050 Two Lives: Escaping Jehovah’s Witnesses

In this episode, Stephan Menzel, shares his story of growing up in the restrictive environment of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Stephan discusses the challenges, restrictions, and eventual liberation he experienced after breaking away from the group.

He sheds light on the recruitment process and expectations within Jehovah’s Witnesses, offering valuable insights into the tactics used by such groups to attract and retain members. He provides guidance on what to look out for and how to protect oneself from falling prey to cult-like organizations.

This episode is a must-listen for those seeking to educate themselves on the signs of manipulation and coercion within closed religious communities.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

I lived two lives, basically. One life in freedom that I'm enjoying right now. And the other life was back in the days when I was a cult member myself. I've lost my friends. I've lost the people that I care and who cared about me. And then I started over completely. And looking back, I don't regret it at all.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

Hi guys, Jenica here. I'm from Multispective and I'm here to share with you a new episode. This is a really exciting episode. It is one that is very personal to me. The person I'm interviewing, Stefan Menzel, actually works on the team and it took us some time to get into a conversation that was delving into our own personal lives. So Stefan was talking to me one day and started telling me about his own personal journey and then we decided for him to join the podcast podcast as a guest. And so super excited about this episode. It is our 50th episode as well. So yet another exciting milestone for all of us. So in this episode, Stefan talks about his childhood being raised in a very conservative Jehovah's Witness family. He talks in great detail about what are the rules and the guidelines of being a Jehovah's Witness member. He was raised into it more or less and had a lot of difficulty adjusting and identifying with the religion or some may call it cult and he then talks about how he escaped it and had to cut ties with everyone from his family in Germany and then rebuild his entire life all over again. He struggled with understanding what it means to just live in an ordinary world that was not confined by so many rules and regulations. He struggled with boundaries on certain issues with drinking with diets with friends in relationships so he talks about all the kinds of like struggles he experienced thereafter and the ways that he has also opened up his world in a lot of ways when he started to allow himself to be free a very interesting episode again this might be a little controversial to some of you so stay tuned I hope you enjoy the episode and please understand that it is a personal recount of a personal journey it may or may not always be relatable to you but would be useful anyway to know a little bit about what Jehovah's Witness entails what life is like inside and within it and what can an individual do coming out of a very closed culture or closed society and how they can seek out help in order to be able to reintegrate with society a little better so I hope you enjoy this episode try to keep an open mind and really looking forward to hearing from you. Don't forget, please subscribe, drop a comment below and let us know what you think. Stefan, it's so... crazy and awesome and all kinds of feels right now I'm having over having you on my podcast, on the podcast, on our podcast as a guest. So welcome to Multispective as a guest, Stefan. I cannot wait to share your story. I cannot believe that it took us such a long time to get into this conversation as well. But why don't we start off with you just telling our listeners where around the world are you right now? What are you up to? And who are you?

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Thank you, Very exciting. Also, I feel a little bit nervous. That's probably the reason why it took so long.

SPEAKER_04 4:22

came across a Reddit post that I'd made saying looking for some people to join the team. I think the thing that kind of sparked that interest for you was that you were going to be able to explore your sort of talent and grow your learning and knowledge, but also maybe a connection with the theme of the podcast too. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Yeah, exactly. I like to listen to podcasts and to people's stories because in every story, there's something that I can take away, you know, and I could basically combine the little bit nerdy side of myself and also one of my hobbies. And that was like a perfect opportunity for me.

SPEAKER_04 4:56

Yeah. And here we are two years later. It's crazy,

SPEAKER_03 4:59

right? Exactly. Almost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:01

Yeah. And you know what? The funny thing is that you have such a crazy life experience, like such a story. And the thing about stories and about people's experiences that at first glance, when you look at someone, you cannot see what kind of experiences that they have had. And it took us like a year and a half for us to even open up about our own personal lives I think you know we got so involved in the episodes and the passion in this project it took us some time to actually just sit down and be like who are you what where are you from like tell me about yourself and when we opened that conversation and I think it started this whole new kind of like gate opening right

SPEAKER_03 5:39

yeah you're right yeah this is normally not a story that I tell to everyone but then I've decided hey how can I actually make a difference I have this history and I have this experience and I want to help other people. So how can I do this if I don't actually share the story? So here we are.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

I really, really appreciate it. And I'm sure our listeners will too. So let's just get right into it. Can you tell us where your story begins?

