Enneagram Insights for Personal Growth with Janis Milham

Meet Janis Milham, my favorite former boss and this week's guest on Pivotal People. Janis has had a brilliant 30+ year career as a Senior Vice President with Marriott International. She is known for helping people develop in their careers and lives by taking the time to really understand who they are, and helping them understand themselves. Today, as an Executive Coach with  Questage, she continues to help people develop both personally and professionally. In this episode she  shares her insights on the Enneagram's role in helping people become their best selves. 

It's a heartfelt reminder that each of us can benefit from the opportunity for guidance and support. Join us for a dialogue that promises to leave you with lessons on harnessing the power of personality for professional success and personal fulfillment.

Connect with Janis:
https://www.questage.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/janismilham/

Order Stephanie's new book Imagine More: Do What You Love, Discover Your Potential

Learn more at StephanieNelson.com
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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:24

I'd like to welcome Janice Millam to the Pivotal People podcast. She was actually on about a year and a half or two years ago. She is an executive coach with Questage. Actually, she and her husband have a firm that provides leadership consulting for senior executives, c-suite leaders, emerging leaders. They teach high-impact leadership skills. Her background is that she worked for over 30 years at Marriott International pronounced Marriott if you work there, but the rest of the world says Marriott. She excelled in several high-level roles. She eventually ended her career as senior vice president and a global brand leader for seven of Marriott's 30 brands.

Speaker 1: 1:10

So that is Janice Millam on paper, but I'm just going to tell you really fast the reason she's on this podcast is because in all of my years of working, she was my favorite boss and I only worked for her for nine months. And I reflect on that and I think why was she my favorite boss? Because she is just amazingly gifted at connecting with and understanding people. This comes naturally to her, but she has also done quite a bit of training to become an expert. Specifically, today we're going to talk about an expert at advising people on how to use the Enneagram as a tool in both their personal and professional lives. So, janice, welcome.

Speaker 1: 1:50

Thank you so much for being here. It's great to see you, great to see you, and thanks for having me again. Yeah, oh yeah, I hope she's going to be a regular. By the way, folks, I want you to now pull up a chair, because you're going to get half an hour of free coaching and listen. I don't know her rates, but I'm going to tell you that's a really good deal. So thank you for that. Well, tell us a little bit, for let's just pretend no one's ever heard of the Enneagram. Give us a little bit of a background on what it is, and then let's really dig in to all the different types, all right, good.

Speaker 2: 2:21

So the Enneagram is quite an ancient tool. Actually it's been around. Well, we can trace it back to 10,000 years. Actually, we don't know who created it, but the belief is that it was actually. There's a biblical tie because when you look, there are nine Enneagram styles and when you look at the nine styles, each one has a vice or a passion and seven of the nine happen to be the seven deadly sins.

Speaker 2: 2:44

So a lot of people who've heard about the Enneagram have maybe heard about it through their church. In fact, I was doing an Enneagram debrief for a coaching client recently and he said, yeah, I heard about it because my wife and I had to take it as a part of our premarital counseling in the church. So I think that's kind of interesting. But fast forward to today. If you were to Google the Enneagram, you'd see there's all kinds of podcasts, there's all kinds of books. In fact I know you listen to some of the podcasts and there's, frankly, a lot of different assessments out there. The one we use we think is the best and I can speak to that. But it's fascinating to me. It's now just really becoming much more mainstream in corporations, which is where we use it primarily, but it's new to the corporate world primarily, but it's new to the corporate world and it's really stunning to see how amazingly impactful it is with individuals that we coach and with teams.

Speaker 1: 3:34

Well, it's interesting because to me, I only heard about it a few years ago. As you said, it's been around for, you know, 1000s of years, maybe 10,000 years. What do you think started Like? When did it get popular in mainstream culture?

Speaker 2: 3:47

It's a good question.

