Ep 76 But What is Heaven? - Exploring the Real Vivid Depictions of Heaven Throughout the Bible

Discover how heaven is woven into the very fabric of our faith and what awaits us beyond this earthly life. My wife Selena and I, along with Pastor David Squyres, invite you to a heartfelt discussion that traverses the landscapes of time and eternity. We journey through the cultural and historical contexts of biblical figures and stories, offering a perspective that could reshape your understanding of the scriptures. 

This episode is a profound contemplation of eschatology, where we dissect the mysteries surrounding the afterlife and heaven's role within Christian doctrine. Pastor Squyres lends his theological expertise as we discuss five diverse viewpoints on what happens after death, and how a genuine grasp of heaven can shift our earthly priorities. We'll also provide comfort by addressing common fears and misconceptions about death and the afterlife, highlighting the hope and love that a correct understanding of heaven can bring.

Finally, we paint a vivid picture of heaven through a biblical lense—depicting it as a grand city, a joyous banquet, a majestic throne room, and an intimately prepared home. We delve into the promise of eternal life and how Jesus's assurances offer us a steadfast hope for what lies beyond. 

Join us as we reflect on the certainty of a heavenly dwelling place prepared by Christ himself, and don't forget to tune in next week as we continue down the rabbit hole.

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Transcript

Imran: 0:05

Hello and welcome to Real Bible Stories. Join us as we deep dive into the historic, religious, cultural, political and emotional context surrounding the real lives of real people in the Bible and the stories we've all grown to love. Hello and welcome back to Real Bible Stories. I'm your host, emron Ward, and we are joined by my wife, selena.

Selena: 0:28

Hey.

Imran: 0:29

We're your teacher for this week, pastor David Squires. Hello, so we've been going down the rabbit hole with the story behind the story, which is really just real Bible stories at its absolute core and really taking apart the Bible and trying to tease out some of the nuance of different characters and different concepts within the Word, and it's been an absolute journey for me. I will also include that it has also been an absolute journey at work right now. So I'm sorry these episodes have been coming out slower as I'm grinding through all of my day-to-day stuff, but we will get it all out there to you all, at least at the most every week, and then sometimes I'm delayed if it's not every week, but that's on me, I'm working it. But this week, what's your work? Tell them what you do. Oh, they know what I do. I talk about it all the time. I take care of everyone's the mothers what do you call it?

Pastor David: 1:26

The sons and daughters of America, the Emirates and Marine Captain, you've got a cool job.

Imran: 1:31

The world's greatest babysitter. The world's most combat train babysitter.

Pastor David: 1:34

I know you guys have all your little lines that demean what you do. You eat crayons. I know I hear it all. No, it's pretty awesome.

Imran: 1:41

Yeah, so I guess my job right now is to be the company executive officer of my company, the headquarters company within my battalion here at the schoolhouse. So I wear a lot of hats. In addition to that, so day to day I'm mostly managing the Marines awaiting training population, so that's anywhere between 300 and 400 Marines at any given point, and I'm also managing our maintenance section and our logistics section as the OIC for them and I write on and want to say write on. I manage the personnel of a couple other sections within the battalion as well and it's just a lot of different hats. It's like we're having a personnel shortage and so I've accumulated more responsibility on my plate to allow the instructors to have more of the time and space to be instructors.

Imran: 2:27

Because when I was an instructor for two years, anytime company or battalion came over the top and was like I need you to do this thing in addition to instruction, it really robbed the my students from the time I could have spent with them. So I in turn, now that I'm in a position of leadership and a position of influence, I try to take on more of that stuff myself or push it back to battalion or company to do and try to take as much as I can off of the plate of the instructor, because I think that that is our ticket to success, and so that's kind of just my big push. So taking care of Marines is the name of the game at every level, especially within the officer's community. So yeah, that's what I do.

Pastor David: 3:09

I almost said amen like we're in church Amen, amen. Yeah, I mean this is an affirmation agreement.

Imran: 3:15

It's preach Marine preach.

Imran: 3:17

I was giving some feedback to the it's like my last class of students that I had. They had done this big brief and I was giving them feedback of like how they could articulate their point more clearly, how they could engage with people in the audience. Eye contact, helping people, like making people stay awake by doing little things, like you know, walking up towards them while you're speaking because, like there's these subconscious things that happen in your head and you're like someone's coming towards me, the person that's in charge of me is coming towards me, or stuff like that. And I was going on and telling my story and my big voice, your teaching voice kind of way, and at the end I asked my peers that were my co-instructors you know how was that and one of them said it's like man, you were preaching.

Imran: 3:58

That was how he described it, he was like man when you get going. Man, you were preaching.

Pastor David: 4:02

See, I was a preacher. I like that the height of public speaking is to preach.

Imran: 4:06

Yeah, exactly Like that was his the highest compliment he had. He was like.

Pastor David: 4:09

Only you weren't delivering the word of God, you were delivering the word of the Marine Corps.

Imran: 4:12

Exactly, or just how to be better officers. That's it. That's what I was.

Pastor David: 4:17

I know we're going to get to our subject in just a minute. It is kind of cool we tape on the Marine base and it's kind of cool that we come driving on every week onto a Marine base, which is awesome.

Imran: 4:28

Absolutely.

Pastor David: 4:29

You forget how awesome it is because you live here, work here, but this is a cool base Right over those hills. Over there there's maneuvers happening that will defend the United States and our forces.

Imran: 4:41

And it's been doing it for a couple hundred years. This is actually a huge monument right off base here, because this base used to be bigger.

Imran: 4:47

It used to extend maybe another 20, 30 miles up to 62. And there's a monument. I rode my motorcycle out to that monument and it says on there that first Marine division trained here, second Marine division, and that's where they used to do division size exercises with the Army, and so the Army gave the base to the Marines and we scaled it back because obviously we don't need to do division on division really level operations because we don't have that many people in the Marine Corps, not like the Army employees, like five or six times amount of people we do.

Imran: 5:17

but it's crazy to think that, like all of that during World War two, vietnam era, was, was, was being used as well. All that empty desert.

Pastor David: 5:26

The Army abandoned 29 palms. Yeah, it's not habitable.

Imran: 5:29

And so the Marine.

Pastor David: 5:30

Corps is like we could torture people here.

Imran: 5:32

Exactly, and now because of had it ever since, like the last 50 or 60 years.

Pastor David: 5:36

It's perfect. It's perfect for training for desert warfare. What?

Imran: 5:38

are we talking about? Oh man, we are in fact, the podcast about, about our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ. So, getting back to the, getting back to the point we are going to be talking this week about, instead of a person, a concept, so the concept of heaven as described in the Bible. We I bet you all have these different ideas in your head of what heaven is, what it's going to be, what it looks like. You know who you're going to see, what you're going to do, what can you be able to do, what are you not going to be able to do? And so the question is like, the more interesting question that I have is like well, what are the limitations of my ability to do things in heaven? All right, it's like, well, there's no sin. It's like, well, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot there that I've always had questions about and, to a certain extent, I'll say that I have a lot of anxiety about. We've seen, I've seen me have like panic attacks about, like, what's next?

Pastor David: 6:33

The afterlife is such an important topic that we're going to spend multiple weeks talking about heaven and what is heaven and what's the new earth, and what does the Bible actually tell us.

