071: [HEALTH] Holistic Cancer Prevention + the female hormone link with Dr. Nalini Chilkov

Hi, dear friends. This week, I have a very special episode about cancer prevention—with a female hormone twist. We're diving into holistic cancer prevention with one of the world's experts, Dr. Nalini Chilkov, who is a pioneer in Integrative Cancer Care, focusing on cancer prevention and immune enhancement.

According to the British Journal of Cancer, one in two people will develop cancer at some point in their lives. In the United States, 1 in 2 women and 1 in 3 men will get cancer in their lifetime.

1... in...2...people!

When we think about longevity, living longer AND healthier is the goal. What are the science-backed ways to optimize our health and outsmart cancer? How do female hormones play a role + what to do about that? + so much more

What we cover:

• Defining cancer: from a Traditional Western Medicine and Eastern Medicine POV
• Understanding cancer growth and development - and the impact our internal and external environment and choices have on that growth
• The link between sugar and cancer (it’s not what you think!)
• The link between diet and preventing cancer (it’s not what you think!)
• The power of herbal medicine
• Female cancer prevention: and how + why estrogen matters

About Dr. Nalini Chilkov:
Dr. Nalini Chilkov is a pioneer in Integrative Cancer Care, focusing on cancer prevention and immune enhancement. She founded the American Institute of Integrative Oncology Research & Education and developed the OutSmartCancer® System. Dr. Chilkov’s mission is to transform cancer care through her Institute and online courses, which train clinicians in her comprehensive, science-based, and natural cancer support methods.

She authored the bestselling book "32 Ways to Outsmart Cancer" and has over 35 years of clinical experience, integrating modern functional medicine with traditional Oriental and natural healing. Dr. Chilkov has lectured at UCLA and UC Irvine, conducted global seminars, and appeared as a cancer expert on NBC TV. Recognized as a top online influencer for breast cancer by WebMD and ShareCare.com, she offers international telemedicine consultations through her clinic in Santa Monica, California.

 

 To connect with Dr. Nalini Chilkov:
 
IG: drnalinichilkov
FB: DrNalini

www.integrativecanceranswers.com

Transcript

Kasia: 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Other Way, a lifestyle podcast exploring uncommon, unconventional or otherwise alternative approaches to life, business and health. I'm your host, kasia. I'm the founder of InFlow, a women's wellness brand that designs intentional products to help women reconnect to their unique cyclical rhythm and find a balance between being and doing. This podcast is an extension of my mission within Flow. Here we provide intentional interviews with inspiring humans, trailblazers, researchers, spiritual teachers and more on the journey of doing things the other way. On the journey of doing things the other way. Hello, my friends, and welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited to welcome my next incredible guest, Dr. Nalini Chilkov. Dr. Chilkov is a leading authority and pioneer in the field of integrative cancer care, cancer prevention and immune enhancement. She's the founder of the American Institute of Integrative Oncology Research and Education and the creator of the Outsmart Cancer System. Dr Chilkov is the author of the best-selling book 32 Ways to Outsmart Cancer how to Create a Body when Cancer Cannot Thrive. She has lectured at the School of Medicine at UCLA and UC Irvine and conducts seminars and training programs for clinicians worldwide. She has been featured as a cancer expert on NBC TV and is recognized as one of the top 10 online influencers for breast cancer, by WebMD and Sharecom, and today we are diving into an episode that is filled with first principles, a first principles perspective on cancer prevention, and what I mean by that. So you probably all know, especially if you listen to this podcast, some of the highlights of health eat well, sleep enough, manage stress, exercise, et cetera. But do you know why these things have an impact on your health and what they actually do to your cellular health, your immune system over time? In the US, one in two women and one in three men will develop cancer in their lifetime, and in the UK that is one in two adults, or one in two people. Excuse me, according to the NIH, but only 5% of cancers are purely genetic, and even then, your genes are a blueprint. So whether or not those genes activate or how they react in your body has a lot to do with your lifestyle, chemical exposure and a whole host of other factors, and that is really what we dive into today. We are going to cover defining cancer from a traditional Western medicine and Eastern medicine point of view, understanding cancer growth and development and the impact that our internal and external environment and choices has on that growth. The link between sugar and cancer it is not what you think. The link between diet and cancer and diet and preventing cancer and, again, it is not what you think the power of herbal medicine. We're going to be talking about the role that female hormones have in cancer prevention and really how to think about cancer prevention if you are a woman, and why estrogen matters, and so much more.

Kasia: 3:11

This is such an incredible episode. I am so excited to share it with you all today and, without further ado, let's welcome Dr Chilkov to the podcast. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to have you here. I've waited months for this, so I feel like there's been a bit of anticipation and I absolutely Thank you so much. I am just so excited to dive into all the things. I have a lot of questions for you, but before we get started, I do want to ask one question that I ask every guest and that is what are three words that you would use to describe yourself.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 3:59

Well, I always say that I'm on fire, I'm really mission-driven, and I would say I'm very compassionate and inspired. Those are beautiful.

