The Fremont Podcast
Episode 122: Offering Help with Relationships in our South Asian Community with Shalini and Chet Dayal
What happens when South Asian couples migrate to the United States post-marriage? In this episode, we talk with Shalini and Chet Dayal about their unique experiences of isolation, cultural adjustment, and familial pressures. Shalini, a seasoned marriage and family therapist, shares her journey from an arranged marriage to a thriving career, offering valuable insights into the challenges couples face. We talk about the impact of extended family expectations and cultural integration on relationships, and hear firsthand how Shalini's expertise helps couples navigate through these complexities.
We broaden our lens to examine South Asian arranged marriages within the context of gender roles, cultural differences, and evolving family dynamics. From the generational gap in family expectations to the pressures of maintaining traditional values while adapting to Western life, we uncover the intricacies that shape these relationships. Through engaging conversations and professional insights, we present a nuanced view of how immigrant families can foster better understanding and navigate the challenges of cultural assimilation.
To find out more about what Shalini and Chet do in our community, check out their website here.
If you are interested in supporting the podcast, please reach out to us at thefremontpodcast@gmail.com, or you can contact us here.
Petrocelli Homes has been a key sponsor of The Fremont Podcast from the beginning. If you are looking for a realtor, get in touch with Petrocelli Homes on Niles Blvd in Fremont.
Founder: Ricky B.
Intro and outro voice-overs made by Gary Williams.
Editor: Andrew Cavette.
Scheduling and pre-interviews by the amazing virtual assistant that you ought to hire, seriously, she's great: your.virtual.ace
This is a Muggins Media Podcast.
What happens when South Asian couples migrate to the United States post-marriage? In this episode, we talk with Shalini and Chet Dayal about their unique experiences of isolation, cultural adjustment, and familial pressures. Shalini, a seasoned marriage and family therapist, shares her journey from an arranged marriage to a thriving career, offering valuable insights into the challenges couples face. We talk about the impact of extended family expectations and cultural integration on relationships, and hear firsthand how Shalini's expertise helps couples navigate through these complexities.
We broaden our lens to examine South Asian arranged marriages within the context of gender roles, cultural differences, and evolving family dynamics. From the generational gap in family expectations to the pressures of maintaining traditional values while adapting to Western life, we uncover the intricacies that shape these relationships. Through engaging conversations and professional insights, we present a nuanced view of how immigrant families can foster better understanding and navigate the challenges of cultural assimilation.
To find out more about what Shalini and Chet do in our community, check out their website here.
If you are interested in supporting the podcast, please reach out to us at thefremontpodcast@gmail.com, or you can contact us here.
Petrocelli Homes has been a key sponsor of The Fremont Podcast from the beginning. If you are looking for a realtor, get in touch with Petrocelli Homes on Niles Blvd in Fremont.
Founder: Ricky B.
Intro and outro voice-overs made by Gary Williams.
Editor: Andrew Cavette.
Scheduling and pre-interviews by the amazing virtual assistant that you ought to hire, seriously, she's great: your.virtual.ace
This is a Muggins Media Podcast.
So it's a huge pressure, and even when you think you want to be supportive of your wife, that she's in the right, this is the way you've agreed to raise your children, this is how the world is around you. You think that's the best thing that you and her are doing. You've got to stave off that pressure from the parents, and so men either fold and you know oh, my mom says you need to do this or they listen to the mom and say yeah, sure, sure, sure, but then blow it off, or they build distance.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah, you can come visit for a week and then we'll you know, we'll manage the theatrics and then you'll be gone and we'll do our own thing but the couples who are raised, born and raised in india, but they're coming here post-marriage, or often the woman is coming here from post-marriage.
Speaker 2:One of the things which I know I went through was isolation Not talked about Isolation and then, consequently, depression, until they are assimilated into the workforce or they go back to college. And I'm saying this because I lived that. I lived that experience. This was foreign to him.
Speaker 3:Coming to you straight from Fremont, California. This is the Fremont Podcast, dedicated to telling the stories of the past and present of the people and places of the city of Fremont, one conversation at a time.
Speaker 4:The staff at Ohlone College on the Fremont campus or at least some of the staff at Ohlone College on the Fremont campus are fond of keeping track of the birds that live on campus. I'm here in the upper-level roundabout and I'm looking at at least two woodpeckers are there usually more than two.
Speaker 5:There can be as many as probably 10 to 12. There's one, two, three, there's six palm trees here and, as you can see, they are very heavily yeah, pecked with holes. Yeah, especially toward the top yeah so, and what I actually love is that there's new growth at the top of the palm trees, and that is from the woodpeckers storing acorns and other seeds.
Speaker 4:It's actually not palm tree growth oh, like there are oak, there are oak. Yeah, you're right, there are oak trees growing on the top of the palm trees.
Speaker 5:There are at least maybe two sets of ravens who have a presence on campus. There's another pair that nested on the top of the bell tower over by the Smith Center, and then this nest we just noticed this year.
Speaker 5:And who's the we Like how many people on campus that you know of like enjoy keeping track of the birds? Well, I think a lot of us do. I think that's one of the beautiful things about working so close to nature is that you do have access to wildlife, and I would say the majority of that wildlife are birds and insects. A fair amount of people have noticed this nest. It's in a walkway space where you know a number of people probably pass through. We have a number of swallows on the campus. They always return every spring, so everybody who's worked here for any length of time knows the swallows, and last year and the year before a whole bunch of us, including even our photography department, got really into following a blue heron nest. We've had two sets of nests up in a blue pine tree on campus.
Speaker 4:The ravens are currently just sitting on a outdoor stair banister, kind of surveying the land.
Speaker 5:I believe that's mommy or daddy, I cannot fully tell and then one of the babies, and the baby is sitting back a little further than mommy. That mommy has been very protective the last couple of days. I take a little bit of solace seeing that she's actually perched right there, because two days ago, in an attempt to get a slightly better look at the nest, I opened the door from the building to that stairwell. I turned and looked to the left and there she was, coming straight at me. I freaked out and I ran back inside and closed the door quickly. I really do believe it's that. You know, her babies were in a pretty vulnerable state. They were just learning to fly. In fact, one of them hadn't fledged yet and she was feeding it actually just a short while before I stepped out there. So I probably should have known better. Maybe she was just attempting to land where she is right now, but it certainly seemed like she was coming right at me.
