Serial Entrepreneur David Lively

David Lively and his wife has over 20 years of experience starting, growing, and selling businesses. Listen in as he describes how they has striven to glorify Christ in all of their business endeavors. You will hear many fascinating stories, lessons learned, and much glorifying of Christ in this interview!

Davids website
Davids LinkedIn
Amys (Davids wife) LinkedIn
Books mentioned on the show -

Monday Morning Atheist 
Every Good Endeavor

Transcript

Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO: 0:00

Welcome to the biblical leadership at work podcast. I'm your host, Jason Woodard. In this month's episode, we will meet David lively. David has over two decades of experience as a successful entrepreneur, having had the opportunity to start grow and then sell. To businesses. His experience is in the retail furniture industry and in the software industry. Now he is working as a business consultant, helping other business leaders implement the biblical principles David and his wife have used to successfully own and lead their own two organizations. In today's show, you will hear a lot of great wisdom, including how we can leave organizations.

David: 0:40

this company was small enough, it didn't have enough space for two young guys who were,

Jason (2): 0:45

Up

David: 0:45

know, full of energy and dreams and goals and focus. And so I went to his dad and said, Hey, you know, the writing's kind of on the wall. I love you. I love your son. I want nothing but goodness to happen here. And he said, I'll make a call for you. And, I. Started a job in just a couple of weeks at a larger company, in a management role,

Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO: 1:10

You will also hear how God has led David and his wife through many twists and turns, but has always remained faithful.

David: 1:17

Thank you Lord. I can't believe the twists and turns that my life has gone through and looking back, seeing you every step of the way. at 58 years old, it's quite. an overwhelming and amazing look back. You know, it, it, it makes me love him more.

Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO: 1:39

And you will hear many examples of how David views work as a ministry and a calling.

David: 1:45

The work of ministry is to love, Christ's. sons and daughters well to love creation. Well and so, I wrapped my head around that pretty deeply. And, we operated our company, really every day for the last 20 years with the idea, the concept that our work is extremely important. That every opportunity we have to talk to a customer, to talk to a coworker, to talk to a supplier or a vendor or a partner. Those were all opportunities to represent Christ in the work of ministry.

Jason (2): 2:26

Okay. Well, David Lively, thank you so much for taking time outta your, busy schedule brother, and jumping on the podcast with me to let people get to know you.

David: 2:35

Awesome. I'm looking forward to it, Jason. it's exciting to catch up and talk about these important things.

Jason (2): 2:41

So let's start off, let's talk about your background. I know you've got quite a, a, a long career and, we've talked a little bit about that. But take us back to your career beginnings, you know, education professional, did you start and up to now, where you, where are you, where's God Got you now.

David: 2:59

you know, I always think my long career, makes me an old man. I feel it every day. You know, physically, things hurt that never hurt. it's been 35 years in business. And, prior to that, I started out with a failed, college career. I was on the six year program and still didn't finish. during that time, I, took a job, that, I had no earthly idea would turn out to be a huge part of my life's work, in business. I always laugh at myself saying, I'll bet you when you are a little boy, or most little boys I ever met, never said, when I grow up, I want to sell sofas to people. But I ended up in, I ended up in the furniture business and, that started back in the, in the, mid nineties. and that was back in the day when, our banks were absolutely crazy and they lended 167% loan to value on my wife and I's first home. And we went out and opened a little, retail store and, that began the ride. And, we worked hard and kept growing and carefully investing and it turned out to be 40 locations, across nine states, and ultimately ended up with 1100 employees. became a big company and, we, we were fortunate enough, to sell that business, in the, uh, early two thousands. that sale was very much related to family, because we had a young daughter at the time. She was, four and a half coming up on five years old. And my life at the time was, Sunday night or Monday morning airplanes and arriving home late Friday night or Saturday morning from a week's worth of trips. And it wasn't how my wife and I wanted to do life. And while we were fortunate, financially, and it felt good, for, you know, pride and ego for me personally, it just wasn't our life goals. And so we, we took a pause for a couple of years. I ended up going back to school, got a bachelor's degree in practical ministry, from. Southern Ohio School of Ministry and, we started a little software company and, have spent the last 17 years, building that software company and, and sold it just a year ago as well. And so I think I'm down to the final frontier here. I am back at the very beginning as a startup and, I've opened, a Christian coaching business and, have been fortunate enough to take a first client and I'm working hard with them, to use kingdom principles in the marketplace. And so it's fun and it's exciting and it's my passion and so kind of my work history.

Jason (2): 5:58

me back to how did you get into furniture retail? Was it just, Hey, I need a job and hiring?