Kasia: 4:12

And I mean I'm not surprised by that either which I always love asking this question, because for a lot of people who listen to this podcast or any other podcast, they go online and then try to get to know the guest that is on the episode and I will say that those words definitely resonate with like the vibe that you're putting out there. So I love that. I love that. So, before we dive into all the questions I have prepared, I would love to have you share a bit of your background, because you have a really interesting story that I've heard on a couple of podcasts now, but I would love for you to share with our audience what brought you into integrative cancer care, cancer prevention and immune enhancement.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 4:49

So when I was a teenager I found a doctor who was a homeopath and a chiropractor and an acupuncturist and I told my mom that's who I wanted my doctor to be, so the kind of medicine I have used myself personally my whole life pretty much. And then I thought that I wanted to go to medical school and then I just realized it would be in too much conflict with my core values doing that. So I ended up at that time in history I decided to become a doctor of oriental medicine because in California that meant I could be a primary care provider. That was the direction that I went in, but I had a hard science background and so I brought that with me.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 5:39

My practice is pretty medical compared to a lot of other doctorinal medicine, but it gave me this beautiful lens to look, through which I think of Chinese medicine as like the original naturopathic, holistic medicine, because it's really about where's balance and how do you come into harmony with nature and how do you restore balance, and it's about the all levels of a human being. So that was a better fit for me than conventional medicine and uh, so it blended with my my cell biopsy and genetics background. That's where my degree originally was. And then I was early in in my private practice and both of my parents were diagnosed with cancer in the 50s, in their 50s. So I watched their experience. Now they both lived to be 88, 90 when they died.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 6:35

So I, but I was just so troubled by the way that their cancer journey was because oncologists are just fascinated by the disease and the tumor but they really aren't interested in the body that's hosting in the first place. So there's that. And then there's also there's no health model in oncology. You know the word health doesn't even come up in the conversation. So I just like watched what they went through and they had treatable cancers. Not everyone does, but there are very treatable cancers that people recover from and live a long time, and so they were lucky that they had that type.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 7:19

But it really changed the course of my professional life and so I started to just try to help them. And then a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, and so then people hear you know you're doing neurocancere cancer patients, and they would come to me, and I really didn't know enough. So I went on a mission to really educate myself about oncology and naturopathic oncology and how was cancer being treated in China? And so it just took me on a journey, and I have to say that it's absolutely the most meaningful thing I have ever done. I really feel like I make a difference in people's lives, and that's a good day when I touch someone's life and make a difference. So the fact of my parents' diagnoses really kind of caught my attention and turned my interest, and now here we are, over 35 years later, and so it's been absolutely the most fulfilling and meaningful.

Kasia: 8:23

That is so wild to have you know that personal story really kick off this journey. And cancer is such an interesting diagnosis because it really is one of those words that when you hear it I think people become paralyzed in their bodies. I mean, I've had a couple of. You know, I'm 35, so I'm pretty relatively young but I've had some early scares in my life with non-cancerous benign tumors in my breasts and I just remember even like the prospect of a diagnosis like that just being completely crippling. So it's just so, I think, amazing to dedicate your practice to that field. That is like such a vulnerable point in people's lives.

Kasia: 9:11

Well, and my first goal when I'm with a patient is on the first visit, I want them to leave the appointment less anxious than they want to, if nothing else happens.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 9:17

I want the person who feels like their hair just got caught on fire with a cancer diagnosis to feel like they can have some control over the trajectory of their journey and you know the oncology setting. Or even, let's say, you know you're in your gynecologist's office and she finds something in your breast. It's very disempowering and very disenfranchising. You feel very at the effect of this medical system and overwhelmed by a body of knowledge you don't understand and aren't literate in. And so my first goal is for the patient to have a sense of agency and voice and to understand that when you have any serious illness, you really need a team and you need disease experts, but you also need health experts if health is going to be your outcome. If you don't have a plan for health, that's not where you're going, and so that's fundamental to my Outsmart Cancer model is that we have to have a plan for your health, not just a plan for your disease, and just that framing, I think, shifts the experience itself.

Kasia: 10:29

Yeah, yeah. And I heard you say on another podcast something that I think really resonated with me, because I imagine this time to be such a terrifying one for so many people. You talked about the fact that you know, a lot of the times this, the tumor or the cancer itself, it grew over a period of time and then we find it and we're like reactive to it and we're stressed out about it, which, as you talk about in your books and have spoken on in other interviews, you know that stress is actually quite harmful as well and we'll get into that. But I just I love the notion of like you don't you know you're not on fire immediately, right, like you can take a pause for a moment.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 11:07

