044 Child Protective Services Insights: Kevin Smith's Case Work

In this episode, we explore the critical world of child protective services through the lens of Kevin Smith, a formerly dedicated social worker with firsthand experience. Dive into insightful case studies revealing the intricacies of child welfare, abuse, and neglect. Gain valuable knowledge and perspectives on safeguarding children's rights and well-being. Subscribe for compelling content shedding light on the complexities of child protective services and advocating for the most vulnerable members of our society.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

You see a child maybe start to blossom and then you put him right back in that environment and it just crash and burn. His last words for me today, Mr. Kevin, if you put me in that home, I'm going to use this gun to shoot myself in the head.

SPEAKER_02: 0:17

Hi guys, Jenica here from Multispective and I'm here to share with you an episode where I interview Kevin Smith. This is a bit of an intense episode. I have to give you guys some trigger warnings. Kevin Smith used to be a child welfare social worker in the US. He talks about his experience. He gives many, many, many, many examples of his time and he delves really deep into some of the very traumatic cases that he worked with. He talks about how it triggered him personally. We talk about things like self-care as well and where he is right now. He's living in shock. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, Kevin, welcome to Multispective. I'm so excited to have you here. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00: 1:16

I'm doing all right. Thank you very much, Yannica. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18

So listeners, Kevin is a good friend of mine. I actually have known him pre-podcast episode. We have worked together on some kind of capacity and really, really exciting to share this episode. It's slightly different take from what we usually do. This one is more focused on sort of a career path that he's chosen and sort of the hardships and the challenges that he experienced within the field of his work, but super inspiring. I listened to this, his story briefly in the past, and I was like, you have to be on my show. So I'm super, super excited to have you on this podcast with us today. Kevin, why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about your background? Where are you from and your childhood?

SPEAKER_00: 2:00

Okay, well, I guess my childhood's a fairly uneventful childhood. I was born in America, born and raised, and seven years in Chicago, seven years in Cleveland, four years in Anchorage, Alaska. My My father was a chemical engineer. My mom, a housewife, pretty traditional family. And he was in the oil business. That's where he bounced around a lot. But it was pretty much suburban America, you know, dust to dawn, baseball, barbecues, and biking around town. Bookended by an older brother and a younger brother. And there was school as well, but school was more in the parameters of my life. I got to say, I was not always drawn to academics. Kind of preferred more what was happening outside the classroom, outside the window. And it was not a reflection upon the teacher. Wonderful teachers, I'm sure. Don't really remember them, but it was just more my own shortcoming, my inability to actually stay focused on something in front of me. So be patient with me today if I drift off as well.

SPEAKER_02: 2:53

That's really cool. You come from sort of like a background of like pretty, like academics, I guess, or pretty successful individuals, like you mentioned your dad. What about your siblings? What do they do for work?

SPEAKER_00: 3:05

Actually, my older brother right now, he works in special education for kids. kindergarten to first grade. It's been about 20 years. And my younger brother is a project manager of sorts.

SPEAKER_01: 3:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 3:18

But they all live in my hometown. Most of them lived overseas. My parents lived overseas as well, but they're all now back in Cleveland. And I consider my Cleveland my hometown. That's where I go when I go back to visit. My extended family all lives there.

SPEAKER_02: 3:28

Right. So is that where you spent most of your childhood there as well? And that's where you started working in the social working field?

SPEAKER_00: 3:36

No, when I was 13 years old, I left, go to Alaska. Not that I ran away from home or took off myself. I was transferred up there and went to Anchorage, which is a beautiful, incredible place. Alaska is my first real adventure. It was just wild. But after four years, bless how tough it is to live up there. It's cold. It can be bleak. And then I brought me back to the Ohio State University. And that's where I went to school and majored in criminology and psychology and kind of led me in the direction I'm in right now. And then I stayed in Columbus, Ohio for a while. And that's where I was a social worker, which we'll be talking about mostly today.

SPEAKER_02: 4:06

Yeah, that's awesome. So you actually studied criminology and psychology Would you say that child social working, the work that you did is closely connected with that field or is criminology mostly focused on a different kind of, is it a different strand to an extent?

SPEAKER_00: 4:25

Well, you could say it's a different strand, but a lot of the kids I was working with are kids that grew up in homes where there's a lot of illegal activities, just unhealthy environments. And these children, the paths they were going on, for example, when they're very young, it's maybe classified as ADD, ADD, ADHD. which can go to an antisocial behavior, which goes to some other label, which eventually becomes a criminal. So a lot of these kids were headed in that direction due to the environment they're in. So there was a connection. But I know myself, I originally went or was looking towards criminology and psychology because I wanted to go into forensic science. That was my dream when I was younger. But then I learned that I lacked the discipline as well as the memory to go into such a field, which basically means I just wasn't smart enough for it. So I had to redirect. And that's when I focused on criminology and psychology to become a detective that was my next plan but uh i thought you know being a police officer for you know five ten years what an experience that would be but the more i was in university and surrounded by a lot of people who are going in that field and the more i learned the more i heard wasn't a big fan of the atmosphere a lot of the machismo and a lot of that but i think it's the blue wall that silence you know it's a brotherhood you stay silent you protect each other before you're actually protecting people you should be out there serving so it just really was not what i was looking for

SPEAKER_02: 5:39

like it's really not as glamorous as they make it seem in the TV shows and in the movies that we watch online, right?

SPEAKER_00: 5:46

Yeah, I guess I never even got to that point. I mean, with a detective, I imagine it'd be a tougher life. You'd be more of a cynical person, but you'd be making a difference. It'd be fascinating work, you know, what I learned in criminology. And like, for example, my two favorite classes in the school, one was peniology, and that is the study of prison systems. And I was fascinated by that. And number two was abnormal psychology. And just the more unusual a state of mind can be, the more fascinating I found.

SPEAKER_02: 6:10

But would Would you agree that most of the cases that we see today, in crime cases that we see, do stem back from childhood, from an upbringing of the child?

SPEAKER_00: 6:21

My experience, if I had to guesstimate, I would say 80% of the kids I worked with had issues due to poor parenting, an unhealthy environment at home. The other 20% could have been due to mental health, just falling with the wrong people, drugs, alcohol. But the majority of the time, it was most certainly a product of their environment.

SPEAKER_02: 6:40

That's really sad if you think about it as well, right? Because it's like, it's a known fact that I guess people know about, people study about, people read about everywhere. We've seen enough cases as well to be able to verify that, you know, the childhood upbringing can really lead to this. Yet, the irony is that there is never enough intervention at a young age, or it's, again, like the goal is most often for reintegration rather than, you know, really trying to help that kid. and put them through enough care so that they can sort of undo that trauma at the age, at the time they're experiencing it.

SPEAKER_00: 7:20

Yeah, there's the dose of reality. For example, of a lot of the kids I dealt with, you would take them out of that environment, put them into a facility of some sort, maybe putting them to a family member's home, a healthier home, and they'd go through a lot of different treatments. Some of the family members, I'd say the parents might have to go through some case plans as well, some requirements, some whatever it might be, some kind of counseling, some kind of alcohol addiction, drug addiction programs. But the biggest challenge was once these children finish these programs, we'd put them right back in that environment. In children, yes, they can change. Parents, much less. So when you're putting a child back in there, everything you've taught them, you've given them some tools, some strategies. They have this in their wheelhouse. But their wheelhouse is still that of a 12-year-old child, a 14-year-old child, one who's fractured already. So how can they actually apply what they've learned? It's nearly impossible. And a lot of what we've done is just sabotage or undermined by the parents by the caregivers. So it's really tough where you see a child maybe start to blossom and then you put them right back in that environment and just crash and burn. And it is tough. But I know when I was a social worker, the ultimate objective was reunification, which means get the child back with the family. And often I disagreed and that was not the healthiest choice, but that was a policy at the time and could still well be, but I don't think it was healthy for a lot of our kids.

