274. Keeping Up the Pace with Ryan Steck

Author and Book Spy Ryan Steck discusses pacing, how it has evolved, and gives tips on how to set the best pace for your book.

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Check out Ryan on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B09KQHNGHH

Visit Ryan's websites:
https://ryansteck.com/
https://therealbookspy.com/ryan-steck-the-author/

Find Ryan on socials:
https://www.instagram.com/p/C87UqLfR9KX/
https://x.com/RyanSteckAuthor

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. I'm thrilled to have author and editor Ryan Steck joining us. He'll be sharing his tips for maintaining a fast pace and building excitement, not just through one book but throughout a series, just like he does in his own books including the recent release Out for Blood. This is "Keeping Up the Pace."

Jennia: Well, thanks for being here, Ryan!

Ryan: Thank you so much for having me!

Jennia: So first, why do you think pacing matters? And not just in general, but even if we look at it by genre?

Ryan: Yeah, I mean microwave America, right? Like we want everything. We want it right now. And so in today's thriller-mystery genre, pacing, in my opinion, is really king. From an editor standpoint, I'm also a critic. Like, I run a website called The Real Book Spy, and we have 3 million readers over there. And I think probably the biggest complaint I get from people reading books is "This one is slow." And what's really funny is, like, pacing, there's two ways to look at it. You gotta have a story that's fairly streamlined, right? But from a technical standpoint, you can finesse that a little too. So when you go back and you look at some of, like, the genre greats, like Tom Clancy, he would write like 40-page chapters. You could never do that today, like ever. Everything we know about people who read daily now, all the data shows is people that generally who are reading, they set aside a pre-allocated amount of time to read before bed.

Jennia: Oh!

Ryan: Like, our job is literally to keep people up past their bedtime. So if you set aside an hour to read before bed and you get a 40-page chapter, you're going to be like, "I just read for an hour and I barely got through a chapter. This book is so slow," because it's that instant gratification of, like, you're breezing through chapters. But this is where being an editor—if I'm working with someone and it's, like, our pacing is off and they don't get it. I feel like it moves quickly, the story's moving. If you—a simple trick, take the same 40-page chapter and you cut that into four 10-page chapters and you just tweak the transition between them so that you're forcing the reader to turn the page, it's a total different effect on the reader. Now they're like, "I read for an hour before bed and I read four chapters."

Jennia: Mhm.

Ryan: And it's the same pages!

Jennia: That's so interesting. That's kind of like that meme they have floating around right now about Netflix. "Do you want to watch a three-hour movie?" And everyone's like, "Oh, heck no." But they'll watch three one-hour episodes. Yeah, sort of that same mentality.

Ryan: Totally is the same mentality, yeah. I really do think it's the lack of patience and instant gratification. We want to feel like we're getting something for the time we're putting into it. So if I'm watching it, I want to move through these episodes. I feel like I'm making progress. If I'm reading, I want to see that I'm now on chapter four already, you know. I think that that's totally fine. I actually think it makes telling stories—honestly, I think it makes it easier.

Jennia: And I like that you bring up how audience expectations have changed too. It's not just the genre, but it's who's reading the genre, because I see that even a lot with fantasy where people will talk about world building, for instance, and they always bring up Lord of the Rings or Narnia, and there's always, again, that conversation about, "But those readers are not the same readers that we have today." So this just further proves that.

Ryan: Yeah, it really does. I mean, the crazy thing is, you could pretty much go to any genre or any all-time great book. Either it's a classic or more recent. You know, I mentioned Tom Clancy. Sticking with him, like, if he wrote The Hunt for Red October today, I'm not even sure it would get published. I mean, it'd still be really good, but people would read that and they'd go, "First of all, it's like 400 pages too long, right?"

Jennia: Yeah.

Ryan: People are gonna be like, "There's way too much details. I feel like I could drive the submarine by the time I'm done reading that thing." And then these long chapters, it just wouldn't work in today's world. In the same way, I think you could almost look at any classic work. No one knew what that was, and they were trying to publish it today, would it work? And honestly, probably not.

