Episode 35: Hustle & Heritage

Join Kristelle Siarza Moon and Jace Downey for an insightful journey with Mike Utaegbulam, founder of Black Digital, as we delve into the nexus of digital marketing and diversity. Discover how representation fuels aspirations and learn how injecting empathy into strategies can drive success. From the origins of Black Digital as a side hustle to its evolution into a powerhouse agency, Mike's candid insights offer valuable lessons for us all. 

Explore the key role of leadership in team growth and the challenges faced by minority-owned businesses in today's landscape. We celebrate cultural diversity while diving into both professional and personal experiences, including Mike's unexpected journey into bodybuilding!

Tune in for an engaging discussion that's not just about business but also about embracing inclusivity in every aspect of life.

Mike Utaegbulam

Founder & Creative Director, Black Digital

Mike Utaegbulam founded Black Digital in 2018 to address the widespread need for mission-based organizations to craft tailored digital marketing that optimally inspires their key audiences to act. He has consulted on digital marketing strategies and solutions for some of the reputed organizations in the country. His wealth of insights from 16 years of leading nonprofit and higher-education institutions have made Black Digital a thriving, change-making organization.
Learn more: https://blackdigitalgroup.com
@BlackDigitalGroup

A Siarza Production
Hosted by Kristelle Siarza Moon & Jace Downey
Executive Producer: Kristelle Siarza Moon
Producer: Jace Downey
Video/Editing: Justin Otsuka

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www.misskristelle.com
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Transcript

Kristelle: 0:00

We had a really, really fantastic interview just a couple of minutes ago. Yeah, we are, as an agency, a part of the Change Agencies, a group of multicultural and LGBTQ-owned businesses, agencies, public relations agencies, public affairs agencies, latinx agencies, black agencies, asian agencies and it was a really, really big honor to meet and interview the owner of Black.

Jace: 0:30

Digital. I don't normally get nervous when I'm meeting people, because I'm always like, oh, we're just going to hang out, they're cool, I'm cool, it's going to be cool. After doing research on Mike and Black Digital, I found myself, like before the pre-interview, being nervous and thinking like I'm so glad that we aren't meeting in person, because if he shook my hand he would find that it was like sweaty, because I was nervous to meet him, because he's so awesome yeah.

Kristelle: 0:53

He's really cool.

Jace: 0:54

He's really cool and then just like super chill.

Kristelle: 0:57

So Mike Uteblem founded Black Digital, yeah, and he became a part of the Change Agency's cohort last summer. One of the things that I find that I it didn't dawn on me until the interview is that we all stories of success and stuff. We always talk about why. What's a person's why? What makes them successful? What's the last thing that they want to do before the their days on earth have ended?

Kristelle: 1:25

Mike's purpose in life is providing purpose and impact to others. He said it in a more eloquent way, but I think that was one of the things that we forget as marketers, of why we do what we do. You included myself included, danielle, like anybody on this team, like we're so used to the grind, but it was really nice to talk to him in a way where, yes, he's a black owned business, but we talked to him about, like, the meaning of why he is an agency owner and the why of his success. I thought that was so cool. What were some of the things that you found really interesting about that our listeners can hear in just a couple minutes?

Jace: 2:07

I think he's been really intentional with how he, as a business owner, was going to make impact in the community and how he's going to use business in order to create change. And, though it might seem small, it's like, oh, it's just a business, but it's not, because it actually changes what appears to be possible for others and I don't mean like, oh, that just appears to be possible, I mean what is visibly possible to others. There's something about those of us seeing someone do something that we've not seen been done before by somebody who looks like us or someone who comes from our neighborhood or our background, and things like that, and the ongoing impact of that is incalculable.

Kristelle: 2:46

Yeah, and what I also took away from this is when we talk about, you know, delivering positive social change in the community through marketing digital work. I think one of the things that was really great about talking to him that I'm excited for all of us to listen to here in a minute, you know, some of the things that he mentions is that, yes, he's a digital marketing agency out of DC and they deliver practical solutions, but the success of his agency in since 2020, it is metaphoric success and one of the things I didn't get to tell him is that right now. You know he talks about one big goal. I won't spoil it here in a minute, but the fact that he was able to reach that goal in such a short amount of time exponential success doesn't come very easily, and I appreciate what lessons he shares with other folks on the show. Anything else that you think that might be helpful for the listener in terms of enjoying this really great podcast interview.

