Have you ever been jolted by a thought so strange and out of character that it stopped you in your tracks? Harold joined me in a riveting exchange where we unpack these mental intruders, commonly known as intrusive thoughts. We dissect the often negative and fear-inducing impact they have on our lives, from innocuous 'what-ifs' to thoughts that make us question our morality. This conversation isn't just about identifying these thoughts; it's a journey towards understanding the fine line between them and genuine urges, exploring the brain's oddities, and when to recognize that it's time to seek professional help.
Harold's curiosity leads us through a nuanced discussion, shedding light on how stress, fatigue, and life's pressures can make us particularly vulnerable to these unwanted cogitations. We delve into the ways these thoughts can escalate from simply bizarre to indicators of deeper psychological issues like PTSD or OCD, potentially governing our behaviors and seeding irrational fears. By the end of our talk, not only will you feel less alone in your experiences, but you'll also be armed with the knowledge of how to manage these thoughts and when it's crucial to reach out for support. So sit back, listen, and let's navigate the murky waters of our mind together.
Your support matters to us! Please give us a follow on each of our platforms to stay updated on what we're doing at PsychologistSay.
Have you ever been jolted by a thought so strange and out of character that it stopped you in your tracks? Harold joined me in a riveting exchange where we unpack these mental intruders, commonly known as intrusive thoughts. We dissect the often negative and fear-inducing impact they have on our lives, from innocuous 'what-ifs' to thoughts that make us question our morality. This conversation isn't just about identifying these thoughts; it's a journey towards understanding the fine line between them and genuine urges, exploring the brain's oddities, and when to recognize that it's time to seek professional help.
Harold's curiosity leads us through a nuanced discussion, shedding light on how stress, fatigue, and life's pressures can make us particularly vulnerable to these unwanted cogitations. We delve into the ways these thoughts can escalate from simply bizarre to indicators of deeper psychological issues like PTSD or OCD, potentially governing our behaviors and seeding irrational fears. By the end of our talk, not only will you feel less alone in your experiences, but you'll also be armed with the knowledge of how to manage these thoughts and when it's crucial to reach out for support. So sit back, listen, and let's navigate the murky waters of our mind together.
Your support matters to us! Please give us a follow on each of our platforms to stay updated on what we're doing at PsychologistSay.
The following is a series of candid conversations. The content is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for seeking help from a mental health care professional. To learn more info regarding additional disclaimers, privacy policies and terms and conditions, please visit HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2:
Bonjour, welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast where we talk about the psychology of everyday living, and I'm your host, dr Tammy. I'm joined today by a guest question. He listened to the last episodes and just specifically said can you tell me more about what an intrusive thought is? And I thought what a great opportunity and asked him if he'd be willing to come and have a discussion with me so that our listeners can be involved in this. And he agreed, so I'm so excited to have him here today. Welcome, harold.
Speaker 3:
Hello Tammy, Dr Tammy, Hello guests, listeners. Yeah, I'm pretty interested in psychology in general and excited to be here today.
Speaker 2:
Right. Well, I'm excited to have you, and your question to me really got me thinking about how I can get into my, I can put on my hat of being a psychologist, and what I'm trying to do is remember to take that hat off. Keep it on, but take it off when I need to and make sure that the words that I'm using are relatable and that they can be used by all of our listeners. So I really appreciated that. It brought me back to the purpose of this show, and the show was originally designed to have conversations with individuals, and, if you guys remember Rob, he was on with us a very long time and I've had other guests, and so I'm really glad to kind of go back to that format right now.
Speaker 2:
So again, when you think about intrusive thoughts, it relates to an unwanted thought. It's something that pops up and it has something negative associated with it. It's something that's basically unwanted and so that's why it's considered intrusive. It's like it's not invited in but it's somehow entering your awareness and it's focusing your attention on something that may be unpleasant. Kind of nervous or very fearful of these thoughts, because they're often associated with fear or thoughts that are maybe inappropriate, or they kind of wonder if that's their personality. So they kind of start to get a little and a lot concerned about such thoughts.
Speaker 3:
Uh right about such thoughts, uh right.
