054 Living with Congestive Heart Failure (CHF)

In today's episode we hear from Ina Shah, an Indian-American residing in Michigan, whose battle with congestive heart failure has led her to confront mortality multiple times with resilience. Despite the challenges posed by her illness, Ina has found strength and solace in her cultural roots, actively participating in local Indian community events and festivals while integrating into American life. Her journey has deeply shaped her perspective on life and death, emphasizing the importance of cherishing each moment and finding joy amidst adversity. Her story not only inspires but also highlights the power of cultural identity and community in navigating life's uncertainties with courage and resilience.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

My heart was not able to pump blood as effectively as a normal person's heart. Okay, you are at stage two heart failure.

SPEAKER_00: 0:17

Hi guys, Jenica here from Multispective and I'm here to share with you a new episode where I interview Ina Shah. She talks about a congenitive heart failure that she sort of lived with throughout her childhood and the ways that it impacted not only her but also her family. She's an immigrant, an Indian born and raised in the US and it's really interesting how, you know, her perspective or her take on death or on family connection or on a bound Ena. Welcome to Multispective. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. Yeah. So this is really exciting for me because I think you might be the first fellow Indian guest I'm having on the podcast. So it's kind of cool to be interviewing someone that I guess in a sense I can relate to in that sense as well. And just like you, I'm an Indian but born and raised outside of India. So a little bit multicultural sort of environment here. Can you tell me a little bit? Yeah, tell us a little bit about your upbringing and whereabouts are you?

SPEAKER_01: 1:49

Yeah, so my parents both immigrated to the US in 2000 and they immigrated because of job prospects. So my mom at the time, she was a homemaker. My dad was in IT. So he rode the IT wave in the early 2000s, got hit by it pretty badly as well. I was born actually in a hotel. My dad was working the IT at a hotel when I was born because he got a contract in California but then immediately when the dot-com burst he was kicked out of it so then he had to basically scramble to find a job because of immigration like laws I feel like they're very similar now too it's like if you don't have a job in like a few months then like you're out like you have to go back to India and that was their plan to go back to India at that time but my mom was pregnant with me so she couldn't leave exactly And it was a complicated pregnancy as well. So it just made it harder. And she didn't get the approval to fly such a long flight. So they had to make ends meet. So that's when my dad like literally drove all the way from California to Buffalo, New York. I mean, if you aren't familiar with America's geography, it is like from West Coast to East Coast. Yeah. So

SPEAKER_00: 3:02

it

SPEAKER_01: 3:04

took them like five days or something is what they say. My dad like just to make ends meet. He worked IT at a hotel at the time. I first moments of life were in a hotel like after the hospital so very interesting story um so definitely not like the most like glamorous one but soon after stuff got better like we had like a really good life afterwards and so I feel like upbringing wise my home I always like to say that like inside my home it's very Indian outside my home is very non-Indian in like my family's perspective we try to find like Indian family friends I don't know I go back to India and I'm like

SPEAKER_00: 3:42

It's not that different. Yeah, for sure. I can connect with people. Is there quite a big community of Indians? There is a huge

SPEAKER_01: 4:17

community. I moved. We moved about three years ago. My main childhood was spent in Michigan. Michigan, huge Indian community. I think we found quite a bit of community. I think that's what stuck us there for quite a bit of time as well. Society-wise, all bounded by religion, surprisingly. I feel like We're Jains, so there's, like, a Jain temple in a few miles outside Detroit. So that was probably, like, the first thing, like, that, like, my parents always did when everybody came to a new state was that they always went to the temple first. And you get so much about the community because, like, the priest knows everyone who comes to the

SPEAKER_00: 5:00

temple. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So

SPEAKER_01: 5:01

through the priest, they just got connected with so many families, just, like, so much. That's, like, a lot when, like, religion connects a community. But, like, in America, it's, like, a little bit more harder to make friends that way. just because everyone values privacy a lot more comparably to indians yeah so i think religion is like a very easy way for people to make friends here

SPEAKER_00: 5:22

right yeah exactly what has that done for like your own personal identity though do you feel like you've taken little bits of you know the indian culture and background and then also bits of the western ones or would you say you really strongly identify as an indian

SPEAKER_01: 5:38

see that's a very interesting question because i low key thing that I have two personalities. I've spoken about this quite a bit with people actually going off of the Jainism part. There's also a group called Young Jains of America, which combines all people my age and 14 to 29 in America. It's a big organization cut off and we have conventions and meetings all the time. I actually went to one of the retreats a few weeks ago and That was actually a huge part. It was like, how much has Jainism affected your life? And one of the main things in that was that I, growing up from age six, I want to say, I have been so involved with my temple. Going to different prayers, going to different functions, everything. Because my parents' social life was tied to that bull, which meant that mine was as well. And I found a lot of my close friends through temple. I found a lot of my community through that temple as well. Talk to me about,

SPEAKER_00: 6:39

because you brought up religion and that being a baseline sort of for your, maybe your identity and your, you know, seeking out of friends and community and belonging. What would have, what would happen if you had decided today that I don't, I don't identify too strongly with this particular religion. Actually, I want to explore other religions or I don't want to associate too strongly with one. I just want to be free from it all and kind of just like, you know, spread, spread out a little bit and kind of meet different people of different cultures. Like, how do you think your parents would take it?

SPEAKER_01: 7:12

Honestly, I think my dad would take it amazingly because he's been going on a Buddhism track these days. Interesting. Okay. Bro found, like, a book. It's called The Wise Heart, if anyone's interested. But apparently it describes Buddhism philosophy very well. I asked for him. He's encouraged me to read it. I've yet to get to it. But he's, like, found similarities between Jains and Buddhism. That would be, like, a very, like, if you want to get coffee with him, like, that is what he will talk to you about.

