045 Attachment: Road From Seclusion to Secure Relationships

In this episode, we dive deep into the realm of relationships with Rita Bliven. Rita opens up about her personal journey navigating the challenges of unhealthy attachments, born from her parents' messy divorce. Together, we unpack the signs of unhealthy attachments and Rita shares actionable strategies for fostering healthier connections. It's a conversation you won't want to miss if you're ready to break free from old patterns and cultivate more fulfilling relationships. So, grab your notebook and join us for some invaluable insights on building healthier, happier connections!

https://www.canyonsandfireworks.com

Transcript

UNKNOWN: 0:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 0:02

Hi guys, Jenica here from Multispective and I'm here to share with you a brand new episode. I interview Rita Blevins. She was taken away from her mother's house to her father's house and then several years down back home to her mother's place. In that process, she was having a lot of sort of identity crisis. She ended up being very introverted and spent a lot of her time just processing her own life on her own. So she talks about this concept of attachment and the different types of attachment styles that exist. I believe we all have a different type of attachment style and in this episode we talk about how your upbringing can affect it what are the signs of a certain type of attachment style and what can we do to have a secure and healthier form of attachment so tune in listen drop a comment and let us know what you think really really excited for you guys to hear it and i hope you guys enjoy it and learn something from this Rita. Hi. It is so, so lovely to meet you. And I'm so happy to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for being here with us.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03

Thank you so much for having me on. I'm super excited.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06

Me too. I think this is going to be a really interesting topic that we share with our audience today. It is one for the books. And we'll definitely go and talk a little bit about your book as well later on. But it's a topic that, as I mentioned off the record, it is something that anyone and everyone can relate It's applicable to all kinds of relationships and even your relationship with yourself. And I think this is going to be so filled with useful, practical tools and takeaways. And I'm just super excited to share this conversation here with you. So Rita, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, your childhood, where you're from?

SPEAKER_00: 1:50

It all starts with the childhood. So that's a heavy question.

UNKNOWN: 1:56

Bye.

SPEAKER_00: 1:57

come from, you know, a mother from the United States and a father that was an immigrant from Mexico. And my mom was from Pennsylvania and she moved to California for work and met my father and they fell in love and had me and got married. But unfortunately, the marriage dissolved very quickly. And my father, it was the 80s, and my father was afraid he wouldn't have any custody rights against a a full-blown citizen. So out of fear, he fled to Mexico and took me with him and severed all ties with my mom and her side of the family. And I spent the next two years in Mexico. And even though I am an American citizen, my first language was Spanish. And I bonded with my father and his side of the family. And then when I was three years old, my mom got me back. So Very early on, I didn't have any stability, and anyone that I bonded with, I was separated from. So as a baby, I bonded with my mother, and then I was separated from her by my father. And then I bonded with my father and his side of the family, and I was separated from them when my mother got me back. So my earliest memories are of being in a new country with people that didn't speak my language in a family that, even though they were my family, my biological family, I had no connection And so that was the beginning of my life. And that is why I am so interested in attachment theory, because attachment theory really explains how those happenings can affect an individual and future relationships.

SPEAKER_02: 3:43

Wow. And there's so much to unpack here. Really, really interesting. But of course, you are very, very young at this point. So you don't have a say or decision making with regards what is in the best interest of you at that moment. And obviously, to an extent, it makes sense, maybe why your dad did what he did. He wanted to keep you close, but your mom as well. And it's a battle of the adults, and then the kids end up getting involved. What about your siblings? at the time? What was, what was going on with them?

SPEAKER_00: 4:15

So I have kind of an interesting story. So my mom has actually been married four times. And so when I was born, she already had, um, a son, my older brother from her previous marriage, technically we're half, half brother and sister, but pretty much the, my mother's children are my siblings. They're the siblings that I grew up with. So my brother, um, was actually shipped back to Pennsylvania with, um, to be raised by my grandparents while my mom for two years tried to get me back. And then when she got me back, um, she went to Pennsylvania and then me and my older brother grew up together. And then my mom married again. Um, and eight years later I had my sister and then two years later I had my younger brother. So we're all half siblings. We, you know, we have different fathers. Well, my, my two youngest siblings have the same father, but, um, but we consider each other, you know, full siblings and so my older brother was very much so affected by the situation as well um but he had such a strong bond with my our grandparents that he just he just bonded with them and so he has a very healthy attachment considering considering he was separated from our mother um he's he's coped in a more healthy way than than i did

SPEAKER_02: 5:41

yeah i wonder whether they could be somewhat gender-based. Is it possible as

SPEAKER_00: 5:47

well? I think it's certainly possible, but I also think that even though my brother was separated from my mother, he was a little bit older and it was explained to him because he's three years older than me. If you get into the true attachment theory, it's believed that attachment is really from six months old until two years old. He was a little bit older than that. when he was shipped to my grandparents so he had already established a lasting bond with my mother and it was explained to him and he understood more than a baby would you know he was still very young that he was with my grandparents temporarily and then they still talked with my mother they still had phone calls and so that attachment was still nurtured from a distance but still nurtured nonetheless whereas I was completely separated every time. When my father took me to Mexico, it was what's considered an international parental kidnapping. He had no contact with my mother or her family, and I had no contact with them. And then when my mother got me back, you know, she was afraid that he would do it again. And so she went to great lengths to separate me from my father. She even changed my name. And so there was no, the connection was truly severed. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 7:37

No, I hear you in the sense that with your situation, it was indefinitely, at least until the point you knew. So there was no point of return. There was no plan for return at that point. And even if there was at that point, you were too young to understand that. But that was sort of like the narrative at the time. So when you were being taken by your dad, you were not being told that you're going to go back to mom, right? I'm curious, though, as to... How did this all roll out? I mean, was the divorce between your mom and dad really bad? Is that why he had to basically kidnap you?

SPEAKER_00: 8:14

It was. Yes, it was. So my father, he's totally recovered now. But he did get involved in drugs and alcohol. And in his... intoxicated state at times would get violent with my mother. And so there was some, I'm sure there was some strong language at the time that my mom used, like, we need to get away from you or, you know, you're not safe. And so, you know, he began to fear not having access to me at all. Now, that was never my mother's intent. And there's also cultural differences, you know, that not to stereotype too much, but I'm sure as a Mexican man, he didn't like being limited at all from his child. And he really did not want a divorce. My mom had made the healthy decision to divorce my father because, like I said, he had gotten abusive and was involved in drugs and alcohol. So it was a healthy decision for my mother, but he did not want the divorce. So if you have a person in the Yeah. Okay, so let's,

SPEAKER_02: 9:42

let's dig a little bit into the attachment style. So our listeners can understand this a bit better. And then I want to definitely go back into the story from that point on. So you mentioned there's two umbrella attachment styles, one being the healthy, one being the unhealthy. you may call it secure and insecure so the secure one being raised by you know a very loving attentive caring present set of parents and the unhealthy there's a couple of subcategories I think there's three if I'm not mistaken where there's the anxious the avoidant but even within that there's more layers to it tell us a little bit about those unhealthy styles

SPEAKER_00: 10:23

sure absolutely so I have to give credit to I think it's Mary Answorth. So attachment theory was first developed by a Dr. Bowlby, I think is his name. And he published a paper in 1958. And then Mary Answorth developed upon his theory and really identified the different attachment styles. So have to give credit where credit's due. They're great researchers and doctors to research. But Mary basically realized that within the unhealthy or insecure attachment well let me back up let me back up so secure attachment the main theory and I think this is so amazing is that a child really only needs one primary caregiver now of course the ideal is two loving present attentive caregivers I mean that's I mean it takes two people to create a human so So I think that that's a reflection of the best, most ideal, perfect situation. But our creator, in his infinite wisdom, made it so that we really only need one. And I was just thinking about this the other day. He gives us two eyes, two arms, two hands, two legs, and so that we can still function. We can still see if something happens to one of our eyes. Is it the most ideal? No.

