Ep 77 Fear, Failure, Faith, and Four Giants - The Real Story of David and Goliath

In the latest episode of our podcast, my wife and I had the pleasure of talking with Pastor Ryan Brown. This podcast episode serves as an invitation to delve deeper into the narratives that have shaped centuries of moral and spiritual guidance, encouraging a re-examination of the lessons at the heart of the Bible. We invite you to join us in this enlightening journey through ancient wisdom, as we connect its relevance to the complexities of modern life.

 The tale of David and Goliath was revisited with a nuanced lens, focusing not merely on the physical battle but also on the deeper implications of heroism, masculinity, and generational responsibility. Pastor Ryan illustrated the roles played by individuals like Ehud, a judge with a physical disability, and Samson, whose chaotic actions aligned with divine purposes despite their apparent weaknesses or flaws. The discourse emphasized the stark contrasts in masculinity as depicted in the book of First Samuel, shedding light on the societal pressures faced by men and youth alike.
 
 As we explored the notion of giants within the narrative of First Samuel, Pastor Ryan introduced a thought-provoking analysis of the various textual interpretations of Goliath's height and the consequential historical and literary implications. The concept of stature was not limited to physical attributes but extended to the stature of one's heart and character. This key theme resonated throughout the episode, as it does in the biblical narrative, challenging the conventional criteria for leadership and heroism.
 
 Furthermore, the discovery of the Ugarit texts and their revelations about the Canaanite religion brought a new dimension to our understanding of the biblical era. The impact of these texts on biblical scholarship and our perception of scriptural polemics was thoroughly examined, providing listeners with a richer comprehension of the divine authority presented in these ancient texts.
 
 In conclusion, the episode encouraged listeners to contemplate the spiritual and moral lessons embedded within the Bible, prompting us to reconsider the significance of figures like Goliath. The thought-provoking query of whether Goliath could have been an ally had his zeal been directed towards a righteous cause added depth to the moral contemplations.

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Transcript

Imran: 0:01

Hi, this is Imran from Real Bible Stories. I just wanted to get on here real quick. I know that we just started this series with Pastor David on Heaven, but he got really busy at the beginning of 2024. So we're actually going to be coming to you with this great, great episode from Pastor Ryan Brown, because now we got him back from the holiday period. So I hope you really enjoyed this episode. It is definitely one of my favorites and it's definitely maturing the view that you had on this Bible story. Hope you enjoy. Hello and welcome to Real Bible Stories. Join us as we deep dive into the historic, religious, cultural, political and emotional context surrounding the real lives of real people in the Bible and the stories we've all grown to life. Hello and welcome back to Real Bible Stories. I'm your host, imran Ward, and we're joined by my wife, selena, and our teacher for today, pastor Ryan Brown. Hello everyone.

Selena: 1:05

Welcome back. I know I'm so excited and happy New Year's everybody. Yeah.

Imran: 1:11

It's been such a journey in terms of like everywhere we've been over the last few weeks. Selena and I just came back from a trip to Miami, where we're both from for the holiday period. And, Ryan, what were you doing for Christmas? Were you just around here?

Ryan: 1:20

Yeah, we stayed pretty local. We went up to Flagstaff for to the Polar Express and did some hiking up in To the Polar Express, yeah.

Imran: 1:29

What is?

Ryan: 1:30

that it's in Williams. It's awesome. It's pretty much just a train ride that goes from Williams up to this little Santa North whole town and back down and they do St Christmas, carols and hot chocolate and all that. That's super cute, but they got. Bear.

Selena: 1:46

Zona there, my favorite zoo's there.

Ryan: 1:49

We go there. Every time we go, it's like one of those drive-through zoos. Do you have to take a train to get to it? No, no. This is like right about five minutes outside of the town of Williams Arizona that you show up and it's just like. It's kind of like Jurassic Park the doors open up and you go driving through and then it's just all the bears and wolves and you're just driving along with them and it's a good time.

Ryan: 2:10

That's so interesting Did the deer farm and then went up to Flagstaff and did some hiking and we had a good holiday.

Imran: 2:16

We got to see a lot of snow and, yeah, that does sound like a good time. All right, awesome, awesome.

Ryan: 2:22

But I missed you all. I was telling them around when he came to pick me up that yeah, I feel like I haven't seen you guys in like forever.

Imran: 2:29

Yeah because it just kind of ended up not crossing passes often. You know, like Selina went to the meeting yesterday but I didn't actually go to church yesterday because I was over at the Protestant Chapel working on things. But we're all here now. We're all here together and now we're going to learn about the Word of God together. Amen. And we're going into the story of David and Goliath today.

Ryan: 2:50

Yeah, I think it'd be a good one for us to kick off, you know, in the beginning, when we first started this whole podcast, and I think it was when you guys had just shown up at the church.

Imran: 3:01

Yeah, I think we'd only been there about six months or so.

Ryan: 3:03

Yeah.

Imran: 3:04

By the first December, I think, is when I brought it up to you and I showed up in like July, June timeframe.

Ryan: 3:09

And in that time I was doing a Bible study series called Real Bible Stories right, which was taking some of the most common stories in your Bible and kind of maturing them for adults, because we had always received these, you know, versions of the story that were kind of for Sunday school Easy to color and coloring book. Right, you don't really like we don't talk about why Goliath was beheaded and dismembered after the battle, and you know what I mean. Like you don't talk about that with kids. Some people were like he was yeah. Just wait.

Ryan: 3:42

Yeah, so the whole premise was trying to mature some of those most common stories. But the other thing and functionally there's I've seen two kind of responses to these Bible stories and podcasts is one people they absolutely love it. I think when they get some of the more of the depth, where it's just beyond the nuance.

Imran: 4:02

Yeah, it just makes it more real. Yeah.

Ryan: 4:06

And so they enjoy it. But some of them they're like, yeah, but you also kind of ruin that story in the sense that you know their entire life, you know they had this. That's rose-tinted view. Yeah, this view of what that story was and what it was, what was going on, and kind of completely reforms and reframes it a bit, and a lot of the reason and we're going to see that tonight, which is why I'm kind of leading into that is that you know these stories. You know particularly the very popular well, all of them, but you know the popular ones. They're not told in a vacuum, right? So the point of communicating that story isn't just simply to let you know hey, there's this really cool battle between this warrior called Goliath and this shepherd boy named David right.

Ryan: 4:48

Yeah, it's in there to a larger point and typically the way these stories are taught or preached, or you know if it's taught in Sunday school, it's really just that story. If you're preaching it, even most sermons are about 30 to 40 minutes, so you don't have a whole lot of time to get into all the intricacies, right yeah, the nuances around how warfare works.

Imran: 5:13

Why were they at that battle in the first place? Well, what happened after that battle and how it?

Ryan: 5:16

sits within the literary context of that book, right, that any one of those stories is pulling in multiple themes, motifs and ideas that have probably been introduced before and are reinforced after, but that are ultimately leading to a larger point that has never always made. So we just kind of make you know, pull the story out and get some points from that. But you know what I mean. It's incomplete.

