Ep 86 Submit to Submission: A Real Discussion About Biblical Submission (Our First Video Episode!)

Join us on Video Here: https://youtu.be/HQ3oPENxW60 Special Content on our video version. 

Hey listeners, Imran here. My wife Selena and I, alongside Pastor Ryan Brown, are excited to invite you into the vibrant atmosphere of the Palms Baptist Church studio!

Delving into the intricacies of biblical submission, Pastor Ryan Brown aids us in navigating the often misunderstood passages and cultural misconceptions that have long surrounded this topic. Our conversation is a tapestry of personal anecdotes, theological insight, and a challenge to the historical misapplications of scripture. We illuminate the core of Christian marriage, emphasizing the strength in mutual respect and the strength that comes from mutual submission. Over this discussion we will weave a narrative that invites introspection and acknowledges the delicate balance of upholding personal convictions while engaging in the dance of submission within our relationships.

This episode is particularly special as we stand on the cusp of change, not only embracing a new medium but also preparing for my military relocation to Quantico, Virginia. We share the impact our journey has had on listeners far and wide, like the truck driver who found salvation through listening to the podcast while traversing the nation, and we ponder the future of this podcast that has grown dear to so many people.

As we close this chapter, we are filled with gratitude for the growth and shared experiences gained over the past 2 years. We reflect on the evolution of our perspectives and the strengthening of our hearts and convictions. We discuss the broader implications of submission in societal structures, the resilience born from adversity, and the transformative power of understanding and honor in relationships. As we part ways for a break, we leave you with this truth: God is King. Continue to study his word and continue to learn more about him.

Join us for this meaningful episode as we turn the page, ready for the blessings and challenges that await us on the horizon.

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Transcript

Imran: 0:05

Hello and welcome to Real Bible Stories. Join us as we deep dive into the historic, religious, cultural, political and emotional context surrounding the real lives of real people in the Bible and the stories we've all grown to love. Hello and welcome to Real Bible Stories. I'm your host, imran Ward, and we are joined by my wife, selena.

Imran: 0:29

Hi and our teacher, Pastor Ryan Brown. What's going on everyone? I'm sure that if you're tuned in here, you're noticing that something's a little bit different. We are now doing this on video, All right, so really what's happening is that by the way, Imran did not tell us we were doing this on video so I mean we showed up and he showed up looking great.

Imran: 0:49

The rest of us are uh, it's like huh, I don't know, I basically figured it out on the way over. I was like, if I'm not, if I wasn't gonna do it, now I'm not gonna do it, so we're gonna try it out. So we are in the new uh palms baptist church studio that we've been working on the last like two months in here, and so this is now the first kind of large format broadcast that we're doing inside of the room. So we're just taking the podcast and now you are now seated in the room with us as we enjoy a real Bible stories message from our pastor, pastor Ryan Brown and our coffee, which usually it's more bougie than this.

Imran: 1:26

Yeah, so they got the cups and the milk and all the things.

Ryan: 1:31

But I think you got to tell them what's going on.

Imran: 1:34

Well, why are we?

Ryan: 1:35

here, and why are we not? Why are we not bougie today?

Imran: 1:39

So usually we're doing this recording in my house, but what is going on now is that we're actually packing up our house.

Imran: 1:47

So if you've been listening to a couple episodes, you know that I'm in the Marine Corps and so I actually got orders over to Quantico, Virginia, so I'll be heading out there in the next month and a half to two months, so my wife's heading out, Selena's heading out in the next couple weeks, and then I'll be heading out a few weeks after that in the next couple of weeks, and then I'll be heading out a few weeks after that. So this episode we actually I wanted to spruce it up and we're actually sprucing it up because it's going to be our last one for a while. We're going to be pausing and really praying a lot about what this transition is looking like and if we can really continue the podcast in the way that we really want to while we're in Virginia and and Ryan's here. I mean, God made a path for us to build this studio in our last two months here. So that's, uh, this like this didn't exist yeah.

Imran: 2:33

We didn't have an option two months ago and now we have a really, really nice place where Ryan can come in and teach from um, even if we're doing it kind of disparate. So just keep us in your prayers as we transition over to Virginia. Keep Ryan in your prayers as he continues to grow as a young pastor and teaching the youth of our church and also leading this pastoral ministry as well. That is Real Bible Stories.

Imran: 2:59

I actually got such an awesome story from him right before we started where a truck driver that goes to our church told him that this podcast is what led him to, uh, become saved, that the, the clarity and the detail that came from the kind of the, the in-depth studies that we do on the podcast, is what really drew him um in to the family completely, and so I know that this podcast is touching lives. I know that it's um, I know that definitely for me, it's grown my depth and my understanding. It's really made it so that God just becomes more and more real every time we do this and, ryan, I truly appreciate you for that.

Ryan: 3:36

I appreciate you all and I'll tell you this Emran chose a doozy of a week to record this one of a week to record this one, to make this kind of our last one for break, because we're going to hit probably one of the most seemingly offensive verses.

Imran: 3:50

Controversial.

Ryan: 3:51

Yeah, in the Bible, but it's actually very beautiful once you understand it. So don't listen to it and then just click off because it makes you so angry Stick with it, oh my gosh yeah. But the reason I chose this cause I didn't know this was going to be our last one for a while Um, it's cause. This is actually when we first started this when we first met yeah, not even started this when we first met. My introduction to Emron and Selena was like hey, uh, our marriage is in shambles.

Ryan: 4:17

Like can you save us and I'm like I can't save you to anything, right.

Imran: 4:20

Like um you, you know only god can do that. I was told to come talk to you.

Ryan: 4:24

Yeah, and he's like well, I was told you're the guy and I was like, okay, well, you know what's going on and and some of the initial I get, and I'm just not counseling but like discussions, yeah, discussions that we were having just about what was going on and I had brought up this study, um, because it was one that was somewhat recent at that time, and um, they've been asking to do this since we began the podcast and we've never done it.

Selena: 4:47

And this was almost two and a half years ago.

Imran: 4:49

This was so. I was like you know. It's also like one of the most popular studies you've done at the church. It's like the women's ministry talked about it.

Ryan: 4:55

It is. It is one, yeah, it is one, that is. It is one people have remembered, that is true, and but one. I did this for them because we can't go on break and with the uncertainty of the future and what that's going to look like and not actually have done it. But to your point, right, with this study, you know what? Before I even get into that story, I think we should read it first, just so people know what we're talking about.

Imran: 5:23

Okay, yeah, absolutely.

Ryan: 5:25

We're going to be dancing around this, but we're going to anchor here because this is one of those, like I said, it gets everybody's feathers a little ruffled.

Selena: 5:35

So get ready, go for it, selena All right, yeah, so our verse is 1 Peter 3, verses 1 through 7. Oh, this is.

Imran: 5:44

Peter Peter 3, verses 1 through 7.

Selena: 5:45

Wives in the same way. Submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit which is of great worth in God's sight.

Selena: 6:17

For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. Of the past, who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands. Like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her Lord, you are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear Husbands. In the same way, be considerate as you live with your wives and treat them with respect, as the weaker partner and as heirs, with you, of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Imran: 6:52

And where is that from again?

Selena: 6:54

First Peter, chapter three, one through seven.

Imran: 6:58

One through seven. Okay, thank you so much. So, actually, before the podcast started, brian told us the scripture. I didn't hear him say the scripture but I was reading the scripture. Yeah, she was reading it and I was like oh man, that sounds like proverbs.

Selena: 7:10

31 and you got like three long answers, not proverbs.

Imran: 7:12

31, I was like oh well, then it sounds like first corinthians, because I just um a few few months ago now uh, I was going through first corinthians, um, for my sister's wedding. I did a tribute. What's it called? A toast. I did a toast and I quoted some scripture out of first Corinthians, and Ryan's like nope, not there either. And I was like is this, is this Paul at all? And he's like nope, not that either. I was like all right, well, I have no idea. It's like I know these words, but I said.

Ryan: 7:45

It's one of those that if you do not understand what is going on with that statement, it could sound very abrasive, right? So, women be subject to your husbands right. Call him Lord. Men like, even when it goes to the men, right. Men likewise like be considerate of your wife or she is the weaker partner. Right. Like it's even offensive. What version of?

Imran: 8:07

this Bible is this it is NIM.

Ryan: 8:10

So we're going to break this down, because not only does it one, is that not really the point being made? It's actually teaching us to a much higher ideal than a Christian ideal that we don't talk about much, and when we do talk about it, we talk about it like almost in the confines of only exclusively marriage and um, which is submission right.

Ryan: 8:35

And um, submission is a very Christian concept. It is to men, it is to women, it is to husbands, it is to wives, it is, it is to everybody. Um, this is not something just for women and wives, right? This is an expectation of every single believer who calls Jesus Lord. It's to submit Submission, right, about this particular verse or this series of text. Peter's actually not leading the reader to a point about marriage. Oh really, he's using marriage as an example for something else. So the whole point of the text isn't even actually meant to be teaching you about marriage. Now, it's exposing a truth or a reality about it, but it it's not like he's not teaching on marriage at this point. Does that make sense? It actually belongs to a much larger main point and this is like a substantiating point to that higher message. So I would also say that submission in itself, it's not as black and white as people like to think. It is Okay.

Ryan: 9:49

You know what I mean. Like like this is one of those verses that unfortunately has been abused um used to abuse and suppress women for for um you know, throughout history.

Imran: 10:03

Let me take it out of context.

Ryan: 10:04

Um, you know, you, you, let me take it out of context. You know you take something like this out of context and you take only that, not understanding the larger reality of what it belongs to. It's used against women, and you know. If you know, it says right here in the Bible, right?

Ryan: 10:20

And if you are not equipped to understand what it's, what it's really saying like you silence a voice right where if she's trying to be faithful and God honoring as a woman and she may be like that doesn't feel right or doesn't seem to make sense. But at the same time the Bible says it and I know Christ is real, but I struggle with that. So I guess I'll you know. Guess I'll do it. I know Christ is real but I struggle with that, so I guess I'll you know, I guess I'll do it. I don't know. You know what I mean.

Ryan: 10:48

Yeah, um, so they end up trying to live to a biblical principle faithfully, in confusion, and that can, but that can also leave you open to exploit as well.

Imran: 11:00

Correct, so even if you're not, even if you're not living in a society that's intentionally suppressing or oppressing women or whomever. If you're saying like, well, I must submit because that's Christ-like, but you're not doing it with the right context in mind, you can be opening yourself up to abuse and exploit as well you know. So that's speaking.

Ryan: 11:21

And it has. It has been used for that Right, and the sad reality is and we're going to talk about it more in depth here in a second but you know, the church over the years hasn't done the best job of really explaining what is a man and what is a woman.

Imran: 11:39

What is a man and what is a woman?

Ryan: 11:41

Right, you know, I think the church does well with understanding the value that human beings were created as, and I think it does a good job of explaining identity and purpose and all those things collectively. But what are the differentials that separate men and women? Because there are, they're obvious, right? And you look in culture right now of you know, everybody's surprised by the fact that there's so much confusion around gender identity in this culture and and, and the truth is is that I don't, I'm not sure a lot of people really understand, um, you know, what a man and a godly man and a godly woman is like. What does that really mean? And so when you misunderstand that and you read a verse like this, it opens the door for a lot more other stuff that could be thrown in there. Some craziness, right? Yeah.

Ryan: 12:37

And no, I was getting ready to tell the story. But, um, when I first taught this, we were all going through, first Peter. Um, I was the discipleship pastor at that time. I was teaching the men on Thursdays. No, I'm sorry, I was teaching the men Tuesdays. The women were doing the same Bible study on Thursdays.