SPEAKER_03: 11:54

But

SPEAKER_00: 11:55

thank God we can still we can still function with one. And so attachment theory, the major principle is that a child needs to develop a lasting bond with at least one primary caregiver that's attentive and loving and all of that. And from that, there is a foundation of security, a foundation of security. And then from that foundation of security, the child is free to explore, to ask questions and to develop mainly.

SPEAKER_03: 12:26

Then

SPEAKER_00: 12:27

you get into the insecure attachment styles. The three major causes of insecure attachment are abuse, neglect, and then separation. Separation is the one that's not highlighted as often. So most people are aware that if you're abused or neglected, you're probably going to have some developmental challenges. Very few people really associate separation, extreme separation, I mean of course if you're if your caregiver goes to the grocery store and comes back. That doesn't count. But, you know, extreme separation, kind of how we already talked about in my story. Most people don't equate that with developmental issues, but it's very much a real thing. And sometimes it's because of death or illness. You know, if there's an extreme illness, and let's say a mother that bonded with a child is going through chemotherapy in the hospital, that's still a prolonged, dramatic separation. So there's all sorts of scenarios that create the separation. But it's more than just going to the grocery store and coming back, going to work and coming back. It's a more extreme separation. So then to answer your question, the three major types of insecure attachment are anxious attachment. And I think the name really says a lot. So an anxious attachment, a person dealing with extreme anxious attachment is going to be very aware that their needs aren't met and be anxious to to get them met. So they're the person that in a relationship says, you don't pay me enough attention. You don't listen to me. Listen to me. Pay me attention. You know, they're anxious to get their needs met. Then there's avoidant attachment, and they're kind of the opposite. They believe, I can't even depend on you people to meet my needs, so I'm going to meet my own needs. And so they're avoidant. They're avoidant with other people. They're like, I don't need you to meet my needs. I meet my own needs. And so that presents relational problems in different ways.

SPEAKER_03: 14:30

And then

SPEAKER_00: 14:30

the third one is what's called disorganized. And it's a combination of the two. And the third one is the most rare. And it's funny to me because technically we all do both. We all have moments of being anxious about getting our needs met. We all have moments of being avoidant and saying, I can't even expect anything from you people. I'm just going to take care of myself. We all have those moments. But the anxious attachment person, it's going to be a reoccurring theme in their life. And the avoidant person, it's going to be a reoccurring theme in their life. And so that's what makes it so interesting about the disorganized because the disorganized may sound healthy because sometimes they're anxious and sometimes they're avoidant. They may sound healthy, but it has more to do with extremes. You know, a secure person might say, well, you know what? My husband's been working a lot and my husband's been working a lot. been dealing with some other major issue, like maybe his mom is sick, and I haven't been getting the attention that he normally gives me, and I need to express that, and I'm feeling a little down because of that. The disorganized is going to be more dramatic and feel more threatened in the changing circumstance, both in an avoidant way and in an anxious way. So it swings more dramatically. And so that's the difference between disorganized and a secure attachment, because they both do both, but it's the extremes and then also the risky behavior. So an avoidant, I'm sorry, a secure partner, person will say I'm not getting my needs met let's have a rational conversation let me articulate that whereas someone in the unhealthy category may engage in risky behaviors like I'm calling off work today so that we can talk so that you know so that I can get my needs met and then you know you can't do that all the time maybe once a year you know you can do that if you're constantly you know not functioning because of your anxiety of Right.

SPEAKER_02: 16:48

That's a lot of information there. So you say that you were more avoidant attachment, right? So yours was in relation to the separation. Although you do say that you still had one parent at the time, the losing of another parent still kind of caused this. Was it also to an extent because your father wasn't, even though he had taken you away, you didn't feel like he was as present or you didn't feel that sense of security that I still have a guardian a caretaker present and there for me

SPEAKER_00: 17:27

so that's an interesting question because I don't have any memories of being in Mexico I don't have any memories of the separations so I was three years old when my mom got me back and then raised by her and her family and my earliest memories are from around the age of three now part of My healing journey is reconnecting with my father. So what I have surmised is that my father and his family are just, I mean, just the stereotypical, huge, loving Hispanic family. My dad is one of 11. And so I had a lot of caregivers, not just my grandmother, but my great grandmother, my dad's sisters, and then my dad. And so I think that if I, from what, and no one will ever know for sure, but my guess is that had my father taken me from my mother and then I stayed in Mexico, I think I would probably have a pretty secure attachment. Because there was so much love and so many caregivers and my father was present. And it doesn't have to be mother or father. It could be grandparent or aunt. But I had so much love and so much, security in my huge family, I think I probably would have been fine. Not to say that my father's better than my mother. That's not the issue. It's just that the foundation of love was strong and true attachment happens, like I said, from six months old to two years old. And so I was pretty much in the same place for that time period. My dad took me to Mexico when I was a baby and my mom got me back when I was three. So from the truly attachment developmental age range I was in the same place with the same people that were all very loving and so I think I probably would have been okay I would have been alienated from my country and my mother and as I cognitively understood that that may have caused some other issues

SPEAKER_03: 19:39

but

SPEAKER_00: 19:40

I think my attachment would have been more secure

SPEAKER_02: 19:44

interesting

SPEAKER_00: 19:45

yeah

SPEAKER_02: 19:47

and so you were basically just sort of at the cusp of like you know um basically developing that attachment style and securing that attachment style, whatever it be. And then that move was sort of like throwing you right in the midst of it again. And now you're in this new environment, possibly also in a loving environment with your mom, but just in this absolutely unknown place, feeling super foreign. And sort of just, yeah, being back in the throes of it. What was it like being raised by your mom thereafter? I know the language barriers, but in In other aspects, how was your relationship with your mom and your mom's side of the family?

SPEAKER_00: 20:28

So good, ultimately. So my mom is also from a large family by American standards. She's one of five. And her parents had a hundred acre farm and they gave all their kids land on the farm. So I grew up with lots of aunts and uncles and cousins and my grandparents. And then my mom remarried to my stepfather, whose family lived a mile down the road. And so his family was also very loving and and present. And so I think that that was a huge, huge blessing. But what happened was, is that I was not able, I knew I was loved and I knew I was supported, but I had difficulty feeling loved and I felt very alienated. And I looked different. So, you know, my mom, like I said, was married four times and my brother's father and then my two younger siblings' were both white and so my brothers and sisters are blonde haired and blue eyed

SPEAKER_02: 21:28

oh wow

SPEAKER_00: 21:31

yeah and I have more Mexican features and you know it's February here right now so I don't have any tan but I get pretty dark when I tan I live here in North Carolina so I'm tan most of the year and I have darker hair and just darker features so I very much stood out in family pictures and then just with the language even though I learned English very quickly it was still it was still very much in my recent memory that you know I have this extra struggle that my siblings and cousins didn't have and and then it was validated by my feelings my feelings that you know I know logically these people love me and I know logically that I that this is my mom and that I belong here but I don't feel And I have trouble feeling their love. Now, the major exception to all of that is my grandmother, my mom's mom. For whatever reason, I have bonded with her very quickly. And so I wasn't completely alienated from love. But just generally speaking, considering that I was in my mother's house, surrounded by my mother's family, that's generally loving, I did not attach. like a normal child would

SPEAKER_03: 22:56

have.