Jace: 3:42

We didn't touch on it a ton. But something that I really love about his aim, and Black Digital as well, is that they really went to create a space and a specific avenue for nonprofits to have really personalized marketing efforts that were gonna utilize their limited resources in respectful ways. They're really big on empathy and deep listening and making sure that they really understand the client, the nonprofit, their mission, their vision and then bringing that into their marketing PR efforts. And when we're talking about small businesses or nonprofits, those resources really are limited and you don't have a lot of room for trial and error the way a big company does, and he has established a successful agency with that openheartedness in mind.

Kristelle: 4:33

Absolutely. We're very excited to introduce Mike Utablam from Black Digital. Well, first off, thank you so much for being on the show. Stories, success and Stuff. You're actually, ironically enough, the first Change Agencies member that's going to be on the show, which that's our common bond, right, yep, right, most definitely, and so I know that you had a chance to meet Jace, and I'm really excited just to really dive into your story, your stories of success and everything that you've accomplished. I have nothing but such a high regard for you too. One of the reasons why I was so fascinated to have you on the show is that your agency, in the beginning of February, put out this incredible guide about thinking intentionally about Black History Month and, before we get into that particularly, what was the genesis of your company? It's one that I look up to because I say to myself I want to be him in the future.

Jace: 5:52

And I mean that right.

Kristelle: 5:53

I want the company to look like you. So how did you start Black Digital? What was the story behind it? What was the genesis of it?

Mike: 6:01

Well, thank you for that. It feeds my soul and it was an honor for you to reach out and have this platform to talk about the business, so thank you. But we started the business. So I started the business really as a side hustle and so, you know, I've been a designer by trade since college and I just noticed that, you know, especially in the nonprofit sector, these nonprofits do a lot of good work but do a terrible job of like marketing themselves, and so I saw a very quick market fit for an agency, but I never thought that it was ever going to be full time, because I actually wanted to work for another agency or go to the corporate realm. I actually wanted to work for another agency or go to the corporate realm and so, but it's just, you know, as you know, nonprofit marketing experience doesn't necessarily translate to big firms and so, started as a side hustle, registered LLC in 2018 after I moved to DC and I actually went full time because I was passed up for a promotion and was pretty upset, and my mentor at the time, who I've been working with for a while, he said well, hey, if you are as good as you say you are, then start your own business, go full time into the business, and I said say less, so I put my resignation in February 2020.

Mike: 7:26

They wanted me to stay on to help with the transition and I officially quit June 30th 2020. And I always say this story it became real when I woke up in a cold sweat on July 1st because my benefits were gone. And so it was real.

Jace: 7:45

The ships have been burned.

Mike: 7:47

Benefits run out, it's like you're on your own. But you know, by the grace of God, that job that I left became my first client and they're a client today, and that served as the seed money to fuel our success today. And so you know, it all works out. It all worked out in the end.

Kristelle: 8:04

Well, and Mike, like what I remember when we first met in Denver last year at the change agency's like meeting of the minds, if you will I heard this story and I said to myself, my God, he's got the same similar story as I like to the cold sweat, but my mind was on a on an ex-boyfriend's couch. I get it right, but I wanted to say so. That was then. How big is your organization now? How much revenue have you generated? How many clients do you have? How big is your team? Can you talk about that for a hot minute?

Mike: 8:39

Yeah, sure, sure. So we are a mixture of full-time, part-time and contractor, and so we're at seven full-time, three part-time, and then we have about 10 contractors that we work with on an as-needed basis, but we all consider them team members. So to me, the only difference is the legality behind it. But everyone is on the team because they're talented, is on the team because they're talented and um, we have about 10 clients. So we have small clients but like there's like web maintenance and stuff like that, but like 10 major clients that we work with on a day-to-day basis and um. Last year, you know, I had a goal from when I, when I started it um, to cross a million um, and we crossed a million last year in November and so yeah, thank you.

Mike: 9:28

Thank you, it's a really big goal. Didn't think it was possible until it became very clear that it was going to happen, and it was. It was while we were at the change agencies retreat last year where I started saw the revenue, I said, oh, we could do this. And sure enough, we hit it in November.