Speaker 2:
Can you see how that um is that kind of helping, or did? Is there more that I can give you, maybe a good example of what that is for our listeners? Because I feel like maybe I just I just said a whole mouthful there again.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah, you did Um, but I think you explained it well. Just that explanation helps me better understand what rumination intrusive thoughts are, but an example would be pretty helpful.
Speaker 2:
Okay, so a common example would be like fear of walking out of a store and stealing something.
Speaker 3:
Oh, so something that.
Speaker 2:
Like something you don't, an individual who really doesn't want to do those kinds of behaviors. All of a sudden in their mind they may be in a store shopping and all of a sudden an intrusive, unwanted, negative thought of like grab that, uh that 20 dollar, uh you know package of meat and stuff it in your purse and walk out right. Their mind may be thinking and even maybe even seeing themselves do that and it's totally against their character. So they start to go. Why did I just think that? What am I doing? Am I a bad person? Would I? Is there a chance I would actually do this? And then they really start to uh, start to question themselves and then feel a lot of shame, worry and fear associated with their own personality. They, they start to question themselves. Yep.
Speaker 3:
For me. I got an example that might, I think, would align with. That is and this is kind of an extreme one but say you're, I'm driving down the road, and then I have a thought oh what if I just drove into this truck, which is absolutely insane and I would never do that Would that be considered Perfect example?
Speaker 2:
Okay, perfect example. And when I'm educating patients when they don't really know what it is, many people are scared to talk about them. So it's usually not until patients are really comfortable with me or feel safe enough that they open up about even a thought like you just talked about. And so I'm glad that you went for an extreme example, because voicing it and knowing right away that that's not whatever, ever, what, that I would never do, that do that. You know why am I thinking?
Speaker 3:
that already shows yep, and you kind of you already touched on this already. But whenever you have that thought, it questions your own. You start to question your own personality and your own. Uh, you know your own morals, your own, you know ethical principle system, but am I bad? Am I a bad person? Am I? What the hell? Am I suicidal? Suddenly, like no, I'm not, I'm just. I just had a crazy thought.
Speaker 2:
I'm not, I'm normal, I'm okay, just cruising on the road I'm just cruising on the road yeah and so I think that's that's, that's that self-talk of um paying attention to a thought like that and it's intrusive means it's it was not invited in, you weren't driving in like Ooh, let's just have a really scary thought right now that freaks me out.
Speaker 2:
It was uninvited, it popped into your mind in one thing. When those thoughts pop in, it's kind of like Whoa you're? You might even have a physiological reaction like a bit of anxiety or a bit of like what the heck am I thinking? And that's where you start and do those things. You said like hold on, this is. You called it a crazy thought. And then this is the importance of this podcast. So I'm now saying you can call that an intrusive thought.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, correct the language a little bit. There you go.
Speaker 2:
And I think that's the most powerful thing about psychologists say, is using the terms that we do use in psychology so that you can appropriately label what's going on, versus using some of the terms that society has set up that has the negative connotations and then so we start to have shame and self-doubt and fear. Versus saying, oh wait, that's an intrusive thought and people, everybody experiences intrusive thoughts at some point. And the difference is when an individual starts to have intrusive thoughts that some point and the difference is when an individual starts to have intrusive thoughts that are really bothersome, repetitive and very difficult to distinguish. You were able to go hold on, I'm not going to do that, I'm not wanting to hurt myself or anybody else.
Speaker 2:
Wow, that was strange. And you were able to, you know, collect yourself and, of course, no urge to actually engage in the behavior. Yep, so those are. That's like a self-analysis, and sometimes people may not even have the ability to do that. That thought may have just scared them and so that thought sits there as a fear thought that may repetitively kind of come up over and over again for them. That's where it could lead to like, boy, I really am starting to get scared. I would actually do something like that one day.
Speaker 3:
Right, so like it repeats so often in their head that it may become a reality.
Speaker 2:
That they're fearful that this is something about me, this is something that maybe I actually desire, or this means I'm really struggling with something and because of that shame or that fear or that self-doubt, they're not really sharing that with anybody. They're really hoarding, they're hiding that in secrecy.
