Charles Wu

Charles Wu is an Australian actor, writer and musician who has been building a strong career for himself across both the stage and screen. Perhaps best known for his role on screen as Ken Liu in ‘Doctor Doctor’ Charles has also regularly treaded the boards with some of Australia’s most respected theatre companies including Sydney Theatre Company, Melbourne Theatre Company, Belvoir St. Theatre, and most recently the State Theatre Company of South Australia. 

In this chat, he talks about the many contradictions in the life of an artist. He also shares the lessons he has learned throughout his journey, including the importance of being comfortable in your own skin, the need to find joy within your work and the benefits of surrounding yourself with a supportive community. 

If you want to check Charles’ band ‘Earthquake Magnificent’ which was mentioned in the episode, you can find them on:

Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/artist/49iwn18kZ7DFCxAVJBsLjo?si=73f5YKv1RoGSeUZw8gf9jA

Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/au/artist/earthquake-magnificent/1437397505

Bandcamp - https://earthquakemagnificent.bandcamp.com/album/dull-hill

Transcript

Emily McKnight [00:00:00]:

I would like to acknowledge that this podcast has been created on the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. I pay my respects to elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all First nations and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Listening today always was, always will be aboriginal land.

Charles Wu [00:00:18]:

They hired you because you are you.

Emily McKnight [00:00:21]:

That's right.

Charles Wu [00:00:22]:

Yeah. It sounds trite, but it's a, you are the best you you can be, and that is your most valuable resource, I think.

Emily McKnight [00:00:43]:

Hi, my name is Emily McKnight and this is an actor survives. Join me as I chat with some of Australia's most creative minds to discover how they navigate a career in the arts and to get their top tips on how to, to survive in the industry. Welcome, Charles Wu, to an actor survives.

Charles Wu [00:01:17]:

Hello, Emily. Thank you for having me.

Emily McKnight [00:01:19]:

Thank you for coming.

Charles Wu [00:01:20]:

It's a pleasure to be here.

Emily McKnight [00:01:21]:

First of all, how long have you been an actor and when did you first feel comfortable to call yourself an actor?

Charles Wu [00:01:27]:

I guess you, when you say actor, you mean professionally?

Emily McKnight [00:01:31]:

People interpret it how you will.

Charles Wu [00:01:33]:

Yeah. But I, I guess those two questions are linked, aren't they? When you first think of yourself as, say, I, I want to be an actor. I want to be a performer, if that's your, your calling in life or, you know, and. Yeah, when, when you go from saying that I would like to be one or saying that you are professionally one. Yeah. It's not always just a case of, well, now I have, I earned money from being an actor than I'm now I am currently an actor because I guess, you know, for most of us, it doesn't, it doesn't happen all the time that you are, you earn money from acting and you're not always earning money from acting throughout the years. So I guess, I don't know. I always did it in high school, but I only did one play in high school and I went to uni.

Charles Wu [00:02:19]:

I did some student theatre at uni in Perth and I came here for Nida and I've been here ever since. So I guess really, I would say post Nida when I graduated in 2014. So 2015 was really my first year of making somewhat of a living from acting. So I guess from that point on, I would have called myself an actor because that's what I went to school to study and. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I wanted to do with my life and that's how I wanted to earn my bread. So I guess from 2015 onwards, I'd say I was trying to be a.

Emily McKnight [00:02:53]:

Professional actor and you've definitely achieved professional actor status. It feels like every show ever you appear to be on. How has that been? I mean, has that kind of been a thing that you feel like you've fallen from thing to thing? Have there been long periods that we didn't notice?

Charles Wu [00:03:17]:

Yeah, I mean, like when I, you know, when I graduated, there weren't. I was barely any interest from, from agents and I didn't know where, if any, a place there was for me in the industry. And, you know, but even that period, in comparison to most people, it was about six months where I didn't work. I delivered food and I, you know, worked at a restaurant, all those things. But then I got a job downstairs at Belvoir from one of our old tutors, was doing a show and this.

Emily McKnight [00:03:47]:

Was before it was 25 a.

Charles Wu [00:03:49]:

Yes, yes, yes. When they still had a downstairs season. Yes. I think it would have been one of the last years, I think, with the downstairs season. And I did a show there and that was my foot in the door, really, theatre wise. I met people and I was very gracious and I worked hard and there were projects that kept coming along that I was a suit for. And I. Yeah, things go from there, really.

Charles Wu [00:04:11]:

Yes. I would say myself, yes, there's been some momentum, definitely, of being in shows and, and the right projects have been there and I've been in the right place. I get to realize that as actors, I think one of the things, we're looking ahead, we're always going, okay, if I get that next job, I'll be okay. If I get that next job, I'll be okay. I'm not okay now, but after that big one comes along, I'll be alright. I don't have to worry. But obviously that worry never leaves. Even if you're in a job, even if you know you have a job coming up, it's just, it's the nature of this industry, it's the nature of our profession, it's the nature of this vocation that there's no job security.

Charles Wu [00:04:47]:

And if you are, just say if you're not necessarily creator like myself, you know, there is not that much agency. So you're kind of always at the behest of what projects come along and whose favor you happen to be in.

Emily McKnight [00:05:01]:

And even how much money you're gonna earn. It's such an interesting thing too, isn't it? Because it's not just what's my next job going to be, because I love doing it and I want to do more. It's like, will I earn money? Will I be able to pay my rent. And how much do you do take on projects just because you want to be doing it and you love it, but you might not get as much or whatever.

Charles Wu [00:05:25]:

Yes.

Emily McKnight [00:05:26]:

It's such a complex beast in that way.

Charles Wu [00:05:29]:

Yes. Yeah. It's always a challenge between what feeds your soul and what actually feeds you.

Emily McKnight [00:05:34]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:05:36]:

And, yeah, I. But we do it because we are happy to make that choice.

Emily McKnight [00:05:42]:

Absolutely.

Charles Wu [00:05:43]:

A lot of the times. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:05:45]:

I've been thinking about it a bit recently because I've been in a bit of a slow period in terms of my own professional work, in terms of what's coming up. But as of today, I've now jumped in last minute as an understudy twice this year, and both of those things were, like, really short notice.

Charles Wu [00:06:09]:

Yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:06:09]:

And so I'm kind of reveling in the, wow, you never know what's gonna happen. You never know what's gonna happen. And also, like, if you jump into something that last minute, like, it only just occurred to me this morning, like, oh, I'll get paid. Like, it was such an exciting experience, but, like, oh, cool. I'll also get money that isn't in my budget or planned or anything like that. But it's such a relief because I've been going, okay, well, I need to scrounge to get money in other ways because I'm not getting the acting work that I was hoping to be getting kind of up and down.

Charles Wu [00:06:46]:

Yes, totally. That's the pros and cons of intermittent work is that sometimes you have a boon week or a month, you know, you just get better at going, okay, this is a good month.

Emily McKnight [00:06:59]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:06:59]:

Next month, who knows?

Emily McKnight [00:07:00]:

But that's it.

Charles Wu [00:07:01]:

Let's, uh. Yeah, let's enjoy. But also save a little bit this month. Yeah, who knows?

