043 A Life-Changing Betrayal and Journey back from a Meltdown

In this episode, we chat with a betrayal recovery expert, Vanessa Cardenas, who opens up about her breakdown when one fateful day, she had a heartbreaking conversation that left her betrayed and torn. As Vanessa recounts her story, she reveals the gradual process of reclaiming her sense of self-worth and rebuilding trust in herself and others. Through her own journey, she discovered powerful tools for cultivating self-love and protecting one's heart from further harm. From mindfulness practices to boundary-setting techniques, Vanessa provides invaluable insights and practical strategies for listeners navigating their own paths of betrayal and forgiveness.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

my whole world shattered. In an instant, I fell into a zillion pieces. And then I turned into the worst Karen ever.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hi guys, it's Jenica. I'm back with a new episode. Today I interview Vanessa Cardenas. She's a betrayal recovery expert. She talks about her own experience with betrayal where her own husband, her partner, the love of her life betrayed her. She had an absolute meltdown during this process and then she talks about the healing thereafter. Today she guides and coaches individuals that may be experiencing betrayal and we talk not only about the ways that she helps other people, she gives real amazing useful tips as to what we can do to love and respect ourselves. We talk about betrayal in the family. We talk about self-betrayal. I know I'm going to be taking away a lot of this and I'm going to be putting a lot of these things into practice. I hope you enjoy this episode and you can take away something amazing. Vanessa. Welcome to Multispective. I'm so excited to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Thank you so much. I look so forward to our conversation. Your episodes, oh, they're so impactful. They're so necessary. And so many of them are on such taboo topics. So today, we're touching on something else that's taboo. And I'm so looking forward to jumping into this with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yeah, me too. What I really love about this topic that we're going to be uncovering today is something that anyone and everyone listening can relate to, to an extent. And sometimes it's one of those things that we experience, but maybe are not consciously aware of it. And so I feel like there's going to be a lot of really useful tools that we'll be uncovering today to help listeners. And I'm definitely going to be pushing it out to even some of the guests that were featured on my podcast as well, because they will also maybe be able to connect some dots in their own journey as well. So I love it because it is so widespread. It is relatable to everyone and anyone, yet it is just not talked about enough.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Oh, so true. So, so true. And it's a shameful topic, brings about a lot of shame and a lot of guilt on many different facets and many different levels. So

SPEAKER_00 2:34

we're going to get into it. For sure. Would you say that you Your experience is what kind of inspired you to start and tell the listeners as well what it is that you do. And do you think that your personal experience is what inspired you to start researching and becoming an expert in the field?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Without a doubt. So I am Vanessa Cardenas, and I am a betrayal recovery specialist. And no one studies betrayal recovery unless you've gone through it. And that's what happened with me. I had the epic love story. I had met my future husband in Middle school, we met in middle school, fell madly, deeply, fully in love. Yes, first love. It was glorious. It was intoxicating. And then we broke up because that's what teenagers do. And my husband continued to pursue me for eight years. Not stalkerish, but he became my best friend. He was always there. He was my teddy bear. He was absolutely in the friend zone, without a doubt. And then what happened was he reached out to me. And he says, Vanessa, you need to know that this is a date. And I was like, a date? I don't want a date. I just want my friend. And he says, no, this is going to be a date. I'm going to take you out. And he showed up handsome as ever. We had the glorious time. And nine weeks later, we were married, much to the horror of our families. All the rumor mill, ooh, she's pregnant. Ooh, they had to get married. All those situations. But no, we fell madly deeply in love. fully intoxication love. And we were married for decades. Children, houses, money in the bank, cars, everything else. I checked off all the boxes. I was inoculated from anything terrible happening. I had found the love of my life and I was so fortunate and I was so cool until that one fateful day. We were walking through Central Park. The crispness in the air, people watching. I just, I loved the moment. And my husband said to me, Vanessa, you know, let's sit down. We sat down on a park bench and he was trying to get my attention. He says, Vanessa, there's something I need to tell you. And I turned to look at him and it was in slow motion. I've met someone. My, my whole world shattered in an instant. I fell, I fell into a zillion pieces. And then I turned into the worst Karen ever. The fact that I was not arrested in central park is beyond me. I, because I was so so hurt. Everything from within me just cracked open and I fell into that cesspool of, I was a shell of myself. I was on autopilot for days, weeks, months thereafter. Yes. So when you experience betrayal, whether it's on a small scale, there are small ones, they're little cuts, they're little paper cuts or substantial ones where you're stabbed a zillion times, cuts by a thousand paper cuts. Yeah. You definitely, when you're ready, and it took me a while to be ready. And you have to remember for me, I had a psychology degree. I should be able to get through this. Oh no, it took a long time, but there was a pinnacle moment. And I'll share that with you and your audience as we dive into this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Oh my God. I have so many questions. Firstly, that is just, I just like, oh my God, I can't imagine like you, you know, So your child, like this person you've known since childhood, like they become family. So, so like, I don't know, it's, you know, they say that, you know, the closest people to you are the ones that hurt you the most. And I don't know whether that's because they hurt you the most or because they just affect us the most, right? Like we are the ones that are mostly affected by that. But I can imagine like this person was literally home for you. He was your comfort. But looking back, did you feel like you could see it, see it coming in any way? Were there any signs before that leading up to that? None that I

