And I think that as I went down this road with my podcast of discovering what is quintessential womanhood, I started to realize, like, man, not everybody has my story. Not everybody is going to be married, not everyone's going to have kids, but there are these very much landmark, distinguishers that women have, in the very beginning part of the Bible. And then the lines, in many ways are broad. But I think that the narrative with the modern feminist movement put me on a crusade to prove myself out in the world. And the greatest blessing for me, was to lay down that crusade and to pick up instead of having that narrative, to pick up the spade, and begin to turn this garden here locally, in obscurity, but it put me in touch with the way of the Lord, in a way that I didn't know before, of love, and of service, and of submission, oh, God, forbid that we say that word. But like, all of those things are beautiful, and glorious, and fruitful.
Luke:Yeah, and powerful. Yeah, definitely powerful. I mean, that's what we're talking about in our last podcast actually, is the immense influence that a family has on discipling a nation. Yeah, like you said, it's the micro-nation. But from that micronation you can go out and disciple a whole nation, I just think of how one person in their lifespan can easily have four generations underneath of them. And think about the amount of people that that is, and if all of those were discipled, and snipered in a way, for those moments in which you can disciple them. It's a huge impact in one lifetime.
Naomi Smith:That's so good. And I mean, there's the famous families like William and Catherine Booth of the Salvation Army or the Schaeffers, but then there's the ones that you never hear about, but are just as impactful in salting their culture with the kingdom and strong nations are built on strong families.
Scott:What I love about what you're doing Naomi too is you've got an obvious love for God's word, and you're holding it up and you're using it to critique your own worldview, your former worldview. And so you're thinking worldview-ishly, and it's a practice or a habit, I want all of our listeners to be able to do, to kind of critique, what is it that I've learned? What is it that I've learned about these things? Is it true? Is it what the Bible says? Is it based on the value system of the Bible, the truth of the Bible? So often, we don't do that, we just are so powerfully influenced by the culture, and then our Christianity is quite shallow. And so we go along with the culture, especially in these areas of family and marriage and whatnot. But we've never seen the incredible power and the beauty that the Bible has to say about these things. And so anyways, I love that you do that. That's very clear and from our conversation here.
Naomi Smith:Thank you.
Scott:As we wrap up today, any final questions or thoughts Darrow on your side?
Darrow Miller:I'm thankful, Naomi, for our time. I'm thankful for all the times we've spent together in the past. But let's do it again at some point.
Naomi Smith:For sure.
Darrow Miller:And yeah, this was very, very good. And I hope it creates some space in people's minds where an explosion can take place, and they'll say, "Oh, I've never seen that before." Thank you, Naomi, very much.
Scott:Naomi. Where can people if they listened to this, and they've said, I really want to learn more? Where can they reach you somewhere Naomi? You said, you're not doing much with social media, you've got a book called Home Inspired? Is that available? Can people get that? How can people be in touch with you and learn from you?
Naomi Smith:That's available on Amazon.
Scott:Okay, Home Inspired is the book.
Naomi Smith:And you can go to the website homeinspired.org
Scott:homeinspired.org. Perfect.
Naomi Smith:And I have a podcast as well. It's called the Home Inspired Podcast.
Luke:It is a good podcast too. I recommend.
Scott:Well, we'll definitely link to that and encourage everyone. This is so important, this is the Disciple Nations Alliance. And as I said, you don't disciple nations apart from this, this is the most basic thing here and Naomi's describing it very well. And we all need to learn, we need to learn how to rebuild these ruins, and so great resources here, books, podcast, website. Naomi thanks for making your own learning available to people.
Naomi Smith:Of course.
Scott:Thank you. And we look forward to having you back on again. There's a line of questioning I wanted to get to but I think we'll save that till the next time we get together. I'd love to kind of continue to explore. We talked a lot about modern feminism, but it occurs to me that we are no longer really in a place of modern feminism. Feminism has evolved into a whole new form. Postmodern feminism. And I would love to hear your thoughts on what that looks like and how we as Christians can avoid getting caught up in some of that, but we'll save that. That'll be a little teaser for our next conversation. Thank you, Naomi. Thanks for being with us today.
Naomi Smith:Thank you.
Scott:God bless you guys. Thanks for listening.
Luke:Thank you so much for joining us today on Ideas Have Consequences with our honored guest, Naomi Smith. To learn more about Naomi and her book Home Inspired, or her podcast, blog and website, visit this episode's landing page which is linked below in the show notes. On that page, you can find key quotes from the episode, social media posts ready to be shared, the transcript organized into chapters and more. This podcast is brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance. To learn more about the DNA you can find us on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube or on our website which is disciplenations.org. Thanks again for listening and have a great rest of your day.