Jennia: Yeah, I think you're totally right. I completely agree. So, just moving back to pacing, that topic, I noticed in your most recent book that your main character is—it even says he's minutes away from death, and this is on the very first page. So how important do you think it is to nail that pacing right from the start?

Ryan: Oh my gosh, it's so important. So I have this weird process. Like, I'm a full hypocrite when it comes to writing instruction. Because when I'm an editor and I'm working with clients, I'm like, "You gotta outline. You got to do this. You got to do that." Because that's how I stay involved working with people and can help them along the way. As a writer, I don't listen to any of those rules—

Jennia: Oooh! (laughs)

Ryan: —I never take my own advice. I know that. I'll be honest with you. When I signed my first book deal, it was a two-book deal. My agent said, "Hey, you know, the publisher wants an outline for the second book." And I was, like, "I don't do outlines. I'm just going to write it and turn it in." And he was, like, "I'll tell 'em that. But you got a pretty big payment tied to that outline." And I was, like, "Oh! Yeah, I'll do an outline right now. Hold on, let me bang out this outline." So I'm such a hypocrite with some of that stuff. I write the ending first, okay?

Jennia: Ahh.

Ryan: I have to know where the story ends. And I go back to the beginning and sort of gauge where things need to fall in what order to get there. But in my first book, in Fields of Fire, the first thing you read is a prologue. And that's the last thing I ever wrote. I wrote the epilogue first and the prologue last. I went back, wrote chapter one, right onto my epilogue, and then I thought, "Yeah, it's just lacking. The pacing's not right. It's not grabbing the reader fast enough." So I went back. The last thing I ever wrote, was the prologue. And with Out for Blood, I wrote the ending first. And then I came back, and this was a story I wanted to write for a lot of years. I saw it in my head really, really well. But I knew you got a shock to read it right away. And I don't think you can do that in a cheap way. It has to be real, has to be genuine. And it is. And Out for Blood, if you read it and you think, "Oh, it'll all just end up totally fine," this is not—that's not how that plays out. I think that's what makes it work. So how do you identify pacing? I mean, that's probably the hardest question, right?

Jennia: Yeah! And even as an editor, if you looking at say, someone's outline, are you able to tell just from the outline where there are areas where the pacing might be off?

Ryan: Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. You can look at it and get a sense of just knowing that every chapter on average, is going to be 1500 words to 2500 words. And that's pretty standard across most fiction genres. So you start to get a sense for how quick is the story moving? How many points of view are we in? You can spot red flags. However, just because you approve an outline does not mean it's going to work. You have to—now it's about execution, right? Like you got to execute that outline and it's got to show in the writing. So for sure, there's a lot of times where the outline looks good and the execution's not there. And then you got to sort of recalibrate whether you're the editor or you're the writer. I mean, that's a pretty common thing. But I think you have to pay attention to your pacing. It's right up there with like character development. And I really believe that when people talk about when they love a book—or if you're talking about a series, it's very rarely like, "Oh, I love that series. There was once a story where this happened." They love the character—

Jennia: Mhm.

Ryan: —right? They're like, "I love that series. I love this character." So I think that those are your two most important things. And I really do put pacing first in my own stuff because I think, more so than ever, you're competing for the reader's attention. Go back even 10,15 years ago, I don't think it was an issue like it is today. People can't go two seconds without checking their phones.

Jennia: Right (laughs).

Ryan: We all do it, we all that. So I think it's about holding the reader's attention. And when you talk about like defining pacing, you have to hold their attention, engage the reader, and get them the information, and get them through this story, like, fairly quickly.

Jennia: Mhm. So when you're trying to maintain pacing, though, how do you create that balance so it's not just constantly rising action and so you have those lulls in there?