SPEAKER_01 6:43

saw. And at the time, that's why it affected me as great as it did. I didn't see anything. There were no red flags for me. But we had been married for so long, and we became complacent with each other. And we found ourselves micromanaging our household. And that was our interactions with each other. Yes, Yes, there was still love there. But what was missing that I didn't recognize was that he had different types of needs now. And I want to be cautious when I say that, because most women then jump all over me and say, well, wait a second, you know, his sexual needs and this and that. No, no, no, no, no. What it turned out to be, and it was only until we went through counseling that I discovered this. He said those three words to me, I've met someone. And in my particular case, it was his cry for help. It was his cry that, wait a second, I have another woman paying attention to me. She's caretaking my confidence. She's making me feel good, but I don't want her. I want you. I want you to do this for me. And that's why I told you I've met someone and I was hoping to be able to get out a few more words before you fell apart. But you What happened was because I raged on him that fatal day, he shut down. He turtled in. He didn't want to say anything more at all because he did not anticipate that reaction. He anticipated me fighting for him and fighting for us. And what can I do? And how can I make this better? And I didn't do any of that. I withdrew and fell into myself. What did I do wrong? Am I not enough? Am I too much? Did I say the wrong thing? Have I said the wrong thing? Do I nag too much? I went through the whole scenario in my head of all the things that I did to cause this because I took on the blame and the shame. And what I didn't realize at the time, and it was going through all of that therapy, all of that counseling, all of that learning to realize that though something terrible has happened to me, wasn't about me. It actually wasn't about me. No, he didn't say that. He said, I've met someone. And in my head, instantaneously, the movie went through my head. I'm divorced. I'm 20 years older. He's happily married. He has new kids, new car, new house, new this, new that. In a split second, I had that. going on. Me being completely alone, all by myself, 100 cats, no offense to cats, you know, type of thing. But I immediately went there, immediately went there. And it caused him to shut down. And that delayed our healing. Because I just I couldn't see beyond myself.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Oh, man, it's just it's like the choice of words were a bit poor, though. And those I feel like, you know, I think this is like an innate human thing, right? We will we are And I think there is a very, very deep sense of knowing that we are always alone at the end of the day. Everything else is impermanent. And so it's very natural for us to go into that survival mode, that instinctive, like, I have to protect myself, like, you know, if I'm being threatened. And yes, even though over the years, you'd built this togetherness, that, you know, it's this, you know, being slammed with a sentence like that. It's just this immediate reminder. It is still me against you and it's always going to be me against the world. And for a while it was us against the world and maybe we have fooled ourselves into thinking that, but it is me and I have to protect myself first. It's kind of like what they say on an airplane, right? That, you know, put a mask on yourself before your own child and you're thinking, this is my baby. I have to protect my baby first. But in the absolute utmost base cardinal situation, we do have to protect ourselves. it's almost like that's what you were experiencing in that moment. The sense of like a disconnect from this partner. And now it's all of a sudden it's me against you. So yes, looking back, I see, but I also understand the other side of like, you know, the way that you reacted to it or responded to it. But

SPEAKER_01 11:25

yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and that's, that's the key word. I reacted. I didn't respond. I didn't pause. I didn't wait for the rest of it because in my mind, Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. that at the time. Oh no, I couldn't understand that at all. And I felt so alone and I was so full of shame, so full of shame. Here I was, you know, we were married longer than any of our friends. We had the epic love story on the outside and here we are. I'm a shell of myself and my husband is a turtle now. He's withdrawn. He's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe what I've just done to my marriage at all. And he did most of the heavy lifting in those first few months to stay together because yes, did his clothes wind up on the front yard? Yes. You know, did, were the locks changed? Yes. That was out of anger. I was so angry that at myself that I didn't see it, that I didn't see this coming, that there was something flawed with me. And again, I took it all on. I took it all on as if it was my fault.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Would you liken that one day, the day that he said this to you, would you liken your reaction to it as somewhat of a panic attack?

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Could be. It could absolutely be. I felt an out-of-body experience as though I was watching it from above and kind of seeing everything happen and all very vivid colors and seeing it all because I wanted to remember every single moment and I felt like I wasn't just because I was out-of-body. And it was very, very prominent that the racing of emotions through my body was overwhelming it just it absolutely was because again i didn't see it coming it's like a bad car accident that you get hit from behind you don't see it coming you don't even look in the rearview mirror to see the semi plowing down on you and suddenly you know your car's spinning all the way around and you're just like oh my gosh what's happening what is actually happening

SPEAKER_00 15:14

yeah and it and it sounds like to to an extent um We can, I mean, when you were talking about the way that your body and your mind were reacting to this, and even the days after that, it sounded like there was a bit of a grieving process happening there. It was

