April is Autism Acceptance Month. According to the CDC, in 2023 one in 36 children were diagnosed as falling somewhere on the autism spectrum. The cost of caring for people with autism is predicted to reach $461 billion by 2025 in the U.S.
Alanna, who has three children, knew very early on that something was different about her youngest son Lawson. She had to wait 2 years for further testing, and Lawson was diagnosed as Level 2 on the autism spectrum. Alanna feels that receiving an early diagnosis was very important to Lawson's wellbeing and treatment plan. She sees the beauty in the little things that Lawson does, like reading and drawing.
Dr. Kristine Schlitchting is the founder and CEO of Hopewell Health Solutions, a therapeutic and psychiatric practice offering intensive outpatient therapy for children as young as 8 who suffer from a variety of disorders, including autism. She believes that a child's autism is a broader family issue, and that all the stakeholders including teachers and schools need to be on the same page to provide the best treatment strategy. Dr Schlitchting encourages parents to utilize CT Paid Leave benefits, as there is usually a time commitment needed from the parents or caregivers with intensive outpatient therapy. Whether it is driving the child for treatment or being involved in family therapy, parents need the flexibility that CT Paid Leave can provide.
April is Autism Acceptance Month. According to the CDC, in 2023 one in 36 children were diagnosed as falling somewhere on the autism spectrum. The cost of caring for people with autism is predicted to reach $461 billion by 2025 in the U.S.
Alanna, who has three children, knew very early on that something was different about her youngest son Lawson. She had to wait 2 years for further testing, and Lawson was diagnosed as Level 2 on the autism spectrum. Alanna feels that receiving an early diagnosis was very important to Lawson's wellbeing and treatment plan. She sees the beauty in the little things that Lawson does, like reading and drawing.
Dr. Kristine Schlitchting is the founder and CEO of Hopewell Health Solutions, a therapeutic and psychiatric practice offering intensive outpatient therapy for children as young as 8 who suffer from a variety of disorders, including autism. She believes that a child's autism is a broader family issue, and that all the stakeholders including teachers and schools need to be on the same page to provide the best treatment strategy. Dr Schlitchting encourages parents to utilize CT Paid Leave benefits, as there is usually a time commitment needed from the parents or caregivers with intensive outpatient therapy. Whether it is driving the child for treatment or being involved in family therapy, parents need the flexibility that CT Paid Leave can provide.
Hello, Connecticut and welcome to The Paid Leave Podcast. The title basically says it all. I'm Nancy Barrow and I will be delving into this new state program and how it can help you and your family. This podcast will give you information you should know about Connecticut Paid Leave, and maybe just a little bit more. Connecticut Paid Leave brings peace of mind to your home, family and workplace. Welcome to The Paid Leave Podcast. April is autism acceptance month and the cost of caring for people with autism is predicted to reach $461 billion by 2025 In the US. Autism and other related social disorders affect hundreds of 1000s of adults and children across the United States. It's known as a spectrum disorder with many different levels. Researchers have recently compiled a list of the top 15 states that have the highest rates of autism. Connecticut is listed at number 9 on that list. Researchers aren't really sure exactly what causes autism, and it's unlikely that geographical area directly affects the chance of a child being born with autism. And that comes from the autism parenting magazine. The latest research in 2023 from the CDC shows that one in 36 Children is now diagnosed with autism. It's an increase from one and 44 just two years ago. And since the report was recently released, the data is likely to stay the same for 2024. Although autism can be diagnosed before a child reaches the age of two most kids are diagnosed only after the age of four. 40% are nonverbal, 44% have average or above average intellectual ability, and 31 have an intellectual disability. Autism Speaks defines autism spectrum disorder as a broad range of conditions characterized by challenges with social skills, repetitive behavior, speech, and nonverbal communication. Connecticut Paid Leave can help with income replacement to take care of your own serious health condition or that of a loved one, and caregiver leave allows a parent or guardian to take their child to doctor's appointments, treatments and therapies, whether that's physical or speech or occupational or mental health. Autism is considered to be a chronic condition, which then allows the patient to apply for Connecticut Paid Leave every year for up to the 12 weeks of income replacement with appointments, treatments and flare ups. Joining the podcast today are Dr. K she has a PhD, she's worked extensively with children. She is the CEO and founder of the Hopewell Health Solutions that also features the Academy for tweens and teens intensive outpatient therapy programs. They have seven locations. I'll put all that information into the podcast show notes. Dr. Kay, thank you so much for being onThe Paid Leave Podcast.