Mike: 9:48

Oh my God, Congratulations and the type of clients that you're working with are pretty incredible, correct? Yeah, it's, it's the good. The good news is is um we now have the luxury of saying no. You know, when you first start out, you kind of got I mean, for the most part, you have to take and everyone want to keep lights on. But now we work with a lot of um non-profits or even corporations that are in social equity and health equity, um, and so we're able to create positive change through the work that we do um on the digital marketing side, and so it's very rewarding work because it affects the communities that we live in. Um and also, you know, we kind of become, you know many thought leaders because of of we can speak from a lived experience.

Jace: 10:29

Yeah, I'm hearing different milestones that y'all have hit in the company. I remember in my first company that turning down the first project that wasn't a good fit and I didn't want to take that felt incredible and hitting the million dollar mark as some milestones and some goals. How did you define success for your company when you first started out and has that shifted now that you've been in business for many years? And how do you define success for yourself as well?

Mike: 10:56

Yeah, so you know, as we talked about yesterday, the success for the business as a CEO, it changes, right. You know, sometimes successes I made payroll, you know, like that's a way, that's a major way every time, every time check goes through for them, cause it's really important for them to get paid on time, even if I can't eat at the time I'm going to say that's one of my favorite parts as an employee.

Jace: 11:22

I'll just throw it out there at the getting paid part. Yeah, very important.

Kristelle: 11:29

It's also the favorite part of a client engagement is when we get paid, it's a win-win.

Mike: 11:38

But you know, success, you know, just from a managerial perspective, I want everyone, every team member that walks into this company, to leave as a better professional, even if they're only here for a few months, if they're here for several years, like we should have developed you in a way that makes you better for the next company. And that's a mission. And so, you know, we do a lot of professional development, a lot of stretch assignments, and it's just in a way that if we give you something to do, it's because we know that you can do it, even if you can't see it yourself. So just really developing the talent and making sure that they are good to go moving forward.

Mike: 12:15

And then, on a personal, personal, you know, basis, I struggle with that. I, you know, I really I really don't like being the face of the company, I'm very much a behind the scenes type of person, and so to me, success is, you know, my personal success is is seeing this company win. And then you know, really, you know making an impact in those lives of the, of the, the team members that we have.

Kristelle: 12:39

I think that's a really incredible story because you've got the entrepreneurial members that we have. I think that's a really incredible story because you've got the entrepreneurial mindset that we see here throughout the podcast. Right, stories, success and stuff. But one of the things that I what I admire about you, what I admire about your company and what I admire about entrepreneurs like you that have you know, like I said, we have similar starting points of where we began is the fact that, like, we do some really great work in our separate own agencies.

Kristelle: 13:06

I'm a big believer in uplifting competition or similar companies like ours. Like we're not. We're not competition, but we do the same things to a certain degree. Right, but how? But the conversation becomes you know, we have a common bond of being in people of color running agencies. Right, very much the synopsis of the change agencies. But has it been? And I will tell you what we experience at CRSA we stand out. We don't look like our white counterparts, but we do good work, we do better work, we do amazing work compared to our counterparts, whether they be black, hispanic, white, owned, but we somehow stand out in the crowd. So that's my question to you is that have you been told that you stand out, or has it been an advantage or a disadvantage? We all know that's the truth in society. Like has it been an advantage or a disadvantage to be a person of color running a digital agency?

Mike: 14:14

In the post-George Floyd murder era. It is an advantage in many regards, just mainly because and I'm also recognizing the anti-DEI attacks now which we're seeing or rollback essentially to what the world looked like before George Floyd. But yeah, to me it's a superpower. I think when you have a culture to you know, borrow knowledge and expertise from that gives you a superpower. Because, if you see the data, minorities are becoming the majority in America and every company has an initiative on how they can essentially monetize this ever-growing minority majority. And so I think we have that superpower because, again, lived experiences and it's something that I lead with I mean, you know me, I'm probably black, you know everything. Most of the things that I do are, you know, impacting the black community in some way, whether it's this company or what I volunteer on a personal basis, and so it's something I'm very proud of, and the name of the company is Black Digital and so we lead with that.