Ryan: That's a great question. I think of it like a roller coaster, you know? So you're going up, up, up, up, up, up, up, and that's fun, but it just comes "Whoosh," straight down, right? And so I don't think pacing is sustainable if you're just climbing the whole time from page one to the end, you're never going to sustain that. You just can't. So naturally, I think you have to let it not bottom out, but sort of descend a little so that we have more energy to then go back up again. And I think that works for readers because eventually you need to take a little bit of a breath. You know, my opening with Out for Blood, I would hope people read it and they get to the end and they're like, "Now I have to know what happens." and I'm going to get you there as quickly as I can. But along the way, I want to develop the conflict in these characters, and I think that's really what it's all about.

Jennia: So you talked about pacing and characters. Those are your main two. So how are the two intertwined? Because obviously the conflicts are going to have to relate to the characters somehow or be situations that they'd realistically be in. And then, of course, the effects that these situations and the results have on the characters?

Ryan: I think it's also connected. I think you could give the reader a really good reading experience so long as there's a lot of character development, and there's some conflict, and there's really good pacing as opposed to, like, just a great story idea.

Jennia: Mhm.

Ryan: You know? I really believe if you have the greatest story ever, but it's slow and no one likes the characters, no one's going to recommend that book to anybody. Or movie. Or anything. So I think it's all so connected. And I think if you let your characters dictate the heartbeats of the story that drive pacing, that's where you find success.

Jennia: Oh that's great advice. What differences are there when you are creating pacing or an outline? Maybe not an outline for yourself, but even when you're looking at outlines for other people with a standalone versus a series?

Ryan: Oh yeah, that's a great one because it is very different. Like, so, for instance, this series, this is book three. You don't have to read the first two. You could jump right in with Out for Blood. But if you read the first two, you're going to have more of an enriched reading experience. I do believe that because you're gonna—you're gonna know where the character started in the early books, you're going to know where he's at now and sort of appreciate that journey that he's on. So you buy more time with knowing that the reader's probably invested into your characters before they even pick that book up—

Jennia: Mhm.

Ryan: Most of them, right? So you'll have some newcomers along the way. But you never get to rely on that in a standalone because now no one knows who these characters are. No one has an impression of these characters. And you have to very quickly—I would say if you're writing a standalone, it's a great point that you bring up. You probably have to reverse that a little. They're both so important, but 1a is probably character development and 1b would be, you know, your pacing. Again, the story can move quickly, but if no one identifies, likes, or engages with these characters, there's no reason to read the story.

Jennia: Right. That's something that comes up a lot, not just in pacing, but even when you're crafting your first line, your first paragraph. Yeah, you have to have that connection because otherwise, like you said, no one cares. They're not going to be compelled to read on further because that engagement just isn't there. Well any—

Ryan: First lines are hard, by the way. Sorry to interrupt, but it's, like, first lines—I just want to tell you, it's like an Easter egg for me only that no one else would know. But when I originally sat down to write my first novel, Fields of Fire, it was a completely different book than what's on store shelves today—

Jennia: Oh!

Ryan: —And that came out two years ago. But it was originally going to be like a snow book, much like Out for Blood is set in Montana during a blizzard. And the first line of my original first draft of my first novel was, "For those who don't know, winters in Montana can be deadly." And I kept wanting to bring that line back because I liked it and it was near and dear to my heart. And so the opening for Out for Blood is, "For those who don't know, winters in Montana can be deadly, but it wasn't the snow that was killing Matthew Redd." And so it was, like, a big Easter egg. You know, you hit on one of those first lines. Those—I would say the first line is the hardest line of the whole book to write.

Jennia: Oh yeah, that's a good first line. I mean, it got me immediately. You know, it's one of those books where as soon as you start reading, you think, "Okay, I'm gonna like this." (laughs)

Ryan: Oh thank you. I'm thrilled to hear that! I really am.

Jennia: Yeah, you're welcome. Going back to the outlines, though, I'm just interested if someone has their own outlines, say that they've put together. Are there any tips or tricks you have for them, if they're looking at this on their own, for being able to pick up areas where the pacing might be falling flat?