Well, that's extremely important to understand, because oncologists make you feel like tomorrow you need to start treatment, and it's actually not true. If you think about one aberrant cell went haywire and then it divided into two cells and then divided into four cells, and by the time you find a mass that's three millimeters in size, which is the head of a pin, it has a billion cells in it, and so from that one cell to a billion cells is a lot of cell divisions, and so it takes. You know, most cancers are there for 10 to 20 years before they're found, and a lot of us die with microscopic cancers in our body that never do anything because our immune system takes control of them. And so, you know, cancer is primarily a disease of people over 50, because the immune system ages and becomes less competent, and also because we are exposed to more carcinogens over time that cause the cellular physiology to be disrupted. So that's why cancer is primarily a disease of older people, but it's actually quite alarming if you, you know you've paid attention to the news recently there's an incredible rise both in breast and colorectal cancer in people in their 30s and 40s now.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 12:36

So we all need to pay attention and not be cavalier about symptoms that are not normal and it's really important to just go get checked out. You know, you don't that there's a tendency when you're younger to think, oh, I'm not really vulnerable to that. But the earlier you are diagnosed, the smaller the job is and so want to. You know, I think it's really important to. If you have abnormal bleeding or pain that doesn't go away, if you start to lose weight and you don't know why, or you feel fatigued, those are like obtuse symptoms. But they could be cancer, they could be something else, but you should just go get checked out.

Kasia: 13:20

I think that's so, so, so important to call out, and I definitely want to circle back to that lifestyle part. But before we do, I want to actually ask a very basic question, because I feel like with your expertise you can really dive into it. And that is I'm curious, from the perspective of Western medicine, how is cancer defined versus Chinese medicine? Because I'm really curious about that.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 13:44

Western science is very reductionist right and doesn't consider whole systems. So we think of cancer. The old definition of cancer is cells that are dividing without limit right. They just keep dividing, keep dividing, keep dividing.

Kasia: 14:04

And these are human cells, right, which is also kind of wild, oh yeah.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 14:08

Your own cells, okay, your own body cells that have gone haywire, okay. So the genetic program gets altered, the DNA gets damaged and the software is faulty, and so the cell can't regulate itself. And one of the cellular functions is to limit cell divisions just to heal a wound and then it stops. But if cell division goes on, you get a mass, you get a tumor. Now there are blood cancers that aren't about solid masses, but essentially cancer cells are your own cells that have their software has been disrupted and they're no longer have normal physiology in many ways, but the primary ways, they don't stop dividing. And so what a lot of people don't realize is you can have cancer and live with cancer for a really long time and not have it kill you. The primary tumor, the original site of the cancer, very rarely kills anybody. When you have advanced cancer, and that we call that metastatic cancer, when cancer cells will travel from the primary site to another location in the body, if that location is a place and an essential organ, then and it grows there, like in your liver or in your brain or in your lungs, that's when cancer becomes lethal. So you know, cancer is not urgent care, cancer is actually a chronic metabolic illness. So in conventional oncology the tumor is analyzed to see what its characteristics are. So the other thing to understand is there are cancers right, there's not just cancer, it's not one disease, cancer is a thousand diseases, and so it's a set of abnormal cells that have lost their ability to control their own growth and division. The stop signal has gone and the gas is on and the brakes are off, and it's happening in a location originally, but then it can travel, and so cancer cells have this characteristic of being able to travel through the bloodstream without the immune system inhibiting them and land in another part of your body and then grow in a secondary site, and so not normal cells don't do that. So that's sort of what's the behavior and characteristics of cancer cells is what oncology looks at In a more holistic view, like Chinese medicine or naturopathic medicine.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 16:44

We ask a larger question, which is not only do we want to understand the characteristics of the abnormal cells, but we want to know about the biosystem that is permitting cancer to grow and develop and progress. We want to understand the environment, we want to have a whole systems approach. So I look at three layers. So first you have to understand the cancer itself. Then we have to understand the host, the biosystem that has a permissive environment for cancer to arise and grow. And then we have to understand the larger environment that's also influencing that biosystem, that individual. So you know, are you exposed? Did you grow up in a farm? You're exposed to pesticides your whole life, you know. So we want to understand that. And then I put in the environment also put medications that you take and toxic relationships you may be in. And you know, you have to understand the environment that you find yourself in. So there's sort of those three layers that really have to be considered.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 17:50

To come up with a plan that's a real solution, a real long-term solution, you have to touch all those layers as well. And so, for example, in the United States today we have an epidemic of obesity and diabetes and prediabetes, and so what a lot of people don't understand is that if you have elevated blood sugar and elevated insulin which is what diabetes and prediabetes are, and that contributes to obesity and if you have obesity you're super inflamed and you have higher estrogen because of all your body fat, those are drivers of cancer. So people with obesity and diabetes and prediabetes have a 40% increased risk of getting cancer or having a cancer recurrence, right, and even a lot of general practitioners and family docs don't know that, and so it's really important. The whole picture is important, right, and a lot of the cosmetics that women use on their body have chemicals in them like parabens that are carcinogens that promote cancer, and so you put something on your skin your whole life and it gets absorbed every day in micro amounts. The exposure over a lifetime is huge.

Kasia: 19:03

Wow, wow, oh, my gosh. There's so much to get into with that, because I know you talk a lot about that in your book, how to Outsmart Cancer and I definitely have a host of questions around that. But I want to, for a moment, actually go back to what you talked about with the kind of insulin cancer connection, because I recall you speaking on another podcast the connection not so much between sugar and cancer but insulin and cancer, and that, like absolutely floored me. Can you talk a bit about that?