Speaker 3:
Right. So I guess my first question is Is there a difference between having one or two single intrusive thoughts versus these here and there throughout, um, you know, the week or?
Speaker 2:
throughout the month, throughout the year, and that you're able to go whoa, okay, no urge, no desire to do that, that was interesting, that was strange. And you're able to redirect your thought onto something else. Yeah, versus uh. The other end, where individuals start, especially if you have an anxiety disorder, it's not as easy to just go oh, that was interesting, that didn't mean anything, that was strange. And redirect your brain into, oh, that has nothing to do with my reality. So an anxious brain, somebody who has anxiety or depression, their brain is not able to just shift like that. Okay, there you go. So all of a sudden, that that thought, whatever that intrusive thought is, uh, I'll give you another example so listeners can hear this uh, like just a thought of I'm gonna, I what if I hurt somebody? In terms of of I'm in the kitchen and I see kitchen knives oh my God, I'm walking with one, I'm trying to put it away. Oh my gosh, what if I hurt somebody?
Speaker 2:
Just walking with the knife Just walking, trying to put the knife back in the drawer, and so I think it's that fear thought of oh gosh, why did I just think that? And so it's these really negative thoughts that an individual again very important. There's no urge, no history of that type of behavior. It's coming out of the clear blue. But when a person is anxious, they start to worry about that, that that means something bigger for them and they may repent, they may avoid then or you know, I don't want to touch any knives in the house, I don't want to. You know, I'm fearful that I would actually act on this thought.
Speaker 3:
Right. So so I guess the just the idea, just having an intrusive thought it could lead to intrusive thought itself isn't a disorder or anything. It's natural Everyone.
Speaker 2:
It's a symptom.
Speaker 3:
It's a symptom.
Speaker 2:
Yep, and then so it's a symptom when it becomes part of other symptoms that become uncomfortable. Sure, so it could be a symptom of trauma, ptsd. Sure, of like trauma, ptsd, things, that these things that intrusively pop up for you, that are difficult and unwanted and have a negative impact on how you're functioning in that moment, and they come often and they're a real difficulty redirecting, okay, uh, maybe even distinguishing the reality of them, like we're talking about, yeah, um, and so everybody and just will have these intrusive thoughts. Yes, and when they become part of um, like if somebody came in, they, they it's a part of a bigger picture, of something like anxiety, depression. It's a difficulty really controlling that.
Speaker 3:
Okay, so it's a symptom, right?
Speaker 2:
It's a symptom for somebody who has like, who's experiencing at a high rate okay so a symptom becomes like a clinical term, okay for, uh, somebody who is experiencing distress, okay, and that it's, it's bothersome, it's it's impairing them in some way, okay. So that's the difference between, like, a person who every now and again has this intrusive thought of like whoa that was everybody has an intrusive thought uh, yes pretty much everybody pretty much everybody that's.
Speaker 2:
The brain is kind of like these fear thoughts okay the difference is those individuals and go, that was a strange thought, whoa, and then they redirect and so somebody who goes whoa, and then they have that thought again, and then later again, and then it becomes uh, what if I do this? But I don't want to, it's totally nothing, that has to do with anything I've ever done in life. Does this mean I'm a bad person, um, for even having these thoughts right? And so that's when it becomes uncontrollable and that's where um, coming in and just talking, usually people don't present for that, they present for like panic. I'm feeling anxious, right, I can't sleep at night, I'm having difficulty relaxing, I'm feeling down or depressed. So eventually you start to be able to see other things that become part of just impairing their everyday functioning and causing them distress day functioning and causing them distress.
Speaker 3:
Right At what point, whenever you're looking at, say, someone comes in and you're talking to them and they have the rumination or these intrusive thoughts. Where does your mind go, as far as like where, well, what could this person be experiencing? Or what should I be looking at to help this person?
Speaker 2:
Right, it's understanding that. What do they believe about this? Do they have an urge to do something like that? A?
Speaker 3:
true urge.