Speaker 2: 3:48

So my husband, Alan, who you've referenced, my business partner, life partner he and I actually got exposed to it about 25 years ago and it was through a gentleman who was holding a little informational session, frankly, at a courtyard you know, I used to manage courtyards and so we looked into it and back then you had to sort of self-assess, you had to sort of ask some questions and sort of decide what your number was.

Speaker 2: 4:13

Based on this sort of self-assessment. It's come a long ways in the last 25 years where now there are actual tests you can take or assessments you could take online that will then tell you what your Enneagram type is. So I would say, yeah, we heard about it 25 or so years ago, so I would say that's probably when it became sort of a thing and it's gotten more and more popular over time. In fact, I don't know if you listen to Brene Brown at all, but she on her podcast will refer to the fact that she's an Enneagram one. And I've heard other people that are, you know, that are thought leaders and sort of the emotional intelligence space or what have you, that are very aware of it.

Speaker 1: 4:50

Well, it's interesting because, I was told, I had a coach a few years ago as I was writing a book, and he said you need to understand the Enneagram. If you're going to be current, you need to know who you are and you need to let people know that. And even our pastor I remember our pastor let everyone know he was an Enneagram one, and so was his wife. So there you go, that's it. I'll tell you that's a neat house. I'll tell you that I haven't been in it, but it's just my guess. So where does your consulting come in? So when you come in, is it groups or individuals? You come in and you say why should a corporate group be taking the Enneagram?

Speaker 2: 5:27

Yeah, so we use Enneagram? Yeah, so we'll use. We use Enneagram at the center of everything we do. Now we've we've been Alan, my husband is certified in Myers-Briggs and DISC and I've been using StrengthFinders for years as well, as there's lots of different assessments out there, but once we found this one, this is our go-to. And so, specifically to your answer on incorporation so somebody will come to us and say, hey, we've got a, we've got a team that's that's new, or we've got a team that is high performing, but we want them to kind of get to that next level, and so what we'll do then is we will have everybody take the Enneagram.

Speaker 2: 5:59

We'll do a one on one debrief session with each of them prior to our in-person session, our in-person session, and then we do an in-person session and what we do is we actually take a big visual of the Enneagram, have everybody sit around it in their number and share, and they share things like what resonated with you. You know what are the strengths of my Enneagram, what are some of the challenges, what triggers me To understand what triggers your coworkers is pretty powerful. And then we ask them to say you know, now that you know that I'm this Enneagram, how can you support me? How can the team support you, knowing that this is your Enneagram style and basically what that does, stephanie, it just creates a deepening of relationships. And you know, the Enneagram is not really a personality test.

Speaker 2: 6:43

That's a misnomer. It's about your core motivation and the belief is that we come into our core motivation between the ages of seven and 13. I don't know if you've ever thought about that, but I know you're an Enneagram three. So think about what might've been going on in your life between the ages of seven and 13, that would cause you to be an Enneagram three. You don't have to say that here if you don't want to, but once you understand somebody's core motivation, it sort of gives you more. They give each other more grace to understand why their behaviors are thus and so, and it really helps to create a strong bond within teams, helps to build foundation for trust and it's a powerful tool to really get teams to be able to work more powerfully together.

Speaker 1: 7:27

As you're talking, I'm thinking it humanizes us.

Speaker 2: 7:30

For sure there's lots of people that they learn things about people they've worked with for five, six, seven years that they never knew, and it's because we've taken time to slow down and have those conversations I mean, you think about. I was just reading a recent article on emotional intelligence and the importance of emotional intelligence and I hate it when people call it a soft skill because that to me just diminishes the importance. To me it's a critical leadership skill and this article reinforces that. But if you think about it talks about self-awareness being one of the first things to emotional intelligence self-regulation. There's not a better tool I know out there than the enneagram to point to self-awareness and how to better self-regulate, and not only for individual development for them, for the team to develop.