David: 6:06

yes, yes. It start, it started in the warehouse. my job was to unload freight trucks that came in. And, I enjoyed the work. I enjoyed the people around. and, the owner of that company, I'm putting words in his mouth, but he just recognized, you know, Hey, this is a nice young man. He's a hard worker. he could probably do more than just unload boxes. And so I got, promoted to a 100% commissioned sales job and excelled at that. I did quite well. And, and really, I. When my wife and I got married, that was my job. And, uh, it, it provided nicely for our family for the first few years. and then that job led to the next promotion into a low level management job. and that low level management job led to the next management job. And then, interestingly enough, kind of part of that story is the company was quite small and, my wife and I had recently been married and, The owner's son was in our wedding. And, uh, so he came home from, Colorado, where he was living at the time to be in our wedding, and he picked us up from our honeymoon and said, Hey, I'm real excited. I'm coming back to work at the family business. And, and my heart dropped, because I, I love my friend very much, but this company was small enough, it didn't have enough space for two young guys who were,

Jason (2): 7:43

Up

David: 7:43

know, full of energy and dreams and goals and focus. And so I went to his dad and said, Hey, you know, the writing's kind of on the, the wall. I love you. I love your son. I want nothing but goodness to happen here. And he said, I'll make a call for you. And, um, I, Started a job in just a couple of weeks at a larger company, in a management role, and did that for a while. a couple,

Jason (2): 8:09

furniture. Furniture, retail as well.

David: 8:13

it was, And, and during those couple of years there, I, I saw an opportunity and, borrowed all that money and got started on our own.

Jason (2): 8:23

out on your own.

David: 8:24

You know, another interesting part that just popped in my mind about that going out on my own, our dreams and goals don't always align with our flow.

Jason (2): 8:36

That's true.

David: 8:37

And, we were operating a very nice little business, but we, didn't plan well enough for the runway. How long is it gonna take for this little business to produce enough revenue to pay for our family's bills? fortunately we had. just loving parents who helped us through those early times and kept us going. And once we got over the hump, then, God blessed us and the company started to really grow. The other fascinating thing about that first little store is our daughter, she's 27 now, but she was born on November the fourth, and our very first store opened on November the 22nd. And that's advice I would never give anyone. Don't have a kid and open your first business a few weeks later, because, th those two things don't align well.

Jason (2): 9:31

Well, I will share with you that my oldest son, our, our oldest son and his wife are business owners. And I think they've been in business now about a little over two years and a year into that they had their first child And have, you know, remodeling their house. And I think some of the stuff that I did when we were young and I'm like, oh no, this is so much, and yeah, I can get really overwhelming, but the Lord provides, I think he grows us through those, he grows stressful and challenging times.

David: 10:02

No question.

Jason (2): 10:03

and say, I don't know if I'd do it just like that again. But,

David: 10:05

Yep.

Jason (2): 10:06

and uses that, uses that stuff to grow us. I think,

David: 10:10

Yes. Agreed. Yep.

Jason (2): 10:13

so you've had two businesses you've sold, which I think is amazing. I lo I never get tired of hearing how God took someone young in their life when they were trying to figure stuff out. Am I supposed to go to college? Certainly you probably felt like, man, I went to college. That didn't work out. there had to when you felt a little bit of being a little lost or despair, but God had a plan for you obviously has blessed you and your leading you through this career path. And I, one of the things I, I always want people to get out of this podcast is that hindsight, right? Because I would assume there's listeners that are maybe years, 30 years younger than you or I going through now and feeling that. And so it's always encouraging to hear how, as a faithful believer, if you're, know, focused on walking with the Lord. That there'll be ups and downs and twists and turns, and he'll bring things to you that you are not aware of. But, there's many, many blessings that come, you know, when we stay steadfast with him.

David: 11:10

as believers, you know, we read scripture, and, my experience has been oftentimes we read that scripture and understand it intellectually, oh, I know what these words mean. but moving those words from our heads to our hearts, that's what changes everything. and the reality is, God has made promises to his sons and daughters, and God doesn't break those promises to his sons and daughters. He is faithful. He, provides immeasurable grace and love. And so, I wasn't able to verbalize this as a young man, but the reality of the look back now is, I was focused first on the kingdom of God as it's written in Matthew

Jason (2): 12:00

That's right.

David: 12:01

and all else was added to me.

Jason (2): 12:04

That's

David: 12:04

it never, it never minute by minute felt that way through some of the challenges. but when you are able to look back over a life lived, you go, wow. that's just one more example of God caring for me in a way that, that is better than I ever expected, better than I could have ever dreamed. and I just didn't maybe acknowledge that at the time.

Jason (2): 12:32

Exactly.

David: 12:33

today I praise that, like, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord. I can't believe the twists and turns that my life has gone through and looking back, seeing you every step of the way. at 58 years old, it's quite. an overwhelming and amazing look back. You know, it, it, it makes me love him more.