Imran: 5:44

I totally get you.

Ryan: 5:44

Yeah, so we're going to be doing that. We're going to be taking first, starting kind of like at a 3000 foot view of this story. That kind of weeds into it because you know it's. You have to really understand the real story behind David and Goliath and why it was significant, why it was included. You really need to understand the problem, what was going on.

Imran: 6:06

Yeah, and I absolutely agree. For those that have been listening to the more recent episodes, like if you listen to our episode on the Red Sea crossing, I didn't even think about that happening at night, like something that's like very clearly written in the scripture. Every time I, you know, I had to draw it in a coloring book as a kid.

Selena: 6:27

I drew a sunshine in the sky or there was already sunshine there for me to color. Color in the sun.

Imran: 6:31

But it's like that happened at night undercover darkness. We had a pillar. They were being led by a pillar of flame that then went behind them and blinded the Egyptians from being able to see the Israelites cross, and there was a light on one side and darkness on the other, so they were confused.

Ryan: 6:45

It's like wow, that is very well, that's going to actually feed into another concept we're talking about with David and Goliath.

Ryan: 6:50

that was applied to that story as well, so that's actually good, good anchor for us to maybe fall back on to to discuss later now, but just because, because, yeah, yeah, well, we'll take it in due time because there's actually a lot to chew here, so let me, I guess, one bite at a time. Yeah well, let's first start off with first Samuel. In the book that this story sits in, we're gonna be in first Samuel 17 and first Samuel as a book itself. Like maybe just summarize it this way what was the problem? What was going on? This story sits underneath the larger point of first Samuel, which is that you it's trying to address Generational failure. Interesting, particularly among adults.

Imran: 7:37

Now, just from my mind, first Samuel's, after judges, right, correct. It's been a while since I've done Bible drill. And that is absolutely have all of the stuff that happened very next of judges. It flows, judges flows right because judges is all of that generational failure, with the judge being risen. And then how did it go? It's like the people are given the sign, they turn to God and then they start turning away from God.

Ryan: 7:57

A judge is risen up and I think it's right and we're gonna refer to that here in a bit, because so it's speaking to a generational failure, but particularly a generational failure of adults, but specifically, specifically men. So to your judges, point right, which is also generational failure. Yeah, and the idea is that God had made a promise to them, but they also had to be faithful back. They had to go clear the land of Canaan we're kinda to Clear out of all the inhabitants and be faithful, right, but they weren't doing. They started to with Joshua. They kind of made these little strongholds within the land, but they never finished the job, right? Mm-hmm.

Ryan: 8:42

So God is starting wanting to raise up judges, to keep them to do because he's faithful, even if they're unfaithful, yeah, but he uses he does it in ways, though, to show them in a sense, I think, even give confidence to them.

Imran: 8:56

Remember correctly, it was Samson that, through his actions, actually triggered the right with the Canaanites. It ultimately got the Canaanite Scriven out right.

Ryan: 9:04

So to put it across and we're not gonna go through all the judges, but yeah, like if you look at um Deborah, okay, so as a good example is Particularly in this culture, women were not Expected to take up arms and fight wars, yeah, let alone lead armies to be the general, but because the men were failing to do it, he says I'm still going to accomplish what I want to accomplish, but I'm not gonna raise up a man, I'm gonna raise up a woman, mm-hmm, and I'm going to show that I can use anybody to accomplish what I want. Right, yeah there's another story. Another judge, ehood, who was a cripple. Yeah, like it says, essentially forgot the name of it, but it's when you're like your bones kind of contract in and it kind of makes your oh man, like it makes your I.

Imran: 9:50

Do? I do know what you're talking about. I do not cripple in. Yeah, I mean I forgot what it's called.

Ryan: 9:54

But but you have you hood, who's this cripple? And he ends up going and executing and assassinating one of the Canaanite Kings. So he's showing them like men, if you're not gonna do it, I will even raise up the crippled and they're gonna be able to accomplish my will. Right? You get to Samson, who's a psychopath. It's like okay, man, if you're not gonna do it, I'm gonna raise psychopaths and I'm gonna use them to my good to Strip so much chaos that will force you to go to war to be faithful with what you're supposed to do, right?

Ryan: 10:22

So first Samuel is kind of an extension of that right is that? Here they're. They're in war against the Philistines because of the chaos that Samson hadn't raised up. They're finally at war, but they're still not really fully mature in their faith, what they were supposed to be doing in first Samuel. You have 100 and I have it right down here. Oh, the term men or man is used 161 times in the book. In Samuel, in first Samuel okay, and that is more than any other book in the Bible.

Ryan: 10:55

Oh, wow so there is more, that there is the heaviest emphasis on men in first. Samuel, and the one that comes in number two is second Samuel, with 140 instances of man.

Ryan: 11:07

Manning these so there's, this emphasis, like it's meant to be a manly book, right, in a sense you kind of get that sense when you read it because it's there's a lot of combat, there's a lot of war, right, like yeah, if you were to make a movie of this book of the Bible, it's like it would be a guy movie, right, like it would just be oh man, what is that quintessential movie about the Roman battle?

Imran: 11:29

No, but that's great to. They could be 300, 300 not 500, you're right.

Ryan: 11:39

Yeah, like even the guy like Braveheart, and you know that's the kind of movie for Samuel would be. So it's meant to appeal to men. It's meant to be one of those kind of books, right, and Even more so. There is also this comparison between men and the youth. So you got adults and men and you got boys, youth. That's another one that's calm, the only other book it actually ties for With Genesis, for the most used term of the you of the word youth, or boy, or somebody who's like an adolescent.

Imran: 12:15

That's interesting that Genesis uses that term that much.

Ryan: 12:19

And that's because most of Genesis is talking about a family, right from Abraham all the way through, and so, anyways, my point being is that what you're really talking about is this generational failure, and leading into the story with David Excuse me and fighting Goliath is that you and a lot of people miss. The tragedy of this story, which is that here is David at this particular time, is anywhere between the ages of probably 13 and 16 years old, okay? Having to go fight a battle that all of the men of his generation should have fought but refused to fight? So not only did they allow a child to fight their fight for him, they encouraged him, they even tried to equip him and they allow him to go out alone. Right, so like, we're gonna get into it here in a second, but even when the speaks of Goliath showing up to this fight, he has a shield bearer with him. Nobody even went out with David To go fight this fight.

Ryan: 13:21

So you're talking about how embarrassing that is for a man to be reading this and be like, wow, there was not a single man who was willing to step up and do what he needed to do. Instead, we needed our children to fight this fight, and I think, like that point in itself, when we start thinking about a generation, is that I would say, I would even argue, in our current generation you can find plenty of examples where we are expecting our youth to fight fights that the adult should be fighting. And because adults aren't taking responsibility for the fights they should be fighting, that's why you start seeing like, culturally, politically, all these things start targeting the youth.

Ryan: 13:59

A lot of these are saying if that's who's gonna fight your fights, that's who we're gonna target. So, they're going after junior high high school college students, the current generation.