Dr. K:
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Nancy Barrow:
And joining us is my friend Alanna. I have known Alanna for I don't know over 20 years, we work together at the same radio station. And for as long as I've known Alanna, she has always wanted to be a mom. Mason's in college, Mara is 16. And after you got divorced, you met someone new and you got pregnant. And I think everyone was like, wow, Alanna is pregnant, and she had Lawson.
Alanna:
Thank you for all the kind words.
Nancy Barrow:
Well, thanks for being on The Paid Leave Podcast. I'm excited to talk to you.
Alanna:
Would you like to hear about my little man?
Nancy Barrow:
Yes. So tell me a little bit about the story of Lawson.
Alanna:
The story is of Lawson is he was a COVID baby very much a surprise for me as a quote unquote, geriatric pregnant woman, normal pregnancy, normal birth, everything was fine. And when he was about nine months old, I started noticing little differences. What I will tell you it was amazing with how many people told me I was crazy. Pediatricians, friends, families, partners, everyone said I was crazy, which is the most disheartening thing to hear from people that are supposed to be your support. And I said no, something's not right. And I know from my previous two children who were speech delayed, that it was more than just a speech delay, like it was more than we just don't want to talk. Like there was some wire of communication that wasn't connected in Lawson's brain. We got an early intervention, which is a huge plus and thankful that the State offers it. And when he was 16 to 18 months, we got him tested for autism and autism spectrum disorder, and he was autistic and on the spectrum. It wasn't really an official diagnosis, but we got put on a waiting list to see a developmental pediatrician which two years later was the first time that we were able to get Lawson in.
Nancy Barrow:
Wow!
Alanna:
The waitlist is crazy. So we got him in and at the time because it was although it was post COVID Everything was done virtually. So we had to send videos, and through that we got our diagnosis that he is level two on the autism spectrum.
Nancy Barrow:
And what does that mean? Level two Alanna?
Alanna:
My knowledge, and I am not a professional so maybe the doctor could better answer. Level one is more like what was known as Asperger's like high functioning is just a little bit off kilter. Level two is a little bit more like with Lawson it's called Autism Spectrum Disorder. What I wasn't aware of, is how big that spectrum is, though someone like someone, I can only speak to my experience with my son and what level two means to us level two to somebody else can be a completely different child. And that is what's so hard, I think to understand about autism spectrum disorder and children that are labeled on the spectrum.
Nancy Barrow:
So what did that mean for you as as a parent?
Alanna:
Well, one selfishly speaking, it meant vindication, because I knew. As we're going deeper and deeper into what he needs, it's becoming very stressful. And I will say there are some people who have children on the spectrum that throw them into therapy, ABA, OT, speech, for me, and for Lawson, and our life, I at this point, don't feel he needs that much therapy, you know, he was diagnosed early, which is great. And maybe as he progresses, he might need more. But for us and for my family and for my other kids, because I can't neglect them either, right? We're doing what we feel is best for our family and for Lawson.
Nancy Barrow:
Do you hear that a lot that when parents have multiple children, that it is a lot that it's a lot for them?
Dr. K:
I think it's a lot, even sometimes with one, I think it's always a balancing act, you know, and I think Alanna, what you're doing is like so awesome. Because there are a lot of people that have a lot of different opinions about what you're supposed to do. And suppose it experts in this than that, I always tell people listen, you're the mom, you're the parent instinctually, you should, like I want you to tune into what is best for your child, I can give you whatever recommendations. But ultimately, you know, that's a family decision that that that's a decision, you are the biggest stakeholder of your child's life, you know, whether that's school decisions, or decisions about therapies or whatever you're talking about vaccinations or whatever, you know, that is a parental choice, what you have to understand what doctors and I don't want to throw anyone under the bus. But like, because we see so many people all the time, we do have a tendency to put people into boxes, right. And some of that is insurance based. And some of that is based on our training. And some of that is just because we've honestly gotten into like, that's what we do, right? And a lot of people want that they want to know like, what box is it? As I get older, I'm much more conservative about doing that, because I have seen the downfall of that. And I have seen even just within my own practice young kids that were labeled autistic by this suppose that expert and they come in and, and I have them in IOP. And I will tell the parents, I'm like, I do not see a label of autism here. And the kid is wrapped up in this autism diagnosis and like what is wrong with me and it could be anything right? Depression, anxiety, I don't want people to be diagnoses, I want people to be people that have hurdles to overcome. Because of Google in the age of information and everything that's out there. It's extremely dangerous in terms of throwing labels around and people getting caught up in because that person has autism or depression, anxiety, and they can't do X, Y and Z. I can't do XY and Z and kids are so vulnerable to what they can do and what they can't do and what their future is. I don't want to limit anybody and anything. Look at Elon Musk, right? Look at all these people that I mean the smartest people the most innovative people that we have have different minds. They're autistic, they're dyslexic that they have you know, depression, anxiety, you know, artists, like you think about the the biggest people that make the most amazing things. They are not the norm, this whole labeling thing and then the googling thing is not good.