Imran: 6:45

Well, I'm excited to go through that and if you know, if I have a panic attack, we'll just cut that out. No one will ever know.

Pastor David: 6:49

They won't know, they won't know, they won't know. Captain Ward was flat on the.

Imran: 6:57

It's like the concept of going to war and doing all the things that we're going to do has never freaked me out. I think it's super cool, but the the finality of life and the level of faith that's required is if, if I have faith that when I pull the trigger my gun's going to work and it's like I know, I need to have that same faith in my, in what comes after this life, because that's guaranteed.

Selena: 7:19

Yeah.

Imran: 7:19

All right, that's like eventually going to happen. And have a bully, that's going to happen, unless you know the rapture happens, scott, because back and he takes me up directly, it's like but it's going to happen, and there's a lot of at least for me, a lot of anxiety. That's there and I know other people struggle with that too.

Pastor David: 7:32

We're looking tonight at really the first glimpse you're going to have of heaven. What are some of the first things you're going to see when you step in from this body into glory? What is it you're going to see? And we're just taking a look at some different views of the end and within what Jesus says. But if you, if you have a Bible John 14, selena is going to read this. John 14, one to six is phenomenal.

Selena: 7:59

Do not let your heart be troubled. You believe in God. Believe also in me. My father's house has many rooms. If that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I'm going. Thomas said to him Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way? Jesus answered I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my father as well From now on. You do. You do know him and have seen him.

Pastor David: 8:45

The doctrine of heaven falls into a section of what we call doctrinally eschatology. Eschatology is the study of last things, so eschatology would include that's a cool word, isn't it?

Selena: 8:56

The study of last things.

Pastor David: 8:58

It belongs on a podcast about real Bible stories Eschatology.

Imran: 9:01

Oh my gosh.

Pastor David: 9:02

So we're about to do a whole series on eschatology Okay, Love it which would include heaven, hell, the second coming, the resurrection of the dead. It would include the rapture, the tribulation, the millennium, the end of the world, the judgment, new heaven, new earth. All of those things are part of what we define as eschatology. That's what it is, that section of of scripture. So what we're doing is we're going to be looking at questions like you know what's the future of heaven? What happens? Is heaven just always the same, or is there something coming? What are you going to see first? What's your new body going to be like? What happens when a child dies? What's our relationship when we get to?

Imran: 9:39

heaven with each other. We're going to answer all those questions. I just sound like we could all fit that in this one episode. No no no, we're doing this for a while. Oh, okay, I'm like, oh my, that's a lot.

Pastor David: 9:46

Yeah, that's a lot of questions that people definitely have. Like, here's going to be a question you guys will have is so, when we get to heaven, emirate and Selena, are you guys married or are you? I mean, what's your relationship?

Imran: 9:56

It's said till death, do us part, and so I assume we're not married, actually, remember we'll do a whole podcast on it Okay. So, yeah, we'll save it till then. Yeah, but let's look at this.

Pastor David: 10:06

Talking about that what I hope happens. I hope out of this you just fall more in love with Jesus. I hope that out of this you fall a little bit out of love with this world. This world's going to burn and that the thought of heaven and the theology of heaven isn't just a static thing. That's out there, that okay, now I understand heaven better. I hope you're understanding of heaven, what's your appetite, and you become thirsty and hungry for heaven and out of that you're like well, I can't wait to see, jesus, that you fall a little deeper in love with the, with the Lord. Out of this, I love that.

Imran: 10:37

All right. So what's our first point?

Pastor David: 10:39

What happens when we die? Good theology.

Imran: 10:42

That's an aggressive first point.

Pastor David: 10:43

It is aggressive, isn't it All right?

Imran: 10:45

It used to be how they're going to start with. What's heaven? No, no, no. Well, what happens when you? It's how it's how we used to introduce the gospel to people.

Pastor David: 10:51

When you knock on doors, be like if you were to die today. Do you know? Like whoa we just met.

Imran: 10:57

It's like, do I know where I'd go? It's like I don't even know what I have for breakfast this morning. What are we talking about right now?

Pastor David: 11:02

A good theology removes fear. And when you, when we're honest about it, a lot of people are scared of death. We're scared of the fact that we are mortal. In fact, hebrews, chapter two, verse 15, says that Jesus died to free those who, all their lives, were held in the slavery to the fear of death.

Imran: 11:21

There's actually a. I don't know if he's just a multimillionaire, a billionaire, but I'll get his name by the end of the podcast but he, he is dedicated. Once he sold his business and got his like hundred million or whatever, he has dedicated his entire, the entirety of his wealth, to living as long as possible. That's right and that is and that is his stated goal is finding out how to basically live forever, because he's scared of death.

Pastor David: 11:45

But it's not just that people are scared of death, which is true. They're scared. They're kind of scared of heaven. They're scared that heaven's going to be boring or, you know, scared that there's going to be hanging out on a cloud. Our cultural pictures of heaven have not encouraged people so they've not given a lot of hope. We're scared that we're going to get to heaven. It's just a long church service.

Imran: 12:04

Like a thousand year church service. Yeah, like I.

Pastor David: 12:07

Well, okay, I don't want to go and people kind of joke like why'd rather hang out in the hell where there's a party than heaven.

Pastor David: 12:14

You know, some people have deeper fears. They're scared of dying and standing before God scared, so there's just a fear of death. I do love what Hebrews said Jesus died to set free all those who are held in slavery to the fear of death. You don't have to be enslaved to this. This is good doctrine. Some views just what I got here about five, five views of what happens when we die. Number one view is what we call eternal oblivion, or cessation, that you just cease to exist. You're like a candle, that just and you're out.

Imran: 12:46

Yeah, you. Just I think it's like the big, the atheist perspective.

Pastor David: 12:49

It is.

Imran: 12:50

It's your biological creature, and so when your biology ends, that's the end of that Secular humanism goes that same route, or nihilism.

Pastor David: 12:59

What's nihilism I?

Imran: 13:00

think nihilism is worse than that, because so nihilism is not that when I die I just die. It's that because when I die, I just die. Therefore, nothing I do today has any impact or matters at all.

Pastor David: 13:15

Exactly.

Imran: 13:15

And so nihilism kind of goes into, like I can take advantage of who I want, and I should take advantage of who and what I can, because it's all about me, because nothing else matters except me.

Selena: 13:29

Why are you not even?

Imran: 13:29

except me it's just nothing Like I don't even matter. So, therefore, why are you even bothering me about it?

Selena: 13:33

Yeah, Kind of reminds me of the movie we watched recently Everything, Everything everywhere all at once.

Imran: 13:40

Yeah, where the villain is like nothing matters yeah, so that's an interesting point, because the whole point of that movie is the it's two. It's two women who have the ability to see all versions of reality at the same time, and one of them comes to the conclusion is that because anything is possible, it nothing matters. Like I could very well, anything I do could go any way and does go any way, because all possibilities exist at the same time. Therefore nothing matters. And the other one is like well, because everything that I do can lead to any other reaction and will lead to any other reaction than everything that I do matters.

Selena: 14:19

Wow, so it's these two extremes that that yeah, so this movie called everything, everywhere, all at once.

Pastor David: 14:26

Wow.

Imran: 14:26

It's a fantastic thought. It's on the surface. It's a really like kooky movie, but on the subsurface it has an extremely good psychological discussion of like you can choose to care or not.