Imran: 14:10

I mean you can look at the biggest name protests that you see right now. A lot of them are primarily it's the young people out there protesting. It's not those that are older or empower anything like that. It's like it's the high school, college generation, like they're out there on the streets trying to get something to change because well they expect those in power to be handling whether or not, and they have all the zeal but none of the experience none of the education yet.

Ryan: 14:36

So this is why you start seeing this powder cake of just nonsense, right, and they're also going to push things that they're cause. They're also more naive, so they're going to believe certain things quicker or without challenge, or maybe they're like I'm not sure that's right, but they don't feel confident enough yet and what they know or can do. That's why adults need to step in and say no, that's nonsense.

Ryan: 14:58

Let me You're the long-term notifications of right let me step in and be an adult in this situation, instead of letting you continue to fight this alone.

Imran: 15:05

Here's a little statistic that I heard recently in an advertisement. It was for a dating application and they said that it was something like 58%, maybe 60%, of young people like Gen Z, millennials, are comfortable dating multiple people at the same time. And this app was marketing that like we make it really easy and convenient for you to be able to date multiple people at one time. And I was like why is that something that is marketable? Like yeah, exactly. And it's like it's like what are we doing as adults, as Christians, to help inform people that that is not a healthy way? There's not long-term success in that strategy. All right, there's a lot of long-term ramifications. That's not going to be in your best interest if you continue down this path.

Ryan: 15:51

Right. And how does that translate, though, to well, how do adults fight the fight that children are fighting, it's like? Well, that means having the fights with your children sometimes. Yeah. Like, hey, I know you're 16, but no social media. And if I catch you on social media I'm taking your phone right Like who wants to have that fight with their teenager. But sometimes you have to because you see the effects of it.

Imran: 16:13

You know this new generation, right now, at people two and under, they're one to be called generation alpha. That's termed now generation alpha. Yeah, cause we have one through Z, so we're back to A.

Imran: 16:22

Yeah so cause you go into the Greek. Now we're in the Greek alphabet. So generation alpha is also nicknamed iPad kids because of the lack of involvement of their parents and just being perfectly comfortable giving them the iPad and letting them be taught by Apple and taught by these tablet makers on how to be, and taught by YouTube kids on how to be a kid, instead of actually being involved in your kids lives. So it's-.

Ryan: 16:48

We went through this as a family because we like, we saw it and we have put it into it right. But there is a thing when you have that toddler whoever's throwing a temper tantrum a benefit that my generation has with parenting that if anybody older like who was not part of that iPad age when they had children, would say that that's just ridiculous, like they would have done the exact same thing. You know what I mean. If your kids are losing your mind and you're like, hey, here, just watch this video, right To entertain them, and they get it. It calms them down. So now I'm not embarrassing the restaurant anymore.

Imran: 17:20

But the reverse is also true, cause I remember seeing at the wedding that we were trying to take this picture of the ring bearer and he's, like you know, like two years old or whatever, and he was on the iPad and they took it away from him and he just scurried.

Ryan: 17:34

Yeah, it turns into that.

Imran: 17:35

And they gave it back to him and he was completely quiet and they were like but we need to take this picture. They took it away from him and he just screamed. It took them like 20 minutes to calm this kid down. After they took this thing away from him and we saw that too and that's why we've removed it.

Ryan: 17:47

We did that fight and we said, yeah, they're not going to be happy for a couple of days, but we removed YouTube. We removed that right Cause we saw the effects it was having that we had become, on discipline, not really thinking through the longterm effects of this the habit this could build and what this could do to them. But you know, that's sometimes like the fight you need to fight and if you don't fight that fight, then you're letting all these other sources right.

Imran: 18:09

Yeah, come in and yeah, corporations, schools, friends, government coming in and mentoring your kid, when you should be there teaching your kid Right.

Ryan: 18:17

The first point of this is that the story of David and Goliath sits within this literary context of talking about a generational failure of men refusing to be men, allowing children to fight fights that the adults should be fighting, right, all to accomplish what Israel was supposed to be doing in terms of their faithfulness to what God had told them. Right, so that's one. The second thing is, I think and this is real Bible stories right, this is going to be a, this is a misnomer, but we always call this. Whenever you think of David and Goliath, what do you think of giants Defeating your giants, right, yeah?

Imran: 18:59

Who are the Goliaths in your life? Yeah?

Ryan: 19:00

giants, giants, giants. How to be a David, you know, whenever calls him a giant, that is something that is just subsumed onto the text and it's the text doesn't call him a giant. No, it does not Sure, doesn't, oh snap?

Imran: 19:16

So is it just because. Well, we'll get to it, OK, because we're going to have to read the text first.

Ryan: 19:20

We are going to get into it, but why don't we first actually do that? Let's read the. Go ahead and explain what we're going to. Start in verse four and go through what verse 11?.

Imran: 19:32

This is first Samuel 17.

Ryan: 19:34

And we're going to be all across first Samuel 17, 16, really across the entire book. But this will be a good anchor text for us to start off.

Selena: 19:44

And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. He had a helmet of bronze on his head and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was 5,000 shekels of bronze. And he had bronze armor on his legs and a javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam and his spear's head weighed 600 shekels of iron. And his shield-bearer went before him.

Selena: 20:18

He stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel why have you come out to draw out for battle? Am I not a Philistine and are you not servants of Saul? Choose a man for yourselves and let him come down to me. If he is able to fight with me and kill me, then we will be your servants, but if I prevail against him and kill him, then you shall be our servants and serve us. And the Philistine said I defy the ranks of Israel this day. Give me a man that we may fight together. When Saul and Israel heard these words of the Philistine, they were dismayed and greatly afraid.

Ryan: 20:57

OK, so that acts as a good anchor. Ok, Now notice nowhere in.

Selena: 21:01

There are calls on my a-giant. Well, what is? Six cubits and a span.

Ryan: 21:05

So we'll talk about that here in a second, because and a span.

Ryan: 21:11

Yeah, that's interesting metrics, right. Yeah, but I first want to kind of make this point, which is based off of the intention of the writer, the. When you follow the way he, what the author is trying to communicate in terms of first Samuel and what he is introducing, if you're going to call Goliath a giant, you really then have a story of four giants. There's really four giants that the author presents in this story and he really emphasizes three elements for each one of them. Ok, so let me first name the four giants, ok so you have Goliath OK the champion of the Philistines, ok.

Ryan: 21:53

the second is, you have Eliab, who is David's older brother. Ok, that's the second giant that is emphasized in first Samuel. The third is King Saul, and the fourth ultimately ends up being David. Ok, now, this is what he's comparing. Ok, this is the contrast and this is what the authors, I think, trying to communicate to us. There's three things that are emphasized with each one of these men. The first is their stature. Ok, so first, here we see with Goliath is what he is.

Imran: 22:27

Nine cubits and a shekel or a six cubits and a span.

Imran and Ryan: 22:33

Six cubits and a span, so he's six cubits and a span.