SPEAKER_02: 8:35

Right. So like what, when you were working through this and like learning about the field and stuff like what what did they say why what was the intention or the idea behind reunification

SPEAKER_00: 8:47

you mean when i was studying or i was actually a social worker

SPEAKER_02: 8:50

oh both i'd like to know was it different when you were studying it versus when you were working and

SPEAKER_00: 8:54

yeah when i was studying it it was so much more theory so there wasn't a whole lot about actually you know grassroots you're out there in the field you're actually realizing oh this is the ultimate goal yes you're having a family a whole family is really important but rarely were these families whole families and i've seen some whole families that are just as unhealthy as a fractured family. But I saw it more when I was actually in the field and learning that was the policy, going to the courts. That's where it kind of helped pound home what was actually required, what was expected, even though it went against everything that we believed we were doing, but we had to meet that goal. Because that was often a case plan when you're involved in a case. All right, here, there are three things that are a problem. There are three things we must work on, one, two, and three, and that is ultimately to get a child back home. If the parents are following what they need to do, which is fair enough, what does expected, even though they might just be jumping through the hoops. They know the game. A lot of our kids know the game as well. They manipulate. They use it. They say it's a means to an end, not actually internalizing what they're going through, but just saying, all right, we need to finish this case plan. We get our child back over here. We can move on with our life. And it would be nice if it was in a positive way. And sometimes it is. I don't want to sound overly cynical, but it seemed less so. It wasn't the norm.

SPEAKER_02: 10:05

Right. So can you give me a ratio, an approximate out of 100 cases? How many of them would be, would, would reunification actually be in the best interest of the child where it would actually work versus the other way around?

SPEAKER_00: 10:19

Ooh, well, that is tough. On the top of my head, an actual number out of a hundred cases. Well, as you find out later on, I left the field due to how cynical I was, how lost the hope that I lost for these families, for the system. So my number is probably lower than it should be, but I'd say it's definitely lower than 50%, maybe 30%, 25%. But unfortunately, a lot of these kids, there wasn't anywhere else they could go. Or let's say, for example, there might have been that aunt or that uncle who was willing to take that chance. And the child went in there and they sabotaged the home for whatever reason they did. Maybe because, you know, they're dealing with something internally. Internally, maybe it's like, you know, this is not my mom and dad. You're saying bad things about my mom and dad. I know they're not good people, but they're my mom and dad. And that's hard for a child to understand because that is who they are. They know it's their mom and dad. It's tough for you to have somebody else come in and say, what your parents are doing is wrong. I'm going to help you out. And some parents, some aunts and uncles would not directly say. They'd be very careful to protect that child's parents because they know how much that child loves that parent. Even though that parent might be hurting that child, destroying their future, a lot of these aunts and uncles who are in a better circumstance, they are trying to do their best. But let's say once they were robbed themselves, they were assaulted by these children who are hurting so much that they have to eventually put their hands up and say, we have our own children we need to worry about. We need to worry about our neighbors over here we cannot get involved and you lose that option and the next option is going into franklin county children's services you become we are basically your custodians and it's not the healthiest choice either because often the kids go through a group home and group homes aren't the nicest places especially the older they get the tougher they are

SPEAKER_02: 11:59

that

SPEAKER_00: 11:59

makes sense

SPEAKER_02: 12:00

um so i i do want to get into your story but i just have one more question which i think would be really interesting can you tell us what in from your experience would you say is acting in the best interest of the child?

SPEAKER_00: 12:13

Okay. Sounds like an easy question, but it's extremely complicated to offer any kind of answer like that. But the best interest of a child, it all depends on who you're asking. If you're asking the child, of course, they have their own perspective. The parent, they have theirs. The court has theirs. A social worker has theirs. Maybe a guy from the South is different from the guy from the North. Maybe it's male versus female. There's so many different factors involved, but I do believe it is important to have the child involved. At school, we often teach student agency. Having the student have an opinion, having the student share, what are your thoughts on this? Do you feel this is actually useful for you? What is the big idea behind this? But at the same time, these are children. Their brains aren't even fully developed yet. These are kids who have grown up in usually horrible situations where their emotional foundation, their social foundation, psychological foundation, academic foundation, they're all stunted in so many different ways for them to actually make decisions about what is healthy for them. They've never learned what healthy is in the first place. So it's so hard. to actually say, well, what do you think? And a lot of these kids, let's say, for example, when I mentioned earlier about sending a child to a home, maybe an aunt or an uncle, where it's more of a stable environment. There are rules to follow. They must get up and go to school in the morning. They will be questioned about maybe what they're dressing like. Maybe if they're smoking in the home, is that okay? Is that an okay? Where often the homes are coming from, while not stable and maybe not healthy, there aren't as many rules. And I'll be honest, a lot of kids get used to not having rules and they enjoy that. A lot of kids actually also appreciate those parameters, its ability of having rules. For those who never had them before, to go to a home that has them, that's a whole different universe. So they could say, yeah, it might be healthy for me, but I love having a cigarette when I want to. I love to go into mom's packet. She has some marijuana in there. She's not going to notice if it's gone. Why not? But my aunt and uncle's home, I'm like, gosh, I got to dress like this. I got to walk like that. I got to eat with manners. It's exhausting. So is it always best to ask a child? Of course, you want to get their feedback. You want to offer some options for them. And we always did. For This will happen, or you could do that. Of course, kids are like, yes, I've seen that. I know that. At the same time, is that really an option for me? So being realistic, I've taken kids before for job hunts. Let's say when a child in at least the state of Ohio, if they drop out of school at 16 years old, by law, they must find a job, a part-time job. And I take kids around trying to help them find work. First with the work and the issue of you got to pull your pants up. Mr. Kevin, that's a style. I said, I'm sorry, you're not gonna get my Jeep with your pants hanging down, your underwear sticking out. Clean underwear, Mr. Kevin. I said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My Jeep seat's cleaner than your underwear, I'm sure. I can go back and forth. Let's go for the interview. The interview is important as well. How do you carry yourself during an interview? Well, Mr. Kevin, I want to get a job at this company or that company. I said, but you don't have a high school degree even, let alone the communication skills that work with someone. Yeah, well, I'm not working at McDonald's. Well, you got to start somewhere. I'm not working at McDonald's. No way am I making a minimum wage for this, that, and the other. I could sell drugs and make a lot more money. And honestly, that can become a challenge for us because from their perspective, and I'll be honest to degree, it's quite true. They can make a lot more money selling drugs than they can work in part-time job at McDonald's. And I say, well, you know, it's not a healthy living for you. You might get killed. Yeah, well, people around me get killed, Mr. Kevin. That's kind of part of life. Yeah, but your life may not be a long one. Yeah, well, that's pretty average. Well, I mean, you go to McDonald's, you got that uniform, you got that pride. Pride wearing a uniform. I got a nice leather coat if I'm selling drugs over there. I'm driving a nice car. I got an SUV. So it's what they've seen versus what I've seen. And it's hard to convince them otherwise because that's what they grew up to. Their role models are in that area. So to say, let's give the student, the child too much agency is not healthy. It's just based on what they've learned in their own background.

SPEAKER_02: 15:48

Very well explained.

SPEAKER_00: 15:49

Hope I didn't go on too much of a tangent.

SPEAKER_02: 15:51

No, no, no. I think that's great actually. Cause yeah, that's true. Like how do we know that the child really knows what's in their own best interest as well, right? Like in their head, they're thinking, you know, like the brain hasn't even fully developed, right? So it's like, how do you decide which one or the others, right? At the same time, you can say that I guess as well, one of the big reasons behind reunification is with the idea behind it is being for the best interest of the child. And oftentimes they may ask the biological parents, like, you know, thinking that the parents know what's best for their child as well. But then in reality, that also may not be true. So it really requires like really analyzing things deeply and I don't know, following your gut to an extent as well, but that doesn't work. There's rules, there's protocols, there's red tape, there's bureaucracy. So Yeah, I can imagine that being really difficult. What inspired you to get into this field?

SPEAKER_00: 16:44

What inspired me? I know my parents have asked this question. You know, we don't come from a family of social workers. I sit with my brothers in education, my little brother did education for a while as well. I'm in education now myself. There must be something. But I did have a maternal grandfather. And I know he was one of those people just, you see him in the streets and you saw a homeless person, he would offer him something. He'd talk to the person. Every two weeks, he would go to this place called the Poor Claire's And I don't know if it was a sect in Catholicism. What exactly were they were? For me, I was a 10-year-old boy. And these people took a vow of silence and respect to God. And I'd go there. And I found them pretty creepy myself because just these old kind of dowry-looking women who would not speak. My grandfather, he'd go to the local supermarket and just load up on groceries and bring that to them because they're called the poor clairs, which mean in addition to having a vow of silence, I guess they took a vow of poverty as well. And I'd ask him, I said, Grandpa, why do you do this? He's like, well, why not? You know, they're doing a good thing. I couldn't understand what they were doing, but he felt they're doing a good thing and he didn't mind supporting them. He wasn't getting anything out of it. It was just, it was just a gift. And he said, you know, it's important to help other people who were struggling. And maybe that seeped into my mind at some point, this little boy and stuck with

SPEAKER_01: 17:55

me.

