How Paid Leave Can Help Support Moms and Babies With Complications.

January is National Birth Defects Awareness Month. Every 4 ½ minutes, a baby is born with a birth defect in the United States according to the CDC That means nearly 120,000 babies are affected by birth defects each year. Birth defects can occur during any stage of pregnancy. Most birth defects occur in the first 3 months of pregnancy, when the organs of the baby are forming.  However, some birth defects occur later in pregnancy. During the last six months of pregnancy, as the tissues and organs continue to grow and develop.

Erin Jones is the Director of Legislative and Strategic Counsel for the March of Dimes and says that CT Paid Leave is essential to help the mother and the child if complications should arise. She says the extra two weeks provided in addition to the 12 weeks of income replacement for complications with pregnancy gives the necessary support that is needed in these stressful situations.

For more information on the March of Dimes:  Help us improve the health of all moms and babies | March of Dimes
For information or to apply for benefits go to: CT Paid Leave

https://ctpaidleave.org/s/?language=en_US



https://www.facebook.com/CTPaidLeave



https://www.instagram.com/ctpaidleave/



https://twitter.com/CTPaidLeave



https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ct+paid+leave

Transcript

Nancy Barrow: 0:01

Hello, Connecticut and welcome to the paid leave podcast. The title basically says it all. I'm Nancy Barrow and I will be delving into this new state program and how it can help you and your family. This podcast will give you information you should know about Connecticut paid leave, and maybe just a little bit more. Connecticut paid leave brings peace of mind to your home, family and workplace. Welcome to the paid leave podcast. January is birth defects Awareness Month. Birth defects are one of the leading causes of infant mortality in Connecticut as they are in the United States. The CDC says every four and a half minutes a baby is born with a birth defect in the United States. That means nearly 120,000 Babies are affected by birth defects every year. Birth Defects can occur during any stage of pregnancy. Most occur in the first three months of pregnancy with the organs of the baby being formed. However, some birth defects occur later in pregnancy, during the last six months of pregnancy where the tissue and organs continue to grow and develop. Connecticut paid leave gives up to 12 weeks of income replacement for pregnancy and childbirth, and bonding leave. You may also qualify for an extra two weeks for a total of 14 weeks if you experience a serious health condition during your pregnancy, which includes prenatal medical appointments and pregnancy related complications. Joining me today is Erin Jones, who is the Director of Legislative and strategic counsel for the March of Dimes. Welcome to the podcast, Erin.

Erin Jones: 1:35

Hi, thank you.

Nancy Barrow: 1:36

When I thought of March of Dimes, I always thought of kids with birth defects. But it's sort of morphed into more than that. But give me a little history of the March of Dimes, if you could,

Erin Jones: 1:45

certainly so most people know us as are may or may not know that our founding was around polio. So we really were the first organization that looked at what was happening at the time. So this is in the late 30s, that polio was happening in our country. And it was a pandemic of its time. And we really worked hard to find a reason why it was happening and a way to prevent polio. And so that's kind of our claim to fame. After polio was eradicated, we worked with advocates and researchers across the world to find that vaccine, we were finding that babies were still born, not necessarily healthy, not necessarily with the best outcomes that they could possibly have. And so that really just led us down the next path, which was birth defects. And really looking at well, what can we do? And what do we need to do to make sure that babies are born, you know, with without a birth defect. So that really just started us off into that route, which was kind of lead us down the history path of March of Dimes. So really looking at birth defects. And then from there, the research and the evidence showed us that, hey, if we make sure that women are healthy, pregnant before they're pregnant, and then during pregnancy, with a prenatal vitamin that's fortified with folic acid, we could prevent one of the top birth defects like you talked about earlier, which was neural tube defects. So really having the opportunity to reduce that birth defect in most women. And today, women take a prenatal vitamin that's fortified and don't even realize it. That's really interesting. It's a no brainer, right? No brainer. Most women know to take prenatal vitamins. Most doctors make sure that that their clients are prescribed prenatals. And it's just common now. So if we go down the history path, we continue to look at what was also happening at the same time. So while we looked at neural tube defects, we're also looking at what else was happening and what else was happening was babies were born too early. So looking at preterm birth, looking at prematurity, how it affects families, how it affects babies, how it affects our economy, and really focusing on what can we do to reduce it or eliminate it altogether. And then second to that is really looking at the disparate, you know, in disparities within preterm birth. So what we've found, we've known and looked at our data for many, many years and said, you know, preterm birth is happening one in 10. In Connecticut, one in 10. Babies are born preterm. But if you are a woman of color, you have three times more likelihood of having a baby born. That's preterm birth.