SPEAKER_02 15:30

like

SPEAKER_00 15:31

grieving the end or the loss of a relationship in a way. And yeah,

SPEAKER_01 15:39

very, very much. Yeah, similar. still right there. And that's the difference is I still get to rage at him. I still get to see him. And it's almost like when you love something so much, that hate, oh, that hate can be just as severe as that passionate love that you have as well. And that's why the pendulum just, oh yeah, it swung the other way. And I felt so much rage through me. And again, some of it was directed at him, but a lot of it was self-directed. I tore myself apart. I look in the mirror and I see myself 20 years older than I was. And I just, I picked myself apart and the nasty chick voice on my shoulder. Oh, she was relentless with me. How could you not see it? How could you not see this? What's wrong with you? You're so focused on your career and being a mother and being everything to everyone else. You lost sight of your marriage. You took it for granted. And I, oh my gosh, I beat myself up over it relentlessly. And no, you're not supposed to do that. But we do it. It's natural. We absolutely fall into that where we self-blame and we lose sight of ourselves in the whole process.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Let me ask you this. Do you think that if this same conversation happened earlier on in your relationship, say pre-kids or when your you would have responded or reacted differently? I

SPEAKER_01 17:22

love the question. I love the question. Yes. I'm going to say yes. I think I would have been more naive and saying, I have so much more time ahead of me. You're out the door. I want this relationship over because I can start over. And I think my fear took over of, wait a second, I'm going to be alone. And again, that movie that went in through my mind immediately. He was remarried. He had more kids. He had this. He had this. He had this. And I was alone. And that fear gripped me. Not that I was hanging on for dear life. I don't want to say that. It wasn't like in Star Wars where your grip is so tight that everything falls through it. No, no, no, no, no. Because I still had my integrity. I still had my sense of who I was. I wasn't hanging on to my marriage for that reason. And in a sense, I wasn't actually hanging on. It was my husband that was hanging on. He was doing the heavy lifting because he didn't want me to get to that point where I would be like, you know what? We got to part ways because he knew it wasn't just the nucleus. It just wasn't the two of us. It was our children. It was our families. It was our jobs. It was everything else. But at the core of it, at the core was the love, that there was love. It had been dumped There was a lot of crap dumped on top of it, but if we could move it out of the way and get back to that intoxication, that love, that initial love, those butterflies in your stomach, the way you feel when you look into your partner's eyes and you see that reflection back and you see that beauty in the reflection back, because that's what you are. You're absolutely beautiful and unique. And I found that, that absolutely After that revelation and after that day, I couldn't even look at my husband because I didn't even want to see my reflection in his eyes because I was so full of shame. I took on that shame completely unnecessarily. And that's what I needed to work through. So

SPEAKER_00 19:34

how long did it take you for you to be open to actually healing from that, working on it, like genuinely open to that as opposed to sort of running the motions?

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah. I made a colossal mistake. I thought I could do it myself. I had a psychology degree. I was a perpetual student. I'd just read a couple of books and I'd be okay. Yeah, no, it didn't work like that. And I found myself in just so much pain. I was always in so much pain and I was in such a shell. And we would go to our individual counselors. We would go to our marriage counselor. And I remember distinctly screaming, screaming, not at my husband, but at our a counselor and saying, there has got to be a reason why I'm going through this. There has got to be a reason why I'm in so much pain. And I couldn't understand how it wasn't presenting itself until one fateful day. And I remember it so distinctly. I was laying on my bedroom floor and I was ugly crying. Oh my gosh, I was ugly mascara, the whole nine yards, snot dripping down my face. I just, I was in so much pain. And I just, I turned to God's source spirit and said, please, I need a reprieve. I need a reprieve from this. And I promise, promise that I will help somebody else through this. I don't want anybody else to feel this way ever. And if I can help them through this, I promise that I will do so if you could give me a reprieve. And the next day I woke up after sleeping. You don't sleep after betrayal. Your mind is racing just 24 seven. I woke up and I felt a little better. And I was a little, I was a little surprised. And then the next day, a little better than that. And then the third day, I got the shove, the shove promised. And that's when I dove into recovery. That's when I decided, you know what? I need to speak to a specialist on betrayal, specifically betrayal. Yes, marriage counselors can talk to you about your relationship and everything else, but betrayal takes on a whole different set of circumstances and a whole different set of digging through your past with a therapist and then working with a coach on your present and your future. So gratefully, we had a lot of help and we had a lot of support. And as I mentioned, my husband did a lot of the heavy lifting. He absolutely did. And I was fortunate. And I can say that in one week, a week from today, we will be celebrating our 34th wedding anniversary.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

We made it through. We made it through to the other side. It's hard work. I'll let you know that right now. It's probably the most difficult work you have to go through other than the loss. It's right up there as the top four or five things that a marriage gets rocked by. Betrayal is definitely one of them. And it takes a lot of strength to get through to the other side. But it depends on the foundation. And our foundation was a deep love for each other. And I was fortunate. I was very, very fortunate that, as I mentioned, it turned out that Right, yeah. wow, okay, now we need to get serious about lots of different things. First and foremost, our health, but definitely our relationships and finances and everything else. We really start to focus on what else is there. And some look to the grass being greener on the other side. And some look at, wow, all that I have, I'm very, very fortunate.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Right. And do you feel like there was a little bit of that misalignment in that aspect between you and him? Because he was, He was processing it in a different way and it sort of, yeah, just came at you in a ton of bricks. I'm also interested to know sort of like what are the changes that the both of you made thereafter? So you said attention. How did that work? What did you do to give him that kind of attention that he was asking for?