SPEAKER_03 6:04

Yeah. So one of the triggers to actually make me want to share the story was a few days ago, I went to a meetup, the app right where you can meet strangers and then become friends at some point. Because here in the city, I just need to make more friends. Yeah, it's kind of lonely at the very beginning, I think. And there was this girl who organized this. And at some point during the small talk, I asked her, okay, so what do you do in your spare time? And she said, reading my Bible. This is the point that triggered me immediately, because I think we will get into this a little bit later. I have some experience with religion and cult. And this is one of the points that I want to share today, how you can protect your No, that's

SPEAKER_04 6:51

crazy. And like, I guess this can be debatable for some people that might be listening because of the vast scale and size of this. But, you know, listeners, just to remind you that this is his personal experience and his own journey through it. So let's just keep that in mind as we delve into this episode a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

And also to add, my experience is like several years ago. So by now, maybe things have changed, but I can only report on the things that I've experienced at the Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

So cults or religion, do you personally see a difference between the two and how would you define the two or how would you see the difference?

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Very difficult question. I don't think I can get the definition of a cult right, but in general, it would be people trying to control other people. That's my personal take on it. But to a certain extent, this also applies to every religion, maybe almost every religion. Maybe Buddhism is a little bit more more laid back Hinduism. But in the end, where there's a person on top trying to control people underneath, that is something that really does not resonate with me at all and where I'm very careful to stay away from, especially after my experience.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

So typically when you get into a conversation with someone and they start telling you a little bit about their religion that they're in, what is your kind of response? How did you respond to that girl?

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Live and let live. I mean, everybody can have their own beliefs and convictions I don't really mind yeah as long as people don't try to impact me with their ideas and make me believe what they believe then I'm fine and in fact this is what that girl did yeah she tried to convince everybody on the table that the Bible said this and the Bible said that and now we're living at the end of the days and Armageddon judgment day is coming soon and so on it was quite a tough discussion for someone you only met an hour ago

SPEAKER_04 8:46

yeah no I can imagine Imagine that. Yeah, because it's weird because we're living in this sort of like woke culture where everyone's entitled to their opinion and everyone is free to speak their mind and their heart. But yet at the same time, we're quick to be cancelled. There's the judgment that comes along with being very open about your opinion, right? But Stefan, let's get into your story. So tell me again, where does it all begin for you? Your first earliest memories?

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Yeah. So I want to say that I lived two lives, basically. One life and freedom that I'm enjoying right now. And the other life was back in the days when I was a cult member myself. And when I switched between the two lives, it was like a complete cut. I've lost my friends. I've lost the people that I care and who cared about me. And then I started over completely. And looking back, I don't regret it at all. But I think you're more interested to know what happened before that, right?

SPEAKER_04 9:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

Let's Yeah, so I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and probably some of the listeners can understand what that means. Jehovah's Witnesses are the people who usually on the weekends or in the evenings walk from door to door, or at least pre-COVID they did that, and try to convince other people that they have the only true religion. And if you want to live an eternal life, you have to join them. So this is probably the most obvious part about Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses.

SPEAKER_04 10:18

It is a strand of Christianity, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:21

Correct. They would call themselves a Christian religion, the only true religion, of course, like every other religion too. So how do you know?

SPEAKER_04 10:29

Yeah. How were they different? Why would this be a strand of Christianity? How is it different?

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Yeah, I think what is the biggest difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and other religions is that they actually try to make new members. So as I said before, they go from door to door, try to convert people to their beliefs. Also, like, for example, in the friend circle or with more colleagues or when you're a student, you're supposed to talk to your classmates and who knows, maybe at some point when they're older or whatever, they also join the group. And then, of course, they also have some of their own beliefs. For example, they don't believe in hell, which is quite nice to see because personally, I don't really like this concept of hell. So, kind of eternal yeah you'd make some mistakes in your life and then you're damned forever nah I think that's not a nice concept but on the other hand they believe in heaven but only for a certain amount of people so one of the core beliefs is that after judgment day they call it Armageddon basically the final war between good and evil only 144,000 people will go to heaven these people have been pre-selected by some arbitrary criteria and And the rest of the survivors, they will live on Earth forever. So they will basically be immortal. Pretty crazy stuff, huh?

SPEAKER_04 11:55

Yeah, that's really crazy. So in a way, people are motivated to do whatever it takes to find themselves in heaven because it's a select few. But yet on the other side of the world, people are trying to work towards being immortal beings. We're trying to work towards increasing our lifespan.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And

SPEAKER_04 12:13

that's seen as a negative thing, kind of, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:16

I think the majority of people they already accepted their fate that they won't go to heaven anyway because there are like 8.8 million Jehovah's Witnesses at the moment and 144,000 is just a tiny fraction so I think the majority of people they're just happy if they can live happily ever after on earth in certain they call it paradise so imagine this you live forever there is no war no illness no environmental damage and everything is just like paradise or you have everything you need, food, fun, friends, forever, peace. So this is basically the ideal world they're looking forward to. I mean, it would be nice to live in this kind of condition, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Yeah. So it's like either way, you're in a pretty decent, good, happy sort of situation. So how did they then ensure that people were not going out of line?