Speaker 2:
A true urge. So that's where somebody in our field would be necessary to help somebody sort through this. So we're talking today about individuals who have intrusive thoughts, who have absolutely. They scare them, they're totally against their personality, their nature. They don't have any desire to steal something, it's more of a oh my gosh. It's really inconsistent with the way they actually behave in life. That's why it's so devastating that these thoughts could pop up, and so that's part of the assessment. So it's an intrusive thought and it's something that you have to understand, if there's any.
Speaker 2:
There are people out that seek behavioral health, mental health, that are struggling with urges to engage in self-destructive acts, right, who these thoughts really scare them, they feel a lot of shame with them, they don't talk about them and it's creating so much anxiety because they don't understand why they're having them Right. So I'm so glad when an individual starts to share some of those in session, then I can tell them oh, okay, and I can walk them through that and then they can understand it, and the more they talk about these intrusive thoughts, the more um power that they can have over them. That's like kind of getting it off your chest and understanding it yeah, understanding yeah demystifying it, labeling it, and then it's like okay, uh, I also.
Speaker 2:
They'll also come up more. If you're an anxious person and you're having really anxious like a period of time, extra stress, more fatigue, this is a time when those fear thoughts may come up more often.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, those factors will increase the chance of an intrusive thought. There you go, okay.
Speaker 2:
So then, giving people that education, they're like, oh, that makes sense. You know I don't always have these, but yeah, when I'm stressed out and I'm overwhelmed and I'm tired, I'm not eating well, I'm not taking care of myself, I feel uptight. Yeah, I tend to have way more of those fear thoughts and they, they come out of the blue, but they happen like during that time and then. So I said, well, that that's a good sign to do a self-check, that your anxiety is really high, that your intrusive thoughts are increasing.
Speaker 3:
right, so there'll be more intrusive thoughts whenever someone's uh more anxious or going through a stressful time, but they could happen anytime.
Speaker 2:
Yes.
Speaker 3:
Even in times of good. Yes, okay.
Speaker 2:
Yes, that's the thing they're uninvited, you're not preparing for them, you're not saying you know, today I want to definitely have this really scary thought or unpleasant, and then so a lot of that it becomes with vocalizing it, sharing it to somebody who can help demystify it.
Speaker 3:
Right, like, you're not a bad person, you're not crazy, you're okay.
Speaker 2:
Not at all. Yeah, not at all. So there's so many more examples. We kind of stuck to some pretty extreme, like hurting somebody, you know. We kind of stuck to some some pretty extreme, you know, like, yeah, you know, hurting somebody, or um, I think it was good that, uh, we talked about that because it's it's showing the, the um that how, how big these can get yeah, the range of it, the range um, and so it's it's.
Speaker 2:
There's so many other things that are involved with that and um, it's. It's more about how do I talk about it, how do I learn to label it? How do I um? What can I do to if I'm having these? How do I shift? How do I?
Speaker 3:
right, how do you shift? Because you know, like you don't really control your thoughts, they kind of pop in as they will and you can probably influence the way you think a little bit. But for the most part the way you think is the way you think and that's just the way it is, at least from my understanding, From your understanding right.
Speaker 2:
And then, of course, because I do CBT cognitive behavior therapy I would want to just like totally reframe all of that in terms of this intrusive thought.
Speaker 2:
Yes, it's like that. You're not in control of it because it's popping in there. You're not doing it on purpose. Yet now that you know what it is, you can label it. You can see that there's such a range. So anything that's an unwanted, almost like a what-if thought that scares the crap out of you, that goes against your personality or that you feel like you really want to hide or you're shame about that's when you can start to go oh wait, okay, I can label this, I can tell my brain what it is. I can even this. I can tell my brain what it is. I can even file it. I can say you know what? That's an unnecessary, unwanted thought. I'm going to create a file system in my brain that I'm going to file that as an intrusive thought. It's a waste of my time, it's a waste of my energy and I'm going to put it in this file and I'm going to lock that in my brain.
Speaker 3:
Right. So if it does come up again, you know it goes back to that file.
Speaker 2:
You go back, you do the same thing of oh, there it is again.