Speaker 4:In the small line of windows that are at the top of the gym is a long row of windows and in one of those is very obviously the nest.
Speaker 5:Right and even just a little further down the building, under the eaves of that kind of those windows, you can see a swallow nest as well yeah, so there are so many birds on this campus? There really are. There's a lot of songbird, uh, birds who love, you know, picking at the olives down olive lane. Uh, we have ravens and other raptors. We have hawks around and occasionally a heron or an egret will stop by. So it's pretty exciting actually to think about it, to have access to all that just during your work day.
Speaker 2:Oh, here comes somebody.
Speaker 5:I do think that's one of the babies you can kind of tell they're not the most secure flyer. Now I'm curious to see if baby makes his or her way back to mom.
Speaker 4:I can understand the addiction I haven't even been here that long and there's lots of action. You are listening to episode 122 of the Fremont Podcast.
Speaker 3:Now here's your host, Ricky B.
Speaker 2:Shalini.
Speaker 6:Shalini, is that how you say?
Speaker 2:it Shalini. Okay, shalini and Chet Chet yeah.
Speaker 6:Okay, I had a great-uncle, Chet. So my grandfather's brother's name was Chet, so that was.
Speaker 3:There we go.
Speaker 6:When I saw that I was like oh, I know, I know that name um. And you said that you've been in fremont for 30 years 30 years.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes, I've been in fremont for 30 years. Wow, what um what was uh?
Speaker 6:tell me about a little bit about your story of coming to fremont, like what brought you here well, marriage.
Speaker 2:So, uh, we were in an arranged marriage and we came here I mean he was already here. He was raised in new arranged marriage and we came here. I mean he was already here. He was raised in New York but I came here, and in San Francisco, but I came here post-marriage.
Speaker 6:Okay, yes, wow, were you living in India then at the time?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I was born and raised in India. Yes, wow, very good.
Speaker 6:And then, how long were you living in the United States?
Speaker 1:So I've been living here almost 40 years. So, I came as a child, in eighth grade, to New York city. Then my family migrated to San Francisco city proper, okay, and in 83, we moved to Newark, actually, um, and then, ever since then, I've been in the Newark Fremont area so long time in here yeah, I have friends that have, uh, have done the arranged marriage thing, um, and I'm I'm curious for you.
Speaker 6:Like I, I have friends that recently have been married from an arranged marriage and I have friends that have been married for a long time from that. So what was it like? Uh, I'm just curious like you were you were in new york, been there since you were a young young one. And then how did?
Speaker 1:how did you get matched up with, uh, with chalene, yeah, so um, for me, you know, I I had been brought up here, I had dated through high school, college, had had long-term girlfriends, and at that point in time I wasn't dating anybody. You know, I wasn't and I happened to travel to india just to be with family and stuff, and they always made it a point for me to go visit a lot of people that seem to have, you know, eligible young girls.
Speaker 6:So there's a good friends to have. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's just kind of like a nudge, nudge, nudge. You guys should talk, kind of thing. And then it progressed from that to okay, let's go out on another date. And when we say date, it was like a group date.
Speaker 2:I heard like brother and sister and my cousins were all along.
Speaker 1:And then finally, when we got comfortable, it was like they would let us kind of go off and walk on our own.
Speaker 6:We got ice cream, so it was very kind of gradual, but the choreographed let's put it that way, as someone though that you know kind of like, your formative years were in New York City in the United States. I mean, it seems to me that that was that more of. Was the idea of arranged marriage more of a foreign concept to you?
Speaker 1:Or was it something that you were more familiar with? I was totally familiar with it and that that's. You know. People living in India or have gone through it. My parents have gone through it. My uncles and aunts have gone through it. My parents have gone through it.
Speaker 6:My uncles- and aunts have gone through it. But here is like that's not how we do things, right, yeah, yeah, and so I mean even the fact that you had girlfriends or you had, you know, it's just interesting that you had still had kind of like a drawback to that, Right.
Speaker 1:And so it just kind of happened. I mean, because it was the time and place and where I was in life that I was amenable to that, right, that's great, yeah. And then there's you know, other people have a quite a different story there. You know, they go back to India for two weeks with the intention of finding a bride, right, and then everything's set up, chuck, chuck, chuck, chuck, chuck. And then by the 13th day you need to make a decision and it's done, right, yeah.
Speaker 6:Shalini, how was that experience for you Like? Did you guys know each other then before you went back to India? No, no, no, Not at all.
Speaker 2:I was in a different city where I was raised, and so my parents I mean my- parents and his parents lived in a different city in. Delhi, which most people are familiar with, and so my parents asked me to come over to meet him, and so that's when I went and met him, and at that time I had seen several men and but I was not.
Speaker 2:I was not interested, I was too focused yeah on my education and my profession and so, which was a different one, which was a different one back then? Yes, absolutely. Then, you know, and and I think when I met him and I was like, okay, he's, he's a great guy, he's really nice, and I actually went back, I had I, no, not interested, thank you very much Went back and then his parents called my parents. My parents said come back.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, and then my family was like I was 23, and my family was, oh, you're getting old, now it's time to get married. I was like, ah, it's time to get married. I was like, so, back then, the concept of a single, like a woman, a professional woman, was not necessarily the most acceptable one, and still is, and I think this is still. Women in india still face that. And, um, my work with clients and I've, over the years, over 30 years now that I have been in this profession I've worked, worked with clients and heard stories of arranged marriages which are very similar, and we still had a chance of across the Atlantic dating for about eight, nine months.
Speaker 2:So we didn't get married in that time. So we just did an engagement ceremony.
Speaker 1:But then from there on, like all the you know rules were off, we could communicate where, when, when we wanted, yes, yes, how much you know?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great.
Speaker 1:So we actually got to know each other really well. It was like in a long-distance relationship right For eight, nine months.
Speaker 2:Except that in long-, long distance relationship, the end of the end eight months you're getting married.
Speaker 6:That's right and was the marriage I'm assuming took place in India.
Speaker 2:It did. Yes, yes, that's great, wow.
Speaker 6:So then did you guys move to New York? Did you move to New York then?
Speaker 2:Or was that about the time you started heading back to Fremont? So I've been in Fremont for the last 33 years. Yes, wow, that's really cool.