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Yeah, exactly. So this is the question. Of course, you can only experience these conditions if you follow the rules. Now, what are the rules? You have to go and try to convert strangers to the religion. The more the better. The more you do, basically, the more bonus points you get on your Paradise account. And of course, they are taking several rules from the Bible quite literally. For example, having sex before marriage is not allowed and you can actually get disfollowed, basically removed from the group. if you do things that bad that are against the rules.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

Right. So let me get this correct or right here. If you do not follow the rules or the protocols of the religion or of the cult, the worst that would happen is you would get disbanded or you would get removed from the group.

SPEAKER_05 14:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:07

There is no soul consequence or life consequence. It's just that you will get removed from the group.

SPEAKER_03 14:15

You say that so easily. Just, yeah, but... basically for people like me who were born and raised into this cult, that's losing your entire life. So that would mean losing your friends, losing your family, losing basically everything that you've known and start from zero. And this is exactly what happened to me later on. We will get to that. But of course, this is one of the main reasons why people just stick to the rules, even though it's painful and annoying and it's against nature or people's natural instincts, but they still do it because they fear the consequences. And one of those consequences also being not having the chance to live in paradise forever.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

Yeah. And also, I guess, because you were very young, and I guess a lot of the children that were raised in this, there is a lot of brainwashing as well going on in there that's making you believe that that's your path to life, right?

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Yeah, you can say that. And the brainwashing is actually very simple. At the time when I was a child, there were were three services per week. Every Tuesday evening, every Friday evening, God forbid, literally, God forbid that you have some other plans Friday night. And of course, Sunday morning, just like other churches as well. So three times per week, you have to go to service. And then additionally, for each service, you have to prepare. So that means reading the literature and doing some research on the topics and blah, blah. And then of course, on the other evenings or whenever you have some spare time trying to convert strangers. So this whole lifestyle keeps you busy, very busy.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

Yeah, no, I can imagine. For you, is this a cult that's generally like pretty closed off to the world? You mentioned that people are allowed to sort of go out there and meet people and, you know, introduce them to the religion or the cult and try to convert them. But aside from that, were you still allowed to have friends outside and be in relationships with people outside that were not interested in joining the cult

SPEAKER_03 16:19

they wouldn't usually say something is allowed or not allowed they would probably express it more like it's not recommended so you can almost do whatever you want but then people from the inside will frown upon you so let me make an example if I hang out too much with my friends from school back in the days then the other guys inside the group they wouldn't want to hang out with me anymore because they would fear that I would bring like bad influence on them and then of course my parents would want me to hang out with the people inside so they would basically forbid me to hang out with the school friends so this is the situation right but the people inside is also not that easy

SPEAKER_04 17:04

right so a lot of it is like ostracism right it's like it's sort of like more like

SPEAKER_03 17:09

yeah

SPEAKER_04 17:09

in a way you're almost kind of being bullied into it you're made to feel guilty if you were to do anything

SPEAKER_03 17:15

exactly guilt tripping exactly If you don't follow the exact rules and the more the better, then people will frown upon you. You're being guilt-tripped. And it is not a nice feeling having this for years, decades in my case even.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

How did you even get into it? I mean, you were fairly young when you did join, but you said that you were not born into it, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:37

I was raised into it. So when I was a very, very young child, I don't remember how young my mom joined that group. I don't want to say cult. I don't want to say religion, I say group. And then everybody can judge for themselves. So my mom joined the group and she believed that it's the best for me if she raises me in the same beliefs. And my dad was not religious, so he didn't care. So since I didn't really have any other choice, I had to go to the service and I got brainwashed all the time. And basically, I tried to fit in and I became more and more member of the group. But Something was off. It really feels strange.

SPEAKER_04 18:22

So can you just tell me a little bit, because I've read about this online, about those in the Jehovah's Witness group, they don't allow or they discourage anyone from needles, blood transfusions, any kind of medical intervention from outside hospitals, or kind of inserting anything that belongs to someone that is not within the group. Am I right in saying this?