SPEAKER_00: 22:56

But I did have, you know, I say precursors to healing, like with my relationship with my grandmother, and then later with my younger sister.

SPEAKER_02: 23:07

Very interesting. I also find it really, at least from what I'm understanding that you were very much welcome by both family members. But But I also find it very interesting that you have repeatedly said that I In a way, we're kind of justifying the fact that you were being loved. I was being loved. I knew it. Logically, practically, I knew it, but I didn't feel it. But I knew it, but I didn't feel it. So I'm curious as to what's kind of like inciting this? this sort of inner little battle, this inner dialogue.

SPEAKER_00: 23:45

Yeah. So I will say it's not good. You know, when you're a child, there are already innate insecurities. I mean, you know, my goodness, the adolescent years, there are innate insecurities. But to add broken attachment in the mix is, it just creates a lot of And a lot of anxiety. So I will say I also suffered from depression and anxiety, which is interesting because, you know, you can have avoidant attachment, not anxious attachment, but yet still suffer from anxiety. Right. You know, different from anxious attachment. And so, you know, I had trouble feeling receiving love. I had a hard time knowing my sense of self or purpose. And I feared intimacy. Anytime anybody got too close, I felt extremely uncomfortable. But at the same time, I suffered from anxiety. You know, I'm still a little jittery, you know, as you have seen on this

SPEAKER_03: 24:53

podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 24:55

But I was very jittery. I mean, it was like a physical anxiety. And then, you know, from a very young age, I mean, I think my youngest memory of being down or depressed was in first grade. So, I mean, I suffered from depression and it may It makes sense because, you know, secure attachment really is all about love. It says, you know, I am loved and protected and cared for. And so then I'm free to develop. And so if you don't, even if you're loved and you should have that foundation of love, if for whatever reason you don't, then you don't have the foundation of life. I mean, I, it's kind of funny, but you know, and I know not everyone that's physically intimate is in love, but it's kind of funny that life starts from lovemaking,

SPEAKER_01: 25:50

you know?

SPEAKER_00: 25:51

And so how much more does the development of a person need to start from a foundation of love? And so even though I was loved, I didn't have that foundation of love. And so I was just very, just unsure about everything. I mean, just, And then also, I didn't look like my family. And I do think there is... just an innate belonging when you look like the people that you're growing up with.

SPEAKER_02: 26:24

You

SPEAKER_00: 26:24

know, it's, it's like, I may not know what I'm going to be when I grow up, but I know that I have my mom's job. You know, you know what I mean? And so, you know, for a child, that's important to say, you know, to say, well, I may not know this or that about the future or about adulthood or about real life, but I know who I am in my family. And I, basically didn't have that. I knew that I was the one that looked different, that talked different, that wasn't there when I was a baby. And even though I couldn't articulate that, I felt it. And so then I also just felt completely confused about so many other aspects of life. I mean, I remember being asked a question and it would just be immediate. chaos within myself, you know, just be immediately like, you know, well, I think this sometimes and I think that sometimes I don't know which one to say. And so, you know, and that's, I mean, we've all had that some that I had that a lot. I didn't know how to express myself.

SPEAKER_02: 27:34

So do you think that, and again, this could be a chicken and an egg, which one comes first? Or do they just come in hand in hand? But do you think that attachment styles can have something to do with self identity too?

SPEAKER_00: 27:46

Oh, absolutely. And so, you know, we do not know who we are when we're bored. We look to our caregivers to not clone. I mean, we don't say I'm going to be exactly like my caregiver, but let's face it. How many people do you know that, you know, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? You know, wow, she looks like her mom. She talks like her mom. She's similar in personality. And so it's not that it has to happen that way, but we do glean certain characteristics from our primary caregivers and or respond even if we don't necessarily emulate them you know we respond in some way like you know mom's very caring and so I'm caring in a different way but caring nonetheless or you know my dad's very talkative he likes to talk about sports well I'm talkative about politics you know or whatever you know but it's we emulate our primary caregivers on some level. And, you know, there's the whole debate nature versus nature or nature versus nurture. And so, you know, some of the argument is, well, you know, just genetically certain traits are passed on. And I do think that's true, but I also think that nurture is a big part of it. And so, you know, when your primary caregivers are around you nurturing certain characteristics, we develop our personalities. And I know, you know, there's all sorts of science where, you know, a child is adopted and they're totally, they never knew their biological parents, but then they meet their biological parents and they're exactly like them. And so that's really a case for nature.

SPEAKER_03: 29:31

And

SPEAKER_00: 29:32

then the opposite can be said where there are twins and one twin is raised by the biological parents and another twin is for whatever reason, separated and raised by different, a different family. And they later on meet and they're kind of You know, completely, clearly their upbringing had a bigger effect on their personality than their genetics. And so that's a case for nurture. And so we don't know the exact science, you know, it's, it's not an exact, exact science, but pretty much anybody can say, yes, the people that raise you help form your identity on some level. So, but there has to be that foundation of love for you to be able to, to, you know, to process all of that. So I was not able to process all of that. So I just sort of lived in a state of uneasiness and confusion.

SPEAKER_02: 31:11

Was that, would you say, in any way perpetuated by your surroundings, like in school as well, or your teachers? Did they sort of like enhance or make that confusion even a bit stronger for you in a way?

SPEAKER_00: 31:23

Absolutely. So I ended up in Western Pennsylvania in the 80s. And there were no Mexicans or people of color. I mean, it just, in my elementary school, I was the not white kid.

SPEAKER_01: 31:41

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 31:41

And I really wasn't, I don't think I was ever bullied for race, but I think that it was easy to pick on me because I was different.

SPEAKER_02: 31:52

And typically for a person that's avoidant attached generally tend to sort of rely on themselves. Like you mentioned earlier, they don't believe that there's anyone else necessarily they can fall back on. So, you know, as you're going through this identity sort of like shift, your name being changed, you're going through your own anxiety and your own depression at this time. And with this sort of attachment style, did you feel like you only had yourself to fall back on? What What did it look like for you? What did avoidant attachment look like for you personally, for Rita?