Speaker 6:So you mentioned clients and I think that that kind of leads into part of the reason why we're here. But you said you have talked to clients over the years that have had various experiences, so tell me a little bit about what you do and what it means to have clients and what you do for them.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a great question. So I'm a marriage and family therapist in fremont and I've been in my goodness in this profession for 30 years, as I was saying, ever since I started my program in psychology, and I've been working with clients literally up and down the bay area. I've've worked with different agencies. I work with kids, I work with adults and I work with couples and families. So in my work here in Fremont, when I started my private practice, after I did my stint with a whole bunch of different agencies, in my work here in Fremont, there's a lot of different cultures and it gave me the privilege of working with a lot of South Asian cultures, because there's many here and in many South Asian cultures across the board, and I'm talking about, let's say, from Bhutan and Myanmar that's what it's called Bangladesh, india, sri Lanka, malaysia, thailand, pakistan, afghanistan and then the UAE. So pretty much along that corridor, arranged marriage is a very normal common concept.
Speaker 2:So part of the work that I do with couples that come into my practice, I do see the difficulties and challenges of two people who barely know each other connecting.
Speaker 2:And in an arranged marriage, especially in the South Asian cultures, it's not two people getting married, it's entire families, not just the core families, it's the extended families commingling and getting married, so to speak.
Speaker 2:And that creates a lot of difficulties and strifes for the couplehood because the pressure is ultimately on the couple. The families may be about 18,000 miles away, they may be on the other side of the continent, but the pressure and the expectations that they exert on the couplehood, on the relationship, is enormous and we see a lot of the families being burdened, overwhelmed by the pressures. For example, we recently did a workshop on unpacking the in-law baggage and people were surprised and we did it for our clinicians and clinicians from literally we had 500 clinicians on one of the workshops from around the country and beyond and they were saying we never realized that the in-law aspect is so important. We hear it, but unless we are educated, we are asking the clients to tell us more about it. We have no idea that this is such an important part of their lives and impacting the relationship. So I can talk on forever, but I'll give you a chance.
Speaker 6:No, that's great. I mean, yeah, I think that that was part of like, as you were even telling your story, which I find truly fascinating, because I think that, from a Western mindset, or at least I'll say American mindset, that I have, you kind of uh, you, you can go about, like, if your goal is marriage which I think you know, many people's goal is marriage If your goal is to end up having a family, you know, marrying somebody, and you know, and all of that, a lot of times you like, whether, whether you realize it or not, or whether you do it consciously or not, you kind of go, you approach the relationship, uh, by like here's a, here's a checklist of things that I, that I, you know, that I really want in a spouse, you know, or you approach it from you know this person. We don't get along, we get along. You know that sort of of thing, and oftentimes you kind of are when you enter into that marriage relationship. Eventually, um, I can see that you uh have, I mean, you kind of are putting your eggs all in the basket.
Speaker 6:Did I choose? Well, you know, did I make a good, uh, a good choice in like this person because they, you know, they did this, they can do this, they can do this, and it checks all these boxes. But then, all of a sudden, you start experiencing problems and challenges and it's like, oh man, did I, did I mess up, did I choose the wrong person? In your case and in like what you're talking about, with, like the culture that you guys come from, it's like it's. You can't look back on it and say, you know, did I choose? Well, you almost have to look back. And you, you have to come from a it's like it's.
Speaker 6:You can't look back on it and say, you know, did I choose? Well, you almost have to look back. And you, you, you have to come from a different perspective. I think I mean, what are some of the things that, like, what are some of the approaches that you take when it comes to counseling? Well, actually, before we ask that, you can think you can answer that later, but I'm interested for both of you. I mean, you've been married for 30, 40, how long?
Speaker 2:34 years so yeah, yes so yes and no, okay, okay, yes and no.
Speaker 6:I guess what I'm asking is like tell me a little bit about your story, and like what are some of the things that you found that you had to work through that maybe were challenges, and so I think for for men in the south asian culture.
Speaker 1:It's. It's really challenging because, um, we have an expectation that you know. It's a, it's a patriarchal society. Right, men rule the kingdom, the castle. Right, you will get everything and everybody within your kingdom to follow your lead and um, if you have a wife, that is kind of stepping out of that. You know normative what they expect yeah then hey, you gotta tow her in. You know what do you?
Speaker 5:you know what kind of man are you right um, so it's a huge pressure.
Speaker 1:And even when you think you want to be supportive of your wife, that she's in the right, this is the way you've agreed to raise your children, this is how the world is around you. You think that's the best thing that you and her are doing. You've got to stave off that pressure from the parents. And, um, so men either fold and you know, oh, my mom says you need to do this, or they uh say, listen to the mom and say yeah, sure, sure, sure, but then then blow it off, or they build distance.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah, you can come visit for a week and then we'll manage the theatrics and then you'll be gone.
Speaker 6:We'll do our own thing.
Speaker 1:It's a challenge.
Speaker 6:What are some of the challenges you have? Tell me a little bit about your experience with that.
Speaker 2:So some of the challenges I think we had initially is we didn't know each other. So there were, we knew a little bit any, but we were also complete strangers with two different cultures. So he's far more acculturated than I was back then and so I had to, and I was also going in my journey trying to figure out what I wanted to do since after I came from.
Speaker 2:So in that journey I think the in-laws were not an issue in the beginning for us because his mother is no more and his father was back then in India, so the in-laws were not an issue. It was as an arranged marriage, as a couple. You know, it's like you said, the American system is so different, yeah, and we have adult children, so we see their journeys, which is very different, uh, from ours. So, like you know, like chad, they date and they had relationships, long term, short term. So they have gone through this, uh, this process and they still are going. So for us, it was learning to know each other was a big challenge, you know, and learning is not just as individuals, learning about the cultures we were. Now he is multicultural. What he's been tell you. He's also raised in kenya oh so he is multicultural.
Speaker 2:he's been exposed to so many different cultures. I was exposed to ind Indian culture and the Western culture. Love the Western cultures, yeah, so I assimilated. It was not an issue. But the mindsets were still impacted by our cultures, so how we thought and had expectations of each other, like in gender roles, for example. Yeah, you know how things should be Patriarchy versus wanting independence versus equality.