SPEAKER_00: 17:55

But yes, there was really no big inspiration going into social work. It was just a job that was offered. And I thought, hmm, okay, well, it's going to help from what I learned in criminology and psychology. And when I started learning more about it, even just from the interview itself, it just started to fascinate me. And And that really began to appeal to me. So just one interview question was enough to make me go,

SPEAKER_02: 18:16

oh, wow, this is

SPEAKER_00: 18:21

really

SPEAKER_02: 18:21

what I want to do. Wow. And I mean, you stayed in that field for quite a while, isn't it? being paid very well, recalling not being paid very well, and also being overworked. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00: 18:47

It's a large, there's so many different kinds of social workers out there. Going back for myself in child protection services, they're two very different areas. And overworked, it was pretty strict. It was 40 hours a week. I don't remember having to work more hours than 40 hours. And if let's say I worked till midnight, maybe, for example, there was a time when at five o'clock, the shift is finished. And they said, Kevin, your child is 18 years old. now he's been released up in Cleveland from the mental health ward and he's still a ward of us so we need to go pick him up I said that's a two-hour drive yeah I know go up there fill out the paperwork bring him back and I finished about one o'clock in the morning I went straight to the bar had two shots of whiskey because it was a tough trip with a kid who was kind of Columbine level where he was person who's highly intelligent from a very wealthy family had their own butler which is very unusual in America but just the way he would talk would be make people uncomfortable and Not in your car. You know, I'm not a probation officer. I don't have handcuffs. Just somebody sitting in my Jeep with me for over two hours can be a stressful occasion. But the next morning, they said, Kevin, just go home. You shouldn't even be here. You know, you worked over five extra hours. It's a flex time. Go home. Take care of yourself. So in that sense, we didn't work overtime, at least in my field, in that time, in that job in Columbus, Ohio. But from the pay, yeah, it was abysmal. It was way too low for somebody to have a degree, a bachelor's degree, not to mention the work that you are doing. And I remember many times I'd have friends who were lawyers, who were engineers, who've done very well. And they combined the BMW. Oh my gosh, Kevin, what you do is so admirable that I wish I was like you. I respect that so much. But BMW,

SPEAKER_01: 20:25

I'm going

SPEAKER_00: 20:25

to go to the Bahamas this week and I'm going to have

SPEAKER_01: 20:27

some fun. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00: 20:30

So I found what they're doing. I was like, yeah, actually, I don't, I would not enjoy what you're doing, but the benefits you get out of it are pretty incredible. Where mine, yes, I'm trying to make society better. I'm sacrificing for the greater good. But at the same time, not seeing what those sacrifices are actually for, they were tough to swallow and you get that paycheck. And you often saw a lot of your clients were making more than you would.

SPEAKER_02: 20:50

And especially at that time, you were fairly young, first grad from university at that point. I do feel like even for me, looking for that bigger purpose in life kind of came a little bit later on. When I was young, I did enjoy the flashy things or I did want the flashy things. It was after that that I did some introspecting and introspection, did I realize that, hey, like, you know, I want to dedicate some time to making a difference. I can imagine that being really difficult. That's why I say four years, it's a long time. It doesn't sound like it. But

SPEAKER_00: 21:21

yeah, I do think you have a lot more younger, naive people who join social work. You know, I was 23 years old when

SPEAKER_01: 21:27

I started.

SPEAKER_00: 21:28

And when I came in the field, there were people that say in my unit, each unit had about six people in my unit, there were a couple older people who were probably in their 40s, 50s. And they just seemed highly cynical. just didn't really seem to care very much. But at the same time, if I came up with a case, I'm like, oh my gosh, this child needs this help. He needs, oh my gosh, what's the problem? Oh, well, it's this, that's, it's kind of, when I deliver what's going on, it was always a mess. But they'd say, come on, take a deep breath. Now show us exactly. Where's the case plan? All right, there's issue one, issue two, issue three. What are you going to do for him? Well, I think about these services, I'm thinking maybe this ABC service might work the best. All right, Kevin, there's actually 17 different services out there. Which one is the best one for it? So even though they might have sounded cynical which they were cynical burnt out which degree they were burnt out and their hopes in these kids actually succeeding through these programs minimal at best but did not hold them back from doing their job did not hold them back from sharing this wealth of knowledge they had with all the different services are out there and that was invaluable so at first it's like i don't want to become like you guys the same time i was like maybe i need to become like you guys to survive and maybe because i put too much passion into it i burnt out too early that's why i only let Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 22:41

that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: 23:09

Like I said, a very stable background. I was very sheltered as a child. So Alaska was my first big exposure. But again, I was living in another suburb. I wasn't living out in the bush in, let's say, an Aleutian community or Tlingit community where I was seeing poverty and depression everywhere. No. So maybe it was also the shock value of that. But I know my first couple of weeks in the job, my supervisor at the time, he said, remember to maintain a work-life balance, which you hear in any field. He said, if you lose that, you're going to lose your job. And I had a girlfriend for a pretty steady girlfriend. for about four years and about a year and a half, two years into the job, we went our own ways. And I think that's kind of where I lost that balance. It made me reflect and think, okay, I can understand the importance of that. When you go home, how can you turn it off? And a lot of the older social workers, I think when they went home, they had their separate lives and they can turn that off. Or myself, I go home and I'm laying there maybe with a drink, maybe just watching something, maybe without a friend, but just thinking, is little Tommy going to shoot himself in the head because his last words were me today. Mr. Kevin, if you put me in that home, I'm going to use this gun. I'm going to shoot myself off in the head. Was it a game for a lot of the kids? Sure, it might have been a game. But you never know when Tommy could have been playing. He could have accidentally done it himself. Or actually, Tommy actually did want to do it. Or actually, Tommy did do it. And it would come down on yourself and thinking, wow, did I just kill somebody? So that would weigh pretty

SPEAKER_02: 24:23

heavy.

SPEAKER_00: 24:24

Or maybe if you had a family, you go home, you have your children, you have your whatever you do after school and after work, you can kind of compartmentalize and put Tommy away and focus on that. That way you can kind of keep on going for many more years.

SPEAKER_02: 24:36

Yeah, I love that. Like compartmentalizing is such an important part. aspect, especially certain kinds of jobs. What about with the organized, like with the company, what were the things that they were doing to make sure that everyone that was there was there with the right purpose, with the right intention, and also getting that self-care? Is it just giving you guys enough days off or leave to have that? Or were there other things sort of put in place in the organization to support their staff?

SPEAKER_00: 25:00

Self-care. I don't remember hearing that come up besides my manager, that one time supervisor mentioned that within two weeks of coming in, you need a work-life balance. That was probably the only time it's really come up. The word self-care, it's very common now, but back then, let's see, I do had a coworker, another male, and our company was about 100 employees, and I think about 90 to 95 were female. It was a very female-dominated field. And he'd said, Kevin, some of the self-care, and he did not use the word self-care, but he said, you want to survive, do not go to the lunchroom. That's what the women eat. They'll eat you alive, let you know how horrible of a human being you are because you're a male. Oh, dear. So just have your lunch alone in your car and you'll be okay. And that was probably not the healthiest form of self-care, but I did go in the lunchroom a few times. I realized, oh my gosh, yeah, I should not be in here. I'm going to go. And I had a Jeep Wrangler, which was nice. It was a fun way to get around. And I'd often just have my lunch in there or just go to some fast food restaurant or pizza shop and have a couple of slices, just be by myself. And that was my self-care. Did I think of it as self-care? No, I just ended up a guy who was just hungry, needed some food and some quiet time. But the company, I don't remember them having any kind of events about self-care. There was some safety training, of course, but about how to be a better human, how to process emotions, things we learn about now. No, I don't remember any of that.

SPEAKER_02: 27:01

I really hope that that's different now, especially in your field. You know, I mean, in other kinds of fields, even teachers, we get talked about, you know, self-care and stuff and in many other kinds of jobs, right? That is like a hot topic right now, like looking after your mental health and your mental well-being and especially in a job like yours where you guys are being overworked and you're dealing with very heavy cases, were there other things that were put in place just to motivate you guys? Like not self-care necessarily, but like motivation, incentivizing.