SPEAKER_00: 7:40

Right, right. So

SPEAKER_01: 7:41

it seems very explorative in that way so I think it would not be a problem for me like even like the basis of Jainism is live and let live the entire religion is rooted on the basis of I don't harm any beings and I do not like not that I do not expect to get harmed by beings but if I do I will not harm back almost like the entire thing of Jainism is like not eating meat not eating like root vegetables anything like all of it is like not harming beings so I think a lot of it is not just like constrained to you have to follow your own religion i feel like it's a lot like you can follow whatever beliefs bring the most peace to you i want to say can

SPEAKER_00: 8:23

you talk to us a little bit about the root vegetables what what does that have to do with harming of beings

SPEAKER_01: 8:29

yeah so scientifically a root vegetable because it grows underground it has a lot more beings attached to and these beings they aren't like ants or whatever they're like one sensed to sense beings like microorganisms attached to these vegetables and especially when you pull them out from the ground it like harms a lot of more than it would be than say like you're picking like a strawberry off of a bush and that has been subject to being like when we pull them out it hurts beings like you're hurting more beings by pulling out say like a potato from the ground then it would be like again from the strawberry off of a bush so that's why janes they tend not to eat root vegetables. It's

SPEAKER_00: 9:13

difficult living in this world. I would think that probably only India is the only place that you could live a completely Jain diet outside of the home. But anywhere else, it's hard to ask a restaurant not to put any garlic in their food. It's hard to

SPEAKER_01: 9:30

find vegetarian food, let alone find food without onion and garlic and potatoes and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00: 9:36

No, that's crazy. But what other kinds of philosophies do they believe in that you feel um you can connect with you can relate to and you know as a community it sort of brought you closer to

SPEAKER_01: 9:47

and because like there's a karmic theory as well that's actually really good jane's believe a lot in karma like that you are and whatever is happening to you in your life right now is a series of all the past deeds that you've done like in my situation what like a lot of people have said is that like it's good because like me going through this is like me getting rid of like a bunch of like the bad karma that i've got gone through in the past few lives so that is like the reason i mean everybody tries to justify everything in life so i guess this is like a justification if you think about it in one way but that is like how like people at least janes like refer to like the world in that way that like something really good happens to you oh good like all of your good karma like paid off something bad happens to you at least you'll be getting rid of your bad karma because in our thing it's like okay like say i don't know you you get into a car crash like someone crashes into your car god forbid that ever happens to you but say if it does then it's like in your past life you may have harmed someone in the same way that they are harming you in this way right now and usually they say that there's like accounts almost say somebody comes into your life as like a partner or what as like a sister or like any like close relationship like that meant that like you still have like some like unresolved duties or like interactions left with them that you were not able to finish in like your past life and thus you met again in this

SPEAKER_00: 11:15

life

SPEAKER_01: 11:16

yeah you don't finish out your account or whatever it's like that's also the thing it's like jainism's like you die but your soul never dies it's like your soul just keeps on getting recycled and recycled and recycled

SPEAKER_00: 11:27

yeah yeah

SPEAKER_01: 11:28

that um you keep on meeting all these other souls.

SPEAKER_00: 12:15

So, you know, this would be a really good segue into your story because, you know, I think listeners right now really want to know what is this karmic sort of view that you owe to this universe. Exactly. And, you know, and I want to bookmark this question for after we delve into your story because I feel like, you know, it's so, yeah, I mean, I don't know how I would feel about, you know, if people were just to find my, you know, situation with that. But let's begin with getting into your story first. So please, the floor is yours.

SPEAKER_01: 12:51

Yeah, I really don't know what to say. I mean, I feel like I do have to introduce myself in that way with the story. But yeah, I'm not getting into too much detail. Let's just say that I'm in my early 20s from an Indian family and dealing or was dealing with quite a bit of heart issues that have thankfully, unfortunately, been lesser heart issues in the past few months. So

SPEAKER_00: 13:19

is there a term for these this heart issue that you're experiencing?

SPEAKER_01: 13:23

So congestive heart failure, CHF, I feel like I can go into a lot of more medical terms, but I'm not sure if they will be understood by people. So I guess like, in very vague terms, my heart is just like it was not able to pump blood as efficiently and as effectively as a normal person's heart would be able to. And thus, it took quite a few months to get it to the point that it was at because there was a lot of fluid retention. There was a lot of minor problems to it as well. And then thankfully, in the past month and a half, I've been able to get a device implanted right here that has helped my heart. Pump blood better.

SPEAKER_00: 14:13

Right. Like a

SPEAKER_01: 14:15

pacemaker.

SPEAKER_00: 14:42

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 14:43

so its job really is to control heart rhythm and give shocks when needed. So it's basically there just to be like, okay, say I'm out and about my daily life and it feels like a shock is needed. I won't have to basically run to the hospital. It will just do its job while I'm doing life.