Ryan: If you're looking at your story, imagine that you're in bed and you're going to read for an hour and then go to sleep. Is there a spot where you feel like, "Okay, that's a good point, to put the book down and pick it up tomorrow"? And if you find that, get rid of it. Like our goal for every genre, it's not just thrillers, mysteries, but Sci-Fi, fantasy. You want to hold the reader's attention, and you want to engage them. And like I said, you want to literally keep them up past their bedtimes and create that one sit-up-all-night-reading experience. So if you come to a point where you're like, "Yeah, this is a natural point where you could set it down," you don't want that. Rethink that. There's some little tips. There's some tricks. How do you engage readers? You can, you know, use foreshadowing, and ask questions within the narrative that really will elicit an emotional response where, like, I need that answer. And so you can end on a cliffhanger. It could be big, small. I will say, that's one right there—you know, if you're looking at your outline and you're like, "There's just no way to hold the reader and force him to turn the page." I've worked with a lot of writers, and they're like, "Well, there's no cliffhanger here. The guy just comes downstairs, and there's a knock on the door, and it's his best friend." Jennia laughs). Well, what I say is definitely just cut the scene where there's a knock on the door. Don't show the reader who's on the other side of it. Make them turn the page to find that out. It could be a small cliffhanger. You know, just anything little—like, that's where I talk about, like, you can finesse pacing a little bit these days, but look at it like that. If there's a spot to put the book down, don't just roll with that. Yeah, don't allow that into the outline, for sure.

Jennia: I think that's wonderful advice, because I think it's too easy to think that with pacing, it always has to be some monumental event that we're ending the chapter on. Like, "Well, I didn't have an avalanche yet, so I guess I'll throw an avalanche in." Or instead of it being the best friend at the door, maybe just, "Oh no. Mysterious person at the door, it has to be someone ominous and scary." And so then, of course, that takes away from your believability.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jennia: And I think that's just one of those things that it becomes so easy to do, because maybe someone has heard that advice to end on a cliffhanger, but they're just thinking on too big of a scale.

Ryan: I can't tell you how many times I've worked with newer authors as an editor, and that's a problem right there. They feel like there is no suspense. But if you have a character deep in thought or thinking about something, and it's a knock that pulls them or startles them from their thoughts. People naturally want to know, "Well, who's knocking?" All you have to do is get them to turn the page. Then you got to immediately set your scene. Pull the reader right into those pages, make them feel like they're right there, shoulder to shoulder with the characters. Make sure you're showing, not telling, right? Everything we know about readers—again, the data on this is they read usually—most of them read before bed. Very few people stop reading mid-chapter these days—

Jennia: Mhm.

Ryan: —They're gonna just finish out that chapter. It's like, "All right, I'm going to finish this chapter and then go to bed." So if you can get them to turn the page, and get them hooked, and get them into your chapter, they're probably going to finish it.

Jennia: Mhm.

Ryan: That's where your mission at the end is. Again, don't let them stop here. I call it the cycle. You want them to constantly be going, "All right, one more chapter. All right, one more chapter." And before you know it, they stayed up all night reading your book. And that's really what it's all about.

Jennia: So is that the whole cycle? Is that everything that goes into describing what the cycle is?

Ryan: I mean, well no. I mean, there's probably a lot more to it than that. That makes it sound overly simple (Jennia laughs). It's not. I mean, that's definitely a starting point, I would say. Look at it like that. A lot to learn outside of that. And it's a really hard profession to gain some ground in, for sure. I always hear right now, the odds of getting published are right up there with getting struck by lightning and winning the lottery. And that makes me laugh because I'm pretty sure if you were hellbent on getting struck by lightning, there's some things you could do to increase your odds a little bit, right?

Jennia: (Jennia laughs) Yeah, that's true!

Ryan: So you wait for thunderstorm and grab a metal pole and have at it out in the yard and you might get lucky. If you jumped in a body of water, you might really increase your odds. And you could buy more lotto tickets than one, right?

Jennia: Right. Look at us increasing the pacing just in this podcast episode.