SPEAKER_00: 27:31

Incentivize, let's see here. Well, the salary was certainly not an incentive. We had a mentor in our unit. So when you came in there, the mentor would kind of help guide us. And I thought that was when I first joined an incentive. You're going to be learning from somebody. They're going to be guiding you the whole way through. And in fact, it's actually only the first 30 days you go through them. You don't actually have your own family. You don't even set your own caseload until you're there with that person for 30 days, getting familiar with the system, how things work. And you can go out there with them to see a family. You're going to go to prison for the first time with them. You're going to go into court and represent the agency when you're not a lawyer, usually the first time by your mentor. And I found that as an incentive. Like, okay, I'm going to actually learn the ropes through somebody. And I was 23. They were probably about 28 years old. So they had a few more years experience. They were a kind person. They were understanding, similar background. And after that, you're more or less on your own those 30 days. Well, good luck and figure things out. So the incentive didn't last very long. Another incentive was applying what I had learned in school. I'm not a big guy in theories. I think theories are important. You need to learn that is the fundamentals where these things are coming from, but actually how to apply it in a practical way that That's more of my specialty and how to connect with these people out there. So I'm coming from a very different background. And I've been in homes before where somebody says, are you a 45-year-old African-American female with three children? One of them who has got a crack addiction right now. The only one who's pregnant with a child in the way. I mean, I'm sorry, ma'am. I've experienced none of those things. Then how do you have any right to come to my home to tell me how to be a proper mother? I mean, that sucks. Ma'am, ma'am, ma'am. And of course, I'm flustered. I don't know what to say. At the same time, I learned over time, it's not about trying to convince a person that I know more than they do. But based on my experience, based on my training, this is what you need to do to get your child back. This is what you need to do to hopefully get your life back on track. These are the systems that are in place. These are the programs that are available. Let's work together to make this happen. And trying to find the correct verbiage to meet somebody without talking down to them, without disrespecting them. When you are a 23-year-old white male, In the home of a 45-year-old black male, that's a major insult to the black male. Why are you in my home? A white man's coming into the home. The man is coming into my home. It's a tough thing. And I've been very direct with people who say, I know you don't want me at your home, and I'm sorry to be in your home. And sometimes there was one case where I think he was a good person, and he was trying to discipline his children. The kids were 16, 14, and 12, I believe, and he physically disciplined them. In the state of Ohio, that is illegal, especially when he's leaving marks. But he was a military man. And when he told me why he was doing it, what he was doing it for, I respected him. And his kids respect him. They loved each other. It was a happy, healthy home. But he was so insulted I was in his home because of this, representing the government, the man. He wanted me out as much as possible. And I tried to convey why I was there. And let's do A, B, and C so I can be out of your home as soon as possible. And he respected that. We had a good working relationship. At the end of the day, he shook my hand. He said, thank you very much. And I hope to never see you again. And that was completely understood. I agree and could relate. Theory ABC. And I could hear the client screaming there beside the phone. What the fuck are you talking about? Theory ABC? Who are you? Speak like a human being. What is wrong with you? And sadly, that person lasted three months. And they're crying every night they went home. What is wrong with me? Why can't they understand me? I said, well, you're not connecting at their level. Just you need to talk down to them. I said, no, no, no, you don't talk down to people. You just learn how to communicate in a way that they're going to comprehend with you. But you were talking down to them by using theories because it didn't really connect. They're not textbooks. They're And that was an incentive for

SPEAKER_02: 31:44

me, but I don't know if that's really what you're asking or

SPEAKER_00: 32:04

not. of Oz up there is who's deciding where these cases are going. But in our building, it was divided. Let's say there's 100 social workers. Half the building was for infants and young children, so about zero to eight, nine, 10 years old. And then there were older kids who would go from, let's say, nine, 10, all the way up to 18 years old, the age of emancipation. And I worked with the older kids. So my case locally had kids from as young as eight or nine, all the way up to 18. But of course, sometimes if I had a case open on a let's say a 16 year old boy. And then something happened to his baby sister is one years old. And she also became part of my caseload. But typically my focus was on the older kids. So let's say that day in the court, a kid stole a car and he was 14 years old and he's caught in the possession of drugs. Came to the court. The court opened a case on this. We're going to request that children's services gets involved with the family because the parents did not show up that day. We have concerns. So maybe if the parents do not show up and we don't know who actually would say not who owns a child, but who is a caretaker of the child, he might become a ward of the court, a ward of Franklin County Children's Services. And they say, okay, 14-year-old, he lives in this part of Columbus, Ohio. So there's four different offices we had at the time. And we are in one of the sections. Okay, he lives in this location. We're going to put him in this group. Okay, this unit over here, they've not had a new case in the past two days. We're going to put them in there. Okay, then it's into my unit. All right, Kevin, you have the lowest number right now. Or this is an angry male child. We're going to put him with you. because you seem to do pretty well with young, angry males. I said, okay. And then it opens up with me. And I will traditionally be with that child until the case is closed. So I've had some cases that went for the entire four years that I was a social worker.

SPEAKER_02: 34:30

Entire four years. I didn't even know that there would be a case that can go on for four years. How so? I mean, if something is being dragged on that long at some point, how does that work?

SPEAKER_00: 34:42

Let's say, for example, this case in particular is one case, and it was probably one that was slowly broke me over that many years because they just manipulated the system, used the system. But if it's first I was given the case file, looked at it and said, it's a 14 year old boy, maybe 13. And he had anger, rage issues. He basically lose control, see only red and wake up covered in blood. And that was my first involvement with him. I went out and met him in jail and he was about my size, a lot bigger, a lot stronger, a lot meaner looking and just A poor, tough kid who had a tough life. And then I'd meet his mother. I'd go to the home and I'd pick them up from jail, drove them to the mother's home, got to meet the mother. She was an ex-stripper. And I know during the meeting, he whispered to me, Mr. Kevin, I'm really embarrassed to ask you this, but my mom's asking, does she have a chance with you? I mean, what is going on in here? Oh, my. Oh, dear. Oh, geez. So that's just a normal situation. But he had a younger brother who was about 11 years old. Really sweet kid. Looked up to his older brother, even though His older brother had a lot of rage issues, but that was his older brother. Loved his mom. Everybody needs a job. Stripper, whatever your job might be, I'm not going to judge you for that one. Your lifestyles besides that, yes, of course, it's just natural to judge someone. But look at each other. They seemed happy. But of course, the mother had some drug issues. Mother was a prostitute as well, not just the ex-stripper. The son had alcoholism issues. Social issues. Could not get along with anybody. Had no ability to control his rage. And the little brother was just starting to drop out of school, or at least not attend school. Holder Brothers really going. And that's how I got involved with that family. And then we'd have to find the boy, for example, an alcohol rehab center. We'd put him in there for 30 days. And he knew at first, I think it wasn't just playing the game. He's like, oh, they actually do want to help me. I want to help myself. And he'd learned the strategies. He learned what to say. Let's go through this. After 30 days, we'd all meet. Mother'd be out there. Mother's like, yeah, I'm making changes. We prepared everything for him. I go to the home, make sure that his bedroom is clean. Everything is safe. There's no alcohol that I can see in the home. There's no weapons sitting there on the table. They're at least hidden. Mom showed me once underneath her panties. I said, that's not the safest place for a mom. Let's work on that one. After 30 days, he's saying everything he needs to say. And I think I even saw him wink at mom at one point. And it wasn't like, I'm going home with your mom. It's like, I just played the system. And unfortunately, maybe it's okay. Let's keep the case open for another 30 days, monitor how things go. And if they follow the rules, we're going to close the case. And usually after two or three weeks, something else is going to happen. We stay involved. Okay. And we have the other 12 year old boy and he's making some choices that are not the best at school. Kevin got to school and see this boy. We start getting involved with him and the older brother. And there's always something else coming up. Then there's a fight in the home where the 15-year-old boy gets in the fight with the mother's boyfriend. And you're back out there again. And then he goes to jail for four months. And in those four months, the case is still open. And then the mother says, I don't want to have this child anymore. She gives up custody. They become a ward of the court. And they are part of social services. We define them a group home, hoping to get them adopted at some point. And that often does not work because most people do not want a 15-year-old child who is full of anger and rage to be in their home to be adopted. And it just goes on and on and on and on. But this home in particular, this family, I should say, they were one of the small things that kind of chipped away at my hope in the future. And not one of the bigger cases that broke me, it was just a steady, constant taking the piss, taking advantage of the system and just eating away what we can do and just saying, there's just no hope for people like this who are just going to burn any bridges possible. And The money we spent, I'm guessing is probably easily a couple hundred thousand dollars in this one child, this one family.