Imran: 12:56

So we were going through the same material and you were teaching it as well.

Ryan: 12:59

No, oh okay, I was not, but we were doing the same material. So my idea for this particular night is I had I said hey, as we're talking through this verse, like I reached out to Trissa Pittman who was on the podcast at one point and said, hey, can you just grab you and just a couple other strong women and join the men tonight, and I just I want you in there as we, as I teach through this, so you can provide a feminine perspective of this verse, what these things and concepts mean, Because people don't realize how vastly different men and women are. Like we are Like people know we're different.

Imran: 13:32

I think people realize it, but it's like for some reason we in recent years have refused to admit it, like most of all of human history. We understand that we're different.

Ryan: 13:43

No people understand. But I don't think people understand how different and a lot of the thing with that is, because that's how God made us. So it says that in Genesis 127, let us make them both male and female in our image. That means the image of men was out of God's image and the image of women are out of God's image. They took the feminine qualities of God. We took the masculine qualities of God. We took the masculine qualities of God.

Ryan: 14:11

So one of the good thing is that you should actually recognize the difference between men and women and, as a woman, you should be looking at men and saying what does understanding men particularly if you're married, right, like my husband, what is he communicating to me about the character of God? Because he was created in his image, so the things that are central to his desires and his purpose and what he needs, which seems to be so much different for me, like what does that show me about who God is? And men likewise, we should be looking at women like well, as women are like, created out of his character and his in his image, and taking on that quality. What is what do they teach us about God?

Imran: 14:45

Yeah, right. So that's kind of fascinating too, cause once when you put those, if like with marriage, the concept of marriage, um, I guess the closest to an image of God we would have would be the man and the woman together They'll be closer to the full character and unity of the full identity and image of God. Yeah, that's fascinating identity and image of God in marriage.

Ryan: 15:03

Right and um, you know, women I think I was just actually talking to my wife about this right before I came. Um, there just seems to be this thing, you know, with women, where it's they either get into this place of either they feel a place of insufficiency that I'm not enough, Like I'm not. I'm not enough as a wife, I'm not enough doing enough as a mother, doing enough as a daughter or sister, or you know whatever. And if they're not feeling the sense of shame of not being good enough, they're, on the other end, being told you're too much right, You're you're you're.

Ryan: 15:40

You're too sensitive, you're being too dramatic, you're being too emotional, you're right.

Ryan: 15:44

Particularly things. Men tell them Right, and they've then fully. Then they're like okay, so now I'm being too much, but if I'm less of that, it's not who I feel like I need to be, but then I'm insufficient. There it's like where is that sweet spot for women? And men need that too, right. The reason I'm kind of focusing on the women, though, is because of this verse, right. Right, the reason I'm kind of focusing on the women, though, is because of this verse, right, and this is really kind of where we're going to be anchored to understanding this a little bit more. But my point was is that I brought in the women and to this men's Bible study to get their perspective, and it went really, really great, like it was awesome. So Trista was like hey, can you do the same thing for us Thursday? I was like you want me to bring some men in? She's like well, can you just teach it? Like I think just you being there providing that perspective would be enough. I'm like, oh, that'd be great. Yeah, awesome, right.

Imran: 16:30

Yeah.

Ryan: 16:31

Not thinking about the fact that I'm coming in to teach on submission to your husband, and so I, man, walking in with this group of women, I could tell you what the looks. I got the tension in there. When we first started I was like, oh boy, I was not prepared for this and um, why didn't she warn me? Oh yeah, it was, it was, it was palpable, right.

Ryan: 16:56

And it turned out fine. It's a texture in the air, yeah.

Ryan: 16:59

It turned out fine, but it but initially right, like there's cause. It's one of those verses. So as we get into this, let me just kind of, I think, crush a couple myths about submission as a whole. Okay, cause, like I said, it's a larger Christian concept, right? I think some people believe that submission in itself is like almost like it shows that you're weak, that you're weaker. So if you're to be an alpha man right, an alpha male to submit means I have to go be a beta. Yeah, I think that's definitely a big cultural thing, it is.

Imran: 17:35

Yeah, as one that interacts with hundreds and hundreds of 18-year-olds every day Marines right.

Imran: 17:42

Young Marines of our nation's fighting core. Uh, it is so important to them to be seen as strong at the expense of reason, at the expense of uh intelligence, at the expense of slowing down and making clear and concise decisions. Uh, they're more focused on being cool or being out and above than doing something that makes sense. You know, it's like if this guy can jump here, I'm gonna try and jump up here. Oh, and I'm gonna try and jump up here. Oh, I broke my ankle, you know, but I was cool when I did it. You know, it's like that there's, and I guess I was there too, yeah, that's definitely me well it's like, yeah, that was you in high school For some reason.

Ryan: 18:27

I married you. But you also see, though, like you know, in particularly and I see this with women too, women bicker probably more than men do to be. I mean, would you disagree with that?

Imran: 18:36

I mean, I tend to see How's Christ Women's Fellowship with the bickering?

Ryan: 18:40

Right, there is a lot of drama.

Imran: 18:42

I'm just saying she's like I'm not about to confess anything. I know you don't want to.

Ryan: 18:48

I'm not going to confess anything. Generally there's more drama within those circles. But I will say this when I see it with men right is that when you see those, you got two men who are their egos are matched and where one of them just needs to submit Right, and there's generally always some sort of construct or like there there's a boundary to understand. Now, like, as a man, I need to submit to this other man in this issue, in this situation.

Imran: 19:17

And you know, there's like an established chain of command or something rules or like rules of manhood Right, like, we just understand or like.

Ryan: 19:24

but I mean even beyond that like rules of manhood right, like we just understand or like. But I mean even beyond that like. And part of what we're going to talk about tonight is like a hierarchy of look, if you're in church and you're in it with your against your pastor right, there comes a point where you just you have to submit to your pastor. You're told to do that right. Marriage there comes a point where you have to submit to your wife, you have to submit to your husband, like, there's just certain you know, boundaries that are set with that. And what you see is when men feel like, particularly men to man to man, or woman to woman, it's like, well, if I, if I submit, then I'm going to be seen as the weaker the beta.

Ryan: 19:56

Right, and that's not true. A submission takes strength. Sometimes it takes more strength than it is to continue going Right. The other thing I would say too is.

Imran: 20:05

I think that to submit is different than to be kind of broken into that submission, so like if you were like I'm not going to submit, I'm not going to sit, and then you get broken into that and now you are forced to submit, then I can, I guess could be seen as weak.

Ryan: 20:31

But if you submit out of strength of understanding, like it is not my place to be, that right now, well, forced submission is forced submission is slavery, ooh, right. So being forced to submit to something, that that's, that's tyranny, that that is not, particularly as we're speaking to scripture right Is? That's not the freedom that we have in Christ. You know God's not a tyrant. So forced submission, you know that's not the kind of submission we're talking about, right, and I think that's a good that you brought that up, because that's different Right.

Selena: 20:55

So to submit? Is you choose to submit yourself?

Ryan: 20:59

Right, yeah, it is a choice and I think, like another piece of this, it also doesn't necessarily mean like obedience in the sense of like, like, sometimes submission can be accepting the reality of a situation of a structure of things, particularly powers and things of that sort, outside of your control. Yeah, there's just certain things you can't control, that's true. Right no-transcript. Right and you just have to submit to that fact, Like I have to submit to the fact that you know our government, you know, isn't always matching my ideals, yeah.

Imran: 21:33

It's human beings leading human beings. It's imperfect people leading imperfect people.

Ryan: 21:36

It's broken people leading a broken country and you have to submit to that reality if you're going to be effective to the purposes of God and his kingdom right.

Imran: 21:45

And even just to bring that down, if in a marriage, like fundamentally speaking it's a broken man trying to lead in a marriage, it's a broken woman trying to lead. In a marriage it's a broken man trying to submit, it's a broken woman trying to submit, and so that's never going to be done perfectly either, and so you have to submit to that reality as well that your spouse isn't perfect and they're not going to be perfect.

Ryan: 22:09

If you want to be good at submission, you have to accept the reality that the person you married, the person you work for, your government you know what I mean Whatever that is you have to accept the fact that they are broken people. They're not perfect, so your marriage is not going to be perfect. They're not going to be exactly how you want them to be 100% of the time. Yeah.

Ryan: 22:28

Right Like, submission requires that. And I would also say, I think, another thing people get confused with this just because you submit does not mean you agree. Submission does not mean agreement. It actually assumes the opposite. Right Like, I don't have to submit. Like if I got home from work today and my wife was like hey, I just bought you this three-day chartered fishing trip in San Diego. Wow. Like, all right, honey, I'm going to submit to you in this.

Imran: 22:58

I'm going to go on my three-day chartered fishing trip.

Ryan: 23:01

Submit to accepting this trip. You know what I'm saying? That's not submission. You submit to this gift. You submit to things you disagree with. So, submission actually assumes disagreement. So just be clear, right? If a Christian principle is submission, then that means that there's going to be things as a believer you disagree with that you have to submit to.

Imran: 23:23

I mean Jesus literally says you have to pick up your cross each day and die to yourself daily you know, it's like, which assumes that your flesh wants something. You want something, but you have to be willing to submit yourself to the things of God. And so if you're willing to assume, if you're you know of the kingdom and you're saved, then you're willing to work on submitting yourself to Christ. Why not also work on submitting yourself to this life partner that you know?

Ryan: 23:50

Christ has blessed you with. This is what we're going to talk about, right, because? So submission as a whole, right, like I think some people think that if I submit them, that's that's a admission that I am wrong. Right, like, if you and me are in a disagreement and I'm like, all right, I'm just going to submit to Emran in this, that, like, that's just a confirmation that, all right, emran, you were right, I was wrong. Right, that's not true.

Ryan: 24:14

Um, what biblical submission looks like is saying I don't agree with you in this, but I will submit to it, like with you, knowing the fact that I disagree with it, but I'm going to submit to you. Just, please be considerate of me, which is what it's talking about here in terms of marriage. Um, be considerate of my perspective of this right as I go into the submission. But then not bringing it up after submission is not saying, all right, I'm like, particularly in marriage, right, I'm not. Submission is not. I'm going to submit to you in this decision. Then you make that decision and then, months later, you bring up the fact that you made this poor decision. I didn't want to even do this, I didn't want to, and you bring up that fight again, or that argument or that debate again. It's like that's not submission either. Right, like some, but that's just you tabling the argument right. That's not real submission either.

Imran: 25:02

that's true and then but I mean the reverse of that too if, um, if that submission does take place, it would be tyrannical for the, the, the other party, to see themselves as the victor and to lord over and it's like I knew I was right.

Ryan: 25:15

You know, that's not what it means. You know, then, them submitting to you doesn't mean that you're right. Them submitting to you doesn't mean that they also think you're right. Right, and I think people I think particularly like married people need to have this conversation to understand this right. Like if selena submits to you, that does not mean selena agrees with you or you've changed her mind yeah where she now.

Ryan: 25:37

She thinks you're right, right, it's understanding that and almost in the essence of that, that should turn your heart. She's like man, like I know she doesn't agree with me and she's submitting to me like that. That should almost soften you a bit, to be like hey, okay, hold on, let's talk about this a little more than yeah, and what I mean, what that can lead to if you're doing that well is effective compromise, you know.

Imran: 26:00

so it's like, okay, let's continue to work through this. Yes, there's going to be some things where it's black or white. We have to make a decision, but the vast majority of things, there's a compromise there somewhere, as long as you're willing to be open and honest and have that conversation. But just a lot of people don't. They stick on their side and it's like it's my way or the highway. But that's not effective communication, that's not effective compromise. That's not submission communication. That's not effective compromise.