Nancy Barrow: 4:10

Have you figured out why?

Erin Jones: 4:12

So that's what we started to do. We say, Okay, we know this statistic happens, but why is it happening? And what are we going to do about it? How are we going to prevent it? Right? And that really got us on the next path, which was, yes, we care about babies. Absolutely. But we also know that mom is a part of this equation. So we really need to look before mom before baby and look at mom's health. And so we're trying to understand through the work that we're doing around preterm birth is making sure Mom is healthy before she even gets pregnant. Long before she gets pregnant. You're like that preconception health. You know, the choices that women make about all different things before they even get pregnant, so that maybe we can prevent prematurity from even happening. But then if we don't, what can we do to support them? So we have program Does that help you know, Nikki, family support programs that help support families now that are going through the NICU process, which is very, you know, stressful, you know, women are dying postpartum, and women of color are dying at higher rates of postpartum.

Nancy Barrow: 5:12

It seems really baffling to me that that is still happening, that women are dying in childbirth.

Erin Jones: 5:20

It is it's alarming considering that here in the United States, we probably spend the most on health care than any other country or industrialized nation. And yet, we still have the one of the worst poor, you know, poor birth outcomes and maternal outcome.

Nancy Barrow: 5:33

is it education do you feel or is it fear of the health community with the, you know, black and brown communities,

Erin Jones: 5:41

I'll be very, like having worked in this and working on policies, but also looking at the data and the science, it's out there. It's not one thing or another, it's a combination of many things. So are you know, and I think paid family leave as a big part of this, or could help be a big part of this, you know, looking at how women work in the workplace now, right? So women aren't home. Like in the old days, where we stayed home, and we did domestic care, and we weren't working in the home, now we're working at the home, and doing domestic care, you know, if you're a pregnant woman or a woman who just delivered, and you have to think about daycare, and you have to think about time loss from work, and you have to think about the opportunities that you might lose, right, if you don't come back to work in a certain amount of time, like all of those factors play into our society. And over time, change how we view things change how policies are created, change how we adapt to the stress, of not being able to be home with your baby having to go back to work a week or two weeks after you deliver. All of that, you know, comes into, and this is where the science comes in. And I'm not the science person, but this is where the science comes in, it changes our cellular makeup. So like all these policies, like we don't think of it that way. But it's it really happens, it changes and evolves in our infrastructure,

Nancy Barrow: 6:56

you know, paid leave is a great program. And Connecticut, we're so lucky that we have it because there's not a

Erin Jones: 7:00

So March of Dimes did a study back in 2020. And we lot of states that have it, we do give up to 12 weeks of income replacement, and another two if there's complications, because the pregnancy so they can have up to 14 weeks of income replacement. And when you are a single mom, that's vital. That's whether I'm going to have to quit my job or take care of my baby. And there's no choice there, right, there's no choice of what's going to happen. So we can alleviate that stress on that mother. And if there's a partner, the partner can take up to 12 weeks of income replacement, to help with the bonding leave after the baby's born, that really helps with not having to put the baby in childcare right away. That's an overburdened sector as well. were looking at how paid family leave impact positively can impact the world economy and women specifically. And what we saw was by women who have access to paid family leave their 20% There's a 20% reduction in them leaving the workforce. So think about that from the business perspective, right. So you find out your your employees pregnant, the first thing that employee or manager is thinking is oh, gosh, I'm not you know, like this is going to be a burden. It's going to be, you know, cost to me on my health care benefits. If that person is covered by them, I'm going to have a loss of am I gonna have to find someone to cover it cetera, et cetera, instead of thinking what a joyous occasion, right? You know that this person is going to have a baby like we should celebrate the birth of this child. Now. It's like the stress of what does that mean for me?

Nancy Barrow: 8:34

Yeah. And it's interesting if we were talking about like other countries, and how they really say, Oh, you need to take a year off, like you need to go right to you and bond with your baby.