SPEAKER_02: 38:22

It's really sad.

SPEAKER_00: 38:24

Sorry to sound so bleak.

SPEAKER_02: 38:25

I think it's like, it's important that we do hear these things, right? Like these are conversations that are really, really important for people to listen to. I think as difficult as they are, you know, parents out there listening, you know, other social workers out there listening, anyone, you know, who has a big power, decision-making power happens to listen to this episode could be really, really useful in figuring out ways that we can, and I will definitely ask you this question later on as well, and like what you think can be done to actually like, you know, make changes to help, actually help different kinds of kids. But I'll definitely leave that to a little bit later. I want to know though, like about a case that really, really impacted you, either positively or negatively, something that was, that stood out to you that until today, you hold close to you.

SPEAKER_00: 39:12

Okay, we'll start from one positive. You might question the positiveness of this, but this is a child. He was a 16-year-old boy and he was being sexually abused by his father. And due to that, they removed the child from the home and put him with an aunt. And that's when I got involved with the case. It was my job to make sure that the aunt's home was a safe home for the child. But also, once again, the ultimate goal being reunification, creating a case plan that would allow the father the opportunity to potentially have his son return and live with him again, even though there has been a history of sexual abuse. And if you might be wondering, well, how could we ever allow a child back in that home? Quite often the case, a child will not testify in the court of law that their father, especially a male child, that their father's been abusing them. Because let's say, for example, you're in the courtroom and the judge will ask the child, have you been sexually abused by this person, so-and-so, your father? And it's a terrifying experience for a child. And also, that's a person, I love them. That's all I know. That's the only family member maybe I have. And yes, they are a monster. They're a horrible human being, but they're also my father. Just that multifaceted outlook. How can I say anything? So they usually say no. And if there's no actual evidence, you know, physical evidence and there's no word, then often there's no charges that are pressed. You have to work on getting that child back in with the parent. And I know part of the case plan was supervised visits. So the father would come to my office and there's a little tiny room and he'd sit there with the son. And I've kind of sit there in the doorframe and just kind of watch the whole idea of a supervised visit, make sure it was healthy. It was safe. The kid felt comfortable in just letting them have a conversation. Was it natural? No, by no means. I mean, you could think if you were an adult, a parent, and there's somebody in the doorframe watching you both have a conversation, it was highly invasive, but it was completely required due to what happened to this child. The child was terrified, did not want to be there. The aunt did not want him there, but she understood the court proceedings and she said, okay, I'll bring him there. Another one was I had to go to the home to make sure that it was actually a safe home. With the boy at one point, when it's no longer supervised, but unsupervised visits, the boy, could he go to this person home, this father's home. Was it a safe environment? I mean, it was in the projects. And then for the projects for us, they said, don't go there after nightfall because you might get shot. You might get robbed. But often our clients worked. So it was kind of those catch-22s. You had really no choice. He said, okay, well, yeah, I don't go. And then the father's going to say, well, I couldn't finish the case plan because a social worker never came and visited. It's not my fault. It's Children's Services' fault. So I went out there and I remember visiting the home and I find a small apartment, maybe a two-bedroom apartment. And I walk in there and there's a woman just prone flat on the ground in the bedroom I couldn't tell she was dead and I was like whew and I dropped my little briefcase on whatever bag I had just hoping to make enough noise where she might lift her head up or something because I was feeling a little anxious when I dropped my bag she kind of lifted her head went maybe she was just stoned maybe she was drunk and the man looked at me the father and said you're a man you don't have needs and I said I'm just I just went oh okay let's just sit down please and we're sitting on a sofa and I had to go through and ask him a few questions and she's over there I could see her breathing. It wasn't like he clocked her over the head. She was just there, which is weird. I remember him walking behind me at one point, and every single nerve, fiber of my being just tensed up. I was worried he was going to whack me in the back of the head and wake up tied to a post and just God knows what would happen. And once he walked around, I was like, how did I even allow that to happen? Should I have jumped up immediately and said, why are you walking behind me? When he's like, it's his own home. He's walking around, but you're in a highly high-risk situation. But anyways... home was okay enough, minus the human being on the floor that was semi-conscious. And going back to court, let's say a month later, and they asked, the court said, okay, social worker, what about the home? I mentioned this. I mentioned the woman on the floor. Father has been going to all the different visits. And the child was terrified. The aunt was terrified, saying, oh my gosh, it sounds like the dad has met requirements. Are we going to take this child out of this home, this aunt's home, where he's blossoming? He's going to school now. He's dressing better because he has confidence in himself. He's combing his hair. He's feeling good about himself. When I see him he'd smile I go to the aunt's home she's like look how happy he is and he was happy but they could all be for naught if he has to be reunified and the court actually asked me the social worker which is very rare because the court generally did not like social workers they tear us apart in the stand often it's a very humiliating experience and they said what do you think is the best option for him he has completed the case plan do you think the child should return to the father and I was like oh my gosh you're asking me and the aunt's looking at me just going you know pleading with her eyes please please please don't allow this and I said, your honor, if it's up to me, he stays with his aunt where he's doing wonderful. He's blossomed in so many different ways. I just see positive growth. I do not see that if he returns to his father's home in the court, but judge, I don't know if she went here, here, here, whatever she did, but she said, okay, we will stay with this. The child will stay indefinitely with the aunt. We will revisit this in six months time. And just seeing that boy put his head down, just relief made me feel so good that I was involved and could make a decision that would help to keep him safe. And when I left that courtroom within three minutes the father was you know this close to my ear his lips were basically against my lips he's whispering goes i will find you and i will kill you and i was a younger guy and i remember i didn't handle very professionally but i just said you know something along the lines of fuck you ass i'm waiting for you because i just wanted to hurt this man so bad that's not the kind of person i am i'm not the punisher i've never in my life even physically hit somebody bear hug yes but never with my fist hurt someone imagine telling these people from limb to limb? Oh, all the time. Absolutely. And it was my own form of therapy. And the father, he drifted away, which is often the case. But that was a pretty good moment for me. Not having the dad threaten me with death, but seeing the boy and knowing he's going to be in a better place.

SPEAKER_02: 45:02

Yeah. I mean, I was just thinking like, it could be really, really like risky doing something like that works in the best interest of the child. But then again, you're running the risk of the parents or someone else being like completely, completely angry. angry. Also, how did you manage to keep your cool around this man every time you walked into his apartment? Not only him, but any other family members, parents where you'd heard that they were violent towards their kids or sexually abusing their kids. How did you manage to keep your calm and cool around them without wanting to act? I mean, I know you mentioned that you thought about it. It was your form of therapy, but what did you do to stop yourself from acting on that?