Pastor David: 14:38

You know those movies where you don't really get it where you're watching it. You have to leave the theater and an hour later, where you're eating, you're like.

Imran: 14:44

Oh, that was deep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pastor David: 14:48

So number one view out there that's actually popular today is that there's nothing when you die. You just cease to exist. Yeah, another view this is popular among Catholics in particular as purgatory that you don't go to heaven or hell when you die. You go to a place between the places, and purgatory is the place where you pay for your sins. So you go there and nobody goes immediately to heaven or hell or hell.

Pastor David: 15:13

You go to purgatory, and in purgatory in fact you hear it in the word purge purgatory you're purged of your sins. So for thousands and thousands and thousands of years you're there being tortured. And then the idea became, especially in the middle ages well, if you're good, and especially if you pay the church money, you can take time off of purgatory.

Imran: 15:33

Yeah.

Pastor David: 15:33

And so if you do these things for the saints, if you kind of torture yourself on earth, you remove the torture in the next life.

Imran: 15:39

It also carried.

Imran: 15:40

So I'm just bringing up what my chaplain, when I was deployed he was Catholic would talk about like you, your family, like once you died and you're in that purgatory, your family can pay as well to reduce it's like, hey, this is going to reduce the time on your mother's purgatory time, or you could pray to the saints and they'll intercede on your behalf and they can reduce that time as well, because they'll go and talk with Jesus and God about your mom's situation or your dad's situation and reduce that time. So it wasn't just things you did, it was also you could influence your families or your friends.

Selena: 16:19

How did that even come to be Like? Is it just purely money driven?

Pastor David: 16:26

It is the fear of telling people hey, heaven and hell are real. Well. What if we created an in-brew team place like a wedding room and it does kind of keep you good, you don't want to go. If we tell everybody they're going to heaven then they might be bad on earth, and so what if we created an in-between place where you're going to be punished? The problem with that is it's anti-gospel.

Imran: 16:43

The gospel is not that it probably merges with other old things, other old religions, and they didn't just listen to what Jesus said to you.

Pastor David: 16:49

but I'd have to explore that the gospel is not that I go to purgatory and pay for my sins. The gospel is that Jesus died on the cross and he paid for my sins, so there's nothing left for me to pay for. Yeah, what would I pay for in purgatory? So it's really a reversal of the gospel that now you have to, by behavior, be good or we're going to send you this place, purgatory, and you're going to be tortured and it creates a merit system.

Imran: 17:15

Which flies in the face of God dying for your sins in the first place? It does, doesn't it?

Pastor David: 17:20

Another view is called reincarnation, which is more of an Eastern thought. Very, very popular. Multiple religions follow reincarnation.

Imran: 17:27

Does Buddhist follow reincarnation it?

Pastor David: 17:29

does Most Eastern religions follow some. And you can mix those. Those Eastern religions often mix together, but they follow it.

Imran: 17:39

That's true, because it's like Jews, where it's like a people and a religion.

Pastor David: 17:42

I would ask if, if reincarnation is real, if you come back, it would require a God above it all organizing that mess. Who's organizing it? Who decides who goes where what? Souls come out, wouldn't that require a God that's overseas. Somebody has to oversee the afterlife.

Selena: 17:57

Yeah, there has to be a judge If there's a judge.

Pastor David: 18:00

The judge did speak up and he did not tell us there was reincarnation. There's a book called the Count of Monte Cristo where this guy's digging out of his prison cell and so he's digging, digging, digging, he finally gets a hole, he drops and he just goes, he drops into another prison cell and that's kind of reincarnation, like you die and you just come back here, back to the prison.

Imran: 18:20

It doesn't offer a lot of hope, but you can come back as like an aunt, or you can be really really good and come back as like a bird or something like that. Like I think that's the logic. It's like be really good here and your chakras are aligned and all this stuff and you'll be able to come back.

Pastor David: 18:35

It connects to another faith system which is actually devil worship, Satan worship. I had a friend, his name's Pete. He was out on the battlefield. This is Iraq. This guy is all shot up. He goes into the tent to see to his friend and he goes I've heard you're a devil worshiper, so what do you guys believe? And the guy who's shot up goes. Well, we believe that if we serve Satan well on earth, that he'll let us come back. And Pete said I couldn't help it.

Pastor David: 19:03

I look at this guy, all bloodied up, he's got bullets in him, shrapnel in him. It wasn't good, he said. I looked at him and I just went dude, you want to come back to this? Is there a better opening for the gospel? This is it. You're going to serve Satan to come back here and get shot up again? Yeah, that's wild, yeah. Another view is called soul sleep and it's the idea that the soul, when you die, your soul just kind of passes out at sleeps until the second coming of Jesus, and so when Jesus comes again, he raises the dead and your souls are brought back.

Pastor David: 19:37

So then there's no heaven, there's just the new earth at that point Correct, that there's no present heaven, that the that. Well, there's heaven that God's in in that view, and there's the angels.

Imran: 19:45

But the dead do not go to heaven, they just rest and heaven's in the face of us petitioning from beneath the throne imagery that's in Revelation it does Revelation, chapter six, very good.

Selena: 19:57

Thank you, I pay attention, I'm proud of you.

Imran: 20:01

Yeah, you've been working on me for like two and a half years. I hope I learned something.

Pastor David: 20:06

What Jesus promised us was eternal life, which is life without end or life without a pause. It's not. Hey, I'll give you eternal life. Pause. Eternal life, you have salvation. Pause, you'll be dead for a while, and then that's not the promise, that eternal life is life without end, which is what Jesus offered to me and to you. So, yeah, I love that. I'm trying. I've not wanted to skip the story that you were excited about.

Imran: 20:33

Oh, what With my buddy? Yeah, oh, the Nihilus. Oh, I'm. Yeah, you're right, sorry.

Imran: 20:37

So I was telling him that I was going to tell him about my buddy, who was a, who was a Nihilus and an Atheist in college, and we would. But the reason I brought him up is we would go back and forth about Christianity all the time and he was extremely well read with the Bible. He just rejected it completely and so but I wasn't that well that well read at all at the time and our back and forth. So it actually challenged me to go and like study my faith and actually gain some more understanding. So it was invigorating in that way.

Imran: 21:07

But at the same time, I never really was able to convince him or change his mind or anything like that, which is not really the intent is just we would have the conversation. I also was not in a good place to be an example for the kingdom either at the time, but he ended up dropping out of our NRTC program and going to be a parole officer for a while and then he ended up getting another job working as a prison guard and as a prison guard. I just found this out like a year, like a year later, after this happened, he got caught up with like dealing drugs in the prison and then they got and he got caught, convicted and went back to that prison.

Pastor David: 21:45

The same prison. He was a guard, yeah, and then I haven't heard from him since.

Imran: 21:49

Oh, it's like that is absolutely insane. I hope he's all right. I hope that was the wake up call and a good chaplain or a pastor finds him in there and works on him, but like man this is like absolutely wild. But yeah, that was his whole perspective like nothing matters and it's like everything that I've read just further proves that none of this matters and I was like that's crazy dude.