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Yeah, I think one of the most topics discussed about Jehovah's Witnesses is if you had an accident and you were in desperate need of a blood transfusion, would you take it or would you rather die? And probably more than 99% of the people in the group would probably rather die because then they die with a good conscience and not somehow stained their body. So this is related to some Bible verses which I cannot remember anymore but yes you're right so blood transfusions are not allowed under any circumstance and if you do it you have to expect severe consequences even up until like being disfollowed excluded from the group and the other thing about the needles and maybe you're referring to organ transplants or something about needles I have never heard that is okay like vaccines or drawing blood for some blood test or whatever that has never been a problem at least when I was there and organ transplant I'm not entirely sure at the moment because technically an organ from another person contains some kind of blood so I think people could decide however they want I'm not sure about what would happen in these cases

SPEAKER_04 20:12

right what was the rationale or the reason behind this do you know I

SPEAKER_03 20:16

don't remember There are some Bible verses that are interpreted in a very, very literal way, but they've been written more than 2000 years ago. So I don't think they would apply today. When medicine is so advanced that you can do almost everything today to save a person's life. Yeah, maybe the Bible is not the authority on these topics anymore nowadays.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

Yeah, no, I do think that, you know, with any kind of religion that exists, you know, it's always important to remember that. And just account for the fact that it was written at a time that may not be necessarily applicable to the world today.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

They wanted to be the most pure religion at the time because they believed that all of the other religions that existed at the time were basically not true to the original meaning of the book anymore. So they wanted to be better. They wanted to be clean, pure. And that's probably one of the reasons why so many people fall for it as well, because on the outside, they give themselves an appearance of a religion, of a true believer. of true believers and people who really care about the Bible and so on and so on. But what actually happens is a little bit different.

SPEAKER_04 22:38

Right. Can you talk to me about the concept of sacrifice? Because from what I know, a lot of groups that are very, very tight-knit like this would expect some kind of level of human or individual sacrifice, sacrificing your identity to your community or sacrificing a certain lifestyle or preference

SPEAKER_03 22:59

yeah so the shortest answer is no animals get sacrificed also no humans I think that's a good thing

SPEAKER_04 23:08

okay no lives are sacrificed

SPEAKER_03 23:11

yeah yet who knows maybe we should cut that out yeah but of course you said it right you have to sacrifice your identity because i come back to the example with the friends at school you want to make friends at school i wanted to make friends at school i wanted to fit in but i cannot so i basically have to bend over backwards sacrifice my own identity to fit into the group and this is not a great feeling yeah this is after a while it really feels like you buy clothes two sizes too small and you can move maybe Maybe you can wear them for a few hours, but you cannot really move freely and it pinches here and there. And you're just so happy when you can take off these clothes and be finally free. And this is how I felt for several years, probably 10 years when you count my active membership.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

Right. So you told me that when you were in the group, you spent three days sort of in service in church and those kind of things.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

In the evening, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:20

In the evenings. Can you tell me otherwise, what would your days look like? What were you doing? How were you spending the rest of your time?

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Normal. quite normal. So when I was a child, of course, I went to school, did my homework. And every once in a while, I also hung out with some friends from school. Very limited, though. Majority was inside the group. When I was older, when I was in college, the same thing, actually. When I had an actual job, of course, the majority of time during the day is spent at work. And then in the evening, you always need to remember, oh, I need to prepare for the service tomorrow. Oh, I still need to go and try to convert other people. Oh, I still have to do this and that and so on. So you have this constant thought in the back of your head that you're not enough, that you're not doing enough, and that you can actually do more and you should do more if you want to live in paradise in the end. So you're never enough. And this is actually a very good summary. You always can do more and people expect you to do more in order to get a better reputation inside the group.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

Right. How involved was your mom and your your You said your stepdad also was a part of it. How involved were they? What were they doing? How were they contributing? In all aspects, all areas. So it can be financially and it can also be, you know, in terms of their days. What were they doing? How were they servicing?

SPEAKER_03 25:44

So they would do like what is expected. And I would also always try to do more. And because of this encourage, right? People actually get praised publicly during those services if they can do exceptionally more than other people so it's always like a kind of rat race that you can only barely win just to keep you busy just to keep your mind busy and occupied so you don't even get any idea of I don't know going out to party as a teenager or young adult or make other friends or start dating with people who are not in the cult and so on and so on so your mind is constantly occupied with religious things that you should do more and more and more yeah

SPEAKER_04 26:29

You mentioned that if they didn't follow, other than being disbanded or removed from the group, what were some other ways that they were sort of punishing the individual for not following rules?

SPEAKER_03 26:41

One way that I remember clearly is you get like a serious talk with one of the elders. So the elders are the people who are in charge who deal with the organizational topics and who are basically respected by the entire congregation. And if, for example, as a teenager or young adult if you get caught drinking or smoking then you get a serious talk with them and you have to explain yourself why you did that and how you're not going to do this ever again and you don't want to justify a cigarette or too many drinks to some people who are like 70 years old and have no idea how teenagers or young adults nowadays live this is very embarrassing very awkward conversation as well