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 19:39

Yes, so there's a misunderstanding. A lot of people say sugar drives cancer, but that's not actually true. Cancer cells prefer sugar as a fuel. But when you eat a carbohydrate which is a starch or a sweet so that might be grains or pasta or a potato, or fruit, or honey or maple syrup or refined sugar all those things are carbohydrates. And when you eat a carbohydrate, it is normal physiology to produce insulin, Insulin. The job of insulin is to take the sugar that's in the blood and deliver it into the cell for fuel. Now, when you eat too many carbohydrates, you produce a huge amount of insulin and because you need more to get all that sugar out of the blood and into the cell. And so if your body can't do that, your blood sugar stays high. And when your blood sugar stays high, your brain thinks you need more insulin. So it's this vicious cycle of high blood sugar, high insulin, and that's what type 2 diabetes is.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 20:42

Type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disease. It's something else. It is also a risk factor for cancer, but for different reasons. So type 2 diabetes is the epidemic we have, and pre-diabetes is on your way there, and so there's a lot of people walking around who just have unhealthy high blood sugars and unhealthy high insulin. Who are in this predicament? And Americans eat really a lot of carbohydrates and a lot of refined flours and sugars for the most part, and even people who think they're eating healthy eat a lot of fruit and fruit juices and sugary kombucha and a lot of things that trigger insulin. So insulin is a hormone with a specific, normal job, but when it gets high and stays high, then it is one of the main drivers for cancer and that is because cancer cells have more receptors on their surface of the cell for binding insulin, for glucose, for insulin-like growth factors. So, for example, there's a couple of cancers that really have a lot more receptors. Breast cancer is incredibly sensitive to blood sugar and insulin.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 21:56

So our OutSmart Cancer Diet approach is to teach people how to eat a low-carb diet, not a no-carb diet, a low-carb diet. And if your carbs have a lot of fiber in them, then that slows down the blood sugar and insulin spikes. So that means you eat a plant strong diet with lots of colors, so you get all those beautiful phytochemicals in the plant that actually talk to your genes and turn off cancer promoter genes and turn on cancer inhibitory genes. So it's not really complicated. But you have to take all the refined food out of your meals, and refined food includes fruit juice. So if you take the fiber out of fruit it becomes a sugary drink that spikes your blood sugar and your insulin. So you need the fiber that's in fruit.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 22:45

So you know, people think they're eating something healthy and they don't understand it's really throwing them off. So you need the fiber that's in fruit. So you know people think they're eating something healthy and they don't understand it's really throwing them off. So having a glass of orange juice at breakfast, you might as well have just had a Coke, you know. So if you will not understand that, so whole foods like it's kind of simple whole foods, plant strong diets, adequate protein and lots of healthy fats and oils. That's all that's it. That's all you have to do. So insulin is a driver of cancer growth and in order to lower insulin, you have to lower the intake of carbohydrates, fruits, sweets, sugars and starches in your diet. So insulin is a growth factor for cancer.

Kasia: 23:28

I think that is such an important distinction because, you know, I have heard terminology out there like you know, sugar it, you know it feeds the cancer. But I think really understanding the mechanism behind that is just so, so, so important, which I think it's. It's also really empowering too, because it kind of segues really well into a lot of what you have shared around. I think you call it that it's. You know, how do you strengthen the soil in which, like the micro environment of your body, in order to really create a body where cancer does not thrive? And I think that that is such an empowering topic to really think about the power that we have to influence the outcome. And so, before we dive into some of those recommendations, could you kind of share with us, maybe from more of like a first principles point of view when it comes to cancer and the development of cancer and maybe like a cancer diagnosis how much do genetics play a factor versus, like, epigenetics and our lifestyle and the changes that we make?

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 24:35

So about 5% of all cancers are driven by a genetic trait. So that's like, is there a gene linked to a type of cancer? So yeah, there are, but cancer is really complex. The physiology of cancer is multifactorial. And so BRCA positive breast cancer BRCA is a gene and Angelina Jolie is a BRCA positive breast cancer survivor and those genes make aggressive, lethal breast cancers. But that's like 5%. So we know that there are genes that are linked to many cancers.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 25:13

But that's a very reductionist kind of Western medicine kind of view. And so if you want to think about genetics, so like I thought about my parents, right, why did both of them get cancer kind of about the same time? So I thought, well, maybe they had environmental exposures, right? Or maybe in our family we don't have good detoxification genes, so things in the environment stay in the body too long and damage the cells. People have genes that make for more inflammation in their body. People have genes that inhibit their ability to excrete their own estrogen, so they get more exposure to their own hormones. So there are genetic contributors to metabolism, right To all of our risk factors, like inflammation, blood sugar control, like estrogen and hormone metabolism. There are traits that can put you in a garden with soil that grows cancer, right? So that's the metaphor you change the soil, you change what grows there. So genetics affects whole system tendencies, but actually a gene linked to a cancer, that's actually very rare, actually. We're learning more about it.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 26:30