Speaker 2:So, those were the struggles that we actually faced and not necessarily like it was an easy process. And that's something I do see, Even if both the couples in my practice they are born and raised in India. He was raised, Chet was raised here and in Kenya. But the couples who are born and raised in India, but they're coming here post-marriage often the woman is coming here from post-marriage One of the things which I know I've been through was isolation Not talked about Isolation and then, consequently, depression until they are assimilated into the workforce or they go back to college. So and I'm saying this because I lived that, I lived that experience this was foreign to him.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And this was really because he didn't experience that. He came here as a child. He had assimilated, he had created his identity, his support system. I'm coming here with no one, not knowing anyone.
Speaker 6:Right.
Speaker 2:So I'm saying that was one of the frictions, I think, between us, Because he would be at work and I was calling him. Are you coming home, oh boy?
Speaker 6:You're my person that I need. Yes, yeah, so.
Speaker 2:I think so. When I work with clients from different communities, different countries, that's one of the things I do intensively look at. It's what was your migration story? Where were you came from? Sometimes, even within the country the United States is a large country Moving and leaving back extended family. Unless you're coming with a family of your creation, it's very lonely.
Speaker 6:We'll be right back. You can hear the rest of this conversation in just a moment.
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Speaker 6:Do you find yourself? You know, because you specifically deal with this general culture people group, it's kind of a, I would say, a niche community, but there's a lot of people here from South Asia.
Speaker 6:Do you find yourself like trying to reinforce the culture in some ways, or do you find that perhaps there it's, perhaps some of the work that you have to do with your clients is is kind of undoing some of the culture in order to in order to deal with certain things? In other words, when I think about, like an arranged marriage, I think there's some things about that that could be really just like relieve a lot of weight off of someone's shoulders. But then there's some things about that where I'm just like man, I feel like I would almost be a prisoner in some ways. You know, and so, like and so, and that could be my individual situation.
Speaker 6:You know, one person you know is just, you know, like you were talking about like when you first came to the United States. You're like, you're my person. When are you coming home? You know I need you. You weren't feeling like a prisoner. You're feeling like I'm tied to you and I love you, you know. So you have that part of it, so that can be a uh, a help to you. But I think for some people could probably feel like you know, what did I do? You know you feel like a victim of other people's choices in that sense.
Speaker 6:So how much of what you do is to kind of just navigate just personality, personal conflicts, and how much of it is to reinforce culture or to perhaps deconstruct culture and then try to put something back together.
Speaker 2:That's an excellent question. So in my job as a therapist, my job is not to reinforce their values or beliefs. My job is to ask what are their values and beliefs that are fitting into the situation? The current situation they're in is naming and identifying the difference in cultures. For example, like naming that you're coming from a different culture, which is South Asian cultures tend to be very collectivist. You're coming to which is Western cultures are very individualistic. So just naming, so that people can recognize that there's a reason I'm feeling different, there's a reason for that. So part of it is processes normalizing, naming and normalizing the experiences so they don't feel something's wrong with me. As far as it comes to do you deconstruct the culture, people, and I think I hear that as assimilation and acculturation.
Speaker 2:People do that. Different people do that at their own pace and often it is dependent on their life experiences and how do they internalize and process those life experiences into learnings and their traumas. So there's a lot of different factors. For example, somebody who came here. I was very fortunate as somebody who came here. I got into college and I chose psychology and I started studying, found an amazing cohort of friends and 30 years later we still are friends.
Speaker 6:Wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:That gave me the roots that helped me create a family of my choice, a family of creation. That's great, so they became part of my family.
Speaker 6:I like that, a family of choice, because I know where you're coming from because of the echoes of what you said, where an arranged marriage is not just the bringing together of two people, but two families.
Speaker 6:And so in some sense, you're not even in charge of the choice of who you marry, but even who your in-laws are, who your extended family is and, in some sense, by finding a second family in your colleagues and the people that you went through college with and went through all that kind of gives you the option of here is my family, that's given to me by someone else's choice and here's the family that I get to choose. Choose that I get to be a part of that and you know, and I think both can have their values to them, you know. So that's that's, that's interesting. How, how does I? Don't know, I'm interested. How does that work for a lot of people? Like, how, how? Like I like the way that you said that you don't try to speak. I can't remember exactly the words you used, but it was like you don't try to reinforce their perception of their culture, but you try to ask them to identify for themselves what it is that.
Speaker 6:And explore with them and explore with them what works for them.
Speaker 2:I mean what part of the cultures people do want to keep their cultural identity, and that's important it is because it's such a deep part of us yeah, you know, just like your culture yeah, you know coming from wisconsin is it is a part of you and always will be part of you same thing. It's like acknowledging that, normalizing them, exploring with them yeah what works, what doesn't work? Yeah and then also recognizing and naming the push and pull yeah the guilt, the blame.
Speaker 2:Often people say in the couple relationship I've had many, many, many couples tell me I am really missing my family, I want to help them and I'm sending money and resources, and that is true and people do. The partner is saying I don't understand, especially in like cross-cultural relationships where people are from two different cultures coming together and they tell me, the partners tell me I don't understand this concept of this, this guilt that you have towards your family, filial loyalty what do you mean? Filial loyalty doesn't something like like the italians did. What are you talking about?
Speaker 2:so and so, understanding those those concepts that it's, for example, that is, a collective's culture. The culture needs the younger people to support the older people, because in those cultures, in those countries, there are no senior homes yeah there's no care for social security.
Speaker 2:Who takes care of the elderly is the children. So, having an understanding of what's happening for each individual in the session of their process and helping them name it and recognize it, so then they can say okay, I'm not just acting just because I feel like this. I'm doing certain things because I have certain loyalties. I feel guilt, I feel like I've abandoned my family. Okay, now let me see what works for me, or not.
Speaker 2:So, it helps the partners also to recognize, helps the partners recognize what's happening with their partner, recognize what's happening with their partner.
Speaker 6:I'm thinking you know. So, as you were talking and we've been talking the last few minutes, I've been thinking about this. I think that I'd be interested in knowing and I'm not expecting you to know the answer to this, but I'd be interested in knowing what say the divorce rates are of different cultures, because I feel like I feel like, um, in western culture and American culture, like if I'm the one doing the choosing to find my partner, then I can unchoose.
Speaker 6:If I decide that that's not what I you know, but in some cases I would feel like in a, in a culture where the choosing is being done for you in some sense, and and especially and I'd like to hear you talk a little bit more about this as well Like the honor shame culture. Like I can.