Alanna:
I've always said to my other two kids normal is boring, who wants to be normal? Artists, performers, Business people, anyone who is really successful in a certain trade isn't, quote unquote, normal.
Dr. K:
They are neurodiverse. Yeah.
Nancy Barrow:
Because they can hyper focus, right?
Dr. K:
They have they see things. I mean, like, their brains are literally different when they look at CAT scans with people that have like dyslexia and people that have autism, and even some people who have depression, like their brains look different, their brains are operating differently. So they're accessing a different part of their brain. So they're able to think outside of the box and everything innovative comes from people who say, Well, that doesn't work. How about this, and people initially think that's crazy. And then that ends up being what everybody recognizes was a good idea.
Nancy Barrow:
And I see your videos, Alanna and you know, Lawson is dancing with a group of kids. And he loves his dog. Like, he is so cute with your dog. You know, you take him to Mystic Aquarium, and he's very inquisitive, you know, so what does he like? And what have you found that he doesn't like?
Alanna:
He doesn't love lots of different food, which is a very, very typical thing with children on the spectrum. There's very few things he actually doesn't like. He's sometimes scared of new experiences, but if we're there to kind of slowly coax him through it, he'll eventually kind of like, oh, I kind of like this. As you he loves music, he loves to dance. He loves YouTube. Lately, he's into drawing. And much like what the doctor just said, you actually could see him thinking like, it's we I don't know how else to explain it. But he looks at a logo, and then looks at the paper and draws looks, but you could see his mind process is the most beautiful thing. His positive and a superpower as I call it is he's hyperlexia, which means he loves letters, and he actually had almost four can read sight. So and, and it's, it's a beautiful, like, I can't even express how beautiful it is. But funny enough, is in some world, and in some therapies, he'd still be considered nonverbal, because his patience and his understanding of communication, if you ask him, How was his day, he'll look at you blankly. So it's sort of bizarre. And again, it kind of goes back to like, who was anyone to tell me what, to me my son is verbal. He we are in speech therapy. He speaks. He explains what he needs, maybe in his own way. But if you know him, and his teachers know him, and his daycare providers know him, there's no question. So he loves to read, he loves books, he loves our dogs, when we're somewhere and I'm not wanting to hide things. So when we're out somewhere, and someone's like, well, he doesn't look autistic. But like, what does autistic mean? Again, because the spectrum is so broad, and I'm guilty of before I had loss and thinking that people on the spectrum are a certain way. The good thing about having Lawson is that he has opened my eyes to so many beautiful things about people on the spectrum, and no matter what level they are on.
Nancy Barrow:
What advice would you give parents who may have gotten a diagnosis?
Alanna:
A couple of things. One, it's okay to throw temper tantrums, and be sad, and cry and be angry, because there's positives of him being right now I've done all of those things. I'm angry, I'm upset, I'm old, and I'm tired. The amount of effort that has to be put into it, is a lot of effort. However, he is a ray of light. He's just adorable, and he's smart. And the other advice that I would give to parents and it might not be great advice is don't take advice from other people. You need to do what works best for your family and for your child. And for your own mental health and their own mental health and your child that's on the spectrum. It's not all about him or her it, there's got to be a dynamic that you all kind of have to compromise and do what's best for everybody.
Nancy Barrow:
Yeah Dr. Kay, I think you've talked about that to me. It's a very holistic approach, right? The family is involved with therapy and the kids because it's a family issue.