Ryan: 22:36

So as a metric, what that would translate to us is around nine foot nine to nine foot eleven. So people make this leap of.

Selena: 22:46

Ok, that means he's a giant because that's really tall right, that's quite a height.

Ryan: 22:50

Now here's the thing, and this is going to rock some people's boats.

Ryan: 22:53

OK but the oldest Recorded document we have of this story comes out of the Subtuigen. Now, the Subtuigen was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. Ok, so when the Greeks came and took over, alexander the Great established the Library of Alexandria, and what had happened is all the great scribes, all the great rabbis of the day, met at Alexandria and they translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek, ok, ok, so the oldest document we have of this story comes from the Subtuigen. There is and I say that because in the Subtuigen, which is the oldest we have, it does not list Goliath as being nine foot nine to nine foot eleven, six cubits and a span, and instead it tells us that he's four cubits and a span, oh really, which puts him about six foot nine to six foot eleven, which is still really tall, yeah, but it's not like freakishly tall.

Imran: 23:56

Yeah, she killed Niels over seven feet tall Right, and Goliath would have towered over him.

Ryan: 24:01

You know what I mean? Yeah, so if he was nine foot nine? So if he was nine foot nine, why is it that the older document thinks you're killing.

Imran: 24:08

He was the tallest man. I'm aware of. It's like I don't think he's the tallest man, I think he's not, that's currently alive. I think it's a Chinese guy, but still tall, Like I think you're seven foot eleven is probably so.

Ryan: 24:20

The point being is that why does it place him around six foot nine, six foot eleven in the older documents, but in the newer, yeah, why does that get exaggerated? Right, because the oldest Hebrew document we have, which is about 200 years older, puts him at nine foot nine, nine foot eleven.

Imran: 24:40

OK, well, hold on. He's hold on, because I want to make sure I clarify, because you said the oldest document we have Of this story was the Greek one. Is the? Is the sub-tuogen.

Ryan: 24:52

The sub-tuogen which was the Greek Translation of the Hebrew Bible when all the rabbis met together in Alexandria and translated over to Greek so so you said 200 years older though, but it's so.

Imran: 25:01

But this, this other, the oldest Hebrew one is 200 years younger no order older, so even older than the Greek one right.

Ryan: 25:09

So the earliest document we have of this is the Greek Subtuigen translation, which has him at six foot nine, six foot 11.

Imran: 25:15

Yeah, but the Hebrew one is it wouldn't be older, be younger. It'd be 200 years younger.

Ryan: 25:20

No older how you know the oldest one the historically the oldest Hebrew version of this story we have mm-hmm is when I say older. I'm sorry. I think I understand your confusion. The old Subtutian is older than the the oldest Hebrew document we have of this okay, right the T, the Greek one, is 200 years older than the Hebrew correct.

Imran: 25:43

He brought a slightly younger. Yes, got you yes.

Ryan: 25:46

Yes, like, yeah, I got you two hundred more years. That's how English works. Yeah, I know, yes, what you're saying. Yeah, so the point is that I'm just making sure.

Imran: 25:53

So the Hebrew ones younger, the Greek ones older, but the Greek ones, a translation of an older Hebrew version correct.

Ryan: 25:59

Okay, that has him short right.

Imran: 26:00

Yeah, that has him short. So to Selena's question. But we latched on to that oldest Hebrew version which is to introduce younger than the Greek right and Selena's question was why is that?

Ryan: 26:08

because in the time of that, he at least the oldest Hebrew document we have. That's when they were being ruled by the Greeks, so you have to kind of understand Religious rivalry. Okay, if the Greeks are in charge, what religion is now starting to take over and be Culturalized within the region of Israel?

Imran: 26:27

does the Greek religion have a name.

Ryan: 26:30

Yeah, I mean. Well, they have their pantheon right. Zeus and Apollo and right so the Greek pantheon of gods is starting to Go into the culture, right? Okay the Greek religion. You know they had. You know all these stories and myths of these heroes going to slay these massive giants and Creatures right.

Imran: 26:52

Odysseus playing the big epics they call them epics right these big epics.

Ryan: 26:57

So part, but many think, is that they kind of change some of the details To make it sound a little bit more like a Greek epic, to get people kind of focused on Cyclops, right and and you see a lot of instances of this across the Bible and we'll talk a little bit more about this later. It's called polemics, but well, but when we talk in like reality, right in terms of what we know by the oldest document that we have, goliath is probably more six foot nine, six foot eleven big dude, really tall, but not like this.

Selena: 27:35

Because, if not, they wouldn't have written it correct like this, this guy he's impressively tall but he is not Supernatural exactly so, but notice, though, that the first thing right is that it emphasizes his stature, right.

Ryan: 27:51

This is how big he is. This is how tall he is. This is he's athletic. He's a champion right. The second thing is his experience. So you see this in verse four, there, when it uses the term champion Right. To be a champion means you are experienced in warfare, you're you are not.

Imran: 28:10

You know you are not a novice exactly like this isn't a David coming up right.

Ryan: 28:14

This is this is somebody who's experienced in war, so it emphasizes stature experience. And the third was equipment, right? So the rest of that whole slew of text that you read knows how it goes in explaining the type of armor he has yeah this is gonna become really relevant when we start talking about the battle itself.

Ryan: 28:32

But there's this huge emphasis on the equipment that go. I thought so you got a guy who was big and stature, who was experienced and who is very well equipped, yeah right, so there's that big emphasis for him. Now again back to the sub two agent. It mentions his, his equipment, but it doesn't provide the same details of equipment that's was provided later in the the Hebrew document. So Like talking about how much the shield weighed and things like that, those right it the original talks more to.

Ryan: 29:10

And he had all this, this weaponry and equipment with him. He's well equipped. In their day that would have been a big deal, because it's not like modern militaries where, all right, well it's just it's a semi-quick, it go to. Sif and check out your, your PPE Right, like for you to go to war? And I'm gonna talk about this when we get into the second giant here, which is Eliab.

Imran: 29:31

You were kind of expected to source your own equipment to war with like, even, even, as, even as recent, but like in the revolutionary war, that was one of the conditions of joining the army it was to bring your own rifle, all right. And joining the Marine Corps bring your own rifle. So that was like you have to have a rifle already if you're gonna join. We don't have rifles for you, right?

Ryan: 29:50

Yeah, it's expected you bring your own equipment. So, and that goes into the second one here, which is Eliab, who is David's family, right, it's his oldest brother and and if you were to back up one chapter in chapter 16, I think it's, let's see verse 6 through 7 I mentioned. So the prophet Samuel is showing up because he's wanting to anoint the next king, right, he's kind of doing this behind Saul's back. So he comes to Jesse, who has all his sons, david being the youngest of those sons. But it says that it mentions Did you turn there?

Ryan: 30:25

Yeah, so you know you want to read it versus 6 through 7.

Selena: 30:28

When they came, he looked on Eli. How do you say that?

Ryan: 30:32

Eliab.