Erin Jones: 8:43

And we don't even let anybody take time. Yeah, it's mind boggling to me that other countries who don't necessarily have the the economies that we have, that we share here in the United States, but yet have really good paid family leave. So it's just a given, it is a natural thing that if you're going to have a child, it is expected you would stay home with your child for X amount of months to bond to heal, to create, you know, and to learn from each other what this new family unit looks like. And that way, when you come back to work, and year later, you're a little bit more adjusted.

Nancy Barrow: 9:16

Yeah.

Erin Jones: 9:17

And you're ready to come back to work because you're like, Okay, we've had a whole year to get through, like really understand each other. Figure out what our daycare plans going to be cetera.

Nancy Barrow: 9:26

they value that time with the family. I think we just don't value that time.

Erin Jones: 9:32

Yeah no, I think I agree with you, unfortunately. But the positive is we're in Connecticut, and as a native myself of Connecticut, I get to say, you know, wonderful things about us. But I think that our paid family leave product is really taking taking all of that into consideration and what families look alike, right? The dynamic of a family a family isn't necessarily gender based mom, woman, dad, male, but looking at all different families and how they're made up and how paid family leave kids. support their family and what their family looks like.

Nancy Barrow: 10:02

Yeah, I think that's very, really important. Yeah, it's been important for us and, and we feel like that, you know, extended version of what a family is for caregiver leave like if someone is helping a pregnant woman, and a lot of times moms go and help or sisters go and help if she's a single mom. And so that extended version of family that extended, at least look and glance of what family is, it can be your best friend, it doesn't have to be blood related, you know. And when you talk about related by affinity, it's just it really opens up the avenues of who can help you.

Erin Jones: 10:37

Yeah, and think about, you know, like, think about what we just talked about earlier with a preterm birth. If a family has an unexpected, pre, you know, prematurity, that child may be in the NICU for an extended period of time. So now what what does that family do? Does that mom now have to or the dad have to make the choice between Do I go to work? Or do I stay by the bedside with my baby? That's a tough decision, and families make that decision every day? Yeah. And that's very difficult.

Nancy Barrow: 11:03

We're here to make it a little easier. So you don't have to make those hard choices, you know, at least you can get some income replacement to let you breathe a little bit.

Erin Jones: 11:11

Yeah becasue those you don't know, like, those families don't know what the future brings. I mean, really, none of us do. But when you start out that way, it's nice to know that, hey, maybe this is an opportunity for me not to have to leave my job right away, if that inevitably becomes the issue. But in the meantime, I can take a little bit of time, I can get some of my income replaced, so that we're not not only are we not going to work, but we're also not getting the income because let's face it today, I don't think many families can afford to do that. Yeah, oftentimes they're forced to do that

Nancy Barrow: 11:39

Was the March of Dimes in Connecticut, or is it now all national? How did that happen?

Erin Jones: 11:45

So we've evolved over over the years. So it's always been a national organization. And then over time, we had chapters in every single state. And we still have a presence across the country, but we don't necessarily have a physical office in every single state with COVID. And like many other organizations, we've gotten virtual, so many people are remotely, you know, throughout the country, we all bubble up to one national organization. And how

Nancy Barrow: 12:08

How did COVID affect March of Dimes? Did it affect you guys?

Erin Jones: 12:12

Of course, I mean, I think it affected every aspect of human life across the world, not just the United States, but specifically for us. Yes. So you know, we did have offices that were open, and we were forced to close all of our bricks and mortar. And everybody went to a virtual stance. And we still pretty much have that now. Everybody's pretty much virtual. There are a few of, you know, standing offices across the country, but not many. Our national headquarters are in Arlington, Virginia. So we still do have a national presence. But yeah, and then and then coming out of COVID, it was really difficult. It's still difficult for families to make decisions about hey, how are we, you know, who are we going to give donations to? There's so many organizations we care about, but we only have so much to stretch, right? We all hear about it. Every aspect of our life has gone up in terms of costs, food, housing, gas, electricity, but oftentimes your check doesn't, you know, like our donor bank, and you know, private donations, which is pretty much what we do. We're not we're self funded. They're down. Like many organizations, we're not alone. Many nonprofits are feeling it.

Nancy Barrow: 13:15

I know that that's a real challenge for a lot of non profits, with the economy being so tough and donations going down. Where did you have to cut? Like, what did you have to do? How did you have to pivot? You know, are you still working on your advocacy?