Mike: 15:29

But also there's a disadvantage here of sticking out, because sometimes people think that we only work with Black-owned companies or we only work with Black-owned organizations, think that we only work with black owned companies or we only work with black owned organizations, and it is true that some companies earmark a small percentage of their marketing budget to work with minority owned agencies and leave the bigger pot of money for white owned agencies, whether or not they realize that they're biased or not. But this is a thing I mean, whether or not they realize that they're biased or not, but this is, this is a thing I mean in the government marketing. You have the 8a program, which is five percent um, which is dedicated to disadvantaged businesses, which you know this is. We're talking about minority-owned agencies or companies. But what about the 95 percent? Why, why, why are we not able to touch the 95 percent um and why are we only relegated to 5%? That is the disadvantage of being minority-owned is, in a way, you're pigeonholing yourself to smaller budgets, smaller projects because of perception and bias.

Kristelle: 16:37

Government. Let me put a pin on the government piece because you opened up Pandora's box on that conversation, especially as a person that tried to apply for 8A myself. But I will tell you that what we've experienced too, there's always a value add right. Value add of experiences, value add of storytelling. Forget a commentary that somebody said once was oh my God, your team actually totally understood LGBTQ marketing because we have people that were gay, lesbian, trans, et cetera, or we've gone through those kinds of trainings. So what value add has being a person of color added to the client experience of Black Digital?

Mike: 17:23

Most of the campaigns that we work with are directly impacting the Black community, and so, for example, we have a client that is well, two clients that are looking to reduce or mitigate the racial wealth gap through HBCU students and HBCUs, or, historically, black colleges and universities, and several of our team members attended HBCUs, and so there are certain nuances on how you communicate and work with these organizations and even students that if you didn't attend HBCU, you wouldn't know. You literally wouldn't know that, and I didn't attend HBCU, but my team members like. So, for example, I went about a marketing campaign in the same way that I would talk to a predominantly white institution PWI and I was quickly corrected by my team members who were HBCU grads, saying that that's not how you would communicate or get in touch with students. This is how you would do so, and so having that expertise and lived experience just makes our work more impactful, and you can see it in the data and the results. I mean we produce good work because, again, we are using our lived experience.

Kristelle: 18:33

I'll say this too, like I appreciate you bringing that up, right, because I'll use a perfect example of content development. Like I love music, listening to content with very vibrant music, and like marching bands. Perfect example, right. You see, I know it sounds really ridiculous.

Jace: 18:50

No, I have a very not ironic love of marching bands, so I'm with you.

Kristelle: 18:54

But, like when you see the marching band history in HBCUs, you look at the dance history of the band majorettes in HBCU, like there's a lot of rich history there that you're right. Like I did not go, or I mean UNM is so is struggling to be marketed as a PWI when it's really not. It's like mostly Hispanic owned and operated and and, but at the same time it's operating like a PWI but it also attracts a community of color and you look at HBCUs as a model example of that. But they're doing it so differently that it's just it's so. It's disruptive to the norm. Like I appreciate you bringing that up. I think that's a. That's a, that's a really solid point.

Jace: 19:35

So, speaking of content development, one of the things that you've done is as an impact in the community is create space for Black creatives. Why was that important to you?

Mike: 19:45

Because I was the only, and if I had seven jobs before I went entrepreneur, in six of them I was the only Black employee. I never talk about Black creative, just Black employee. But you know I also grew up in Florida, which is heavily white, more so than people want to admit and so one as a sole creative is just hard. I mean, sometimes you just need someone else to bounce ideas off of just to make sure, like, you're working in the right direction, and so that was tough. So I always said I want to have several creatives working together in a collaborative way. And then, um, the, the, the final job that I had, um, uh, which is now our client, um, was the only company that I work for where it was 95% black I mean it was obviously the CEOs, black teams, black and um.

Mike: 20:47

Being able to truly come in and be yourself, you know, and not have to explain certain things is an impactful experience. I mean it showed me that I am not crazy, and you know that microaggression that I had allowed to happen to me actually wasn't okay, and so we would have a lot of conversations about, like you know, the George Floyd murder or Black Lives Matter protests or police shootings conversations that I literally could not have other jobs because it did not really affect their community in the way that it directly affects me. And so I wanted to duplicate that experience in the company that I owned. And we hire all races, but this company 90% Black. I mean we are inclusive of white, hispanic, lgbtq. I mean we're diverse in that aspect, but majority Black.