But the question of epigenetics is a far more important one and something that we can take control of. Because let's just stop and say, your genetics is like your book of life, it's your blueprint and it's your software. But, as we know, if you don't open up software it doesn't do anything. So you can't write a letter unless you open up your word processor. So genes are the same. Even though you have certain genes, they're not all opened up and reading.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 27:00

And so epigenetics is how does the environment of the cell influence gene expression? So there's really simple things actually that change a lot of our genes, like how much sleep do you get? How much stress is there? Do you eat enough protein? You know there's things that affect our genes, and so this is why it matters what you eat. This is why plant medicine works, this is why it matters if you sleep, this is why it matters if you manage your stress, because the epigenetic effects.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 27:34

Epi means on top of genes, right, epigenetic. So what is it that's influencing gene expression? What software is getting opened up and turned on and what isn't? What programs are running your system and which ones aren't? So you just looking at your genetics doesn't tell you that right. And so we're going to come to a time where we can test that and there are some ways we can now look at what genes are driving certain cancers present tense in this moment. What's making that cell grow? And that's the mRNA, which came to the foreground in the middle of COVID. But mRNA is the active form of your genetics. It's the software that's on right, and so the DNA is protected. It's in the nucleus of the cell and it's quiet and certain things will turn it on, and that's the epigenetic effect, and so we can't take so much control over all of that.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 28:34

So if you look at my family history, not only did both of my parents have cancer in their 50s, but there's cardiovascular disease. Everybody dies of a heart attack or a stroke or high cholesterol. There are genes for dementia, there are genes for macular degeneration and blindness, there are genes for high blood pressure, there are genes for osteoporosis. I have all those genes. I don't have that going on because of my lifestyle, my diet.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 29:05

There was a study some time ago that sort of the gist of it was that if you eat 50 different phytochemicals every day you can have incredible health because your epigenetic programming and signaling is so fantastic. So there was a guy that tried to eat 50 different plants and vegetables every day, but really all you have to do is take herbal medicine to do that. It's not that hard. So I would say my first love is herbal medicine and I've been using herbs myself for, you know, since I was a teenager, and so I think that is a lot of what has driven my story in my 70s now to not living out my family's genetic potential right. So genes are only potential, they're not fate.

Kasia: 29:56

Could you speak a bit about this herbal medicine, because I don't think I've actually heard that before. I feel like when we think phytonutrients, we're mostly talking about plants and vegetables and it's like you know all the stuff we hear. We should do that a lot of people don't do. But tell me a bit about herbal medicine and like how that can actually provide some of those nutrients.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 30:15

Well, herbal medicine is plant medicine, and what makes a food plant different from a medicinal plant is its phytochemicals. So let's take the most famous herbal medicine, ginseng. So ginseng is an incredibly unusual plant because it has over 30 different active phytochemicals in it that make it medicine. Like other plants, like, say, something like ginger or turmeric, might have a few you know less than five active phytochemicals in it that also make it medicine and as well as food. But something like ginseng has all these plant chemicals in it that food plants don't have, and that's why it's a medicinal plant, not a food plant. Plus, it's really bitter so we wouldn't want to eat it.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 31:08

But so if you think of medicinal plants as plants that are very concentrated in therapeutic phytochemicals and the beauty of plant medicine is that we have evolved in nature with plants and so plant medicine like, for example, everybody knows curcumin, if you talk about cancer, curcumin is the main phytochemical that comes from turmeric, and curcumin interacts with over a hundred different genes that drive cancer and are involved with cancer physiology and cancer metabolism. So there's no drug like that. If that was a drug, it'd be a blockbuster drug. You know, resveratrol is a phytochemical that comes from the skin of red and purple grapes and a little bit in cranberries and some other red and purple plants, but resveratrol interacts with over 50 genes and receptors and pathways in the cell that are involved with cancer physiology. So what makes a plant medicine is that it has phytochemicals in it that aren't in our food plants. That's what's the difference. But some plants that we eat also have medicinal properties, like your spice rack. So your kitchen has a lot of medicine in it also.

Kasia: 32:39

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Kasia: 33:09

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Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 34:11

Yeah, there's some really basic principles. So controlling your blood sugar and your insulin is a big lever. It's not a small thing to do, it's a gigantic thing to do, and so you want to eat a diet that keeps your blood sugar and your insulin in the low, healthy normal range, and most Americans are in the high and above the high normal range.