Speaker 6:I can imagine how somebody who has a choice being made for them to be in a range situation for them, feeling like I can't unchoose this because this was, it was not under my power or control to bring this together, this was somebody else's doing, so therefore I'm, quote, unquote, stuck, or I'm you know whatever. So so then there's like, this mindset of like there's not. I can't take that way out. If I feel like I'm, if I'm, trapped, um, but then even, but even then. But that also takes certain, you know, certain solutions off the table and it says now, what do I have to work with you?
Speaker 6:know, and, and I think within that, like what are some of the things that you find are helpful for people to think through? Because I think that even as a western, coming from a western mindset, you know, chose my wife, I asked her to marry me. You know that sort of thing. I still feel bound by the, you know, for me, the covenant of marriage. You know, I still feel that that's an important thing. And even on days when you know she's the last person that I want in the room with me, you know it's like I still realize no, there's, there's a bigger picture here. So what are some?
Speaker 2:of the challenges, maybe, or some of the ways that you have to help people process through this understanding of working through the relational conflicts that come up, multifaceted questions, I mean.
Speaker 6:There's a lot there I can talk for hours on understand. You're spending your life trying to answer these questions and I'm asking you to answer in two minutes.
Speaker 2:Probably Absolutely. So I think let me start with what, in my experience you know, just answering, like, the first question about what happens in an arranged marriage is somebody finds themselves stuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Usually say the divorce rates that you mentioned. I have no data so I can tell you, but I can tell you based on experience divorce rates have gone up in the.
Speaker 2:South Asian community and I think and this is not just my experience I also run a networking group of clinicians and I hear that from most of us and most of us get the number one call we get is my relationship is in trouble. Second one is like my child is in trouble and so. But number one call for most clinicians in the area and South Asian clinicians from now around the country, we can say, because we've been in contact with clinicians actually across the globe who work with South Asian community in different countries as well and they say the same thing that number one call for counseling is my relationship is in trouble. Now, people don't always come in together, people often come in individually as well and there are times where, say, the relationship is toxic to the point where it is dangerous.
Speaker 2:When there's domestic violence, when there's infidelity, then there is addictions. Those become very, very difficult, especially if the person is in physical danger. The children are in physical danger. That becomes one of the number one non-negotiables. Physical danger that becomes one of the number one non-negotiables. The different. The other things you know that can be worked on is often, unless the distance between the couple is so great that they have given up on the marriage, on the relationship.
Speaker 6:They've already shut down.
Speaker 2:They've already shut down and they don't want to re-engage. There are some times we get that. Most of the time we are able to get them to a place to re-engage, asking them, for example, as you said, how do you navigate those differences? What are they missing in the relationship? Especially if the partner is open to coming in, then we can have a conversation. Most of the time when partners come in because they want to listen, they want to know, like you said, you know there are times with your wife. It's like she's the last person I want to see right now but you remember, she's also the person you would go to.
Speaker 6:That's right. That's right yeah.
Speaker 2:When things go down.
Speaker 6:So, baby, if you're listening, I want you to hear that part of it as well. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2:So often that's what is happening In an arranged marriage. The love may not be in the beginning, but the love usually grows A lot of time. The love does grow, so the affection, the connection does grow amongst people. It doesn't always last, but there's no guarantees of anything.
Speaker 2:So in relationships where couples are willing to come in or one is saying something is wrong, maybe I can make some changes. People come in and then we work on what is missing in their relationship, what they can do. Often our focus is on developing and supporting the person. Become the person they want to be. Often that helps in any relationship. That's great.
Speaker 6:Chet, I'm curious for you. I can't remember which one of you mentioned, but the idea of gender roles, the patriarchy, as being a big part of all of our cultures but just in different ways, I think, we process it, we see things differently. Like as you think about, are you also doing like therapy as well?
Speaker 1:So I'm a life coach, so I help people in doing. You know transitions from careers or changes in their lives. You know transitions from careers or changes in their lives.
Speaker 6:So I'm just, I'm curious for you on the on the whole gender role slash, patriarchy, influence and so on, like how much of that, how much of that do you feel is a challenge, maybe for you personally, or that you can see that transfers to a lot of other people? Because I would imagine in some cases, if, if I'm grow up, if I grew up in a society where you know I'm a man, my choices matter the most, I'm the one who yep, you know when I say it, it happens. And then being told, maybe in counseling or in some sort of a therapy session, you've both got to work on this. You both have got and I'm not saying this is the way you come across it, but I can imagine you don't approach it from this is only a one-sided problem. And then you've got to get in line with the man. So for you, as you process it from a Southeastern, not South Eastern- South.
Speaker 6:Asian perspective. Like, what does that feel? Like? What are some of the things that? What is that saying to you? Like, how do you process that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I bring like two lenses to that. One is as a South Asian man, right, the other is as a student of economics. Know that's my background and so over time, that that patriarchal setup worked well before the world war ii, before the 50s. White picket fence mom stays home, raises the kids, keeps the kitchen clean, man man right, drives home, has everything, supper is ready.
Speaker 1:But after that we had a period where women were forced to go to work to help the war effort and then when they were in the workforce, they couldn't just be removed, they stayed in the workforce.
Speaker 1:So now you had two income, two working, working folks, and things had to change I mean, just all of a sudden you have a partner running the household and, and so that just has evolved. And it's true in south asian homes, especially in metropolitan cities and like in mumbai and delhi and so forth, a lot of two-income families it's not just mom that has to put the kids to bed or read to them or help them with bathing or homework. So economics force that change and you have to recognize that that what you yearn for with your grandfathers, great-grandfather's era, is not realistic anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So women gain autonomy, women gain a voice in how things start to be done, and they often bring in part of the paycheck that runs the household. That's right so you have to flex, so you have to flex.
Speaker 6:Yeah, you have to flex. Yeah, it is interesting because for so long, like I was just I was recently I was going back and watching some old TV shows and some old movies from you know, ones that I would have either been made.
Speaker 1:My favorite is Leave it To Be Right yeah and yeah, exactly.
Speaker 6:So you look at that and you're like, in that day and age, at that time period, all of that made sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, father knows best.
Speaker 6:Everyone could relate to that, because that's what houses and families look like, you know, across the country.