SPEAKER_01 24:49

I have a great example. Yes. Ladies, pay attention to this one because this one, I think once I get through this story, you'll wink and understand. So my husband's never worn red. He's never worn red. He's a gray, blue, black t-shirt kind of guy, you know. So he and my daughter are following Manchester United, and their colors are red and yellow. So my daughter, being a fan, bought him a red jersey, and they wear it on game day. And if you follow soccer in the US, it's on at different times, anytime, first thing in the It's all over the place because of course they're watching it wherever it's being played. So I happened to come home from work one day and they're sitting on the couch and they're both wearing their jerseys. And I, again, I had known my husband for so long. I'd never seen him in red. He was wearing red. And I just, I made an offhanded comment. Didn't even think about it. I said, wow, you look really good in red. It really brings out your biceps and your shoulders and it brings Yeah, yeah. and again. So suddenly he's wearing lots of red t-shirts because I said that. And women, we do it too. Doesn't it feel good when your husband notices you got a haircut? Doesn't it feel good when you get dressed to go to an event and he comments on it? Wow, that looks beautiful on you. Don't we almost crave that, that we want them to notice? Sometimes they do notice, they just don't use their words to actually say it out loud. And for me and my husband, It got to the point where we needed to communicate. If you're thinking, say it, say it out of your mouth. I want to hear it. And my husband was like, we've been married, you know, over 30 years. Well, you know, you know that I love you. And I'm like, I know, but I want you to say it. You know, he goes, he'll say things that he won't say things. And I'll, I'll be like, I feel really good. I bought this new dress. And then, then, then he catches himself and he's like, looks beautiful on you. And I'm like, And then he goes, I thought it, I thought it, now I've said it, now I've said it. So we worked on that connection of if you feel it, say it. If you feel it, say it, get it out. And that was a really good exercise for me. The other thing that we did specifically, and again, every relationship is unique. What works for one couple doesn't necessarily work for another couple. So these suggestions that I'm throwing out, they're tried and true. For me and for the clients that I suggested to, but if it doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel right. Definitely be authentic in what you do. But another suggestion that we had that was great was not to use the word, but try not to use the word, but because when you use the word, but it negates anything that you've said prior to that. So for example, I love you, but it's really annoying that you don't take out the garbage when I ask you to.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

The, I love you just went right out the window. Didn't even matter type of thing. And we really need to learn to talk in a way that the other person can hear us. Another great example of that is whether you speak in a way that gets your message across. So for example, my husband would be in the kitchen. I'd walk into the kitchen. Ooh, the garbage smells. He sitting on his phone. Yeah, it does. And that's it. And I'm thinking, I just dropped this huge hint on you to take out the garbage. Then we do the scenario yet again, walk into the kitchen and I go, wow, the garbage smells. It should really go out. He says, yeah, it should. Still doesn't move. Okay. So again, I feel like I've said something to be heard. He hasn't heard it. Then I walk into the kitchen. Oh, the garbage needs to go out. He says, yes, it does. Still doesn't move. So in my language, I have to A, use his his name to get his attention. Rich, the garbage needs to go out. Will you take it out? Oh, yes, sure. It snaps my particular situation, snaps my husband out of whatever he's doing to actually do the action that I've asked him to do. I'm now heard. Very validating to feel heard. The first example of, ooh, the garbage smells and he doesn't react, I don't feel validated. He points, it's how we communicate with each other that is so valuable and important because in reality, though we have known each other for over 40 years, he cannot read my mind. I cannot read his mind. It's cute when it does happen, but it's not the be all end all. It does not happen as often as we would like it to because they can't read our minds and we can't read their minds. Nor, and I was very guilty of this, very guilty of this, Yeah, I'm going to let that land for a minute because we do that. We think for the other person and that can be very dangerous. We also use definitive words when we speak and those become very challenging. Never, always. You never take out the garbage. Well, wait a second. I took out the garbage a year ago on Tuesday. Immediate defensive mode. Yeah. Exactly. People get immediately defensive. So one of the things that we worked on was to use, to strike those definitive words, those challenging words from our vocabulary to allow for that ability to be able to communicate in a constructive way rather than a combative way. Even when we feel that little tinge of you're not listening, because that's ultimately what we want in a responsible relationship. And I'll repeat that. a responsible relationship because that's what we should strive for is to have a mutually respected relationship and a responsible relationship to each other. And we care, take each other's confidence. How we do that is to feel seen and heard to validate us. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

You know, it's really funny because some of the things that you were saying, I wanted to think about some of the early stages of some of the relationships that I, I, I, you know, been in and And how that evolved, right? an actor of trying to impress the other person or not, it's very easy to sort of assume that the other person is just like this because that's how he was the first four months of our relationship. But then at some point that kind of does wear off and, you know, you get comfortable in your relationship and sort of a lot of relationships end because of that, because they were like, you've changed, you know, you used to be so, you know, caring towards me and what happened along the way, where did that go? And, you know, your priorities changed along the way. Um, Is that something you can relate to as well? Do you feel like in the early stages of your relationship, you had that and it was really strong and it sort of started fading and that eventually led to that point?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

I'm going to say yes and no.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Yes,