SPEAKER_00: 45:43

Well, I think one of them, as I mentioned earlier, I It's just not who I am. I'm not a fighter. I am all bark, no bite. I got a pretty good temporal shot. But it's not who I am to strike and hit somebody. So maybe knowing that, that a lot of people, they are fighters. They've grown up in situations where you fight to survive. Maybe that's kind of an instinct for me. If you're going to pull your fists up, you're going to be in a world of hurt because these guys probably know how to fight. So maybe that was something that kept me a step back. Number two, most of these homes had guns. And I've seen the guns in these homes. And I'm not a fan of guns. I don't carry a gun. As a social worker, you're not allowed to carry a gun. So maybe that's also kind of kept me to how to not use my emotion, how to use my rational side, my brain, even though my heart's thumping. I get in my Jeep just going, oh dear. But when you're actually in the situation, you take that deep breath. So, you know, going to home, let's say the police are behind you because it's a known violent offender. The police might accompany you and the police make you knock on the door. Right. I'd say to the policeman, I'd say, well, why am I knocking the door if they are potentially a violent offender with a gun? And they said, well, it's because you are considered non-threatening. I said, yes, but you are considered threatening and you are behind me. So if they shoot through me to get to the threatening presence, they said, well, we just hope that doesn't happen. I said, well, I'm glad. I appreciate your concern. And it only happened four or five times that the police actually had to escort me to a home. But quite often they go to another home. Maybe it's a new home or a home somebody doesn't want me to be there. There's always individuals that are coming and going to these places. You I don't know what's going on. I could knock on a door and somebody screams, you know, get the fuck out of here. And there's nobody fucking home. I said, well, who are you? I'm fucking nobody. I said, well, you got to be somebody. And again, I was younger. So, of course, you're a little cocky. You're not thinking as much as you should be. But at the same time, there could have been a gun dealer inside that door. It was just maybe they think I'm a drug dealer. Maybe I'm a member of a gang, an imposing gang. You don't know. But again, I was younger and a bit dumber. So I probably didn't always think about the situations out. in another situation where i remember it was a 16 year old male and his grandmother and grandmother's almost having a heart attack as she's screaming at him he was screaming at me the father was in the way to to tarnish the boy as he was saying i was going what is going on over here i remember my supervisor was blowing up my beeper i had a beeper back then not a phone she's saying get out of the house get out of the house it's not a safe situation and i could hear him in the kitchen scrambling for a knife he's and i think it was part of his show as well because i think he deep down he knew you know i was a social worker i'm there to help him out i'm not there to punish him, not there to hurt him, but he's just an angry child who had a tough past. And eventually, you know, father came, father, you know, threw him over his head, was smashing on the ground, furniture was flying everywhere. And I told my boss, you know, I finally called from the house. Grandma's like, call the house. Grandma's sitting there going, here's my phone, call your supervisor. And I said, I can't leave. There's a grandmother over here. She's going to die at any second right now. This kid and his father, they're going at it. And she's, what are you going to do? I said, I'm hoping to keep some kind of a calming presence. She goes, well, that's definitely not happening. I said, I know. And she goes, the police are on the way. And I saw the police pull up on the front lawn. They came in the home. The kids hitting the police officers. I was like, whew. So that day was a tough one. I'm sure I had a few too many, not too many, but a few well-needed drinks when I got home. So yeah, you just, you become more aware.

SPEAKER_02: 49:02

Could you talk to me a little bit about this concept of fight or flight? Because I feel like, you know, when you were in your previous job, you were constantly in this fight or flight mode. Is that something that you still carry with you today? And is that something that positively has sort of like helped you or does it sometimes inhibit you even today

SPEAKER_00: 49:21

yeah well you get that you know fight free flight yeah and you have freeze i think there's almost more of that one in between there's a freeze you just i'm not gonna fight i'm not gonna run i'm not gonna fight i'm just gonna stay calm and just maintaining that composure can calm a lot of people down so they see if you're being calm more likely they'll be calm and i also i'm a bigger guy i'm six feet two i'm 180 pounds and that does make a difference i think as well so people don't know, what is my background? Am I a dangerous individual? And I wouldn't tell them, hey, I'm not a fighter. Hey, you know, I've never been in a fight in my life before. Hey, I'm actually crapping my pants right now. I'm terrified. I don't say those things. So then I think maybe this guy knows what's going on. Maybe he's a threat to us. Maybe he's a danger. And maybe that helped to calm things down. So to me, it's more maintaining a low level freeze. While internally, yes, there's a bit of a fight and a flight, but also I'm there to protect this kid. It's my job to make sure that they are safe. So if I keep calm, they might keep a little more calm and maybe everybody would be slightly more calm. But I know for my job as a school counselor, it does help. Where I've had some kids, you know, screaming, shouting, kids just in my face just going, trying to do the old, you know, I'm pretty tough. Yeah, it's a fifth grader, fourth grader. So it's not as effective as anything I've seen as a social worker before. They'll say, Kevin, how do you remain so calm? It's not going to help to lose my cool. And yes, I've raised my voice before. Yes, I've lost my temper before in a classroom. Try not to. Try to just keep that presence. But I think in light Life in general, it's helped me a lot to just bark over a bite and just to keep calm. You get an argument with somebody like, he has raised his voice. He does sound pretty angry. He's not using foul language. He's not directly insulting the person. He's making it pretty clear he's not happy. And those seem like very effective tools versus just getting up into somebody's face. You see in Shanghai, this is often the number one weapon people use is the finger to

SPEAKER_01: 51:09

point.

SPEAKER_00: 51:09

Point that finger at him back and forth, back and forth for hours on end. It's very offensive. And you know, it's not going to get you anywhere. So how to express yourself in a way that's not going to lead to the other person losing face. We're back home. There's respect. You know, you give them respect. Everybody wants respect. When you don't have anything, you don't have a house. You don't have a car. You don't have nice clothes. All you have is that feeling of respect. Even though it might be manufactured, you got to respect that.

SPEAKER_02: 51:33

I love that. And it seems like it's something that, you know, either it's been like a skill that you've refined over the years because of your job or whether that was, you know, built into you from birth. But It's such an important sort of like skill to have in the field that you're in, but also in life in general, because I mean, what is the, I can't imagine or think of anything else that can be better than de-escalation, right? In a situation where, but yeah, I'd imagine for a person with a lot of anxiety, you know, a lot of it does come from this sort of one point living a state of fight, flight, or freeze, being in that sort of traumatic situation. And then, you know, how to maneuver that situation is really, really challenging, especially when you're in a very, very high, intense, high energy sort of environment, right? Yeah. So...

SPEAKER_00: 52:27

Well, I try with my kids now a little bit more on a micro level when I work with kids doing character classes at school. We do the whole flight or flight and we also do, you know, the wizard brain and the lizard brain, you know, the amygdala versus the prefrontal cortex. And for kids, you know, why we always get into fights, what happens when we get all of a sudden, okay, because you're... your lizard, your amygdala, your emotional center is just out of control. So your thinking brain is just lying flat on the ground. How do we calm down enough? How do we take some deep breaths? How do we step away to the point where that lizard is actually manageable? The wisdom can come back over there and your brain is actually somewhat able to actually go through the thought process, what's going on. And maybe that just came from what I did when I was younger as a social worker, not really realizing what was actually taking place. But now upon reflection, maybe that was doing, how was I doing it? I really don't even know back then. But now trying to teach my kids this, this simple tool for when they get in a situation, which is hopefully not as scary as it was as a social worker, but to them, it could be just scary. I'm in front of a classroom. I got to speak in front of a class for five minutes about a topic I didn't prepare for. What am I going to do? I'm not going to do anything right. Take a deep breath, splash some cold water in your face, whatever it might be to help reduce that fight or flight need and just kind of freeze for the moment, just a brief moment.

SPEAKER_02: 53:40

Can you tell me what was that turning point for you that made you decide to leave? Was it a particular case or was it anything in particular?

