ESA's Ian Carnelli - Deflecting Asteroids through Humble Leadership

Host: Markus
Guest: Ian Carnelli, HERA Mission Director, ESA

In this episode of the Space Cafe Podcast, Markus dives into the fascinating world of planetary defense with Ian Carnelli from the European Space Agency (ESA). They discuss the monumental joint mission between ESA and NASA aimed at protecting Earth from potential asteroid impacts, reflecting on the long journey, challenges, and successes of the project.

Guest Background

Ian Carnelli is the Mission Director at ESA, deeply involved in the HERA mission, part of the planetary defense initiative. His journey into space missions began nearly two decades ago, leading to his crucial role in this groundbreaking project.

The Origin of the Mission

• Ian’s Entry into ESA: Ian shares his serendipitous entry into ESA, starting with a last-minute application inspired by a conversation at a barbecue.
• Early Challenges: The mission's conception faced numerous hurdles, including skepticism and funding issues.

The DART and HERA Missions

• NASA's DART Mission: The Double Asteroid Redirection Test (DART) successfully impacted the asteroid Didymos, proving deflection techniques.
• ESA's HERA Mission: Set to launch to analyze the aftermath of DART’s impact, HERA aims to gather detailed data on the asteroid's altered state.

Overcoming Setbacks

• Funding Struggles: Ian recounts the emotional rollercoaster of securing funding for the mission, including a major setback in 2016 and eventual success in 2020.
• Team Dynamics: Building and maintaining a motivated and cohesive team despite numerous challenges, including the COVID-19 pandemic and supply chain disruptions.

Technical and Logistical Challenges

• Manufacturing Issues: The mission faced several technical hurdles, from faulty components to manufacturing delays.
• Innovative Solutions: The team’s ability to adapt and find creative solutions to unexpected problems was crucial for the mission's progress.

Personal Insights

• Leadership Philosophy: Ian emphasizes transparency, teamwork, and leveraging individual strengths within his team.
• The Human Element: Despite technological advancements, the mission’s success heavily relied on the dedication and hard work of the team members.

Notable Quotes

• Ian Carnelli: "I always told my teams or the people I work with, how little I knew. But I had this vision and I wanted their help."

Additional Resources

• Radiolab Podcast - Dino-pocalypse: YouTube Link
• ESA's HERA Mission: ESA HERA Mission Page
• NASA's DART Mission: NASA DART Mission Page

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

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Transcript

SCP_108_Ian_Carnelli_Master_Video

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Markus: So, um, thanks for, um, taking the time 

[00:00:03] Ian: me today.

[00:00:04] Markus: How did we end up here? I mean, like your, your mission, it dates way back, right? Yeah, right. So, the whole adventure started almost 18 years ago.

[00:00:16] Ian: Eight years. Eighteen. Eighteen years.

[00:00:19] Eighteen years ago. I, I was having a party, 

[00:00:23] uh, barbecue. good. Everything starts with a Everything 

[00:00:27] starts with a barbecue. And, um, there was this, um, opportunity for young graduates in ESA. Um, and there were a bunch of, uh, uh, positions open and I was thinking, yeah, it would be cool to work in ESA.

[00:00:43] I'd been there once as a student and I love the environment, the European environment and, uh, everything felt so stimulating, but okay, my grades were not so good, so I was like, yeah, my chances probably, you know, throughout Europe, there are so many good students. So I waited really the last minute. I was, I was sure I was never going to get in.

[00:01:06] So I think the deadline was midnight. So 1130 after a few bottles of wine, uh, my wife says, yeah, but, um, you know, you should try,

[00:01:18] okay, let's give it a try. So I, I went on the website and filled in the forms. And there were two positions, uh, that I was particularly interested in. One was asteroids, uh, asteroid mission concepts and, and the other one was about, um, future technologies in, uh, in the advanced concepts team.

[00:01:39] And, uh, I was hesitating and in the end I selected the asteroid mission. All I knew about Asteroid at the time was one picture of an Asteroid for some reason I had on my desk and, uh, I applied. I was called for the, for the interview. Um, so I traveled to [00:02:00] NordVik and eventually I got the job.

[00:02:03] Markus: were you majoring in at university? 

[00:02:05] Ian: Aerospace engineering.

[00:02:07] Markus: Okay.

[00:02:08] Ian: And, uh, and, uh, actually I still had to, to complete my studies. I had one exam left. So it was a very tricky situation because ESA had proposed my take up duty, first of July and my last exam. Uh, it was only a few weeks before I was like, ah, if I miss the exam, you know, anyway, all went fine.

[00:02:29] Uh, eventually, and, uh, it was, uh, it was the start of a fantastic adventure.

[00:02:34] Markus: you jumped right into the professional, the, the, the, yeah, the work, work

[00:02:39] Ian: And, um, and I, um, I remember I arrived, there was just so much going on. Um, uh, this professor called Milani just proposed a mission concept called Don Quixote to, to ESA.

[00:02:53] ESA was interested and I was there to, to, to, to get it started really with my, my boss at the time. And he was just so hyperactive. I loved it. There was so much adrenaline and running all the time and, and yeah, a lot of work. I learned so much.

[00:03:13] Markus: Why do you think you won ESA over?

[00:03:16] Ian: Um, I think the, the idea was completely innovative.

[00:03:20] Uh, interacting with an asteroid, uh, was something that nobody ever thought about. Um, and, uh, and it was really, uh, a direct, uh, way to test planetary defense, uh, instead of, uh, Uh, more conservative approaches and, uh, of, you know, looking at them from far away with telescopes. Um, as somebody says, you know, the, the, the, the idea was to get there and, and, and be personal, you know, get close and personal with an asteroid.

[00:03:53] Uh, the only information we had at the time were just very fast flybys of, uh, space [00:04:00] probes, flybys of a few. Seconds or minutes, so very limited information.

[00:04:06] Markus: So, so where is that asteroid?

[00:04:08] Ian: So, uh, that asteroid was, uh, Gaspre. But, uh, the proposed mission, uh, that was part of actually my early work was to select the target asteroid, the perfect target asteroid.

[00:04:22] So to help us in that, we, um, we hired, uh, a group of scientists.

[00:04:29] At the time, in 2002, there were not so many working in asteroid science and trying to work out which would be, uh, which would be the parameters describing, uh, the orbit of an asteroid that would be ideal for planetary defense. So you have to think about, uh,

[00:04:51] Did the motion of the of the asteroid if you if you push it How would it affect its orbit around the Sun and and the possible interaction with the Earth?

[00:05:00] Markus: So are we talking about the asteroid belt?

[00:05:02] Ian: No, we were talking about asteroids that, uh, are close to the earth. So things we call near earth asteroids, but there are hundreds, millions of those asteroids and uh, and all of them have very different orbits, but you can somehow group them, uh, by orbit type, uh, those that intersect the, the, the orbit of the earth, those that stay always outside, always inside.