Speaker 1: 8:15

So it's, it's uh, as I said, I'm a big fan well, I am too, because, even though I haven't done a deep coaching and analysis of a debriefing as you refer to, it did help me when I saw, when I read the report of what my type was Enneagram 3, and I saw that it's not the static kind of a thing Like this is who you are and you're set. It's a spectrum, it's evolving. So there are, you know, there's a unhealthy kind of negative end of our assessments and then there's a healthy, positive. So our whole life, if we want to evolve, if we want to grow, if we want to become more self-aware, for me it gives me a framework. Like now I catch myself when I'm being like an ugly version of a three. Okay, stop it, stop it. But I don't know that I would have thought in that way had I not done this. So maybe it would be helpful for folks if you could kind of give us a top line of what are the different assessments, what are the characteristics.

Speaker 2: 9:19

You mean the nine types? Yeah, the nine types. Okay, so before I yes, I'd love to do that and before I do that, what we like to say to your earlier point is understanding the Enneagram. It does not put you in a box, it helps you to get out of your box. Oh, I like that. And that's to your point. That healthy, the healthy side, right, is understanding that this is who we are. But how do we be the best version of ourselves? And that's really the whole point of the Enneagram. So so, yes, I can do a quick run through. So there are nine types, as I said.

Speaker 2: 9:49

So type one is called the strict perfectionist and again, each one has a core motivation. And for the strict perfectionist, their core motivation is the need to be good or to be right. So strict perfectionists are often very organized. They're very high integrity rule followers, very detail oriented, tend to be a little hard on themselves because they want everything to be perfect and when it's not, they can be very hard on themselves and sometimes others not meaning to. So that's the one. The two is a considerate helper. That's me. We considerate helpers want to be liked and appreciated. Considerate helpers can't help, but to help people they are very, very usually warm, easy to get to know, generous of themselves. They put other people's needs in front of their own, which isn't always a good thing. And sometimes, twos, because they want to be so helpful, they can almost be a little intrusive at times, because not everybody really wants or needs their help. So that's something that I have to watch out.

Speaker 2: 10:48

And so that's the two, the three, you, the competitive achiever, they, they're all about setting goals and achieving goals. They are very driven, they're very focused, they're all about. You know, I have a three leader who has two small children and she sent me at the beginning of the year a picture of their goal setting exercise quarterly. They're seven and 10. She has them do a goal setting exercise where they have to have two goals and two things under each goal. And it's not a piece of paper, you know, with a line down the middle and their cute little pencil. But who would do that? But a but a, you know. Competitive achiever, mother, it's great. And so competitive achievers, you know, they're often leading organizations and very, very successful. And at times, so their passion, by the way, or their passion, is deceit. Now, I know that sounds terrible, but it's not that they're deceitful, it's that they are just very carefully curated. They present what they want you to see and not what, necessarily, they don't want you to see. So that's the three. Can you relate?

Speaker 1: 11:48

to that. I like that Carefully curated. That sounds so much nicer than fake or chameleon or all those like Carefully curated.

Speaker 2: 11:56

That's what I like to say. Yeah, so the four, our daughters of four, they're the rarest of all. They are the intense creatives. Their core motivation is they need to be unique, they need to be different. They're very emotional, they're very in touch with their emotions, they're almost empathic. They're very creative, they're very aesthetic, they are can be dramatic at times and they are often in jobs like photography or interior design or they're artists or something very creative. And we don't see them much in corporations. And they are the rarest Five.

Speaker 2: 12:29

The five is the quiet specialist. Their core motivation is they need to understand things deeply, they need to have deep knowledge of the world and they want to protect their energy so they can pursue that knowledge. They are to have deep knowledge of the world and they want to protect their energy so they can pursue that knowledge. They are the most introverted of all the types. They are usually very intelligent, very cerebral. They protect themselves from sort of the outward world. In a way they prefer to think behind closed doors. Again, the most introverted type. But they're the ones on the team that have probably sometimes the most to offer. They don't offer it unless it's like something that's really important but you want to call on those people. If you've got a five on the team, you want to kind of call on those people. Give them some time to think about it. But you want their thought leadership because when they know something they've done their homework and they know it well.