Emily McKnight [00:07:06]:

And I like what you said about we do it because we, you know, we do love it, and, you know, I love it. And so it's like, well, those worries. Yes. Are there, but it's worth it.

Charles Wu [00:07:17]:

Yes. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:07:18]:

At the moment, maybe one day it.

Charles Wu [00:07:19]:

Won'T be, you know, absolutely. It might not be worth it for everybody, for the. All of their lives, but I think, you know, we all entered this industry because at some point, we were very little, or even as recently as last week or whatever, we said, I would like to make things in life, and I love performing, and I want to tell stories. And the sacrifices that come with making that life choice, I can live with.

Emily McKnight [00:07:43]:

Yeah, totally. And so when you talk about making things and being creative, do you have other outlets of doing that or hopes of doing more of that, or are you kind of solely focused on the acting side of things?

Charles Wu [00:08:00]:

Well, the last, last couple of years, I think I've been lucky enough to keep working, but a lot of my life I've been making music. I have a band with other actors.

Emily McKnight [00:08:11]:

Oh, wow.

Charles Wu [00:08:11]:

I mean, obviously, for most of my life, it's been a hobby that I spend a lot of time on.

Emily McKnight [00:08:16]:

What's the band called?

Charles Wu [00:08:17]:

So we can, we're called Earthquake. Magnificent. You find us on all the streaming things.

Emily McKnight [00:08:22]:

Absolutely. After this.

Charles Wu [00:08:24]:

Go for it.

Emily McKnight [00:08:25]:

I'll link it in the thing, too.

Charles Wu [00:08:26]:

Go for it. It's myself, Shiv Palaka, who's also amazing actor, and Jacob Warner is also an actor in music.

Emily McKnight [00:08:33]:

Wow. Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:08:34]:

And so the three of us and, and Damon Struthoss as well, who you've brought on. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I guess, you know, we are, obviously, we don't make any money off of that, but it's another pursuit. I think it's another way to keep active in your creative life and to take some agency of your artistry. And I think those things do feed into my work as well. Yeah. I think it's, it helps you to be less precious as an actor, I think. Or as an artist.

Emily McKnight [00:09:02]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:09:03]:

To fail and to be at a block and to have to conjure things out of thin air, regardless of the quality of those things.

Emily McKnight [00:09:13]:

Do you mean that you experience that in your music making and then you apply that to acting?

Charles Wu [00:09:17]:

Well, yeah, well, I think if you, I think you, you come up against similar, um, not problems, but complications in both. Both works.

Emily McKnight [00:09:24]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:09:25]:

You think if you're feeling uninspired or. Yeah, if you go, I'm awful, I can't possibly do this, I'm awful, they hate me. Those, those awful, you know, those not helpful thoughts sometimes where you. Yeah. You can either, I guess, go inward and go, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm worthless. I'm never gonna get out of this. Or you can kind of go, it's, look, it's okay.

Emily McKnight [00:09:46]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:09:46]:

It's just, you know, it's called a play, so.

Emily McKnight [00:09:49]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. It is cool to play. Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:09:52]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:09:54]:

Yeah, you're right. So is that how you kind of combat that sort of imposter syndrome or at least bad self talk?

Charles Wu [00:10:02]:

Yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:10:03]:

Just try and reframe it as helpful and.

Charles Wu [00:10:05]:

Yeah, I think so. And I think if you make things, if you write things that come from you, I think you have a very, you have a good sense of what makes you unique as an artist, and you try to find your own voice, because I think that's part of the act of making and writing things. And so I think when you work as an actor, you realize that you are part of the same dialogue and that you are, even though you're playing characters, other people's words. But why you're there in the first place, because you have a unique point of view, and you have unique artistry and personality, and it's valuable, and that's what makes you special, not necessarily what you think, what the job is. Yeah, yeah. The job is you, actually, and how you work with other people and how you value your own artistry. And so I think those two things speak to each other, and it makes you less precious as an actor because you stop thinking about, how can I fit into this thing? It's, how am I bringing my full self into whatever this is and transforming whatever that, you know, role is or this line or the script is or this character? I think, yeah, it's shifted my way of thinking into. So it's less.

Charles Wu [00:11:27]:

You're less about meeting something, but more your full self to something.

Emily McKnight [00:11:31]:

Yeah, I think that's great. That's definitely a thing I'm learning. Even yesterday, when I did this insane understudying, I had ten minutes notice. So I had. There was ten minutes where I was literally in a foyer about to watch a show, and then ten minutes later, I'm the one on stage presenting the show and obviously unforeseen circumstances. And it was funny, like, after the show, my brain immediately started going, how could I have done better? What could I do better? And I just had to go, whoa, Emily.

Charles Wu [00:12:03]:

Yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:12:04]:

There is no space for that. And what I love about that kind of thing is there's also no space in the lead up to really think, how am I going to do this? It's like, I am doing this. Here I am, I'm on stage, and I was thinking yesterday that it's such a great thing for me to apply going forward, of when I do get the joy of having some rehearsals, of that, of, like, okay, I can trust myself and I can bring myself to this. Yes, as you say. So that's exciting. Yeah. And not instantly go into that. Like, how can I? I mean, you do want to be thinking, how can I do it better? But not in a negative way, you know, how can I do it better? Because I'm bad.

Charles Wu [00:12:46]:

Yes. Yeah. How can I bring more of myself into this? And what makes me special? Because. Yeah, it's a. Yeah, it doesn't always apply, obviously. No, of course. But I think it's a good.

Emily McKnight [00:13:01]:

Sometimes you're terrible, but I think it's.

Charles Wu [00:13:04]:

A good starting place for any job to know that you are. Yeah. They hired you because. Because you are you.

Emily McKnight [00:13:13]:

That's right.

Charles Wu [00:13:14]:

Yeah. It sounds trite, but it's, it's, it's, um. You are the best. You are the best you, you can be. And then that is your most valuable resource, I think.

Emily McKnight [00:13:26]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:13:27]:

Not necessarily your, your skills or your talent or your personality, even, you know, whatever, you know, thing makes you you. That's. That's why you're there. And I think it helps for your mental health and for your artistry. I think to just always remember that. I think, yeah, you, you are valuable being in the room just as you are.

Emily McKnight [00:13:50]:

Yeah, that's, that's great, because I definitely also find myself trying to prove that I need to be sure. And so stepping out from that I've. Is something I've been trying to practice.

Charles Wu [00:14:00]:

Yes.

Emily McKnight [00:14:01]:

It's like, oh, I can actually just be me. Do you have a method of acting that you follow or fall back on?

Charles Wu [00:14:13]:

I don't think so. I. Nothing that I would even know to name and go, yes, these are the steps that I, that I do and take. But I think a lot of my training at Nida stayed with me. Definitely. Voice, body, how to interrogate a text, language, punctuation, those really technical things that anybody can learn, I definitely still take with me in my work, but, yeah, I wouldn't say subscribe to any, any, you know, school of thought. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:14:46]:

Do directors like, I wonder if directors have, like, a method. I haven't really thought about that before.