Selena: 30:34

Eliab and thought surely the Lord's anointed is before him. But the Lord said to Samuel do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him, for the Lord sees not as man sees.

Ryan: 30:49

Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart right, so notice the emphasis there, though we're gonna get to the looks at the heart here in a second, but the first piece is don't look about how tall he is and how how big he is right. So it emphasizes the height of Goliath, but it also the author emphasizes the height of Eliab. Mm-hmm right.

Ryan: 31:10

And then why is that? Well, why Eliab? In because it later tells us that Eliab was the one who went to war on behalf of that family. Yeah, the whole reason David shows up to the battle is to deliver cheese and bread to his Brothers who went ahead to fight does that? Make sense. So you have his older brother who is there, big and stature, right experience would see. Verse 13 Emphasizes the experience of Eliab. The equipment kind of we were just talking about was a soon going into battle right so he had the equipment, he had the experience, he had the stature, his older brother.

Ryan: 31:50

Mm-hmm but the Lord rejected him, right. So here you have Goliath, huge stature experience equipment. Here you have Eliab, stature experience equipment. Didn't get to solve, okay. So in first Samuel, chapter 9, verses 1 through 2, it also emphasizes the stature of King Saul. Do you have?

Imran: 32:11

it in around you when I read it, so first shot first Samuel, chapter 9, verse 1 and 2. There was a man of the tribe of Benjamin whose name was kish, the son of Abil, son of Xeror man. You got me with this one son of.

Imran: 32:26

Becarroth at the son of a P hi, a Benjamin, a mighty man of influence and wealth. Kish had a son named Saul, a choice and Handsome man. Among the sons of Israel, there was not a man more handsome than he. From his shoulders and up, he was a head taller than Any of the people so what does it emphasize?

Ryan: 32:48

there again, height right stature says stature. So King Saul had stature. He was taller than everybody, he was bigger than everybody. He had the stature. And really it is an inferred understanding. But in terms of combat experience, when you read from chapters 13 all the way leading into this fight with Goliath, they're just stories after story of Saul fighting battles.

Imran: 33:13

Yeah, you're learning, dead he's winning.

Ryan: 33:16

Right, you're learning an Experiencing combat with Saul as you kind of read through that book, right? So you already know it's already assumed. How's that not? In that series already, I know right. But then the third was his equipment. So, if you Remember, if we were to keep reading out of first Samuel 17, david will eventually step forward to fight Goliath. And it says immediately what Saul begins to do is to dress David and his armor right. So Because to them and we'll get to this in a second we get to David.

Selena: 33:48

David didn't have you know the stature.

Ryan: 33:51

He didn't have the experience and he didn't have equipment. So he's like well, at least the least we could do is give you equipment. Mm-hmm and King Saul, being the king, probably had the best equipment of everybody in the army. Yeah does that make sense, mm-hmm? So I'll at least give you some good equipment to go fight with right, and then eventually, you know, david rejects it and says I can't move in this like this is not too much.

Ryan: 34:11

It's not built for me because, remember, he's bigger than everybody and yeah, but see how it's emphasizing those three elements for each one of them, right? Yeah, so they're all pretty much the same. They're all tall, they're all big, they're all Well experience and war, and they're all well equipped right. Then you get to David. Right, and this is what the author is kind of leading everybody to by comparison of those three things, now, what does it say of David's stature? Right? So one this says that he was handsome. It says that he was uses this term essentially that he was like a redhead who was like blushing, but he was very Like a beautiful, yeah, baby face and so, okay, handsome, I probably would have made the girls go gaga, right?

Ryan: 34:55

But not this and you see that rugged when you get to Back to chapter 17,.

Ryan: 35:01

Right, when David comes forward to fight Goliath, he actually gets offended. This is what he says. He said to David am I a dog that you come to me with sticks? If and the Philistine curse David, by the Gods, come here, he said, I'll give you a flesh, the birds and the wild animals. But what? What? All to that? Because in verse 42 he says he looked David over and saw that he was a little more than a boy, glowing with health and handsome, and he despised him, right. So the point is, is that what it emphasizes with David is that, yeah, I keep maybe even good-looking, but he did not have the stature of a warrior. Yeah, right, he was not. He did not have the height, he didn't, he wasn't big. Yeah, he's just this youthful. You know heartthrob. Essentially, yeah, and and Goliath is just like. This is ridiculous. You you see, offended right, so he's an.

Ryan: 35:52

Edward. Right, but what does it say about his stature? So this goes back to when Samuel came to Annoint the next king. He looks at Eliab and he's like don't look at a stature, don't look how tall he is or how handsome he is. The Lord is not with him.

Ryan: 36:10

Mm-hmm but he gets to David, because then there's this whole story of well, I got my youngest, still he's out in the fields and like we'll bring him in and Samuel sees him. But if you remember, samuel says man looks at outward appearance, but God looks at what the heart, the heart. And then the Bible later says, talks about how David was a man after God's own heart, right. So the first thing that it emphasizes in terms of stature, it's not the stature of the body, it's the stature of your heart.

Ryan: 36:36

Mm-hmm right when it comes to this fight. So David had the stature. It just wasn't the stature that the world looks at when it comes to making decisions. Right and we do that even today right, we tend to think, you know, I think David very easily could have fell into the same Temptation of, when he goes to fight Goliath is like well, I don't have, I'm not big, I come massive. That dude is right. Look at all these other bigger dudes and with higher stature around me. They can go fight it. Right, they should go fight this guy. Like why am I the one who gonna?

Ryan: 37:09

go fight his own brother Right there right like and his own brother let him right like. Could you imagine that, even as an older brother like yeah, I'll let you go out there and fight.

Ryan: 37:19

Even I'm saying all right, bet Like you want to do that as an older brother, especially if you had the stature quote-quote stature right, but it the the author makes the point. The stature that David had was the stature of his heart, right to approach this. Yeah, well, what did he have in terms of experience? Well, one, there was two things.

Ryan: 37:37

One of the things that David had said to Saul when he showed up is that he talks about how he wasn't necessarily a man at war, but he had battled beast to protect his flock. Right, that is making a play, though, again, from the anointing that Samuel had given them. Is that, hey, I'm stepping into this to be the flock of Israel or to fight for the flock of Israel. Just as I was a shepherd for my father's sheep, I will be a shepherd to these people. So one of the things that's kind of interesting about that is that there's this probably whole political thing going on with this. There may be a reason that Jesse had sent David to go deliver milk and cheese at the front lines to his brothers. David being anointed by Samuel, that was obviously on his mind.

Ryan: 38:30

Oh, yeah, that all happened beforehand, right, so he was probably showing up like so the high priest of Israel has anointed me to be the next guy. I don't know what that means.

Imran: 38:40

Oh, david would have known that this happened, right, because he had to lay hands on an anointing, right? So he was. But that's what I'm saying. He was, he was a teenager. Oh, he was. No, I mean, one of the anointing happened, but that's a separate.

