EP 72 - Paul Donovan (Jersey Wahoos)

In this week’s episode of The Your Sports Resource Podcast, join us as we dive into the world of coaching and leadership with Paul Donovan, head coach and CEO of the Jersey Wahoos. Discover how Donovan seamlessly balances the dual roles, emphasizes the importance of teamwork and delegation, and shares insights into staff development and mentorship. Tune in for a fascinating discussion on trust, communication, and the vital relationship between the board and staff. 

Don't miss out on this insightful conversation with a true leader in the world of sports!

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

• Balancing the roles of CEO and head coach requires having good people around you and delegating responsibilities.
• Investing in staff development and mentorship adds value to the organization and creates a positive experience for coaches and swimmers.
• Coaches should have access to resources and opportunities for professional growth, such as online certifications and attending clinics.
• Building trust and open communication within the coaching staff is essential for a successful organization. A strong working relationship between the board and staff is crucial for the success of an organization.
• Open, honest, and respectful communication is key to building and maintaining this relationship.
• Having an expertise-led board can bring valuable skills and perspectives to the organization.
• Managing the emotional weight of coaching can be challenging, and taking time for self-care is important.
• Acknowledging and appreciating volunteers is essential for their engagement and the overall success of the organization.

ABOUT THE GUEST:

Since 2018 Paul has been at the Jersey Wahoos leading the organization as the Head Coach & CEO. Wahoos is a community based non profit with over 50 years of experience teaching people how to swim and operating a leading competitive swim program. The Team has supported swimmers representing Team USA at the World Championships & Junior Pan Pacs. Paual has worked with swimmers who have made the National Junior Team over the past 3 years and who have broken NAG records.  

Prior to this Paul was the Head Coach of one of Swim Ireland’s National Performance Centres, based out of the National Aquatic Centre in Dublin for over 7 years. This role was focused on coaching a group of athletes with the aim of representing Ireland at the international level and supporting National programs at international meets, camps and local developmental pathways.

CONNECT WITH THE GUEST:
Email: paul.donovan@jerseywahoos.org
Twitter: https://twitter.com/coachpdonovan


CONNECT WITH ME:
Linkedin: /renata-porter
Instagram: @yoursportsresource
Twitter: @yoursportsres

If you have a suggestion or topics you want me to discuss, write me at info@yoursportsresource.com. Don’t forget to check out our website www.yoursportsresource.com 

Transcript

00:00:00 - Introduction 

This is the Your Sports Resource podcast where each week you'll learn actionable strategies that you can implement so the operations of your club support your coaching staff and the direction of your organization. We are committed to excellence in youth sports leadership. Let's get started.  

00:00:26 - Renata 

Hello and welcome to the Your Sports Resource podcast. My name is Renata Porter and today we have a real special guest. We have Paul Donovan from the Jersey Wahoos joining us. Since 2018, Paul has been with the Jersey Wahoos, leading the organization as the head coach and CEO. Wahoos is a community-based nonprofit with 50 years of experience teaching people how to swim and operating a leading competitive swim program. The team has supported swimmers representing Team USA at the world championships and Junior Pan Pacs. 

00:01:03 

Paul has worked with swimmers who have made the national junior team over the last 3 years who have broken NAG records. Now, prior to this, Paul was the head coach of one of Swim Ireland's National Performance Centers. Based out of the National Aquatic Center in Dublin for over 7 years, this role was focused on coaching a group of athletes with the aim of representing Ireland at the international level and supporting national programs at international meets, camps, and local development pathways. All right, welcome, Paul. Thank you for joining us. 

00:01:41 - Paul 

Thanks so much for having me. Look forward to talking. 

 00:01:44 - Renata 

Great. Well, why don't we just start off with your journey to Jersey Wahoos and really just talk to us about your time there and maybe a little bit about that combined role, why you took that combined role of CEO/Head coach? 

00:02:00 - Paul 

Well, yeah, I've been at the Wahoos now for six years. We moved over from Ireland in the summer of 2018, and really I was looking for professional opportunities in the US. I finished up my time with my previous role with Swim Ireland probably around 18 months before that in early 2017. And just through exploring different opportunities and looking for a job, like all out-of-work people have to do.  

00:02:31 

The opportunity at Wahoo came up online and I spoke to some people about it that I knew and were all very positive about the opportunity. And so I applied and ended up coming over and interviewing, and I was lucky enough to get the position and myself and Cleena, my wife, and our then four-month-old son moved over in the summer of 2018. And yeah, we've been here ever since. 

00:02:56 - Renata 

Oh, so just right before the pandemic hit. 

Paul (03:35.594) 

We were here, we probably 18 months before the pandemic hit. I had a whole season of 2018, 2019 of just normality and then around halfway through that second season, the pandemic hit then. So we had enough time to get our feet in the ground as well and get things done. 

Renata (00:03:15) 

Oh, that's good. Good, good. Happy to hear that. So when you signed on or when you first started with the Wahoos, was that a combined role at that time that you came in as CEO/Head Coach? 