Selena: 26:25

That's not submission, that's not building the marriage. You know, right, yeah, and submission feels like a sacrifice because you truly think you're right. So it was like party A thinks they're right, party B thinks they're right.

Ryan: 26:36

And yeah, the disagreement, right, um, it assumes disagreement. Like you can't, you just don't submit to things you agree with. You know what I mean?

Ryan: 26:45

Like so, you just have them I also think that that's very telling, the fact that how often submission is mentioned and is told of our expectation to it. Um, that we don't follow some fairytale Bible. It's a very practical, real Bible. It's very real about the fact that you're going to have disputes. You're going to have disagreements among believers, within the church, in your marriage, at your workplace, with your kids, right, like you're going to have disagreements. You need to be good at submission if you want to have a sustained witness to the world. The last thing I would also say is submission is not cowardice either. Um, kind of like it assumes disagreement. It also submission assumes strength. It is. It is not like it. You could say in terms of, like proper English, if you get really angry at me, to where you like, buck up and you're like, hey, if we don't come to terms soon, we're going to fight. Yeah, and I get really scared because you're big and you go to the gym and I'm like, okay, okay, okay, that's not really me submitting, that's just me being afraid.

Imran: 28:00

It's just conceding, you're just conceding that fight. Conceding.

Ryan: 28:03

Right, Um so. But real submission looks like is you buck up and I'm like, well, I could buck up too, Right, and I could, I could throw a punch, or you know, we could do this. You know what I mean, but then choosing not to right, it takes strength. It is meek meekness you have. You cannot be meek if you're weak, nor can you be submissive if you're not meek Right. So submission requires strength from from both people. Yeah.

Ryan: 28:32

A weak person has a really hard time submitting because they're just not in control of their emotions, right.

Ryan: 28:39

And they're just following their, following their emotions wherever it takes them. Yeah, following their emotions wherever it takes them into, whatever decision, whatever words, whatever actions they want to do to, you know, improve themselves, right? Submission requires self-control. Submission requires strength. Submission requires, like all the fruit of the spirit, to do that consistently well. That doesn't mean something like I'm married. I live in reality, right, like me and my wife. There are times where our worst fights is when one of the two of us it's like that perfect storm where we're both exhausted, where we're tired, and then maybe something else happened that we're just already emotionally charged and it takes a while for us both to come to submission to one another. And how that often leads is sometimes a really bad argument that the next day we're embarrassed. By then we both come mutually submissive to each other. It's like man, if we would have just started that way, none of this would have happened. Yeah, right. So, like it's, a lack of submission is often driven out of pride, right, it requires humility to be submissive as well.

Imran: 29:47

Oh, absolutely so all those it's like the opposite of pride would be humility, Right and you need humility to be submissive.

Ryan: 29:55

So that's my point it takes a holistic Christian life to go to this Christian ideal of submission.

Selena: 30:06

I brought it up, I think, a couple of episodes ago, when we first had our marriage counseling and his pastor brought up Ephesians, which is kind of similar to the submit yourselves. I did not take that very well, even though I grew up Christian, but it rode me the wrong way.

Ryan: 30:24

We're going to talk about that verse in Ephesians as well.

Imran: 30:29

Yeah, I think it's worth the question and we can.

Ryan: 30:31

We can hold it for later, cause it will come up.

Imran: 30:35

Seven years later into marriage.

Ryan: 30:37

But what I want to do is kind of now paint. I guess this is more of the key to this verse is more literary than it is cultural. I mean there's some cultural things loaded behind this, but we've talked about this before, right, where often when we read our Bibles we read it very Western. So chapter three, we think immediately, new thought, right. So when chapter three starts off with this verse, right, wives, submit to your husband, we naturally go. You assume that that's where it started. Okay. So the main point, like we're on a new thought, a new point, and this new thought a new point is Peter teaching?

Ryan: 31:16

about marriage right, but, as we've talked about previous episodes, right, that's not the case. These chapters and verses do not exist until previous episodes. Right, that's not the case. These chapters and verses do not exist until medieval. Europe right by a French monk when he decided to do this, you know, based off his personal opinion. So this was all written together, right? This was all clumped together as a free flow of thought.

Imran: 31:38

Was this a letter as well? Was Peter first Peter a letter?

Ryan: 31:40

This was a letter, yeah, To which 1 Peter a letter. This was a letter. Yeah, to which church? So with that, I want you to back up to chapter 2, verse 13, because this whole text operates under the umbrella. It is a child of this larger parent verse of what, the main point of what's actually being discussed when he says this. Okay, so I'm going to read this. This is uh. First Peter, chapter two, verse 13. I'm going to read through 17. Okay, so this is.

Ryan: 32:13

I just want to say this is the primary point. Okay, this is, this is the ideal, this is what Peter is teaching on, this is what he's trying to communicate to his audience. This is it. This is what the point they needed to walk away with.

Imran: 32:29

Okay, and so this is 13 through 17. Yep, all right. Submit yourselves, for the Lord's sake, to every human authority, whether to the emperor as a supreme authority, or to governors who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that, by doing good, you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil. Live as God's slaves. Show proper respect to everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God, honor the emperor.

Ryan: 33:08

Now understand honor the emperor. It's no different than it is today. That's no different than saying hey, everybody, show proper respect to everyone you meet. That includes Democrats, that includes Republicans, that mega Republicans, everybody right. Show respect to everyone, love the church and the family of believers. Fear God and honor Joe Biden. Oh my gosh, yeah, you know what I'm saying Honor the emperor. Now some listeners may be like well, what's wrong with that? And there's a whole nother piece of listeners

Ryan: 33:45

are like see, that's a problem. Right, here's the thing. Wherever you land there, what was happening to these believers by the emperor was they were being persecuted economically pretty much everywhere Some remnants of the Roman Empire. They were being persecuted physically. They were suffering, they were being thrown in prison. There was a lot going on. Right, it was a little bit. It wasn't like across the entire empire. It was different everywhere you went, but to them they're like they're under the kingship of the emperor.

Ryan: 34:21

And what does he tell them? Honor the emperor. This is coming from the same Peter, right? If you remember um, who he himself was thrown in prison um, and was rescued um, like all the way back in Jerusalem, right? Paul um, beaten, stoned, thrown in prison multiple times, who was a Roman citizen, who had incurred all that also under the Roman emperor, Right, Like? So the point is, is that, like, wherever you're at, I I highly doubt that, as a Christian in America under Joe Biden, you have experienced any of that because of your faith Right, you may have gone to prison under Joe Biden, but it's not because you were a Christian right.

Ryan: 35:02

It's probably because you did something bad Right Um under Joe Biden.

Imran: 35:04

But it's not because you were a Christian, right, it's probably because you did something bad, right. Just for some reference to, because I was reading kind of the opening in chapter one. So just to reference, like who Peter's speaking to? Chapter one, verse one it says to God's elect exiles, scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, galatia, cappadocia, asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood. So it's like he's speaking to a pretty broad audience even here.

Ryan: 35:39

All across multiple regions right. But I think the primary point is this right In verse 13,. Right, this is what he's teaching on Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake, okay. Yeah.

Ryan: 35:52

Every one of us. Um, for the Lord's sake, to every human authority, whether to the emperor as the Supreme authority, or to governors or those who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and commend those who do. Right. Now, listen, for it is God's will that by doing good, you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. And I want you to see that literary structure there, okay, because it really follows kind of these three things. Okay, there is a submissive proclamation Okay, submit to, right, you need to submit to. In this particular case, submit yourselves, for the Lord's sake, right. Then the second thing is that there's some sort of human authority identified, okay, to every human authority, which is, again, this is the overarching point. And then there's a mechanism by which is given of how you silence the talk of ignorant and foolish people, right, in this particular case, it says by doing good, okay. So the whole point is submit yourselves to Jesus to every excuse me, submit yourselves, for the sake of Christ, to every human authority, for it is by God's will that by you doing good, you will silence ignorant talk and the fools, right? So then what he does is from here he gives a set of examples of what that looks like. Okay, so he's taken very specific situations to these people of what was common then to give them examples of this is what that kind of submission looks like. The first one he into the first example are slaves submitting to their masters. So, verse 18 through 20, excuse me, slaves in reverent fear of God. Now notice how he ended right. Show respect to everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Okay, so, slaves in reverent fear of God, submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also those who are harsh.

Ryan: 37:58

For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering, because they are conscious of God. But how is it? To your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good, right, because how are we supposed to sound ignorant talk by doing good? So if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, it is commendable before God. So you see, it's that same structure, right? There's a submissive proclamation slaves in reverent fear of God, submit yourselves to your masters. Right, human authority identified to your masters Mechanism for silencing ignorant talk.

Ryan: 38:34

For it is commendable if someone bears up under the path or the pain of unjust suffering, right. So now he's saying and you're, and you're suffering by doing, if you are suffering, cause you were doing good like that is commendable before God and people see that right, just like Christ on the cross. When that thief looks over and says this man has done nothing wrong, he is submitting himself to the pain of unjust suffering. That's what Christ did right, which is exactly what the whole next point is, which I'm going to. Before we get there, though, we talked earlier right Is that submission doesn't mean agreement, right, submission doesn't mean agreement, Right. So he just told Peter, just told slaves that you're to submit to your masters, whether they're good and considerate or they're harsh. Right Paul in 1 Timothy 1, I think it's verse 10, he states slave masters are one of the most abhorrent type of sins. Anyone who has ever I hear this a lot. Well, the Bible never condemns slavery Like no it does.

Ryan: 39:41

Yeah 1 Timothy 1.10. Paul says slave masters. It's listed in one of the worst kind of sins. Okay. So Paul hates slavery. He hates the concept of it. It is not of God, it is counter to the grace of Christ. But then in the book of Philemon, he meets this runaway slave named Onesimus. And what does he tell Onesimus to do?

Imran: 40:06

We did a whole episode.

Ryan: 40:09

Go back to your master. So this is an example of Paul, in his leadership, disagreeing with the concept of slavery because he could have took his righteous opinion, and you know no, no, I'm against slavery. Let's start at the Underground Railroad Right. But why do we submit what? Does it go back to the main point. Submit yourselves. For what, the Lord's sake? Yeah.

Ryan: 40:34

Because this is one thing Paul knew with Onesimus If he would have not had Onesimus return and kept him or let him escape, right then other Christians could be like so we need to get the slaves freed.

Ryan: 40:49

And then what that would have done. Which slaves? And you know slaves are defined differently throughout history. Right, there's indentured servants or slaves. There's those who were forcibly, right, put into slavery. There's some who voluntarily went into it and the conditions for them, you know, were very different throughout history, also throughout different regions of areas. You know what I'm saying. You know we always think of American history and antebellum slavery, right, and not that like one's worse than the other. Right, Because it was abhorrent then. But the point being was that he did not agree with it. But slaves made up 25% of the Roman economy, Of the labor force. So if the Christian movement had, at that particular time, became known to be a movement of freeing slaves, then they would have looked at as the way right Followers of Christ, as those who are trying to crush Rome. Right, they would not have been attractive to the gospel.

Ryan: 41:54

Yeah Right, so the one thing more important than Onesimus' man, that's a word, Onesimus'. Actions, Freedom. So one thing more important than Onesimus' freedom and the righteous position of Paul. The one thing that was superior to that was the gospel. I see. Therefore, paul, onesimus, submit yourself for the sake of Christ. Does that make sense?