SPEAKER_04 27:29

Do the punishments ever get more severe? If say you did it again and

SPEAKER_03 27:35

again and again? to see some friends from school and it was a birthday party so as you know birthdays are not allowed and my parents for some reason came back into my room didn't find me so you can imagine what was going through their heads right it took them a while asking the neighbors and then finally they realized I might be at this party and this is where they found me with the drink in my hand and in the other hand a cigarette so that was no joke yeah I think I was grounded for I don't know maybe a month and I wasn't allowed to read any books or watch any TV or play games or whatever except religious stuff except literature that was basically whitelisted by the group that was one of my experiences that I would not recommend to anybody this is painful to be trapped in this situation

SPEAKER_04 28:53

yeah that's

SPEAKER_03 28:54

really difficult even triggers me now

SPEAKER_04 28:57

yeah I can see that The method of sort of like handling something like this is throwing more literature and books on you to kind of remind you of where your path kind of should be. And especially for a teenager who already kind of is a little bit in between two worlds, you are getting a glimpse of what life is like outside. You have friends outside, you have people that are outside. Do you agree that for you, it was looking at people that were on the outside and realizing that they would doing just as fine as the people on the inside that made you kind of realize why am I fighting so hard to be a part of something when I could be fine on the outside it's there's no consequence quite like they say there is

SPEAKER_03 29:42

at least not now yeah but still according to the beliefs of the group if you are on the outside during the Armageddon during Judgment Day you'll die so you better stay inside

SPEAKER_05 29:55

right

SPEAKER_03 29:56

so it's a little bit like short-term and long-term rewards, right? You sacrifice now for the long term, but who knows if that's going to happen? Who knows when? So, yeah, as a child, this is very difficult to comprehend.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

Yeah. Now, you had access to free internet at this point, so you were able to sort of see the debates against Armageddon and Judgment Day and all of that as well, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:21

I think that's very flattering, but I think when I was a child, there was no internet around.

SPEAKER_05 30:26

Well,

SPEAKER_03 30:28

yeah. Yeah, so basically, Basically, I didn't have any other channel to educate myself. I only read and received the information that other people fed me at the time.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

Did you ever live through one of those judgment days that they claimed? Or did they ever give a date?

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Yeah, if I remember correctly, 1974 or 75 or something, they expected something to happen, basically the end of the world. And then, yeah, the final battle between good and evil did not happen I think in the very very early days around 1914 there was another thing and I think after those two hours they were became smart enough to not predict the future anymore and they just said okay sorry yeah it comes when it comes you just need to be patient and yeah I'm not a patient kind of person so that takes too long

SPEAKER_04 31:23

but I mean that I can't help but feel like that just begs the question of the whole system must create It's a fantastic question.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

I cannot answer. If your belief in your wishful thinking is so strong that you sacrifice everything else that you would like to do or who you would like to be, yeah, that's a good question. then you don't have a big problem. And to be honest, the people inside the group, each individual, they're good people. They truly believe that they're helping others by trying to convert them. And I believe they truly believe that they're trying to rescue them from being dead forever.

SPEAKER_04 32:57

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Also, what I would like to mention, if you ever have a problem, for example, you move to another place, you can always count on the other members to help you pack your stuff and then load it onto the truck and then on the other side they unload it again so wherever you go you already have a group you belong to but you only belong to them if you follow the rules and these rules are strict

SPEAKER_02 33:23

now I've always been a fan of the underdog. It's hard not to be inspired or hopeful about whatever's going on in our life when listening to someone else talk about how they overcame their own struggles. I'm talking about real stories told by real people, those we can relate to.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

2019 was the day that I said, you know what? I'm done with everything and I can't drink. I can't smoke weed. I can't do drugs. I'm done.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

We're faced with two decisions in life. One of them is to accept things the way that they are. And the other, accept responsibility to change the situation. This is what taking accountability for one's livelihood looks like, feels like, and sounds like.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

I love helping people, but that wasn't who I was when I went to prison. Definitely not. That's who I've always wanted to be. I just didn't know how to get there. So learning how to forgive, express how I'm feeling, You know, whether through talk or writing has really, really helped.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Sharing in the unique human experience. We're connecting with everyday folks who've navigated past their own hurdles and difficult times. And in their own right, they're walking like giants amongst us. Check us out at giantsamongstus.com to stay plugged in and find out how you can hear more. Again, it's giantsamongstus.com. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 34:57

Can you tell me a little bit about a memory that really stands out to you? I know you talked about the one at the cinema, but any other very, very specific memories that stand out to you?