Paul Donovan (00:03:26) 

No, when I first came in, I said the program itself is just after celebrating its 50th anniversary. So, you know, it's been in the local community for a long time. It's really, really well-established. But they were going through a period of huge change. They were going through a change of leadership for the first time in over 30 years. And they had made some changes before my role became available.  

00:03:52 

So when I first came in that first year, I was the director of competitive swimming and we had a business development manager who stayed in position for the first year. And really he oversaw a guy named Ed Abel, I was very grateful to have in place beside me that first year because we went through a massive facility upgrade in that first 12 to 15 months, which he led and did all the heavy lifting on.  

00:04:19 

And once that project was finished up, as was always the plan, he moved on to, to get back out into the real world and away from swimming. And then around that time, then we combined the roles into the CEO and head coach then. So probably maybe after the first 12 or 15 months, it changed. 

Renata (00:04:37) 

Okay, so just to go back to your original role, so was that more an operational role at that time? Because you know, sometimes the naming conventions aren't really what you would think they would be. So were you actually coaching or was it fully operational? 

Paul (00:04:54) 

No, no, it's absolutely coaching still and coaching. And I've been coaching the national team here since I arrived. And that's very much the key part of the job of any of the jobs I've done here. The most important thing we do is the work we do with the kids. So yeah, so no, that side of it hasn't changed at all. I would think the thing that changed more was that first year was very much involved in just the swimming side of things, and the management of the coaches and the curriculum and that side of things and managing specific parts of the business.  

00:05:28 

Whereas now I'm responsible. We own our own facility and we're very lucky to own our own facility. We're very proud to own our own facility. So now, obviously, my role encompasses making sure that the facility's health is looked after and keeps moving in the right direction as well. So that's probably the biggest change to the two roles as a responsibility for the facility as well as just it people management and curriculum and coaching side of things. 

Renata (00:05:54) 

Do you have a facilities manager or is that you? 

 Paul (00:05:59) 

No, we do not. It's not me, it would be very unfair to the rest of the staff here to say it's me. We've gone through a couple of different ways of doing it. We had a full-time. So all our coaches who work at Wahoo's, 50% of our responsibility is on-deck coaching, and 50% of our time is spent off-deck in various different other parts of the operation of the business. 

00:06:25 

So we have had a coach that was responsible for the facility. And we do have a general manager who the facility falls under as well. And we do try to outsource a lot of what we do around the facility stuff. So in terms of our pool director and stuff like that, they're all outside businesses that we bring in to help run what we do here. 

Renata (00:06:46) 

Awesome. So what do you think? A lot of clubs have been moving towards the CEO/head coach model and listen I just want to be fair in saying that sometimes I feel like clubs do coaches a disservice by doing this by trying to promote their current head coach into that role because they really are diverse skill sets, right?  

00:07:11 

And so what do you think is important or what is key in being able to balance both sides of wet and dry and making sure, I mean part of what you've already said as far as spreading that workload out is great, right? But what do you think are really key for anybody who is considering or for your experience, like what is key for you to be able to balance that operational and wet side of the business to be able to be effective on both sides of the house? 

Paul (00:07:43) 

For sure. It's hard. There's no doubt about it. I think you got to have good people around you. And I think part of any program that was looking at making that transition is you got to have a look at the skill set of the other people in the organization as well. And are they going to be able to cover some of the bases? Because the other side, I think, of being in the CEO role is that, you know, part of it is protect my coaching. That's the most important thing that I do as a coach. 

00:08:11 

And I've got to be able to protect that schedule and that commitment of time on and off the deck. You know, because coaching isn't just the 20 hours a week on the side of the pool. It's, I’m prepping and planning for practice. It's, I’m communicating with the kids, communicating with their parents, communicating with the other stakeholders that are involved in it. So you have to be able to protect that. I mean, the other side of the CEO role is a management one.  

00:08:34 

And so you got to have that people would experience in management, either ready to step up into it, or people around that person that do have experience in management, maybe at a board level, or other people on the staff that can help that person grow into that role. And then the last part of it is the leadership part. I would say it's probably after coaching, my next most important thing that I do is that I lead the organization, I set the tone and the tempo of our culture and our values. and of our communications, all those things come across in our communications. So in my leadership role as the CEO, I've got to give myself ample time to be able to communicate outwardly with our staff, with our swimmers, with their parents and with our other stakeholders as well.  

00:09:21 

So I think when people are looking to make that transition, you got to look at those three parts of what you're going to do and you've got to make sure that if there's a weakness, which there's always going to be and the person you're going to put in the main chair that you have good people around them in those other areas, whether it be on your staff or maybe at your board level as well, to help them grow. I think the biggest mistake people make is they go into that role and they think they're gonna be to be all and end all, or an organization thinks that person is gonna be to be all and end all. I have all the answers. 

Renata (00:09:51) 

And they don't have to support whatsoever, or I don't need support whatsoever, right? 