Erin Jones: 13:29

Oh, yeah, no advocacy stayed strong. Because the other thing we learned during COVID, is there was a lot of opportunity of opportunities for us to look at policies specifically for pregnant women. So think back to COVID is in the midst of happening everybody shelter down, well, guess what babies still are born, women were still pregnant and still had to deliver in hospitals. And so protocols and hospitals changed. And one of the big things we looked at, and we heard from our women, we heard from our consumers across the country was, hey, I'm pregnant. With the hospital policies that are in place, I can't bring my significant other my support can't come with me. During labor and delivery. I literally am dropped off at the door washed away. And I never see my significant other until the baby is born, and I'm ready for discharge. And we immediately stepped in with other advocates across the country and said, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is no way for pregnant women to deliver. We need to put good, you know, health parameters in place, but women do deserve. Birthing people deserve to have the support of whoever their support person is when I say you can have a whole class, you know, a whole roomful anymore, but at least one. Yeah. You know, and so that was a huge victory for you know, advocacy, but it was something that happened in the pandemic, and I don't think any hospital meant meant to exclude people, but we had to, they have to stop the spread of the disease and the virus, but it really affected pregnant women.

Nancy Barrow: 14:54

What do you focus on and how do you start doing the research so that that can change?

Erin Jones: 14:59

We have an in entire research department, I'm on the policy side. But we do have a department that works in research and partners with other research entities across the country. So it's not like we march of dimes or personally doing it in our office, we partner with lots of institutions, a lot of our academia that are doing this research, right, so we partner with them, give them the funding, basically, to continue to do the research that they need to do to help us find the answers, like what is happening. So a good example of that is looking at, how can we improve how things are happening at the hospital like this COVID-19 It's a quality improvement opportunity. It's an opportunity for us to work with where women are delivering, and saying, hey, what can we do to make this a better experience, both for the woman but also for the baby, and so that we have positive outcomes. So looking at those kinds of opportunities around quality improvement. So we do that we have an entire department that dedicates itself to working with partners across the country that are doing this research already. We do federal policy, we do state policy, but I would for me, the most exciting part is that we really engage advocates. So everyday moms and dads, and folks that aren't even parents yet, who really care about this issue, who want to make a difference, and say, Hey, these disparities aren't right, what can we do? And for me, that's probably the most exciting part is I get paid to be a lobbyist, right? I get paid to go and talk to legislators. But when I see somebody who doesn't, who takes the day off from work, who takes the time out of their busy day, to speak on behalf of the March of Dimes policies or our mission that speaks volumes to me. And that is the most exciting part is that's a page from the days of old of when we all were spokespeople about polio, everybody wanted to make sure everybody was safe. And to know that that still continues today, where we have strong advocates who join us.

Nancy Barrow: 16:51

II think that's amazing! I know that there was a recent study that said that polio was sort of on the uptick. Did you hear about that? Because of the non vaxxers?

Erin Jones: 17:02

Well, unfortunately, yeah. Unfortunately, that's kind of what happened. I think that's a some people who were choosing not to vaccinate their children, for the childhood immunizations, was around long before COVID happened. I think that things got convoluted during COVID. I think that became very political, which is unfortunate. And so yeah, unfortunately, because people are not vaccinating for polio, which is one of the core childhood vaccines that people receive. There's that opportunity for it to start to rise and come back, which is really scary. Because most of us in our, you know, age bracket, we didn't live in the country when that was happening. No. So we don't we have not really experienced what happens. COVID has a taste of it. Polio is a whole nother thing. Measles, we saw this outbreaks of measles five years ago. And that was scary. Measles is extremely contagious. We don't want to go back to that. So I think we do a lot of education around vaccines and making sure that people understand, especially for pregnant women, that they're safe, they're effective. They're the best way to protect yourself and your unborn child clean water and vaccines. So those are probably the two biggest things that have happened to public health that have gotten us to where we are today.