Kasia: 34:30

And could I ask a quick question about that too how important is it to keep it low and also not to kind of prevent the spikes? Because I feel like that's also slightly different too right, we have some people who have massive spikes, or Well it's natural.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 34:47

After you eat a meal, your blood sugar and insulin go up, but then they should come down, and so now there's a tool called a continuous glucose monitor that you can wear and monitor how food influences your blood sugar, and it's connected to an app on your phone and you can actually learn. So I have patients actually wear one for two to three months as a biofeedback device to learn what they should eat not eat, and so I don't have to say anything after they wear that monitor. They know how food choices affect their blood sugar. So it's a learning curve. You have to go on, but it's kind of simple actually. So managing insulin and blood sugar is key to inhibiting wildfire cancer growth.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 35:35

Inflammation is very important. Cancer is an inflammatory syndrome and the presence of inflammation also makes you a better host for cancer. So controlling inflammation. So an anti-inflammatory diet is a plant-strong diet and a diet high in healthy fats and oils, because healthy fats and oils are naturally anti-inflammatory and a lot of plant chemicals are naturally anti-inflammatory. So if you eat the rainbow, you're not only getting a wide variety of nutrients, but you're also getting a lot of anti-inflammatory phytochemicals and you're also getting a lot of phytochemicals that turn cancer genes off. So that is another piece inflammation, blood sugar. The other is sort of maintaining the ability to detoxify, and so eating a lot of plants helps you to do that. A high fiber diet is inherently helps you to detoxify, because the fiber in the gut actually binds to a lot of things that are then excreted in the stool. So what else helps you detoxify is to sweat. So if you get exercise every day or if you want to do a sauna, that's incredibly important to normal detoxification. Having normal, healthy elimination requires a high fiber diet and exercise. I mean this is like not complicated things right?

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 37:05

Sleep has a huge, huge impact on our immune function. Eating adequate protein has a huge impact on our immune function. As we age, we actually need more protein, not less. So a lot of people don't realize that. So you should be eating about one gram of protein for every pound of body weight. So that's a lot of protein. So you have to learn how to get that much protein. Now I'm in my seventies and I should be eating 120 grams of protein a day. I just cannot eat that much food. It's not even possible. So I utilize free form amino acid powders and I'll take a big heaping scoop away powder and put in a glass of water to get another 30 grams of protein. So I can't I just can't eat that much food. So you have to think through it, because the immune robustness requires adequate protein to be able to make antibodies to heal a wound, to fight an infection. You need adequate protein and you need adequate sleep. Immunity really suffers when you don't sleep, and then when you don't sleep, you have poor judgment and you make poor choices, and when you don't sleep you tend to eat more carbohydrates and sweets also. So you know it's all connected. Right, it's all connected. So the other thing is, when you eat enough fiber, you're able to excrete your estrogen normally, and so vegetarians tend to have lower estrogen levels than meat eaters just because of the difference in fiber in the diet, and so vegetarians tend to have lower estrogen levels than meat eaters just because of the difference in fiber in the diet, and so fiber is required to be able to detox your own estrogen.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 38:50

Having a healthy microbiome is crucial to healthy immunity and normal whole body inflammation and also to many of the detoxification functions. The bacteria in the gut also make a lot of B vitamins neurotransmitters for the brain, and so it's very important to again have a high fiber diet so you have a healthy microbiome, and to eat a little bit of fermented food every day, just like a teaspoon of fermented food, which could be fermented vegetables, sauerkraut, kimchi, could be some kombucha that's not sugary. It could be kefir or yogurt. There's a lot of fermented food in all traditional diets, so eating a little bit of healthy bacteria from a variety of different foods is actually better than taking probiotics. So having a healthy gut is crucial to normal immunity.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 39:43

We know that cancer patients who have a healthier microbiome have also a better response to chemotherapy and immunotherapy and get less complications from surgeries. So those are kind of like the big ideas. And when you eat a plant strong diet that's colorful, you're getting lots of antioxidants. So another way that our cells get damaged is from free radicals and too much oxidative stress, and that damages the DNA and that can cause a cell to go haywire and turn into a cancer cell. So it's not that hard to change the soil in the garden and change your biosystem. It's not that complicated really.

Kasia: 40:27

I love this. I love this breakdown because I feel like we're told that these things are healthy, but I also really love the connection of explaining how each of these lifestyle choices really do connect in one way or another to not just like we're using the metaphor of health of your soil, but like actual actions in the body, right. So like the lack, for example, like the way you were talking about lack of sleep, how that leads to inflammation and the conditions that that can lead to in terms of craving more sugar and then how that leads to those kind of insulin spikes and how, over time, those decisions accumulate. And I think it's just so, so powerful to not just think about, okay, like these are the ways to be optimally healthy quote unquote. But you know, as it relates to cancer, I think it has just such very tangible connections to what happens to your cells when you don't make some of these choices repeatedly right, Like over and over and over again, that there is a cumulative effect there of not detoxing and whatnot.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 41:34

And there's a cumulative effect of what we're exposed to in the environment as well. So, over the course of a lifetime, if you have been exposed to food preservatives or food colorings or red dye number two in your lipstick, then you have a lifetime of exposure to chemicals we're not biologically designed to deal with. And so that's the problem with the modern world. And since, you know, since the industrial revolution really, and is when our health started to change a lot, our health started to change a lot both in positive and negative ways, with the advent of antibiotics, which decreased acute infections but increased the presence of autoimmune disease and disrupted microbiome. So you know, everything is a tool. We have to use it appropriately.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 42:29

And so the other big piece is to make an effort to avoid exposures to environmental toxins. And there is a lot of inequity in that, because people who are poor live in neighborhoods that might be near factories or oil refineries or places where the air is more polluted or more filled with particulate matter, or living on soil where there was some kind of toxic dump. So we have to understand that privilege allows you a lot of more safety in our world as well. So it's very important to the best of your ability to avoid exposures to environmental toxins, and that includes your toothpaste. You know fluoride is a toxin, so you don't want to have fluoride in your toothpaste. So if you don't want to get cavities, don't eat sugar and have good oral hygiene. It's not rocket science. So there's a lot that goes into marketing in our world that causes people to do things that don't make any sense at all.