Charles Wu [00:14:54]:

I'm not sure. Yeah. But I'm sure they, they have their own idiosyncrasies of how to work with people, how to talk with people. I think maybe what they find important or how much time they spend at the table before you go on the floor and how beholden they are to punctuation and to language and to text and how much they leave in the actors corner, you know, to think about and. Yeah. How much room they give the actors.

Emily McKnight [00:15:20]:

And do you have a preference when it comes to that sort of stuff? Like you like to be given that sort of space, or are you just very happy to. Whatever happens, I'll follow.

Charles Wu [00:15:30]:

I'm okay with space. I prefer because I would like to. You know, I'm up there playing as well. I like to.

Emily McKnight [00:15:37]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:15:37]:

Yeah. You've hired me for a reason. Let's work for a little bit.

Emily McKnight [00:15:40]:

And it's that collaboration of we're all making something together, like.

Charles Wu [00:15:43]:

Yes, yes, totally. And let me give you some. Something. Let me offer you up something so we can work from. From that doe. But I think as an actor, I appreciate most of all clarity. Clarity of vision, clarity of thought. So if I, you know, because if we're coming in there, just throwing things at the wall, it's, you know, you hear us at play in four or five weeks, it sounds like a long time, but it's not, you know, and so is.

Charles Wu [00:16:07]:

You have to. Yeah, I think the best productions are when very clear and quick decisions are made every day. And obviously, those things can change. But, yeah, you have to trust your instincts as an actor and as a director to go, that was a good choice. Well, there's something there. Let's go there and see where that takes us. Yeah. As with most things, really, it's just legion of really great decisions that lead to a good piece of work.

Emily McKnight [00:16:40]:

It seems to me that much of your career has been theatre based, but also film and tv as well. Do you have, like, a preference of which kind you want to be doing?

Charles Wu [00:16:53]:

Mostly, yeah. I love theatre. I love. I love going to work at a theatre. I love working with people in theatre. I love. I love the feel of a nighttime, even though there's dread a part of it as well, but that's the tension and release of going to show and then finishing it.

Emily McKnight [00:17:15]:

Do you mean the dread of what happens next or just the nerves?

Charles Wu [00:17:19]:

Yeah, of just doing the actual thing. It's still there every night, which. It's great because it should be, because every night is a new audience and you're out there and you have a responsibility to tell the story afresh and. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:17:34]:

And it is amazing how we put ourselves in that kind of really frightening thing. I've definitely said this before on the podcast, but I often get this feeling of, like, I wonder if I can do it today. And then I get really happy at the end. I'm like, yay, I did it.

Charles Wu [00:17:50]:

Because obviously, the question is, it doesn't matter. You are still doing it anyway.

Emily McKnight [00:17:53]:

Yeah, that's it. I mean, it's going to happen.

Charles Wu [00:17:55]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:17:56]:

I remember I said to a friend of mine who was actually doing a similar understudy thing last minute, and we were chatting beforehand, and he was kind of freaking out, understandably. I don't actually remember saying this, a piece of advice, but he has parroted it back to me before that it's going to happen anyway. Time is ticking. It's going to happen. The play will start, and then you will walk onto the stage, find yourself out there. You can't. That's a thing right now that you can't really control. I mean, obviously, if anything emergency happened, you can, but, like, it's going to happen.

Emily McKnight [00:18:31]:

So, like, let's get on the ride kind of thing.

Charles Wu [00:18:34]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:18:35]:

I wonder if that's why I don't like roller coasters. Cause it feels like as an actor in the theatre, I'm like, I get enough of the adrenaline and the.

Charles Wu [00:18:43]:

Yeah, yeah. But then at the end, you know, at the end of the day, you're still. It feels so insurmountable. But when you get on stage, you go, I'm just. I'm just in a room. I'm really. I'm just in a room talking.

Emily McKnight [00:18:54]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:18:55]:

You know, that's really the full extent of actually what you are building yourself up to do. And we can do those things.

Emily McKnight [00:19:04]:

We can.

Charles Wu [00:19:04]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:19:05]:

We're in a room talking now.

Charles Wu [00:19:06]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:19:06]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:19:08]:

That's really all you're doing. And listening. Talking and listening.

Emily McKnight [00:19:13]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:19:13]:

And. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:19:15]:

And I guess, like, it's interesting, like, we're kind of circling around that pressure to be good.

Charles Wu [00:19:20]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:19:21]:

And I guess one of the things with that is that what even is good.

Charles Wu [00:19:25]:

Sure.

Emily McKnight [00:19:25]:

Because every person that is watching you in that room will have a different perception of their own. They're bringing their selves to the room and to their own experience of whatever's happening in the play.

Charles Wu [00:19:37]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:19:39]:

And at the end of the day, some people will think you're the best actor ever. And some people won't.

Charles Wu [00:19:43]:

Won't even remember your name.

Emily McKnight [00:19:44]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:19:44]:

And that's what, like, that's. That's endless if you. If you know.

Emily McKnight [00:19:47]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:19:48]:

Those thoughts. Yeah. It's.

Emily McKnight [00:19:49]:

Do you read reviews?

Charles Wu [00:19:50]:

Torture? Yes. Yes, of course. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be torturous because you, you know, and you. And it's. And it's ugly process. You're just like.

Charles Wu [00:19:58]:

But it's. It's part of it. Because you. You're curious, right?

Emily McKnight [00:20:02]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:20:02]:

Yeah. Because you don't know. You also don't. You don't know if you're doing the job that you think you are doing or if you're giving. If you're giving what the production needs, but then you realize, wait a minute, these people didn't make the show.

Emily McKnight [00:20:19]:

Yes. They weren't in the rehearsal room.

Charles Wu [00:20:20]:

Yes. And we're not making it for them. And they are not the artists or the creators or even the audience, really. And so, yeah, I think. I think they're very valuable. Part of culture, of art criticism, definitely. But I think part of our jobs is to. Not to say that, you know, I work with people who are, or that we all necessarily are, but to be beholden to art criticism.

Charles Wu [00:20:45]:

We're making work. We're making work for people to see and for, you know, that's our audience, and we're making it for each other as well.

Emily McKnight [00:20:52]:

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Charles Wu [00:20:54]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:20:54]:

Yes. And big shout out to those theatre companies that actually make it more accessible to. For artists to come and watch.

Charles Wu [00:21:01]:

Yes.

Emily McKnight [00:21:01]:

Because I love that when you can actually afford to go and see.

Charles Wu [00:21:04]:

Absolutely. And more to be done and, yeah, it's for, yeah. For so many people, it's unaffordable or you feel that maybe it's a space that you might not belong in or that it's too highbrow or whatever, or, you know, and they make work that doesn't necessarily speak to you, but I think every passing year, every season, you know, you see something. Oh, my God, I desperately need to see that, or I haven't heard from that perspective before. I haven't heard that voice. I haven't seen these faces on stage before. It seems. It's incredible, you know, and more work to be done always.

Charles Wu [00:21:42]:

But, yeah, it's exciting to be part of that wave. You know, obviously, this is, there's nothing new. It's been going on, and it will continue to go on.

Emily McKnight [00:21:50]:

Yes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I think that is a thing, and I think it is amazing to be part of it and to watch it happening and to go, oh, great. It is becoming more accessible and more telling more stories and actually reflecting the world that we actually live in.