Speaker 3:
Yep, I've been here before. I've been here before Yep.
Speaker 2:
There used to be something that they did in terms of like thought stopping where you would try to just go, stop, stop. And it's kind of like it wasn't really working because it's like don't say that, Don't think of red, Don't say the color you know. All of a sudden, your brain wants to go red, red, red, red.
Speaker 3:
Yep, yep.
Speaker 2:
So instead it's more about um having that kind of empowerment of um I think even being scared of it is what makes it come on.
Speaker 2:
more it's like any kind of anxiety, the more fear that's. What keeps anxiety growing and maintaining is the fear of it. So once you're no longer scared of these thoughts, you understand where they're coming from, then you do have control over them. And the other thing is talking about them, reading about them. So we can't cover every one of the intrusive thoughts here. But going online and getting a book about intrusive thoughts, anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder, OCD, kind of looking at different things, you can start to see the wide range of what these thoughts look like and people can start to say, okay, oh, wow, I'm not the only one who has that fear. When I'm holding a kitchen knife, I mean, wow, we are, you know. So it starts to um, people start to feel like, okay, this, this is, this, could be part of this anxiety and I'm not alone in this Right, and there's treatment for this.
Speaker 3:
Yep, you bring that up like the. I'm not alone in this. What's interesting is I see in a poll it was a meme, so it was a picture of someone near Cliff Edge and the title was what if I jumped off?
Speaker 2:
No.
Speaker 3:
I'm not going to off. No, I'm not gonna do that. I wouldn't do that lol that's a perfect right yeah, and I'm like, oh okay, other people have these wild, crazy intrusive thoughts too. At the time I wouldn't have said intrusive, but yeah, and now. That's a perfect example it led me away from like, oh okay, other people experienced this, Now I can kind of move on away from it.
Speaker 2:
Yes, and I can relate to others. It doesn't mean that I'm a bad person. And those are some of the questions that right away I'll tell my patient. Right away I'll tell my patient. Like the thought that the fact that the thought distresses you this much already shows that it's one of those intrusive thoughts. It's so upsetting to you that you're even thinking about it shows me already that this is a sign of anxiety. This is, this does not have anything to do with an urge or an intent or a plan to actually do something like this right so that alone can help people go.
Speaker 2:
Oh so, yes, that fits that. That helps me understand that. Um, that's why I'm, that's why it scares me so much, because there's absolutely no way I would do something like that.
Speaker 3:
And for the people that think of those thoughts and sticks in their head, there's a larger, probably a larger issue at hand than just the thought itself.
Speaker 2:
There you go.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
They're not able to, you know, so that's good for people listening to the podcast. This is a we're definitely talking about. You know, bigger issues here that are probably getting a lot of people, you know, doing a lot of self-awareness, self-analyzing, and so I want to make sure that remember, this is a discussion for our listeners to engage in, and then to make sure that you do some more of your research on this. If you feel like you're struggling with this, definitely seek out some mental health in your area. This is something that, if it's coming on a lot, you don't want to tackle this alone. This is something where even a conversation like today is something similar.
Speaker 2:
You could do with a therapist and start to work on healing and understanding things like this versus, you know, suffering through them, and so I think this was a really good talk today and I want to thank all of our listeners and thank you Great, great, great questions.
Speaker 2:
I mean my brain's going and I know that we only have so much time, so I know that this is another. You know, we'll definitely revisit this, because we didn't even get into, like rumination or OC obsessions and OCD type. I mentioned those a bit, so it's already like where we're, our brains, are starting to want to talk about all the different areas where a higher level or problematic level of intrusive thoughts could come into play and really cause some distress in somebody's life. So I just want to remind everybody that this was a great conversation. This is not a replacement for therapy. This is a discussion, and so I definitely want you to seek out your resources and seek support, and thank you for listening. I want to thank our guest, harold, for joining us today and just really having a stimulated conversation about intrusive thoughts.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it's been great. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:
PS. Intrusive thoughts are normal, but if you feel like acting on one of these thoughts in a way that could cause harm to yourself or someone else, get medical help immediately. Thank you for listening.