Kasia: 43:31

Yeah, we talk a lot on this podcast about, especially since we cover a lot of hormonal health topics. We talk a lot about fertility and both preconception and postpartum. Especially this season, that's been like quite a focus for us and it is just wild to recognize how these chemicals are embedded everywhere, from fragrance to lipstick, as you mentioned, to your underwear. I mean I love that there's more in the news these days that's talking about. I think Bloomberg recently put out a piece on PFAS and the effect and like all these endocrine disruptors and the effect that they have on our body. But I just think, going back to what you shared at the beginning, like from a first principles point of view, like the things that you consume, like they're digested into your body somehow, Like your cells are recreating every single day and if you're consuming these weird things, like cumulatively over time, they get incorporated into your cells.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 44:26

And now plastics and microplastics. There's all these studies coming out showing that there's microplastics in breast milk, you know, and so it really matters. Don't store your food in plastic containers, you know. Store it in glass, and so it matters. Your cookware matters. Don't use aluminum in your kitchen, you know, it really matters, because it's about lifetime cumulative exposures.

Kasia: 44:57

I think that's so powerful. There's one more question. I want to make sure that I get in here because I was reading through your book and I love that you did touch on a bit and you even talked about, you know, estrogen kind of reducing, detoxing excess estrogen in your body. I'm curious, when it comes to creating kind of a preventative environment for cancer to not thrive, how do we think about female hormones and the role that the fluctuations in hormones and hormonal balance can play or not play in optimal health? I'm curious, what is your perspective on that, especially because you know females have such a delicate hormonal system, biological females who kind of follow that curve and you know there's a lot of influence in that. Like, what should we be thinking about those of us who are in a biologically female body, for whom you know a lot of this podcast is catering to? What should we think about when it comes to cancer prevention there and lifestyle choices or some things to consider cancer?

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 45:59

prevention there and lifestyle choices or some things to consider. Well, first of all, all women know, or biological women know, that at different times of the month you are in a totally different reality, and we define our reality by where we are hormonally. So women will say I'm bleeding, I'm fertile, I'm nursing, I'm pregnant, I'm perimenopausal, I'm postmenopausal. We actually define our reality by where we are hormonally, because we know we're different in all those different states, and so that's particular to women. And in the modern world there are so many endocrine disruptors, hormonal disruptors and estrogenic chemicals, and these are chemicals that can bind to the estrogen receptor on your cells and turn on the functions that normal estrogen would turn on in excess. And estrogen itself is a proliferative hormone. It builds up the lining of your uterus to host a baby, it builds up your milk ducts to make milk for a baby, so it's a hormone that makes more cells right, and so if we're getting that make more cells signal all the time, then we make cancer sometimes, and so this is the problem, okay. And then there is the problem of estrogen replacement therapy being done recklessly, I would say. So I think that there is a place for hormone replacement therapy as a path to health for older women. But it's done very recklessly to try and create the body of a 30-year-old where that would not be healthy. Because if you look at the normal hormonal life cycle of a biological woman, nature does not expose you to high levels of estrogen your whole life cycle, just for the survival of the species, just to reproduce, and because high estrogen is not a good idea for the whole life cycle, because it's a proliferative hormone, makes more cells, and so birth control pills also put you in an estrogen dominant physiology. So this is why there are problems. So you don't want to have estrogen be too high, which is a challenge in an environment filled with estrogenic chemicals. So that is why you want to be mindful about what you eat. So every time you eat an animal fat, you are eating some estrogen, because estrogen is a fat-soluble hormone and it is in the female animal and that's who we eat. You know we eat female animals, their flesh and their milk and their fats, butter, etc. So if you eat less animal fat, you will be eating less estrogen. Number one If you avoid pesticides, which are endocrine disruptors, you will be taking away another estrogenic signal. Plastics have hormonal impact. So again, it's not rocket science.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 49:11

Eat a plant-strong diet. You don't have to be vegetarian, but eat a plant-strong diet. When you eat animal products, make sure they were raised without estrogen added to the feed. And if you eat lots and lots of fiber, meaning a lot of vegetables, then you're going to excrete more estrogen more normally.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 49:30