SPEAKER_00: 15:09

Right, okay. So it's good in the sense that it's pretty non non-intrusive it's not

SPEAKER_01: 15:14

intrusive in that sense yeah that it like it it's there it's gonna be there for quite a bit of time forever but it's not like i can like move around and stuff and like it won't harm me

SPEAKER_00: 15:26

right yeah so when did you when did you sort of you or your family sort of notice that something was not quite right for you what what actually happened that made you

SPEAKER_01: 15:36

yeah so basically long story short um i had hypoglycemia hypoglycemia for um quite a few years prior to this december 2022 i got a pancreatic surgery which elevated those symptoms and elevated that condition to quite a minimum but during that week we found out that okay i may be very susceptible to heart disease in the near future considering how much of a toll this condition has taken on me for the past few years so going off of that we were like okay let's just focus on um sure like recovery everything like and the doctor was also like this is always probable like everyone in this world is at risk for heart disease you are a little bit more that is how my doctor put it as and my doctor was like we'll monitor we'll see what happens and we'll see how it goes like there's nothing to be like you don't need to like have like regular visits with the cardiologist right now like we'll see how it goes so from there it went to almost exactly Exactly a year ago. So a year ago, I started feeling a lot more like heaviness, tightness, like, just like, it just didn't feel good in the heart, like in like the chest region. And that concerned me and my family enough to okay, let's go check it out. So we get it checked out everything. And that's where it's like, okay, you are at stage two heart failure. So

SPEAKER_00: 17:05

at that point, were you okay, what was going through your head? Were you like, okay, wait, now we really need to delve into this. Like, what really is this? What

SPEAKER_01: 17:13

does it mean? I genuinely thought it was insane anxiety or something at that point. I was not expecting heart failure or any sort of tag of a cardiac condition. In anything, I was expecting something with my pancreas or something. That's where my mind was going. Everyone's body is weird. I've heard stories during my time here of people's legs hurting and something's wrong with like their shoulder or whatever like the body's connected very weirdly so i genuinely did not think of cardiac like that was not my thing so just like getting into that was i was in denial for quite a bit of time i want to say i was in denial for about like five to six months about it wow like i went through it like i knew like i feel like i don't even know like what like the mental word of it was but like my like my knew what i was going through like my mind was very aware but like my or maybe like my subconscious was very aware of like what was going on but my mind just did not want to accept it so all through all the procedures all the hospital stays everything my mind would try to just be okay I am normal I am fine nothing's happened to me

SPEAKER_00: 18:30

right

SPEAKER_01: 18:31

and that's like where I was like I was trying to live my normal life I was trying to do everything normal I didn't like I tried to block this out of my mind and my own life that like I don't know like I don't even know if I was trying to like fool myself or not with it but like I was just in denial until like October 22 it hit me more that okay you know like you're actually going through something you're actually like this is an actual problem and I think at that point like I went through like a very tough time like mentally that it was like a very big like thing that okay this is an actual thing in you you like because like it was like a lot of things where I had like that then stuff like looming around me in the months before but for some reason I just didn't accept it like completely like mentally I was like I was like trying to like make peace with it like okay it's fine like it's like at one point in my mind I was like not to offend anyone but it was like okay life isn't that important anyway like it's fine like I've done what I wanted to do right it was like I don't know mentally how to describe like how I was at that time but it was just like it didn't hit me completely until

SPEAKER_00: 19:38

later right so like on the one hand you were you wanted to repress this as much as possible and lead your life as normal in hopes that maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I tell myself enough that I'm okay, then I will be okay. Yeah, I can fake it until I

SPEAKER_01: 19:54

make it.

SPEAKER_00: 19:55

Yeah, exactly. Until I couldn't fake it anymore. Exactly, right. And then you have the other side of you that's kind of like downplaying the actual situation from maybe potentially how bad it is because you, again, are trying to appease your to be like okay no it's fine it's not it's not gonna matter anyways like i've done i've done whatever i need to do like it's fine like what about at home no sorry go ahead yeah like what about at home like your parents family community like were they sort of like bombarding you with it reminding you of it you know or were they sort of just like okay just we're just gonna pretend it's not existing as well

SPEAKER_01: 20:32

so it was kind of the opposite where i was very much like i'm fine like i think because i'm also only child i don't know if i mentioned that or not but I'm an only child as well and my parents like you know Indian parents uber protective like good thing like the story that like I told you about how I was born and everything it was like my parents were like their number one mission in life like and as much as I love them respect them I don't know if this is like the most healthiest upbringing or not for me but their number one mission was that Ina be comfortable like be comfortable Ina be happy Ina be safe right after that nothing else matters for them right and in situations like this where you have to go to the doctor, you have to, like, begin these, like, crazy, like, procedures, you have to have these, like, insane things done to you, that protectiveness increases tenfold if not, like, a thousandfold. Like, that amount of whatever can make Ina comfortable is what we will do. And my mom, she was sitting next to me, and, like, her face would just be, like, I don't know, like, how to describe it but it would be like so much worry that like in a way I felt and I feel like a lot of like health guilt come like guilt and patience is like a very big thing because it's like your guilt that people around you have to go through so much because of you and that even like you have to go through so much but like I feel like a lot of it is like your loved ones are going through so much because of you and your loved ones do it without a complaint do it without support like they have their sleepless nights they have everything and then you're like okay did I just like I caused it myself like in a way because like you can't sadly you can't like detach your condition from your own self so you have like and you're just like over there thinking like okay I caused myself this condition I'm causing everyone pain

SPEAKER_00: 22:33

and you know this is actually making me think about something that you said earlier like that I'm kind of sort of seeing why in a way you were convinced everything was okay it was like you were convincing that to yourself to you know put it aside but also you were probably trying to convince your parents that too on the outside reminding them that hey look nothing to worry about look I'm fine like hey look I'm comfortable I'm living that life like you guys can just relax I wanted to ask because with something like I can completely understand I feel like to an extent as well me being an Indian I can relate to that you know our parents really they live their lives for us right and they they do it sometimes what their version of a happy life or a happy future for us and without realizing that the impact of their worry it can be really really you know negatively impacting our mental health too because then we end up living a life feeling obligated to keep them happy at all times or to give them this image that hey look i'm fine like i'm great i'm doing perfectly fine so it ends up becoming this sort of like psychological cycle where we want them to feel comfortable they want us to feel comfortable and so we're just feeding each other this thing and the actual reality of like me having a mental breakdown over what's happening cannot be revealed to them by in by any means because god forbid they find out that i'm panicking like all hell would break loose exactly 10 times right so i get that but can you talk to me about and yeah about boundaries so i think i think the boundaries is a is a the reason why I asked this question is because sometimes it is necessary it is a difficult conversation sometimes to have with parents especially when you know they're coming from a very good place and well-intentioned but also recognizing that this is heavy on me watching this is adding guilt to what I'm already experiencing I've got to draw a line here yeah what that's what's happened like for you