Speaker 2: 13:15

The six is a loyal skeptic. They do not see the world as a safe place. Their core motivation is the need to be safe. Often people that go into jobs like security or military are loyal skeptics because they see it's their job to keep themselves and others safe. They are very trustworthy, very loyal, very skeptical, very much aware of their environment. They're always doing risk assessments. Some say that they like to see the world as half empty instead of half full, because they're always thinking about what can go wrong.

Speaker 2: 13:45

The seven is the enthusiastic visionary. They are all about experiencing life fully and avoiding pain. Their core motivation is to to again experience life fully and they are the visionaries or the risk takers or the thrill seekers. My mother's a seven. She's got five or six projects going all at the same time and she may finish one or two of them. She may not. She kind of goes wherever it interests her, but they are lots of fun and they're always seeking enjoyment and pleasure.

Speaker 2: 14:15

The eight is the active controller. Their core motivation is they have to be in control and they're not good at showing vulnerability. They don't like none of us like being vulnerable, but it's really hard for an eight to be vulnerable. They are strong, they are take charge, they are assertive. They have no problem with conflict. They often are also leaders, especially healthy eights. They're some of the best leaders. Martin Luther King was an eight, reportedly, if you think about his fierce determination to look out to what he did in the world. Perfect example of a very healthy eight. The nine the final one is the adaptive peacemaker. They are all about keeping the peace. They do not like conflict and chaos. They are the great diplomats. They're great like conflict and chaos. They are the they're great diplomats. They're great at getting everybody's thoughts on the table and gaining consensus. Great facilitators, kind of slow and steady wins the race for them. They like routines and they're often the glue that will keep teams and families together. So there's a run through of your nine types.

Speaker 1: 15:16

It's so funny because my husband is a nine.

Speaker 2: 15:19

And when.

Speaker 1: 15:20

I learned that all of a sudden. I had a different view. He hates conflict. He will avoid conflict. He is never, ever going to yell at anyone. If someone came, a handyman came and didn't get it right, well, he wouldn't even tell him, you know. So I actually viewed that as okay. He doesn't like conflict. That's really nice. And maybe a nine is really good with a three, you know.

Speaker 2: 15:44

You know, I've not thought about that. I think there's all kinds of good combinations of numbers. I don't think there's any numbers that are better than others. My husband's a one, so I've got a strict perfectionist in my world, and my daughter's a four, so that's an interesting dynamic. But yeah, nines are nines. It's good that they don't like conflict, but sometimes we need healthy conflict too, right?

Speaker 1: 16:03

So he'll send the three in for that.

Speaker 2: 16:05

Well, or an eight. An eight will be perfect at conflict.

Speaker 1: 16:09

So yeah, do you?

Speaker 2: 16:09

really like conflict.

Speaker 1: 16:11

No, I don't, I would rather. I'd much rather have. I don't want to be mean ever to the handyman, so I would never be worth getting money off of something. Even though I'm a coupon mom, I would never want to impose financial burden on someone else because I need to have. I would say, could you redo it? I'd pay him twice, but I wouldn't be mean about it. I don't know if that's Enneagram 3 or if it's just my weirdness, but I have a Well, no, actually conflict style.

Speaker 2: 16:37

for the threes to get confined is to get sort of methodical. So you're just going to kind of work through it. You're going to come up with a plan and you're just going to work through it. So that's what threes do when they find conflict, is they get?

Speaker 1: 16:49

methodical. So I guess that's it. I jump in and get methodical. I would be interested, janice, if you have any stories about some of the situations on teams when you came in and maybe not necessarily a before and after, but you're dealing with high level leaders and maybe this is new information for some of these folks. And have you seen, can you give us some stories? People love stories, I love stories.

Speaker 2: 17:15

Yeah, well, you know it's interesting because, sort of contrary to popular belief, we do not believe that we don't work with dysfunctional teams. We only work with teams that are either new or are forming or are already pretty functional and wanting to take it to the next level, because that's really kind of that's the best scenario. We certainly could go in and work with a dysfunctional team, but it's not nearly as gratifying, nor is it as easy to fix. It's much more fun to play in this space of already sort of new teams, forming teams or high performing teams. Yeah, I can tell you that we did this one team that was in the high tech industry and it was a bunch of HR leaders actually, and they all wanted to tell their origin story, which is that sort of how I became a three or two or what have you.