Charles Wu [00:22:10]:

Yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:22:11]:

Important.

Charles Wu [00:22:12]:

Absolutely. And, yeah, the more that can be done to make a night of the theatre more affordable and more attractive, to better, I think the better for the survival of the art form.

Emily McKnight [00:22:25]:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Charles Wu [00:22:26]:

Yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:22:28]:

So you've kind of been going from job to job of late. Do you kind of have a practice of, like, daily warming up and preparing and stuff, regardless of if you're in a job or does it change depending on what job you're doing or.

Charles Wu [00:22:49]:

I guess if you're doing a show, then you, you know, you kind of, you get there an hour early and you warm up and you make sure you're limber and everything. Or if you're on set, you do it before you get there or not or however you feel on the day. Yeah, yeah. But I guess if you're not working. I think there are, yeah, I. Absolutely. Because there are other ways to stay limber that aren't necessarily physical. I think you have to keep your mind active.

Charles Wu [00:23:17]:

You have to keep it curious if you kind of know what's going on in the world and what people are watching, what people are reading, what people are listening to and. Yeah. Because every job you go into, you kind of bring your own influences and your own interests and your own curiosities, and those change. So I guess you always have to keep them alive and active and also just, but also, it's great to have downtime, too. As much as we, you know, we would love to be working every day of the year, most people don't do that.

Emily McKnight [00:23:57]:

And how do you, how are you currently managing that? Like, you were in the previous Belvoir show. You're in the current Belvoir show. You're in the next STC show. Like, how are you kind of managing the avoiding kind of burnout and exhaustion?

Charles Wu [00:24:11]:

And I think you have to always be kind on yourself and also realize that, yes, when I was, say, when you, when I was rehearsing a show in the daytime and doing show at night, like, that's their long days.

Emily McKnight [00:24:26]:

Wow.

Charles Wu [00:24:27]:

But not everybody in the in, you know, most people in the world work those long days and.

Emily McKnight [00:24:32]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:24:33]:

Yeah. And they, and they don't necessarily do what we do. It's not as, you know, it wouldn't be as fun as our jobs. We're basically there to, you know, it's hard work, definitely. Yes. But like I said before, it's a play, and it's performance. It's entertainment. I think you always just have to remember that we're very lucky doing what we do and, and to be paid for it.

Charles Wu [00:25:00]:

It's a, it's a, it's a privilege. It's a luxury. And hours may be long, your body may be tired, and your voice might be tired, whatever. But that's, that's part of it. That's also the joy of it as well. That's also the joy to be. To be, you know, to really be, to feel the effects of your job and to do it.

Emily McKnight [00:25:22]:

I always think about if I do start to find myself going into that thought path, I go like, it's actually my dream.

Charles Wu [00:25:30]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:25:30]:

Like, I'm actually living my dream. Like, yes, I'm tired and, yes, you know, all of those things. But, like, instead of, like, oh, I worked 14 hours. It's like, I worked 14 hours.

Charles Wu [00:25:41]:

What do you want to do.

Emily McKnight [00:25:42]:

Whoa. How did I get to that? Good job, Emily.

Charles Wu [00:25:45]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:25:45]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:25:46]:

And I think it's only because it's, you know, it doesn't happen all the time. And then we go, oh, that's unusual. That's, you know.

Emily McKnight [00:25:51]:

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I learned doing the Ensemble show last year is prioritizing what other things you need to do in your life. Like, I don't know if you. Like you said you have the band, but I don't know if you have. Do you have other, like, jobs or other things going on when you're in.

Charles Wu [00:26:09]:

I guess the hard part about if you. If you're doing shows at night and you're coming home late, if you. If you have a partner, so you kind of. You need to prioritize time with them as well. You know, that. That's something that I. I always try to do, and I.

Charles Wu [00:26:22]:

And it pains me if I can't spend too much time with my partner and, you know, if I'm doing a show late at night. Yeah. Because you.

Emily McKnight [00:26:30]:

And hard. When they work during the day, too.

Charles Wu [00:26:31]:

Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:26:33]:

Like, they get home and you've already gone, and then.

Charles Wu [00:26:35]:

Yeah, yeah. You have to. You're going to work. Yeah. But I guess what you're talking about is how do you take care of your body and your soul if, you know, if you're kind of working it to exhaustion every day? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if I figured it out, but I felt healthy this whole time.

Charles Wu [00:26:55]:

I felt alive and well. I think it's. Yeah, you just remind yourself it's what you want to be doing, and it won't kill you. Even if you were to do it all year, you'll probably be fine.

Emily McKnight [00:27:15]:

And I guess if you do get to the point where you are getting burnt out or you're not finding the joy in it.

Charles Wu [00:27:20]:

Yep.

Emily McKnight [00:27:20]:

Then that gives you a reason to actually maybe rethink.

Charles Wu [00:27:25]:

I think so, yes. Then time for pause.

Emily McKnight [00:27:27]:

Like, for me, when I was doing too much, I was trying to do the play and work seven other jobs at the same time, and it's like, you know what? Maybe if I was just doing the play.

Charles Wu [00:27:38]:

Absolutely.

Emily McKnight [00:27:39]:

You know.

Charles Wu [00:27:39]:

Yes.

Emily McKnight [00:27:39]:

That would be better.

Charles Wu [00:27:41]:

No, totally. Yeah. And, yeah. Like, you know, if you're. If you're lucky enough to only need to work as an actor to make your living, then extremely fortunate. But if you are, if you have to pull another work and if you have to, you know, work longer than 14 hours, a day or give your a brain to more than one thing at a time. That's. That's infinitely more difficult than, you know, just.

Charles Wu [00:28:05]:

Even just doing two plays at one time. It's okay. You're an actor. That's just, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:28:12]:

It's an interesting one because it is, like, I go, wow, yeah, it would be amazing to be, like, rehearsing a play during the day and then being in a show at night. Like, that does sound amazing. And it's exciting for me to have that response because I think I do tend to. I tend to fill my life up with other things, so, yeah, to be doing that much acting would be pretty phenomenal.

Charles Wu [00:28:40]:

Yeah. So it's, um.

Emily McKnight [00:28:41]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:28:42]:

Yes, you'll be tired, but it's a, you know, you just. You're so fulfilled and so enriched from being able to. To work from dusk till dawn. It's why we do it in the first week. Like you said, you sit down and think and be like, I'd love to do this. I would love to do this every day of the year. Really? Yeah, really?

Emily McKnight [00:29:03]:

Yeah, that's right.

Charles Wu [00:29:04]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:29:07]:

Are you at the point now particularly because you kind of have had a lot of work from a lot of the theatre companies? Are you sort of at the point where you'll just get calls asking you to be in stuff or are you still regularly auditioning?

Charles Wu [00:29:21]:

I. For film and tv, I definitely. I'm always, always auditioning and, you know, always getting knocked back. Whatever.

Emily McKnight [00:29:29]:

Yeah. Okay, good. So you still have the normal acting?