Imran: 42:21

Yeah, Something I was thinking about while you're mentioning that was one the writings that came out of some of the Jews that were in the internment camps during the Holocaust, and some of the strongest writings that come out of there is those that found peace and tried to do good even while in that abhorrent condition, that impossible situation to predict or even plan for, but they still were able to find a peace in it, and it was by taking care of those around them, by submitting to the authority that was there and and continuing to represent you know God in that environment.

Imran: 43:06

And then the thing that popped in my head after that was actually the books that the power of a praying wife and the power of a praying husband, books that that Selena's, selena's read through Power of a Praying Wife. I've got Power of a Praying Husband on my desk. The way it was written I didn't get as into it, but I do remember. The points that were brought up in there is that the book really talks about how, if you're trying to change your spouse, then look to, through prayer and petition, work on yourself and pray for your spouse, and it talks a lot about that submission process, that combat is not how you change your spouse.

Ryan: 43:47

That is the whole point of what Peter makes here. When we get to the wives, submit to husbands piece. So hold on to that.

Imran: 43:52

Okay.

Ryan: 43:53

Because that's his point. But we'll get there in due time, right? So? Example one, right Main point submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human authority. Right so that by doing good you should silence ignorant and talk of foolish people, right? First example he gives hey, slaves, here's an example. Submit yourself to your masters.

Ryan: 44:16

The second example he gives is the example of Christ and his own submission, in verse 21 through 25. He says he committed no sin. Most deceit was found in his mouth when they hurled their insults at him. He did not retaliate when he suffered. He made no threats. Instead he entrusted himself to him. Who judges justly? He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross so that we might die to sin and live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed, for you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the shepherd and the overseer of your souls.

Ryan: 45:04

So that's an encouraging word to a slave who is saying like go back to your harsh master, submit to your harsh master. He says remember Christ on the cross. He submitted to the cross unjustly, just like you. But what you need to work on is following his footsteps. You're going to suffer, you know. You may suffer like Christ did, but it was unjust because he did good. So go be like Christ. Do good in your situation, no matter the injustice of it. Submit to the reality that surrounds it. Right, you need to submit to the reality of your situation and do good within it. By submitting to your master, you're also submitting to that reality, right? Does that mean that we live a defeatist life? Like, well, this is just my life, like I guess I'm just going to live this, like that's not what he's saying.

Ryan: 45:52

What he is saying is that it is for Christ's sake that you submit. I keep saying that over and over because that's the main point and it leads us into our text here in a second where I think it's going to make a little more sense within marriage context. I do want to note that do you have a?

Imran: 46:07

point that it's a very real thing from like a military strategy perspective, to just you have to accept where you are in order to move forward. You know, if you're fighting the reality of the state that you're in, then you're never going to actually be solving the problem that you need to solve. So, um, I, I, I think that to to kind of clarify your, your point what is the term?

Ryan: 46:33

embrace the suck right.

Imran: 46:34

Yeah, Embrace the suck right, Like in order to just got to embrace it in order to improve your position, in order to uh make your position more tenable, more resilient, more defensible, you have to accept that your position sucks and you have to choose and have the will to like but I'm going to continue to work to improve it like a battalion defense training event. Oh love those, so go out Just sitting there all day Dig the trenches.

Ryan: 46:57

Dig the foxholes and it just starts pouring rain Right, and this is winter.

Ryan: 47:01

So like for those who aren't from around here. The desert means dry. It doesn't mean warm all the time, like it's warm in the summer, obviously it's hot, but it is freezing, cold, but it is really cold and dry in the winter, and so we're wet, we're freezing, and this was the whole training. Like we were supposed to be out there for three days just in the defense, practicing defensive operations. Like there's nobody coming to attack us, like it wasn't force on force or nothing, like we're just literally in foxholes, water up to our knees, freezing, and it's just one of those like embrace the suck. What you need to do is just accept the reality that it is raining, that it is cold, and this is where you are and there's nothing that's going to change that. Embrace it.

Ryan: 47:43

So, now go be good within that situation.

Imran: 47:47

Because if you didn't embrace or accept the reality of your situation, let's say you fought it, or you went internal, or you stopped.

Selena: 47:54

It's when you become miserable.

Imran: 48:01

It's not just when you become miserable, it's actually where you're now the most vulnerable, right like it's, let's say this was a real fight and you're in the foxhole and you're it's raining down on you, but you still have to man that gun because if you, you know, start wallowing and you're not paying attention, you're not attentive, down the the line, now you're ripe for exploit, you know. So if you're, let's look in our Christian life. If you're not willing to accept the reality of your situation and then start making intelligent decisions to improve that position based off of that reality that you're in, then you're leaving yourself open to be exploited by those around you. All right, they're going to break through those now weakened defenses because you haven't accepted, you haven't embraced the suck and started making better decisions.

Ryan: 48:41

The whole idea, though. I mean, like you were saying, somebody going internal, which you see a lot you also see it. When I was up in Bridgeport right On top of that mountain when it's freezing.

Imran: 48:52

That's where the Mountain Warfare Training Center. Where the Mountain Warfare Training Center is, we're training for.

Ryan: 48:59

Mountain Warfare for the Rain Corps. You get so bad that you see some guys start drinking JP8 fuel just so they can get off the mountain. It's a real thing. Coming forward, they actually put guards on the generators to keep people from drinking the fuel, so they go internal. But the idea of going internal is really again that that's just your inability to submit to your situation.

Imran: 49:31

Yeah, and make better decisions. Your refusal to submit leads you to inability to cope, yeah, so because, your refusal to submit your refusal to submit we do to inability to cope.

Ryan: 49:39

Yeah. And an inability to cope leads to a lot of other problems.

Imran: 49:42

Yeah, Because you start fighting the condition when the condition conditions outside of your control, and so you start doing more and more extreme things to try and fight the condition, like drinking fuel, right, you know? So what he?

Ryan: 49:53

says isn't orharm. Submit for the Lord's sake, so that you, by doing good, you can now silence ignorant talk right? Yeah. Just accept it Now.

Ryan: 50:02

go do your best in that situation right Make better decisions as a believer, as a man as a woman, you know, go forward.

Ryan: 50:13

So that was, as an example gives us Christ's submission on the cross. And then now we get to the third example, which is now wives, submit to your husbands. Okay. So, first, one through seven. I'm going to read it again Now. It says, likewise wives be subject to your own husbands. That even if some do not obey the word, they may be one without a word by the conduct of their wives. Okay. So notice what of their wives, okay? So notice what it said there.

Ryan: 50:40

Okay, wives, submit to your own husbands, so that, even if some do not obey the word, who are not believers, they may be one without a word, but by the conduct of their wife. Right? So go back up to the main point, right. Submit yourselves, for the Lord's sake, to every human authority, whether the emperor, supreme authority, to governors, for it is God's will that, by doing good, you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. So, live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil. Live as God's slaves. Your freedom as a cover-up for evil. Live as God's slaves. So, in other words, the problem he's addressing specifically with this is that there was a lot of women who were becoming saved, but their husbands weren't.

Ryan: 51:29

Now, that's a problem in every marriage where that dynamic is true, where one is a believer, one is not, I mean you don't think about how often you have to go back to common ground in a marriage and a family to build up from Raising kids. How do I discipline the kids? How do we raise you know what I'm saying, absolutely kids? How do we? You know what I'm saying Absolutely? The confusion that creates a child when, well, mom's, you know mom is telling me that Jesus is the most important thing in life and then dad doesn't give him a single thought in the day.

Imran: 52:06

He's still at home in his pajamas watching football while I'm here, he thinks the Steelers are the best.

Ryan: 52:11

Right. So how is? How? Is this the most important thing? And if it is the most important thing, then why doesn't dad care? And if this is true, then why aren't we doing more for dad and dad? Why don't you come to church? Now he gets angry because he doesn't believe in it, but now he thinks his kid hates him, or the kid goes like I'm gonna be like dad and you can't tell me otherwise, because dad does it right it creates so much problems and when you're unequally yoked in that way, right and so this is a very real thing, right?

Ryan: 52:39

Yeah, even worse within this context is that in those days, like it was accepted that your wife took on the religion of your husband in the Roman Pantheon. And let's say, you were a foreigner from Gaul or Spain or maybe Greece and you served different gods Egypt, persia, whatever. You had your own family, gods or faith you two got married. You would accept his gods. That's how it worked. That was what was expected, right? So now you find Jesus and you say, hey, I believe there's only one God. I believe Christ died for me. I don't think I need your Pantheon. Not just I don't think, I know, I don't need your Pantheon. What does Imran now do? Right? So you see how that creates this strife, right? So he's going to, and also the family's probably not going to do.

Ryan: 53:39

Well, right, and the whole point is saying so. You need to submit to your husbands when they're angry about that. Yeah Right, this is going to create issues, but you win him over not by fighting, but in your submission that you can win them over, that they may be won without a word, but by the simple conduct of yourself. Submission is supposed to be one of the primary identifiers of a believer that we submit in a way that creates peace and joy, that maintains unity that is full of grace, right and joy that maintains unity that is full of grace, right. Contentious believers is not a good look. That doesn't mean there are not times that you have to stand your ground. You plant your flag and you say, nope, I'm sorry, there's only one God Christ is the only way.

Imran: 54:30

Yeah, you have to still be clear and concise about what you believe. You don't submit away from your faith.

Ryan: 54:36

Submission is not the same thing as compromise. Yeah, exactly, you're not expected to compromise, but submission in the sense that he's not going to handle this well. But remember, submit yourselves, for what the Lord's sake? Right, so that he may be won over, right back to chapter 3, that he may be won without a word, but by the conduct of your wife or their wives. By doing that good, mm-hmm. Right, by doing good, we silence ignorant talk, even if that's your own husband. Yeah, right. Verse 2, when they see your respectful and pure conduct, do not let your adorning be excuse me, I'm sorry, there may be one without a word, but by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Verse 3. Do not let your adorning be external, the braiding of the hair and the putting on of gold jewelry or the clothing you wear. Now I just want to kind of pause there, right? Because as much as you can apply this towards marriage, right? Which is this is, I think, specifically talking about a certain kind of marriage. One of the elements that we do draw out of this is God's heart for women, right? Notice what he says.

Ryan: 56:03

Women and Selena, I'd really love your perspective on this, but I've been reading this book. It's called Captivating. I've been reading this book. It's called Captivating. It's by so, this man, john Eldridge. He wrote this book called Fathered by God and Wild at Heart, and his wife wrote a book called Captivated. And I'm reading it because I really would like to understand, as a man, how to better lead and disciple my wife and understand her, how to better raise my daughter, how to disciple the females and youth. So I'm reading this and one of the things that a lot of good things in there but one of the things that their premise is is that women, part of their creation, as they were created, was to unveil beauty, and you see this within women, this obsession almost with beauty. Right, like there's a reason that they spend hours getting ready in the morning. I mean, imran, you don't even have hair. You don't even have the pressure of hair.

Imran: 57:11

You can be up and ready in minutes. I'm not bald.

Ryan: 57:15

It was inconvenient.

Ryan: 57:18

Like I have a full head of hair. I was like man, twenty dollars a week, like that's inconvenient whoop gone.

Ryan: 57:23

Like, like, my wife, like on a sunday morning is, uh, you know, far before I am getting ready for church. I'm up, take my shower, I'm ready, ready to go out the door, and she's still like you know doing her thing. And I'm like you're not even dressed, like we got to go right, Like we're always late, you know, and she's always the reason because she's always.

Imran: 57:45

Wow, put in your boss. I love her, for everyone to know.