SPEAKER_03 35:07

I don't have any specific memories anymore. It's really a long time ago. But what I remember is that it's basically very monotonous. So you have your weekly schedule with your services and week by week it goes by. Every once in a while you go to the movies and you meet some friends for some board games or whatever. You do these But the majority is just do more, be better, donate more money, do more service, do better service, do more research, convince yourself about their beliefs more and more and more. It's always more and more. So there was a constant expectation. I don't think I have any specific memory that sticks out at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 35:50

Would you be given more points or would you be seen as more of a loyal member if you called out somebody else that broke Oh

SPEAKER_03 35:59

yeah, absolutely. And I actually did that once. I'm not proud of that. Yeah, I don't remember how old I was, maybe 14 or something. And I learned from one of the girls who was similar age, maybe a few years younger, that suddenly she had a boyfriend. And of course, that guy was not inside the group. So I actually called her out and snitched on her. Yeah. I still feel ashamed for that. Shouldn't have done it. But yeah, beliefs can be quite strong.

SPEAKER_04 36:30

Are women and men treated differently?

SPEAKER_03 36:32

Yeah. Yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

And so I can see now why you say a little bit about why you feel so bad about it. I mean, obviously you would feel bad if it was another male as well, but I would assume that for women it would be worse?

SPEAKER_03 36:47

I don't know exactly how much trouble she got from this, but since she was like a teenager or even younger, Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

But, you know, I can imagine this also being a very isolating experience in the sense that you are being trained and groomed into this, you know, you snitch on other people, you are going to be a step ahead, you are going to be closer to, you know, attaining that kind of paradise that, you know, they see.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

you basically prove your loyalty

SPEAKER_04 37:28

yeah right and so in a sense while it is very community oriented it is also very isolating you have to stand by each other but at the same time you're encouraged to snitch on each other yeah

SPEAKER_03 37:40

yeah because if you do this then you basically keep the community clean right you eradicate bad influences from the outside or people who are like half in half out yeah a little bit here and there you keep the community clean Right. So then

SPEAKER_04 38:00

how did you go on to continue to trust the people within the community, your friends, your family? How did you trust them?

SPEAKER_03 38:09

If you don't know anything else, you trust them automatically.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

But on the same hand, you're always looking over your shoulder, you know, in case somebody sees you. These very friends, these very family members could snitch on you and you could very much be a target. So you trust them, you know them, you love them, you care about them. But on the other side, you know that it's me against them too, to

SPEAKER_03 38:34

an extent, right? friends on the inside who have like a similar mindset who are also not entirely sure should they continue and then basically there's a subculture forming a group of people who actually like to go out and drink even though it's not very welcome inside the group and the majority of people wouldn't accept it and then you go out and drink and you go out to party and you do whatever you want and then the people would just be quiet and wouldn't tell anybody but of course you need to find the right people to do this kind of stuff otherwise somebody's gonna snitch on you right right so as you said before yeah you always need to look over your shoulder if somebody sees you for example you go out to a certain nightclub and somebody in the group sees you walking along the street as a girl maybe not dressed very traditionally not very conservatively as a guy already halfway drunk so no you don't want this to be the discussion the next Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 39:58

Did you have certain clothing that you had to wear? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:02

During the services, you wear a suit. Actually, always. Whenever something religious is going on, you wear a suit. And of course, a dress or maybe blouse and skirt for women. Yeah, it's very conservative.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

Interesting. You just talked earlier about exiting this group. Tell me about that. Tell me about how you did it, how you executed it. What was your plan? What were your thoughts? How did you feel?

SPEAKER_03 40:27

Afraid. Before that moment, I felt extremely scared because... It is a new chapter, completely new, and I had no experience whatsoever in how to continue my life. But after I've done it, it was so relieving. So what I did is actually very simple. During these undecided years, I convinced myself more and more that actually this cult doesn't do me any good. Yeah, it is just a waste of time, waste of energy, and I could do so much more with my life and become more successful and so on and so on, that I just decided to to write a letter to the elders of the congregation at the time saying, I don't want to be part of this anymore. Do not contact me anymore. I will not come back. I will not change my mind and send it out. And I think a few weeks later, there was a public announcement during one of these services that I'm not a member anymore. And that's it. Very simple. And I think three or four people tried to tell me, oh, you know, you're always welcome when you decide to come back. And I'm like, nah. Thank you. No, thank you. Won't happen.

SPEAKER_04 41:37

What about with your parents and your siblings, family?

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Yeah, technically my parents are not allowed. My family, let's say the people who are in the group, they're not allowed to contact me if there's nothing really urgent going on, like somebody dying or whatever. But technically families should not contact me anymore because this will probably make me realize that I'm going to miss them so much that I come back. Nah, didn't happen so far.

SPEAKER_04 42:10

So where did you go after? You were on your own.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

Yeah, exactly. But I have to admit, every once in a while I talk to my parents nowadays, maybe once in three months or something on WhatsApp. That's okay. That's good enough. They won't get in trouble for that. And it's just enough to catch up every once in a while. And that's okay. I hear nowadays those rules have been loosened up a little bit. I I think maybe otherwise they would lose too many members. I don't know. But it's not that strict anymore as it was back in my days.