[00:05:27] And, uh, that the intersection point, uh, drifts in, in, in certain ways over time. So all those parameters are the ones that we were looking at and the size, of course, of the asteroid. And among those, we selected two asteroids. Uh, nominal and backup in space. We always have backups and, uh, work with these two asteroids that have no specific name, just, uh, numbers for many years.

[00:05:55] Uh, and he was, uh, it was really exciting. He was really exciting. We [00:06:00] had all these ideas. about designing satellites, uh, reusing, uh, designs from, uh, uh, Earth observation satellites or telecom satellites or new satellites. So we're really exploring, uh, all kinds of different, uh, designs to achieve this mission.

[00:06:19] Markus: So the, the overall goal is to find out if it's technically possible to deflect an asteroid in the case that a dinosaur era, um, asteroid was on, on, on, on collision course, right?

[00:06:36] Ian: Correct. So the idea was to test a deflection technique called kinetic impactor. Uh, the physics tells you that if you hit an asteroid, uh, at high velocity, You will change its, uh, uh, its velocity and therefore its trajectory and you can knock it off course, uh, if you were on a collision course with Earth.

[00:07:02] The fact that we don't know the interior structure of asteroids, many of its properties, uh, um, is, is the problem because we, we know the, the theory, but we don't know if it really works as we expect. And that's the, the purpose of, uh, of, uh, of an experiment. Or, and the funny thing is that on earth, you cannot, you cannot model it.

[00:07:27] You cannot test in laboratories, uh, because there's always gravity and, uh, asteroids, uh, actually the, the threatening ones for the earth are several hundred meters in diameter. Uh, so even if you reproduce, uh, impact experiments, which, uh, which we do, uh, you always have to scale down and you never know how the physics really scales.

[00:07:49] So at some point, uh, when, when you think you have, let's say the models as good as you can. You really need to test for real. Um, [00:08:00] so that's, that's the whole purpose was to, to say, okay, today we think we have the technology, uh, mature enough to, uh, to deflect an asteroid. Will it really work? And that's, uh, that's what the, uh, the mission was about.

[00:08:14] So, we wanted to send a probe, uh, to impact an asteroid at high velocity and a second probe to study, uh, the effects of the impact and, uh, gather, uh, let's say the before and after, uh, uh, information about the asteroid, uh, shape, uh, the mass, uh, the crater size, the interior structure, uh, all those parameters that then you would plug in in a, in a computer model. Uh, to figure out if, uh, if you can reproduce, uh, on a numerical, uh, world, uh, what has happened in space.

[00:08:51] Markus: Let's cut corners right now because it's getting really exciting now. From what you've seen so far is, uh, my question would be, are we able to do it in case the dinosaur thing approaching?

[00:09:06] Yes, we are. Yes, we are.

[00:09:11] Ian: And, uh, Dart just proved that a year and a half ago, impacting a, an asteroid called the Morphos. Uh, it was an incredible mission. Uh, which started on the Don Quixote concept I mentioned in, uh, in 2003. So it was a long journey to get there, but eventually we did. We did this experiment and, uh, it worked completely different from, almost completely different from what we were expecting, which is again, the purpose of doing experiments for real.

[00:09:44] And it proved that we really needed to do this experiment. And so there. Two main results, uh, I would say, uh, first of all, we, we proved that we have today the technology to send a probe that can automatically, [00:10:00] uh, target and hit an asteroid at very high velocity. We're talking about more than 28, 000 kilometers an hour.

[00:10:07] And of course you cannot fly such a spacecraft from ground. So it needs to be, the final target, it needs to be autonomous. And it's, uh, it's not so easy and it worked well. It worked amazingly well. And the second main result is that the deflection was much higher than what we expected

[00:10:25] Markus: And no one knows why.

[00:10:26] Ian: and nobody knows why.

[00:10:27] So, uh, that's why we send the second probe as we had planned, uh, to figure out why. 

[00:10:33] Markus: wonderful. Now, cliffhanger. Let's not, let's, uh, let's not dive too much into what is, uh, About to be happening this year. Let's go back to when the mission started, um, 18 years ago. So you got the job, uh, you were all by yourself, I guess, no team available yet. How, how did everything start?

[00:10:52] Ian: No, actually I was lucky. Um, in ESA we always work as a team. And I was, uh, I, I was the newcomer, so I had lots of help and, uh, we really worked as a team. He

[00:11:04] Markus: the newcomer boss? 

[00:11:05] Ian: no, I was not the boss. I was, I was actually the last one in the ladder. Um, um, no, I had, uh, a very visionary boss at the time.

[00:11:16] Uh, Andres Galvez, he taught me a lot and he was, uh, amazingly creative in coming up with mission concepts. Uh, I think he was a physicist. He's a physicist by training. I think physicists have this peculiar mind

[00:11:34] of

[00:11:34] uh, sectioning problems and, uh, finding, uh, interesting solutions. Um, and many others, many other colleagues in ESA, uh, Uh, System Engineers, Propulsion Engineers, Electrical Engineers, all of those.

[00:11:49] We were, uh, working, um, in a, in a lab that was, uh, today's ancient history in wooden barracks and, uh, [00:12:00] and coming up with several mission concepts and several spacecraft design. And on top of that, um,

[00:12:07] We had a team of scientists supporting us, telling us, uh, all they knew about asteroids, uh, to help us design, uh, this mission.

[00:12:17] And these, these scientists were amazing. They were so passionate about asteroid science. They would spend hours and hours and hours, even off work, telling us all they knew about it. And I feel it was the first time, actually, I, uh, I found a group so motivated and willing to give all their time for us. Um, I really felt privileged and, uh, I learned, uh, a huge amount of information on asteroids at the time.

[00:12:50] And, uh, as a matter of fact, I'm, I'm friends now with all of them. And the community, the asteroid community since then just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And today is a big community and they keep doing science and research and understanding more. There have been more missions to asteroids and it's just a fantastic community to work with.

[00:13:12] Markus: what's your secret behind that to really get people engaged?

[00:13:17] Um, one of your colleagues, um, Margarita Cardi, um, sent me a video the other day from a Sunday. where she was going to a bakery to get, um, um, breakfast for her team. And she was like, it's Sunday, but still I'm working and I love my job. So how, um, Margarita is building the CubeSat for, for your project. So what's the secret behind that kind of engagement?

[00:13:48] Ian: That's a very good question. Well, first of all, I should say that, um, I would say that, um, I mean, planetary

[00:13:56] defense, if I were to tell you that, you know, we're going to [00:14:00] work together to come up with a space mission to save planet earth, know, who would not want to work on it?

[00:14:06] Markus: there?

[00:14:07] Do you have, is that, is that actually also on your business card? 

[00:14:11] Ian: card? No, it's just the Air Project Manager.