Ryan: 38:50

Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, I mean, he could even. I mean, obviously, at the point of the fight he was between thirteen and sixteen and sixteen right so let's say he wants to guess. Literally he was sixteen years old and he was around thirteen right.

Imran: 39:03

But he was already. But then he got anointed. He was already a shepherd, though, because I remember they had to call him back to that field.

Ryan: 39:07

He had already been a shepherd.

Imran: 39:08

He was old enough to have responsibility in that way.

Ryan: 39:10

So, but he but remember Saul didn't know this happened. Samuel did this kind of quietly. Right.

Ryan: 39:16

So when David shows up, then he sees a wolf right threatening Israel and he doesn't see any of the men come to step forward. Much of this could have also been a sense of responsibility from David and say, well, if I'm really going to be the shepherd of Israel, at some point like apparently Through God's high priest told me that I need to go be a shepherd, I need to go fight the raveness wolf, right? Yeah, so he's one, drawing on experience, not as a man of war, but as a shepherd, and that's what Israel needs is a shepherd a shepherd to people, right.

Ryan: 39:53

So that's one piece, but the piece that is directly, I think, even more relevant to the larger point of Samuel, for Samuel and what is directly in the text itself, and it's kind of a clue. But in verse 26, you know so, for days, goliath is coming out and mocking Israel, yeah, particularly mocking Israel's God. He's mocking Yahweh, right, he's mocking their God and shaming them every single day, because every single time Like this is. This is in verse. Let's see 22 David left his things with the keeper of supplies, ran to the battle lines and asked his brothers how they were. As he was walking, talking with them, goliath, the Philistine champion from Gath, stepped out from his lines and shouted his usual defiance, and David heard it. Okay, whenever the Israelites saw the man, they all fled from him in great fear. So, over and over, he keeps talking about the fear of Israel, the fear of these men. I think that is absolutely wild.

Imran: 40:48

It says over there in verse 16, Goliath the Israelite, the Israelite, the Israelite. Verse 16, that Goliath came out morning and evening and took his stand for 40 days, 20, twice a day for 40 days.

Ryan: 40:57

Think about that. So, over and over, he's just mocking God, and this is going to be our final point. That feeds into our final point of what this big story really is. I think, yeah, but. But we'll save it right, one bite at a time, but going into this. So David hears this right, verse 26,. David asked the men standing near him what will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and removes this disgrace from Israel. Right, because then he continues who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?

Imran: 41:30

Man, I remember when we did the crossing of the Red Sea episode that the roasts that are in the Old Testament are just like top notch. Like I love the insults. Like if someone walked up to me and was like you, uncircumcised Philistine, I'd be like yo. What?

Ryan: 41:45

What? But what does that tie you to, though? What does that mean? Think to Israel. What was the sign of circumcision? Part of God's people Right. What's that? The part of God's people Right.

Ryan: 41:58

Now, that was the covenant sign that you belong under the covenant of God, the promises that God has made, that people, this is the sign that you belong to that Right, it was meant to be a sign to remind you I'm in covenant with Yahweh, right? Yeah? So by Him going out and saying, who's this guy to come mock the armies of the living God, this uncircumcised dude, this dude who's outside of this promise? Yeah, why are we letting this guy, who God has not made a promise, to mock the people he has made a promise to, in other words, what he ultimately shows up to battle with? He has a stature of heart, but then he has the experience, not of self, but the experience of Israel.

Ryan: 42:41

Yeah, he says do you guys not remember the Exodus? Do you remember the Red Sea? Do you remember there's another big thing that had happened prior in First Samuel that we'll talk about here in a second. But he is drawing on the experiences of Israel and what God has done for them. He says we're the ones who have the promise, we're the ones God is with. He is approaching the fight through the experience of God in Israel, not the personal experience of war, right, yeah, so he's looking at it holistically in terms of promise and covenant, because he has the stature of heart, right. But then he says what equipment did he come? Right, and this is in. Let's see verse 45. Right, so Goliath is mocking Him. You come at me with sticks, right In the Philistine Church.

Imran: 43:31

Was he referring?

Ryan: 43:31

to David as the stick. Yes, yeah, like a, he just like this tiny dude. Just these feeble things, because he came out not equipped with anything except a sign. Right, and we'll talk about that here in a second. But he comes out with this swing, like he's like you're going to come at me with sticks, yeah Right, like who is this? You know Justin Bieber.

Imran: 43:52

You know, what I'm saying.

Ryan: 43:53

Like who's coming out to fight me with a stick?

Imran: 43:56

He's hitting me a madness.

Ryan: 43:58

So he starts mocking David. But what does David respond to? But David said to the Philistine you come against me with a sword and a spear and a javelin. Right, equipment Right.

Selena: 44:07

He's emphasizing the equipment.

Ryan: 44:10

But I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied All right. So when everybody else was like, focused on the armor and the weapons and the height and combat experience, david comes strapped with the stature of heart for God, with the experience of Israel and the name or the character of Yahweh depending against them. Yeah. Which flows into, I would say, what we call the ultimate point. That's kind of being demonstrated here, which is that it's a polemic Now.

Ryan: 44:44

A what A polemic? Now let me explain this, okay. A polemic means a harsh criticism, or what I would just say how it practically plays out in Scripture. It is trash talk, oh and or, if you could say it this way, it's God trolling the world. The world yeah, it is awesome and it is everywhere I read. Since we've been on break, since I've been on break from the podcast, you guys have been still working. Yeah, I have read many books on, or you'd call polemic theology.

Imran: 45:21

And I've read a lot of books actually these moments where God reached into creation and just goes like LOL.

Ryan: 45:25

So we've talked about this before, if you remember. Okay, let's talk about the Christmas story. Right, remember about the star. We said well, that's actually probably in astrology play, because every constellation was given a region within the Roman Empire. They see the special star come out within a constellation that hadn't happened since and hasn't happened since, and it came out within the constellation of Judea. So that's how they looked at the star and said a king has been born in Judea. They go to Jerusalem, because that's the capital, looking for this new king. Right, that's a play on the astrology beliefs of a pagan society. It was a Gentile belief. Right yeah so what God.

Ryan: 46:04

We talked about this with Genesis. One right that it's. If you bring in and understand Egyptian creation mythology, babylonian, sumerian mythology of creation, he is taking essentially the belief systems, but then he plays out their belief systems in history, but to his purpose. So let me give you a couple of examples. Okay, because this is everywhere and I can just tell you like this, this has been something that I picked up on. I just never had a good construct of understanding like categorically what this was right and it's called polemics. I found it. That's why. I read like Everything is fine.

Ryan: 46:41

Yeah.

Imran: 46:42

But like a good example.

Ryan: 46:44

So when Elijah is in his showdown with the priest of Baal?

Ryan: 46:51

so they're not Mark Carmel right there's been a drought over the land because Elijah prophesied it. He said a drought is going to come over the land and that's what happened. The problem was it went on for three years and Elijah was like, hey, can you, lord, can you stop the drought, because we're like we're starving, right. So they decided to have the showdown, right? And they build altars on top of Mount Carmel and he says whoever the God favors, or whoever's altar he favors, right is, is victorious, essentially right. So of course, it says that a fire from heaven came down, struck Elijah's altar to Yahweh and they slayed the 500 prophets of Baal. And that starts this whole thing with Jezebel and King Ahab, right.