Charles Wu [00:29:32]:

Oh, my God, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, you're home setting up your blue screen. You're doing the whole thing and you're sending your stuff out into the ether, but that's part of the job. That's good. It's great. It keeps you.

Charles Wu [00:29:46]:

It keeps you so grounded. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:29:49]:

So is that kind of. Are you able to kind of find that attitude when you do get knocked back? Of like, oh, well, it's part of the job and.

Charles Wu [00:29:56]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:29:56]:

You know, keep moving forward.

Charles Wu [00:29:57]:

Next thing, I think. I think you. I think you have to. Yes, I, you know, I. Yeah. And that comes and goes. Obviously, if there's something that you really want, you don't get it. Like, obviously, you know, you're human.

Charles Wu [00:30:09]:

Of course you'd be disappointed because. And I think you have to live with it. You have to sit with it, definitely. But then you have to go, there'll be more. And I show them who I was. I think that's kind of the most important thing, who I was. And that's not what they're looking for. That's part of the, part of the job.

Charles Wu [00:30:27]:

But, yeah, it's obviously not every industry. You have to go in for a job interview every week or every two weeks or.

Emily McKnight [00:30:36]:

Quite unique in that way, isn't it?

Charles Wu [00:30:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Those disappointments when they build up can be. Sure. Would be, you know, can take their toll. Yeah. At this. Yeah. There's, there's no remedy for that. Well, I think there, I think there is. I think you have to. You, um. Yeah. Don't take it too personally. I think.

Emily McKnight [00:31:00]:

Yeah, that's, that's good advice. With, with all your stage experience, have you had many circumstances where like, you either kind of just go on automatic pilot or the reverse of that, like where things go wrong and you have to kind of handle, I don't know, something happening and.

Charles Wu [00:31:20]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:31:20]:

Because it is a live experience.

Charles Wu [00:31:22]:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. There's obviously all those little things. If you fluff a line or you, you walk into a piece of furniture or whatever, or, you know, or you. Yeah. Or you feel youre concentration slip.

Emily McKnight [00:31:41]:

Cause it is interesting when you're doing the same thing, you know, day after day. I have only had the experience a couple of times, but I used to really, when I'm in that world, I really try and challenge myself to not slip into kind of an automatic pilot and let my mind kind of not be in the moment. Um, but then, yeah, I'm sort of asking two questions at the same time. Sorry. But like, because the reverse of that is you're literally in a live environment.

Charles Wu [00:32:11]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:32:12]:

With other people in a live environment.

Charles Wu [00:32:13]:

So things can actually, things always changing. Every audience is different. Every, your, every night your, your colleagues are different, even though you. The task is to do the show that you've built and to do it that way every night because that's, you know, what you've rehearsed. That's what you've, that's, that's the, that's the task of the show. But things, things are different. You know, I, you know, I can't speak for. If you've done a show, say, 90 times what the, what that job is.

Charles Wu [00:32:40]:

Yeah. Or on, say, a commercial show or something like that, where the task is precision and that you have to, you know.

Emily McKnight [00:32:48]:

Land on a certain spot.

Charles Wu [00:32:49]:

Yes, yes. And there's not much room for permutations.

Emily McKnight [00:32:55]:

Track. They usually call it a track.

Charles Wu [00:32:57]:

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:32:58]:

I remember when I first heard that. I'm like, yeah, yeah.

Charles Wu [00:33:00]:

What's your track? You have to learn a track. And so you would know from. Yeah. If you. If you're understudying or filling in, you know, you're learning someone's track. Yeah. And all those little things of not just what you see on stage, it's just, it's, you know, it's okay. After this scene, I go here and I have to put this prop down here and I got to put that there.

Emily McKnight [00:33:17]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:33:18]:

And, you know, and you learn the little tidbits of. Okay, you have 5 seconds to make that change. So if you. If you make sure you put your shoe on this way and make sure this is already done up. All those little tiny little things. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:33:29]:

Yeah. That was the craziest in the play that I did. At the end of last year. I was in Christmas Carol at Ensemble Theatre and it really was, it felt like a whole play in itself. The backstage area.

Charles Wu [00:33:44]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:33:44]:

Because you, everyone would kind of run off and have a change or have a different prop to get or a different whatever. And it was just, it felt like the whole thing was like constantly moving emotion on and off stage.

Charles Wu [00:33:57]:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:33:59]:

And it was nice to think about that as a kind of it. That's part of the.

Charles Wu [00:34:03]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:34:05]:

Part of the journey.

Charles Wu [00:34:06]:

Yeah. And part of the, part of the, um. The joys and the frustrations as well. If something goes wrong backstage, it's. You get the same sense of. Yeah, something goes off, you know, wrong on stage.

Emily McKnight [00:34:18]:

That's it.

Charles Wu [00:34:19]:

And vice versa.

Emily McKnight [00:34:20]:

Lost a prop or you've. I don't know.

Charles Wu [00:34:22]:

Yeah, whatever. Yeah, yeah. These, these problems sound small, obviously, but, you know, when you're. When you're doing. When you're doing the job.

Emily McKnight [00:34:28]:

But in the moment live and you do only have that 5 seconds.

Charles Wu [00:34:33]:

Yeah. Your work is compromised that night.

Emily McKnight [00:34:35]:

Yes, that's right.

Charles Wu [00:34:36]:

In your mind. You know, that's it.

Emily McKnight [00:34:39]:

Do you have any ambition to work overseas?

Charles Wu [00:34:43]:

Um. Wow. It's very interesting that, you know, both writers and actors in the US are on strike, of course.

Emily McKnight [00:34:48]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:34:49]:

Yeah. There's no better time to make work in Australia than now.

Emily McKnight [00:34:53]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:34:54]:

For the near and foreseeable future. But I. I've always felt fortunate to work in this country anyway, to find work and be working here. And, and I don't take it for granted here as well. I don't take it as a given that I will continue to work either. And I don't necessarily see that struggle going away anywhere else in the world. If I was, you know, if I. You'd be starting anew, basically.

Charles Wu [00:35:33]:

But I. But I can absolutely understand people if they say, don't see a place here for whatever reason, or have always dreamed of making work in the UK and the US and love the stuff that they do over there. It's a dream. You should totally follow it. But I guess I'm. Maybe more because I didn't grow up here. I grew up in Singapore and we moved to Perth when I was eleven and so.

Emily McKnight [00:36:02]:

Right.

Charles Wu [00:36:02]:

Yeah. And, and I've. Now I've spent more of my life here than I have in Singapore now and I've spent more of my life in Sydney than I have in Perth. So. So I find, you know, I. Yeah, I feel like a Sydney signer, definitely, but I guess because I've, you know, I'm an immigrant, I, um. The grass isn't always greener, I think is kind of my thinking. And wherever you happen to be making work and on somewhat of a regular basis like I am, I feel very fortunate. And that's me right now.

Charles Wu [00:36:40]:

Definitely. But sure, I'd love to do a show on the Broadway. Yeah, absolutely. On the west end.

Emily McKnight [00:36:45]:

Hang on. If they call right now.

Charles Wu [00:36:46]:

Totally. I'd love to do a Sunday night HBO show. Sure, I'll be there.