People who actually eat more soy, especially in their early life, have less breast cancer and ovarian and estrogen-linked cancers. So plant estrogens are actually protective early in life. And if you look at cultures like Asian cultures where soy is a big part of the food, the diet, there's less estrogenic cancers. In countries where soy is a primary protein, partly it's a vegetarian or high-fiber product, but you're not eating so much animal fat and animal estrogen that way. So the modern diet, particularly the standard American diet, is pretty low in fiber and high in animal fat. So that's a problem.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 50:14

So think about it. You eat more estrogen in your food, you eat more sugar, and so there's two proliferative habits in the standard American diet that drive a body ecology that would be a host for cancer and that's a pro-inflammatory diet. Also is to avoid chemicals in our body care and cosmetic products that are estrogenic, particularly parabens, but there are a number of other chemicals that are commonly in cosmetics that are also carcinogenic, and so you want to be mindful of, as a consumer, the brands you buy. You want to support the companies that choose to keep our environment safe and our bodies safe, and you want to try and not be exposed to plastics too much. So these are modern, life is a challenge, and so I mean, even if you go to a natural food store, half the things are packaged.

Kasia: 51:14

I know I was thinking about that.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 51:17

But plastic water bottles are full of plastic particles. So you know, having glass or stainless steel water bottles is really important. So especially think about children. So children are in a smaller body in the same room that we're in in a larger body. So if the environmental exposure in the room is the same for a large human and a small human, the small human's getting exponentially more exposure. So we want to make our environment safe for our children also as much as possible.

Kasia: 51:51

So maybe just because we're almost at time, but I do need to throw this in there, because you talked a lot about the importance of protein, of course, plant-based diet I'm curious for you personally, then what would you recommend in terms of getting enough protein but also not overdoing it with you know animal meat, or is it just really choosing the right kind of animal meat when you do eat it? Like, what do you recommend when it comes to actually thinking about you know protein?

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 52:19

Well, if you choose lower fat like a chicken breast is lower fat than a chicken leg or thigh and it's raised free range and without hormones in the feed you can have some chicken and you can have some fish, but you know, fish is full of mercury so it's hard.

Kasia: 52:40

I don't know how we're going to survive this.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 52:44

So you can have. Some beans are a good idea, and for people who tolerate dairy, a little bit of dairy is okay, as long as it's from a dairy that doesn't add estrogen to the feed. Eggs are a great food and a good source of protein and omega-3s if you get high omega-3 eggs. So you can figure it out. You know. A little bit of fish, a little bit of chicken, some beans, some eggs, and then, for someone like myself, I just can't eat that much food, so I take some protein powders, you know, or a meal bar or something that has 19 grams of protein in it. So you have to figure it out. But as you age, you'll lose too much muscle mass. One of the bonuses we actually have for your community is a handout I created on the link between a healthy gut and estrogen.

Kasia: 53:35

Love that, love that. Well, we're going to hyperlink that below.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 53:56

So that's Love. That Well, we incredibly important to cancer immunity as well as bone and brain and cardiovascular health and having adequate bone minerals. Women have a higher need for magnesium and I like to put some Chinese mushrooms in sort of the basic daily plan because they're so powerful in cancer immunity and inflammation control and blood sugar control, and Chinese mushrooms were used for meditation and spiritual practice as well. So you know that sort of following the Outsmart Cancer Diet. It's a good idea for lots of other risk factors. It's just a healthy, low-risk diet for cardiovascular disease and obesity and diabetes the big things that Americans suffer from and having kind of just basic supplements I think is a good idea. Nobody eats perfectly every day. Stay on top of your protein. Those are you know.

Kasia: 54:56

Oh my well, we have a lot of information here to digest. No pun intended. I could speak with you for hours. We could go down the whole mushroom rabbit hole. However, we are at time, so I would just love to wrap with is there anything you want to share with our audience? I'm going to link where they can find you in the show notes below, but if you have anything coming up that you want to give a shout out to, I know we're going to have some folks that want to connect with you and we'll put that handout in the show notes.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 55:25

Well, I'm just about to launch a new website called outsmartcancer. com. It's not quite live yet, but it's coming soon, about to birth it, and that'll have a lot of free resources for people and it'll help people to understand how to implement all these ideas that we talked about, because most physicians are not trained in this model of health or in this model of health for cancer patients or cancer survivors. So you need a plan, but the big message is you can take control of the trajectory of your health and the trajectory and outcome of your cancer journey. But you have to have a health plan, not just a disease plan.

Kasia: 56:02

Yeah, oh, so well said, dr Chilkov. It was such a beautiful joy to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Nalini Chilkov: 56:10

You're most welcome. Thank you for inviting me.

Kasia: 56:12

Thanks everyone. Thank you so much for tuning into the Other Way. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a five-star review. It really helps the podcast grow and I'm ever so grateful. If you want to stay connected, you can find information on how in our show notes. And finally, if you're curious about inflow and want free resources around cyclical living or moon cycles, check out inflow. And want free resources around cyclical living or moon cycles, check out inflowplannercom. And, of course, for all my listeners, you can use the code podcast10, and that's all lowercase podcast10, for 10% off any purchase. All right, that's all for today. See you next time.