Speaker 6:Yeah, you know you didn't have people revolting. You didn't have people, you know, like canceling it Yep, you didn't have people. You know, like canceling it Yep, this was it, you know, and so. But now you play some of those episodes to people today you can, it's a. You probably have a hard time even finding those episodes, those shows, because it doesn't like that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 6:I mentioned talking about like how you do you help them deconstruct the culture. I was even just thinking, as I was mentioning, that I was like I feel like our society is in the middle of deconstructing our Western culture. Things that were okay 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, are not okay today, and I think that there is is I think there could be a pendulum swing one way or the other. I think there's always a pendulum swing. You could say, well, this is not okay, so let's go all the way over here, and it's like then you find that there's a lot of problems there with with it on the other side. Um, so I guess I guess my yeah. So so I guess what I'm saying is is like there it's, we're in a, it's becoming more and more fluid, more and more flexible situation within our society and culture today.
Speaker 6:So I guess my question is for both of you, as you guys interact with people from South Asian communities that are here now, what are some of the things that you find and now you've already mentioned some of you already mentioned some of them, but more specifically, like, what are some of the things that you find that are consistently problematic? That can be things that you you know that maybe you know that you're constantly having these conversations like what are some of those conversations and what are some of the things that you find are helpful solutions for fixing those?
Speaker 2:Okay, great question again. So I'm thinking about, apart from in-laws being one of the major issues for most families, what we hear is gender roles.
Speaker 3:As I think Chet mentioned that.
Speaker 2:And the other is parenting, work, work stress. Parenting is an issue, so especially understanding the two different generations, the generational gap between the immigrants who come here, who were born and raised in a different country and are coming here at a later age, like me and in our 20s, to go for education or marriage and whatever reasons, so versus the generation that they're raising, so that is a big source of conflict within families. So those are some of the things that we come in, so in-laws is usually number one gender roles, work stress and then parenting differences.
Speaker 6:What are some of the things that you help parents? I mean, I'm trying to think how I would approach trying to talk to somebody differences. What are some of the things that you help parents? I'm trying to think how I would approach trying to talk to somebody about that and encourage them. What are some of the things that you find to be helpful to help parents navigate that?
Speaker 2:It's helping them understand that there are two different cultures at clash, two different generations clash and are is understanding what the kids are going through. For example, I have this class that I I actually workshop. That I do often in the library, here and other places. It's called communicating with your teens. Rather, we call it how to get your teens to listen to you. Now, in my culture, if when I started doing this workshop, when I started promoting this workshop in the South Asian community, I made the mistake once, or actually started with how to have effective conversations with your teens, I don't think I got too many people. Maybe, maybe about 20 people showed up. As soon as I changed it to how to get your teens to listen to you, I had 80 people standing room only.
Speaker 2:So, I was like, and this was this tiny room in the library and that workshop still packs, though I think the core of the workshop is how to communicate, in other words, with your teens, if you want to, is how to communicate, in other words with your teens if you want to, is how to listen to them, because I work with kids and teens and that's one of the things they talk about. Our parents don't listen to us because they have their expectations. Being the first generation immigrants here, our objective is study, earn, start a family, buy a house, put the kids in a private school or in a nice school, definitely in a nice college, a whole bunch of different activities so they can get into all the wonderful colleges in the in the us and make something of themselves better than us yeah the kids are saying thank you much.
Speaker 2:We don't have that mindset because, guess what, You're already providing for us. So we are not as hungry. So we want to do art, we want to do music, we want to travel the world, we want to have a job, quit and do something else. And the parents are like, oh my God, what's wrong with my child? Nothing is wrong with your child. You have given them a great cushion, an upbringing. It's not that they won't find their ways. They will find a different path from yours. So that is one of the big issues that come up with my families when it comes to parenting is understanding your child because of the generation, the culture, the space they are in. They're not in India, where you're fighting for scraps. You're not fighting. You're not seeing people eat from the garbage, which is what we grew up with seeing.
Speaker 2:So you understand the value of food, you're going to clean your plate, but when there's food that's abundant, you're not going to clean your plate because you haven't experienced that. So one of the things that we work on is working with the parents understand and trying to see things from their lenses, understanding the different cultures and value systems that are at clash To be good parents I'm not saying being the best parent or perfect parent, because there's no such things, but being good parents is learning to listen that's really good.
Speaker 6:yeah, that's really good, I think, and I think that when you almost going back to like the leave it the beaver, you know this is, this is a a snapshot of what the majority culture was like in the us, you know, back in the whenever that was 60s, 70s, I can't remember but, um, but you go back to that. I think that in some ways, some ways, because we're in a time frame when there's cultures changing and shifting and being influenced by, we didn't have the access to seeing things across the world like we do now. We didn't know those things existed and now we have the ability to see everything that's going on and it influences everything that we think and believe and we do, whereas, you know you might, 50 years ago in India, it might have been very clear what your future was going to be.
Speaker 6:What you were going to do. There was no question. Like the amount of you know, flexibility with your future might have been a. So you know, some total of 15 percent. Fifteen percent of your life is not quite determined, but the other 85 percent.
Speaker 1:all change after CNN and MTV Right. You know, started blasting from satellites, and that's exactly right.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I mean even to that. You remember, I remember going to Albania. I went to Albania about 20. I guess it was about 25 years ago, 20, 25 years ago, and it was. They had just, you know, communism had just fallen. It's very closed, very, very different, but they were listening and watching. They were watching television and movies from America that were made, you know, 20, 30 years earlier and everybody was dressing like them. So you would go there and they would expect you're an American coming and I'm coming in my you know whatever, my car hearts and my you know whatever it is, and they're dressed like somebody out of the 70s and I'm like what in the world? And it's like because that's the you. So so it's not. You know, you start seeing that in different places as soon as cnn, mtv, all those places, all like it starts starts opening up a whole world, right?
Speaker 1:the gap between when the information would transfer for it took like 10, 15 years for those movies to make it over was like 15 days, right. Michael jackson was a hit, right, that's right.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I, I think that's, I think that's right. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's really fascinating and I do think that it is something uh, I think that the recovery time of the things I say it that way, I'm making that terminology up on the spot here but that recovery time of that, you know, over adjustment, or that adjustment to one thing or another, because you know, even even for me, even for me, I didn't come from a different country, but I was born in Wisconsin, grew up in a farming community, I spent a lot of my time influenced by a farming life. My family was not well off, we lived in very poor conditions most of my life growing up, and I was the oldest of six kids and I had a lot of responsibilities that you know were on my shoulders, that a lot of people don't have, and I'll say this more specifically because this is where I'm getting at by saying that I had a lot of responsibilities and a certain kind of situation that my son does not have. We now live in California. We now live in a much nicer house than I've ever lived. This is the nicest house I've probably ever lived in in my life, and we have a lot of things at our fingertips that I never would have even imagined having To the point.