SPEAKER_00: 32:31

Yeah. So I think there's a healthy response and an unhealthy response. So before I had any therapy, I had a little bit of both. So my unhealthy response was that I lived in my own little world. And I know there are some imaginative personalities who do that, and it's not necessarily an unhealthy thing. It's who they are. They're the poets and the beautiful authors that create all these great works of literature for us to enjoy. that's not my natural personality. I'm more deliberate. I'm a planner. I'm very aware in my perfect, I shouldn't say perfect in my more healthy state. I am not a whimsical dreamer. It was, it was more of a trauma response that I just lived in my own little world and, and, um, had my own imaginations and, um, just was really out of touch with reality in a sense. Now I'm not to the point where I was, you know, I didn't believe I could fly or anything like that, but I certainly had my own just, I mean, we've, I'm sure you've met people like that who just, the dreamer who's just inward and who just has their own little, their little world. I don't know how else to say it. That was probably the unhealthy response. The more healthy response is that, you know, my grandmother was very much a Bible thumping Christian and she introduced And so, you know, if you're not so sure about your earthly surroundings, it's a little bit easier to accept the idea of God. And so I very much delved into God. And I think that part and I'm grateful for that part. I'm grateful that I was able to just be receptive. And then also I had a need, you know, because the idea was, you know, this world's messed up. Be of good cheer. We have a God that overcame the world, so rely on him. And for me, that was very comforting because I sensed my world was messed up. I sensed that my parents had a dramatic divorce and I was living the consequences of that. And I didn't have a secure sense of self or a secure foundation of love. So I was very relieved in the idea that there's an all-powerful God who wants to assist me and so I you know delved into my faith and it's still a huge part of my life today and so I think that is a silver lining in the whole scenario and then me my escapism was something I had to work through right

SPEAKER_02: 35:19

I find that really really interesting because um On the one hand, you have physical members, family members physically around you that could provide you and maybe were willing to provide you that warmth and that comfort in a physical sense that you may needed. Yet you turned to a faith. to a religion that is not in the physical sense able to give you that warmth, but you found more reassurance from that than from this. So I just find that interesting. I guess maybe... Right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:14

And I probably should add that, you know, my mom's family is great. I love them. They're wonderful. I'm assuming most people in the world are aware of this. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not that culturally aware, but, um, you know, in the nineties, my mom's family was very much just like your typical loving, but socially acceptable, dysfunctional family kind of. Are you aware of this?

UNKNOWN: 36:42

Are you aware of this?

SPEAKER_00: 36:43

the world aware of this? I wasn't sure if this was common around the world. Do you know the Roseanne Barr show? Roseanne Barr show? No. Roseanne Barr. It was a big show here in the 90s and it sort of normalized the middle class socially acceptable dysfunction in a family. I very much relate to that show when it comes to my most positive the family. Um, there's just sort of, um, you know, even though they're all very close, they're a little bit critical of each other in, in a, you know, loud, Northern, socially acceptable kind of way. I don't know how else to say it. I know I'm probably hitting on a lot of stereotypes, but it's true. I'm just trying to paint the picture that, you know, that it's true. And then just to add a little bit of backstory. Um, I don't think that my, um, My mom's family really fostered the best attachment just even apart from my situation with going to Mexico. And this is actually very prevalent with immigrant families. So my grandfather was first generation American. His father came through Ellis Island from Slovenia. And his mother actually came to the United States as an indentured servant, which is just wild for us to think about. And I actually knew her. She didn't die until I was like eight, nine, 10 years old. Um, and so there's this idea, you know, that we have to make it in this country. Your feelings don't

SPEAKER_03: 38:28

matter.

SPEAKER_00: 38:30

We have to survive. And, you know, kids are expected to, um, not be kids and to be mature and work at a very young age. And also, um, Put their feelings aside to create this new legacy in this new country. Right. Right. had been, you know, taken from Mexico and put in a family that had a really secure or strong attachment within the family, maybe I would have just adapted and just naturally, you know, created new bonds and gone on with my life. But I think because there was all, because I had a traumatic experience and then I, you know, entered into a family that doesn't necessarily have the best attachment, we all love each other. It's great. But they They will admit themselves that there are some socially acceptable dysfunctions and that attachment isn't necessarily my mom's family's strong

SPEAKER_03: 40:24

suit.

SPEAKER_00: 40:25

And so I couldn't really... You know, there were reasons not, there were reasons to be avoidant within my mom's

SPEAKER_02: 40:33

family. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:35

As well as just the basic trauma. There were, you know, loud fights at times. There was nothing super, there was no, like, nothing that would be categorized as abusive. It's all just, like I said, more socially acceptable.

SPEAKER_03: 40:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:53

American dysfunction. Yeah. And, you know, I think my aunts, too, So, um, and not to stay too long on this question, but, um, you know, my, my mom is one of five, there's one, one boy and then four girls, all four of, um, the girls, um, divorced their first husbands. Um, and there was sort of like, um, in my very formative years, a lot of detachment that way, you know, there was all of these divorces happening, um, in my, in my early years. Um, And like I said, my mom's been married four times. So it just wasn't the environment to recover from damaged

SPEAKER_02: 42:16

attachment. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 42:19

And then I was introduced to, like I said, a loving God. And so that was just the more natural choice.

UNKNOWN: 42:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:26

In a sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:28

That makes sense. Talk to me about boundaries. How does boundaries play a part in something like this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:38

Totally messed up. So avoidance have extreme excessive boundaries. Their default is almost always, I mean, their default is no. You know, do you want to go out? No. Can I come over? No. You know, it's just, it's a default. And I, you know, really describe avoidant attachment as this internal fortress, kind of like the old timey cities that had, you know, fortified walls around them to protect from outside invasion it's like that except internal and unnecessary even when you're safe you feel like you're not safe and so the default is no and so in society you might be praised because you might be praised for having really good boundaries like I was never that girl that dated the bad boy you know what I mean and so that was very much so praised on the flip side anxious Mm-hmm. And so boundaries are definitely not a strong suit for somebody dealing with an unhealthy attachment style. Now, have we all said, have we all had times in our lives where we've defaulted to no or maybe disrespected our boundaries or the people that we love's boundaries? Yes. But again, it's a reoccurring

SPEAKER_02: 44:25

thing

SPEAKER_00: 44:26

with someone who's truly on the unhealthy

SPEAKER_02: 44:27

side. Right. role sort of like lifestyle, right?

SPEAKER_03: 44:41

What

SPEAKER_02: 44:42

about like, boundaries when you were young being raised by your mom? Would you say like, did you did you? Would you say like, maybe they were overstepping boundaries to an extent? This is before you had the opportunity to say no, it was more like being projected onto you. And that's what put those walls up that made you start saying no to everyone else. Would you say that over critiquing and criticizing and just being in on your business is what results with this.

SPEAKER_00: 45:14

Yes. And I will say, like I said, I grew up on pretty much 100 acre farm with tons of aunts and uncles. And it was great. As a kid, I could go to my aunt's house where my cousins were. I could roam the hills. It was great. But at the same time, there weren't the best boundaries established between the adults in my life. So I can't tell you how many times it would play out that my mom and one of her sisters would get super close and spend a whole lot of time together, which meant their kids spent a lot of time together and then they would get on each other's nerves or have a sister fight and then kind of just not hang out so much. And my mom would hang out with another sister. And so, um, there, those were, you know, sloppy boundaries, I would say. Yeah. And so I, I, I would be exhausted by it, you know, for someone with an avoidant attachment style that is extremely exhausting. Um, and so that made me shut down a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02: 46:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 46:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 46:14

Very interesting. I find that very interesting how, like, you know... Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 47:19

parenting style just anyway, but especially if there are sloppy boundaries and especially if you're dealing with some failed attachment, it can, it can irritate certain issues. And so, yeah, that's sort of what I was kind of alluding to with the whole immigrant family is there's very much an authority. Most immigrant families have an authoritative parenting style. I shouldn't say most families. We hear about having that for the first couple generations because again it's it's it's not about the individual it's about the family surviving and there needs to be for sure it needs to be about work needs to be about legacy and so there's not the freedom to say well i'm having a bad day you know and i i don't want to bail this hay today yeah you know there's not that freedom yeah and so it creates a whole nother slew of issues yeah

SPEAKER_02: 48:15

no that's that's definitely 100 true and in in the east as well here in asia that it is also a bit of an issue because the whole concept of family over the self is still very prevalent. There are also a lot of people who struggle to say no in their adult lives, and they find themselves working unfair hours, underpaid, and they don't know how to say no to their boss because they were taught from a young age just deferred authority. And so... Maybe, maybe the response is a Well, can that be changed and how?