[00:14:13] Markus: Oh, no, because that would be pretty cool to leave your business card on a random just Yeah, I know, that's uh, I have a, actually there's a, there are two persons on the planet that I know who have this kind of business card.

[00:14:28] Ian: Planetary defense officer, 

[00:14:30] Markus: Black shades, black sunglasses.

[00:14:33] Ian: no, mine is, uh, is not as cool, but, uh, I mean, the topic is fantastic. And, uh, for an engineer, for an aerospace engineer is like a dream come true.

[00:14:44] So

[00:14:44] it's, it's easy. I would say it's, it's very easy. And I think the other, um, I think, okay, I don't have a strict secrets, but I would say I have a vision.

[00:14:55] I always had this vision that we could achieve a mission like this in, in maybe a different way than typical space missions that take 20 years, um, Mostly because we could cut corners and we could accept higher level of technological risk and maybe, uh, less performant payloads because after all the measurements we need to do are not so difficult.

[00:15:22] Um, and, and third, I always think that, um, I've just told everybody how little I knew about everything 

[00:15:29] Markus: Nice. 

[00:15:30] Ian: um, and which is true. When I started, I knew nothing about asteroids. I just read a few pages, you know, before the interview that I could find on a book. Um, and, uh, I hardly knew anything about mission design.

[00:15:48] I've done a few courses at the university. Um, and when I, You know, 20 years later, when I started the AIR project, I never managed a space mission [00:16:00] myself. Um, so all, all of the time I've always told my teams or the people I work with, uh, how little I knew. But I had this vision and I wanted their help. So I, my focus has been in engaging people, uh, and directing them to in the same direction.

[00:16:20] Markus: their strengths 

[00:16:20] Ian: exactly.

[00:16:21] So I think everybody feels like it's part, it's a, it's a, it's a necessary piece of the puzzle to get the project done and, and getting everybody together.

[00:16:32] Markus: So what was that strong vision that you were talking So the vision was to, uh, which I inherited from my, from my boss, from Andres and Frank Unger and many others is really to Uh, that it's worthwhile, uh, testing in space, uh, planetary defense mission before we actually have an asteroid heading towards Earth.

[00:16:54] which would make

[00:16:57] Ian: make sense to most people. But, uh, as you can imagine, you go to a politician and you say, can you give me 300 million euros? Uh, for a space mission and they ask you what it is about and then they say, yeah, but when is this asteroid coming and you say, it's not coming. Maybe it's in one century, maybe it's in a thousand years, we don't know.

[00:17:19] And this type of. Political decision is always outside the political, uh, landscape of any, of any, uh, decision maker. So it's very difficult, uh, to engage, uh, in such a discussion. Also, uh, asteroids, uh, sometimes have this giggle factor where, you know, um, there are so many media talking about, uh, threatening and asteroids passing by the earth and nothing really happens.

[00:17:50] That, um,

[00:17:53] that

[00:17:54] make the topic a little bit fun and not serious. [00:18:00] As a matter of fact, when we started, most of our colleagues were laughing when we were proposing this mission. It was not scientific enough. It was not technological enough. Uh, it was not. Interesting enough and worthwhile investing such amount of funding.

[00:18:18] Markus: Sometimes such a reaction is encouraging also because then you know you're onto something.

[00:18:23] Ian: that's actually true. And the, the project had so many setbacks that, um, um, that really pushed us to keep going. Um, because, uh, it's easy to say it's not cool enough when you have your. Uh, pockets full of funding for, for, for other missions, uh, but starting something from scratch,

[00:18:49] uh, uh,

[00:18:50] something that still doesn't have a, uh, a house, uh, even in a space agency, when we started, there was no planetary defense program, uh, so there was no house for it.

[00:19:01] There was no place, there was no program. And nobody really understood the meaning. Asteroids were these strange objects that nobody really cared about.

[00:19:12] Markus: And sometimes destroy entire biospheres? 

[00:19:16] Ian: Yeah, but it's something, you know, in 65 million years ago, who cares? And here we are, actually something good comes out of it. So, um, yeah, it was, it was incredibly tough. It was incredibly tough, but also rewarding. And the I could see over 20 years the, the, the asteroid community, the science, the asteroid science community growing at such a pace that, that was also encouraging us

[00:19:45] to

[00:19:45] keep 

[00:19:45] going. Um, and now, uh, now with a few space missions going to, to asteroids for other purposes, taking samples and understanding more and more about these objects.

[00:19:59] [00:20:00] Uh, it's, it's fascinating to see how we fit into that puzzle and something that was so strange 20 years ago, everybody, uh, agrees that it's the, the thing to do today and it's actually obvious 20 years later that we should have done it.

[00:20:14] Markus: Let's go back to, to your first baby steps. So you, you become part of, at the lowest part of the ladder of that team.

[00:20:24] Um, let's

[00:20:25] take it from here. How did you move on?

[00:20:27] Ian: So, um, yeah, I was, I was learning. I was the, the young

[00:20:32] Markus: what was your job?

[00:20:33] Ian: Uh, I mean, I was, uh, what we called a young graduate, uh, trainee. So I was a trainee. Uh, then I became, uh, a contractor, uh, and then eventually I became, uh, ESA staff.

[00:20:46] My role was to help, uh, it was a bit of everything, actually. It was, uh, like if you're working for a small company and you, one day you do advertisements, the next day you do financial accounting, and then you go and look for suppliers and all of that. So that's, that's really what we were doing at the time.

[00:21:06] Two, three of us, I was helping the system engineer, uh, in the spacecraft design. I was writing, uh, procurement documents, uh, to, to contract industry, uh, uh, legal documents, articles for the press, doing interviews as well. Um, a little bit of everything really, and, uh, supporting my management into, uh, convincing.

[00:21:33] Uh, decision makers to, to fund us, which we terribly failed at, at the time.

[00:21:39] So

[00:21:39] having, uh, meetings with, uh, what we call delegates, so representatives of the different, uh, member states, uh, countries, uh, belonging to ESA. And, um, and also working with NASA, uh, there were first parts of, uh, planetary defense at NASA as well.

[00:21:58] So we're trying to [00:22:00] coordinate and maybe find ways to, to work with, uh, together. So it was

[00:22:05] Markus: they had their own planetary defense thing and you had yours. And at some point you said, Hey, let's team up.

[00:22:11] Ian: Correct. One of our, uh, I think the first step was, uh, with NASA Ames. Uh, we were, uh, working on a mission concept, uh, or a mission design that require what we call a kickstage.

[00:22:24] It's a, it's a small motor that you would add to the rocket to get you to the right speed and the kickstage, uh, uh, available, the cheapest one was, uh, an American

[00:22:37] one

[00:22:37] from the U S and, uh, we're trying to see if they could contribute with some of these elements. Uh, so. We were inviting NASA colleagues, uh, to our review, uh, meetings, project review meetings and see how they could fit in.