Emily McKnight [00:36:50]:

Yeah. Yeah. For those producers listening, it's not saying no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charles Wu [00:36:59]:

But I think it's that what we talked about before, if you, if you're always looking to the next job, it's hard to take pleasure in what you're doing now. And I don't say that, that I'm all, I always take pleasure in what I'm doing now that I, you know, never have those thoughts. But I just have to keep reminding myself that anytime you're working and people are enjoying the work, it's a great thing. It's the dream. Like, I'm, I feel like I'm already kind of living the dream, you know? And my dream is to be able to do it every year.

Emily McKnight [00:37:27]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:37:28]:

That's, that's for me. Is that is the dream?

Emily McKnight [00:37:30]:

Yes, yes, absolutely. In some capacity. As long as you're doing it.

Charles Wu [00:37:34]:

Totally. Yeah. Yes.

Emily McKnight [00:37:36]:

Yeah. It's interesting, that thing of having a balance between the joy of living in it and enjoying it and being ambitious and thinking about the next thing.

Charles Wu [00:37:45]:

Yes.

Emily McKnight [00:37:45]:

I don't know yet how to have that. I find that when I'm in a job, I'm either in the job and loving it and not thinking about the next thing.

Charles Wu [00:37:53]:

Yep.

Emily McKnight [00:37:53]:

But then if I get to the next, if I get to the end of the job and I don't have a thing lined up. Then I'm like, of course. Oh, no. Why didn't I spend time trying to find the next thing while I was in that job?

Charles Wu [00:38:01]:

No, no, no.

Emily McKnight [00:38:02]:

But then vice versa, like you say, if you're in a job and you're just constantly thinking, how do I get the next job?

Charles Wu [00:38:07]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:38:08]:

Then you're not enjoying the one you're in, so.

Charles Wu [00:38:10]:

Yeah, but, but the reality of our situation is enjoying your job now doesn't necessarily mean that you will have a job after that. I like it doesn't, it doesn't. Those two things don't, you know, don't necessarily correlate like that all the time. And so it's the reality of our job, of our intermittent employment, that you can't actually ever really stop thinking about where the next paycheck is going to come from. The next job is going to come from. You know, that's the economic reality of our work. And. Yeah, it's.

Charles Wu [00:38:44]:

Yeah, it'd be naive of me to say that that's how you should always live your life, you know, and certainly not how I always live my life either.

Emily McKnight [00:38:50]:

You know, just, I'm just thinking about the balance, you know, how finding a way to love it and be in it. But still, I guess that's the useful thing of having an agent.

Charles Wu [00:39:02]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:39:02]:

They're hopefully that their main job is to find you jobs.

Charles Wu [00:39:06]:

Yes. They're thinking about that. Yeah, I. But that little window where, say, you're on stage, on your, on set, you can't, you can't literally think of anything else. No, that's just the, that's the goal of, you know, that's when you're just completely, fully present, you know. Yeah. That's where you really. You're doing the thing.

Charles Wu [00:39:22]:

You're actually doing the thing. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:39:25]:

How have you gone in agent land? Did you kind of get one straight out of NIDA and help you to get the Belvoir thing that you mentioned is your first kind of job or not?

Charles Wu [00:39:39]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:39:40]:

Have you had many? None. One I've had.

Charles Wu [00:39:43]:

I've had two my agents that I signed with straight out of school. I was with them for a long time. They were great. I signed with a new agency at the end of the start of last year, I think, and they've been wonderful.

Emily McKnight [00:40:00]:

Did you have a period of freelancing in between, or was it you just hopped from one to the next?

Charles Wu [00:40:06]:

Basically, yeah. But, you know, there's definitely periods of where you have an agent but you're not working as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that those. Those periods definitely exist.

Emily McKnight [00:40:18]:

And so I suppose in that sense, it feels like freelancing.

Charles Wu [00:40:20]:

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. You're still trying to, you know, look for stuff or you. You feel like you're. Yeah. At the mercy of whoever is making something and they feel like you might fit in. I wonder how you. I guess, yeah.

Charles Wu [00:40:37]:

Because you've. Even if you are a creator yourself, even if you make your own work, that probably never stops that thinking of, like, where's the next thing gonna come from? If it's not from somebody else, then where is it gonna come out of me, even, you know?

Emily McKnight [00:40:52]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I do children's performing, and I'm definitely thinking about that a lot. And actually, at the start of this year, I was like, oh, I've really got to try and, like, I have to try and contact places and all of that, and I was quite slow to get to it. And I even had conversations with my acting agent who's, you know, very on board with the kids stuff and also fellow, fellow children's performers who have, like, managers and stuff.

Charles Wu [00:41:22]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:41:23]:

And the main advice I got in that world is, actually, you do have to do it. You have to be the one that contacts people. You're going to have more success when it's coming from you. And you're doing emails and you just got to email and email and email.

Charles Wu [00:41:38]:

Yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:41:39]:

And I found that really interesting and then had to kind of go, okay, I need to remember that. That's actually part of my job if I want this to be seen. Yeah. And I suppose we as actors, have to think about that a bit, too. Like, even though, yes, you've got an agent, it's still your career.

Charles Wu [00:41:57]:

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's a really great point. Yeah. I always have to keep telling myself to be more proactive as well, you know, because sometimes you. You can. You tell yourself too often that it's just something will come along. Something will come along, you know, and it's their job to look for me, and it is, but, yeah, but also.

Emily McKnight [00:42:16]:

But also, you're building the relationships in the room and that kind of thing, you know, like, sometimes with that sort of networking, you can get work because you were in the room or even in a foyer or had some kind of conversation with someone.

Charles Wu [00:42:28]:

Yes.

Emily McKnight [00:42:29]:

And then they find themselves needing somebody that's like, you, and that might give you work, and your agent can't do that kind of stuff for you, you know? I mean, they can do their own networking, but they can't. They can't be you. You have to be you in those conversations.

Charles Wu [00:42:47]:

Yeah, totally. But I. Yeah, and I can understand, like, how, you know, when you say networking, it has the connotations, I guess, of standing around in foyers and, you know, shining your eyes and. Yeah, yes, yes. And I. That's. Sometimes that's part of it, I guess. But also it's.

Charles Wu [00:43:07]:

But it's also staying curious, you know? Yeah. And wanting to meet more people and know what people are doing, what people are making.

Emily McKnight [00:43:15]:

And it's quite. It can be quite fun because you can legitimately make really great relationships and friends.

Charles Wu [00:43:25]:

Friends. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Emily McKnight [00:43:26]:

And I've. I've had a few situations where, like, I feel like I've made friends with someone and then that person happens to get me work. Yeah, but that wasn't my intention of becoming friends. Like, we just had a really great, amazing conversation and then. Yeah, yeah, but it is. You're right, it does have. It does have connotations and it is something that we all have to deal with and think about and.

Charles Wu [00:43:48]:

Yeah, I don't know, they're all true. Like, yeah, our job is full of these contradictions.

Emily McKnight [00:43:52]:

Contradictions. Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:43:55]:

You can tell yourself that this is. No, this is not gross. This is really great. But that's. It's show business. Like, that's kind of part of the. Right. Like, it's.