Dr. K:
And sometimes school sometimes you have to have schools involved as well. There's a lot of stakeholders in kids lives, and just treating a child by themselves in a closed room without parental involvement, which is actually the way a lot of therapists do it. We don't do that at Hope. Well, I don't agree with that model. But that sort of closed door model where I'm for the child is is my patient and I don't have any communication without either I don't have communicate with the pediatrician or communicate with the outside schools and you know, and not really letting the parents to know what's happening in therapy, that is not a model I recommend, I really think parents need to be very good consumers of mental health therapy, I think you need to know what's happening in mental health sessions, I think you need to ask the therapist, what they're doing, how they're doing it, what the goals are for therapy and regular communication and ask them to communicate with the other stakeholders in that child's life so that everybody can be on the same page to help move a child forward. Children are not little adults, so they should not be treated as such.
Nancy Barrow:
Interesting, and what are you thinking about school for Lawson? Like how do you envision that?
Alanna:
He is in preschool right now. He goes four days a week for half days. I've always known where we live, the preschool program for kids with special needs is top notch. In fact, not excited is the wrong word. But when I knew that Lawson was on the spectrum, I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna be so comfortable bringing him to school. You know, I'm also a little bit of a control freak. I like to be involved in every aspect of it Lawson's care, because I don't want closed doors. I don't want to map like a lot of therapy is trying to mask the Autism. I don't want to do that. I want him to be loud and proud, positive and negative. You know, there are things that needs to be worked on. He he needs visual aids to like, remember routines. And but again, he's only four. I think, from my experience, a lot of therapies, and a lot of facilities expect so much of him. And I'm like he's four, some of the kids that are not on the spectrum that have trouble following directions, you know, so I actually trust my school and the people that are working with Lawson, more than I trust the advice on his developmental pediatrician.
Dr. K:
Mm hmm.What school is he in? Because I'm just wondering,
Alanna:
Valley View and Portland, Connecticut.
Dr. K:
Oh, okay. So I'm in Marlborough.
Alanna:
Okay I mean, no, yeah, pretty, but like, again, like his teachers. And and here's the thing I'm going to caveat that with, because my older two kids did also go through the school system. So there's some familiarity with who I am not that I am anyone, but they know my older kids, they know that they're good kids. And, you know, here now 12 years later, is another little sibling, you know, so but they've been helpful. But they approached me with, hey, we're having issues with this, we're having issues with that. Like, I also now I'm in the process of he's the only kid on the spectrum at his daycare. So they're kind of not knowing how to handle certain things that he does. But I'm in the process of trying to connect everybody so we could do what's best for him. And the way I look at it, I look at it as twofold. People that are at the daycare are learning really, if they will also want to get into childhood education, how to deal with someone on the spectrum and how to deal with someone that's a little bit not your neurotypical, normal child. Also, it gives Lawson growth, to be with kids that are neurotypical, I'm in the process of getting the school to talk to his speech therapists to then talk to the daycare, and all be one big circle and one big village for Lawson.
Nancy Barrow:
What are your hopes for Lawson? And when you see his future, what are your hopes for him?
Alanna:
Oh, my God, he's so flippin smart, and he loves music. So I, I really envision something in the arts. What I actually what I just found out, and I thought this was interesting, and it's way down the line. But there are some colleges that actually have programs for neurodivergent people. So, which is huge, because again, a lot of this is unknown to me. And maybe for some people, it's super known, but like, I'm like, oh, there's colleges where, you know, and again, I don't know what he's going to be like at 18. But it made me so happy to know that there are options, because putting his brain to waste is a sad, sad thing for everyone in this world.
Dr. K:
Yeah by the time he goes to college, I mean that that's that's rapidly developing so quickly that people are recognizing that these kids can absolutely go to college with support routes that a lot of kids that the typical college experience does not work. So colleges are rapidly changing to try to accommodate different kinds of kids, whether they have depression or anxiety or they have autism, or they have certain learning needs. They you know, they need money also. So that's part of it too. But that absolutely. By the time he goes to college that's already started and they're just rapidly building these programs.
Nancy Barrow:
Yeah it's really good. I know I reached out to you, Alanna about Connecticut Paid Leave, and it's here for you if you need to take Lawson for any type of therapy. And you can put in for whether it's block leave, or intermittent, or reduced schedule, but I know that you have a really supportive company that you're working for.