SPEAKER_04 42:41

So tell me a little bit about, yeah, where did you go after?

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Yeah, I didn't really know where to go. So I started making friends with neighbors and socialize with people who also left the group before. And yeah, so to slowly, slowly build a new friend circle. And of course, this takes time. And yeah, as I said before, at the very beginning, I started a new life. I started hanging out with colleagues as well. And if you move to a new city, how do you make friends? Everybody who you meet could be a potential friend. So you just start socializing and talking to people and so on and so on. And yeah, this is what I did. And it took me a while to build up a new friend circle here.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

But did you leave your city very soon after you left the group or did you have some time there before you left?

SPEAKER_03 43:29

I left the group when I was 27 and I left Germany when I was was 29. So during those two years, I slowly built a new friend circle. But yeah, you cannot do too much in that short time, right? But soon enough, I moved to Shanghai anyway, and I started a new life there again. So there was also a new chapter that would not have been possible if I had stayed with the group at all.

SPEAKER_04 43:57

Right. No, that's crazy. I mean, you know, I'm going to just go back to the very beginning of the episode where you said that that you feel like you've lived two lives. But in a way, you've kind of gone through the cycle of restarting, pressing that reset button over and over, actually many times. So in a way, it gets easier, it gets more comfortable. You get more comfortable in that sort of space of discomfort or newness, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:23

Yeah, nothing happens in the comfort zone, you know? If you want to develop, you need to break out of the comfort zone and challenge yourself to grow, yeah? That's normal. It's not nice. It doesn't feel good, but it's necessary at some point.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

Yeah. What were some of the things that you had to unlearn and relearn again post leaving the group?

SPEAKER_03 44:47

So one of the topics is my relationship to holidays. So you probably know that Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate birthdays. They don't celebrate Christmas because they believe it's not a Christian holiday. After all, the same applies to Easter and some other things as well, which are I forgot now the details. But yeah, as a child, as a teenager, even now, hey, I enjoy celebrating a decent birthday, right? So whenever it's my birthday, I gather some few people and then we go crazy. We go mad. This is something that I'm catching up on now, right? So for 27 years of my life, I wasn't allowed to have a decent birthday. Well, now I'm making up for that. Believe me.

SPEAKER_04 45:31

Do you feel like your relationship with Even things like alcohol and smoking and all of that. Like, how did that change? Because that was also

SPEAKER_03 45:38

very restricted. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

What about the whole concept of guilt? How were you able to remove that self-conversation, that guilt and that shame that you felt when you were getting out and doing these things that you knew was looked down upon?

SPEAKER_03 46:34

really scary stuff I wouldn't have watched when I was in a cult no no no that is a no no and nowadays I'm watching these things even though they're still pretty scary but I know it's just a movie it is not real and it won't hurt me when I was a child people would tell me that if you watch these things they become real and you actually have to be afraid of ghosts and spirits and whatever nowadays I'm like nah this is just fairy tale to keep the people in line. But I still wouldn't buy a Ouija board or something. Still a little bit scary. Okay, thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_04 47:22

Okay, so Stefan, can you tell me what's the recruitment process into the Jehovah's Witness in specific? What are the steps of getting in?

SPEAKER_03 47:31

Actually, it's not so easy to get in. because you have to make a conscious decision that you really want to join this cult or this group in this case. So usually you would be recruited if somebody knocks at your door and then they will ask you, hey, have you heard about the latest news or do you think there is a God or all these very open questions and then they start talking to you about their beliefs and then what they think the Bible says about this. Or another question could be, why Why do you think there's so much evil in this world? And just try to start a normal conversation with you. And before you know it, they will take out some of their own literature and they will show you what the group believes. And it sounds actually reasonable for somebody who didn't even think about this before. And then what will happen is if you agree to continue this kind of study, they call it Bible study. And then after a while, they will bring more and more literature to you and they will come to you house and then you will also be slowly included into the group you will meet more people you will make some friends but of course only as long as you follow the rules right if you don't follow you don't have friends anymore and at some point they will ask you hey do you want to be baptized and baptized in this sense means do you actually want to join the group as an official member and then if you had studied long enough the literature printed by the group then they will ask you some theory radical questions. Do you know about this? Do you know about that? It's like a test, like an entry test. And if you pass this, then you will be baptized at the next public event. They call this public conventions. And then for everybody to see that you are now part of the group and then you're locked in.

SPEAKER_04 49:26

What does that baptism look like?

SPEAKER_03 49:28

It's not like in the church that we know, but it's like a full sub emerging in the water, full body, once. It basically symbolizes that your old life dies and you start fresh with a new life.