Paul (00:09:56) 

Yeah. So you're going to do this job and you're responsible and accountable for everything. That's not always feasible and maybe not always sustainable. So I think it comes back just to identifying what parts of the role you're going to be accountable for and responsible for and make sure that the other parts of it that you have really, really good people around you supporting you. 

Renata (00:10:18) 

Yeah, I mean, Paul, I love that you said all that because that's something that that's messaging that we send all the time to our boards and to even like our college coaches. To me, I liken it to the college coaches because administratively, they don't typically get a whole lot of help, right? So they have to look for coaches that can take on big chunks of that administrative piece. So I love that you said you know, take the time and find the people with the right skill sets.  

00:10:49 

Not everybody is built out with all the skill sets that are needed. And knowing your strengths and knowing your gaps is not, it's not a weakness. It's understanding where there could be someone else who could step in and probably do this piece of this job a little bit better or more efficiently or be more productive, whatever the descriptor is, you know, I think that's the right attitude in that. 

00:11:16 

Be patient, find the right people that can support the person who's leading the charge of going forward and making sure that you've got a well-rounded team and not just rushing into, oh, this guy's good, or this girl's good. This is, you know, we can do this. They've got great coaching experience, which is, yes, you want that, but there's other things that you want as well. And should be looking for. I love that you, you brought that up. 

Paul (00:11:39) 

And I think you gotta make sure if you're gonna transition someone into that role, that they're ready for it, that they understand what's involved in it, and that you're ready to go in and support them in it as well. Because I do think the days of one-man bands and one person with all the answers are, not saying they're just less and less common in today's working space, and probably for good reason. 

Renata (00:12:09) 

Yeah, I love it. So another area that we talk about quite a bit and that I try to get head coaches to focus on is developing their staff. Because old school mentality is I'm just gonna focus on my top group, my senior group, because that's typically still where head coaches sit, even though they're starting to migrate to being the head age group coach. Because that is, in my mind, that is the most pivotal role in the business, bar none, is your head age group coach for the future of the organization, right, for the pipeline.  

00:12:40 

But shoot, I forgot where I was going. One of the things that we try to get the head coaches on is investing in their staff and paying attention to their staff and upskilling their staff. And the reason for that is, I always say it really, at the base level, the simplest level, I feel like if you're working on your coaches across the board all the way down from. I'm gonna say the word developmental, but I mean the early age groupers, not what they're calling rec programs now as developmental, but all the way down from the littles, all the way up to the olders.  

00:13:15 

If you work on those coaches, well that elevates your club across the board instead of trying to focus on just one group at a time or just the athletes. So what are some of the things that you are doing or working on to develop your staff and how do you go about that? Is that a combination of what they say they want and need or what you're noticing that they want and need? And then how do you incorporate that into every month or throughout the year? 

Paul (00:13:43) 

I think it's great. I think, look, one of the goals we have at Wahoos is that, for the swimmers, is we want it to be a most positive experience in our young lives. And I always say to the staff, I have the same goal for them as a staff. I want their time spent here to be one of the most positive things that they're going to do in the swimming world. And that's really important to us as an organization. 

00:14:08 

And I think we're all molded by our own experiences. I certainly did not have a positive experience when I felt there was a lot of micromanagement and a lot of over analysis of the day-to-day interactions of what goes on. So I think what we try to do here is we try to provide mentorship on a day-to-day basis, on a week-to-week basis. And that mentorship comes from me. That's part of my job as the head coach is, I coach our national group.  

00:14:42 

I also coach our coaches. And that doesn't mean that I'm telling them that, oh, tomorrow morning's practice, you're doing this. And I hand them a piece of paper. And coaching the coaches means that, yes, we have an overarching plan that we try to work towards, but that I also entrust them with the freedom to create their own content day to day. And periodically, whether it be week to week or at least once every three weeks, we try to sit down and have a conversation around content and what's going on and make some suggestions, make some changes if required.  

00:15:17 

So I think that mentorship side of thing is really important and that's part of my job. And I think then it becomes the management side of staff development as well, which is what has to be a little bit more formal. So we have a couple of initiatives. I'm on the board of directors of the American Swim Coach Association. And I believe very passionately in that organization and what it can do for coaches based on what it did for me as a young coach.  

00:15:47 

So all our coaches, we signed them up and paid professional dues to both United States Swimming and to the American Swim Coach Association. So they have access to those resources online. And it also then allows us to structure some professional development and through the content that those organizations have online. And so that would be one part of it that all our staff members get full-time and part-time. And the full-time guys might have to do it and the part-time guys might get to do it. 

00:16:17 

And yeah, that's just the nature of, you can't make people do who are just able to commit, you know, just a smaller amount of their time make the same amount of time as our full-time staffers do. But we give them the same opportunities and we pay all their dues. The other side of what we do is we put aside, in addition to their base salary every year, we put aside 5% of it in addition to their base salary, that they can invest back in themselves. 