SPEAKER_00: 49:19

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the million dollar question. So when I was diagnosed in the nineties, I think the term was considered avoidant attachment disorder. And that language has completely changed. Now it's just an extreme avoidant attachment style or an attachment issue because the industry, the mental health industry has realized you can very much so change. And so that is where I just, that that's the whole reason I want to share my story. You know, I don't want to share my story because while it's, you know, an interesting story, I want to share my story because you can change. You're not relegated to your upbringing. You're not relegated to what happened to you. You can develop tools to have a healthier attachment. And so just like anything, the first step is awareness. So you do need to, you know, learn about attachment and you do need to learn about the different attachment styles and to determine which style you have. So that's the first step, you know, kind of like in AA, they say the first step is saying, well, I am an alcoholic, you know, the first step. Well, I do understand what attachment is and I am, um, whatever the case may be. So that's definitely the first step, no matter what. It's a little different if you have avoidant versus anxious attachment. So I did not know this when I was going through it. I did not know it. And this is, again, I have to point back to my faith because I really do think it was God. Now that I know more about attachment healing or attachment recovery or trauma recovery, however you wanted to say it, I almost perfectly match the steps of healing like a textbook, but I didn't know it at the time. I was just engaging my faith. And then I was in counseling. I was in professional Christian counseling. But in hindsight, I can see that I went through almost the textbook steps. So just to kind of back up, learn about it, understand what your issue is. And then the first step is really like self-talk and self-awareness and um not because I was dealing with attachment but just in my faith I was learning about Christian meditation and um you know you're from you're Indian so you probably know a lot more about meditation than the average American the average American you know I think that's changed a lot over the past 15 years um when I was going through this it was um You know, the early 2000s and meditation was just not talked about as much as it is now. And and I was learning about Christian meditation and I didn't realize it then that I was centering myself and I was getting I was I was getting in touch with what I was feeling and then processing it through my faith that I was I was centering. And then, you know, now I understand and I totally did not understand this at the time, but I was also resetting my mind. nervous system so you know when you have a trauma even if you cognitively process and deal with it your nervous system still holds on to the trauma and meditation is one of the number one things that deals with that I had no idea about that at the time I was you know working on attachment healing and then also just growing in my faith and so that was for me the first step is just sort of recentering and getting back to myself and realizing when I had, we kind of all have those eternal alarms that are like, wait a minute, no, this isn't healthy, this isn't right. And when you have bad boundaries or an unhealthy attachment, you just sort of ignore those feelings and eventually become out of touch with those feelings. And meditation helps you get back in touch with some of your natural feelings responses that are really good and so that's very important and there are other techniques other than meditation but the main step is the same where you get back to knowing yourself and one of the main ways that you know yourself is to respond when you feel something so that was huge and then intense counseling and then a huge part of avoidant attachment is kind of going back in the past This is not, this is different from anxious attachment that I actually reconnected with my father and reconnected with my Mexican family. And it's sad because not everybody has the ability to do that, but you can, um, go back in the past in a sense and, and develop a bond with a safe person and, and, and sort of, you know, comfort yourself in that. I didn't have that as a child, but I have it now. Um, for me, It was very literal. I actually went back and went to Mexico and met my father and met his family and connected. And then with anxious attachment, it's a little bit more about behavior modification. So, you know, the anxious person will feel like, oh my God, this person's about to abandon me. This person didn't like something I said and they're about to abandon me and I have to make them not abandon me. You know, I have to go after them. And so it's really about behavior modification and saying, this is not a catastrophe. It's okay that people don't like every single thing that I say. And this is just an example. I don't need to react. And if they do abandon me, then they weren't a healthy person to begin. If they're going to abandon me over something so minute, then they're not good for me anyway. And so it's, it's not reacting. And there is, you know, awareness, learning your style, getting back to, more calming techniques. Meditation could be beneficial, not so much to get in touch with how you feel, because usually people with an anxious attachment are very aware of how they feel. It's that it's a catastrophe, and they need more calming techniques and behavior modification not to react from a

SPEAKER_03: 55:56

place of

SPEAKER_00: 55:56

fear. So it's a little different, but it kind of makes sense once you understand. Do you

SPEAKER_02: 56:03

think that like self-love. self-respect sort of therapy or affirmations can also help for avoidant, no, not avoidant, sorry, anxious attachment style individual. Because if they're feeling this fear that someone else is going to leave them, there is a certain sort of like void, like of not loving yourself enough to feel like it's okay. I'm okay on my own without this person if it's not meant to work.

SPEAKER_00: 56:31

Absolutely. Self-love is huge. And so that's, I mean, again, it's the whole, you know, It's the whole thing. So, you know, from a foundation of love, when we say, wow, this caregiver loves me, then we naturally love ourselves. We don't have that foundation. We may act like we love ourselves. We may seem to the outside world that we're very confident, but both the avoidant and the anxious do have issues with self-love. The avoidant is going to be more prone to find their sense of identity and love from achievements. So most avoidants Avoidant people are hardworking, independent, have the achievement of buying a house young, have the achievement of running a marathon, have the achievement of being successful in their job, and they're really trying to compensate. So there's a self-love component for the avoidant. It's probably easier to understand that there's a need for self-love with the anxious person because the anxious attachment person is always trying to get their needs met. And they're always afraid that others are going to abandon them. And, um, and so, you know, if you can get to a point where, Hey, like you said, um, I'm worthy of love. If this person abandons me, they're not healthy. I don't need to fear that. I can understand that not everyone can meet all of my needs all of the time. I can meet some of my needs. And so, you know, I can, you know, go for a walk by myself and, you know, have the endorphin release from walking and, you know, sort of meet myself there. And so, yes, self-love is very important for both recoveries.

SPEAKER_02: 58:16

Very important. Interesting. Because we do seem to currently live in this age right now where very, very young individuals are crazy overachievers. You know, you've got those super influencers, right? Like that have this amazing personality online and are making a lot of money and achieving so much. But then when you watch deep interviews about a lot of them, they talk about the loneliness of being a YouTuber or loneliness of being a YouTuber. And I wonder, because a lot of people strive for that, but I wonder whether that's what's actually happening, whether to an extent, maybe this is an avoidant attachment sort of thing. It is this like, it's me against everyone. And sort of like, I'm deriving a lot of my achievement and success by sort of being shut off to the world and just showing the world what, you know, I want to show them.