SPEAKER_04 49:43

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think also because they've kept it so close to what the Christian sort of church process is, maybe people feel a little bit more like there's that familiarity, there's that comfort, you know. I

SPEAKER_03 49:55

think the majority of churches, they only just sprinkle some water on the people's heads. They don't have this full submerging into the water. I think only the Baptists have that. I think they're familiar Okay,

SPEAKER_04 50:11

so question for you, Stefan. What message would you like to get across? And I want to just extend this a little bit more by saying, for example, if somebody could be in a situation like this, where they could be recruited by a religious group, what are the things do they need to look out for? And how can they sort of protect themselves to make sure that what they're being recruited into is something legitimate and, you know, more, not, you know, kind of like a cult.

SPEAKER_03 50:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think one of the most obvious things is that these groups usually try to give themselves an appearance of being legit, legitimate religious groups following Jesus or whoever. And then from the outside, they always try to become a religion, even like in a legal way, not only a group that exists like a club, but they want to be officially recognized as a religion by the government. This is is often the case. Then the next thing is what I think is dangerous. If they try to change you, if they try to give you arbitrary rules that you actually don't want to follow, but you can only join this group if you follow and something inside yourself is just like resisting that it doesn't feel natural to you and you have to bend over backwards to fit in. This is another sign that it could be a dangerous group. So they basically try to control you from the top with some kind of hierarchy and try to make everybody go in the same direction, fit in, and there's no critical thinking allowed, I would say. leaders there and you will receive a bad reputation so all these things are warning signs and you need to be very careful not to fall for the good parts like for example the society and the closeness of the people when there are so many dangers also present at the same time and one more thing that i would like to mention is these groups they often try to control their members as i said but this also means like taking their time and taking their money so we talked about Yeah, I suppose

SPEAKER_04 52:48

it depends on kind of how they justify the donations and if they explain where these donations are actually going and making it transparent, giving you the freedom to donate, how much you feel comfortable donating without, you know, actually interfering with your own standard of life, right? But I just want to add one more question just to come to a conclusion. go a little bit deeper into this. Because what I'm hearing is quite in the later on stages when you already have been recruited and to an extent are kind of already in the group. What about the very, very early stages, the very initial stages of them meeting you and they're trying to sell this idea to you? Is there anything that we can look out for in those very beginning stages? I

SPEAKER_03 53:30

think here the only thing that is really obvious is the religious part. So as soon as you contact somebody and they try to convince you about some kind of religious belief that you may have never heard before or that sounds a little bit odd to you I recommend do some research online ask somebody that you trust maybe talk to your mental health professional which you can find online somewhere and try to get more resources more information on that to be very objective and don't get pushed or pressured into joining some group that you don't really understand stand yet because you're still an outsider. And the more you get closer to this group, the more people you will contact with and you will feel nice because the people love bomb you. This is a term that I learned before. They are so nice to you that they feel comfortable and it feels easy going and it's nice because they help each other and everything. But this is a scam. It's a trick.

SPEAKER_04 54:32

Yeah. Now, I really like what you said earlier about really doing the research. The very early stages, they know they have not reeled you in yet. So they're definitely going to paint a beautiful, colorful picture. But you also have the freedom to do the research, to ask other people outside and inside and everywhere to get a full picture before you make any decision. And it might look very tempting to it's like, oh, it's just one meeting. It's just the first one. But that very first one can be the game changer, right? So Yeah, no, I agree. can we give an individual who's chosen to leave? They're fresh out of it and they're seeing the world in a different perspective. They're having this massive shift. How can we support them?

SPEAKER_03 55:44

be open don't judge the people for their history because they will definitely have different views than you and me by now try to be open try to understand where they're coming from try to help them to fit into the real world because coming from this kind of organization it's not the same it's really a big difference and yeah just try to be friendly and nice and yeah be supportive they will probably Probably face some issues, how to behave in certain situations, how to deal with people, how to develop their own new belief system. And yeah, if they ever ask for advice, just be open and helpful as much as possible. That's what I would do.

SPEAKER_04 56:31

100% because I mean, I would imagine they would still be very sensitive and they would be swinging from direction to direction. One minute they're like, no, I'm very anti it. One minute they're like, no, but maybe I should go back. So it can be very challenging. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 56:45

yeah. On the other hand, if you go back to Jehovah's Witnesses, you always have a stigma as the guy who left and then came back. So once you make the decision and you pull it off, it's very much advice to not go back.

SPEAKER_04 56:59

Interesting. Stefan, thank you so much for your time on this podcast and sharing a story. I can really sense that it's something that is very deeply personal and there were moments where, you know, you were feeling a little bit emotional about it. So now I really appreciate that you came on and shared your story with us.

SPEAKER_03 57:18

Thank you so much for giving me this chance.

SPEAKER_04 57:24

Thank you for watching. Multispective.