SPEAKER_01 33:08

I definitely felt that comfortableness. It's kind of like after the honeymoon period, you do change a little bit just because you get comfortable. Suddenly, you can run outside in sweats and a t-shirt and your hair in a bun, whereas when you were dating? Never, never. You know, you always put yourself together and men too. Men are equally as guilty of it because we become comfortable. Oh, it's so comfortable to be in our sweats and hanging out on the couch and that type of thing. But we need to make an effort. We need to make an effort in our relationship to, again, caretake each other and caretake ourselves because sometimes we find ourselves also not really We loving ourselves as much as we did prior. And I find it, I always find it very interesting when working with clients where she will mention, you know, he compliments me when I'm wearing sweats and a t-shirt and my hair's in a bun and it's like, Oh no. And I'm like, don't do that. That he saw something at that exact moment that allowed him to actually you think something and then use his words and say some, a compliment to you. and you dismissed it. Yeah, no, no, no, don't dismiss it. Oh, this old thing or, oh, no, I don't. No, no, no, no, no. Receive. Receive. When your man gives you something, receive it. The best example that I like to use for this is I think of it this way, and I only think of it now. Again, after you go through recovery, you have yourself before betrayal, and then you have your after betrayal. You're older, you're wiser. You're very wise now. And so this wisdom comes from that is that I recognized that women receive. We do. Think of it. It goes back to biology. It does. What happens? The egg releases and it sits and waits for the fastest swimmer. Then the fastest swimmer gets there. The egg waits to receive. Receive. Receive from your Take it graciously and then go from there. Because when you take things graciously from your man, it makes him feel good. And when he feels good, what's he going to do? And again, he's going to wear that red t-shirt because he really liked what you said. And you said it so haphazardly. I didn't even think about it. It wasn't contrived or anything. It was natural. It was authentic. It was how I felt at the moment. And he felt that. And wanted to replicate that. He wanted that again and again and again. What did he do? He wore the red t-shirt again and again and again.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

I feel like, ooh, I like to watch you. In a way, you're helping him, you know, try to be more healthy in his own, you know, in his own life. You're also getting a little like fun little experience. And, you know, it just, it just encourages you to compliment him more and him to do more good for himself too. So, you know, there's, there's only positive that can come out of something like that.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Absolutely. Absolutely. And if they overhear it, you say it to someone else. Oh, yeah. There's extra brownie points for that. When you comment, oh, yes, Rich is outside. He's mowing the lawn. Oh, he was all hot and sweaty and he came in and it sure was all right. Oh my gosh. I can't believe how handsome he looked. Yeah. He's going to be out there mowing the lawn a lot. Just because you said it to someone else and he overheard it. Again, that little confidence boost, it's intoxicating. It truly, truly is. And it's so easy to do. Every time my husband holds the door open for me. And he's like, you don't have to thank me every time I open the door. Yeah, I do. Because I know that that's the reason why you're opening the door for me. It's these little itty bitty things. And they go a long way. Because think of those little itty bitty things that irritate you. Those go a long way too, right? Yeah, they do. Those little itty bitty irritations can start to stack to the point where they turn into an explosion Well, let's reverse that. Let's stack those little good things so that they lead up to something amazing.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Habit formation, because, you know, I guess it had been such a while that you had created this dynamic between you guys and now you were working on tweaking, changing. It's hard, I can imagine, to make that the new normal.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Very

SPEAKER_00 38:41

much so.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

I want to use a word of caution because every relationship is different. Every circumstance around betrayal is different. And it's not like you can type into Google, how long does it take to heal from betrayal? And type in how many years you've been married, how many kids you have, the zip code, the money in the bank, so forth and so on. And Google runs through some sort of calculation and spits out a number and says, in 87 days, you'll be healed. Doesn't quite work that way. So what worked for us, and in terms of a duration of time, I don't want it to be the goalpost for anybody. Yours might be a lot sooner. Yours could be a lot longer. It depends on so many different factors. For us, the healing Healing really took off and it started to accelerate when I got the help that I needed because it was for me about me working on myself first because what I didn't recognize at the time until I started working with someone was that the reason that this betrayal hit me like a Mack truck was because I had had all of these little betrayals throughout my life starting in childhood that I never processed. Right. And that's the beauty of working with a support circle is you get a variety of suggestions.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Can you tell me a little bit about some of the revelations that you had when you were doing your own work and a little bit about that childhood that you mentioned earlier?

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yes. When you go through situations as a child, you don't have the wisdom of an adult. You really don't. You have a child's brain and you process things the way that you do historically based on generations, based on the adults around you who either minimize, and in my case, minimize your trauma. In my particular case, my grandparents went through the war, World War II. They had nothing. And they reminded me every single time that they had nothing. And anytime I had something that made me feel bad, I was compared to their situation. So if I didn't get the doll that I wanted for my birthday, and I got a different type of doll, and I would sulk about it because it wasn't what I wanted I was very clear about what I wanted, my grandparents would say, at least you have a doll. So I grew up with the at least, at least. And I found that I went through life with that mindset of at least, at least. And again, going through this betrayal, I would remind myself, well, at least he's still here. At least he didn't do X, Y, and Z. At least he didn't get someone pregnant. At least. And I went through the whole list of at least. It was minimizing how I actually felt. And it was trying to make me feel better. Again, the nasty chick voice on my shoulder with at least. So I found that, again, going through the experience of my childhood, reliving it from an adult perspective, I started to recognize those little patterns that really minimized my feelings. And that's why when on that fateful day in Central Park, my feelings exploded. They explode because they had been trapped in my body for decades. Because as a child, I wasn't allowed to feel those feelings because it was always compared to my grandparents who went through the war.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Can you talk to me about that emotion guilt? And how did that play into your life?