Pastor David: 22:10

Wow, four views so far eternal oblivion, purgatory reincarnation, soul sleep. What the Bible teaches is the Bible teaches resurrection into eternal life immediately. And so Luke 22, 40 to 43, jesus was dying on the cross. He was speaking to a thief. The thief made a clear statement of faith Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus said I tell you the truth, this day you'll be with me in paradise. That is, you're gonna move from this cross into heaven. You're not gonna wait, you're not gonna. There's not a soul sleep. You're not gonna go to purgatory. This day you'll be with me in paradise. Sometimes people will put change to the comma on that, and so they read it this way I tell you, this day you'll be in paradise. But I think it's the easiest. The only reason you would put the comma there is you don't want the other side of that to say what it says. So you just like well, if I read it a little different. But the clear meaning is today we are gonna see one another again and it will be in paradise.

Pastor David: 23:17

But that's not the only verse that this doctrine hangs on. Second Corinthians 5a says you see it there, selena.

Selena: 23:24

We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Pastor David: 23:28

So he says to be away from the body isn't to be in the grave, it's not soul sleep, it's not purgatory, paul said. I believe that for me not to be in the body, is to be with the Lord. Yeah, even more important, matthew 22, 32,. Jesus was arguing with Sadducees and he said something obviously brilliant because it's God on earth, but he starts talking to them about right.

Pastor David: 23:51

When you're talking about God on earth, it's gonna be good. He starts talking about Moses at the burning bush. It was just exciting because Jesus was there and he said remember, god said to Moses at the burning bush I am the God of Abraham, isaac and Jacob. His point is that God did not say I was the God of Abraham. He's able to say I am the God of Abraham. The reason he can say that. And then Jesus even said this. He said, therefore, he's not the God of the dead, he's not the God of the living. When Jesus said it, abraham was dead. When Moses was there, abraham was already dead, but God didn't say I was the God of Abraham, because Abraham was already alive and in heaven with God. Jesus point is that at that moment, abraham was alive. Thus, god is the God of Abraham, not was the God of Abraham.

Selena: 24:39

Isn't that brilliant?

Pastor David: 24:39

Yeah, that's good, that's like God on earth. Good, I would never come up with that. That's Jesus.

Imran: 24:45

You don't have to answer this question now, because the Bible talk it all about. Well, what happened to those that died before the promise was given?

Pastor David: 24:53

It does? What does it say? I think that those who died before you're talking about before the cross.

Imran: 25:02

No, no, no before Abraham, like those that died before Abraham was given the original promise, god has always counted faith based on what you understand at that time.

Pastor David: 25:14

So we believe in progressive revelation Interesting the faith that you have at that time to be satisfactory for salvation. And so they had faith, looking forward as best they could. They didn't see all, but they put their faith in God. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. They looked forward to the cross. We look back at the cross. Obviously we can have a greater faith, but for those that were after Adam and Eve, but before Abraham.

Pastor David: 25:42

They did have a promise. They had the promise in Genesis, chapter three, verse 16 or 15, which was the promise that a deliverer would come and rescue them and they had the sacrifice of blood, and already, by Cain and Abel, they're sacrificing their. So they have put their hope in God. It's just throughout the Bible. The hope gets clear and clear and clear as you get closer to Jesus, and then it explodes with clarity, and so we can look back and have a very clear faith.

Pastor David: 26:12

There's a sense that there's a higher expectation on us because so we've been given such a clear view of what salvation is that we believe, as Paul said. Now God commands men everywhere to repent, to put their faith in Christ.

Imran: 26:25

Makes sense, so I can give you all the tools. I've shown you who I am.

Pastor David: 26:29

You already mentioned one of the great views you nailed it, revelation chapter six, is if you don't die and go to heaven, then how are there souls under an altar in?

Imran: 26:38

heaven, yeah, petitioning of what was it? Why do you still allow the? Why so much longer? How much longer before you avenge?

Pastor David: 26:45

our, our blood. Yeah, I wanted to emphasize this, that heaven's a real place. So the verse you read a moment ago Selena, in my father's house are many rooms. The Greek is a topos place in my father's house. Here I go to prepare a topos a place for you, and then he says it again in verse three I'm going to prepare a topos a place for you. We assume physical things are real things In the Bible. Spiritual things are real things. We think the spiritual things it's too. I can't touch it, I can't see it, it can't be real.

Pastor David: 27:23

The Bible says maybe the spiritual things are? Are what's more real than the physical Interesting Right when someone dies? I've been with many people when they died.

Imran: 27:34

That's a reality of pastoral leadership, right.

Pastor David: 27:37

So I've been with many people in many circumstances. When they die, I would say that you are very aware at that moment that there was more to that person. When you see them go from a living being to being a corpse, in those short few minutes that the last breath has breathed, the body dramatically changes. And it's not just that death begins to move into the body. Everything that animated the body disappears. There was more to that person than just the electronics of the eyes. There was more than just the breath going in and out. There was something that animates the human being. That makes us that. You're aware there's more to this than just the flesh. Yeah, you know.

Imran: 28:18

I like that there was a. This would be hard to explain in like 10 seconds, but there was this book that I was reading, the manga that I was reading a long time ago that it went down the rabbit hole of this. Alien race had sufficient technology where they could completely destroy your body and then completely put it back together and you would be biologically unchanged from what you were Completely just take you apart to like a atomic level and then put you back together.

Pastor David: 28:46

That starts like beaming no. No, I mean like you'd be dead.

Imran: 28:50

They killed you and they would put you back together and you would be back to life. And so one of the questions that came up in it that someone asked this alien race, one of the humans asked this alien race was like is there so what is so? Is there a soul? And the alien race responded after they had this back and forth is like well, there is this. When we put for some reason, when we put people back together after doing this to them, they have like point zero, whatever, like some measurable amount of their who they are is gone, and so the thing that they're putting back together is, for some reason, different than the thing that they destroyed, something was lost.

Imran: 29:23

Something was lost when they killed them.

Pastor David: 29:26

That's observable, Like you can sit there and watch somebody die and you're aware like if they were sleeping versus dead, you're aware that something that animated them a moment ago is gone. The corpse is dramatically different than the living being. But we think the physical thing is the real and you realize, well, there was something more real than this physical body that was inside this body. This body was just a container for what was actually real.

Pastor David: 29:51

Yeah, Inside of you, inside of you is more something real than just that body, which is your soul, your, your mean it's weird to think of myself as like a like just blood guts.

Imran: 30:03

That somehow sitting here talking yeah, and it's like how is? How is that?

Pastor David: 30:09

We're deeply aware, we're innately aware that there's more to us.

Imran: 30:12

But we don't think about like, what makes us up and like and what makes up a human being, and like why? How does that come? How does that manifest thought? How does that manifest actions Like?

Pastor David: 30:23

that's very so theologically, we call that the amakyo day, which is that we are made in the image of God and that God breathed soul into us. He breathed life into Adam and he breathed life into us, and so life is the extension. Jesus said I am life, all life is the extension of God. I'll be careful to not become pantheism, but there I didn't say that's.

Selena: 30:48

That's kind of hard for me to conceptualize, because in In heaven we will be spirits but when heaven comes down to earth will gain a physical body again. So we'll be able to do physical, like physical stuff again. But heaven is like how we like playing instruments and worship being, and I don't know, I don't know either because heaven's a spiritual place and yet it does depict physical objects like you said instruments, robes, things like that.

Imran: 31:22

Yeah wait.