Renata (00:16:49) 

Okay, so you leave it up to them what they want to do. 

Paul (00:16:53) 

It's gotta be in agreement with us. 

Renata (00:16:55) 

Well, yeah, I was gonna say that. I'm sorry. Yeah. But I mean, it's their initiation of this is something I want to learn. And they talk to you and you work it out. Awesome. Yeah. 

Paul (00:17:04) 

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, because I think it's got to be something my take on it is that, you know, that we have eight full-time staff and we have around 25 to 30 part-time staff. I don't imagine any more than a couple of those people will stay here the rest of their lives. And because they're going to want to want to grow their own life and their own experience as well. And so I think they need to have some input into that professional development based on where they see themselves going in their career over the next, whether it be three to five years.  

00:17:35 

And then if they have a hard time coming up with something, I'm more than happy to jump in and give some ideas on what they can do with it. And, but like examples of like, we would use some of that money. They might go to a clinic. And we had an ASCA-run clinic on locally up here at State College at Penn State last year that a couple of our part-time staff went up to and used that resource towards. I was not, so I did not know that. So they've done that.  

00:18:07 

We've put coaches through online certification and we'd certainly be happy for them to use that money to invest in, you know, further higher education as well. But it's something that we want them to have and we want them to have a say in what they're going to do. And then obviously, that's a conversation with me around whether it's a good fit or not. But generally, if you have someone coming to you wanting to commit time to learning, it's something they've thought about and something that they wanna do.  

00:18:36 

So we always try to encourage them to do that. And then the last thing we try to do is part of it, we try to get them out of here once a year and get onto another pool deck or maybe to one of the camps or clinics with United States Swimming. Like I haven't gone, we have kids go to national select camp and national diversity select camp and there are fantastic coach tracks that USA Swimming run at those things.  

00:19:03 

And that's why I try to send the staff up to that rather than me. And so just as much as we can, getting them outside of Wahoos and outside of South Jersey is great for our program because they're going to see the bigger, badder world and bring it back to the table and help make us better for it. 

Renata (00:19:21) 

Absolutely. And like that kind of supports your point of like, even if they're not going to be sticking around, I know a lot of organizations don't really want to invest in people that they feel like may not stay. But I mean, you know, there was that quote that was going around LinkedIn or socials for a while. It's like, yeah, but what happens if we don't train them? Right.  

00:19:42 

So if they stick around for three years and you send them off for training, well, the club or the organization, gets to benefit for those three years from what they've learned, instead of having a coach that's stagnant and is not building up their toolset, you know, in order to be, I mean, and it doesn't even have to be technical. I know there's a lot of technical on USA Swimming and ASCA, but whatever they learn and they go and learn, I think it all feeds back to the organization, and that's a great, great way. 

Paul (00:20:12) 

But I think if you have good relationships with your staff, they keep adding value even after they leave. My former associate head coach since he left is one of the people I have on speed diet. We were still in a group text chat with him and he's still teaching me stuff about the sport. And I'd hope to think that some of that is of some of the stuff that he learned while he was with us is of value to him as he grows and moves forward.  

00:20:36 

So I think that's really important. The other side of it is that none of these guys have a contract for life. So I have no expectation over them staying here more than a year. There's certain professional obligations, but I think as sometimes in sport and sometimes in swimming, we over-emotionalize, if that's a word, people's commitments to certain organizations. At the end of the day, it's a professional job for a lot of people. It's a vocation for other people. 

00:21:07 

But someone told me recently, it's not a vocation for everybody and that's OK. And if they're doing their job well and to a high level, that's good enough. And so we have to make sure we invest in them because I'm not giving them a job for the next 10 years. I've made no commitment to them. So it's OK for me still invest in them. I think we'll get it back in the long term as well. 

Renata (00:21:31) 

Yeah and then and you know most staff that want to stick around they'll only they're only going to stick around if you value them, if they feel valued and they feel like they're providing value right. If they feel like they're going nowhere and that you don't care about them or the board or whoever the parents don't care about them. Well, chances are they're gonna be moving on, right? 

00:21:51 

So I think, it's kind of one of those sticking points I get into with boards. They feel like coaches only work certain amount of hours and they don't take into consideration like all the things you listed off on, right? And there's so much more. And then they have those low salaries and then they wonder why, and there's no benefits, there's no training, there's no mentorship like you're doing. And then they wonder why they can't keep coaches. Your environment's not set up to keep coaches, right? 

Paul (00:22:21) 

Coaching is so difficult. It's so amazing. I never talk about it negatively. You know, it's a lifestyle choice. It's a fantastic lifestyle choice to make. It gives so much back out of the relationships you build with kids, with athletes, with other coaches. And that's the sense of community and knowledge that you get out of coaching is amazing. By the same token, it's brutal. 