Ryan: Yeah. You got to think in those terms, right? Like, so, okay, those are your odds is—it's really hard, but there's people that have done it before you. So what can you learn? And what can you learn from, you know, other authors? And that? That's gonna another really big tip, by the way. Don't look at your favorite authors necessarily, because every new generation is playing by a different set of rules. If Clancy got to have 40-page chapters back in the day, we definitely can't do that today. Look at your favorites for inspiration and then do your homework and read some current stuff that's being published and get a feel for, like, what is the rule book that writers are having to play by today. And look to that, I think, for some guidance.

Jennia: Yeah, exactly. Because it's just, like we've already said, that these rules are changing, that everything is dynamic. It's not some static set of rules that will be that way forever and ever. So how do you look into some of this stuff on your own? Are there places you go to, or websites you visit, people you talk to?

Ryan: I'm blessed because I'm in, like, so many different sides of the industry. As an author, as an editor, as a book spy, I talk to publishers and agents every single day and other authors every day. So it's not hard for me to stay up to speed. I hate to say this because I think so many people want to go it alone, and you absolutely can. But if you're really serious about writing and you don't know for sure where to turn, even if it's help with a query letter or you're not sure your manuscript is ready—

Jennia: Mhm.

Ryan: —someone, a beta reader, an editor, someone who can help you. I worked as an editor for 13 years and I don't trust my own eyes on my own work. I keep mentioning Clancy, but my agent was one of Clancy's editors back in the day.

Jennia: Oh wow.

Ryan: So I give stuff to my agent, John Talbot, and he'll look at—because I need those eyes, you know? I think there's real value in that. Some people feel like, "Oh, I can do this on my own." There's not a single writer working today as an author successfully who's not working with an editor. You either are getting one on the side and you're working with someone that you trust and or you're also working with someone with your publisher. So I think there’s a lot of podcasts and masterclass type things. You can go to seminars, you can gain a lot and learn a lot from that, but also try to find someone that is pretty current in the industry today and let them get eyes on your work and just have a conversation.

Jennia: Yeah. As an editor, I obviously appreciate that advice being shared because I think too, when we go to a class or attend a webinar, it's still us going back and looking at the work, and we're trying to take our fairly new knowledge of whatever it was, that was covered and trying to apply it on our own. And it's not going to have that same result as if you brought to someone who has edited, say, for 13 years or, you know, gone through hundreds of manuscripts. It's just not going to be that same result. It's sort of like if you needed to do brick work at your house and you watched a YouTube video versus the guy down the road who's been doing it for 30 years.

Ryan: Eh, you DIY some things, right? (Jennia laughs). But there's—you're going to get to a point, for sure, where it's like, we got to get a professional in here. My wife won't let me touch any home repair. She doesn't let me touch a thing, you know? So some of that stuff you could probably figure out how to do on your own, but it's reasonable to expect at a certain point, "Oh, I should probably get some help."

Jennia: Mhm. Well, then too, it's also ignoring that time is worth money too. So think about the amount of time you're investing and trying to learn all this stuff from scratch. And then are you really going to get the same results that you would from someone who already knows this and has those years of experience to back what they're doing? So then too, how much is your time worth to you?

Ryan: Absolutely. So a good editor isn't just going to fix your manuscript. They're going to teach you how to be a better writer so that you're not making the same mistakes in the second one. I've been really blessed to work with super successful, major New York Times bestselling authors, and I've worked with people that were just hoping to live the dream, just starting out. What I've always found is, like, if I worked really hard as an editor to help you identify strengths, weaknesses, and get better, my job gets easier with each book as well.

Jennia: Yeah, so true.

Ryan: Because the writer is growing and getting better at their craft as they go. And it makes my job easier, and everything's faster and more streamlined. And there's just real value in that.

Jennia: Yeah, I completely agree. So I was reading through some of your past blog posts, and when you talked about playing video games, and I wondered, has that influenced you at all when it comes to creating, pacing, or if you've drawn inspiration from that?

Ryan: So my agent represents a guy named Tu Lam, and he's a character in Call of Duty.