Pastor David: 31:24

I I filed that under wait and see. But it's true that the better Is that the to be together the physical and the spiritual, and that's why, at the resurrection of all things, we are returned to spirit, to physical bodies.

Imran: 31:36

I think it's also extremely difficult to describe Spiritual things without relating them to physical things. It's like I think you've preached before of like everything that we've experienced in our life is life under a curse.

Imran: 31:49

Yeah so it's difficult to explain what it was like. And Eden before the fall, because we've never seen water without a curse. It's never seen a line without a curse. You've never. It's like as much as you love your dog, you've never seen your dog not under a curse. That's right, so it's. It's impossible. It's like I know, I think about myself and it's like man. Who would I be as a person if I didn't have to constantly deal with my sinful self, like my own sinful desires?

Pastor David: 32:15

The two, the two beings we have seen that were not under a curse that humans have laid eyes on, are Angels and the Son of God. Angels do not rest under our curse and the Son of God came into our world, but the curse did not, did not afflict him the same way it afflicts us.

Pastor David: 32:33

He was greater than the curse. Some first things we're gonna see when we get to heaven. So like, wow, there's gonna be this great moment I step into heaven, and I just wanted to share, as an opener To these weeks about heaven, what are some of the first things you're gonna see, because I think that's good, like when I open my eyes in heaven, I take a breath, last breath here.

Imran: 32:52

I'll tell you, like the movie, soul picks our soul. It's just a long line of people waiting for not not good judgment.

Imran: 33:00

I was just like that. And then you know, in the movie fall off the side and has this whole thing, but um, but it's like the guy dies and then he's like in a line Going up to and he's like what is that? And they're like it's. It's like, well, I don't know what that is, I don't understand, is not what I thought, and it's like. That's kind of how I feel sometimes. Yeah, am I gonna be in a line waiting to be judged? Let's, let's do better.

Pastor David: 33:23

I hope so. One of the first things you're gonna see is you're gonna see angels. The Bible often speaks of angels carrying us into the presence of God. In fact, luke 16 when a man named Lazarus dies not the Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead, it's the story Jesus is telling. When Lazarus dies, he's carried into the presence of God by the angels, and angels are often mentioned in relation to our death. So I think one of the first things you'll see is angels. It's interesting in 1956, ecuador, nick St and Elliot Were missionaries that were killed in Ecuador by a tribe that nobody had had ever made contact with.

Pastor David: 34:00

The tribe killed them. Later, the tribe was converted to Christianity by the wives and the other members of that missionary team. Wow, and so the same people who lost their husbands, those women, went in and won the tribe to the Lord. The tribe then told the story of having killed the men Jim Elliot and Nick St, and they said that when they died, we heard in the treetops angels feet, god. And they said we looked up and we saw those luminous beans in wow, in the trees. Well, and I think what was happening is, as those missionaries died a martyr's death, their souls were immediately ushered by the angels From earth into heaven. Wow, that's intense. It is, isn't it? Another thing You're gonna see. One of the first things you'll see is not an escalator going I love that image. Or you gave us man that was Pixar. They just think you Pixar. But let's do better. The Bible does better Good. You'll see the gates of the great city, 2nd Peter 1 11. Do you see that, selena?

Selena: 34:59

God will open wide the gates of heaven for you to enter into the eternal kingdom.

Pastor David: 35:05

So we'll see gates. It's one of the things that we're.

Imran: 35:07

I have a question, yeah doesn't I say somewhere else in the Bible that that Jesus talks about. The road to, the road to hell is wide and well paved, and the road to heaven is narrow, yeah, so he's gonna open wide the gates of heaven.

Pastor David: 35:21

This is kind of exciting.

Imran: 35:23

I guess he's just talking about the road. Yeah, that's true.

Pastor David: 35:26

You're gonna see angels, you'll see the gates big gate, you're also gonna see other people, and that's what we look forward to. The Bible talks about a great cloud of witnesses, the idea like in heaven there's all these people, that that that are there. We look forward to seeing them. So John saw in heaven a great multitude of those that had died.

Selena: 35:44

Mm-hmm.

Pastor David: 35:44

There's people that we look forward to seeing. I think there's some special people that you know. I would say that as I get older, heaven get sweeter because there's people that I want to see. I've got grandparents. I want to see my wife died.

Pastor David: 35:59

I absolutely can't wait to see Rebecca you know, and so there's people that it's just sweet to think about. Wow, I can't wait to see them parents, grandparents, your spouse, your teachers. There's an old lady in this church named Doris. I can't wait to see Doris again. There was an old man named Bill van Meter. I can't wait to see them. I.

Imran: 36:18

I think one of the things that makes Heaven special is we're going to see those people from Earth again, and they're not glory, but in their honor, I guess, the honors that they've displayed upon them, there's a little bit of glory that goes with that, I mean only God bears eternal glory, but he will honor them.

Pastor David: 36:36

You're also going to see heroes of the faith, moses, elijah, the apostles. By the way, when you go meet the apostles, be sure to meet Judas, not that Judas. So hold on. There were two disciples, I'm not kidding. There were two disciples named Judas. There was Judas who betrayed Jesus.

Imran: 36:53

Judas is scary.

Pastor David: 36:54

And then there was another guy in the Bible named Judas not a scary. That's his name, judas, not as scary. You know when they were writing the Bible and he's like, look, be sure to tell people I'm not going to betray Jesus. They're like, oh, we're putting it in there. Like where do you writing Not as scary? It could come up with any. You could have put my last name in there. No, we're just going to call you the one who didn't betray Jesus. Nice, we know almost nothing about it. Can you imagine you get to heaven. There's a big line to see Peter, big line to see Thomas. I'm going over there to meet Judas, not a scary.

Imran: 37:25

Absolutely. He's got some stories.

Pastor David: 37:28

I love who you're looking forward to seeing Selena. This gets easier as you get older.

Selena: 37:37

Yeah, I was like the only actual like close death would be my grandma, but at that point she was a little bit cookie already. She had Alzheimer's. I didn't really get to know her.

Imran: 37:50

I'll tell you. I'll tell you one when I was in middle school, I had a friend named Priscilla in my orchestra class and she was killed by her father, who was a pastor, and he killed I think it was the mother, my friend and her sister. The only one that escaped was the son, who was able to get out of a window and get over to the neighbor's house and call the police, and then the father killed himself and so the whole school shut down. It was a huge, the huge funeral and all that. But it was like I sat, I played viola and she played cello right next to me, and then she was just not there. Wow, and so I would want to see her.

Imran: 38:34

That's just who's popped in my head?

Pastor David: 38:36

Wow, another thing you're going to see. You'll see angels, you'll see the gates, you'll see people who have died. You're going to see your new body. So you have not only your soul, but your soul will have a spiritual body. So you step immediately into a new body, which is a spiritual body that's been prepared for heaven. That spiritual body will not be burdened by the things this body has been burdened by. So can you imagine people who have asthma? They die and they take their first breath in heaven. And it's got to be phenomenal, wow.

Imran: 39:08

People who have glasses Wow, breathing, not under a curse.

Pastor David: 39:12

Those of you with glasses, which is most of us all of a sudden, you'll just see surgery. People who limp are going to be able to run into God's presence. Can you imagine what it's going to be like for people that are colorblind? Jimmy Pritchett at church is colorblind. That guy, I want to be close by when he steps into glory because he will see the brilliance of the glory of.