[00:22:53] So that, that were the, the early days, uh, of planetary defense. Um, and then of course they, they grew up, uh, uh, a lot faster. Actually, they established a fully fledged planetary defense office much earlier than we did.

[00:23:10] And, uh,

[00:23:11] but since then we always work together, uh, one way or the other. We always coordinate in them.

[00:23:16] Uh, and now everything, I mean, the ESA planetary defense program is, is, uh, is also very well established and all the interfaces are there. So we made huge progress in, in, in 20 years in, in the field of planetary defense.

[00:23:32] Markus: defense. You mentioned that you had problems finding the funding initially. How did you win? Funder over for such a project. 

[00:23:43] Ian: Maybe one thing that everybody says is that I'm extremely stubborn. I'm extremely stubborn and, uh, and I, I really believe in my, in my dream to, to make this mission happen. And I also probably there's a [00:24:00] bit of ego where I wanted to prove that I was right. So a

[00:24:04] lot 

[00:24:04] Markus: Issa made the right choice.

[00:24:05] Ian: so, um, In 2016, it was the, is the day where, uh, or the year where I had the biggest setback because we went to, uh, what we call a ministerial conference is where you have all the ministers of the, uh, 22 countries that are responsible for the space budget, and that's where ESA proposes future programs, future projects for them to fund.

[00:24:35] And, um, It was the first time we made it to that level. Normally we were killed even before getting there. And that was in 2016, was the first time we made it to that table and it was a huge achievement. And the day before, uh, the meeting, uh, the meeting actually last two days, uh, the day before, uh, the first day, I was, we had a reception, you know, for what in other domains you would call the Sherpas, you know, all these people trying to have this side discussions to prepare the grounds for the next day.

[00:25:11] And I was receiving huge positive comments on the mission and, uh, from a lot of colleagues saying, yeah, finally this is going to, to, uh, to work. And I'm hearing that there's good support for the mission and we're confident we're going to make it also from my management level. I. I didn't want to give it too much hope, but inside, I, you know, I was, I was super happy.

[00:25:40] And then, uh, the next day, so I go to the meeting and, uh, the mission is finally on the table. And the way it works is actually that ESA announces the projects and every minister says how much money they want to put on the

[00:25:55] project.

[00:25:57] Markus: It's like in a casino. 

[00:25:58] Ian: Exactly. Yeah, it's [00:26:00] true. So at the time it was called the Asteroid Impact Mission and, uh, the mission is announced and then They call up every single country and I see no funding coming.

[00:26:10] No. Yes. Zero.

[00:26:12] you would sit in the back of the room and there's no funding Yes.

[00:26:16] And I'm like, Whoa, what's going on? And there are different rounds. Okay. So they do different rounds. Then there are splinter meetings.

[00:26:27] So in the second round, there are a few million that can start being put on the table and uh, I say, okay, maybe this is the start, the slow start of something bigger.

[00:26:37] Markus: Of course.

[00:26:38] Ian: we were asking if I remember, 180 million euros at the time. And, uh, we arrived, uh, at 75 million Euros, which is. Kind of short. That's okay. But there's one more round. So hopefully, and then in the, in, in that final round, instead of going up, actually a few countries announced that they would transfer all the funding that they put in the previous rounds on the asteroid in permission to other

[00:27:08] projects?

[00:27:08] So we went from 75 to 20, something like that. And at that point, yes, I was, uh, I was pretty shocked. Um, we had a Splinter meeting, uh, with a representative of the different countries, trying to understand what was going on. But in the end, it was clear that there were bigger interests, uh, than this mission.

[00:27:31] And, and they, they, the funding went away, just scrubbed it.

[00:27:35] Markus: Wow.

[00:27:36] Ian: So

[00:27:37] Markus: that was eight years of work for nothing.

[00:27:41] was eight 

[00:27:42] Ian: years of work for nothing. Yes. And, uh, the biggest The hardest day for me because I, I literally worked every single weekend, every single night, uh, until two in the morning. It's, it's difficult to express the amount of effort that [00:28:00] we, because it's not just me and the whole team, um, uh, the scientists, uh, Everybody put into this effort, uh, into this mission.

[00:28:12] Uh, it was huge work, huge work. And the worst thing is that, um, the ministerial conference itself was extremely successful. So ESA

[00:28:22] got got 

[00:28:23] a lot of money from your mission.

[00:28:25] But they even increased, as ESA, we increased the budget, I don't know, 10 percent compared to the previous ministerial conference.

[00:28:32] So there was a huge party that night. Uh, ESA party and everybody was celebrating. We had even connection from the space station, asteroids, uh, astronauts, uh, celebrating with us. And, uh, I was just crying. I was crying and probably I was super tired. I could not stop crying.

[00:28:52] Markus: Wow. Were you at the party?

[00:28:54] Ian: I was at the party.

[00:28:54] Yeah, that was my mistake, I guess, but I felt like, okay, I'm part of ESA and there's, you know, something bigger than me. So I, I, I was with the, with the rest of the ESA colleagues, but at some point, yes, I left the party and it was just too hard. So that was a hard day. That was a very hard day. I'll never forget.

[00:29:15] But

[00:29:16] Markus: Where was that conference? 

[00:29:17] Ian: In Lucerne, in Switzerland. And, uh, yeah, I remember leaving the party and, uh, in tears and probably cried for the whole night. And I thought, okay, that's it. You know, I, uh, I, I gave so much of my personal life to this project is really worth pursuing. And after all, if you get to this level, um, And they tell you, no, you know,

[00:29:47] why going back again?

[00:29:48] Why try again? So I said, okay, that's it.

[00:29:51] Markus: That's it.

[00:29:52] Ian: Yeah, that was, that was, uh, the Lucerne, uh, the Lucerne moment, uh, which was the [00:30:00] hardest I think in my professional career. And of course, also you can imagine all the colleagues and all the people that fought against the mission, because of course, when you try to get funding for a mission Many others believe that's money that you're taking away from other projects.

[00:30:15] So of course this helped others. Um, it was, it was really tough. It was really tough. Um,

[00:30:22] Markus: So what was the first team meeting like after that announcement?

[00:30:26] Ian: The first team meeting, I think I literally cried again.

[00:30:30] Um,

[00:30:31] and it was, uh, it was a sad moment. Uh, also, yeah, you have to imagine that it's, uh, by the moment, uh, we had, uh, not only lobbied politicians, but we had lots of industries with us, uh, trying to push for the mission. So Literally hundreds of people waiting for this project to materialize because the space mission

[00:30:55] Once it is implemented, uh, normally involves something like 500, 700 people working on it to, uh, manufacture the satellite, the spacecraft.

[00:31:07] So there were all of these people kind of waiting for Uh, the good news and to, to launch

[00:31:13] Markus: you had already teamed up with NASA also.