Ryan: 57:49

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, Because I see you. Anybody who knows the.

Ryan: 57:52

Brown family, and my wife knows this to be true. This is not a secret.

Ryan: 57:58

It's a, but you know, women have that, and there's also this, that element of women like. I know it's kind of a stereotype, but like, like women don't like if, if a man and a woman are walking down and a woman's walking, she's not looking at the man, she's looking at the woman. She's saying how beautiful is she, How's she dressed, how is she? You know what I mean. They're always like comparing themselves, because women were part of their. Their created being was to unveil beauty. Like that is a central element of who they are and the function of creation, which is true in the sense, because they were the crown of creation. I have a question, though Would, then, of creation?

Imran: 58:32

Um, I have a question, though. Would would then maybe something of the fall be the uh, their lack of faith in their own, in the beauty they've unveiled by just being? Maybe it's like why, why they feel compelled to compare themselves and all that is like.

Ryan: 58:46

Maybe that's part of I think it's me and my wife were actually talking about this was um, she picked up on the fact that she was very impulsive and that she wasn't satisfied, that women can tend to get very like I'm not satisfied with what I have, I'm impulsive of something else that I don't have, and that she went for it. I mean, there's a couple of failures there in terms of her and her purpose and identity, but also Adam. One of the supreme failures of Adam was that he was passive, like men are created to be aggressive.

Ryan: 59:20

Right, the right way, not in the toxic way. But yeah, we are to be aggressive, like if a serial killer breaks down the door. Right, like you don't want a passive man standing between you and that serial killer right or a cockroach.

Ryan: 59:44

Me as a man is like I'm not going to be passive in a situation like that. If I die, I'm not dying a weak, pathetic man. You're going to have to plug me full of about 40 holes before I go down, and by that time my family should at least have enough time to escape, right? So there's times for men to be physically aggressive, but more so aggressive towards sin, aggressive towards I'm seeing danger in my family. I'm being aggressive. I'm not going to wait for that to grow. I'm going to attack that immediately get that out of my house.

Imran: 1:00:07

Kill culture problems, Aggressive aggressive, aggressive.

Ryan: 1:00:10

The Supreme, what made Israel unfaithful from the time of Joshua, through the judges, through you know, to David, um, that entire time, like well, yeah, they were unfaithful. What were they unfaithful in? God told them, told the men you need to go fight. I told you to go fight. They were passive. Yeah.

Ryan: 1:00:30

Right. So what you see with Adam is similarly. He was passive and seeing the danger of his purpose and the danger to his wife. He was a passive man, and so you see that failure right, and you do see that with Eve too, I think.

Ryan: 1:00:44

but I guess I don't want to get too off track on that, because my thing was is that when you, when you go through like creation week, like we always talk about mankind is like when you go through creation week, we always talk about mankind, is like we're the epoch, we're the climax of creation, male and female.

Ryan: 1:01:00

Then he creates man, specifically masculine man and you can almost say that we are the capstone, we're the final piece on top. But then that's not the last thing. God doesn't stop there. He puts Adam into his purpose. So Adam has a standing relationship, he's walking with God, he's living in the purpose God gave him, in the place God gave him. There hadn't been the fall yet. They're good, right. But then God still says it's not good for you to be alone, right. So even walking with God and living in that purpose and doing that, he says it is not good for you to be here alone. So then what he does is he then takes and creates Eve out of his character as well.

Ryan: 1:01:42

Right, and he says you need the feminine part of this Right. So if men are the capstone of creation, women are the crown, and the whole idea, um, and even within Jewish thought, was that women were the crown. They were the crowns of their husband, the idea being-.

Imran: 1:01:59

You had to go out and pay a lot to earn the right-. Oh yeah, they were expensive. Yeah, the dowry To earn the right to marry. Well, they're still expensive but like-.

Ryan: 1:02:06

They're expensive because the concept is easy.

Imran: 1:02:08

The process of going out, because we had the episode on marriage and that process to go out, and you literally present an offer to her father, like to of sheep, cow land, like whatever you have to hopefully earn the opportunity to marry, right, you know? I mean, we still have that with like engagement ring no, I mean like, but I don't have to go to your family and say, well, I have all, have this home, this job, and then convince your family to give me permission. You know, I did have that conversation with her family.

Selena: 1:02:41

I was going to say kind of.

Imran: 1:02:44

But it's like, but plenty of people don't do that. They just, you know, let's get hitched. You know that culture is there.

Ryan: 1:02:50

But the idea, though within, even like Jewish, thought, right was that, sorry, I keep distracting from the question. What was the question? Men are the foundation, in a sense of like we're, we're the solid ground.

Imran: 1:03:05

Women are the crown. Their wives are what make it beautiful.

Ryan: 1:03:06

Yeah, um, without a woman, a man is just an ugly, stable rock, right, and so so kind of understanding in terms of like, how the way they always viewed that in terms of creation. But woman was the last thing, the last creative act God made. He said all has been built, but it's not good for you to be by yourself. Let me put your crown on you and he gives them his wife. So, like women were supposed to be the adorning of their husband, Do you think the garden was not beautiful without Adam?

Imran: 1:03:35

I think everything was named.

Selena: 1:03:36

I mean without Eve.

Imran: 1:03:37

Everything was named and probably very organized.

Ryan: 1:03:39

I don't think life was beautiful without Eve. I think there is a longing and a seeking that wasn't being filled within Adam at that time. That's why God says it's not good for you to be alone. I'm preaching on this actually in June, when I'm preaching on shepherding your youth, um, and we're going to talk about a little more about the Hebrew. That's behind this, but that's like a whole nother episode of this.

Imran: 1:04:04

Okay.

Ryan: 1:04:04

But what's the question? What's the question? Well, I was just going to ask you, like, in terms of the beauty, right, like, would you agree with that statement that women kind of get obsessive with it more so than men?

Selena: 1:04:15

I agree.

Ryan: 1:04:18

Do you feel like it's a longing within you that, like you always feel like you have to prove your beauty or have to unveil beauty wherever you go?

Selena: 1:04:25

Not really. I actually appreciate the simplicity. We had this conversation on Saturday with the men's breakfast. I'm like, wow, I love that the men just get together and bring food and fellowship. That's amazing and and for me I feel like women's ministry it makes it really complicated where you have to get there and make the entire decorations, the decorations, the crafts like you have to make the breakfast beautiful. This is my point, that's my point he's beautiful. This is my point, that's my point.

Ryan: 1:04:57

Yeah, that's making my point, do you agree?

Imran: 1:05:00

with the premise that women are. I see that beauty. Yeah, there's a thing that they say as a woman when you guys plan this is what I heard.

Ryan: 1:05:08

I heard it bothers you. You guys are kind of a weird couple though we are, we're opposites yeah, you are Generally speaking, though most women don't let men plan the wedding.

Selena: 1:05:17

I didn't want a wedding.

Ryan: 1:05:18

She didn't even want a wedding.

Imran: 1:05:19

I know, I know we had this, I'm saying you guys are weird, but most my wife did not let me.

Ryan: 1:05:24

She's like you can go carry the heavy things right, because women want to unveil that beauty.

Selena: 1:05:30

There's a thing about when I would plan the wrong person to ask yeah, do you remember? Like even.

Ryan: 1:05:35

Tuesday when we, uh, tuesday night Bible study, we had a, uh, we did one of those fellowship potluck nights and like there was just a few women in the church that, like Amy Biggles came up and she was, um, you know my wife. And then there was, there was just a Trissa, there was a few of them. They're like so Valentine's day we said, instead of doing the Bible study, we're just going to have like a little Valentine's potluck for everybody, because we already have child care and all that.

Ryan: 1:05:57

And they're like well, are you? You have decorations. And I was like no decorations, no. Like I was like I got a table and like there's just like this white table out, like that's where they could put their stuff and we can eat. And she's like I thought so and she came with this bag nice, she came with this bag.

Selena: 1:06:15

Nice, she came prepared, understanding.

Ryan: 1:06:17

She's like man. Step aside, let the woman unveil the beauty. Right, and she made it beautiful and it looked great right.

Imran: 1:06:24

I will say as one who sees all the pictures from the women's events and the men's events, because we do a lot of social media stuff. The women's events are beautiful. They are, they are, and a lot of it is also teaching beautiful things as well. It's like the older generation is passing on this unique skill about some aspect of making something beautiful to the next generation of women, and I think that that's awesome as well, unveiling beauty to the world and unveiling beauty Compared to the men's event, where we literally went shooting just took all our guns and went out to a random place and just shot.

Imran: 1:06:55

Compared to the men's event, where we literally went shooting Right, just took all our guns, just went shooting and went out to a random place and just shot. And then the other major event we did are the potlucks, where we just Eat food. Put tables outside Barbecue Eat food. Show up, eat the food. It was before your time.

Ryan: 1:07:05

We used to have axe throwing stations out there. Wow, it doesn't matter that got secured.

Ryan: 1:07:17

But it was a great men's event. But the point being, though, is that, generally speaking, like her, premise is that women want to unveil beauty, and I think what's interesting here watch what it says. Do not let your adorning so you women as the crowns right. Do not let your adorning your crowns be external the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry or the clothes you wear right. Don't make this materialistic. Don't make it about your fashion. Don't make it about that's not what the real crown in your value and worth is. What does he say? But let your adorning your crown be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit which is, in God's sight, very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord, and you are her children, and if you do good and do not fear anything, that is frightening. In other words, you have to understand.

Ryan: 1:08:25

For Sarah to call Abraham Lord, right, everyone's like oh, so I have to call my husband Lord, like. That's not what he is saying. What he is saying is that Abraham was given a promise by God, and she said I'm too old, so you better just go take my servant, go sleep with her, go fulfill God's promise to you through this young servant of mine, cause, god, I have no place in God's promise. And Abraham, like an idiot, instead of reaffirming his wife in the same promise as him, says okay and goes and does it, yeah, right, um, then of course that's Ishmael, and then of course she freaks out. We've talked about this before. Right, sends the boy and Hagar away and you have the first single mother in the Bible, first single mother in the Bible.

Ryan: 1:09:08

And you keep so understanding like Abraham was called righteous cause he walked by faith, but he was also an idiot, and Sarah called him Lord. She knew he was an idiot, right, even when it takes him up to sacrifice him on a mountain, she's like that's my Lord, that donkey up there. You know what I mean, the idea being is that what made her beautiful? Because Sarah had a lot of failures in that too? Is that what made her beautiful? Because Sarah had a lot of failures in that too? But for her, is that she, by calling Abraham Lord, was the idea that she submitted to him and things because she disagreed with him.

Ryan: 1:09:45

You see what I'm saying Like we missed the point. We missed the point. So if you do good and do not fear anything, though that is frightening. But then it says this likewise, husbands, we always have to stop at verse six Husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. So again, this is one of those right Like our target text here, even when it seems to go to the men, it seems to be very, almost derogatory towards women. You know like you need to be considerate of those weaker vessels, right? That is not it. And this is one of, I think, the things that is very heartbreaking about this verse, because that verse is also supposed to be very uplifting of women and it's been changed. People get offended by it, people don't like talking about it, they don't want to even study it because I think they're afraid of what it means. This is meant to be very uplifting of women. So let me break it down Husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to her. So you are to live as if, try to understand her to the best of your ability Be considerate, showing her honor, you are to honor her. It is not very honoring to your wife if, particularly in public, you just the way you treat her is dismissive.

Ryan: 1:11:14

Woman, stand behind me. Hey, stop speaking. Stop speaking. Right Men are talking. Oh there's the cars. Oh, randy, right, like that is honor your wife. Yeah, ele. Oh there's cigars. Oh, randy right.