00:22:46 

It's physically brutal, like the schedule, like we are, we're real lucky we own our own facility, but it's a six-lane, 25-yard pool. So we run programming from 3:15 till 9:30 at night. And we run programming all day Saturday and all day Sunday. And someone has to coach that. Someone has to be there on a Sunday from 6:30 in the morning, we start until we finish at 5:00 pm in the afternoon. There are coaches that are there doing that. And yes, they get paid. 

Renata (00:23:15) 

Yeah, but they're also not spending time with their family and spending it with other families and you can't overlook that aspect even if this is you've decided this is your profession and that's part of the job. It's still important for that to be recognized you know. Absolutely. 

Paul (00:23:33) 

Yeah, 100%. So it's an amazing profession, but it is really difficult. And I think if we can add value in that professional development sphere to our coaches and helps them feel valued and helps them give more value back, it's a win-win all around and I think we should continue to do. 

Renata (00:23:51) 

Yeah, absolutely. One last thing I want to pick away at what you said and that's your mentorship approach and I think that a lot of clubs, I didn't realize that this was a theme, but a lot of these clubs when they have their staff meetings, none of them are about internal training or upskilling. It's all like administrative tasks list-type meetings. 

00:24:17 

And so I really, I love it the way that you said it's mentorship, but it's internal mentorship because I think head coaches miss out in the fact that they, they've built up a knowledge that they could share. Right. And it doesn't mean that you're dictating that somebody behaves in a certain way, but you can have conversations just about how to handle a difficult conversation with a parent in a team meeting.  

00:24:43 

And that would like, that would help probably quite a few people that are in there, especially the up-and-coming coaches who struggle in that area. So I really, I wanna give you props for doing the internal mentoring and training as well, because I think head coaches have so much that they can offer, that if they just find time to allocate a little bit of knowledge, as they move through the year, I think again, that supplements the high-level skills, knowledge that you'll get from your buying into ASCA, USA swimming and such. 

Paul (00:25:16) 

And I think a lot of that can be done informally. And I would think there are probably a lot of coaches that are doing it without knowing that they're doing it. That there'll be my experience of it. And when we do our staff meetings, they are, when we have eight people sitting around a table, it is much more formal and much more structured moving through points.  

00:25:34 

But we try to find a time once every three weeks to sit down one-on-one with the coaching staff. And I think that's where the benefit of that type of conversation can be had much, much quicker and much easier. And I think people one-on-one are a little bit more vulnerable or willing to be vulnerable as well, especially over time if they build up trust that they know it's not gonna be held back against them or anything. 

Renata (00:25:57) 

Yeah, that's it Paul right there. You've built up that trust that they can feel like they can be more open and honest and vulnerable, right? I think that's great. Do you mind if we switch over to your board?  

Paul (00:26:09) 

No, for sure. 

Renata (00:26:11) 

Okay. So what do you feel is a vital necessity to assure that both the coaching staff? I'm going to say staff because it's more than coaches, right? That your staff and your board are working in tandem and working well to advance the vision and the mission of the organization so it can move forward. 

Paul (00:26:36) 

It's a good one. And I don't know if this is right, but what we've done here at Wahoos over the past number of years is we've really separated the two out and then put me in the middle as the conduit between the two. So I said, when it comes to the board, one of the boards main, I would say their biggest responsibility is to manage me because I don't own this place.  

00:27:02 

And someone has to keep me in check, make sure that the decisions that I make are in the best interest of the organisation. And that's real important. And it's OK for me to be challenged on those things. I might like it all the time either, but it's OK. And then the rest of the staff are my responsibility and I've got to manage them. So it would be very unusual for a member of our staff to have a formal conversation with anyone on our board. 

Renata (00:27:36) 

But what do you think makes it work between the board and the staff? And I'm really directing that at you. That's generally how the clubs are set up, right? The board has their own directives. They should be working on strategic planning and moving forward in conjunction with you as a CEO in that title. But, you know, what makes a really good copacetic working relationship between your role and the board? 

Paul (00:28:01) 

I think the exact same stuff that makes a good relationship between me and the staff, having an open, honest, respectful relationship with the people on the board. It always comes back to the people in my opinion and my experience. And if you believe that they're good people with good intentions, my job is to build those relationships individually and collectively, because I'm the person they're going to interact with the most. 

00:28:29 

Now, they won't even interact with each other as much as they interact with me on various different things. And so you got to have that personal relationship and it should be the same type of relationship that we have with the staff. There should be that element of trust, that element that we all want. We all have the same thing, you know, in our heart. We want kids to have the most positive experience of their young lives. We want our staff to have the most positive professional experience that they can have. And we want Wahoos to be around for another 50 years. 

00:28:58 

And I do believe that's the case. And I've always thought that's the case with all the different people that have come through and work on our board. So I think you gotta work on those relationships though, and you've gotta spend time on them. And you've gotta treat them the same way that you wanna be treated, which is honestly and with respect and with kindness. And I think so often, I've had negative experiences in the past with management. And my takeaway from that was I didn't do a good enough job fostering that positive relationship.  