SPEAKER_00: 53:49

Well, I mentioned that one family for four years that cases like that just slowly wore on me, wore me down, I should say. But there was one in particular and this was the hardest case I had. And it was right towards the end, which makes sense. That's probably the reason why it was towards the end. But it was a 16-year-old boy and it was domestic violence, theft in the home with his mother, stepfather, and actually he was 17 years old. And he had a girlfriend and a baby. His baby is about six months old. His life was going nowhere. Basically, I got involved. I helped him to drop out of school because he really wanted to get a job. He got a job at a bait shop part-time. That was a court requirement. A few months later, he'd go back to court again. The court requirement was to show record that he had a job, had a lawful employment. I called him up and said, you need to get out there and do this. He said, okay, Mr. Kevin, no problem. I'll do it tonight. Tomorrow is a court hearing. The next morning, I got a call from my supervisor saying that he was shot and killed. And he was a kid that I worked with about six months. We started developing a small relationship. I remember coming out of the school when we helped assign him out of the school. There's a teacher was stuck in the snow and him and I pushed a teacher out and just had a few laughs, little conversations like that. And seeing over those few months, how we started getting a better relationship with his mother and with his stepfather and just, you know, getting to hold his little tiny baby who was six months old, getting to meet his girlfriend. Yeah, it was very on the minimal surface level relationship, but just seeing, you know, he's more than a case number. He was a human being. He was a kid who was in a tough situation and he seemed to be turning things around. But unfortunately, he was shot and killed. And at that time, I didn't really know what happened. My boss just said, just prepare for it, Kevin. I just want to let you know about that. You lost one of your kids and it's a tough thing. And I remember showing up to the office and we always have a police officer on site to offer added security. The police officer said, hey, I heard about one of your kids getting killed. And I said, yeah. I told him what happened. I called him up and told him he had to go to the office, to his bait shop to get proof of his employment and he's like oh so you basically killed him and me whoa what and he said i think he's trying to make a joke of it you know it's a dark sense of humor but i took it to heart because indirectly i did have him killed because i was the one who sent him to the bait shop to request this statement of ours and it was hard painful and of course my supervisor later said kevin you know that you had nothing to do with this and i know i didn't but it was still hard to accept that and it came out later on during the trial that when he went to the bait shop he told the I need hours, proof of employment. But she was apparently doing something illegal in the shop. And she was worried that once he got to the courthouse, he would tell the judge what was really happening. There was no motivation for him to do that, but she was paranoid. And she pulled a gun on him and shot him. Unfortunately, he had his own gun. So many of my clients had their own guns. She took that out, planted it in his hand and tried to make it look like a robbery gone bad. Fortunately, she was found guilty. She went to jail for about 30 years. But five days later, it was his funeral. And I was just terrified. I've never been to the funeral of a child before. And I was worried also, are they going to accuse me of killing their son? Was it my fault that their son lay in a casket? And I remember driving around the funeral parking lot five, six times, just terrified. And I finally got the strength to go in there. And I saw the mother and I know what to say. And she gave me a big, giant hug. The stepfather also gave me a really big hug. And they said, you know, hey, you know, they didn't even say, you know, we don't blame you. We don't blame you for this. I don't even need to say that. They just said, you know, thank you for everything you've done. You know, you were there for us. You knew our son. You knew that, you know, the good qualities he had, not just the negative ones. But then going over and seeing him lying in his coffin with a fishing rod across his chest because he was still a child. And then looking over and seeing his girlfriend and her asking me, what are we going to do? She's sitting there holding her little six-month-old child. And I'm like, I have no answer for you. No idea what you're going to do. So that was a pretty big breaking point for me. And I think that case more or less broke me going in there, seeing what happened, hearing that police officer. And then also when I was at the funeral, looking over and seeing his biological father, Shoes and socks off, cutting his toenails and joking with his boys about God knows what, but just saying, maybe that's why your son is in a coffin right now, because you never took part in his child's life that you're in there. Maybe he's got his own demons he's dealing with, but there was just a lot going on. And then I think a month later, I had one other child, another case, just a 12-year-old boy. And he was a repeat sex offender who was, of course, molested and raped when he was a child, when he was eight years old. But he had sexually molested and raped four or five victims each time, each victim. like 40 to 50 times.

SPEAKER_02: 58:16

He was 12 years old?

SPEAKER_00: 58:17

He was 12 years old. Yes. And he spoke like a little girl. It might just be he hadn't gone through puberty yet. And that's why he spoke that way. But he'd go from sex offender home to sex offender home, program to program to program, often getting kicked out because he's doing things that are inappropriate. We'd have our meetings. He'd sit there and talk about a ghost who tried to saw my head from my shoulders. And he said, oh, he's halfway through your neck right now, Mr. Kevin. Oh my gosh, I cannot bear to look anymore. It's so disgusting. And I don't know if he had underlying mental health issues that are not been diagnosed or if he's just having a good laugh because he didn't know what was going on. But at one point, nobody would take him. They thought he was such a high risk that they had to keep him in jail. And the court once again asked the social worker, which again surprised me, you know, we have two options. One is to keep him in jail indefinitely. And they said, you know, like a caged animal, which I thought was not appropriate. Or we release him to home. And his home was his father, who was a single dad, working father and below average IQ, which meant he didn't always make the choices for raising his son. The people he invited to his home weren't always the healthiest choices to have around his son. And I thought, if we release him home with an ankle monitor, which will ensure that we can track him, when father's not home, the boy will more than likely find a new victim. He will rape that victim. We're going to have one other child that's now broken and damaged. So I thought, we need to keep him in jail for the safety of society, the better of society. And yes, in a way, we're giving up on him temporarily, but that is a choice. And I remember telling the court that, and they said, okay, okay, due to the social worker's response, we will keep him in jail. And the father came by and the father said, not in a threatening way. This wasn't like he was a pretty gentle guy. He said, you gave up my son, you shook his head. And I remember thinking, you don't know what I'm really thinking, dad. Because actually I thought, no, we don't want to give up on your son. We need to euthanize your son. And for me as a social worker to think that we need to euthanize a child, that was for me to think, okay, I'm no longer for this field. I need to move elsewhere. So those two, I think those two cases are the ones that basically sent me over the edge and thought Okay, it's time to...

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:15

This is so difficult. How did you manage to, over time, start to build trust in human beings again, in people in general?

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:27

Good question, because I know, I didn't mention this, but probably my last year, last six months, whenever I'd see anybody, let's see, I see a child playing outside, I always think, hmm, and what is he up to? Is he casing the joint? Is he trying to find out, oh, is anybody home right now? He's playing ball in front of the house. But it's because he wants to see, if no one's home, I can tell my older brother to come by and he could rob the place later on or is this I see a man playing with his son I'm like is that really his son is that a potential kidnapper is he doing something wrong to his child seeing a young girl dressed up oh my gosh you know in two years she's going to be maybe a prostitute maybe she's going to be going down this route over here what poor choices you know or is she going to get raped by this person or that person it was a healthy mindset so I decided to leave the profession and go somewhere so far away that I would understand nothing that was taking place and I did love working with kids I still enjoyed that it's like I want to work with children but I want to working up children in a place that they are not going to be so broken, that there's going to be a chance to possibly help these kids in a way that will see them grow positively. So I chose to go overseas in English as a second language, ESL teaching, which brought me to Korea for one year. So I thought if people around me saying horrible things, I'll have no idea. It can't even bother me. So I chose to go deaf and mute in a way. I lost the ability to communicate. So I lived in a different country where I couldn't share and I couldn't get myself involved in situations happening around me. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:44

No. Have you ever been to therapy yourself or try to see if there's a possibility of some kind of trauma, like post-traumatic stress disorder that you've potentially been living with?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:55

I have not. No, I know one time when I was dating my wife, we went to a psychiatrist doing a study on cross-cultural relationships. And I remember sitting in the waiting room. My wife was in there being interviewed, just having somebody sit next to me and wondering, what are they here for? Are they being diagnosed for something? Do they think that I'm mentally unstable? What is happening? I really don't don't know. And that's probably the closest I've ever come to seeing a therapist. And I'll be honest, I have not really felt the need. You mentioned, for example, any kind of PTSD. Have I seen any? Maybe because it's not obvious to me. Maybe it's just become who I am. But maybe it's also due to my own upbringing, which was such a stable upbringing and having that family around me, even though I don't think I shared the struggles that I had with my mom and dad. Talked about the challenge of being a social worker. It was a choice I made. I wasn't doing it to be a Joan of Arc. I didn't want to go home and say, oh, mom, you know, the sacrifice that I make this so hard over here no that was so good for Christmas we're talking about of course I tell them some of the wild stories and things I experienced but I was very easy to maybe switch it off at that point and just go and that was just my family maybe that was enough to ground me and then going overseas to Korea maybe it was another way just to completely forget about it and live overseas and it's a whole other world or maybe if I stayed in Ohio I could have gone into a different profession or maybe I could just go in a different direction maybe I would have gone into management maybe I would have gone into private counseling so it would have been harder to move beyond what I experienced. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:17

So right now you are a counselor for students in an international school here, as far as I know. How different is it for you now?

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:27

It is extremely different. One, because it's clinical. Let's say as a social worker, 20% of the time when you're at the desk, then I'm not a desk person. It's very hard for me to sit still for an all day. Let's say, for example, data entry, whatever it might be. As a social worker, you're in the prisons. You're often going to the homes. You're in mental health facilities. You're in the schools. I really enjoyed that. And I think as a counselor, it's a mini world of that, but it's all in safe environments. For example, I'm at my desk at the school for about 20% of the time. The classrooms. I'm on the playground. I'm in the hallway. I'm in my little counseling room with a kid. But these are all, like I said, clinical in the sense that I'm not in the person's home. For example, a child maybe who's dealing with, you know, mothers and fathers who might be verbally, physically or emotionally abusive or just absent anyway. If I was in their home, it'd probably be a cleaner home because the kids I'm working with are coming from middle to upper class neighborhoods where in America it was lower class. So, you know, an environmental home is a big difference, even though it might be similar problems, but that despair and poverty, you don't see it as much because maybe it's got a nicer veneer and polish over here due to the financial status.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:33

Interesting. And also, I guess to an extent as well, like the parents would be more open to listening to the feedback that you would provide because, you know, if they are going to be spending that much money to send their kids to a good international school, they obviously have to an extent a good intention for their child too. I mean, they wouldn't allocate that kind of money that way if they didn't really care for the well-being of their child. So perhaps, I mean, I could be wrong in saying this, but um the kind of challenges that these kids may be going through could more be because out of a lack of awareness maybe the parents have not not with the not with a negative intention right