Pastor David: 39:35

God, all the colors will suddenly come luminous before him. People with mental slowness all of a sudden, their minds will be set free from that which tied them down on earth. There's a guy that goes to our church named Robert, who has autism. He loves the Lord so much. Remember one time we were talking about heaven in small group and Robert said do you think that I will still have autism when I get to heaven, or will I be? His words were normal. Will I be normal? I?

Pastor David: 40:03

said Robert, the great thing about heaven is your mind will be set free. And that man with autism just grinned ear to ear for the rest of the night at the thought that one day he would not be. You know, because he's got autism he feels weird, different, outcast.

Selena: 40:19

That's interesting and he knows it.

Imran: 40:20

Yeah.

Imran: 40:21

And he can't wait to not be? Oh my gosh, I've never even thought about that. Someone with a mental illness is, then, what it's like to be self aware of your mental illness but able to do nothing about it because you know we talk all the time Ryan talked about it more recently to like challenge yourself, to try and deny your body something and realize how much control your body actually has over you, and exponentially more so with your mind. It's like we really think we have a lot of control over our mind when we really don't.

Imran: 40:54

and when you take that to its extreme of like having a mental illness and then being a self aware that you have it and knowing you can't do anything about it, like what a, what's a, what a insane situation right and imagine the thought of Gloria finally overcoming that. Yeah.

Pastor David: 41:11

Because we take our minds for granted, we're kind of proud of it. But what if you were just afflicted with mental illness and then to and you get a little outcast by it? You get because you're not socially normal, you're not mentally able to deal with some stuff.

Imran: 41:25

And, like you said, to be aware of it and to be aware of it, man, robert, it was a blissful ignorance is blissful for a reason. Yeah, but he knows. He knows he's different. He was just so happy.

Pastor David: 41:36

That's intense. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, 1 to 4, he describes us having. So, as soon as you die, you step into the into heaven and you are given a new body capable of the spiritual world. So you have a human body. With that clothes you on earth, in heaven, you have a spiritual body and Paul describes that body.

Selena: 42:00

Remember, we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God and eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we grown longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because then we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent we grown in our burden, because we do not wish to be on clothes but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Pastor David: 42:33

Let me just unpack that a little bit. Paul says if this earthly tent we live in is destroyed, that's your body. Your body right now is like a tent which tents are great for a while, but you don't want to live in a tent. Tents get nasty, they get smelly, they get torn. Your body gets sick, it gets weary, it gets tired, it gets cancer, it gets kidney disease. It needs glasses, it needs hearing aids, it needs caffeine. Your body just on its own.

Imran: 43:00

It's just a tent, that's wearing out right On top of all the temptation and all the.

Pastor David: 43:07

In heaven we don't have a tent, we have a building. So a building is a permanent residence. He says right now you're just in a little temporary residence, you're in a tent. It's subject to the elements like no other Exactly, but in heaven you've got a body that's not going to wear out, you've got a spiritual body, and that spiritual body it's like those French castles, and it doesn't break down.

Imran: 43:28

Yeah, it'll pretend they're from the elements. They just put thousands of years.

Pastor David: 43:32

Yeah, yeah, you will step right out when you die. You step right out of this old tent and you step into a brand new body. All of a sudden you can see, all of a sudden you can hear. I think things taste better. I think it is. Can I put it this way? It's a body more capable of receiving reality than the physical body you have right now. There's a little bit of unreality with your body now. It cannot fully taste, it can't fully see. Your body now. It can't see spiritual things, you can't see angels, you can't. It's limited. You will step into a body without some of those limitations. I love that.

Imran: 44:08

That's intense.

Pastor David: 44:09

Things you'll see. You'll see angels, you'll see gates, you'll see people who have died. You're going to see your own new body. I think the most important thing to communicate of what you're going to see is you will see Jesus. That is the promise. You're going to see Jesus standing in glory and his face is going to shine like the sun and, I think, very quickly you will have a conversation with Jesus about the life that you lived. For believers, that is going to be a great experience to stand before Jesus, I think, giving an account for our lives. How did you live? Let's talk about your life. You are going to intensely feel his love. You will know how much Jesus loves you.

Pastor David: 44:45

At that moment, many will receive deep forgiveness. Some of you are going to hear well done, good and faithful servant. I think he was going to wipe tears away from this world, but everybody did not believe and I don't think everybody has the same experience with Jesus. I think for the wicked to stand before Jesus will be a terrible moment. Jesus said that he will cast some away from him. They'll come up and they'll say hey, remember, I did all this for you. And he's going to say you were a total fake away from me, you who are wicked and all you'll want to do for all eternity is stand and stare into his face. So it would be cast away from him as the deepest hell.

Imran: 45:23

That's pretty intense, let's see. Honestly, convicting is not the right word, but it's like an awareness of the intensity of that fact.

Pastor David: 45:36

I hope it makes you hungry.

Imran: 45:39

It's like I can choose to go to church, I can choose to go to work, I can choose the job and the career and all that, but I cannot choose not to die. I cannot choose not to go through this process that we're describing here. And there's a peace, but also a fear associated to that as well, because it's one of the few things that you can never really escape Again, unless Jesus comes back and you just don't have to die, you just go get raptured straight up, you don't have to worry about it. All right, but outside of that it's like you will die, you will stand before the king, you will give an account.

Pastor David: 46:21

And that's a very personal experience.

Imran: 46:23

You don't give an account, it's not a may, it's a will and it's like, oh, that's.

Pastor David: 46:26

I don't give account for your life, I give account for me. So me and Jesus have a conversation about my life and what do I bring to him? What do I have to give to the Lord? Where there's souls that I want? Did I? Did I serve him well? At that moment, I want to please the Lord.

Imran: 46:40

Like I said, I think you will want to spend all eternity staring into his presence because he is beautiful but then the the caveat to that is also, though, that I can never do enough to meet some standard expectation to enter heaven. So then, how? How does how? Do I know that I'm going to Like, I'm going to?

Pastor David: 47:05

be okay, because the promises of God are secured in the person of Jesus. Jesus promised to you is that if you, by faith, put your faith in him and live for him, that you are received in the kingdom of God. Not based on your good works, you're brought. You're brought into the kingdom of God based on the blood shed for you on the cross. And so the reason we live is we want to have something to give to him. You want to show up the same way you want to please somebody with a gift. You want to live your life like a gift you're going to give the Lord.

Pastor David: 47:34

I like that, yeah, you want to show up on that day and he and not go. Okay, you're gonna let me in, he goes. Yeah, but I was so disappointed in how you lived. You want to get there and say you know, I won this person to you, I shared you, I, you, just you love him so much money or life.

Pastor David: 47:48

That was testimony to you and all of that you know when there's a girl you really love, you want to show up and please her with a gift. It's not that you have to, you just want. You want to. Yeah, how much more than a girl is Our Lord, I like, we want to show up and because then it's not about I'm doing this so that I can make it into your heaven.

Imran: 48:06

I'm doing this so that I can be saved. It's like I'm doing this because I know I'm saved and therefore it's totally different, huh I was not it's not self-absorbed.

Pastor David: 48:14

Well, I don't want to spend time in purgatory, so I live a good life. Yeah, it's, I want to give something.