00:29:31 

I didn't do a good enough job of communicating how I was feeling at certain times in it. And, you know, as those negative feelings built up, the relationship deteriorates because your interactions become more based around conflict than they are around outcomes and solutions. So I've been very conscious since I've been here that try to have those positive relationships. You can't shy away from difficult conversations, but you can have them in a kind and respectful manner as well. 

Renata (00:29:59) 

Yeah, those last few statements are just so loaded with great information because there's a lot of coaches that, listen, there's a lot of boards who deserve to be removed from their roles. But there's a lot of boards where parents are trying to do the best that they can for the organization, but they may not have the knowledge or the skill set that is required, right? And I'm not saying every board is like that. I'm just saying that's what's out there. 

00:29:59 

So a lot of times when something goes wrong or you got two or three things that go wrong, you know, the walls go up and both sides don't want to deal with each other. So I love the fact that you said I have to do my part in making sure that I'm doing the right things to build the relationship. And sometimes I would imagine you might feel like you're going up against a brick wall. Could you give a little bit of insight as to what you do in order to build those relationships and making sure you're doing your part as much as you can own as far as that those relationship-building building? 

Paul (00:31:03) 

Yeah, I think, but all relationships come down to communication. And whether it's relationships at home or, you know, in our social life or in our professional life, you know, there is no relationship without communication. And so I have with the staff once every three weeks, I try to check in with them at an individual level.  

00:31:22 

And what I try to do with the board is once every three weeks, I try to check in with at least one of them around something that's going on in our organization and sometimes they have the time to engage with me on it, sometimes they don't and that's totally fine. But I just have a little reminder set in my calendar that it's been three weeks and I should reach out to at least one of them and just check in and let them know about something that's going on in the organization that they're involved with. And then the way our board is set up, we meet quarterly. 

00:31:59 

There's 9 people on the board and only 3 of them are active swim parents at any one time. Yeah, and it's something we've worked really hard on over the last few years because to all your point, one of my core beliefs is that my professional future shouldn't be in the hands of someone with a vested interest in the outcome of someone in the program because we love our children more than we love anything else in this world. I have 3 boys and I do anything for them. I do anything for them.  

00:32:39 

And so, all parents should be exactly the same. So by the same token, I don't want my professional future and to be in the hands of people that have that unbiased or biased view of things. So we've worked hard to create an expertise-led board with needs that we have as a business and as an organization. But we also don't want to lose that connection to the parent body. So, when that number is dropped below 3, we've gone out and recruited from the parent body. So it's not that we're trying to remove parents off our board. We're just trying to have other expertise come to the table as well. 

Renata (00:33:16) 

I love it, you're putting skills first, which is massive, right? I mean, it doesn't mean that you can't get the skills from the parents, but that area right there is really difficult because parents are already donating a lot of their time. And sometimes when the one does raise their hand to be on the board, it's not always for the right reasons. So I love that you guys make it a point or a purpose that you have more than half. I've been trying to get clubs to do at least half.  

00:33:46 

Well, you know, you got an odd number, so it's going to be the one number. It'll be the minority, but if it's a nine-member board, it'll be 4 people that have to have a skill set from the community or, you know, from the wider area, not necessarily somebody within the organization. And what you're saying is that you have a majority that's outside of the organization and it's really working for you. 

Paul (00:34:09) 

It is, but it's interesting. We actually have a couple of ex-parents then that have come back and sat on the board after the kids have finished up swimming. And hopefully because of the positive experience that their kids had or that they had as a family here, and we found that expertise set out there, we were in dire need of some help and some HR stuff. Because when I took over as the CEO, that was something I didn't have, any experience in the formal side of it managing people and talking to people was fine, but that formal side of the HR stuff, we didn't, I didn't have any experience in.  

00:34:45 

So we went out trying to find someone with that expertise and we found an ex-parent, who's been an amazing addition to our board, not just at that level, in so many other areas. So that's one of the things we found quite successful is if we go back out to the community of our alumni, we have an alumni who has no kids in the program now sits on our board of directors as well. And he's been central to everything that we've done over the past 5 or 6 years. 

Renata (00:35:15) 

Yeah, it's great. He understands the swimming and the program but isn't necessarily going to wear the parent hat in the meeting. They're going to wear the business leader hat. That's great. 

Paul (00:35:24) 

Yeah. I mean, I've had no and I've been very lucky and I know it's not always like this, but we haven't had any issues. Our current board president is one of the three parent members of the board and he's never, ever, ever brought his kids into the mix when we're sitting in that room. And it's just a credit to him and to them as a working group as well. I understand that that's not always the way. So I do feel very lucky in that. 

00:35:49 

But I do think we've also spent time building relationships with each other that we all know that we want the same thing. So when mistakes happen, you know, at my level, at the operational and the management level, or at their level, at the governance level, we work through it. We find a path forward and we go with it. 