SPEAKER_01: 24:38

I feel like that is like it's funny because that has been something that I've struggled with in the past two to three years I want to say is that like me getting into college like trying to have like a little bit more of like because I feel like my parents like they also like they haven't gone to college here they've gone to college in India and their time in like college is very different than mine and not to say like college itself but just like me growing up and I think like with this medical part of my life they are very involved and they have all right to be involved as well I mean like I don't know which parent does not want to know what their child is like going through like medically or if like their child is in deep trouble and whatnot and in this part like I was in deep trouble in a way like I like definitely need my parents and my parents would just be like okay and my parents are a little bit like I want to say like firefighters in a way like firefighter is like a good like example that they are like I want everything that is best for my daughter like and they go into the thing that I'm young I can't see my entire future they With their experience, they can. someone else like I feel like that is like a very big transition that me and my family are going through right now considering also I think only child I think that's where only child syndrome from the parents come from is that all and every attention is on you

SPEAKER_00: 26:26

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 26:28

and don't get me wrong I love attention but um not like to the point where like I think like now I'm also getting into a part where I want to make my own decisions like maybe not medically medically I feel like I rely my parents quite a bit more or at least I rely on someone I don't think like that's also very big of a thing where like I don't trust myself a lot with like a lot of things so I think I do rely on a lot of other people or like idolize a lot of other people to be something bigger than they are

SPEAKER_00: 26:56

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 26:57

and then like base off my decisions off of them right like what they say so boundaries I think like it's like having designations on like where I want to take my own decisions versus where I want them to take decisions for me yeah I'm still a child at heart like please don't leave me alone but yeah

SPEAKER_00: 27:16

but leave me alone in certain areas yeah

SPEAKER_01: 27:18

exactly so I think that is something that we are somewhat going through

SPEAKER_00: 27:23

yeah it gets very hard sometimes just changing a certain dynamic that's sort of been built in for so long and especially you know adding on another factor where you know it strengthens whatever original sort of dynamic there was and then you add in another factor like a medical condition and all of a sudden whatever protectiveness they've had has become much stronger and now you're like okay like how do we sort of you know unravel some of it and sort of change that dynamic a little bit but but I do want to go a little bit more into this into this heart condition you mentioned earlier that you had no choice but to face this reality and accept what was it that happened in that that caused this

SPEAKER_01: 28:06

so just like a area of like other things that like I might not want to delve deeper into right now but just like other things that like this condition block from happening so at that point it was like okay we have to like actually accept reality and accept that this is like an actual like thing just for those other medical procedures so it was like other things that like could have happened easily say if I was not a heart patient but they didn't so I like at that point it like I don't know hit me like a lot more that okay I have to go through this there has to be an acceptance that I'm different than the normal person and that my difference will lead me to have like different outcomes

SPEAKER_00: 28:57

right right

SPEAKER_01: 28:58

so I think like a lot of that like that point because up until that point I think a lot of it is also in America's healthcare as well is that like all the nurses here all the doctors here they're like high in optimism like it's like you have like a 10% chance of living they will maximize that 10% to look like it's 100 because that's also where like mentally that's also where you get hope from as well like if like a person goes into an operating room thinking that okay there's a 99% chance that I'm not going to survive this procedure their mental state is going to be that way and I've like from experience a lot of it works on like whatever your mental state is or like manifestation my mental state was very much like there was not full acceptance there's also like a underlying thing that like okay i'm gonna get and everybody around me all my doctors all the nurses everyone like literally even like the cashier like at the pharmacy was like you're gonna get through this like no worries

SPEAKER_00: 30:35

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 30:36

right so i think and frankly they don't have anything else to say either like which like nurse is gonna come up to you and be like sorry bud you're not gonna get through this yeah yeah like that's not what they do either so i think a lot of it like contributed to like more me not being able to like fully accept the seriousness of it until I get this other doctor saying like there's a problem here with like your medical history right then it's like okay maybe I'm actually not getting through this

SPEAKER_00: 31:03

and so when you first last year when you first sort of like you know went to get a checkup because of the heart the congested feeling that you were feeling in your chest you mentioned that you were sort of like in denial you know you were like everything is going to be fine but were you to going regularly for doctor like for checkups and um and all the way up until that point everything was looking okay a-okay like it was going to be okay

SPEAKER_01: 31:31

i want to say ebbs and flows yeah like there were many many many hospital stays like i think like for months and months like at a time that like there would be like so like what like the hospital has is like a therapeutic leave like procedure where like you're allowed to leave the hospital for like a few hours at a time and i like grasped those like immediately like any chance like i'd just be like i'd just be like telling my doctor that like okay can i leave now and like my doctor would be like you know you took one yesterday i'm like can i leave though please like can i please go leave live my normal life please

SPEAKER_00: 32:07

right

SPEAKER_01: 32:08

so um i think like there was that but then there was also like a lot of like hospital stay there were like months and months like i've spent many many nights at the hospital

SPEAKER_00: 32:16

right

SPEAKER_01: 32:17

so yeah all that was there but therapeutically like god bless whoever created those because those kept saying

SPEAKER_00: 32:26

right what were what were the um reasons that you were staying in the hospital during that time yeah during that whole time period what were the reasons that you