Speaker 2: 18:02

What was it was going on in your childhood, between seven and 13? And so they all went around and told their origin story and it was like, so powerful, we had one, one of their. Their leader actually said is that she was a three? Actually said is that she was a three and their leader actually said you know, I was, I was bullied and she was telling her. It was like told her origin story in a very vulnerable way. Nobody had ever seen this before and, as a leader, the respect for her in that room went up about threefold as a result of her leaning into her vulnerability and telling that story that she would have not usually told, not given, hadn had the experience or had the opportunity of having that experience.

Speaker 2: 18:42

We did a bunch of work in Europe last year and that was really interesting because we one of our first groups was a group of Eastern Europeans, so some from Russia, some from Poland, some, you know this was Ukraine was already at war, so this was an interesting scenario, and so it's really interesting to see how this tool sort of translates across cultures and across, you know, ethnicities, all of that.

Speaker 2: 19:06

So, and by the way it translates, beautifully, it's you know a one that in Eastern Europe is the same as a one in the US, but how powerful this tool is in the context of it's a global tool. So that was really interesting to me. Also interesting you cannot use this tool to predict sort of what kind of industry somebody is going to be in and what level of leadership, so I'll have you guess. So I did a group of technical leaders. They were leading the transformation technology transformation of a major company that we both know and love called Marriott. And what would you guess? Most of their types would have been, knowing that they're technical types, lots of engineers.

Speaker 1: 19:45

Yes, so I would guess either the five or the eight. So would have I.

Speaker 2: 19:50

They were all two. They were all considered helpers Not all, but the majority of them were considered helpers. Blew me away. You never want to guess. By the way, it's a really bad idea to try to guess people's Enneagrams, because even as trained as I am, I can be wrong. That's why we like this specific assessment that we use, and I'll talk about that in a minute. Yeah, so we did a group of lawyers too.

Speaker 2: 20:12

What would you think a group of lawyers would be? I would think a one, one or maybe an eight active controller standing up for the little guy right. Again, a bunch of twos. And what was interesting about that? As I talked to them about it, they're like they actually got into law because they wanted to help people. And that made sense to me once I really thought through it. But I you know. So it's just fascinating, the mixture in the room and what's what's? What you want is every type right. You want the best scenario is when you have every type in the room, because that's the diversity of the Enneagram that we talk about. That is so powerful.

Speaker 2: 20:45

Now, you're not supposed to use it as a hiring tool. Again, it's not a predictor of what industry you'll be in or what leadership level you'll be in, but it's great if you have every type, because every type has a very important contribution to make. So those are some of the stories I'm trying to think of. I forgot any other, you know. Just, it's just fun to. I always tell Alan a story about Alan. He hates when we're doing a workshop. But we talk about the twos relationship with resentment. Twos can get resentful at times because we're always doing, doing, doing for everybody else, and if we're not being appreciated for it or if anybody they don't ask if we need help, we can get resentful. So I tell a Thanksgiving story that Alan hates, but I'll tell it right here.

Speaker 2: 21:27

Yeah, thanksgiving 2020, my husband and my husband and my daughter and I and I'm busting my tail in the kitchen to make a beautiful Thanksgiving for us because, you know, we need to have a great time. It's COVID, so somebody's, I think, sleeping, and the other person's watching a movie, you know, but nobody's downstairs helping me. So I'm starting to get resentful. And so they come downstairs after a while and I'm huffing, you know, just huffing, I resentful. And so they come downstairs after a while and I'm huffing, you know, just huffing. I'm not saying anything, I'm just kind of huffing.