SPEAKER_00: 59:13

A hundred percent. And so, you know, you, you, you touch on two very important concepts. So, you know, number one, there's a big difference between self-indulgence and self-love, you know, having the fame, having the achievements can be self-indulgence without being self-love. Now, I think there are a lot of people that achieve great things from a healthy place. It's, it's, it's not, you know, an exact, you know, determine, determine it, you know, If you have a, you can have a million followers and be very secure in your identity and have a wonderful support system and not be lonely at all. And you can have a million followers and not, you know, so it's not an exact, um, discrimination, but you know, there is an indulgence to, wow, look at me. I can edit my persona and only show the world the part that I want the world to see. And from that place, Mm-hmm. alienates the person from true security and true love because not only are they getting accolades for an edited version of themselves, there's also added shame to the hidden parts of themselves. And so it creates, I think for the million followers that don't feel secure, I think they really don't feel secure. It's heightened, you know, because we all have our insecurities. We all put our, you know, put our best foot forward when we can. But when you're literally showing the world all of your, you know, good points and hiding all of your bad points, it creates a bigger divide. So I think that's very, very important. But then the other major issue that you're hitting on is that we now have, at least in the West, a culture that does not foster secure attachment. You know, we have a culture of, well, the breakdown of the nuclear family. Widespread divorce. The mental illness... epidemic is, you know, highlighted. And so you have a lot of, you know, untreated mental illness. It's kind of like I was saying earlier, the socially acceptable dysfunctional family, um, there, there's just sort of like a socially accepted dysfunction. Um, and I think that that can be good because then there's, it's, it's, there's at least freedom to name it and freedom to potentially, you know, remedy what you can. Um, but then there's also just that, well, everybody is dysfunctional we're all crazy you know I think I've heard you know prozac nation you know not not to alienate anybody who's on prozac but it's like the statistics like just be on drugs you know just just just medicate your problem instead of everybody has one so just medicate it um and I know that there are a lot of people that that use antidepressants and things like that as an aid and you know and they need to be on it um but when you have the statistics that we have here in the states I think it highlights

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:37

the

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:37

a bigger problem. And so we have this cultural environment that fosters insecure attachment.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:47

Yeah, that's pretty scary.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:49

So even if you grew up in a healthy family that nurtured attachment, the culture may erode some of that, that health. So just like we were talking about, if you have insecure attachment, you can move, you can take steps to move towards secure attachment. The same is true. If you grew up in a family that, that fostered secure attachment in your adult life, if you don't nurture that, you could lose it. You could, you know, get wrapped up in some of the things of the culture or addiction. You know, you know, if you're dealing with addiction, you probably don't have the securest attachment. Um, and you know, other mental illness, illnesses, different factors can erode your healthy attachment. And we have a lot of that. So there's news, there's new statistics out that two thirds of adults in the West now have some sort of attachment issue. Now that's not to say it's as extreme as mine, you know, mine in the olden days was considered a disorder. Um, now, now you can have an attachment issue without having a totally insecure attachment. But it is believed that two-thirds of adults in the West have some sort of attachment issue now.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:06

Really scary if you think about it. But actually, just to sort of add on to what you were saying earlier, because when you said that just as we can reverse back to a secure attachment, we can also develop insecure attachments. I wanted to ask, can it also be something that can be triggered because of a work environment or because of a romantic relationship or because of a broken friendship that really impacted you. Because so far, we've only really touched on, you know, the childhood attachments that are formed by your parents. So talk to me a little bit about, you know, what is it like, what kind of impact or other kinds of impact can leave on an individual to change from a secure to an insecure?

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:51

Sure. So of course, trauma. So, you know, if you're happily married and your spouse dies traumatically, that, of course, could alter your attachment. Or if your spouse, you know, brutally mistreats you or, you know, if there's infidelity, all of those things can hinder healthy attachment. And then basically the same can be said of a serious dating relationship. So if you're just dating someone casually and, you know, maybe you've been on four dates and then you find out that they're in a relationship with somebody else, of course that's not going to have the same effect as if you've been dating the person for two years. If it's a significant betrayal, abuse, neglect in a significant relationship, then that, of course, can cause some issues. The other thing is just your own trauma. If you deal with your own illness, let's say you have an illness that that causes you to self-isolate. And so then you're not nurturing the relationships that support you the most. That could cause an issue. Or a separate trauma like losing a family member traumatically. Anything that might cause you to shut down or not nurture your relationships can also eventually cause you to have damaged attachments. So, of course, like... you know, let's just, for example, you know, you're very close to your father and then totally unexpected, your father dies of a massive heart attack, way younger than you thought he would. And let's say that you go through a grieving process for a few months and then gradually come back to, you know, your supportive relationships. That's probably not going to cause an attachment issue. But if it's truly traumatic and you shut down and self-isolate for a year, two years, then naturally that is going to affect your relationships and eventually affect your attachment. And sometimes it can be good things. I hate to say it, but you know... I would imagine that if I, you know, had triplets, my whole life would shut down. You know what I mean? And I would just be in survival mode, taking care of, you know, triplets. I mean, that's a huge handful. And so I might not nurture, you know, my friendships and some of my extended family relationships. And, you know, by the time the kids are in school, I might feel like completely detached from, you know, loving relationships. So it's not necessarily always a trauma or something bad, but it's usually something extreme that disrupted your life and disrupted your ability to connect with others. Again, mental illness, postpartum depression, all of those things can cause you to not nurture yourself and your loving relationships and eventually leave you feeling less than securely attached.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:08

Very interesting. I wonder though, as an adult, if there was a turn of events that caused your attachment style to become unhealthy, whether that lasting effect, but then of course, yeah, going back to what you were saying, because I was jumping to an assumption that, you know, if this happens when you're really young, it's more embedded into your psyche. So it's going to be much longer lasting, and it's going to require much more therapy, but not necessarily. You can have something very traumatic as an adult, and it can be equally long-lasting. One would just think that you know yourself more at that point and you've gone through enough of secure relationships, for example, when you were young that you have a sort of place to fall back on. But again, your core can be shaken up completely at any age. And so the effect can be long-lasting at any point, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:05

Absolutely. And I would say, you know, for me, my 20s were full of depression and anxiety and just not productive dating. You know, there's productive dating where you're getting to know a person, they're getting to know you, you're vulnerable, you create a bond, you have a level of intimacy. Even if the relationship doesn't work out for the long term, it's still productive for the majority of the relationship. Because I was still very much so working through all of the attachment stuff and also suffering you know working through depression and anxiety my dating experiences in my 20s just added to the trauma not to be dramatic but you know just strengthened my idea of self-protection, if that makes sense. And it wasn't actually abusive. Like I was never in a domestic violence situation. It's just, it was, the relationships weren't productive. There wasn't, there wasn't intimacy. There wasn't vulnerability. It was a broken version of myself trying to have connection and unfortunately attracting equally

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:20

broken

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:20

people.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:22

And so I, you know, was not improved by those relationships. And I also did damage in, you know, to other people, um, in those relationships, you know, when I felt uncomfortable, I would break up with people. I would, I would write off a guy very cruelly, you know, that had invested some time and, you know, had their own issues and maybe was worth, you know, working some things out. I was very quick to say, hit the road, Jack, see you later. And so I'm sure I hurt some people along the way too so those relationships were not productive um and just further to your points strengthened the insecure attachment versus moving towards

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:09

so walk me through this this marriage that you're in now the relationship how it started how how was this different what was different about this one