Mike: 21:44

And then you can feel it in the conversations that we have. So it's similar to my old job is we talk about the issues that affect us have. So it's similar to my old job is we talk about the issues that affect us, um, and you know, what I love to hear is is when we are interviewing talent, um, they always say, hey, even if I don't work with you all, I have never seen a group of this many black creatives in one space. So kudos to you all, like, and that to me, that that is success is hearing that, because it's like a reaffirmation that we're doing the right thing here and we're creating something really special.

Kristelle: 22:18

You are doing, what people are trying to achieve. And I do want to hit on a subject that it's a little off script, but a colleague of mine that I would love to have on the show. His name is Mike Silva. He's a black owned Black Lives Matter advocate in Albuquerque. He actually created Berkay I'm trying to blank, I'm blanking on the name, I know, but it was basically an advocacy group among brothers, right, black brothers about how you know, how do you fight racism.

Kristelle: 22:55

And one of the things he said to me once and I feel like I can say this to you because you might understand this, I understood it in the Asian community. He said, all of a sudden, during Black Lives Matter Crystal, I became the white whisperer. People would talk about some of their challenges in understanding the black community and, being a man that has seen some major microaggressions and injustices in his lifetime, he felt like he was comfortable enough to talk to the community about it. Get this question a lot. I'm curious your answer to this question, which is how do you hire a workforce that is diverse? It seems like a simple question, but I have a lot of allies. He gets a lot of allies I'm sure that you do too, that are saying, like how do you create a more diverse workforce? What's your answer to that, since you've already accomplished it?

Mike: 23:50

yeah, and I get that question quite often. Um and, and my joke is is you see somebody diverse, you hire them. It's, it's really that simple, right? You know? I think I think we, they make it, these companies make it more complex than it has to be because they're trying to please, you know there's. There's someone in the room saying why are we hiring this person? Is it because they're diverse? Is it because they're trying to please? You know there's someone in the room saying why are we hiring this person? Is it because they're diverse? Is it because they're Black? Is it because Latinx or because they're LGBTQ? It's someone saying no and they are pushing for yes and giving and having to come up with extra reasons why I say yes.

Mike: 24:26

And so I don't think there's not a lack of diverse talent.

Mike: 24:32

It is an overabundance of it. Especially in this remote world where people can work from anywhere, you have even more access to more diverse talent from around the world, and so it's really up to companies to hire diverse talent and then be okay with the blowback that may happen. So it's just to me there's no excuse. I mean the blowback that may happen. So it's just to me, there's no excuse. I mean the only excuses that you could have are um, maybe they don't have pnl experience, or maybe they don't have big agency experience, but you could train, you could, you could develop, and that that is your job as an employer is to develop your talent. And there's data that shows that, especially on the executive level, that diverse candidates are judged more harshly than a white candidate, and that diverse candidate must have more experience in certain areas that a white candidate does not have to have. And so I think it's just, we need to just change the narrative of if you really want to become a colorblind society, then your workforce should be representative of the American makeup.

Jace: 25:40

Yeah, 100%, one of the things that I see here, even with friends and things. A buddy of mine, his name is Miguel, but if he's applying for a job he puts Michael down Right and starts to make these little shifts here and there, even in a predominantly Hispanic community. There there's still that going on. Are you seeing other business owners in the community shining who they are as brightly and getting the benefits that you've talked about as brightly and getting the benefits that you've talked about? Or is some of that being hidden or or tucked away with the fear that that's still going to be a hindrance to them being brought on as an agency or as a different type of business?

Mike: 26:23

Yeah. So I see both. I've worked with other agencies and small, small businesses who have literally said I want to remove any semblance of me being black on the website. So you know, which is so disheartening to hear, right, because I know exactly what they're going with this. And I also had that self-doubt when I started because it's and in my mind I'm like I don't want someone to see that I'm black and it automatically give me a no without having a conversation. But my pushback is they're going to find out anyway. So you might as well lead with it.

Mike: 27:00

It gives very much trying to get a better house appraisal or higher house appraisal by removing pictures of your Black family appraisal, by removing pictures of your like black, you know family, because the data shows that if people can identify the race of the of the family that used to live there, there's a different appraisal value. But just just be. Just be unapologetically you, because you don't want to bring on someone that doesn't value your diverse background. The worst thing you do is bring on someone that is hostile to it and then now you let them into your company, who will then be hostile to your team Again. So I think, as a leader, you just have to protect your brand and your team by bringing on the right clients.