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Guilt is a tough one. Guilt and shame. Yeah, they're two different ones, but boy, they walk hand in hand. The guilt that I had of being fortunate. I had a doll. I had food. I had clothing. Might not be what I wanted, what I wanted, but I had. So I was always very much so. I went through childhood feeling very guilty and minimizing so much of my life. I didn't recognize that when my mother, when I was 16, said to me, there's no room for you, and I moved out and couched surfed at all my friends' houses in the summer of 1985, that I was homeless. I didn't make that connection. I just saw it as, at least I have a life in reverse with new wisdom and a different perspective. And I found it really fascinating. You had an amazing guest on episode 37, Patty, and she talked about the benefits of EMDR. I'm not going to attempt to explain it. I encourage your listeners to go back to episode 37. She explained it perfectly. I do encourage EMDR. I found for me, it was fascinating. I didn't use it for the betrayal. I didn't use it for the day in the park. I used it for my childhood to go back to those moments in time when I was made to feel less than, made to feel that I had to accept what I had and not strive for anything more than that because my grandparents went through their experience. So generational trauma, yes, it does exist. Very, very much so. And we don't realize as parents the things that we say to our children that they hang on to. They hang on to. Things that were said to me when I was five, six, seven, I held on to for over 40 years. How

SPEAKER_00 45:31

did you process people that were, quote unquote, better off than you? When you were undergoing this whole process of at least, at least, at least, what was your view towards those that did have it better?

SPEAKER_01 46:31

I use it as fuel. Oh, you have the car that I want. I'm going to work hard to get that car. I, you know, share your secrets with me. Let me learn from you. Tell me what you're doing. How did you do that? Because again, we live in a society now. Yes, we're thumb warriors. Oh, we go after our thumbs definitely work for us or against us. But we also live in a filtered society. So you'll see a photograph of somebody, you know, leaning up on a car that you want might not even be their car and their aspiration you know so there's a lot of non-reality going on but it's it's being happy with what you have and being grateful for what you have but turning it around so that it's not a be grateful for what you have because we didn't have anything it's be grateful for what you have because you worked hard for it be grateful for what you have because of who you are not what you went I

SPEAKER_00 47:31

like that. And I think also like post-faithful day event, your shift in perspective towards things through all this therapy as well has probably like, you know, even just viewing other people that are better off, seeing them as something to strive towards as opposed to, you know, scorn at, has probably also unlocked a lot of potential within you as well. You know, just seeing the world in a much more of a positive light. light and seeing that that's fantastic. I feel joy for this person and I would love to learn the strategies to get there. In itself, that shift in that mindset can be so just opening for you as an individual as well in your life.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

It was so liberating. It was so liberating not to be everything to everyone else, not to be who I thought I, who I thought everybody else wanted me to be. To mold it into what they wanted me to be. I love who I am now. I love my reflection in the mirror. I love the other side of betrayal. Now, don't get me wrong. I don't wish betrayal on anyone. But boy, if you've got to go through it, you will come out on the other side better for the experience. And I am better for the experience. I am a completely different person now. And if you haven't seen me in 10 years and we bump into each other, you will not believe the outward transformation, let alone the inward transformation. And I'm ridiculously proud of who I am, what I do, the impact that I have. My life now is guided by three principles. It's first and foremost, have fun. Have fun in what you're doing. The second is have an impact. Have an impact. And the third is profitable. Yes, we still need to be profitable. I still have that little itch behind me of that summer of 85 couch surfing. Yes, it's still there. But as I said, it's a third thing. It has to be fun first and it has to be impactful, then profitable. And that's the key point in my book. A lot of people ask me about my book. I've written two books and again, they were not for a commercial or an academic success. They weren't. They that I needed when I went through betrayal. I wanted to read something quick. I wanted short chapters. Tell me what I need to know. Tell me how to get through it. A couple of suggestions. Again, take what you can use. Toss the rest. Some might feel really good. Others might feel, yeah, no, I'm not going to do that. End with something positive so that if I do eventually fall asleep, I have a good thought in mind before I drift off to sleep. That's what I designed them for. I'm I'm ridiculously proud of them. my grandparents. I know what they went through. I know the horrors and the atrocities of what they went through, but that was their life. That wasn't my life. And I'm so grateful for the sacrifices that they made and whatnot. But yeah, I left that baggage behind, the at least. I left it behind because there's so much more to life than just at least.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Yeah, yeah. Did you ever go back during this therapy process? Did you ever go back to your grandparents and sort of tell them their role in your healing process as well