Ryan: 1:11:24

Like honor your wife.

Imran: 1:11:25

Yeah, elevate her Honor Christ.

Ryan: 1:11:27

How do we honor Christ? How do we honor what does honor mean? Exactly what you said Elevate Right. Look, boys, if you don't like my wife speaking at this dinner table, we're both out. Yeah Right, we're done. Support empower. You know what I'm right, we're done, support, empower. You know I'm saying like that. You honor her among everybody else, honor her with your friends within, at work, um, and whatever you're doing, you honor your wife.

Imran: 1:11:51

Yeah um, one of the things that really for the how right it really you have to know, right. So you need to know your wife in order to be able to effectively honor her. If you don't know what her dreams, her aspirations, her goals, her desires are, how are you going to be able to elevate her in those things you know, how are you going to be able to support her in those things? So, uh, like, first off, if you're, if, if you're, if you think your dreams and your wife's dreams are the same dreams, then you haven't communicated effectively, you know, with your wife. So first you need to listen and ask those questions so that you can actually do these things of elevating her and honoring her, you know.

Ryan: 1:12:33

So I, yeah, and but, but this is the piece that gets people right, so we were to honor her. She'll honor to the woman as the weaker vessel. Okay, weaker vessel, um, let's just kind of break that down, okay, um, first, weaker. When we think of weak, we always, you know, weak like um. What do we mean by weak? The adjective there for weaker is more, in the sense, delicate right, oh interesting.

Ryan: 1:13:07

As the more delicate vessel. Now, you could then say well, delicate is weak. That's your cultural appropriation on something right. Why is delicate weak right? Men and women, again, were both created in God's image. Men and women again, were both created in God's image. Women who could be more delicate, whether that's emotionally, whether that is in terms of sensitivity, whatever that may be.

Ryan: 1:13:32

Physically, we're not just talking about muscles. Right, Women, they have smaller muscles. That's not what he's saying. Delicacy means the fact that they're sensitive, the fact that they want to unveil beauty to the world, the fact that they want to be romanced. That delicacy tells us something about the heart of God.

Imran: 1:13:52

You want to know something God has that delicacy, hold on.

Ryan: 1:13:57

Yeah.

Imran: 1:13:57

God is such a great woman.

Ryan: 1:13:57

If women want to be romanced and that's at the core of every one of them as a supreme desire of women they want to be romanced. They want to be pursued. Right, that means God wants to be romanced. He wants to be pursued. He doesn't want to. He's going to pursue you with all his heart, but he wants you to pursue him. He's romantic, right, he is somebody when we sing worship songs is sentimental to him. Right, it's romantic to him. He wants you to pursue him. He wants you to be romantic to him. When you see, well, she's just being overly dramatic, overly emotional. No, maybe what that's telling you about the character of God is that he's emotional. That may be because you don't think it's a big deal. You're not as angry, you're not as upset, you're not as sensitive. That shows that God is sensitive to it.

Ryan: 1:14:42

You're not sensitive to it because you took the masculine form of him. She is teaching you the feminine image of God, that God is sensitive to things like that, and I just have to finish this because I've noticed this so much.

Imran: 1:14:56

How emotional is God to send his son to die for us, like? How much emotion is required to even do something like that? That's not a logical response, that's an emotional charged response, you know.

Ryan: 1:15:09

But to continue with your example, Right, because he's also very sensitive to sin. You see this in the inverse in certain regards. Right, like, okay, so you commit adultery. What did the law say? Because the law is the heart of God, stone him, kill him, yeah, well, that seems like the heart of God, then why? He's just being overly emotional, isn't he? He's taking the woman's side there, right? Yeah, or that's what he's telling you, is he's showing you the sensitivity and how serious he takes sin. Right? This is how I treat. I'm this sensitive to sin. You think adultery is bad, but you don't think it's worth stoning someone over. I'm telling you, this is how serious and sensitive I am to sin.

Ryan: 1:15:49

It's worse than you think it is, and that's often what I learned from my wife. Sorry, I'm from the wrong camera. What I learned from my wife in our marriage is that there's a lot of situations that are bigger deals than I see them as. Like I don't see why is that a big deal, like they shouldn't be upset by that, and she's like no, it's a big deal. And she'll expose. She has that discernment, she has that element that benefits our marriage, that benefits our ministry, that I lack God's emotional sensitivity, so she's more delicate and aware of certain things that I'm not. That's not a weakness, that is strength, yeah Right. That reinforces my mission as a man, right, it is very beneficial for me to have my wife with me and all that, yeah Right. So we're talking delicacy. I want to hit a quick point. All that, yeah Right, um, so we're talking delicacy.

Imran: 1:16:45

I want to hit a quick point.

Imran: 1:16:46

So we uh I'm not going to say their names, but we have this uh youth couple in the church, um, that's.

Imran: 1:16:51

That's fascinating to me, because the man in this relationship, um, has a history of just such anger, um and bouts of just kind of fits of rage that he's been working through over the over, like probably his entire life. But the girl that he's with now is, um, very strong-willed but also very delicate and very girly um and how she, how she carries herself. And so I kind of saw a culmination of uh their relationship on Sunday because she had made him this um hat that was like a little, had little bear ears on it. It was super cute. And so I walk up onto the uh you know the into the sound booth and I see him sitting there. He's got kind of this this uh almost like a mean mugging face on, as he's wearing this hat and she's playing with the ears on his head. And I saw that and I looked at him and I was like this is why men need women, because this is going to make you a better man, and it's also why men need daughters.

Ryan: 1:18:01

I've never felt more like a man than letting my daughter paint my toenails and put makeup. She still does it. She's like can I do your hair and do your makeup? Sure.

Imran: 1:18:13

Yeah, right, I remember you saw the one pink nail.

Ryan: 1:18:17

I don't hate it because I actually adore it. What I hate is makeup Like I don't know how you women do it, but you just feel it. You feel the weight on your face. You try to get it off, it doesn't come off and then it's like you start breaking out because it's your clog. Your pores are all clogged, like I'm like, why do they do this? This is awful, besides the point Um, but yeah, that's. That's why we need we need women, right?

Imran: 1:18:37

When I said that to him, though, he kind of broken this like half grin and I I don't know if he got it, but it looked like he kind of something clicked in his head. It's like this is. This is why you need her. So the other piece she's making you better.

Ryan: 1:18:50

Weaker means delicate. Right, it's a delicate, but that doesn't mean worse. That's what men need, right? And women don't need another delicate person. They need what a man brings which is more of the stronger foundation, who is so oblivious to some of that reality that she's like, hey, knucklehead, come here, let me explain to you what's going on. Right, you need each other, right? So he's saying as the delicate vessel.

Ryan: 1:19:19

But notice, it says vessel, your said partner, and this is what you got to be careful with Bible translations, because it is not partner. It's nowhere close to partner is that word. The word in Greek is vessel. But it's not just vessel, it's not just like a container, right, what it actually annotates? Think about like a, think about an irreable, like family heirloom. Think about like great grandma's China. It's delicate and it's one of a kind, it's valuable and it's irreplaceable. Okay, that's the vessel he's talking about. He's saying she is delicate. He's essentially saying, men, for the purpose to which you serve, you better be very considerate and understanding of your wife's perspective, because she is like that irreplaceable, invaluable, delicate family heirloom, that china that if you are not careful and you break that, you can't replace, that, you can never put it back together.

Ryan: 1:20:24

You can never put it back together. You can't replace it. There's there's nothing there. Um, there's no replacement for that. Everybody just thinks like, oh okay, well, this wife's not working, let me just go put another one there. That's not how that works, right. Everybody uniquely provides their own value. Your wife brings uniquely immense value to you. Um I that you need to be very careful and appreciative of how she handles and is able to support you in your mission. If you truly care about doing God's will in your life and being submissive to what he is telling you to do, then you should very much care about your wife's perspective. If you don't care about that, then now all the delicacy and all the you know, emotion and drama and all that intuition that women bring, that annoy men because we don't understand it, because it's not us.

Ryan: 1:21:16

But it's completely necessary, but it's completely within the image of God right that we need to do what we need to do to be in God's will. But if I don't care about God's will, then that stuff that is valuable to me just now just becomes annoying, right. And you start seeing that like, okay, you're just, you're just being dramatic. Why do you have to be dramatic about everything? It's like, well, maybe if she's being dramatic about everything, you're not listening.

Imran: 1:21:38

Yeah, You're missing.

Ryan: 1:21:39

You're not paying attention and you're not operating within God's will because you're only doing this half-heartedly right now. There's this whole other element that you need to fully dive into doing what you need to do. So I'm sorry, women, I can't relieve you of the expectation that you have to submit to your husbands. However here Peter is talking you need to be very considerate of them and the immeasurable value they bring. You would not take your great-grandma's china and then use those cups to let the toddlers drink out of.

Imran: 1:22:21

Yeah, let the dog drink out of you know what I'm saying.

Ryan: 1:22:24

You don't do that. You treat that with high value, you protect it, you keep it safe, you treasure it, right yeah?

Imran: 1:22:30

That's how you're supposed to approach your wife. You also don't hide it away in a box, because you're ruining the value of it as well.

Ryan: 1:22:39

No, it's an adorning. Yeah, most people have a china cabinet. If they have that kind of china, it is there for right. It's the adorning of her husband. Right, she is to bring that beauty there it's a crown.

Ryan: 1:22:52

So there's, but then I want to kind of touch this though. Okay, so now I get to get a little. This gets a little. See the unpopular part out loud, controversial. No, well, I've made it this far Before I hit that women have to submit to their husbands, husbands have to submit to their wives. So we always go to Ephesians 5, right, men, love your wives as Christ loved the church. Wives submit to your husband the way he submitted himself. So we always set this kind of expectation Men are there to love their wives, wives are there to submit to their husbands. Right, that that's Ephesians what? 521. Back up one verse. Okay, back up one verse. You guys going to it now. I actually didn't have it written down.

Imran: 1:23:49

Ephesians what?

Ryan: 1:23:50

Chapter five.

Imran: 1:23:51

Yep Ephesians, I'm on two, three, four, five what 21.

Ryan: 1:23:55

What does Ephesians 21 say?

Imran: 1:23:59

Well, I'll read 22. Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. Verse 21, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Boom, okay. And then for 23 as well. No, no, no, you don't have to worry about that, because you've already made my point.

Ryan: 1:24:15

Yeah, wives, submit to your husband, right, we take that back up one verse. What is the actual expectation?

Imran: 1:24:21

to one another.

Ryan: 1:24:31

Husbands are equally to submit to their wives, as wives are expected to submit to their husbands. And, um, so let me say the unpopular part. Okay, why then, over and over, do we keep seeing wives being called to submit to their husbands in scripture, if the expectations that we submit to each other Okay, so so let's just start there. Okay, if Emran is expected to submit to you as much as you are to expect it to submit to him, right, then why is it constantly coming and saying Selena, you need to submit to Emran, selena, you need to submit to Emran. You see what I'm saying?

Imran: 1:25:04

It's probably because you're not you see what I'm saying. I think it's probably because that's what you're going to struggle with. There you go, and this is the unpopular part.

Ryan: 1:25:13

I've said this before about men, so let me start there, just so I can keep this fair. Okay, I think that if God didn't tell men to be the spiritual leaders of their home, they wouldn't be, because I think women make them more natural spiritual leaders. Yeah, men are uh, women are far more relational than men. That's part of that, that, that that delicacy that they, they possess within that, that piece. I see this all the time in church. You see, it doesn't even matter. Like young women, right? Like 20 years old, 21 years old. They're like dragging their boyfriends to church by the ear. Absolutely, absolutely. Families nope, get in the car. We're going to church as a family. You see women as the natural leaders.