[00:31:15] So maybe NASA was also waiting for

[00:31:17] Ian: it. NASA was waiting also for the good news. Um, indeed, uh, it was a setback for them as well. Fortunately, uh, they managed. So the mission had evolved.

[00:31:30] The early donkey shot, the mission evolved in a way where the. The two probes, uh, were kind of independent, could work and had their own life even independently. So, uh, that was actually one of the factors that allowed us to continue is the fact that NASA, despite the setback of AIM, uh, Managed to convince, um, Congress to fund the DART mission and continue.

[00:31:59] And the [00:32:00] other, uh, game changer was the fact that, uh, a couple of ministers were extremely vocal on the, uh, on the interest of a mission like, like AIM. And asked at the end of the, of the meeting in Luzern, uh, that ESA continues its effort to do a mission like that. Of course, uh, one or two ministers are not enough, uh, but at least gave us, or gave ESA the mandate to continue working on it. And, uh, of course I, I took it quite personal. So after Lutzen, I thought, okay, I failed. I actually felt like I failed the whole group. I was not good enough to get the funding. So. My first reaction was to, to, to pass the baton to somebody else, uh, in my team and say, look, uh, probably I'm not expert enough, uh, it was my first ministerial, so that also I thought, okay, played some role.

[00:33:04] I was not experienced enough, so maybe somebody else should, uh, should take care now. Um. And I was, I was really convinced to do that. Uh, it's not easy because by then I had all the interfaces with, uh, with, uh, politicians, with 

[00:33:21] industry. Um, so, and, uh, it was Patrick Michel, I remember calling me and say, look, you cannot give up.

[00:33:29] Uh, you know, we have mobilized all the Asteroid community. We are all behind you. Uh, we're going to call ourselves the ministers and convince them that they made a big mistake. So he really went on a mission to, uh, to get this mission done. Uh, and, um, And it's funny. We have this little joke among us that it's, uh, we always tell our, our families [00:34:00] and friends that, okay, it's the one more try.

[00:34:02] It's the last time we try. It's the last time we try. And, 

[00:34:06] uh, I promise then I'll be home.

[00:34:08] and then I promise I will stop, but there's one more try I need to do. And I think this one more try lasted another four years. Um, 

[00:34:18] To the next ministerial. And again, we went into, into this loop, uh, of, uh, of, uh, funding, uh, some money, some funding to, to continue studies and continue improving the mission concept and the design.

[00:34:36] Uh, luckily, Germany, uh, uh, gave us another chance and they gave us some funding to work with the industry in re scoping and re optimizing the asteroid impact mission. And that's how the HERA mission was born from those early studies that lasted a year, year and a half. And, uh, and that's, and from there we had some kind of a snowball effect that allowed us to go to the next ministerial and be successful.

[00:35:06] Of course, the fact that, uh, uh, NASA managed to secure the DART mission, uh, was, was a key factor. But on the other hand, we had another issue is that, um, Thank you.

[00:35:21] politicians and

[00:35:22] many in ESA also were saying, okay, you failed in 16. NASA is launching DART nonetheless. So what's the point in getting to the asteroid after the impact?

[00:35:33] You're not going to see the before and after, but only the after. So we spent months and months and years to explain everybody that In space, there's no weather, so the crater will still be there years after the impact. Um, the, the, the reshaping will not change. Uh, there are many, all the things we want to measure, uh, uh, the structure of the asteroid, the [00:36:00] composition, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:36:01] There are things that, uh, we want to know and we need anyway. And, um, and so we had new arguments we had to fight against. But, uh, yeah, it was an incredible, uh, human adventure, I would say, uh, all the scientists, engineers, industry, uh, pushing for this mission and, um, um, yeah, I can't believe we made it.

[00:36:26] Markus: Fantastic. So, so tell me, how was that, that, uh, ministerial in 2020. So you were again in the same room waiting for the ministers to chip in their money.

[00:36:37] How 

[00:36:37] Ian: correct? Um, so they were traumatized Yes. Um, I can tell you, I was, I was literally shaking. 

[00:36:47] My hands 

[00:36:47] were shaking in the meeting. I was, I was extremely nervous.

[00:36:52] Um, and, um, um, I remember the, the feeling of the first,

[00:37:02] calls for funding, which was completely opposite to what they lived. Um, in, in 16, every country started to put more money than I actually asked for. And, uh, I could not believe it. I was like, wow, this is even more than I asked. And at the end of the first day, we had what we would say an oversubscribed project.

[00:37:28] So 

[00:37:29] I was calling everybody, but I wanted to, you know, after what I lived in 16, I was extremely cautious because I, I feared that some, at some point countries would realize and move the money away and put it somewhere else. And then, you know, again, below, but now in this case, money. Funding kept coming and, uh, we ended up oversubscribed.

[00:37:53] So, um, I was, I was shaking [00:38:00] and, uh, I was in a, in a, in a listening room and I left the room and I went to a window and I started crying again, uh, this time for joy,

[00:38:11] Markus: Yes.

[00:38:11] Ian: joy and scare because, um, uh, I was, uh, I felt the pressure now

[00:38:19] Hmm. Uh, there are many things, uh, many things that Okay. Um, I haven't mentioned.

[00:38:25] But, uh, the fact that we were proposing a space mission to be implemented in four years is something that nobody ever done before. And Mr. Canelli had never, uh, managed the mission before. So how can you have somebody who has never managed the mission to do it in less time than anybody would do, uh, to do planetary defenses?

[00:38:45] Something like. Hardly anybody believed, uh, we would make it. So I, I totally felt the pressure of delivering and, and, and, uh, proving that it could be done. Um, but that's the second episode. Uh, that moment I felt the pressure, but also the joy. And I start calling Patrick and all the others, all the scientists, all my My team at the time, by then I became the project manager myself and, um, and it was a huge amount of joy. Unbelievable. And, uh, we're all hugging and cheering and partying for days, uh, until my, my, my boss came to, so came to the party and say, okay, now that you got the funding, We need all the legal documents, all the procurement documents on the table in two weeks. If you want to make the mission and we're like starting to realize what we got ourselves into.

[00:39:44] Um, and that's when all my hair turned white in three years. Uh, it was a huge amount of work, huge amount of work, but the excitement of having the funding and [00:40:00] the funding. And to be frank, we also were comfortable, more comfortable when we thought, uh, about the funding, we could, uh, we could take more shortcuts, thanks to that, helped us to, to, to move forward.

[00:40:13] Um, and, uh, industry shared, uh, our passion. And, uh, here we are building the space, actually we're in right now testing, final testing of the satellite before launch.

[00:40:25] Markus: That's, this is so fascinating. So after, after that great victory, so you had the money, you were overfunded.