Nancy Barrow: 18:13

What do you think about mental health and well being in pregnant moms? it's extremely important. We've I think, for the last 10 years, maybe even more, many advocates have been talking about what we talked about, right? The stress of having a baby, your body is going through a complete change, but so is your mind. All those hormones, like just the the effect of you can read as many books as you want. But you came home with another little human being. And what does that mean for a woman who's caring for this child. And we don't do like we talked about, we don't have a lot of support for families. We don't have a lot of support for women. And I think that's played a toll on our mental health. And we just didn't talk about it. And I think in the last three years, we've really started to, you know, talk about it and elevate it, take the stigma away from it, so that women can talk about how they're feeling and get the support that they need. So that they don't make terrible choices, or feel forced to make terrible choices or live with it. Even worse. Depression, and anxiety can be a serious health condition. So we do cover up to 12 weeks for mental health as well.

Erin Jones: 19:23

So I have to give a shameless plug for Connecticut. So Connecticut, not only do we have paid family leave that covers those mental health visits at any time, you know, after pregnancy, but we also extended our Medicaid product in Connecticut. So Medicaid for any woman who is eligible for Medicaid, they now have up to 12 months, or, you know, have basically have coverage for Medicaid so that they can see a provider. So not only can they now get time off from work, get paid for it. They also have health insurance coverage for it. That's why I think we've done really good things and can I get to make sure that we're supporting our moms, especially in the postpartum period.

Nancy Barrow: 19:57

It's coming up to 2024, what are the challenges that the March of Dimes is facing?

Erin Jones: 20:03

Well I think that all of us that are in nonprofit, it's just a changing world, and how people donate. And people really want to see their money at the local level. Right. So we're a national organization that works on all these national programs, which do filter down to community level. But I think there is a big, big feeling from donors that they want to see how it's implementing, or having having an impact on their community where they live. And I think sometimes that's a challenge for those of us who are in big organizations that may not be in every single hospital, we may not be at every health care center. But overall, we're working on programs and policies that affect everybody across the country, in those programs. So I think that's kind of hard sometimes, is to get that message out, that we are actually working in your community. It's just not seen. So we've had some new programs, we're working on some mobile health vans across the country that are bringing prenatal care and vaccines and different things to communities that don't have. We just issued a report on the maternity care deserts. So it's looking at commute rural health, looking at communities that don't have a hospital, or don't have a maternity unit that's close to them. And that continues to be a challenge for us across the country.

Nancy Barrow: 21:18

A lot of maternity wards are closing down. A lot of hospitals are closing them down.

Erin Jones: 21:23

Yeah, that's a major concern for us. And one of the big things we're looking at 2024 is what is the root of this? So is it reimbursement rates? Is it Medicaid reimbursement rates? I mean, that's what we hear. We don't know. I'm hypothesizing right now. Because we haven't really looked at it close enough. Is it that, you know, hospitals just aren't making enough money in maternity care? Because our population is not, we're not having as many babies as we maybe did 510 years ago. So what is it what's causing us to have so many maternity closing across the country? And what can we do to mitigate it? What can we do to as a community, right, as a as a nation, and some of our states are doing a great job of looking at it themselves as in trying to think of what are innovative ways that we can do to support them at a government level to make sure hospitals don't close? So that's a big challenge for us going into 2024.

Nancy Barrow: 22:15

For the solvency? Right, isn't that what a lot of hospitals are claiming? It's the solvency aspect of it.

Erin Jones: 22:21

So how do we solve for that

Nancy Barrow: 22:22

well you're doing the mobiles? Right?

Erin Jones: 22:25

Right. You know, I'm like, What are we going to do, like women have to have a place to deliver that safe. And, you know, we don't want women traveling three hours in a car and potentially delivering in a vehicle. That's not safe, either. There's been pockets of Connecticut for many years that have had a lack of access, because we don't have necessarily a lot of OB GYN providers in a certain area part of the state. And we've tried to piece things together. But there is, you know, no one thinks of Connecticut as being rural health, right. No one thinks of Connecticut as being an area where you might not have a hospital close to. But close means if you're sitting at 95, in two hours, traffic, right. Right. Possible may be there, but you can't get there. I mean, you have to think about those patterns. Like it's it's a real thing. It really happens.

Nancy Barrow: 23:12

So what policies could we say that you are doing to protect moms and to protect babies?