Imran: 1:25:50

I feel like Natural spiritual leaders, natural spiritual leaders in the home. Yeah, so if God didn't tell men, and men want to lead in, everything else Right, except?

Ryan: 1:25:57

spiritually. If God did not tell men to lead your home spiritually, they would not. It would be women. So he says you need to step up. You need to do this right. It's actually adding your weakness that I'm giving you that charge. So likewise.

Ryan: 1:26:11

So if that's true, then I think the reason why you see, often the command for wives to submit to their husbands is because I think women struggle with submission more than men do, and I think you see that a lot with women's interactions to each other do, and I think you see that a lot with women's interactions to each other, um, I think and of course this is not true of everyone I think everybody has to grow into learning submission. Um, I don't think women also realize how much men actually submit to women. Um, and this is what I mean, like, submission comes in the little things right. Like all men, even if your marriage is, you feel like falling apart. If I were to go ask that man, would you take a bullet for your wife, every one of them? Yes, absolutely, I would die for my wife, even with our marriage falling apart. I would be faithful in that regard. I would, um, I would absolutely do that Submit to that fate for my wife. And the big things Submission comes in the little things, right.

Ryan: 1:27:15

Um, the game's on. You've had a long day at work, you're tired, you just want to relax, and then, hey, can you come take the trash out? And then, when you're done with that. Can you go do this honey-do list? Okay, will do, and you see, that's the mission. Yeah, do you think men just love doing your honey-to-do list? You guys know what I'm saying Honey-do list.

Imran: 1:27:35

I don't know what that is A honey-do list. Honey can you do, and they like.

Ryan: 1:27:40

You know they'll make a list of things I need you to do. It's unfathomable to me to ever make a list of chores to give to my wife. You know what I mean. How that? Would go. I'm just saying like. I know it's not. I'm just being honest. I'm trying to be honest and maybe I'm wrong, but it's very clear that husbands are to submit to their wives, wives are to submit to their husbands. Why are?

Ryan: 1:28:11

wives being called out for not submitting to their husbands, probably because they struggle with it more. Likewise, men get called out more for not loving their wives properly their way. You see what I'm saying. So you see this. Where so our wives not expected to love their husbands? Of course they are. Wives don't have a hard time loving their loving their husbands their husband's way. Men have a hard time loving their wives their wife's way, right? Similarly, men probably do a little bit better with submission to their wives, and wives do in submitting to their husbands, so it's called out more right Like submission to their wives. And wives do in submitting to their husbands, so it's called out more right Like um, that's a pretty simple explanation, because the most of the Bible is written that way.

Imran: 1:28:50

Um, like Paul wouldn't call out um the Galatians for their um, their issues with submissions, with the uh, with all the sexual debauchery that was going on. Um, he wouldn't call them out the way that he did if it wasn't an issue.

Ryan: 1:29:06

Like he just was talking about something else. Ephesians in particular. Specific context of Ephesians and the Ephesus church is that they had the temple of Artemis there. I mean, it was one of the seventh wonders of the world.

Imran: 1:29:17

Oh, I might be thinking of Ephesians and not.

Ryan: 1:29:19

Ephesus yeah, yeah, so from there, like that was a very sexually free society. If you grew up in that culture and you weren't a believer, you were sleeping with prostitutes, probably since you were old enough.

Imran: 1:29:31

To sleep with prostitutes Right.

Ryan: 1:29:33

And it wasn't frowned upon, it was celebrated, it was encouraged being able to go choose any one of you know a, a gorgeous prostitute of of of art and one of Artemis's priestesses, to go sleep with Right, and even if it's like, well, I belong to Christ. I don't really believe in Artemis, but I still have this free act. You know what I'm saying. Yeah.

Ryan: 1:29:57

So husbands, go, love your wife the way Christ loved us. Stop that nonsense. Because of that, also with that culture, there was almost this hyper-feminism in Ephesus because seventh wonder of the world, goddess, artemis, priestesses, the religious authority, were women, right? So there was almost just like we are in charge here, right? He's like no, start submitting to your husbands. So the point being is that for both the expectations you both submit, and the expectation for both is that you're supposed to make it easy for your spouse to submit to you. Yeah.

Ryan: 1:30:31

It becomes much harder to submit to your spouse when certain behavior right is there, and maybe the reason wives have a harder time submitting to their husbands is because husbands don't make it as easy to submit to as wives make it for us to submit to them. You see what I'm saying. So even just because it may be calling that out specifically doesn't mean that there's not an underlying cause of that either. You know what I'm saying? Both are expected to submit to one another.

Imran: 1:31:00

Yeah, because your wife's not going to submit to your debauchery. Your wife's not going to submit to your sin. Your wife's not going to submit to your sin. Your wife's not going to submit to your chaos. So it's like if you're leading poorly, then don't expect willful submission. She may, in her maturity, submit to create peace and to hopefully change you over time and do all the things that we talked about in Peter, but at the same time, of course, she'll be combative if you're leading in an un-Christlike way. It's like God doesn't say lead your household however you want, you're supposed to lead it in God's way, and you both mean within submission of Christ right.

Imran: 1:31:39

Yeah.

Ryan: 1:31:40

So kind of wrap this up then. So one to the point. Right, this isn't your proof text of model of marriage in the sense that, like Peter's point was to the larger main point, which was what.

Imran: 1:31:56

Submit to the emperor.

Ryan: 1:31:58

Well, we'll submit to all human authority for the Lord's sake, right? So the first thing, why should we submit? It's all for the Lord's sake and for our witness to the world. Right Submission is for Jesus. So let's say you're like, hey, well, you talked about it. My husband, my wife is not easy to submit to Right, so they're one of those that make it very difficult to. So you know, god understands that, he sees that he, he's fair, right. What is this actual point? Say Submit to all human authority, for the Lord's sake.

Ryan: 1:32:37

You're not submitting to your spouse just for your spouse's sake, you're submitting to your spouse for Jesus's sake. So in other words, in submitting to your spouse, you're submitting to Christ To rebel against that and not submit to your spouse. You are then rebelling and not submitting to Christ. Does that make sense? A slave is not really submitting to their master. A slave is submitting to Jesus right To go. Submit to their master, harsh or not, they're not submitting to their master, they're submitting to Christ For a free. People are not submitting to an emperor, they are submitting to Christ. Wives are not submitting to their husbands, they're submitting to Christ. Husbands are not submitting to their wives, they are submitting to Christ and I think that kind of central piece right All the things that scripture tells Christians to be submissive to government.

Ryan: 1:33:31

Right, paul and Romans be submissive to government, be submissive in your marriage, be submissive to your boss and those authorities. Right Like over and over and over. This is a concept. In other words, if you could say it this way show me I can show you your submission to Christ based off who I see you submit to Right. Show me your submission to other people. I can show you how submitted over you are to Christ, because that's what he's told you to do.

Selena: 1:33:59

It's out of obedience.

Ryan: 1:34:01

And ultimate submission to him. Yeah Right, obedience and ultimate submission to him. Right, like I have a few. If you love me, what does he say? Then go love each other, right? If you love me, go feed my sheep.

Ryan: 1:34:14

If you submit to me, then you need to submit to each other and all the other worldly authorities. If you belong to me, then go be holy, for I am holy. In other words, on things we do on behalf of Christ as believers. We do on behalf of Christ when somebody in church offends you and hurts you to where you want to leave the church. He calls you to serve. And how does it?

Ryan: 1:34:40

Love the people of God, because I have loved you, submit to that when people hurt you. I didn't call you to to to serve the church for this church's sake or to serve a pastor. You're serving the church because you're serving me. I told you to go serve the church. So when somebody hurts you, you have no excuse to disconnect fellowship with them. Let me just be very clear. I don't mean there's obviously some things that you're like I need to disconnect fellowship from you. Know what I'm saying? What I'm saying is that just because somebody has hurt or offended you and you don't want to resolve it with them. It's just easier for you to leave and go to the church down the street. He says that's not honoring. Go, handle this the way I told you to handle it, right, go, go. Or maybe it's a dispute with the pastor? Go, submit to your pastor um on this Right Um cause. In doing so, you're submitting to me by serving them you're serving me.

Ryan: 1:35:37

Um, so first we submit for the sake of Christ and our witness Right. Um, For the sake of Christ and our witness right, we do not submit to our government on things we disagree with because we agree with them. We're submitting because we love Jesus. And if a believer, if we, how am I? How are I to say this? If we are, if we lack submission in our walk, we are not attractive to people. It is our faith and our walk that is supposed to draw people to Christ. Yeah.

Ryan: 1:36:15

We just become annoying, so you could prove yourself right, right.

Imran: 1:36:17

People love to do that. Right, that's the easy thing and get the world to hate you.

Ryan: 1:36:21

Yeah, or you could be submissive, where everybody else would say something just out of ego to prove themselves. Right, you submit to draw people in for the sake of Christ.

Imran: 1:36:33

Yeah, but it's not to dismiss your point you still bring up. This is right, this is true and this is accurate. This is what I believe. But I'm submitting because that submission is all. You are in a position of authority and so I'm submitting because this is also what I'm called to do.

Ryan: 1:36:52

Because if you don't submit, the world doesn't see light. They see a problem. Yeah. You know what I mean and you don't want people looking at Christ as a problem.

Ryan: 1:36:59

You want them looking at him as the answer and, um, remember, it's not just for the Lord's sake but by doing good that we can silence the talk of ignorant and foolish people so people could come at you all day. They're going to still mock you. They're going to yeah, they're going to do that, but you continue doing good the way you should, and you continue to submit right, not being that problem, right Just to be the problem, but instead being submissive in that you're going to silence their foolish talk because other people are going to look at that and be like dude, that that dude's an idiot Like you see the way that he was making fun of the like. These people are amazing and they may even be somebody that are like I don't really I'm not sure I believe in in in in Christianity and but I do know that those are good people and they did not deserve that.

Ryan: 1:37:42

And and you know what I'm saying your actions will silence foolish talk, your words and your, your tweets and your Facebook posts and all of that doesn't draw them to you, right?

Ryan: 1:37:55

Um, so first is, for the Lord's sake and witness. Second, um, and we already kind of hit it, but submission applies to all believers, regardless of gender, regardless of your race, economic or social status in marriage, whether you're husband, wife. This is an expectation to everybody. And then the last thing I would well really just the last two things. Submission to the character of your spouse. Um, when, when it says, men, you are to be considerate of the delicacy and the value that your wife brings in a marriage. If she feels like you're not being considerate and you feel like you are right, like no, what do you mean? I'm not being in my best way, I've been considerate to you and she's like I don't think you have been Right, it doesn't matter what you think. Submission to that is then saying I submit to what your view of that is. You're saying I'm not being considerate enough. How am I not being considerate enough? I will submit to that. Yeah, help me become more considerate.

Imran: 1:39:01

There's a line from the video game God of War, where the main character tells his son don't be sorry, be better.

Selena: 1:39:12

That's where you get that from, and it's like it's kind of interesting there, because that's what your point remind me of.

Imran: 1:39:21

It's like don't don't just. It's like, even if you admit that you're, you're sorry, like don't just say you're sorry and do the same thing over and over again. You know be better.