[00:40:33] Then you had your boss. call the shots, so to say. Then the assembly of a team, the assembly of industry partners, the assembly of the constituents of that mission started to be happening. So what, what walk us through the stepping stones to where we are right now? What were the challenges on 

[00:40:56] Ian: Oh, wow. Okay. So 

[00:40:58] Markus: maybe there weren't any. Ah,

[00:40:59] Ian: everything went different from what I expected, of course. Um, there are a lot of personal things, uh, also in the story. Um, first, first and foremost is that, uh, knowing my limitations, I never planned for me to be the project manager of the mission itself.

[00:41:22] Uh, to be credible, I Uh, I believe I needed somebody with the right experience and the right 

[00:41:29] Markus: Mm. 

[00:41:30] Ian: to lead such a project. And somebody who had done other satellites before proving and, and, and I've done them in a, in a bit of, um, let's say, uh, innovative way, um,

[00:41:45] with

[00:41:45] the right dose of pragmatism and focus, um,

[00:41:50] That are needed for a mission in like this and unfortunately this person, uh, that I worked through, uh, with, uh, for the [00:42:00] preparation of the AIM, Asteroid Impact Mission, and HERA,

[00:42:03] was no longer, um, in a position to, to manage.

[00:42:08] So he was the person I I counted on to leave the mission and he was, uh, unfortunately, uh, not available. So, um, my boss turned to me and said, look, you know, you wanted the mission,

[00:42:25] Markus: You got You

[00:42:27] Ian: got the mission and, um, now you have to make it. And the main reason being that, um, I was the one who knew, uh, most of the details and

[00:42:40] all

[00:42:41] the pieces of the puzzle that I had agreed with the various countries.

[00:42:45] So when you, when you plan a mission like this, every country puts funding, knowing which industry will be joining the project and providing which piece of equipment. And this was part of the Let's say the deals before the ministerial and now we had to implement them and to implement it means you need to negotiate.

[00:43:06] So I was the one knowing all the pieces of the puzzle and therefore I, and of course I felt the responsibility of doing it. So uh, I, uh, I took the leadership at the time I still had two jobs because I was formally doing something else, which is preparing future missions for the, for the agency. So AIM and HERA were a bit of a side job for me, uh, but then I left my, my, my, my real job and, and then worked full time on, on HERA.

[00:43:43] So that was the first big change for me in a job I never done before. Uh, so for me, it was total uncharted territory. Uh, the second thing was to, and, and together with that, uh, forming the core team that would [00:44:00] support, uh, the project, not support me because I always told them that I'm part of the team. I'm not, uh, I'm just one of them.

[00:44:09] Um, so they're not working for me. We're working together for the mission and for ESA and for Europe. Um, and, and my management style has always been very, very, uh, let's say, uh, transparent and, uh, team, team player. Uh, I'm not micromanaging. I needed to trust my team and I told them straight away. I knew nothing about mission implementation, so I counted on them, uh, to, uh, to lead me through it.

[00:44:38] Uh, of course, I would take my responsibility and I would be the one finally, you know, be responsible for it, uh, in case things went bananas. But, uh, all of them had all the freedom to, to, to, to work.

[00:44:52] Markus: When I visited your office, um, at Aztec in the Netherlands, it was very clear to me that you're a team player because your desk is just one of many desks among your team in one room. So you don't have a special place.

[00:45:09] Ian: No, actually, I tried to take the worst place myself, uh, far away from windows because I wanted to, to show that, um,

[00:45:20] It's not because I'm the project manager that I deserve different treatment, and I'm really part of the team, and we are all part. But I pretend the same from the others, so we all have to rely.

[00:45:33] on each other competences to, to make a mission like this happen. Uh, so there is no one, uh, better than the others.

[00:45:42] Markus: So it's all for the mission. 

[00:45:44] Ian: is all for the mission. It is for all for the mission. And of course, I'm not naive enough to say that we don't take, let's say, personal, uh, benefit from a successful project.

[00:45:56] Uh, because of course, if you're successful, you [00:46:00] become, um, successful. a model for others, but it, it, it really, for me, the motivation was to prove that ESA can do things in new ways,

[00:46:10] in

[00:46:10] different ways. Um, and that, uh, new space, what is called new space is not only about startups that have big dreams and little experience, but, uh, is about Doing things, uh, we know to do in the best possible way, meaning we don't need to micromanage industry.

[00:46:31] We don't need to, um, uh, tell everybody exactly what to do. We need to trust each other and focus on the important things.

[00:46:40] Markus: you would, you would go select an industry partner and trust once the selection has been made, you trust in their ability. So you wouldn't interfere with whatever they are doing on a daily basis. Is, is that the 

[00:46:54] Ian: It's not exactly like that. It's, uh, instead of micromanaging

[00:46:58] everything,

[00:46:59] which is, uh, or managing every single aspect of the mission, which is typically what we do is to, is to look at what they do best and what they do worse and what they do best. We let them do it and what they're do worse than we, we work with them.

[00:47:16] And it's not even micromanaged. It's not even. I always say we are not managing, we are working together. So, uh, I, we're bringing ESA experience, ESA expertise. to help industry and work together, uh, to achieve, uh, the objectives is not to tell them how they should do it, but we do it 

[00:47:39] together. 

[00:47:40] Uh, this I think has shocked the industry in the beginning, because normally industry sees us as a customer.

[00:47:47] So, uh, normally they don't even want to show you everything they do. They say, okay, we have gate reviews. We go to the right reviews. And we show you how we have progressed, what we have done, etc. [00:48:00] But we, you don't have to mingle too much in what we do. And I try to break this because in the, in the short amount of time we had, we could not afford the typical gate reviews and things.

[00:48:14] So I said, no, I want to be part of the team. I want to work together so that when we do the formal reviews, I already know I don't need to go through the thousand documents and, and try to find the errors and maybe correct. I want to To get there in the best possible way. So we need to work together. And there were areas where, uh, industry is, is, is very experienced and they don't need our guidance.

[00:48:39] There are areas where industry was the first time they were doing things. And we brought experience for, for example, from the Rosetta mission, other missions in ESA, uh, that, um, could help us move forward. So the spirit has always been. Let's put on the table, both in, in, in the ESA team, and then we spread a little bit this philosophy with the industrial consortium.

[00:49:04] Let's put on the table what we know, what we don't know and, uh, and, and use this collective knowledge to fill in the gaps, uh, the best 

[00:49:13] possible way. So my first speech to my team was, look guys, you all know, I've never done this before. So don't count on me to tell you what you, how to do it. But you can't, you can't count on me to help you work in the best possible way.

[00:49:30] So I always strive to give my team the best conditions to work the best environment, uh, to help them, uh, with industry when industry was not going in the direction they were expecting or they wanted, um, but, uh, and okay. When difficult decisions were to be taken. I took responsibility for it, of course, but I always ask them, uh, you know, for, for their solution or for, [00:50:00] um, for, for their, their view on things and, uh, and, and that worked.