Emily McKnight [00:44:02]:

But I also get surprised when people are nice.

Charles Wu [00:44:05]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:44:07]:

I don't know what this is, but I had a conversation with somebody who is a big-ish deal, or at least knows a lot of people herself, and I know that she, she does that, but, like, genuinely, we became good friends and I, you know, she. She bought tea for me at one of the rehearsals and you know, because she'd been in a tea shop and she remembered that I liked Earl Grey and she, like, bought some Earl Grey because she thought of me anyway, and we. We were getting along so well and I never kind of went, oh, I like, I really need to keep this friendship going and networking. I honestly just didn't think about it. Even though obviously I'm thinking, I know that she's.

Charles Wu [00:44:48]:

She can do that.

Emily McKnight [00:44:49]:

She can, yeah. But then I've been. But what it means is that I'm then surprised when she has done really nice things. Like, she's emailed people about me or like, I went to a show where they were, like, casting people and what not, and she was like, oh, oh, you need to meet this person. Oh, hang on, hang on. You need to come meet this person. I want them to know that you exist and.

Charles Wu [00:45:11]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:45:12]:

And then she's, like, giving me this beautiful introduction, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so nice.

Charles Wu [00:45:16]:

That's amazing.

Emily McKnight [00:45:17]:

And it isn't. I feel like I wasn't trying for that, even though I suppose I must have been. But it's. So that's where it gets complicated, because you're like, it is part of the job. But also, I would have been satisfied if we just sat and drank tea together. So it's interesting, but it makes me go, like, I want to be that person for other people. Like, if I'm ever in a situation where maybe I have more connections and I really care about someone or really think that someone's amazing, I'd love to elevate them.

Charles Wu [00:45:50]:

Yeah. You pay it forward.

Emily McKnight [00:45:52]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:45:52]:

I'm sure that person would have received generosity in her life as well.

Emily McKnight [00:45:56]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:45:56]:

In the same way.

Emily McKnight [00:45:57]:

Because at the end of the day, and that's what I love about the community, is that we can be a community and the more that we can think of it like that and that we're working together and not competing.

Charles Wu [00:46:08]:

Absolutely.

Emily McKnight [00:46:08]:

And lift each other up, I think, you know.

Charles Wu [00:46:11]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:46:11]:

Is a really good thing.

Charles Wu [00:46:13]:

Yes. Every, like, you are in a community of like minded but idiosyncratic and unique artists.

Emily McKnight [00:46:18]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:46:19]:

Not in competition with each other.

Emily McKnight [00:46:20]:

Mmm. totally.

Charles Wu [00:46:23]:

Yeah,

Emily McKnight [00:46:23]:

Charles Wu [00:46:24]:

You, obviously, you might. The industry, like, built like you are.

Emily McKnight [00:46:28]:

Yes. Like, in real life, you're going for the same, but.

Charles Wu [00:46:32]:

But, yeah. Yeah. It's such a. It's another contradiction where you go, I am a unique artist, and if it's not right for me, then it's not right for me. But also, you got to work hard. Those two things are true in tandem, and you have to make it work for yourself.

Emily McKnight [00:46:52]:

I like how we're going through all the contradictions. That's the theme of this episode, is the contradictions of being an artist.

Charles Wu [00:47:00]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:47:01]:

What has been the most challenging role of your career so far, for any reason?

Charles Wu [00:47:08]:

I had to play someone whose politics I don't agree with and whose way of dealing with people I don't agree with. And just for a selfish reason, it's. It's. I found it difficult and unsatisfying to inhabit that and to say, this is me, you know, because that's kind of your job, is to say, I am this person. Yeah. And the few times that I've had to do something like that, I think it's just for a selfish reason. It's, you know, you tell yourself, I'm not. You're not this person.

Charles Wu [00:47:40]:

You work hard to not be someone like that, and to put yourself in that and to inhabit that is, you know, can be difficult, can be unsatisfying, I think.

Emily McKnight [00:47:53]:

Did it kind of reinforce the things that you want to be as you?

Charles Wu [00:47:58]:

That's. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And also, maybe sometimes you go, hey, maybe I sometimes am a little bit like this person, or. Yeah, you notice times where you could be doing better.

Emily McKnight [00:48:08]:

Sometimes those things also make me grow in empathy for those people as well. Like, even if I don't agree with them or want to be like, yeah, yeah, totally. It also makes you go, okay, I've stepped in those shoes, so I at least understand how they might have reached that point. Even though I fundamentally disagree. I.

Charles Wu [00:48:25]:

Yes. And that's one of the beautiful things about acting.

Emily McKnight [00:48:28]:

I think.

Charles Wu [00:48:29]:

I think I agree. Yeah. It's. It's such a, um. Yeah, it's a great thing where you can. You can learn about things that you might not know and. Yeah. And see perspectives that you might not.

Emily McKnight [00:48:41]:

Allow yourself to see in that situation. Did you have a way to kind of de-role and, like, put that character that you didn't want to be down?

Charles Wu [00:48:52]:

Yeah, I think. I think so. I think I'm okay at doing that. I think, yeah. It's just when you're. When you're there, you're there.

Emily McKnight [00:49:00]:

Okay.

Charles Wu [00:49:01]:

But when you. When you leave, you can, you know.

Emily McKnight [00:49:03]:

Okay, so you don't have a method, necessarily. You're just good at letting it, putting it down.

Charles Wu [00:49:08]:

I mean, I would like to think that I'm good at doing it, but who knows? Things stick with you. But I. Yeah, it's another contradiction. It's part of the. You know, you're joyful to show up to work, but sometimes if it's. If it doesn't always necessarily feel that way, then there can also be relief in leaving the theatre as well.

Emily McKnight [00:49:30]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:49:31]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:49:31]:

Yeah. So, interesting.

Charles Wu [00:49:34]:

Yeah, it's still, you know. Cause it's fun, but it's still work, you know, I think. But I think there's a good. I think it's helpful to see it in that way.

Emily McKnight [00:49:42]:

Do you know what, though? I get a little bit of a joy when I say, when I am in a show and I get to say, I'm going to work now. I go like, yeah, I get to say that that's work. Totally on my way into work at the theatre. It's great still. Like, it just gives me dream. Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:50:01]:

So good.

Emily McKnight [00:50:02]:

Yeah. I was working one job.

Charles Wu [00:50:06]:

It's great, you know? Yeah. It's so good. It's, um. Yeah. We are. We are essential artists. What we do is essential work. Yes.

Emily McKnight [00:50:15]:

You know, even if not deemed it during pandemics.

Charles Wu [00:50:17]:

Absolutely, yes. Even if. Even if we all watch things and we all read things, we listen to things, even if we, you and I, are not the people that people watch on screens. We are part of the same vocation. We are part of the same group of people, and we speak to the same concerns of what art making is. And. Yeah, it's. Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:50:39]:

And if you're, if you're busing on the street, if you're. If you're performing a stadium, you're part of the same fraternity, you know, no group of people. Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:50:47]:

Yeah. Amazing. What does success mean to you?