Alanna:
And I appreciate that so much like it's it's I'm fortunate that where I work now, is extremely understandable small family run company. However, there is some comfort knowing that Connecticut Paid Leave if and when I need it will be there.
Nancy Barrow:
Well I appreciate you so much. I know you have to get back to work. But I want to thank you so much for sharing your personal and your beautiful story about Lawson.
Alanna:
Anytime, Nance, I appreciate you and all your work that you're doing.
Nancy Barrow:
Well thanks. And thank you for being on The Paid Leave Podcast. Continued success with Lawson and be the amazing mom, you always are.
Alanna:
Thank you. I'll talk to you later
Nancy Barrow:
Okay. Dr. K, when you heard Alanna's story, what were your thoughts?
Dr. K:
I think that she's like a phenomenal mother. I think she's the kind of mom that I really try to encourage our parents to be in terms of listening to recommendations, but really doing what's the best thing for your family, you know, making sure that you keep everything in perspective, you know, I think people get very upset about and rightly so about certain diagnoses or certain. You know, for example, at Hopewell health in the IOP program, sometimes we're seeing kids that are coming out of hospitals, because of, you know, suicidality or suicide ideation or self harm, you know, these kids have have been in hospital, you know, sometimes overnight, but sometimes for even a couple of weeks, that rightly so parents are extremely stressed and worried that and sometimes parents weren't even aware that kids were having these very serious issues. The most important thing is perspective and then taking action, right. So kids, they have wide ranges of emotions, it's hard for us being in our mid 50s. Now, right thinking about what it was like to be a 1011 12 year old kid, but there's also just a lot of different stresses that were not around the social media wasn't around social media is enormous. And, you know, the computer, the isolation, the impact of COVID that we're still seeing, you know, and the sort of restructuring of schools and just sort of a lack of structure in a lot of kids lives, that kids really, and this idea of like self harm, and suicidality, unfortunately, does have a suit, have a social media contagion component to it. So you have social media influencers, who will talk about suicide, and who will even talk about self harm, and very dangerous, there's just a lot a lot information that these kids, and as a young, you know, when I think about you and I growing up that used to be like, where do we get our crazy information? Was it like graffiti in the bathroom?
Nancy Barrow:
I think it was like the neighborhood kids, right? Like, you're playing freeze tag. And then you know, I mean, I don't know, I mean, we didn't we didn't have computers until I was in high school, you know?
Dr. K:
Yeah I mean, so like, you know, our worlds were so small, right? You know, the amount of information that we were exposed to, was very, very, very limited. And now it's sort of like, Holy God, we they have information everywhere. And if you want to look up ways to kill yourself, or, like, you know, sometimes my son will show me these videos that he finds on like Tic Toc and stuff. And it's just like, it blows my mind about what what is actually out there.
Nancy Barrow:
I know, it can be good social media, but it's it's so detrimental. I think, I think it's such a big social problem. You know, kids compare themselves to like these people who look like they have these big lives, but maybe in actuality they don't. But it makes kids feel " less than".
Dr. K:
And it also gives them ideas. Like if you're depressed, that doesn't mean that you need to have suicidal thoughts, or you need to be self harming, that could just mean that you're depressed, and you need a couple changes in your life. And mental health is now like really part of the culture, which is awesome. I'm glad people are talking about it. But the other piece of it is there's just so much misinformation and there's also a lot of lack of information about what to actually do if you really do have a mental health problem and how to take care of it.
Nancy Barrow:
Let's go back for a minute and give me some background about you and how and why you created Hopewell Health Solutions, how did that all come about?
Dr. K:
You know, I always want I want to be in private practice, I always wanted to have my own business. So I had started out working in schools and hospitals and working for other people for a number of years. And then I decided to go into practice for myself.
Nancy Barrow:
Interesting, and I know that you treat kids who are on the spectrum. Do they have different issues that they face or different therapies that you would use for them? Or is it pretty much the same for kids across the board?