Ryan: 1:39:29

Right and and if we've talked about this before with you, know cheating right, like Selena may have a completely different view of what cheating means compared to you. You know what I mean. You see this a lot with porn. You see this with couples where she's devastated, as if he cheated. He's like look like I don't think it's okay, like they feel very embarrassed and ashamed, but they're like but I don't think I cheated, I don't think I broke a covenant with her. I'm not saying it's right, I just don't think it's cheating. And she's just in tears, broken. No, I think that's cheating.

Ryan: 1:40:04

They never had that conversation, right? Like a very healthy conversation for particularly newlyweds who are about to get married. If you're engaged, what does the other consider cheating? It doesn't matter what you think cheating is. What only really matters is what she thinks cheating is yeah, and vice versa, and vice versa right, like that's all that matters. You need to submit to those things, submit to that character, I would say in terms of the character of the differences between men and women. Right, like for men, if God values the imperishable inner quality of a woman and says that's her adorning, that's her crown, if that's what God values.

Ryan: 1:40:45

That's what we should value, more so than anything Right, and we should affirm our wives in the fact that, yes, you're very, very pretty, but it's just a reality. Okay, like men, and women just have to accept this, no matter how good looking you were when you were younger, in your youth at some point you're going to be 85 years old, raggly, saggy, not moving around. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Imran: 1:41:08

It's like well, how do people stay together for 56 years? It's not because of outer beauty.

Ryan: 1:41:12

You better start looking and appreciating your wife for that inner value that she has. Yeah, and you know, certainly women, you know, pursue your internal value in Christ more than the external right and you even see this Pursue the inner beauty instead of the plastic surgery. Right, but you see it in church, right. Like you see some people gravitate to their church cliques based off their fashion, like, oh, she dresses like me. I've never seen that consciously.

Ryan: 1:41:36

I've never consciously noticed that You'll notice it, You'll notice, people will naturally gravitate Like I can, like it's.

Ryan: 1:41:43

It's to the point where I'm able to see new people coming in and I'm able to look at the couple, like I know exactly who they're going to fit in with and I'm I have yet to be proven wrong Um, some of it. That's just naturally of like where people are in life. So it's not like it's all wrong. Right, I'm not saying that, but there have been times where I've seen certain women gravitate towards each other just because they could tell that they like shopping at the same stores as them and they don't consider other people, maybe because of that element. I'm not saying that's everybody, I'm just saying, as an example, like women should stop valuing the external so much, start valuing the internal and start emphasizing, looking for within self and others, the internal value of women and appreciating them for that as well. Right, Um? So I had a few other points here, but it's we'll, we'll move on, Cause I know it's it's um how did you teach this all in 45 minutes?

Ryan: 1:42:38

I didn't have you interrupting me, that's true.

Ryan: 1:42:44

That's fair, it does add a lot. I mean, it really does. This is probably an hour when I first taught it. But the last thing is submission is relative to the human authority. Right, like what submission looked like to government, what submission looks like to husband, wife, what that looks like to a boss that changes over time, cross cultures right, submission is very, also very relative. Um, you know in the fifties what a a wife submitting to a husband or a husband submitting to a wife looked like looks much different then than it probably does now. Yeah.

Ryan: 1:43:22

Right. The same thing goes in terms of your interactions with your boss Right, there are certain things that are acceptable now with your boss. That if you would have done that, you know, back in the 1920s that would have been considered like disrespectful. Like if you were to say, invite your boss over for a barbecue on a Saturday, you would have never done that, like prior, probably to like 19, you know 60, right, like um, there's just, things change, right. So you have to also look at things within its context, its culture as it is now to understand that balance of what a submission in this situation look like.

Ryan: 1:43:57

Um and again doesn't mean compromising, but but submission. What does that submission look like?

Imran: 1:44:03

Like it's like we don't have the Roman, uh, capital, uh, not Roman, sorry, the um, the uh, what was it called? The tower where they had all the priestesses and all that in there? Um, and we don't have that where they go and they just have sex with all the priestesses. But we have, you know, all these websites, right, you know that technology we don't have. We don't have this temple that we go to to fornicate with random people, but we have this computer, this computer that can bring you to 80,000 different temples. Exactly Right.

Ryan: 1:44:36

And so yeah, um, we are to compel people in faith, based off of our good action. We're, we're to where, I'm sorry, we're not to compel them, we are to draw them, or what should be compelling about us, is our conduct that draws them in Right.

Ryan: 1:44:57

Um submission does that because we're ultimately not really submitting to them. We're submitting to Christ in our witness right. That's going to be very hard to do if that's not the most central piece of your life. If Christ is not the center, glorifying him is not the center. Being the best witness and disciple you can be of Christ is not your center. Submission is going to be very, very hard for you.

Selena: 1:45:20

It's very true.

Ryan: 1:45:21

Right, and what you also find, why a lot of people have a hard time submitting to other people. It's just an higher elevation of self in that situation, right, like yeah, I value you, I just value myself far more.

Imran: 1:45:35

Gotcha.

Ryan: 1:45:36

You know what I mean. So that's why that humility needs to be there, and then that's why men understand the value of your wife, you can submit, if you really truly understood her value, what she brings to you, you'd have no problem submitting to her Right Because it's worth it. And if women looked at their husbands, began to trust them and understand and again making it easy to submit, but understanding the value that their husbands provide them, it's easier to submit to Right All the same Right. It's easier to submit to right All the same right. Like so, submission must be pure to lead to pure faith. But ultimately, though, submission in itself very Christian concept that we don't talk about enough, in my opinion, and it touches every relationship we have not just from this way, with Christ, but with each other.

Ryan: 1:46:31

It's kind of like one of those lost arts. But I have plenty of examples here, but I know we're already much out of time. Hey, it was our last episode for a couple months or whenever we come back, so I guess I'll open it up for you guys. Did you have any lasting thoughts?

Selena: 1:46:48

I think it's really important to know this to have a healthy church, Because if you don't, that's when you have separation in the church and just a lot of disagreements. Same with marriage, yeah Right a lot of disagreements Same with marriage, yeah.

Ryan: 1:47:07

Right, Right. This is with anything any relationship you could make that statement of, and it requires a lot of denying oneself Absolutely. You know, as you said earlier, deny thyself and pick up your cross and follow him. Yeah, absolutely he submitted to us before he asked us to submit to him. You know what I mean. And he submitted himself to the government authority. He submitted himself to the religious authority. He submitted he was washing feet the night before he was arrested. Follow the example of your rabbi.

Imran: 1:47:43

Yeah, it's like the son of man rabbi.

Imran: 1:47:44

Yeah, it's like the son of man didn't come to be served, but to serve, you know, the? The final point I was thinking of, too, was we didn't talk much about just the like, the relationship between like kind of the father and the son and the father and the daughter, mother and mother and their sons and daughters as well, because that submission and that love has to be present there as well too, and it's its own unique dynamic that we have to work through. So, but overall, right. So one of the very first topics that we ever heard you talk about, and as we came to the church, this is what your kind of like main topic that other people told us like oh, man brian should tell you about his submission, uh, a series that he did, or his submission full circle right.

Imran: 1:48:32

And so now, after you know, three years of being here, it was probably better than because it was uh.

Ryan: 1:48:38

You know, it was all new and fresh to me too, and I was all fired up.

Imran: 1:48:40

I don't know yeah I think if we had done that, then, though, I think we would have both just been, you know, crying or I don't know. I don't know if we were ready to hear it then.

Selena: 1:48:50

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. It's like hmm, but thanks for bearing with us too. I know we talked about like starting off in the closet downstairs, and then we took the podcast to our living room and then the small office and then we're like we need a bigger office.

Imran: 1:49:06

We actually converted our master bedroom. Yeah, selena moved the entire master bedroom into one of the smaller rooms and then we turned the master bedroom into a studio slash office space, and that's where we were for the past about a year.

Selena: 1:49:19

So every time Ryan showed up I was like this is different, I don't like it and now we actually have this spot here at the church to record.

Imran: 1:49:26

Just in time for us to leave, I know, but now it's just in time for you to be able to continue it here, whether with us or with another group, it's something that we can do.

Ryan: 1:49:37

I should get like a pull down. I was thinking the Palm Church and Real Bible Stories banner. No, because then you're going to interrupt the the treatment. I know well, I'll do it when you leave, when you can't see it, I'll hear it. I'll hear it.

Imran: 1:49:53

I hear paper rustling in the background. What's going on? How's that?

Imran: 1:49:56

yeah, but anyways, thank you so much, ryan, for everything, and whether we continue doing this in a few months or this ends up being the final episode, I feel at peace. You know this has been an absolute journey and it's been an amazing opportunity.

Ryan: 1:50:10

I hope we can keep it going because it's been a blessing to me too.

Ryan: 1:50:17

But everything has a season. Everything has an ecclesiastes right as an Ecclesiastes right, like there's a season for everything and season for healing, season for fighting, season for crying right. There's a season for podcasts and sometimes there's a season not for podcasts. So we're always going into a season of no podcast for a little bit. We'll be in diligent prayer until then and I think God will make it very clear and very obvious on our hearts once we get, once you guys transition, hopefully safely and without any problems, and you guys get your house that you're trying to get, and as you guys do that whole transition and start a new journey there, that it becomes obvious and you know, because you're also going to find another church family out there that you're going to hopefully fall in love with and serve the way you've loved and served us here. And you know this may be something that we have to let go at that time and maybe not. Maybe you hate it there and you're like how out of our day is just doing the podcast right now.

Ryan: 1:51:22

This has been my favorite thing coming out. Our day is just doing the podcast, right.

Selena: 1:51:24

Yeah. No but this has been my favorite thing coming out of 29 palms. It's a podcast for sure.

Ryan: 1:51:30

Yeah, I think it's something you are certainly really needed spiritually, certainly one of my favorite people that that we've had. So, um, we're going to miss you, part of me. We should just keep the podcast, just so I can talk to you guys still.

Imran: 1:51:44

That's one of the main reasons why I want Selfishly just to

Ryan: 1:51:47

stay connected to home, that's if you don't happen to get a bunch of flat tires on the day you're supposed to leave. I don't know how that would happen.

Imran: 1:51:55

That's crazy. I don't know. You're not the first person to threaten to cause harm.

Ryan: 1:52:00

That's good. Good to know, because that means you can't ever say Ryan said he would do it. There's at least three different families that have threatened us to stay. Each one of us will just take our own tire.

Imran: 1:52:10

And together we.

Ryan: 1:52:13

But we love you guys and to those who are listening and who have been listening, we do feel encouraged by a lot of the things that you guys write and when you guys talk to us, particularly those in the church, um, and the encouragement because, as you can kind of see, we just talk to each other in these walls and um, but but your guys's interactions have have blessed us. I've grown in this Um, this format is not what I'm used to, it's not what um used to, it's not what um I am typically ever like preferable of right, like um, but I've been able to grow a lot in this as well. So, um, for this season, um, you know, as we go into this break, you know whatever God has for on the other end of this um, just know that we appreciate you all and um, yeah, I've been a blessing with you guys here, because, no matter after what happens after this, we're not going to be in the same room doing it.

Ryan: 1:53:09

So this is really this is the closing of a chapter for us that that we're not gonna be able to meet and talk for hour and a half before drinking coffee and, um, eating your your amazing street corn dip. That I tried. You gave me the recipe and I completely botched it. Um, but you know it's, it's. This is an end for us, so, um, but, but I love you guys.

Imran: 1:53:33

We love you too. So, yeah, amen to that. So, um with that. Hopefully, god willing, we will see you on the next episode of Real Bible Stories.

Imran: 1:53:45

Goodbye loves me, so I know that he won't let go. Only a few things I know. I know that he loves me, so know that he won't let go. Yes, j Jesus loves me. This I know.