Renata (00:36:10) 

I think part of that luck as you call it though is because you guys have been very purposeful in making sure that the dominant part of your board is actually people with skills and thinking about the business. So it's not as easy for people to get pulled into the emotional side of things. And I think, I mean, it might be just my interpretation, but I think that a lot of times when you have a lot of parents, it's very easy to get pulled into the emotional stuff instead of, okay, wait, we need to take a breath, back up.  

00:36:40 

We need to think about the business overall. So I think it's because you guys have been really purposeful in your approach. But I love the fact that you have such a great working relationship with the board. And I would like the listeners to, you know, maybe kind of float that idea to their board, trying to change their bylaws. So at least it's open to recruiting people from outside of the membership. There's still a lot of bylaws that are written that it has to be 100% of the membership. So I think it's you've demonstrated that it works and that it is working and it can work for any club. 

Paul (00:37:15) 

It's been so great for us because I've learned from the people with expertise that we've brought in. They've been kind with their time. And the example of the HR guy that I mentioned, he's been a massive personal resource to me to help me navigate through some of the situations we find ourselves in as an employer. And through those experiences, then you build relationships and stuff like that instrumental, we've gone under quite aggressive capital projects.  

00:37:50 

We did a massive refurb my first year here that the business development manager-managed, but then we also added a dry land building just post-COVID as well. And I have no experience in that side of it. That was a board-driven project and they put in the groundwork on it. They were the guys talking with the construction people. They were the guys talking to the township, doing all that work for our organization.  

00:38:17 

As it should be, but it's also, they're not getting anything back for it. This is something that they are giving to us and they are giving us their greatest resource, which is their time. And it's something I always try to be very appreciative and respectful of when I ask for more of it, is that just like we said about coaching being really hard, you know what's even harder than coaching is volunteering. 

Renata (00:38:46) 

Yeah. Do you guys do quite a bit to celebrate your volunteers? Because a lot of clubs do struggle like to, to get volunteers involved. I just don't think that parents see, I mean, they're so busy now, right? And they just don't see. I don't want to say they don't see the value in, they don't understand how, unless you came up in swimming, how much the sport of swimming depends on the hard work and sweat, and vision of volunteers. So do you guys as a club, do you do a bit to celebrate your volunteers? 

Paul (00:39:25) 

No, we don't do a good job of that. We should. We don't. One of the things we do, we're a community-based nonprofit, so we always say to our members, there is an element of volunteerism in the nature of what we do. So when we run swim meets, we try not to run many of them. We're in the swim coaching business, not the swim meet business, but to facilitate and give our kids the necessary competitive opportunities.  

00:39:55 

We host three meets a year at an external facility, and we probably host another two kind of inter-club style events at our own facility. Our own facility is not up to hosting the swim meets. It's an amazing training facility, but it's not up to having hundreds of people come inside. We don't have the change room capacity, we don't have the spectator capacity for it. So we do a couple of internal events, an inter-squad meet, and a mini-meet every year.  

00:40:19 

And we always say to our families that there's an expectancy around a level of volunteerism at these events, and we do greatly appreciate it, but we also need it to make everything work. And then in terms of, and that comes on me as the leader, is that I have a hard time celebrating any success that isn't the kids, because I really try to keep the focus on the kids as much as possible, so we don't do a very good job of that so I won't try to spoof my way around it any other way. 

Renata (00:40:53) 

Yeah. Well, I try to get them to, I try to get the clubs that we work with to say, hey, listen, I don't care where you're speaking or where you're talking. If your first sentence is not acknowledging the volunteers of your organization, you're doing yourself a disservice. So even if you're doing a newspaper article or anything like that, you've got to acknowledge your volunteers. And I think it's, it's not like people are sitting around going, gosh, I wish Paul would say thank you.  

00:41:22 

That's not what we're trying to get to. But we really do, what ends up happening is you have the people who are super, super dedicated and because they're dedicated, they end up taking on way much work than they should because you can't get anybody else involved. And I think part of that is in getting that engagement is first explaining why it's so important to the organization. I don't know that clubs do a good job at explaining that. Yes, this is very different than a lot of sports, but not much different than other Olympic sports in that you have to have volunteers to run meets, right? And you have to have volunteers to do certain things to advance the organization.  

00:42:04 

So they have to understand the why. But the big thing that engages people is to know that they're appreciated. And then that person sitting next to them in the audience could go, well, I could have done that little piece of work. I have the skillset for that. And it just really helps to engage them. They don't know that unless you're constantly putting that thank you front and center, you know. So, except for the one yearly event where you may be doing awards or things like that. But, you know, yeah, do it on a regular basis. Yeah. 

Paul (00:42:33) 

Point taken. 

Renata (00:42:35) 

Sorry, Paul, I didn't know you were gonna get a coaching lesson in here. Do you have any other thoughts that you want to share with the listeners who are predominantly coaches? Things that are going on with you or the organization or anything you'd like for them to know about? 