Dr. K:
So it's a small group setting, which a lot of people are nervous about putting kids that either have social anxiety or kids that have autism into group settings. And I actually say that, that is the absolute best thing to do. Because we are able to support them really supremely within that setting, we have very high staff ratios, we can make different accommodations within the groups, we can pull kids out, we can sort of, you know, help the sick, keep them a little bit more outside of the group, and then slowly bring them in, and then help them sort of introduce how to talk to peers, and how to relate to peers, and how to deal with some sensory issues. So we're really able to help these kids almost like you know, mild exposure therapy and, and get them to the point that they're able to function in groups and in schools and with their peers, we've been extremely successful, every single kid that we've had in our IOP program who had school refusal issues, or had not been to school or going to school, we've been able to get them back into school 100% of the time, that's amazing, because our program gives them that exposure that they need, and that kind of confidence, again, to be able to interact with their peers, and, and not be afraid of those situations.
Nancy Barrow:
Do most kids have coexisting social disorders, like anxiety and depression? And maybe they're on the spectrum are there, do they have coexisting behaviors?
Dr. K:
So yeah, I mean, everybody's different, I would say, the primary focus of the kids, most of the kids that we see have either a depression and or anxiety, diagnosis, they don't have to be, it's a total misnomer. They don't have to be suicidal, you don't have to be self harming, you don't have to have, you know, really super significant issues. To be in IOP. It's, we do not take any kids that are also completely unique. In Connecticut, we are the only IOP for teens that does not take kids that have substance abuse disorders or eating disorders. So our focus is strictly mental health. And all of the kids in there strictly mental health focus, which is very unique.
Nancy Barrow:
You know, about Connecticut Paid Leave, and I know that you do talk to your parents and caregivers of the kids. How do you think Connecticut Paid Leave helps your families that you treat at home?
Dr. K:
So I always offer it, and we've had several families need it and take advantage of it. And because it is it's a lot of therapy, it's a lot of driving. I mean, the kids have to be there at five o'clock. Different people have different work schedules. So and it's, you know, and there is a parental component involved. And so we've had several parents need that. And we're happy to fill out any kind of paperwork, because it is considered an intensive program. And it is, again, very important, it's time limited. So, you know, taking a short break, or, you know, reduced hours from work is something that people absolutely need to do to get their kids help. And then they're able to go back to work again. And that's the beauty of paid leave, is that your job is secured, you know, and you can go back to your job and it's it's there for you. But every once in a while everyone needs you know, most people will will probably need a timeout every once in a while either to take care of themselves or to take care of someone else.
Nancy Barrow:
Yeah. And it's really important driving the kids to their therapy. I mean, that they have that flexibility and they can leave work and not have to worry about income. Any final thoughts about April being Autism Acceptance Month and what that means?
Dr. K:
Well, I just love that it's acceptance. I mean, it's sort of sad that we need to have an acceptance month because I think we should all be accepting of Everybody at this point, but what I would say is, is that, I think just generally, overall, as a society, we're becoming much more aware of what's called neuro diverse people, right? People who think differently people's whose brains are different people who have, you know, a difference in in their ability to understand things. And of course, autism is in there. And I think we're finally recognizing the power and talent that is within this group of people, and how we can try to use and weave them in and maybe we everybody can learn from each other. Right? You know, like, I think the biggest thing in life I always tell people is to learn about yourself, know yourself, and then build a life that that works for you around that and it's going to be different for everybody. So if, if your child it or you are having problems, it is really important to pay attention to that end to get some intensive help right away, rather than waiting for something more serious to happen.
Nancy Barrow:
Dr. K founder and CEO of Hopewell Health Solutions, thank you so much for your expertise on The Paid Leave Podcast. It was really nice getting to speak with you.
Dr. K:
Thank you, I appreciate it very much.
Nancy Barrow:
And please let us know if we can help out in any way with webinars. Connecticut Paid Leave, we can give you more digital or hard copies of any of our infographics. We just love to help you and your patients and your families any way we can.
Dr. K:
Awesome. Thank you so much.
Nancy Barrow:
For more information about Hopewell Health Solutions, go to the website at Hopewell Health Solutions.com. Call 860-946-0447. And again, thanks to my friend Alanna for sharing her personal story with us. For more information or to apply for benefits. Go to CTPaidleave.org. This has been another edition of The Paid Leave Podcast. Please like and subscribe so you'll be notified about new podcasts that become available. Connecticut Paid Leave is a public act with a personal purpose. I'm Nancy Barrow and thanks for listening!