Speaker 2: 21:54

And they're like, what is going on with you? And I'm like, well, where have you guys been? I mean, I'm busting my tail down here. And they said, well, you didn't ask for help. And then it dawned on me Not only did I not ask for help, stephanie, I've trained them that I'm just going to do it with my own darn fault. I've just trained them, I'm going to be doing this all the time. So it was a real aha moment for me. But we tell that story and I'll Alan always does some comedic stuff around it, like, yeah, you know, as a one, he hates being pointed out that he might have been doing something not perfect, so it's kind of a fun little dynamic.

Speaker 1: 22:27

But it is interesting because it's no one's wrong. It's just understanding why we act the way we act. I mean, for me, when I became you know, I read this description of Enneagram three and you know there's 35 page report. Certain things jump out at you. Of course I didn't digest all, but what jumped out at me was that if you're a performer, you said what is your origin story? Well, my parents were divorced when I was nine years old, which meant my mother went back to work and my dad has moved out of the house and it's just as traumatic as can be. And when you're a child, you don't recognize trauma, you don't know how to deal with it, you just shovel it away.

Speaker 1: 23:06

And everyone says kids are resilient. I hate that statement. Kids are resilient. No, they're not. They just are not given an opportunity to express however they feel.

Speaker 1: 23:18

So what I found was that working and performing, and especially making money, got my parents attention. They thought that was pretty good. If I got really good grades, that got their attention, and especially my dad, if I had a lemonade stand and it made money. And eventually I babysat and eventually I started cleaning ladies' houses and then I waitressed and I learned early on in life that there is some sort of measurement with the amount of money that you make in terms of parental approval. And to unwind that?

Speaker 1: 23:50

Because today I would say to you, money is only a tool. It is not a measurement of who you are. It is a useful tool, but you are loved by God, you are loved by your family. You are not defined by that. In fact, you know what. You don't have to earn their love, you can just be who you are. So when you talk about Enneagram 3s, putting up kind of a highly curated, I am so much better at not being curated. I'm 60 years old too. So you do get to a point where you're like, oh, who cares? Who cares? And guess what? They like you. Because they like you, they love you. Because they love you, you don't have to perform. And what I say to my husband, it is so nice just to have the same version for everyone and you know what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 24:33

It's so beautiful because we talk about this in our debriefs. So your vice is that deceit or that careful security, but you're leaning into the virtue, which is basically what you just described. And the virtue I'm just looking it up in my book because I don't have them all memorized but the virtue for the three is hope, and what it basically is is the hope of understanding that people will love you and like you, not because you're successful, because you're lovable, just because you're lovable, and you don't have to work so hard at being successful to gain their love or their approval. And that's exactly what you figured out. So you're looking into your virtue and that's exactly what you figured out. So you're listening to your virtue.

Speaker 1: 25:12

And why does it take so long to figure that out? And then you take it a step further and say and why am I going to sit around and worry about if people like or love me? How about if I make people feel loved?

Speaker 2: 25:24

Or love yourself.

Speaker 1: 25:25

Yeah, that's right. And, and because of that, it's like I'm going to spend time with this. There's a woman in our neighborhood who's older and I discovered she was widowed and she was alone. And I went to visit her because I thought, you know, I've never met her and you know what, I'm going to spend some time with her and, Janice, I think I'm being nice. Right, that's a nice thing to do. I've got the time. Well, you know what happened. She's delightful, I had been missing out. Yeah, right, right. So not having to perform, not having to prove your worth. Now my parents no blame on them If your nine-year-old says, hey, I'm saving up money to buy a bicycle they're going to say, good job. Yeah, they didn't recognize that. I was just trying to get their attention by making money, but anyway, I did get something else I want to go to.

Speaker 2: 26:13

you said something about not making people wrong. I love that about this tool too, because I've got a mantra. I learned this in my coaching training. It's how can you not make people wrong? And once you understand that there's this core motivation, it so helps you to not make people wrong, and it's so, it's so powerful. It's like it's just love them for where they are and let's not make them wrong. It's like understanding where they came from, and I love that.