Jace: 27:46

I thinking back on that. I haven't thought of this in years, but when I worked in media production, people assumed, with the name Jace, that I was a man through email and different things. And I let them because it did bring on a different amount of authority, though it was always comical. I can think very specifically of being in a coffee shop to meet someone who was going to potentially bring on as a contractor and getting a text like hey, I'm here and I'm trying to figure out who he. And then I'm like, oh, I'm to your left. And he turns and just starts talking to the man sitting like off on the left and I'm laughing. I'm like, oh, this is fantastic, because he assumed I was a man with Jace, which is traditionally a male name, and I let him.

Jace: 28:26

Until then it was like but it was like surprise, and he did have a problem working for a woman and if I had just been up front and just authentically who I am from the get go, we wouldn't have had that problem. He'd have filtered himself right out by not coming on to the project. And so I thought at the time and I was a younger business owner at the time but that it was a benefit to me, but it absolutely wasn't, and bringing on clients and projects that were excited to have a woman lead resulted in way better relationships and in products and things like that. We're seeing a theme of authenticity and success.

Kristelle: 28:59

Yep, yep, yep, yeah, 100. And the last question I'm going to ask about your business, and then we'll jump into the fun personal stuff. Are you seeing any new trends specifically in the communities of color black-owned businesses? Are you seeing any new trends that are applicable from a marketing sense? After all, we are a marketing podcast, right. So I wanted to see what are some of the things that you're seeing, or any advice or trends that you think that would be applicable for communities that are, or for businesses that are, owned by Asians or Hispanics, latinx, like curious to see your thoughts on some new trends that might be successful for them.

Mike: 29:38

Yeah, so I'm actually giving a talk on this tomorrow to Black-owned businesses at a panel in DC. But digitization and AI it is a must-have at this point and there has been a reluctance to participate in these measures and participate in these opportunities that AI and digitization has brought, but it's a must. You don't want to be like the coal miners in West Virginia who refused to evolve and now they are in a dead industry and I'm sure you've seen it where you're at Albuquerque about like you know folks that are in an old industry that is being rapidly changed by data and AI, and so if you haven't taken a course or sitting on a seminar about chat, gpt or how you use marketing AI to help inform strategy, it's past time, as a business owner, to really get involved and to figure out how that's going to benefit your business and how you can use it to help your customers as well.

Jace: 30:46

Yeah, I appreciate that. I talk a lot about that here as well.

Kristelle: 30:50

Yeah, for sure. So okay, so we're going gonna get into the fun stuff really quick. Many people don't know that mike is actually a competitive body builder, which is? You crushed it in your last competition, okay, so how? How did you get into this? Why?

Jace: 31:04

did you get into this? Those are always my questions, because that's hard. Yes, it's a hard life, that with the nutrition and all of the things, how and why. And did you eat a cheeseburger after you won?

Mike: 31:14

I'm just kidding, oh listen, I always binge after every show. Um, my favorite go-to is um is actually chicken wings, and so I don't care what city I'm in, we're gonna find the chicken wing spot right after this. Yeah, but I actually, you know to be vulnerable. I got into it to get over a breakup.

Mike: 31:38

And so and this was like I started, like 2011, just like I just needed to get my mind off of it, and so I signed up for a gym membership, literally walked into the gym and said I need to see someone who looks like I want to look like, and his name is james um, and this is in tampa, florida, and, um, I told him what I was going through. He was like, hey, listen, we're just going to work out three, two, three times a week. No go, you know, and we'll go from there and, um, I'll send you the photo. But after a year, you know, I let my body transform. So I was actually skinny, um, before I started the gym, um, working with him, and a year later, I put on all this muscle and he was like, well, I used to bodybuild, I think you have a potential, you should do it. Um, and so, um, in 2011, I did a competition. Um, didn't really know much about it, but entered it, got fourth place, loved it, didn't, didn't visit it again until I moved to dc and I hired another trainer and he looked at me. He was like, hey, you're going to compete. He was like you have to do it. And so, eight weeks later, hopped into another competition and then got first place, um, and then, uh, second place overall, and then, ever since then, I got a bug and then I compete two, three times a year and so, um, it is a huge sacrifice and it's mainly because of the.