[00:50:06] That worked well.

[00:50:07] Markus: What were the most challenges and challenging setbacks and how did you overcome them?

[00:50:14] Ian: Oh, how much time do you have? So we have, uh, we have a dashboard in our meeting room, uh, called the shit list and, uh, and where we put only, uh, let's say the top ones. And I think we're at something like 38 is 40.

[00:50:33] If I'm not, if I'm not mistaken, like this week,

[00:50:36] Markus: 40 

[00:50:37] Ian: 40 problems. But the big ones, um, one actually is not there. Uh, the very first one is, uh, that we, um, So we, we, we released the invitation to tender to industry, uh, for, to, to bid for the mission. And, uh, of course we had built all the financials on discussions with the industry to, uh, to figure out how much equipment would work, uh, would cost and then the, all the engineering needed.

[00:51:09] And so you do have financial plan and that's how we define how much funding we needed, uh, the ministerial. And, uh, and we expected that proposal for, uh, a certain amount. And we received a proposal which was 50 percent higher

[00:51:29] Markus: Higher

[00:51:30] even 

[00:51:31] Ian: let's say the, the

[00:51:32] oversubscription

[00:51:33] was not even close 

[00:51:34] enough to what we needed.

[00:51:37] And that's like,

[00:51:39] you know, that was a hard moment because it's like, you always know that there would be a little bit more

[00:51:44] and

[00:51:44] you would have to negotiate. Sure. I was not

[00:51:47] naive. I was too much, 

[00:51:48] But that was like, that's way, way more than I expected. To the point that I honestly thought, okay, this is it. There's no way.

[00:51:59] Markus: [00:52:00] Is there an option to go to a different player, a different industry, or is the industry so selected there is just one?

[00:52:06] Ian: Normally you have a competition indeed. In this particular case, we have done the competition before. So it was implemented also because we had only four years to do the mission that the selection had been done before. So we were in a, in a specific case that we call direct negotiation. And we were in direct negotiation with, uh,

[00:52:30] The, the

[00:52:31] the the industry leader and what we call the core team. So a group of industries, then we still had to select a

[00:52:38] lot more, but

[00:52:39] let's say the core team is what was part of the initial negotiations.

[00:52:45] And that lasted, I think a month and a half. And I remember nights and nights and nights with Paolo Martino, my system engineer, trying to figure out how to scratch every single euro. Uh, from this contract. And, uh, and eventually we had to, so okay, eventually we had to escalate it to our director and the CEO of the company to make, uh, make a deal.

[00:53:12] But it was really the first big surprise because after all we went through, the two ministerials, I was counting

[00:53:19] on industry, I had the money, I was counting on, on, on industry to be on our side and, and start as soon as possible, not to spend months and months in negotiations. So that was, I would say the very first, uh, disappointment and we were burning time.

[00:53:36] I mean, we had a contract ongoing. But we were burning time. So I was super stressed at that moment.

[00:53:43] That

[00:53:43] was the first setback. So then we finally signed the contract in September, 2020. That was a very special moment to have a fantastic picture. I look at sometimes, uh, also to remind me how naive we were at the time thinking that after [00:54:00] contract signature, everything would go by the book, right?

[00:54:03] And, uh, we were still in the happy days. I mean, it, it was a happy project, but, uh, a lot of things happened after that. And, uh, so we signed the contract in September, and then in January it was, uh, COVID, lockdown So I had literally saw and met with my counterpart in industry, the project manager in industry only once during negotiations, which is probably not the most.

[00:54:29] Uh, pleasant meeting you can, you can have with your, the counterpart, you have to work for the next four years. And then we never met again for over a year. So all the sub negotiations, all the work had been done remotely and, uh, that was also pretty tough. Uh, how do you build a relationship? Uh, trust, how do you build a team, a team spirit

[00:54:55] Markus: meeting? 

[00:54:56] Ian: without ever meeting?

[00:54:58] And I was pushing everybody to sure use mask and everything, but still try to have meetings and that was not possible. So that was super tough, especially because in my mind for years, I always thought, okay, once. We have the funding and if we ever launch the mission, what I really want is to enjoy teamwork, right?

[00:55:22] And then all of this fell apart. There was no, no way to, to, to, to work together as a team. So I started to organize, um, online, uh, seminars about asteroids with the scientists. to engage a little bit, uh, the industrial team. And, uh, that proved to be well, uh, uh, received from everybody and, uh, successful.

[00:55:51] Every month we had a lunch lecture from one of the scientists so that engineers could be exposed to what asteroids are. Why are we doing this mission? [00:56:00] Why are we trying to do it in four years? And so on and so forth. And, um, so that was, that was one part of the story. And then from then we started to manufacture equipment.

[00:56:10] And, and I think everything that could have gone wrong went wrong, starting from the fact that the electronic components were lacking, uh, because of COVID. So things that you had planned would take a few months, uh, to be, to be shipped started to take six months, a year. Uh, and then we received components that were really bad quality.

[00:56:35] I remember the first time receiving An optocoupler that had human air inside, glued inside. And I

[00:56:44] Markus: That's totally space ready.

[00:56:46] Ian: Yeah, exactly. But the funniest was, I think the funniest component was, um There was somebody soldering, hand soldering a very expensive microprocessor on a board. It's, uh, one component alone costs, I think, 150, 000 euros, uh, because it's radiation hardened and so on and so forth.

[00:57:12] So imagine the operator as the board with all the components, and this is the last bit you need to put in. And he's about to solder the component. And then when he, he has it in his hand and then looks at it to double check, there's all procedures, check the code, then he sees, you know, a print saying, uh, dummy for exhibition

[00:57:36] only.

[00:57:38] So the company had made a mistake and, and shipped a component that was, you know, those you put on a table in, in the, in fairs and exhibitions for promotional.

[00:57:53] So that's, um, that's one of the, but we had so many, we had so many, we had, um,[00:58:00]

[00:58:00] Lots of setbacks, we had components breaking, we had, um, uh, operators, uh, that, uh, made mistakes. And, uh, one, one of the earliest was a piece of the satellite, a structural element we call the central tube. Uh, it's made, uh, custom made, of course, in, in carbon fiber.

[00:58:21] It's actually the element that holds all the, uh, uh, uh, all the, uh, weight and effort in the, in the satellite during launch. I won't tell you the cost, but it's a very expensive piece of equipment. And it was also a long lead item. This is the first is the backbone of the satellite. The first thing you need and, and everything else.

[00:58:45] Needs this element to, to continue. And we were a bit late. Uh, anyway, the, the, the component is built and, uh, we need to test it. And the last test is a static load test. So you have a, you have the tube, you put a huge mass on top, and you have to, to, to check that everything that it doesn't break. And to do that, you, you glue sensors on this, on this tube and the operator.