Imran: 48:19

I'm so thankful that the Lord saved me, that I'm giving him yeah this. I'm giving him this small little bit of time on this eternal rope, because all that eternal is already guaranteed. Amen, amen.

Pastor David: 48:37

Little bit about what to expect in heaven. I just wrote down. I thought that's a good way to Pull together this discussion. Is some descriptions in heaven, or or some descriptions in the Bible of heaven. So what do we have here? We have about four, four different descriptions, and here's why I thought this was cool. There's a whole bunch of different ways the Bible describes heaven, because I think the human mind cannot hold in heaven. So the Bible almost stutters. It goes well, it's like a, it's like a it's like a.

Pastor David: 49:08

It's like a city, it's like a garden, it's a. So let me just describe some of them Then. Then, later on, will dive deeper into these, absolutely. But number one heaven is described as a great city. Hebrews 11 8 says that Abraham long for the city, whose foundation was from from God. When you think of a city, you think of a busy place. People are moving around there's streets. When you look at heaven, it's full of people, there's trees, there's drones, there's clothes. Heaven is described as this great, massive city. Those of us that are urban certainly urban America we can picture a city.

Imran: 49:41

Yeah, how exciting that is. Some people though they're like why can't heaven just be a big ranch, All right.

Pastor David: 49:47

Well, you'll like this. Heaven is also described as a banquet which man we're just coming at the end of Thanksgiving Headed into Christmas Backwards, are kind of a big deal.

Imran: 49:58

The funny part is this is probably gonna come out like right on Christmas right.

Pastor David: 50:01

So, so think about you go and what you love doing is just eating with family. Yeah that's heaven.

Imran: 50:09

I say at 25, verse 6 so people literally say that that's heaven about eating with family.

Pastor David: 50:13

Now I'm eating a bank with family like how, this is heaven, it is, it's yeah so Selena's like yes, yes, it's a taste, nodding at aggressively, it's a taste of heaven to eat with people you love. All right, selena.

Selena: 50:25

I say at 25, verse 6 on this mountain, the Lord of hosts will make for all people a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of Rich food full of marrow.

Pastor David: 50:37

There's how it describes the food that God prepares it's a feast, it's well-aged wine I like this line rich food. And then he says full of marrow. You know what marrow is? Bone marrow, like me, it's meat. Oh, I don't know how that works out. Somebody was trying to push me like how could there be meat in heaven If I was like look, I don't, I'm not in charge of organizing things. Yeah, I don't have a theological answer for how it, how there's meat in heaven. I'm just excited there is, we also.

Imran: 51:03

And got Absolute facts. I never even thought about that. But at the same time I was also like why would I have to eat? But at the same time, like eating tastes good, so it's like I'm not gonna go hungry, but also I can eat if I want.

Selena: 51:16

It's a good time and there's wine and there's wine. Never really thought of wine and heaven.

Imran: 51:23

Yeah, yeah. It's like there's wine but no drunks.

Pastor David: 51:27

Hey, yeah we've only experienced wine under a curse. It makes you crazy. Imagine being set free from that bit of the curse.

Imran: 51:37

Oh my gosh, where did I read that that was? That was literally. It was called so bay in the book that I was. Oh, oh, that's gonna bother me. It's a really old book, it's it's like a hundred year old book. It's a answer to George Orwell's 1984, but in the book they talk about that they've people are trying to escape reality and Science have produced this drug and they call in the book they call it so bay and basically you could freely get it. It's called brave new world brave new world.

Pastor David: 52:11

I mean, that's actually thank you, brave new world, and so you take in you're describing. I'm like that sounds a lot like brave new world.

Imran: 52:17

Yeah, brave new, which was a companion to 1984 Mm-hmm, it was. That was a continuation of the thought that was expressed in George Orwell's 1984 very fantastic book, but the so bay that the scientists, the people invented. They were using it to escape. So, instead of having to deal with the realities of life, instead of having to confront Relationship, instead of having to deal with difficult things anytime any difficulty presented the people take the drug.

Imran: 52:43

They would take the drug and they would just go off into the dreamland and not have to deal with it. Or, if they're like man, work sucks, they would take the drug so they could do their work and feel Good about doing something they didn't really want to do instead of actually facing it. But anyway, I brought that up because in the book they describe it as a drug with no side effects. There were no side. You could take it and you could take as almost as much as you wanted to escape reality.

Imran: 53:07

And there were no side effects. You would just like you could take so much that you would just pass out, but you would just wake up three, four days later and be fine. There were still no side effects. You just like come out of it. What if wine?

Pastor David: 53:17

under the curse, which is what we have now. What if it deadens you to reality? And what if wine set free from the curse brings?

Imran: 53:25

like enhances, but.

Pastor David: 53:27

I just say that it definitely refers to rich food and and meat and wine. Jesus also described heaven use the term of a banquet, the picture of a banquet, matthew 811. You see that, selena?

Selena: 53:39

Many will come from the east and the west and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Pastor David: 53:48

So Jesus refers to it as a feast, also in revelation. You just you're invited to the wedding. Separate of the lamb. All this imagery of eating. Why are all this picture of eating? Like it's a big Thanksgiving, it's a big here's why we get excited about what we're gonna eat. You know, I'm excited not about what we're gonna eat, I'm just excited someone else is gonna do the meal planning.

Pastor David: 54:07

Oh my gosh, like I'm so glad somebody else has figured out. But it's not so much that we should be excited. We're gonna eat and we're like, okay, we're gonna eat meat. Is there gonna be wine? Is there cheese? Oh man, there better be. It's more that Eating in the Bible is a picture of fellowship that you spend time with one another.

Imran: 54:25

So it's not about the gluttony, it's not a, you nailed it yes.

Pastor David: 54:29

It's that you're with one another. What do you do at the Thanksgiving table? You sit, you laugh with relatives you haven't seen for a while. You talk deeply, you sit well, you know well after the food's been eaten and you talk and you ideally, I hope, your family does that.

Pastor David: 54:42

Yeah, I hope you do that this Christmas, because it's a taste of heaven, not just the food, but the imagine sitting at the table and just talking to Abraham, talking to King David yeah, talking to Loved ones that have passed. Just being at the table and joy. So Often the Bible idea of eating together is the idea of community, as you so perfectly said.

Imran: 55:02

Yeah, I mean all through Judaism. And then there there are all these Fellowships that are stood up, festivals that are stood up because the community is the point. That's right.

Pastor David: 55:13

So heaven is described as a city, is described as a banquet. It's also described as a throne room. Isaiah said I saw the Lord high and lifted up. He's like sitting on the mighty throne.

Imran: 55:23

Yeah.

Pastor David: 55:25

It says, the foundations of the temple shook, the room filled with smoke. In in Immolation, john is swept from earth and he steps into heaven and the first thing he sees as he sees, the throne of God. That's important us, that's important imagery, not just for death, but it's important for us to know that in heaven the throne of all the universe sits and God rules on it from there. And so the, the universe is not without a ruler. There is not there, there is not cessation is there's not that. There's nothing out there. There is one that rules all that exists. Yeah, I love that. One last one just images. It certainly is a banquet, it certainly is pictured as the throne. You know the, the place where the great king rules. It's pictured as a city. I like this. It's just pictured by Jesus as an intimate home. You're just home, and it's the easiest way to describe what happens when we die, is we go home?