SPEAKER_01: 32:34

basically monitoring making sure that nothing gets worse because there were times admittedly there were times when things were bad like it'd be like the heart rate's way too high your heart isn't getting enough oxygen not enough blood like there'd be like blood transfusions Right. Right. Right. this one honestly like um that where like other patients and everyone like they're like i've gone home for like two nights and i come back to the hospital and my condition is like 50 percent worse now

SPEAKER_00: 33:31

right

SPEAKER_01: 33:32

so it's like god bless that like i think like these hospital stays and like all the care received has kept me alive honestly at this point

SPEAKER_00: 33:40

yeah that's crazy yeah um so you say that it's irregular heart heartbeat um can you walk me through if you were to do strenuous exercise? Or I mean, what are the conditions or what are the risks with strenuous exercise or feeling stressed or overwhelmed, like emotionally, what that that kind of can do to the heart rate? Or, you know, I don't know, you've got an exam coming up soon. And you know, that can cause, you know, irregular heartbeat for anyone. What do the doctors sort of say to

SPEAKER_01: 34:12

you? So I think like the thing with like a regular heartbeat, it's not it's not like, it's simply irregular heartbeat. It's also the fact that like, you have to like really like see is that like your heart is not able to pump your blood like there's like a lot of like common like rapid heartbeat is like when like You're all stressed and, like, you're all ready to go. And, like, your heart's just pumping blood at, like, a higher rate. But there's no problem in the heart pumping. It gets a little bit harder because, like, the heart's struggling as well. To pump, like, your regular blood, let alone much more, like, faster pump.

SPEAKER_00: 34:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 34:47

So, I think with strenuous exercise, like, I admittedly, like, I am not strong right now. Like, I think, like, I have, like, because this is also one more thing with this condition is that, like, your condition like April 2023 versus like April 2024 you know like despite symptoms getting better I feel like the aftermath of all of like the physical trauma that the body has gone through it's coming on me now like I feel like till that point my body like all the strength that I had in me I was like doing like everything that I could to like keep it at that level but like now it's like all that strength has like lessened over time and now like even though like I want to say symptoms are getting better it's like my overall like physical state is very very weak like I was like um with my mom getting groceries the other day and I tried to like hold like a milk like a gallon of milk I don't know like in America you get like an entirely gallon of milk I was trying to carry that thing I like could not carry like that with like one hand like for like two blocks and that was that was sad for me it was like okay you know like you aren't strong and that gallon of milk like it probably weighs like I don't know like five pounds maybe like it's not heavy by any means but it's still like my entire arm was like shaking at that point so I was like okay it's like one of those things where like you have to get up and get moving as much as you can but like yeah but it's like small steps like that but like grateful to have people to help me the thing with emotion though and anxiety it's that like I feel like this entire year has just made me much more anxiety written i guess like where like i will start to become anxious it's the smallest like news or whatever just because i've heard so much in the past year that anxiety wise like it's not good for you and anxiety is not good for anyone it's definitely not good for someone who's going through um medical problems yeah but it's also something that like you just have to get your mind through and like my mind like is at peace when i have like a plan b in mind like it when I'm at peace with my plan B, like no matter what is happening to plan A, I'll be fine. I'm like, okay, at least I'm a backup.

SPEAKER_00: 37:07

Yeah. And that's awesome that you sort of like know what are sort of the things that trigger you and what are the things that you can do to calm your sort of mental state.

SPEAKER_01: 37:15

Like I have been so hypervigilant about like any pain that like now I think I'm equally as hypervigilant about any emotion that I feel. Right. It's like, okay, I'm upset. Why am I upset? How could I not be upset what can I do to prevent myself from being upset like it's like a three-step plan though like my mind goes through immediately just because like it's like the same thing with pain like my doctor's always like you just have shoulder pain okay what time did the pain happen what caused this pain like what doesn't cause this pain and I have to report everything to him so now it's like a standard procedure in my mind like okay

SPEAKER_00: 37:50

almost kind of healthier healthy in a way because you know it's teaching you how to sort of like learn something about yourself and just observe a situation non-judgmentally or like remove the judgment from you know an emotion that you're experiencing and actually just kind of being like okay let's just analyze this and break this down so I can understand it better and I can you know work through it as opposed to you know feeling angry at yourself or feeling upset over something you know

SPEAKER_01: 38:16

yeah low key yes but also like my therapist at this point like she I started seeing a therapist I want to say November 2023 when like finally when this all hit me and I was like okay I need I need help so um

SPEAKER_00: 38:30

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 38:30

i see a thought therapist and like um actually like our most recent conversation she was like okay like have you felt like any like negative emotions in like the past week so like i literally like pull out my notes app and like i start reading to her and she's like you know what is this and i'm like you asked me i'm telling you like here you go and it's like every single thing like okay i woke up in the morning and i just felt sad like this is but like i woke up in the morning and i felt sad i felt sad because of this and this is what i thought about me being sad in my therapist was like just stop right there like this is like way too much like detail that like now you're in a way you're gonna like stop or like force yourself internally not to feel these emotions anymore because you know that they're like wrong or like you should like stop feeling this way like so in that way she was also like don't be so hyper vigilant let your emotions come in the way that they come because the minute that you stay hyper vigilant you're also going to persuade your body to feel happy emotions and ignore the sad emotions sort of put it into perspective that like okay maybe a little bit OCD with my emotion tracker but yeah like