Speaker 1: 26:35

And so much. It just sounds to me this tool is a good way to understand other people, to understand other people. Our pastor said this yesterday in church and I loved it. He said he was talking about unity and not having division. You know, because that's the big topic right now right, if we all did the Enneagram and we understood other people, we'd probably have a lot less division. But he said you know what, we're going to disagree on things, but if we understand each other, he said we may not see eye to eye, but we can stand shoulder to shoulder.

Speaker 1: 27:05

And I thought, wow, if we can be more curious about other people, if we can turn it around and stop worrying about what. Are they thinking of me? How about can I love them? It's, you know, I'm retired, I have a lot more time to think about this kind of stuff. And we talked Janice about. You know what would you tell your younger self? I would tell my younger self to, like you said, do the work when I'm 30 years old, do the work so that you can move through this life in a more fulfilling and joyful and loving way and far less stressful way.

Speaker 2: 27:37

Yeah, and I've said to so many people not in doing that work, and I, anybody who's ever worked for me I'm not sure I told you this, but anybody who's ever worked with me or for me I've said get a therapist or a coach or sometimes both, and I'm not kidding, it's like that is the work. That's what you're talking about. Do the work. Put that mirror down.

Speaker 1: 27:56

Yeah, there's no shame in getting a therapist and a coach. In fact, it's probably the best thing any of us could ever do. Yep, yep and you know the difference, right?

Speaker 2: 28:05

Well, why don't you explain the difference? So, for me, the difference and I do. I like to make this delineation because sometimes people get in a coaching relationship with me and they say they feel like it's therapy and I'm like I don't know. Therapy is about looking back, healing your childhood wounds. Looking back, healing whatever wounds, traumas, whatever that you need to heal and I think we all have those. Coaching is about looking forward. What do you want to create? Coaching is about looking forward. What do you want to create? You know, what do you want to change about yourself? What do you want to create about yourself? What's that next thing you want to evolve with your leadership or who you are as a human being? So that's really the difference.

Speaker 1: 28:40

That's a big difference. Yeah, if people are hung up on stuff that they might not understand from the past, it can trip you up Sure.

Speaker 2: 28:46

Yeah, and that's why I say sometimes you need one or the other, or sometimes both, depending on what's going on in your life?

Speaker 1: 28:52

So, janice, I know you, you coach high level teams. You probably don't have a lot of bandwidth for folks, but if someone's listening to this and they say, you know, I would like a coach, where should someone begin?

Speaker 2: 29:04

Well, you know, certainly, if you're interested in working with us, there's three of us right now and we've got some other associates that we know out there that are certified in Enneagram, that we often collaborate with. So you can go to our website, to questagecom, q-u-e-s-t-a-g-ecom, but there's the International Coaches Foundation Federation is a great resource. They've got lists and lists of certified coaches, so that's a great resource as well and just, I mean you could Google it. I mean there's all kinds of companies out there now that mainly work with corporations, but I know Torch is a company that's out there that is offering package coaching and there's Better, is it BetterUp? Betterup is, I believe they like BetterHelp, which is a you can get therapists online.

Speaker 2: 29:52

Better Up is also an opportunity for people If you want to just, you know, quickly get a coach. That's another resource for people who I've never gone through that you know. There's boutique coaching, which is what we do, and then there's more sort of I don't want to say mass produced, but mass market coaching, and I think coaching should be accessible to everybody at any level. Everybody should be accessible to everybody at any level. Everybody should be able to afford a coach and a therapist, and so that's why I think there's so many great different levels of resources that are out there. So those would be some of the top of mind ones for people.

Speaker 1: 30:22

Well, thank you, I'm going to put those in the show notes too. But oh gosh, I said, janice, I'll only keep you half an hour, but we hit that time, so you're going to have to come back, you're just too full of wisdom.

Speaker 2: 30:35

It's called age wisdom and age right. Age is wisdom, so I would love to come back.

Speaker 1: 30:40

Well, thank you so much for your time. It's great to see you and I look forward to staying in touch. Me too, take care, stephanie.