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:09

yeah it could be i think he's mentioned as well and because he's you know the tuition is quite high at an international school so a lot of parents sending their kids here these parents have come from better backgrounds they have higher education where a lot of kids back in the u.s i worked with came from parents who often had very little education themselves these where 16-year-old kids are having their own baby. Now these kids are 35, 36 years old, but they're still 16 when they have their baby. They still never learned as they're growing up. They did not have proper parental figures teaching them this. Where a lot of kids I work with now, the majority of them don't come from situations like that. Most of the homes are pretty stable. The parents did not have them when they're 15 years old, 16, 17, 18. Drug issues do not exist. There could be alcohol issues. And now for absentee parenting, it's often due to work. For example, during COVID-19, a lot of parents were locked out. You might not have a dad for three years, four years, which is a major impact for a child, but it's very different than your dad is in jail. Or your dad lives on the block, doesn't want to see you because he doesn't love you because he doesn't even know you exist. So that is a massive difference. Did

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:12

you notice any cultural-related differences that children may be having? Or the way that it's being handled as well, could it be different also culturally?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:24

I think for our kids, the biggest issue is anxiety, the stress that comes with the amount of work they must do because they have just so much homework, so many after school programs and the need to be the best because it's a very competitive society. Where back in the US with my kids as a social worker, they weren't so bothered with academics. So their stress was just the violent home environment they lived in. Not as much, you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to accomplish that and the other. So that's very different in that aspect. But a big culture difference is mental health in China. It's still something you shouldn't really talk about. So I know when some people hear, wait a second, my child's seeing Mr. Kevin. Who is he? He's a counselor. What? Why is he seeing a counselor? No, no, no, no, no, no. Academics is what matters. My child should not be removed from class. They should be in the classroom. So we, of course, we always try to not interfere with their education because that's what they're there for. That is the primary goal. But for kids who are struggling to focus, they cannot concentrate. They cannot sit still or because they cause me problems in the classroom that nobody likes them due to their challenge emotionally, socially. But my I said, yeah, but your child, unfortunately, the behavior they show is not leadership skills. It's hurting their friendships. Kids do not like them. Kids find them loud. Kids find them obnoxious. The teacher is constantly reminding them to do this, do that, and the other. That is interfering with their education. They're coming to school and they don't want to be here anymore because they feel that nobody likes them. And if they don't want to be at school, a place that should be a safe environment for them, are they going to want to learn here? No, they're not. So we need to look at this issue over here. How can we make them more socially, emotionally well-adjusted? And that will actually help them academically as well. So trying to convince a parent of that is pretty important. Another one is not so much nowadays because there's not as many one-child families. But still, if there's only two children, the parents still say, my child is the center of the universe. And in their home, that's understandable. So let's say there's a problem at school and they say, well, you know, other people are being too sensitive. They need to understand my child's needs. And I say, as teachers, as educators, yes, we should. We do our best. But the children around them, they're other human beings as well. They're other children So you might think that your child is the center of the universe when actually your child is just a single star among millions and billions of other stars all floating amongst each other. We need to work out and find a way that your child, your star, can work with those other stars. And if they are actually triggering those other stars in a way those stars are pushing back, how can we reduce those triggers? At least make your child aware of it so they can say, all right, well, actually, that's who I am. I don't want to change. Or maybe I could adjust it slightly over here because I actually want to be close to those other stars and I don't want to be pushed away. So trying to convince parents of that isn't the easiest, but it's also my job to find the correct language for the correct verbiage to make that clear without insulting parents, without just jumping and saying, oh, your child has, you know, issue ABC. Let's put medication on them because I'm not a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. That is not my job. Ethically, it is wrong. Let's say, explain that what I can do, what I'm there for, what we can do for your child. And if we go down further down the road, what might that be? I don't know. That might've been a little convoluted at the end over there. I apologize.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:26

I like that though. No, I think that's really well said. That's something that I would think based on what you said. But let me pass that question to you. What do you think needs to be done on a larger scale?

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:04

On a larger scale? Wow. Yeah. That would require, I don't think, I think quite a few drinks and a whole night of conversation with a little bit of research beforehand to actually think myself, let me say it out loud, closer about that. But yes, I think it's listening to people. Communication is so important. I'm sure you've talked to any teacher in the world. They say the same thing. People listen to the school board. It's a school board listening to teachers who are with these kids. eight hours a day, six hours a day. So myself as a counselor, who is the most important source of information? Often it's the teacher because they see the kids so much. And if I don't listen to them, I say, well, I'm the counselor. I understand what's going on. How am I going to understand that without getting their feedback? Then again, if I don't listen to the child, how am I actually going to know what's going on? The child's like, you know, nobody listens to me. Nobody cares what I'm thinking. How important is that? And of course, there's the parent as well. Parents like, yeah, but I've been with the child for the past 10 years, 12 years. I can see how they might have gone up and down. I can help you to reflect as well. So I guess it's talking to every single person involved, not ignoring anybody, but at the same time being realistic. Not every person has the right to share 100%. No, we take that back. That's not the best way to say it. Let's say if everybody has an equal view and equal opinion, that's also not necessarily the case. For a mother who has lost three children already, has some serious drug addictions, has violently hurt her child, or the father who has raped their child, do they have, is their opinion as valid as the person, the social worker, the judge, the teacher, the aunt, who's trying to help. I don't think it is, but we try to make everybody happy, make everybody exactly equal. And everybody's opinion is validated and real. I don't agree. I see every life is equal. Every life is the same. I don't agree. I've seen some horrible people that I don't think deserve to live. And that is maybe callous, maybe cold, but I think it's reality. But how to bring that up in the government, how to get that involved in our system.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:55

I really don't know. I wish I had an answer. I think if we were more decent human beings in general, I think, unfortunately, the average goodwill is just pretty limited. At the end of the day, I've got my own children to worry about. I've got to make sure my son, my daughter are doing it over here. I've got to expend energy for somebody else as well. People just don't have that. And I don't blame people for that. That's understandable. But until the average goodwill of the human being sitting next to you increases, I don't think things are going to change for any time soon. We've got to become better people. generally, society as a whole is going to lift. But that's very idealistic, very rainbow lollipops and whatnot. I was a social worker before. I'm still an idealist, even though it might be hard to find someday.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:38

No, it's true. And I think also definitely these systems, some of them are still very archaic. They run on a way that it was run back in the early 1900s, 1800s even. It's just not applicable in today's world. The kind of issues that we have that kids face in deal with today are so different from back then. So why is it being treated the same way, right? So yeah, definitely. It's like fundamentally needs to be changed. The entire law book around helping little children and looking at what's really in the interest of the child's best has to be revised all from the beginning, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:18

Absolutely. So where do you even begin with that? I couldn't tell you. I know for a lot of my kids when they were reaching the age of emancipation, when they were 16, 17, years old. And I saw no future for him. I often told him, you know, join the military. And looking back on it, that was 2000, let's say 1999, 2000, 2001. And then what happened next? The war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq. And I wonder, did some of my kids actually listen to me? Not only did they listen to me, but did they choose that route? Because it's an option for a lot of uneducated people who lack discipline, but they get an education. They can learn discipline, but also they are going into a dangerous situation. Are they the kind of people you really want representing you in a war? Because they are all actually doing what they own issues over there. But there was an option. But if I could do it again, and I was actually leader of the world in general, maybe having something similar to the Peace Corps, where the options are not just the Peace Corps, but also peace of education. You must volunteer for a year as an educator. You must volunteer for a year in the military. But you have these options available, education, military, Peace Corps, the government pays for it. Where does this money come from? I have no idea. That's another challenge. But I think it teaches us civic duty and the importance of giving back. And maybe we have more of that in us. We can kind of start giving back more and helping people in the future, which could transfer down to the lower levels. But again, I could use a whole bottle of whiskey for this conversation about five hours.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:41

Amazing. Amazing story. Kevin, thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing your experience and stuff with us. There's so much that we can take away from this and just the story in itself, right? The essence of what you were saying. It's so empowering and powerful. So thank you for being on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:58

My pleasure, Jenica. And I wish I could have been more inspirational and said, everybody, you know, go for it, become a social worker and make the world a better place. And if you still want to do that, go for it. I think it's an opportunity. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:15

I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:37

to

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:45

Multispective.