SPEAKER_00: 39:41

that's interesting because I think like for you it started off like what triggered you to sort of really observe your emotions was a physical thing right it was a physical condition that made you think okay like I cannot maybe I shouldn't allow myself to feel too much negative emotion because of the impact it can have on my heart on my body Right. Physiologically for me. So I'm going to keep track of it. But yes, in doing so, it potentially it could. Yeah, I can see how it could end up becoming sort of like negative. I think rather so long as it's sort of like being done in a healthy way, like, OK, allowing yourself to feel it, but also processing it, sort of having that good balance, that middle ground where you can feel the emotions, you can express the emotions, you know, maybe in an emotional way through art, through music, you know. that kind of stuff, really feel that emotion while at the same time, you know, be like, okay, now I've felt the emotion. What can we do from this point? How do I get myself out of it? You know, I do know a lot of people, for example, you know, who may be undergoing something like depression or, you know, and maybe they sit into that, sit in that emotion a lot. They go into very, very dark places and they stay in it. And maybe the issue is that they haven't quite, when they're, when they're in that emotion, struggle to, find a way to relieve it as well to release it right and so so i think i mean at least the way i would say it is sort of like yeah maybe balancing having that sort of bit of a bit of both right yeah

SPEAKER_01: 41:12

and i think like at least like america's perspective now i can't speak for every single country on this world but i think america's perspective a lot of it is like problem solving like how can i get out of something and that's really the thing with like depression or any other mental health thing comes in as like a A lot of therapists, and I've gone through it quite myself too in these past few months, but I think a lot of it is like, how do I get out of this? Or how do I prevent what is causing this from happening? I think that's also the thing with America's healthcare in general. One thing about me is that I think through I talk. I'm a talker when I think, but I just made the connection that a lot of America's healthcare, let it be physical or mental, is very symptom relieving Like, it is not very much fixing the cause. It is either mentally, like, it's like, okay, like, I don't know, you have a toxic relationship, but, like, your mom, cut your mom out. Like, that is, like, primarily what, like, exactly, bandage. And it's, like, even, like, healthcare-wise, too. Like, I walked past, like, the hospital cafeteria today. What did I see? Doritos. Are Doritos good for you? No. Do Doritos cause a lot of problems for your body? Yeah, if you eat it quite a bit. But no, there's still Doritos in the hospital, and then you have the same hospital relieving the symptoms that you get from eating Doritos.

SPEAKER_00: 42:33

Hmm. Pinking is another one of those, right? Exactly!

SPEAKER_01: 42:36

Like, I have been prescribed every single painkiller under, like, this planet, probably, for, like, my pain. Do I need that much? No. Can I do it with a simple ibuprofen? Yes. But, like, that's just business. So I feel like this is also very much of a topic that I'm very passionate about, just to call out America. Like, as much as I'm very grateful for them, it's also, like, to, like, call Yeah, and

SPEAKER_00: 43:01

I think, you know, it also fits in with the current trend of like, you know, the generation, the younger generation, which is, you know, the instant gratification, right? I'm feeling pain right now, because I've got the stomach, I've got a headache. And so I'm going to take a painkiller rather than ride it, ride it out, because I need instantly to get rid of that pain. In the same way it works with, you know, jobs, I'm going to go and apply for a job that's going to straight up pay me like 50k, rather than, you know, you know you know rise up to the top you know take my time to build my way up to the top you know

SPEAKER_01: 43:34

exactly

SPEAKER_00: 43:35

right social media all of it all of it it's just it's like what can I do to give me the quickest result that's where

SPEAKER_01: 43:42

anxiety comes in too it's like I feel like for me too now that like you say it it's like okay I get like a small problem like I don't know like my GPA like it's not a perfect like 4.0 like okay I'm not gonna get an A in a class I'm right now I'm sitting in stress right now because I don't not gonna get an A instead of like thinking out long term that okay like is my A like going to be that big of a deal to me in the near future it may be it may not be but it's also like the thing it's like life doesn't go out the way that you want it to and I feel like that's where that instant gratification comes that you want life to go the way that you want it to go

SPEAKER_00: 44:16

and then it

SPEAKER_01: 44:17

can't now that you're

SPEAKER_00: 44:18

struggling can you talk to me about you know you mentioned earlier sort of confronting death and I want you to tell me a little bit about the effect that it's had on your views of life in general? Because this kind of ties in with what you just said about realizing, does that A really matter in the long term of things, right? So yeah, just talk to me about how that shifted your perspective.

SPEAKER_01: 44:40

Yeah, so that I think like, I was seven years old when I overheard my parents like speaking with my doctor and it was with the hypoglycemia. It was not with the cardiac, but that's when the first part why I heard my parents asking, okay, what can the long term complications of this be? And my doctor was like, it can be an early death. And at that point, I didn't know. I was freaked out about that. At that point, I was like, okay, like seven. At that point, I also remember this because this was like, not to like, not to offend anyone again. But I don't know if you remember 12, like 2012, December, something 2012. I want to say December 22nd. Okay. It was like when like the Mayan calendar was ending. Everyone was like, okay, it's gonna be the end of the world.