Erin Jones: 23:19

Oh, my gosh, there's lots of them. But I would say, specific to what we've been talking about today, brown paid family leave is really looking at the federal family act like trying to get a better piece of legislation passed, that would encompass across the country, right across the country, making sure that every state has paid family leave, like Connecticut has, right making sure all moms have access, because sometimes you might not be in the state that you live in and deliver. And so we want to make sure that everybody has the same access, and making sure we live quality. I think that's another pieces, you might have access to a hospital, but is the same quality across the board. Not always. So really looking at that for moms, there is without question, you have a level of comfort knowing that your provider looks like you talk like you has similar cultural values that you have. So I think that we as a country need to look at our all of our health care, points of access for them to get education. And making sure that it's open to everybody, right across all different nationalities, all different folks. And I think because it's expensive, like thinking about how do we forgive some of these loans to get more people enticed to want to be doctors that want to get into the healthcare field, who want to be a midwife who want to be a nurse, who want to be a lactation consultant, a doula like all the programs that we say we want to have diversity, but we don't have programs that that are conducive to their lifestyle, or being able to allow them to get into the program. Becoming a doctor is not inexpensive. It's a huge burden. Besides all the education, it's there's a financial component as well. Yeah, so I think that we have to look at Our workforce because we hear from our doctors all the time that there's more and more retiring every year.

Nancy Barrow: 25:06

And the doulas are a really big portion of, of helping women during the birthing process network,right?

Erin Jones: 25:14

They're not necessarily the medical people, but they're the support that help women feel like I'm not doing this by myself. Right? And what can I do? What are the services that I might need in my community? How can you help me hook up so that I don't feel well, because not every woman who delivers is 100% ready to go back to work? Some might be, but most people are not. But this, I think this is an opportunity for them to make those choices for themselves that makes the most sense and not feel forced into a decision. It gives women options, and families. Because now your significant other, whatever that is for you, and your family can also stay with you. Yeah, it's important. I believe, that's a big piece,

Nancy Barrow: 25:58

we've seen a lot of spouses taking time off, I've talked to fathers who are so thankful that they could take up to three months off of work. And, you know, the newer generation is doing that there's not that stigma anymore, which is wonderful.

Erin Jones: 26:14

And that's what we need. Like, that's the family unit, whatever everybody's family unit looks like, we need to support all of them. And you know, and the baby, right? So if they feel bonded with their parents and feel like they have that security, like they're just going to do better in life, too.

Nancy Barrow: 26:29

Oh yeah, the outcome is incredible. When you have both parents at home, it shows, you know, a dramatic increase in the well being of the baby.

Erin Jones: 26:38

So we want to we want to be as supportive as we possibly can. And I think Connecticut's paid leave is just like, coupled with the other programs we have just gives women that much better opportunities.

Nancy Barrow: 26:49

any final thoughts?

Erin Jones: 26:50

In my own personal life, I was just telling someone who was here last night for dinner that she was she was going through an adoption. And I said, Hey, I'm gonna send you a note. You need to know, and I sent her all of those Infograms that me, yeah, infographics that, hey, look into this, you need to let your employer know that if you need to take time off from the official adoption happens, you have this opportunity to get some income replacement.

Nancy Barrow: 27:15

Yeah, when you're adding to your family, it can be childbirth, right, your own child, or it can be fostering or adopting. So we do give up to 12 weeks for all of those so they can bond with that child. I mean, that's really important.

Erin Jones: 27:28

Yeah And she didn't even know that she's like, Oh, I thought it was just for birth. And I'm like, No, it's also for adoption. It's also for foster care. So take advantage of it. And you know, as a single mom, she was thinking herself, like, I don't think I can take that much time off. And you can, you might not be able to take a lot but at least you can take some and know that the little bit you know, like whatever works for you and your employer. You have this income replacement. So you're not also not only out of work, but also not, you know, bringing in an income.

Nancy Barrow: 27:54

Erin Jones, the Director of Legislative and strategic counsel for the March of Dimes, thank you so much for being on the podcast and, and talking to me about all the things with moms and babies, NICU'S everything that was important that we needed to discuss chronic diseases, all that stuff is really important that we cover, and people understand that Connecticut paid leave is here for them.

Erin Jones: 28:15

Well thank you for having me. It's been great talking to you about paid family leave.

Nancy Barrow: 28:18

For more information you can go to CTP leave.org. This has been another edition of the paid leaf podcast. Please like and subscribe so you'll be notified about new podcasts that become available. Connecticut paid leave is a public act with a personal purpose. I'm Nancy Barrow and thanks for listening.