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:21

So I would say first and foremost, I had gotten really on the other side of my healing journey. So I, of course, you know, thought, well, I'm going to get and this is so funny for an avoidant attachment person who does tilt towards being a workaholic. I thought I'm going to get past this attachment and I'm going to know my purpose. I was never that person that said, I'm going to get past this attachment issue and then get married and have the wife. picket fence and, you know, and his dog. I was not that person. I was more so striving to know my purpose and place in the world. And then as I, you know, got healthier, I realized, OK, I need to, you know, reconnect with my dad's side of the family. Did that great. OK, what's my purpose? The next step was really creating my own support system of friends because I had had friends, you know, that I never truly relied on my friends as a support system to both give support and receive support. And so after, you know, the odyssey of, you know, going to Mexico and reconnecting with my family, I, I really started to develop just, you know, a friend family, if that makes sense. Um, you know, and, and the, the, the average person, you know, who has a secure attachment, of course they have friends in elementary school and high school, but usually they develop, you know, mature and adult lasting relationships in the college years, usually at college or in the college years. I didn't have that because of my insecure attachment. I didn't develop those. You don't really stay friends with people in your early years usually. I know there are exceptions. It's usually in college and when my father died. You hear people say that. When I went through this major milestone, this person was there. This person was at my wedding. And those things happen in the 20s. Most people get married in the 20s. And so I didn't have that like really strong support system. And so the first step was really after reuniting with my family was developing a support system. And it happened at first very much by my effort and then very organically after I had that sort of first couple of relationships. And I'm still in very close contact with all of those people. I mean, we do life together and really support each other. and love each other. Um, and then again, I was like, okay, what's my purpose? You know? And, um, and then, um, love, I always say I was interrupted by grace because, um, a church lady, um, named grace, um, introduced me to my husband and, and she just thought we, she just thought we would be perfect together. And so she arranged, um, sort of a picnic for her birthday actually. And, um, we met along with a bunch of other people and we didn't like each other at first.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:26

One of those romantic love stories.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:29

His little rom-coms. Those little rom-coms. He immediately started talking about skydiving and I was like, I'm finally growing as a person. I don't have time for this crazy thing. And he thought I was too opinionated, which he's right. I am very opinionated. Um, but we became friends because we were, you know, the relatively the same age and we were attending the same church. Now I wouldn't have probably met him if it weren't for grace, just because I go to a very large church, um, and that's two services. So I had never met him. Um, but we, we, you know, realized we were going to the same church and a relatively same age and he was looking for friends as well because he had gone through a divorce six years earlier. And, um, You know, went through some healing of his own and was kind of, you know, looking for new friends and, you know, his new single life. So he was very receptive to friends and I was very receptive to friends. And we actually, you know, sort of by accident became best friends over the next year. And then going back to my faith, I, you know, the way I commune with the Lord, I was aware that he was the person that God was. God had for me. Um, and I knew five months before my husband knew. And, you know, for anybody who's not, you know, a believer in God, they might find this annoying, but, um, but for me, it was very, very real. Um, I, for the, you know, for the next five months, um, got to see my future husband through the Lord's eyes. And so I, every day would get some sort of truth about my husband's, um, identity, about his purpose, about our future life together. And it was really a beautiful time. I really fell in love with my husband by seeing him from a higher perspective. Um, and then right at the five month mark, he, um, you know, said that he, you know, was in love with me too, basically. And we got married very quickly. We got married, I think seven months later, I think is what it He's the love of my life. It's been a crazy, crazy romance. We're now three and a half years into our marriage and the honeymoon is still going on. And people ask me, you know, what is it? And it's like, well, you really need to see

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:08

who

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:09

your person is. I think a lot of times we... you know, get the butterflies and the feelings. And so we dive at first into a relationship. And I think that's one of the silver lining benefits of being avoided is that you don't do that. You just don't do that. You know, we fall in love slowly and the benefit that can really hinder you from ever falling in love. But the benefit is, you know, if you're, you know, moving towards health is that you really get to know the person for who they are not for what they can do for you not for the needs that they can meet in you but for who they are and I think if you really know who a person is and really truly love who they are not how they make you feel I think your relationship has a stronger chance of being long lasting that's the silver lining of like my whole journey is that I got to know who I was probably more so than the average person would be even just from a secure upbringing, I really had to do

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:17

work

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:18

to learn who I was. And then just through my relationship with the Lord, I really knew who my husband was before I got in a relationship with him. And then, of course, when we were in a relationship, there were tons of butterflies and tons of romantic moments and tons of beautiful moments, but I very much knew who he was before all of that. And I think a simpler way to say it

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:40

is you want to become

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:41

friends first. I think that's a simpler way. But, you

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:55

know, we are very securely attached, if that makes sense. to that default me versus you me against the world or if there are any moments where you both get into an argument and you fall back to that default or are you able to look at him as we are a team and we are always on the same side here and it's it's no longer me versus you or like when you actually disagreeing with each other you're of opposing you know opinions how do you remove yourself from going to that default you know mentality

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:42

yeah Yeah, that's a fantastic question. I would say for one, I had walked through a ton of healing. So I was 37 when I got married. So, I mean, all through and I was in counseling. I got into counseling when I was 13 or 14. And then I stayed in counseling my adult life. So. I really walked through a lot of healing. And I would say that my default of falling back into me against the world really happened more so when I, with my friends, you know, with my friend, you know, group that really became my long lasting friend group. I would default some in those relationships and they were so loving and patient and just worked, helped me work through all of that, that by the time I got married, I really have never defaulted back to the true thralls of attachment disorder. Now I will say, I call it debris. There's a little bit of debris where, um, I can sort of trace it back to while I was avoiding it for so many years. And just a real quick example of that is just when we first got married, um, Um, you know, we were learning, we were learning our married routine and, you know, my husband knew that I never spent more than an hour and a half at the gym. And, um, and I, one day I had seen a friend, one of my, one of my very good friends, and it had just been a little couple of weeks since we had really talked. And so I ended up talking to her and I ended up staying at the gym several hours and I just lost track of time. I had done my workout, and then I talked to her for probably another hour. And because I was working out, I had my earbuds in. And then when I saw her, I took my earbuds out, but my phone was still connected to my earbuds. I know this is a lot of detail, but you'll see why I'm saying it. And so my husband, after like two hours, got a little concerned. He was like, hey, just checking, make sure you're okay. Well, my earbuds were off, and my phone was linked to my earbuds, so I didn't hear the phone ring. And I didn't realize he was trying to reach me. And, um, and then after like two and a half hours, he got really concerned and came to the gym. And I would say the debris of attachment is disorder of my avoidant attachment disorder is that even when we first got married, it never occurred to me that he would be worried. Like it sort of got like independence, um, came out, not that it came out in like a fight, like, no, I'm right. And I, you know, But it came out in just like a more mundane scenario. And my friend was like, oh, wow, you've been here two and a half hours. Of course, he's going to be concerned. And and I was just like, it never remotely dawned on me. You know, there was a little bit of that in in our first year of marriage where I had to just really realize that this person, not just in the big things, but in the small things is concerned for me. And I think a lot of my healing and with my friend group, it became the big things. There's love and support, but not the little mundane things. And so I had to kind of get used to, you know, answering to somebody. I mean, quite frankly, you know, that's what it was, you know, being accountable to somebody. And for an avoidant, that is not your natural default.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:22

Yeah. Would you say an avoidant attachment style person is likened to an introvert and an anxious would be likened to an extrovert or is there no connection there?