Paul (00:42:58) 

I think, and I look at it, I said I'm obviously involved in my job and, you know, we volunteer our time to the LSC, we're part of Mid-Atlantic, we think that's important. We support and volunteer our time at USA Swimming, we're various different things and committees, and the same with ASCA, with myself. I think it's important to give back and I think it's also important to be involved in these things so you get out of your own local area and you see what's going on in the wider world.  

00:43:31 

And the big thing you see at the moment is that it's, you had mentioned earlier on about a lot of coaches, head coaches gravitating towards the age group roles. And I think it's because it's less time and less stress in addition to all the other roles that they're doing. I do, it's a trend that we notice and you see a lot of at the moment. And I do think it was it allows in a freeze of time to do some of the management and leadership pieces that when you're coaching at the very top level, I think can be quite overwhelming and quite overpowering in terms of your time. Because I do think 

Renata (00:44:09) 

That's interesting, I would have never thought about it that way. 

Paul (00:44:13) 

I think so, because I think when you're coaching at the top end, the more, the deeper into something a kid gets, the more invested they're going to be. And therefore the more invested their parents are going to be and the harder it is to, to manage those things. And I do think from being around on pool deck, I do think that's one of the trends we're seeing is some, some head coaches stepping back and the other trend we're seeing is that clubs like Wahoos are like splitting the role that maybe the CEO or the general manager is the head age group coach.  

00:44:46 

And then they just go and they hire a national level coach that can just solely focus on that side of it as well. There's no right or wrong with these things either. I think you gotta evaluate where you're at in your life and where the organization is at in terms of its needs and stuff like that as well. But I do think that's one of the reasons why that trend is happening is that coaching is amazing. 

00:45:09 

And, but it is also, it's a brutal profession. The hours that have to be kept, the travel that's involved, but also the emotional weight that being responsible for other people can bring. I took a year out when I finished up in Swim Ireland and before I moved to the States, I kept my hand in coaching, I went back to my old local club in Dublin and helped out with some of the younger groups. 

00:45:38 

But the biggest difference I felt in that year was I didn't have to make a decision. I could walk in on pool deck and coach. And I went home in the evening time and that was it. And they had a head coach, they had a group coach that bore all that brunt of all that weight and all that communication. And I definitely felt great for it. And I feel great now, but you know, with all those other things still going on as well. 

00:46:05 

So I think that emotional weight that gets carried around by being a coach and being responsible because, you know, not everybody, but the majority of people involved in coaching really, really passionately care about the people that they're working with. And we go to swim meets and, you could have 99 good swims and one bad swim and we'll stay up on Sunday night thinking about the bad swim. 

00:46:34 

And the hardest part about coaching is we're probably get 15 emails from the good swims of people wanting them to be better.  

Renata (00:46:43) 

How do you handle that?  

Paul (00:46:46) 

And I jokingly say to clean it. My wife with a smile on my face and love in my heart. And we really do try not to rise to it. Because at the end of the day, parents just love their kids and want them to show their best. And so we try, or I try my very best to take some time to take a step back and maybe not replied like reply. I have a drafts folder in my email that's probably got around 97 drafts and of emails I didn't send. And again, typically I've shown the cleaner, I've shown to the staff and they'd say, don't do that Paul.  

00:47:30 

They take a deep breath and try to send back something a bit more positive. The other real way I've tried to do it is I try to stay off text message and email as ways of actually talking things out. I think tone and context get lost in those type of communications. So if they if you receive an email challenging us over something, try to send a kind response back looking to talk about it, either on a call or face to face. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. 

Renata (00:48:03) 

Yeah, because I also think, well yeah, but I think it's also easier for people to get built up in the, again, the emotion of it all. Whereas if you, behind the screen, because it's all interpretation and assumption, and if you are able to sit in front of them, you can read their body language, you might be able to pick up like something else might be going on, right, and that they're really just picking away at this, but they really have a problem over here. 

00:48:28 

Or it also gives you a bigger insight into that parent and how they navigate their parenting as a parent of an athlete, that kind of thing. So I love that you take your time out to do your best to get in front of them instead of trying to handle those, what could be a difficult question or conversation, even if it's not on the outset by doing it face to face. I think that says a lot about you as a head coach for sure. For sure. 

00:49:00 

All right, Paul, well, thank you very much for joining us today. You gave everybody quite a bit to think about. I really appreciate your time and joining us. 

Paul (00:49:07) 

Thank you so much, it was great. 

Renata (00:49:09) 

Yes, thank you. And thank you everyone for listening and please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast so we can reach a bigger audience and help others such as yourself. And don't forget to go to the website yoursportsresource.com where you can find articles and tools as well as more info on how we can work with you directly.  

00:49:28 

And right now we have a survey up there. We are trying to find the root cause for why we believe there is a decline in swimmer membership in USA swimming. I hate the fact that we are working in assumptions. So I would love to hear from you guys on why you feel there might be a decline in your membership. So go to the website and fill out the 4-question survey. Finally remember, what is common sense isn't always common practice. Put what you learn into action. Don't just be good be good at it. Thanks, everybody.