Speaker 6:You were saying when I grew up, we cleaned our plate because you didn't know if we were going to have food for the next meal. And now my son's like I'm not hungry and I'm like if you only knew what my mom would have said to you, if you only knew what my dad would have said to you, if you would have said that you know. But then it's like do I look at? And then I have to look at that and say is what my mom said to me or my dad said to me, was it the right thing? I think maybe in the moment it was the right thing, maybe it was right.
Speaker 6:But should I be putting that expectation on my son, who's basically saying you know, I don't want to be overfed, I don't want to be over, you know. And so then it's just like for me as a parent, I'm trying to like figure that out and say how do I work around? How do I deal with this? What is the right answer? So maybe I need to come to your workshops and figure out. He's not a teenager yet, but I could use some help figuring out how to talk to him and how to listen to him Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And you're talking about culture and generational clash, Cultural clash. The culture was so different when you grew up I mean the space that we grew up on a farm where food was scarce and it was difficult. There were hardships. He's not going to know that. Because, you gave him a really good, smooth, comfortable life and if you expect him to relate and react the same way as you did, he's not going to.
Speaker 2:Because it's so different for him. Same note this is what I tell the parents. I think that's an excellent example and thank you for sharing that. You know being so candid about this, because this is what parents like don't understand often. Why is my child so different? Your child? What your child is going through is very normal, given their circumstances, given the environment they're in. You know MTV and YouTube and Reels and don't forget like. Snapchat and. Tiktok. And what's the other one Insta?
Speaker 1:How can you forget Insta? My kids are starting to lead an Insta life.
Speaker 2:It's not on.
Speaker 1:Insta. It's not real. It's right. It's a very different world and just generations here.
Speaker 2:You know, like you said things at your fingertip yeah you didn't have that yeah, access to internet. That's right, it's like you can have computers which are phones, which are smarter than computers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, yeah so one thing I wanted to mention is that, um, I'm in a unique position, so I consider myself not second generation and not first generation generation 1.5 because I came here early enough right that most of my formation has been in the us okay but I have very vivid memories of the young me living in India in that lifestyle, with those requirements or, you know, expectations of me. So when I hear the first-gen parents preaching to their kids, I get it.
Speaker 1:You know, I lived it right, but I also grew up here. I went to junior high, high school, college, grad school, so I know that life as well and it's like what are your parents saying that's effed up dude, yeah, absolutely. But I can also tell them hey look, this is where they're coming from.
Speaker 2:This is what they live through.
Speaker 1:This is the only path forward. They knew and what they're doing is out of you know, the love for you, their way to treat you in the best way possible that they know.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I'm interested. I'm interested because before we started recording, you started talking about cross cultures and being able to like analyze that and interpret those things. I am curious because I do know a bit about cross cultures and so at least I've I've talked with people who know things and I've studied a little bit of myself. But I'm so the Western culture, american American mindset's more of a guilt innocence culture. You know, am I right or wrong? You're wrong, I'm right, that sort of thing. And so we approach things from. You know, am I right or wrong? You're wrong, I'm right, that sort of thing. And so we approach things from.
Speaker 6:You know, if you're late, if you said you were going to be here at three o'clock and you showed up at 305, you're late, well, that's not necessarily the way that, like a culture that comes from like more of a shame honor system would approach it.
Speaker 6:You know there's not necessarily a right or wrong, it's not necessarily. You know there's not a hard line on that. Um, but I guess my question is this and we I'm sure there's a lot could be said about, like the, the pros and cons of, like a guilt innocence culture versus a honor shame culture, um, but I'm just wondering, like with that 1.5 or with the you know first generation, you know that grew up in india, or from any country for that matter, and then the second generation growing up in the united states, you know, you have the influences of like those sorts of things, the right, wrong versus honor, shame, or even like the second generation. Um, I don't know, I'm just I'm curious how that impact and the influences that they, that in the way that they, that people see whether it's right, wrong versus honor, shame maybe in um.
Speaker 1:In the older generation the reputation reputation of the family, you know mattered a lot and influenced um how they behaved, what they expected of their parents, what they hid about their parents and what they promoted about their children. Right and um, the younger generation is like what do I care what my aunt or you know, that some neighbor or some buddy in the temple or church thinks about me? I gotta live my own life. My, my, uh. You know homies are good with what I'm doing. I'm getting all the likes I want on.
Speaker 2:That's right insta and facebook loves me, so I'm killing it, yeah, so that's the dichotomy. Yeah, yeah, well so that comes from, I think, what I mentioned earlier about the individualistic versus the collectivist cultures. In a collectivist culture, shame and honor are important because, like Chet said, it's not about the individual, it's about the entire family oh, that's interesting. Yeah, yes, versus the right or wrong being here on time.
Speaker 2:You know it's very individualistic yeah your basic needs are met individually you are able to meet your basic needs individually in western societies because the resources are plenty. That is not true in many south asian countries and other countries as well yeah, and.
Speaker 2:And so where there is a collective, there is a need for the collective to ensure the survival of the most. So the shame and honor comes in, because shame is a great motivator, guilt and shame, as I've had many people tell me. Oh, my parents ruled me by guilt and shame and I was like, dude, I totally get that. Guess what, been there, done that. And our sons are great. My older son is amazing with his boundaries and he's like mom, you're guilting me. Oh, yes, sorry, but no to myself not do that again that's funny but the cultural learnings are so deep.
Speaker 2:you know that even as a therapist i've've had to be, I've had him, he's had to correct me and point it out, and that's like whoa, I got to be more mindful of what I'm doing. So that is, I'm sorry.
Speaker 6:No, no, I was just going to. I was going to say kind of in response to that, though I mean I can imagine that there are pros again, pros and cons to both mindsets. So it could be that, like I would say that even just recently I was talking to a group of people that I'm helping to lead and there's a mixture of people who are you know, who are clearly, you know, Caucasian Americans, and then there's a bunch that are from all over the world, including a lot of countries that would be considered more of an honor shame society, and I was talking to them about the and I brought this up about you know what it means to be late or on time or whatever, because I, I don't, I don't, I'm not on time the way that I ought to be, sometimes um, but um, but I can, I I've been around a society most of my life where it's like when you're late, you need to, you need. You know, you're the one that's in the wrong, you're the one that needs to fix it, you know. But then we were one that's in the wrong, you're the one that needs to fix it, you know. But then we were talking about there are some people who are like they were talking about.