Pastor David: 56:21

We say, hey, they're home with the Lord. I think that's good theology when we say somebody's home.

Imran: 56:26

Something pastor Grover says is a when I, when I come into church on Sunday and he gives me the fist bump, he says I'm welcome welcome. I'm good and faithful servant. Is that cool yeah?

Pastor David: 56:36

how's it make you feel Love? Yeah, yeah.

Imran: 56:40

I really. Anything that comes out of Grover's mouth makes me feel loved, that's so cool. He's just exudes that yeah. That peace, I think, is the word, that peace yeah.

Pastor David: 56:51

Think of all this spectacular imagery that you know. There's this mighty city, and, and John got excited by the city and the foundations and the Population and the great trees. And then Jesus, the streets of gold, and we're like, wow, wow, look at all that. And Jesus goes it's just home, just understand, it's home.

Imran: 57:10

And Jesus, look, they said it's just home to me, I just want you to be home, yeah with me, it should be that, that sense and any goes so far, say I'm preparing a home for you, yeah.

Pastor David: 57:20

Yeah, here's why that matters. It's heaven is not so grandiose that we're uncomfortable there. So if you were to stay the night in the White House, you'd be terrified. Like I don't want to mess the sheets up, I'll run any big city. Yeah, we. A while back I took the kids to Disneyland. They were little and we stayed at the Disneyland Hotel. We were so excited we walked right in it. This was a big deal turns out anyway it is if you did that for me.

Pastor David: 57:45

My god, I was terror. I did not enjoy it a bit Because I was terrified the entire time. At one point I remember I got upset that Rebecca spilled juice on the floor and we're like, oh no, this is the Disneyland Hotel, what it? It was just a little beyond us.

Selena: 58:01

It was so big I couldn't enjoy it. Oh.

Pastor David: 58:04

I think that heaven is not the Disneyland Hotel, it's not. It's not the White House, disneyland. Heaven is home. Jesus said it's home. I Like this. I wanted to read this. This is by Bob Benson, who's a an author. He wrote a book. He was dying with cancer and he wrote a book and he said this. He said I Used to think of dying as leaving the party early, but I've come to understand that there's a party going on somewhere else and I'm missing out on it the. The Bible, of course, calls that party the marriage supper of the lamb. The title of his book was you at the house and he said this. He said you know, someone will say you're out and they'll say, hey, I'll meet you back at the house. That that communicates warmth and fellowship and acceptance and security. That's what Jesus said to us. He said hey, guys, I'll meet you back at the house.

Pastor David: 58:52

Yeah you know. Yeah, I love that. The most important thing is something, imran. You hit on it earlier so perfectly how do we know we're going there? John 14, verse 4, and all the way down to 6, selena describes how we know we're going to heaven.

Selena: 59:07

And you know the way to where I'm going. Thomas said to him Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way? Jesus said to him I am the way and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Pastor David: 59:22

Is that wonderful? How do I know I'm going to heaven? Jesus says is like I said hey, we don't know how to get there. It's not like Jesus goes Okay, wait, wait, let me get a map out and show you. I'll give you the GPS. I'll we would we get lost in the way Jesus said just trust me, I'll get you there, I'll walk you right in to heaven because you're mine, you know yeah, that's awesome man, pastor, this is are you excited?

Imran: 59:45

about heaven. I'm super excited about this series here in general because that's where I have like a bunch of questions but at the same time I can. It's like there's sometimes we're sometimes in the last hour I was like man, my heart rate's getting pretty elevated Because it's really intense, at least for me personally. I'm a thinker. I really just kind of tear things apart and try to Think about this, the so, what and the why, and then, like, carry that to its extreme and try to really figure out the purpose behind it. And I don't take things Literally.

Imran: 1:00:16

I don't try to take it just the way that someone told me. I try to really extrapolate on, like, well, why does that person say, why are they saying the things they're saying? Why are they believe the things they believe? And try and really pull that out more. And, and, selena, now we're talking about this and we talked a little bit too, but it's like the one of the reasons why I trust the, the words of Jesus Christ, as much as I do is Because they work all the way to their extremes.

Imran: 1:00:46

Jesus talks about that, that he is love, that God is peace, that, and it's like these ideals and these values. It's like you take, if you take love to its extreme, it's still good. You take peace to its extreme, it's still good. You take, like that past, the passion of Christ's, extreme it and he really did take it to extreme. He died on the cross for us and it was still good. So if you can't take a lot of the politics and the values that we have in our society To his extreme and it's still be good just what we talked about with the Buddhism piece in the beginning you take Reincarnation to its extreme and it's like, well, I don't want to get reincarnated into a worse state than I am now. So why would it be so? Why would I live a good life to hopefully, maybe not have a chance?

Pastor David: 1:01:30

Yeah, they got worse.

Imran: 1:01:32

Yeah, and it's like so it doesn't work. At its extremes, it doesn't make sense. Why would I want to be reincarnated to this place? It's like, why would I want to serve the devil for a chance to come back here and then die in war? It's like, because you take it to its extreme, it doesn't make sense. But you take Jesus to the extreme and it still works.

Imran: 1:01:47

It still makes sense, it's still good. Amen and um. And that's why I enjoy these, these discussions, because the podcast really gives me a chance to Ask those questions and ask so what in the wine?

Pastor David: 1:01:59

the Bible answers the big question that we as humans are capable of asking. I don't think a deer wonders what happens when it dies. I don't think the animal kingdom thinks that far yeah, I don't think so. But the human is capable of understanding that we have an end, and that terrifies us. Oh no, I have an end.

Pastor David: 1:02:18

The Bible, from the earliest chapters of Genesis, is Giving us the answer that this is not the end, that there's an eternity waiting for us, and so it is working to comfort us. And, as Hebrew said, jesus sets us free, those who all their lives were slaves to the fear of death. So I would say that, all of you out there, you are an eternal soul. You do not need to fear death, but you do need to fear the Lord, and you need to rightly place your hope and hope. It rightly placed, is not in purgatory, it's not in wrong systems, it's, and it's not even in the system of Christianity. Right hope is put in Jesus Christ and Asking him to remove sin, that you might live for him out of a life to give to him.

Imran: 1:02:58

Yeah, I love that, mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you so much, pastor. This is fun. I look forward. I how far did we get? We actually get as far as you wanted, or we were there we accomplished. He like pre-planned to break his break his notes up and I was like a you probably should. It's like we might.

Pastor David: 1:03:15

Have a lot of questions, yeah but this was really good.

Imran: 1:03:18

I hope you all continue down. This was like journey for me, like you don't even understand what's happening like in my body. But, I hope that you all are feeling just as passionate and excited to Continue down this rabbit hole with us as we continue to learn more about our Lord and Savior and about heaven. Amen, all right with that, I hope you'll join us next week for the next episode of real Bible stories.

Selena: 1:03:43

Thank you for tuning in to real Bible stories. If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to leave a review, share and subscribe to be notified each week when we upload new episodes. Real Bible stories is produced in partnership with Palm Church in 29 Palms, california. If you would like more information or want to check out archive sermons and Bible studies, please check out the church website at palmsbaptistchurchcom or check them out on Facebook, instagram or YouTube. Real Bible stories can be found wherever podcasts are found. Thank you again and we will see you next week.