SPEAKER_00: 45:25

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 45:28

so basically i was turning 10 that year 2012 was my 10th birth and and i'm born on christmas so i three days before my birthday i had the worst breakdown that i am not going to see age 10 right but that was my mindset that was that death i was freaked out about it was that i did not want to die like i had i wanted to like my mind at that point would be like i remember at eight seven like I think I was very much into American Girl which I'm not sure if you're familiar with but it's like a doll brand in the States and it's very like it's very popular over here with the young girls but a girl like a American Girl is releasing a doll like in like a few months and when I heard that conversation my first thought was like I'm not gonna see that doll I need to see that doll so I think just like going back like it's funny but like right like thinking about at that time I think I was just scared of all the things that wasn't going to be able to do in life

SPEAKER_00: 46:32

right

SPEAKER_01: 46:32

and slowly I feel like after like the entire Mayan calendar ended but like my I still celebrate my 10th birthday um I think at that point and like a few months after I think I started making peace with the fact that okay this isn't that serious like I haven't died it's been like three or four years at this point like I haven't died like I think I can keep going yeah and at that point like nobody even mentioned that so it was a little bit like okay like i will like be fine and then years ago so i want to say like 20 i started getting a lot more like low blood sugar like um drops i think a little bit i think it was just a puberty and everything um me just like growing up and everything so i think at that point i finally asked my doctor and i was like okay what's the worst that can happen with this and he was like the worst that can happen with this is death that's the worst that can happen in any condition now the thing is and then and then he saw me like anxious so he was like the thing is over here that that is very interesting but it's always something not to be feared about because whenever you feared that you are always going to be troubled by it more and you pushing it away is just going to build negative emotion into you so in a way let it come to you when it comes to you because frankly no one knows when it's going to come like we've had miracle survivors and we've had people who we thought were going to survive and they haven't survived, unfortunately. But, like, in anyone's last moments, being fearful, being, like, in, like, a bad state is always worse than someone leaving happily. Like, you want to, like, experience your last moments anywhere with, like, a happiness. Like, it's always, like, he always, he brought the analogy of, like, having a good meal. Like, you have, like, dessert in front of you. A lot of humans have a tendency of saving the best bite for last.

UNKNOWN: 48:28

Like,

SPEAKER_01: 48:28

you always almost save like the best bite for last and that's sort of like the way that he framed it was like always save the best for last like don't spend all your time just like being so caught up with like the fact that okay my life's gonna end to the fact that you don't live your life

SPEAKER_00: 48:46

yeah and that's a really good way to put it

SPEAKER_01: 48:49

i don't know what happened in me at that point but after like a few days after hearing that i think like i just like magically made peace that like is like temporary and that definitely carried forward during these past few months versus like I was just grateful to see every single day like every single day new adventure I don't know when this adventure is gonna end it could end like in a few hours it could end next week it could end like in 50 years like we don't know yeah but I think like the biggest part was that I also got to appreciate the small things in life like I don't know pretty sky or whatever like I will genuinely take like a few more minutes like a appreciate that because there's so many people on this planet who don't even get to see like a pretty sky so it's like stuff like that it's like you kind of take your eyes off of the big picture of life and start like zooming into the small things in

SPEAKER_00: 49:39

life

SPEAKER_01: 49:40

and I think that's like the biggest part that accepting death has been for me like right now I want to say that like I'm okay I can't say for certain but if like somebody puts me in an operating room and it's like we're gonna try our best but like there's like a 99.99999% chance that you're gonna die I don't think I will be as fearful as I would have been a few years ago

SPEAKER_00: 50:03

yeah is this something that you try to preach to your parents too

SPEAKER_01: 50:07

no because my parents are not ready to hear that like I think it's a lot of like an introspective thing which like you honestly can't even like you're probably the first person that I think you talked about this with like a really big like like I don't know like all through but like even with like friends or like extended family or anyone like they all care about you right so like nobody wants you And we, I think as a society, we stigma, stigma is like that so much that like, it's kind of like when it was like, nobody wants to accidentally manifest it.

SPEAKER_00: 50:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 50:37

So everyone avoids talking about it or everyone's like, okay, just like, shut up. Like, don't talk about that. And that's kind of where it leads to be much more introspective where it's like, okay, like I, at least like, at least I'm fine. Like, or at least like I've reached that state because like, I'm at least happy about that, that I've at least reached that state. And then convincing others, I don't think that's in my power. I don't think I'll be able to ever convince my parents, or I don't think my parents will ever reach that state where they will be okay with me not being in their life permanently. I don't think that is something that they will ever be able to grasp. And they've had to face that multiple times in the past few months, multiple out of multiple times, because every procedure has the standard risk of death. stuff like this like it's a little bit higher like and that's where like you see all the anxiety coming in too is that like that's where all the protectiveness all the anxiety every emotion from them that's where that kicks in

SPEAKER_00: 51:36

right

SPEAKER_01: 51:36

but i think any parent at this point would just be like i'll go but like save my child

SPEAKER_00: 51:41

yeah yeah it's almost like um nobody on the outside can really really understand what that person what death really means until they are you know confronting it themselves exactly I really, really do want to ask you that pressing question that I was going to ask you earlier. So when people try to appease you or try to reason with you as to what's happening in your life, and they use religion, they use karma as that reason, and they tell you like, oh, yeah, this is what your soul's journey is supposed to go through. How do you feel personally about that?

SPEAKER_01: 52:17

So I've been talking about this with the chaplain here. So the hospital, they have a chaplain who I'm best buddies with. with so this chaplain I actually like told him like do you believe in karma and then like he was like personally I don't he's um Christian so he like he believes in like Jesus like dying for all of our sins like Jesus will make us better so he's always like I always pray to God for every single person that God will make them better

SPEAKER_00: 52:44

or

SPEAKER_01: 52:45

that like um so then I asked him I'm like okay then why am I going through this as per you and he was like I think God is just trying to make you stronger. So that to me, I love this person. Honestly, I confide in him a lot. But I think just these two words, one that God is making you and the other thing is that strong. To me, I detest the word strong when anyone says that you're so strong. I'd be strong if I walked into a hospital If I was like, make my heart so bad and then let me go through. I feel like bad is strong, but you can't be strong for a situation that you were circumstantially put into. I feel like strong is just not the right word for it. To me, it's like I didn't choose to be strong. I have to be strong. If I'm not going through this, then I'm creating a worse life for myself right now. I'm doing this so that I can have a good quality of life.