[00:59:13] Was not experienced and also because of Covid was alone. So he was sending, uh, the, send the, the tube to, to, to glue the sensors. And he sending it so much that it started to break the carbon fiber layers in 18 different places of the central tube.

[00:59:33] Markus: Okay, how do I tell my boss? 

[00:59:35] Ian: until somebody found out and stopped the guy?

[00:59:38] But the damage was done and it took I think it took over a year to design and manufacture this piece and I Well, I remember it was a Friday when we were called for a meeting to discuss the problem I was like, okay, this this is the mission is done. Yeah, it cannot you know, and I was I cannot believe it [01:00:00] After all these years of effort, now it's because somebody mistakenly, you know, send it, uh, a piece too much and, and broke everything.

[01:00:11] Lot of sleepless, sleepless night. And, uh, during that meeting, um, yeah, we started to discuss all kinds of different solutions and I started to think, okay, what's What if we start remanufacturing? How long it would take? And all those snowball effects. So that was the first setback, and fortunately it could be repaired, but it was crazy.

[01:00:37] So we literally had to create molds to manufacture layers and glue them on these spots. And when I thought that, okay, the solution seems pretty straightforward, it was pretty straightforward. Then we realized that the inside of the, of the tube is where you had to, uh, actually put the tanks and the tanks only had two millimeter distance from, from the, from the side of the tank and the, and the tube. And the, so the patch to, to fix the central tube had to be smaller than two millimeters, first of all, but even so there were some, some parts that would not actually go through. So anyway, we had to find a procedure where you would lower the tank, then turn it a little bit lower down, turn again, and I mean, it was a mess, but fortunately it kind of worked out.

[01:01:32] I mean, it worked out. But it took weeks and weeks to, to find a solution and the whole procedure and many things. And that was just the start. So we had equipment that broke during manufacturing. We had the operator using, uh, wrong parts, uh, instead. So using ground, uh, uh, components rather than flight components.

[01:01:56] Uh, we had equipment that got lost during shipping. We [01:02:00] uh, we had, uh,

[01:02:04] all sorts of stories and, uh, uh, and then of course, last but not least, uh, Ukraine war

[01:02:11] also, uh, kicked in. So we, we lost, uh, our launcher, which was a, a Soyuz at the time. Um, and the Ariane six at the delays, um, we had, uh, so we had to go with, uh, with

[01:02:29] uh, we had the company's burned down.

[01:02:31] Uh, we had, um, our boards be manufactured when a fire started in the company and everything got destroyed.

[01:02:40] Markus: Hmm.

[01:02:40] Ian: Um, and I, and, and we had literally to, uh, to go to other suppliers that of course, um, were overloaded. So I had to negotiate with all my colleagues who were, uh, managing other ESA missions to, to jump the queue and be in front, uh, with lots of stories.

[01:03:02] So, and last but not least, uh, Uh, a part that broke very recently, uh, during testing, and we had to dismount the satellite, uh,

[01:03:13] that was an easy thing. 

[01:03:14] easy thing. Which is an easy thing, so you have to imagine that there's very little room inside the satellite. And I must say we have fantastic mechanics, uh, in, in industry who were able to, to literally sneak themselves inside the satellite without touching everything, anything and removing just the equipment that needed to be fixed.

[01:03:35] Markus: Because the problem is if you had to disassemble the satellite, you would have to go through the entire testing 

[01:03:44] Ian: Exactly. from the 

[01:03:45] beginning, which is not possible.

[01:03:47] It's not possible. But also there are parts you cannot disassemble once they're assembled. Uh, so it's, it's, it's very tricky, especially when the satellite is finished.

[01:03:59] It, it can [01:04:00] be very, very tricky. For example, there's one equipment that now we know it's underperforming. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, at low temperatures and one would say, okay, we, we just swapped a unit, but in reality it's behind the tank. So to get there, you would have to dismount the tank and this, it's impossible. So you have to find other solutions like adding a, uh, in this particular case, we're going to add a thermistors to keep it warm.

[01:04:28] Um, but okay, this is, I guess this is more normal to every, every project, but things like COVID or fires or accidents or people leaving, this is also something I had not thought about, uh, before I would imagine that once you're engaged in, in a super fast and super exciting mission, um, people, especially in the core team will stay, you know, until launch, uh, whereas people have.

[01:04:57] Different objectives, they, uh, they move to another project and all of a sudden you lose somebody who is expert in a certain domain and is key to the

[01:05:06] project.

[01:05:08] Uh, this happened unfortunately too many 

[01:05:12] times and finding ways

[01:05:15] to to, to substitute and to co op. So the human resources are really the resource that make it happen.

[01:05:22] Markus: Now, hearing all this is next to unbelievable that you are getting ready for launch.

[01:05:27] Ian: Yes, we are still limping a bit, a bit more than we would like to, but I think in such a short time is, is, uh, is what we could achieve. Um, but yes, it's unbelievable. And, and to the point that many are asking us. Uh, in disbelief, uh, how we could do it.

[01:05:49] Of course, we took a lot of shortcuts, uh, but I think, uh, if there is one thing is, is people engagement. Uh, [01:06:00] the ones, uh, working in the core team gave their sold to this project. Uh, weekends. We are funny WhatsApp chats where wives are complaining about, uh, wives and husbands complaining about, uh, working during holidays.

[01:06:21] I get pictures of people at 3000 meters with a laptop, uh, working from a hut during a hike. Um, and that shows just the commitment and the passion that we all put into this project. 

[01:06:34] Markus: In

[01:06:36] times of artificial intelligence, you are still relying on very analog methods to keep track of everything. Is that right?

[01:06:45] Someone told me. If you lost your black notebook, that would be the end of the mission. Is that right? Do you have it on you?

[01:06:53] Ian: I wouldn't be so dramatic, but yes, I do. I always have it with me,

[01:06:57] Markus: So tell no matter where I go. But this is, uh, this is a black notebook. I have a few actually now through the project. I have a collection, but even more so post its, uh, post its everywhere.

[01:07:10] Ian: This is my short term memory. Um, I always believe that, uh, you know, uh, by writing things, uh, they stick a lot more in my head than, than typing them. I know it's a little bit anachronistic, but even worse than this, my calendar is a, is a paper calendar where I can see the full year in one view and I can write and cancel my most important milestones and meetings on that.

[01:07:38] But, uh, yeah, this is where I go back, uh, to find out what decisions we made and why, and, uh, critical areas of the project.

[01:07:48] Markus: Wonderful. 

[01:07:49] Ian: Ian 

[01:07:50] Markus: Ian Carnelli, that was a tour de force through your world. All the best for the launch, late October it is, and [01:08:00] for the mission.

[01:08:00] Ian: Thank you so much. Markus. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

[01:08:04] Markus: Hey, it was cool. Thanks. Thanks. 

[01:08:10]

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