SPEAKER_01 51:33

oh yeah and very very much so we did a wonderful um future-based example where we went into the future so i could see myself in the future which initially i had a hard time with because i didn't change there was nothing different about me and i was so upset that there was nothing different about me but then we went into the past and i had an opportunity because both my grandparents had passed to have that conversation with them and And to let them know that in their sacrifices to come to this country, so forth and so on, that they inadvertently saddled me with their trauma and I needed to leave it at their feet. It was theirs to process, not mine. And that was very, very cleansing. change in yourself and you're like, wait a second, I'm doing all this work. Everything's happening. How come nothing's changed? As it turned out, the reason for me particularly, and it was really focused on my hair, because for your listeners, my hair has a pink streak in it. The sides of my hair are shaved off and I'm a C-suite executive. Yes, I walk into boardrooms with my hair like this. And why my hair is the way it is trauma-based. What that means is on that day in Central Park, I had hair halfway down my back and I had bangs and it was salt and pepper. When I came home that night, I grabbed a pair of scissors and I cut it to my chin. That was drastic. Each revelation related to betrayal, I did something else with my hair because I could control my hair. I I found that very cleansing to do so. Only working through therapy did I realize that your hair holds a lot of trauma. And I was like, really? Well, I snipped it all off, which is great. The reason that going through this exercise of being forward thinking and looking at yourself three years from now and seeing how you are and I saw no change really affected me, working with a therapist, the therapist said, well, maybe it's the situation where there's no more trauma and that's why there's no change. And that was such a release for me because that was in fact true. My hair has been exactly the same for years now because no trauma, no more trauma. I let the childhood trauma go at my grandparents' feet. I've let my trauma go, my betrayal trauma go at my husband's feet. The shame and the guilt, that was his to bear, not mine. So though I took it on, I took it from him, like I snatched it out of his hands and said, oh, that's mine now. I've now given that back and laid that at his feet. I can only be responsible for my own actions. I can only be responsible for myself. You mentioned cradle to grave. It's us. We're left with ourselves. We have got to have self-trust and self-love in our lives. We have to do that for ourselves. And once we get to that point where we can look in the mirror, we can look in our own eyes and be like, Wow. You're amazing. I so love you. I'm so proud of you. I forgive you and I commit to you. When we can get those statements out of our mouths, we're liberated. 100%. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Let's just veer away from relational and familial betrayal and talk a little bit more about self-betrayal. Just like earlier, we were talking about forgiving ourselves and saying, I love myself and I care about myself. Those Those can be so significant in, you know, I'll say this, I've done a couple of episodes in the past, and a lot of people who've talked about being in abusive relationships or abusive situations, they, you know, blame themselves a lot of the time for, you know, that. And they said, many of them said that stepping out of that sort of phase of their lives, they've realized looking back that the reason why they kept engaging in these kind of, you know, abusive relationships in the past is because they did not have enough self love, self respect, self-care. Can you talk to me and our listeners a little bit about what that entails and what can we do to sort of find that? You mentioned therapy and that being a very significant part. But what are some other sort of practices that we can sort of put into motion to betray ourselves less and, you know, love ourselves more?

SPEAKER_01 56:23

Yes. Self-betrayal, it's a big one. It's similar to self-sabotage as well. Things are going really good and suddenly it doesn't go well. And we think it's outside forces and sometimes it's ourselves. We do it to ourselves. We betray ourselves because it really comes down to worthiness. We don't think we're worthy. And that's a really, really powerful limiting belief. We also have our inner critic. Our inner critic is brutal. We think she's helping us and she's not. Really, truly is not. She's beating you down every single day. She She talks to you or he talks to you in such a way that you would never allow anybody else to talk to you that way. But you allow it. And they're with you day in and day out, 24-7, all the time. So first and foremost is tapping that down. And that's really hard. My suggestion related to that is to tap it down for 10 minutes. When you hear that voice going on, because we all hear it. We hear it going. When you hear that voice, hey, I need 10-minute reprieve. Just leave me alone for 10 minutes. You'll come back in 10 minutes, but leave me alone for 10 minutes. When you confront your inner critic, it's very powerful. The next day, 15 minutes, then 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 57:40

You

SPEAKER_01 57:40

build upon it. If 10 minutes is too long, four minutes, then six minutes, then eight minutes. But you incrementally get that inner critic to settle down, to settle down and to be quiet because it's really hard for you to think straight when you've got somebody screaming in your ear. The tactic that I love, and Lisa Lisa Nichols. First time I've heard of it was from Lisa Nichols. Brilliant. It's 21 days. You can do this. I'm sorry. 21 statements for 30 days. 30 days. Are you ready for it? I'm going to pause in between each one in case you're actually writing this down because it is