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:35

So I think on the outside looking in, it is likened to an introvert and likened to an extrovert. However, my healthy state, I'm an extreme extrovert. So again, it's, and I hate, well, I'm glad that we don't use the term disorder anymore, but generally speaking, a disorder, disorganizes your natural healthiest state. And so I think that in that respect, it's kind of good to call avoidant, extreme avoidant attachment a disorder because the disorder separates you from who you really are. Kind of like people most relate with alcoholism. You know, somebody can be very happy-go-lucky and then get drunk and be very negative. And so it disorders you from your actual authentic self. And so in my case, I happened to be avoided who was actually an extreme extrovert. And so there's really no connection, but I think it's more so the outside looking in. As suffering from avoidant attachment disorder, I probably seemed more like an

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:54

introvert. Yeah, that's sort of why I asked you because it did sort of make me start to like, connect certain people and I was like oh I wonder because like this person's quite an introvert oh this one's an introvert too okay here we go but no that's really interesting look we are we are reaching the end of the interview so I just want to ask you one or two more questions the first one is because I'm sure a lot of people listening to this are probably like trying to connect dots and trying to figure out like okay which one do I connect which one do I so you you did you mention that therapy is one of the very, very important sort of like things that we can take going forward. Are there any particular kind of relationships or friendships that we can seek out to help us not only like know ourselves better, but also to develop more of a secure kind of relationship or secure kind of attachment style?

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:56

Yeah, absolutely. So of course, if you have an insecure attachment style, you're going to heal more by being in relationships and that includes friendships with people that have a secure attachment style. And I almost hate to say that out loud because when you have an insecure attachment style, you naturally are drawn to and connect with people with an insecure

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:17

attachment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:19

Does that make sense? So it's, you know, I think most counselors will say the level of broken that we have, we attract. And so the very thing that you need is going to be counterintuitive. So let's say you go to a party, you know, and there is someone who is very balanced and who asks you questions and also shares, you know, you may, you may, you know, feel a little intimidated by that. And then, you know, start another conversation with somebody who's like, Oh my God, I'm having the worst day ever. And just like pull right does that make sense so you know we want people that want a secure attachment need more people in their lives with a healthier secure attachment style but it's not going to be who you're next Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:28

That's really interesting, though, because what that means is then a person that has secure attachment style has to also be attracted to a person with an insecure attachment style for that to work

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:40

yeah

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:41

in a way but I would assume that a person with a secure attachment style would would naturally draw another secure attachment style individual right so

SPEAKER_00: 1:27:50

yeah and so that's the rub that's the that's the difficulty is they may see red flags in you right not not want to foster that relationship but that's why it starts yeah with counseling and self-awareness and some of the individual work first. So the idea is that hopefully you've had some level of healing. And so even though you're not in the fullness of your healing, you're healthy enough to consciously attract healthier people. Not naturally,

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:21

but

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:22

consciously. And self-regulate and say, wow, this person's very balanced. Let me try to also be balanced. Not for the other person, but for yourself. And you yet it will foster a healthier environment for a healthier friendship.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:38

I like that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:39

And that's really hard at first.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:43

That's really hard at first. And it's even harder in dating because you're going to, you want to be with the person you're naturally attracted to, not the person you're consciously

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:52

attracted

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:53

to. Right.

UNKNOWN: 1:28:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:53

I think, again, I didn't know this at the time, but I think it's really beautiful that I started with family, then friends, and then romance. And that's really the blueprint that's That's really the blueprint that you want to follow. I didn't know it at the time. It just kind of naturally happened.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:11

Yeah. You want to seek out those people that, that are more balanced and have a more secure attachment style. Yeah. The unfortunate thing is often in avoidance attract anxious. And so you think you're going to balance each other out, but really you just drive each other further into your own lane. So, you know, the, the avoidant, Hmm. Hmm. The avoidant says no, but is refreshed by the anxious' ability to move past their boundaries. And so that's why they initially attract to each other, but really at the end, the anxious feels like the stoicism of the avoidant is unloving and unsupportive, and the avoidant feels violent. So it really pushes each into their own lane. But at first, it seems like, oh, well, this person's balancing me out. You would be better to seek out someone with a secure attachment. And there's a learning curve. I mean, there's definitely a learning curve.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:44

Yeah, very interesting. Well, what about what can parents that have probably, you know, that knowing that their child when they were very, very young, probably had gone through a trauma, Maybe another parent passed away or, you know, they had experienced a divorce. And obviously, now I can't undo this sort of trauma my kid has gone through. And fast forward, my kid is already 10, 11, and I'm seeing little signs in my child. What can a parent do in those situations to kind of reverse that?

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:16

That's a fabulous question. And I have to give credit to my mom, even though she's in that big, socially acceptable dysfunctional family. She very much saw those... characteristics in me and got me in counseling when I was like 13 or 14 years old. So I do think counseling, you know, children's counseling is so important and I'm so grateful that I was exposed to that. But not everybody is willing or able to do that. So you want to just reaffirm a foundation of love. And so oftentimes the child dealing with an unhealthy attachment style, is going to act out or withdraw and not engage. And so it's important that the adult that's trying to bring healing doesn't react, doesn't react to the child's outbursts and doesn't take personally the child's withdrawal. You know, they have to just continually stand on a firm foundation of love. Even though you're withdrawing right now, it's okay I understand I love you even though you're acting out right now it's okay I understand I love you love is not based on their response it's based on a foundation that you establish and that is extremely difficult and we all need to support our fostering parents and our adoptive parents because statistically they're the parents that are going to deal with this the most and it is a late to not react. And just also as a parent, you know, I'm a stepmom now and I absolutely love being a stepmom and I love my stepdaughter unconditionally, but we're humans and you know, we do, it's easier for us to give and receive love when it is, when, when the love that we give out is received well. Right. And that's basically the cautionary tale of dealing with somebody with an insecure attachment style is that the they don't receive love well and so you could shower them with love and they could be uncomfortable and retreat or even push you away or you could shower someone with love and they could say it's not enough your your your your efforts are not enough i need you to do more well that's discouraging you know that you have to operate from that foundation of love i love this child because i choose to love this

SPEAKER_03: 1:33:53

child

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:53

not because of the way that they reciprocate and i think that is huge and it has to be consistent. It cannot be when you're having a good day, you know, 50% of the time. I mean, it doesn't have to be perfect, but it needs to be the majority of the time to really allow an environment for the child to heal.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34:17

I love that. Oh, that's amazing. There's so many useful tips that you've just given us today. I think, yeah, people of all ages, you whatever it is, wherever stage you are in life, I think there's so much that you can take away. Um, listeners, I'm going to just give you one last, uh, plug in for, uh, for Rita. Um, she's going to introduce her book a little bit, uh, and then I'll put it into description as well. So you guys can also have access to it. Um, and Rita, floor's yours. Tell us a little bit about your book.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:48

Absolutely. But first of all, I just want to thank you so much. I truly enjoyed this and I love your questions. Your questions really drew out, um, some information that I wanted to get out there. So thank you so much. And your show just does that. I've listened to other episodes and you really draw out the truth, the heart behind the story. And I love that about your podcast. Um, but yes, I've written a book canyons and fireworks and I'm in the editing process. Hopefully it'll be available later this year. In the meantime, um, you can stay up to date at canyons and fireworks.com. And there's a link there to my blog and to my social media out outlets and I just really appreciate any interest or you know any follows or comments or shares I really appreciate.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:34

Awesome Rita thank you so much for today I've had such an awesome time with you learned so much today I'm about to go home and go back and just you know reflect on everything.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:45

I love it I love it thank you so much thank you for all that you do.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:53

If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help support the show, please follow and subscribe. You can rate and review your feedback on any of our platforms listed in the description. I'd like to recognize our guests who are vulnerable and open to share their life experiences with us. Thank you for showing us we're human. Also, a thank you to our team who worked so hard behind the scenes to make it happen.

SPEAKER_00: 1:36:15

The

SPEAKER_02: 1:36:18

show would be nothing without you. I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening to Multispective.