Mike: 33:06

It's not working out is the easiest part. Like I can live the way it was. It's the easiest. It is the diet and then the step away from the social life, because you just have to dedicate everything to it A meal plan, a bodybuilding prep. It can be anywhere from eight weeks to six months of like. I need to measure all my macros, I have to work out at 6 am, I have to come back and do cardio later that night, sometimes two days, and so I think every entrepreneur has that thing like, or this bodybuilding, or like extreme racing. It's always an extreme sport of some sort that every entrepreneur is in. That I've noticed, and bodybuilding just happens to be mine. Entrepreneurial is in, that I've noticed, and bodybuilding just happens to be mine.

Kristelle: 33:56

That's incredible. So what lessons have you learned from bodybuilding? That are lessons that you've used in your leadership or management of your company.

Mike: 34:00

Yes, there's always a win and failure. It's always, if you look closely, there's always a win or a lesson in failure, and so you know what they tell you. In bodybuilding, all the time is is that they give you the speech and it's the same and it's they say, you have won by showing up here and preparing over however many weeks and months by it sounds like you've heard.

Mike: 34:23

Yeah, you've heard this all the time or a winner, because the worst thing to do is to go into this show and and you're going to have hundreds of losers, I mean essentially.

Mike: 34:34

I mean you only have one winner per category and the worst thing to do is to to do all that work, to sacrifice all that time with family, personal uh, to have all that diet prep and all that over the weeks and then to say I've lost because I didn't win this medal, I didn't win this trophy, but really, like you look better than most Americans and that is a win. And also like you were able to push yourself and stay on an agenda for a certain amount of weeks for something that is really trivial if you think about it, and so there's a win in that is discipline. And so I think with as it relates to the businesses, you know, even if you know, on our lower ends, if we get fired from a client, hey, we were able to produce this work and this level of excellence that we can use for something else in the future, and so there's always, to me, there's always a win, it's always a lesson in a loss.

Jace: 35:32

I'm hearing a part of success being that it comes in the efforts, not the outcome. That if you dedicate yourself to the efforts and and can feel proud of what you've done there, the success is already there and then the outcome is what it's going to be. I like that.

Kristelle: 35:49

And potentially chicken wings. Come on Now we have to go. Whenever I see you next, we gotta go for chicken wings.

Mike: 35:56

If you tell me albuquerque has great chicken wings. I will catch a flight and we'll uh, it's subject to.

Kristelle: 36:02

Well, okay, so I I will tell. Actually, one of the best, uh, fried chickens or chicken places is actually black owned here a A good friend of ours, ken. I'll make sure when you come to Albuquerque you'll meet him for sure, so, okay. So last question. We're running out of time really quickly On your final day. I don't know if Jason told you we always have this classic question to each one of our guests, and so this is your time to answer our classic question.

Mike: 36:32

On your final day. How will you know that you lived a great life through the impact I had on other people? Um, that is, that is how I will know that I've made it where there's my you know employees, team members, you know guy, kids, family, that I know that I changed someone's life, one person's life. This is everything me.

Kristelle: 36:50

That is an incredible answer and, mike, thank you so much for being on the show. I'm so grateful, so grateful that you're here and thank you for taking the time with Jace. She got to know you. She's like he's awesome and I think it very much is. And thank you for what you do for this world. Thank you for what you do for this community, for your employees, et cetera. Thank you for being you. We really appreciate it.

Jace: 37:10

Truly. Thanks so much for being on with us today, Mike.

Mike: 37:13

Awesome. Thank you for the platform.

Kristelle: 37:15

What an incredible interview with Mike and conversation. It didn't really feel like an interview. It just felt like we were just catching up.

Jace: 37:22

I could have hung out all day oh yeah, and now I'm hungry. Right, I don't even eat chicken wings, but I don't know, justin, where's some good vegan fake chicken in town? I might need to get some later.

Kristelle: 37:33

It's called inclusivity right With the chicken wings. At any rate, thank you so much to Mike and the entire team of Black Digital for not only giving us some love on this podcast, but also for those of you that have been watching us from day one and also just joined us on Story Success and stuff. Don't forget to subscribe to us on your favorite podcast network or on YouTube and watch us on CRZcom. This is Jace, I'm Crystal, and thanks again for another fantastic episode of story success and stuff.