SPEAKER_02 58:15

powerful.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

So the first thing that you're going to do is that you're going to look at yourself in the mirror and you are going to have three different sentences that you're going to use. One is I forgive you. The other one is I commit you. And the third one one is I am proud of you. So we start with pride. I am proud of you because. Now you also need to say your name. Most beautiful word in the English language is your own name. So Vanessa, I am proud of you. Yourself in the mirror, say it. Vanessa, I am proud of you. And then finish the sentence. You want seven sentences. Now you can use the same sentences every single day if you'd like. Not a problem. But it's really important for you to be looking in the mirror. It It is a mirror exercise. I am proud of you, cuz. The next one is your name. I forgive you. I forgive you. Finish the sentence, okay? The third one, I commit your name. I commit to you. And you finish the sentence. Seven different sentences for each one. So those that are math, 21 sentences. Every single morning, every time you brush your teeth, put a Post-it note Say it to yourself, but you need to look at yourself, not look down, because if you look down, that's shame. Look in your eyes. Tell yourself what you feel. It's so important. Do it for 30 days. Now, first time, you'll be all energized to do it. Second day, you'll be like, yeah, this doesn't feel right. Third day, there's going to be resistance. There absolutely is going to be resistance, but you need to move through that resistance, because resistance is always a song. that there's something great on the other side of it. Push through it. 30 days of doing that exercise. That has been a game changer for a lot of my clients is just that hearing yourself say those words to yourself. Very, very powerful.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Yeah. Do you think it is necessary to silence that critique, that inner critique, or to change that narrative so that it's more constructive? So as opposed to saying you are You could say, hey, why don't we do a little bit of exercise today because that will benefit you in the way that you look or something like that. Or you could be able to fit into that dress better. So sort of just like turning that conversation so that you're still giving yourself the critique, but in a healthier manner so that you can continue to strive for bigger, better, larger. So continuing to believe in yourself, but that critiquing is an important part of growth. Would

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

you agree with that? to know it's not authentic. That's why this mirror exercise is really important because you are drafting your own sentences. I am proud of you for, I am proud of you for being a good mother. I'm proud of you for being a good father. Proud of you for X, Y, Z, whatever it is. Seven sentences about your pride. Seven sentences about what you forgive yourself for. Vanessa, I forgive you for not caretaking your husband's confidence. I forgive you for not caretaking your own confidence. Lots of different ways of doing that. Yes, we have an inner critic that sometimes drives us if that's in fact what they're doing. If they're driving you towards a goal and it feels good, then absolutely. But if your inner critic is making you feel like crap, yeah, that's not working. That's not working. And battling your inner critic when you don't feel strong enough, it's a losing battle. And then your inner critic wins and then beats you down even more. No, let's tap it down. Tap it down. You'll still be there. The critic will still be there. But let's tap it down to start with, and then we'll work on reframing

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

it. Oh, my God. So many interesting, beautiful toolbox right now. I feel like I can open it up right now and just take away pieces. I'm going to go back and listen to this and sort of start practicing some of these things. And very practical things as well. And I know for sure, in a lot of aspects, I do need to do something like this for myself too, because I know I can be really hard on myself. And I'm sure a lot of people experience that too. And I do think as well, like the moment that you start to forgive yourself and you start to use those affirmations on the regular and actually believe that and start to love and respect yourself, then you will also start to attract that in your relationships going forward. And you will also start to recognize that if someone else is stepping down or overstepping boundaries or someone doesn't feel like a right kind of vibe or energy for you, you will be able to sort of recognize that right off the bat because you have listened to yourself enough. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

Do you want to know what the most attractive quality is for males and females? Tell me. You ready? Yeah. Confidence. Confidence. It's absolutely what attracts us to each other without a doubt. Think of it this way. Somebody of all shapes and sizes, all shapes and sizes, walks into a party and she owns it, owns it. It's her confidence that precedes her. It's not what she's wearing. It's not her size, nothing of that sort, because that's what we see first. We see somebody's image, again, warrior thumbs, filters, but in live person, yes, we see them first before they open their mouth, but their confidence, that comes through immediately, immediately their confidence comes through. Same thing with males. Absolutely, without a doubt. They do not need to be an Adonis. They do not. But if they walk into the room and they own it. Now, confidence, not arrogance. There's a difference. But confidence, they're comfortable in their own skin. They're comfortable with what they have to say. Oh, it's so attractive. It very much is. And we find that when we engage in conversations like we do on podcasts, that confidence Confidence leads through. Confidence is the most attractive thing. So yes, we can focus on our profiles for dating profiles, things of that nature, but who you are and how you own yourself and you own your story speaks volumes, speaks volumes. It all

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

comes down to confidence. I love that. So I'm going to end this interview with one last question because I feel like you've already given us so many useful tips and messages that we can take. So I'm going to ask you a quote that one most resonates with you and one that you think would and could, and maybe that you want to get across to our listeners. Maybe a quote that really stood out to you.

UNKNOWN 1:05:44

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

I'm a really big fan of Viktor Frankl. Can't change the past. Can't. As much as we would love to, can't. So we're challenged to change ourselves, to change our reaction, to change how we respond, to change how we eventually feel about it. Because your feelings do change over time. So yes, we are challenged to change ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

And that is so true. That is 100% true. And it also is very reassuring when you know that, that there are things beyond our realm that we can't change. So there's no point in panicking over it. Take a deep breath and just focus on the things that you can change. Very much so. Very, very much so. Vanessa, thank you so much for being on this podcast. This was such an amazing conversation and so positive and so motivating and so driven. And yeah, I'm really, really excited for our listeners to hear this.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

Beautiful. Most important takeaway, you're not alone. You are absolutely not alone. And it's okay not to be okay, but you will be. You will get through to the other side.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help support the show, please follow and subscribe. You can rate and review your feedback on any of our platforms listed in the description. I'd like to recognize our guests who are vulnerable and open to share their life experiences with us. Thank you for showing us we're human. Also, a thank you to our team who worked so hard behind the scenes to make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

The

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

show would be nothing without you. I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening to Multispective.