Charles Wu [00:50:53]:

Oh, success is enjoying what you do and being able to do it and being able to support yourself and your lifestyle, your family. I think. Yeah. There always, because we live in this world, there always has to be some kind of economic reality to success. And I, you know, I don't think that's crass. I think it's. It's a reality. I think you, you know, but even success could just be you.

Charles Wu [00:51:29]:

You are able to do what you love and then you also do something else that, you know, sustains you. I think that's success, too. I think that's. That would be a really successful career if you could. If you could make that work, you know, being able to. Yeah, and, yeah, exactly. Those two things don't necessarily have to be combined, I think, is what I'm saying.

Charles Wu [00:51:51]:

For me, I would love for those two things to be combined.

Emily McKnight [00:51:56]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:51:56]:

For me, that is success.

Emily McKnight [00:51:58]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:51:58]:

But that's just me personally.

Emily McKnight [00:52:00]:

Amazing. All right, what are your top five survival tips for a career in the arts in Australia?

Charles Wu [00:52:06]:

My top five survival tips?

Emily McKnight [00:52:08]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:52:10]:

In no particular order, recognize your idiosyncrasy and uniqueness of yourself as an artist. Take joy in that, so that when you go into a room, when you do a job, you can be assured of the fact that you already have something to offer you as yourself. And. Which feeds into number two. Don't take it too personally.

Emily McKnight [00:52:38]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:52:40]:

You know? Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:52:42]:

If so, it's. It's actually so hard.

Charles Wu [00:52:45]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:52:46]:

But it's good to keep trying to pursue.

Charles Wu [00:52:49]:

Yes. Because even the act of trying to do it, it makes you feel better.

Emily McKnight [00:52:53]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:52:54]:

I think, you know, you can just. Oh, God, it could be endless. You're sitting at home, you go, why didn't I get that? I'll never get that. It's because I'm not this and I'm not that. I'm not X and Y. And that might be the case. It might not. But it doesn't mean that you are less than what they're looking for.

Charles Wu [00:53:10]:

You know, I think that's. Yeah, that might be. You are never less than what they're looking for. You might just be something else.

Emily McKnight [00:53:18]:

Yeah, that's great. Everyone go and write that down. Hang it on your wall.

Charles Wu [00:53:25]:

Yeah. And even if. Even if it's just something you tell yourself, it's important. These things. These things. Yeah. These things are important to. You have to respect yourself as an artist, I think, you know, and they.

Emily McKnight [00:53:37]:

Help with that longevity.

Charles Wu [00:53:39]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:53:39]:

So that you aren't getting worn down by it.

Charles Wu [00:53:42]:

Totally. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's. That's the ideal, obviously, you know. Yes. And. Yeah. And it's.

Charles Wu [00:53:50]:

What we do is very personal and it can be very difficult. And you, you know, part of what makes you an idiosyncratic actor or unique is you bring yourself into it. So it's obviously, it's hard to just always be able to say that I'm special. That's okay. It's fine. I'm still.

Emily McKnight [00:54:05]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charles Wu [00:54:08]:

But it's the act of trying to do it, I think I, you know, is what makes this job easier and more enjoyable. Yeah. And other tips. We've talked about this. Spend time within your community of artists, of like minded people, and, you know, just remember that you're not in competition and you're all doing the thing because you love it and you. Yeah. There's. There's so much joy to be taken out of, you know, being able to talk shop or commiserate or celebrate, you know.

Charles Wu [00:54:44]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:54:44]:

And with people that are like minded, that understand what the experience is. So if you are taking it personally, back to your previous tip.

Charles Wu [00:54:53]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:54:54]:

There can be somebody else that can help you to not.

Charles Wu [00:54:56]:

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Because they're going through the same thing.

Emily McKnight [00:54:58]:

Because they understand it in a different way. Like, of course, some. Of course you can get understanding from people that aren't, but when you can connect with your own community, I think it can.

Charles Wu [00:55:08]:

Yeah. Definitely.

Emily McKnight [00:55:10]:

Totally make a difference.

Charles Wu [00:55:11]:

Yeah. And it also speaks. Another tip, make sure you spend time with people who aren't a part of the industry.

Emily McKnight [00:55:16]:

Yeah.

Charles Wu [00:55:17]:

And get your perspective.

Emily McKnight [00:55:19]:

Spend time with people.

Charles Wu [00:55:20]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get your perspective straight and go, this is your worries that sometimes very small.

Emily McKnight [00:55:26]:

I really often think about that when it comes to, like, the feeling of, like, I know it's not life and death. But like, the extreme feeling that you can get behind something.

Charles Wu [00:55:38]:

Yes.

Emily McKnight [00:55:39]:

And then you have to just like. Or you tell someone else about it and they go, like what?

Charles Wu [00:55:44]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:55:45]:

What do you mean? Like, what does it mean if you get it or don't get it? Or what is it?

Charles Wu [00:55:50]:

Yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:55:50]:

And I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, in my world, this was, like the biggest thing in the universe. But actually, maybe it isn't. Yeah, maybe it is in my world. And. But it's also worth remembering that there are other things.

Charles Wu [00:56:05]:

There are other things. Absolutely, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:56:07]:

You know, it isn't life or death.

Charles Wu [00:56:09]:

No, absolutely. Yeah. And it can help if you say you're pining after a really big thing, you didn't get it. It can help with coming to terms with that, and it can also keep your head on straight if you do get that big thing and you're. And you're there.

Emily McKnight [00:56:21]:

Yes.

Charles Wu [00:56:27]:

And you go. No. I'm still here to work, man. Like, I'm. Yeah, yeah.

Emily McKnight [00:56:27]:

I've had that to. Like you say, like, wow, I got this amazing thing. And people go, oh, what? What does that mean? What do you do? And you go, oh, no. I'm like, doing this thing. And they're like.

Charles Wu [00:56:36]:

Where is this place?

Emily McKnight [00:56:40]:

What are the hours? And you get paid how much?

Charles Wu [00:56:42]:

No, no. But that's also reality. Yeah, absolutely.

Emily McKnight [00:56:46]:

Yeah. That's interesting.

Charles Wu [00:56:47]:

Yeah. This whole thing is about contradictions, hasn't it?

Emily McKnight [00:56:51]:

Yes, I know it's correct.

Charles Wu [00:56:52]:

Understand your self worth, but also be very quickly go, ah, it's all right.

Emily McKnight [00:56:57]:

Awesome. Well, well, thank you for exploring those contradictions with me in this conversation. It's been an absolute pleasure and sharing all your wisdom and everything and, yeah, congratulations on everything so far. And that's all. Thank you.

Charles Wu [00:57:13]:

See you around the traps.

Emily McKnight [00:57:54]:

See you around the traps. That's right. I hope you've enjoyed listening to this episode of 'An Actor Survives' with me. Emily McKnight. I would absolutely love it if you could tell your friends. Follow us on Instagram, sign up to my newsletter, and if it's within your means, I do have a page on buymeacoffee.com where you can support the podcast financially. Thanks so much for being part of this community.

Emily McKnight [00:57:47]:

This podcast is produced and edited by Nicola Denton. Kate Jirelle is our publicity manager, and the music is an excerpt fromSoar: A Marimba Concerto by Robert Oetomo.