Ryan: 47:33

There's a whole story around it, but what we miss contextually is this the reason Elijah called for a drought is because the God Baal in Canaanite theology was the God of rain and thunder. So by him proclaiming on behalf of Yahweh, there's going to be a drought that is showing Yahweh is more powerful in this greater than Baal, right?

Ryan: 48:00

Yeah, when you didn't get to the actual fire from heaven. There's different things with this. You know, Hebrew does not. Hebrew did not have a name for lightning. Okay, so when it talks about fire from heaven, it's probably referring to lightning. We like to make the big you know, a volcano erupting over here.

Ryan: 48:21

Right it was coming down which is cool imagery, but but I think that there's a reason, though, why you need maybe not hold that view, which is this is that the beliefs of Baal was not just that he was the God of rain and thunder, but that he rode the lightning.

Selena: 48:38

So when it?

Ryan: 48:38

talks about. Whatever you know, god favors more. You know is the one true God. Essentially, he was the superior God by having lightning strike the altar of Elijah. And if Baal rides the lightning, then why is Baal? That means Baal likes Yahweh more. Why is Baal endorsing Yahweh? Yeah, you see how they're like. If Baal is going to ride the lightning and he's choosing Yahweh and choosing that altar, that is showing, at the very least, even if it wasn't like, oh, we're monotheistic, now to them they're at least the Yahweh superior, which is what God is trying to do, right, so that's how he's able to go slay all the priests 500 of them of Baal and get them. Start kicking them out of Israel. Right, that's what that whole showdown was.

Ryan: 49:21

It's a polemic. God is using the beliefs to play out his purpose, to show his superiority over it, right? Yeah, the crossing of the Red Sea, because you brought that up earlier. That's another example. There was a mythology within Egypt about using certain magic in the gods and being able to split water. So there's a story where one of some of the magicians of Pharaoh, his daughter or somebody I'm trying to remember it all, but his daughter or somebody had dropped like a necklace in the Nile River and he's like I really want that necklace back. So he gets the magicians to split the water in two so they're able to go out there and grab the necklace, give it back, yeah.

Imran: 50:06

Waters come back together. Pastor had mentioned it. It was that it was like the son of the Pharaoh had all of these women that would go out on the water with him to make him feel better, because he was like sad or whatever. And then one of the women dropped the necklace.

Selena: 50:21

Right, right.

Imran: 50:22

And so the guy was like, hey, split the water so we can get this necklace back to this pretty girl.

Ryan: 50:25

So now you have Egypt chasing the Hebrews. God splits not just the Nile but now the entire Red Sea. Right, he's using the whole idea of blotting out the sun in Exodus. Well, they believe that the sun was raw. One of their superior gods was raw, so by they believe that because this is just basic polytheistic belief right Is that things happen in cycles. So every time the sun rays, that's raw being born, and every time it sets, he's dying and going to the underworld. And there's this continuous cycle of that occurring, right.

Ryan: 51:07

So, by God when raw is coming up and he blots out the sun. The Egyptians would have said raw is being blotted out, which means that his new life is being stopped by Yahweh. So it's creating a sense of hopelessness to the Egyptians. You see what I'm saying. That's a polemic. That is God taking beliefs and myths of the contemporaries of that region and he is playing it out in history to show his superiority.

Selena: 51:34

Does that make sense.

Ryan: 51:35

So I was like I'm God over all of this, all of that.

Ryan: 51:39

So what you see here with David and Goliath is a polemic. It's another example of this. Wow, okay, it would have been understood then for the Philistine champion to come out and say you bring your champion out, we're gonna fight this and see how he's mocking their God. The idea wasn't just simply I'm a superior fighter, take, you know what I mean. The idea was more my God is gonna work and act through me and your God is gonna act and work through you. We're gonna fight this out. So it's not really a battle between David and Goliath, it's a battle between Yahweh and Dagon who is the?

Ryan: 52:15

supreme God of Canaanite theology.

Imran: 52:18

I think that that's interesting, but at least me this is what I'm hearing is that, of all of the what do you call it? The Israelites yeah, the Israelites that were there if that was the way that they thought then, none of them felt strong enough in their faith that God would actually go out and represent them in that combat, and what?

Ryan: 52:38

you actually find is that Goliath had deeper conviction and faith into his God than any of the Israelites had in theirs. Right? Isn't that sad, except for David. So when David goes out and says I come equipped in the name of God, he's saying essentially this is not just a showdown of this. It's because the other thing I think people get wrong, which is the exact opposite point the author's trying to make they think this is an underdog story of this little boy, david, fighting this giant. This is big underdog story of God using the underdog. The reality of what is being painted is it is an underdog story. It's Goliath is the underdog because Goliath is one representing a false God. David is representing the real God. So if there's any underdog in this story, it's Goliath. But the Israelites failed to see that. They completely missed the fact of using what David picked up on was the experience of God. Instead, they were looking so inward at themselves my experience, my stature, my equipment compared to his.

Imran: 53:45

At this point, they've already done the walking around the city seven times, or for seven days.

Ryan: 53:50

That was in Jericho, that was with Joshua. Joshua was a couple hundred years before this. Okay, yeah.

Imran: 53:56

They've had a history already of God.

Ryan: 53:58

Of.

Imran: 53:58

God being faithful to them Right, but I mean, if they also knew that they weren't being faithful to God and it's like, well, is God even gonna come to my defense, to my people's defense, in this moment, because I'm doing all these things wrong or we as a people are doing all these things wrong, kind of like in Judges they were doing all this stuff wrong and God kind of turned away and then raised up a judge to confront that thing that they were doing wrong.

Ryan: 54:22

Yeah, they could have. However, there is a story in 1 Samuel, chapter five, and I'm gonna save it for right now because I wanna get into the actual battle itself that this is gonna feed into. Okay.

Ryan: 54:33

But they had more recent experiences and knowledge of God defeating Dagon, okay. So I could just make a little point about polemics, though, because a lot of people you know, like I'm reading this, I'm like this makes so much more sense to me now, right, like this is everything that I've been like when you just study yourself, you're like this is where I was going, right.

Ryan: 54:54

I just didn't have, and a lot of people and I even had this thought too, and just being an honest skeptic is that this all is great, but why isn't this believed by most? Why isn't it understood? Why isn't this taught? You know what I mean? Yeah, as much as it should, like I'm able to. Obviously there's enough people who are writing books about it within academia, but it's not becoming the common perspective.

Ryan: 55:18

Right, why is that the case? Right, and what I found is particularly with when it comes to the land of Cana. We knew nothing really about the Canaanites and their religion up until about 1930. Oh really, and we didn't even really know anything then. What happened? The big event that happened then was that it's called the Ygarit text. They found a series of about 20,000 tablets that were all within their massive temple library that was in northern Syria. Okay. Which geographically.