Speaker 6:What does it mean to start on time? And for a certain culture, like the guilt, innocence culture, it was like the way that you show honor and respect, the way that you show like you know people that you care, is that you start on time, right. But then there's other people that you don't start until certain people, the most honored people, are there. You can't start until everyone shows up, and especially the people that matter the most you know grandpa or grandmother, or mom and dad or whatever.
Speaker 6:And I was telling them.
Speaker 6:I think that you know I said to this group that I'm helping to lead. I said neither one of them are right, neither one of them are correct. I mean I'm using the right-wrong paradigm there. But I said what we need to do is we need to show consideration toward one another and even love toward each other, and say, yeah, I want to be considerate of the people that are more honor-shame focused and say, yeah, I want to be considered to the people that are more honor shame focused. And so we need to recognize that we don't want to start till you get here, because we do care about you, but at the same time, there's people who've been here for 20 minutes before the time because they were expecting us to start on time. And if we start 20 minutes late because there's a bunch of people not showing up on time, then we need to respect them as well and we need to say, okay, I need to work hard to try to be here closer to the start time that was predetermined so that I'm not so anyway.
Speaker 6:I don't know. I think it's just like an ongoing working conversation that needs to happen and I can see how that affects the group that I'm leading and we're not necessarily related, but I can see how that can be a challenging dynamic to deal with within a family parents to kids or whatever.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think you're a very good example, especially around timing. I think that you're bringing up in a lot of collectivist culture. You're absolutely right. Everybody waits for the people who are important, the elders usually. It's usually the elders Also. I was going to say there's also a logistical challenge Transportation.
Speaker 6:Right, that's right yeah.
Speaker 2:How are you going to get there on time? Transportation is an issue.
Speaker 6:Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:Times become stretchable, and also the boundaries. You know that you're talking about boundaries. Okay, you come at 10 and then you've got to be done by 12. Those don't exist in those cultures.
Speaker 1:Here we're kind of trained. You know, our school system is it's a nine o'clock class. You have like 9.05 and you're tardy. You do that too many times. That means you got to run faster.
Speaker 6:That's right Get your act together.
Speaker 1:You're clearly not showing respect to your teacher Speaking of shame and guilt.
Speaker 6:I'm going to be guilty of being late for my wife here in a few minutes.
Speaker 1:This is not rushing us off.
Speaker 6:But we've been having it's funny, I'm looking at the time been having. I it's it's funny Like I'm looking at the time marker on on our interview and it's like we just hit an hour and I was like how did that happen?
Speaker 1:You guys. This has been an awesome conversation. Yeah, I've enjoyed it very much, yeah.
Speaker 6:Clean way to kind of wrap it down. I was going to say if we really wanted to, and I think that'd be super fun, but if people wanted to know more about what you're doing and if they are interested in hearing more of you because I find what you're saying to be extremely fascinating, and just the fact that this is something that you regularly practice as you help people walk through this yourself, what are some ways that people can find out more about you and find out what you're doing? Maybe hear more of what you're doing the workshops. How can we find out all about all that?
Speaker 2:So absolutely Best way to contact me is through my website, which is shalinimftcom. I have my phone number and it's 510-612-6471. That's a direct one. I also have a nonprofit, basanth and now and which Chet and I we run together and we co-founded and we run, so we provide that and the workshops are through there to the communities.
Speaker 6:How would you define the non-profit again?
Speaker 1:So, it's called basantnoworg, so B-A-S-A-N-T now. N-o-w dot org and a lot of the workshops we've done have been at the Fremont Main Library, okay, and they're free and open to anyone and everyone.
Speaker 6:And they're focused on the things that we've been talking about. We did a whole series on parenting.
Speaker 1:Okay, We've done others on relationships and so, yeah, it's great Stress.
Speaker 2:I mean anxiety, depression, mental health, because the objective is to demystify and also take away the shame around mental health. So yes, I mean people can find us. Uh, I think if you google my name, my phone number will show up awesome and best way to contact me and I think then if there's a question for chet, I can always let him know that's great so, but he has his own site as well okay, so, and you, you said you did coaching, right, yeah, life coaching yeah, so I'm chetdalecoachingcom is my website so
Speaker 1:and yeah I'm not a licensed psychologist, but more of a life coach for people um who are transitioning from a career to another career or another stage in life, or just trying to improve their well-being.
Speaker 6:That's great, that's awesome. Well, I've really enjoyed getting to talk to you guys, it's good to meet you guys and I'm glad, I'm thankful for what you're doing in our Fremont community. I think these are the kinds of things that we number one, the community needs to know about, and number two, I think that we benefit from it.
Speaker 2:We don't even realize it sometimes, so really, uh, really grateful for what you're doing and glad that you got to be on the podcast here. Oh, thank you for having us. Yes, thank you, and we'll make sure that we put all the information that you gave us in the show notes, so people will be able to find that.
Speaker 6:Absolutely thank you try to find it themselves.
Speaker 2:So thank you guys.
Speaker 6:Oh, thank you yes oh, one more thing I should say. You said you had a podcast too, right? Yes, so the podcast? Is that connected with your non-profit, or where does the podcast?
Speaker 2:yeah, it is so there's a whole library of podcasts we've done in the past on different topics, okay, related to mental health, and they're all accessible from the basant now, okay, and my site as well, I think on my site as well and we have a YouTube channel that and yes so yeah, so most of the topics, and actually all the topics, are about mental health, some different aspects, because we have I interview a whole bunch of clinicians, different kinds you know, so anybody who is interested, who is a clinician and wants to come and talk on my podcast.
Speaker 6:I'll interview them just like you do. We'll put a link on the podcast here as well.
Speaker 2:Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 3:This episode was hosted and produced by Ricky B. I'm Gary Williams, Andrew Kvet is the editor. Scheduling and pre-interviews by Sarah S. Be sure to subscribe wherever it is that you listen so you don't miss an episode. You can find everything we make, the podcast and all of our social media links at thefremontpodcastcom. Join us next week on the Fremont Podcast.
Speaker 5:This is a Muggins Media Podcast.