Jennia: Okay (laughs).

Ryan: And so, day he says to me, he's like, "Have you ever heard of Twitch?" And I'm like, "No, not really." And he's so, he's like, "Just look it up." And I'm googling it, I'm like, "This is a place where people watch other people play games?" And he was like, "Yeah." And I was like, "No, ahh, that can't work." I had a lot of older cousins that never let me play Nintendo and I had to sit and watch them. That sucked. I would never have liked it or paid money to watch, right? That was a horrible experience. But then he was like, "It's a billion dollar a year industry." And that caught me. I was like, "B as in boy? Billion dollar?" And so I looked into it, and I mean I'll play video games casually. And so for me, when you've been a book spy for a decade, but now I’m launching a career as an author, I don’t want to be the editor, I don’t want to be the book spy, I just want to get to be an author some days. And I felt like people didn’t know me and so that was a way to show them the real me, get to know really who I am. Let's have fun, we'll laugh and play games. I don’t know that gaming in general has changed the way I look at writing, but it frustrates me with gaming. Like, I think we could do some more stuff, but I do think one thing you can take away is: What do gamers love about those story modes?

Jennia: Mhm.

Ryan: It draws them in and it really comes right back to what we're talking about. If you have one level and it takes like 3 hours to get through that level, they're gonna be like, "This game sucks." (Jennia laughs). Like it's just not fun. Characters, you know, and character development and then pacing, getting through, and "I beat this level, I'm gonna beat the next one." Like that's kind of exactly what we're talking about. And that translates beyond books for sure.

Jennia: Yeah exactly. I think it's the same with any medium really, because we have this innate way of picking up on a narrative or picking up on a story and then seeing "Does it grab us or not?" no matter what medium it's in. So I think that's interesting, but also that you brought in that you were using it sort of for author branding as a way to show your authentic self. Because I think so many times too, we go through that little checklist of things to do, like, launch my author website, set up a social media account, be very careful with my color scheme, make sure it never varies. But what a fun way to do it and not really feel like you're constrained by all the advice you're usually given.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, for me, it was if there was a constraint, and I don't want to make it sound like a negative. I'm very blessed, very thankful and appreciative of my platform as The Real Book Spy. But it was, like, how do I step out of that shadow? And how do people get to know me in the face behind it? Yeah, I think, you know, that was just one way we could go about it. But I think you've got to look for new ways to do things these days. You've got to find a way to stand out. Don't just copy what everyone else is doing, because whoever you're copying is doing it better, for sure.

Jennia: Yeah.

Ryan: Find your own space and be the best version of that that you can be. That's what helps grow the audience, the readers, the listeners, and so on.

Jennia: All right, well, is there anything that you're working on now that you're allowed to share with us, or anything else exciting?

Ryan: Yeah, for sure! So Out for Blood in stores June 4th (look at that date—grab your copy now!). And you can get that anywhere books are sold. My fourth Matthew Redd book I turned in last year. The big one for me is—I mentioned this guy, Ted Bell, that I used to work with. He passed away last January. He's a major, major New York Times bestseller. But last fall, I signed on to continue his series. And so I'm now writing the Alex Hawke series, and I just turned in my first Alex Hawke novel. It’s called Ted Bell's Monarch. It’s being published by Penguin. That comes out March 25, 2025. And then Redd four will come out next summer. So, yeah, it's busy. There's a lot of stuff going on, and I'm super excited. Mostly I'm just—I feel really blessed and thankful.

Jennia: That's going to be a pretty amazing year. I'll have to go add both novels to my TBR just so I get the notice as soon as they're live.

Ryan: Thank you!

Jennia: Thank you again!

Jennia: Thank you for listening! And make sure to check out the show notes for more information. And then please join me next week as author Frankie Diane Mallis explains what it's like being an author at a romance author and reader event, which are better known as RARE. But I also want to let you know about a new feature that will allow you to text the show, and then I will be reading some of these messages on the next episode. Thanks again!