Ryan: 55:57

I just want you to kind of follow how this aligns. Right, we talk about the Philistines and we talk about these other people, but they were all united under one actual kingdom. So they had a people, but they were part of a larger kingdom, the Canaanite kingdom, okay, okay, so they find about 20,000 tablets, what they call the Ygarit text, and it was like 1928 or 29. It took about 30 years for them to translate all of them. Okay, so that puts you about 1960s-ish, right? Yeah, once it's translated, that's when it starts finally getting looked at by scholars and academia to start understanding just basic Mesopotamian history. Right, so that takes about another 30 years for that to kind of get understood. Yeah, so it's not until about 1990, that you actually see some biblical scholars looking at this to understand references to scripture. But up until that point the only reference we had of anything Canaanite in terms of religion was what we got from the Bible.

Selena: 56:59

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Ryan: 57:01

So you hear of Dagon, you hear of Baal Astoroth, all of them. We knew nothing about them outside of the biblical text. Some of the things we'd learn is that, well, there's a couple of things. One you see God's providence playing at the time that the Israelites are brought out of Egypt into the land of Cana which is in the south of this little empire.

Ryan: 57:23

Ygarit was the, I guess, the capital of the Canaanite kingdom, which was in like all the way up in northern Syria. Okay, so the northern side was where the capital was. So we're talking about the southern part of a kingdom. What's happening, what we learn, is that the same time Joshua is entering into the land of Cana, you have what they call the sea people, who keep coming in, raiding and pillaging the northern part of the kingdom. Okay, now there's all. These people have all sorts of conspiracy theories about who the sea people are because it's referenced they're references.

Imran: 57:57

Yeah, they're like who are the sea people. Well, that's way too far away.

Selena: 58:01

It could be just Rome, or I mean, I guess on the time depends on the time.

Imran: 58:05

No, Rome wasn't there, yet it was what most people actually agree with. Is that that's not there yet?

Ryan: 58:12

No, it was the tribal Greeks, so even before Greece was really in a unified empire. They're like all of these a bunch of series of islands, right yeah? Like all those people, the sea people. They learned how to fare and they started raiding.

Imran: 58:26

That was the big thing about Greece is that they had a navy. Right, yeah, they learned. An empire at the time had a navy.

Ryan: 58:32

So in the northern part of the kingdom they're getting raided and they're at war with the sea people. At that same time you got millions of Hebrews invading in the south. So if you have this kingdom with your armies and you're being invaded from the north and the south, what are you gonna defend? Probably whatever's closest to your capital, which was in the north. So that left them really weak in the south.

Ryan: 58:58

So when God led them into the land of promise, he chose a time you see what I'm saying that was where they were the most weak and vulnerable to make that successful Because if they would have chosen the other time, they would have been able to come down and crush them, but they couldn't do that because of the sea people.

Imran: 59:14

You see what I'm saying. They're all folks up to the north.

Ryan: 59:17

But we just learned that right Couple other things we learned about the Canaanite Pantheon. So we hear about Dagon, we hear about Bale and Asteroth all them. What we learned is Dagon was the supreme, the top God of Canaanite theology. Bale is like his son, so this is like Zeus and Apollo, right, jupiter, mars.

Ryan: 59:39

there's always like that supreme top God of the Pantheon right, dagon was the top dog within Canaanite belief. Why does that matter? Because after this whole series of events, you see this shift in biblical texts that it no longer becomes about Dagon, it becomes about Bale oh interesting. And Bale eventually becomes almost worshiped as the more supreme God within their Pantheon. Why did that happen? A lot of it has to do with what we're seeing in 1 Samuel God defeats Dagon.

Selena: 1:00:14

Okay, you see what I'm saying.

Ryan: 1:00:15

Like God is defeating Dagon and then he goes and he goes after his son. Then God defeats Bale and then God starts to. You see what I'm saying. So you see this progression of God defeating the Mesopotamian gods. He starts in Egypt. Now, as he defeats Egypt and rescues them out of Egypt and defeated those gods, he now shifts his war. What's?

Imran: 1:00:34

fascinating there is that it's like God's showing his power in a way that they would understand and that they would also come to serve him. Cause just going to them and saying it's like God is Lord of all, you should worship him, just like today. If you go to someone who doesn't believe in God and just say, like there is a God, god is overall, you should worship him. They're doing like. I don't know what any of that means. Right, so it's like, but here you're seeing how God's displaying his power and authority in a way that those people would understand, and you see it in Egypt as well, when the Israelites are leaving. It's like God's displaying his power and authority and showing that I'm over all of these. Through all of the. What are the really bad things? He does starts with a P, the, where he brings, like the, the plagues. That's what I'm looking for. It's like through the plagues, he's showing how he is over all one thing Everyone was a different.

Imran: 1:01:26

God's day Yep exactly Over that whole period and then ultimately when, when he splits the Red Sea. It's like that kind of great showing of power there. So it's like he's showing who he is, in a way, moses using his staff. Exactly, he's showing who he is. His staffs were big to Egypt, yeah, yeah.

Ryan: 1:01:41

If you ever look at the hieroglyphics, all the pharaohs, all have a staff. Yeah.

Imran: 1:01:46

And it's all pointed out in the kind of the same way, in the same way, in the same way.

Ryan: 1:01:48

Within the Egyptian belief, each one having different precedent. What's interesting is God gives Moses the least of the staffs within Egyptian belief.

Imran: 1:01:56

And does the most with it.

Ryan: 1:01:57

And he does the most with it, playing out their myths in history using the least of the rods, like that's what I'm saying. Is God trolling them? He just I'm trolling your God. When he says I am a jealous God, this is what he means. He's like I'm going to defeat all of them, Right? He?

Imran: 1:02:12

starts to teach it. That's so awesome.

Ryan: 1:02:13

Goes to Cana right, then he starts taking out the Greeks and then, when you get to Jesus' times and the first century church, you see him attacking Romans, outcycling the Romans. Right, Like it's just. But there's also a scary warning that we're going to see here with Goliath right Cause a very astute young child of mine, when we were talking about this, asked a very fair question that God not love Goliath? Oh, you see what I'm saying. So what was it about Goliath that essentially condemned him to this feat?

Selena: 1:02:53

Yeah, I think mocking God.

Ryan: 1:02:55

He was, but everybody was, and in fact, worshiping other gods is a mocking of him, right? Like, really, if anything, you see a passionate zeal within Goliath, like Goliath would have been a great ally to have on the side of God's army. Yeah, imagine that Goliath as zealous and passionate for Yahweh as he was for Dago, right? So there's a piece with that, and this is why the battle kind of matters.

Imran: 1:03:21

All right, that's it for this week and I'm so excited to get into this with you next week on real Bible stories. All right, so we're partnered with Palms Church and 29 Palms and if you'd like to ask us questions, just join us on our Facebook page, and all of those links are available in the description below. We cannot wait to engage with you and join with you again next week on the next episode of Real Bible Stories.