SPEAKER_00: 53:54

right

SPEAKER_01: 53:55

so like the entire thing that like god is making you like that for me and that's something that i've been actually thinking a lot about is that like do we just use god as a pinpoint to blame our problems on i've actually had arguments about this with my parents where i've just been like why do you remember god or why do all of us remember god in worse times more than good times say you get a job promotion yes you'll say thank you god will you ever ask god god why did you give me this promotion when your over there in the chapel, you're like, God, why did he give me this problem? What did I do? I'm like, what did he do to get that promotion? I think that God is a gift-giving creature that sits above us in the clouds. I think that notion, again, not to offend anyone's religion over here, but I just think that's a justification method, honestly. The way that we see God is that it's just a spiritual soul who has reached a period of salvation, and Right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 55:54

undo whatever it is that I may have caused to other people in this life. But yet we see children three years old, two years old, die of starvation. And that kid has never had a chance to redeem themselves. So they've just lived a total of three years and all of a sudden they've done their comic dues. I mean, there are a lot of things that can be kind of like, okay, how does that work? Why does it work that way? And does it make it okay, right, fair? But the most important thing is you know what resonates with you I guess and so this leads me to my next question which is in this process of like asking the why me why is this happening to me have you tried to sort of explore other beliefs philosophies religions to to explain this in a way that maybe resonates with you

SPEAKER_01: 56:44

like I mean I asked like a Christian like chapelist like why is this happening and like his theory was like I think God is just trying to like teach you a lesson slash like trying to like make you strong trying to maybe make you more grateful for life. Yes, I am grateful for life. I'm very grateful. I don't want to say strong. I don't consider myself strong right now. I feel like I'm just a person trying to, I don't know, get through it. But I haven't seen a lot of other philosophies, even Hinduism, very close cousin to Jainism. Hinduism is also very much karmic belief. It is also very much deeply rooted into karma. So very similar reasoning comes out from there. It's like the thing with children's starvation, too. I was at a pediatric hospital, and now I've switched care to an adult hospital. But in a pediatric hospital, you see children in the pediatric hospice. Hospice means six months or less to live. And you look at these kids, and you see little babies. And you're like, babies who can't even talk are going through this? Why? Yeah. it makes

SPEAKER_00: 57:54

it very hard to wrap your head around

SPEAKER_01: 57:57

yeah and you can't justify any theory at that point so in times like those I think there's just nothing else to justify this than to just be like maybe everyone just has their own fate or everyone just has their own set of problems that they have to go through I was actually like I actually stumbled upon like a quote page or whatever and I forget what the actual quote was but the caption beneath it was a lot really Like, there, like, are, like, five lessons or something that, like, you need to learn, like, on your time here, which has been predetermined by, like, your past deeds. So, I guess it relates to, like, the karmic theory in a way. But, like, those five lessons, like, they will come back to you again and again in different situations until you learn that, like, lesson almost. Yeah. Where, like, I don't know, maybe, like, gratefulness of life. Like, you'll, like, go through, like, a medical condition and then you might just be on a cliff maybe risking your life or something like but like you'll like get it again and again until you are 100 like solidly grateful for life maybe maybe you've learned your lesson in all types of aspects that there's no aspect for you to question your lesson in almost

SPEAKER_00: 59:10

i love that i feel like that in itself is already like quite a good quite a good message for listeners to sort of take away it's it's reassuring in a sense but it also allows people to you know reflect back on certain cycles and that they've maybe found themselves in it can be like you know a cycle of toxic relationships what is it why do I keep finding myself back in these kind of same kind of relationships or like you know a cycle of you know workplace bullying or you know whatever it is and it may come again in different forms but you know there's that common thread between all of them it might actually be a really good episode for a lot of people to sort of go back and reflect on that okay what what is this common thread here what is it that I keep putting out there in the universe that keeps building bouncing back to me and what do i need to start turning around um

SPEAKER_01: 59:58

i think a lot with that turning around sorry but like i think a lot of that turning around is that like humans like these days i feel like it ties into the instant gratification that we were talking about but that like we're so quick to blame now like toxic relationships as you said like okay someone gaslit me someone did this to me someone did that to me and like maybe you'll reflect on yourself too like okay maybe i was toxic maybe i was doing this like whatever but like you just label yourself and then like you leave it at that or like you try to fix it but then it's also like don't just like attach yourself to the situation or don't just like label yourself and then like move on there has to be a thing of like okay toxic whatever like let's just take workplace okay your boss is being hard on you or whatever my boss is toxic fine as an employee I might also be toxic but it's also like how can I take that toxicity and how can I at least salvage our relationship rather than just like walking away or how can we make each other better like i feel like we're very quick to point like my mom always says like whenever you point one finger at someone there are three fingers pointing back at you like make like the entire hand properly don't start pointing fingers at each other

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:11

like yeah

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:12

that's always the worst way to blame anyone

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:14

yeah no i really like that exactly

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:16

work on yourself you're like everyone's a work in progress no one's perfect but like definitely don't just take a label and like stick it on your Right. Because you're more than just a label. So don't definitely don't do that. And also don't stay in a toxic relationship as well. You

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:30

know, thank you so much for for this amazing conversation today. And, you know, for sharing such wonderful insight. Thank

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:37

you. It was really fun talking with you, especially about the karma. I did not expect this to be very religion based. I love it. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:51

If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help support the show, please follow and subscribe. You can rate and review your feedback on any of our platforms listed in the description. I'd like to recognize our guests who are vulnerable and open to share their life experiences with us. Thank you for showing us we're human. Also, a thank you to our team who worked so hard behind the scenes to make it happen.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:12

The

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:15

show would be nothing without you. I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening to Multispectrum.