Jason (2): 12:59

Your faith grows stronger.

David: 13:01

Mm-Hmm.

Jason (2): 13:02

just know, you know, you just know he's proven himself over and over and over. think about it, I had a pastor one time who used to use an example of, a needle point on the front right, is this image and these words, but on the back, on the back it's a hot, chaotic mess. And you look at the back and you're like,

David: 13:22

Yep.

Jason (2): 13:23

And sometimes, and so his, his point was that sometimes alls we see is the back of that needle point and we look at our and go. So this is crazy. This is a mess. But you know, God's got something he's mapping out for us, which is yeah,

David: 13:35

That's such a wonderful, wonderful example, picture that you just put in my head, that I had never heard before. Wow. That, that is absolutely the case.

Jason (2): 13:45

appreciated his share in that true. David, talk about faith. tell us about your faith. did you grow up in the church? Did you come to know the Lord later? What's that look like?

David: 13:54

I did, I, was, fortunate to grow up in a, Christian family. I went through, A denominational confirmation. the term that lots of people know would be catechism, a sixth through eighth grade, two year period of time. It's kind of a young man coming of age, or young woman coming of age. the study of, okay, how's the Bible structured? what is the story of the Bible? why do we believe what we believe? What are the big foundational building blocks of the faith? And that time, I was all in. I left those two years going, wow, this is the, this is the greatest story I've heard in my life. I'm all in, I am full on, believing I, I get this. but I will say, you know, life happens and, those beliefs didn't always, as a young man line up with the actions and activities of my life. you know, I would describe myself as a wayward believer for many, many numbers of years. and ultimately for me, Jason, it was, and I actually find it true often today. I feel I. Like an outsider, the structure of the church, the conversation in the, you know, as you're walking into the sanctuary, how are you today? Fine. How are you? Fine. How are you? Fine. And I am sitting there on the inside going, wow, all these people are fine. And I'm not,

Jason (2): 15:30

and,

David: 15:30

and, and, and and I, I literally just go, wow. I, it makes me uncomfortable because I'm not fine. I'm actually dependent and needy and, desirous of the personal relationship with Christ and. Life isn't always fine for me. so as a young man, I wasn't able to process that real well. what it made me feel like is, oh, I'm not welcome here because I'm so messed up and all of these people are fine. Well, I don't want to go to a place where I am messed up. And so, you know, I will say I walked away from the formal relationship with, you know, what we call the church today.

Jason (2): 16:20

Yep.

David: 16:21

but I, I never, ever, had a moment of doubt, like, oh, I don't believe what I was taught. I don't believe what I believe. That never happened to me. and then, you know, as I matured and got to, you know, my feet under me a little bit as a, as a man, I started to figure out. These folks aren't necessarily fine. and I hesitate to say that because I'm not, I certainly am not judging when I say that. I just know from experience now, from doing life with other men, with husbands and wives together, we're all dealing with the challenges of earth,

Jason (2): 17:03

It's sin and earth and

David: 17:05

the, the fall.

Jason (2): 17:06

Yes. Yeah.

David: 17:07

And, and, if we jumped all the way back to Genesis, you and I should be able to walk naked before God.

Jason (2): 17:16

Right?

David: 17:16

that was the story, that what was going on. and we don't need fig leaves because we are purely who we are and we're honest with ourselves and with him and with our situations and, you know, we all know that's not how life works. And, um, post fall, we sin has entered and life's different.

Jason (2): 17:39

I recently had a chance to, I occasionally will fill the pulpit. And one of the things that I was challenging our congregation and myself with was growing in holiness and what are those things that we ought to be doing? one of the phrases that I used was to be living in vulnerable community with our church body. I think that word is important critical, that vulnerable piece, because what you said about, the meat and greet and the, and the narthex. I haven't, I haven't heard that word used in a long time. But Yeah. And you know, everyone, everything's fine. Even though. the way to church, you just had a knock down drag out in the car with your right? And it's, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, as I look back at, as I grew into church leadership roles, that was the first time for me that I realized not everybody's fine. I mean, I started to see some of the, the mess in people's lives. And again, not judging because we had'em in

David: 18:36

Yep.

Jason (2): 18:36

And I, I just want always to encourage other believers to be willing to live in that vulnerable state with at least people in your church body to let them know, I meet fairly regularly with some of the men in our church over coffee, one-to-one. I love doing that. I like that, type of relationship building. I always wanna be able to have open conversations with them and let them know that it's okay. You know, that struggle, not that I would say it's okay. Like, don't fight it. Yeah. We need to wrestle and fight and still grow in our holiness, but don't think that you're the only one, because what you talked about feeling alienated or I'm the only one who's dealing with some kind of an issue will drive people away. And, uh, that's, you know, we don't, we want them to, to come and be open and say, I need help. You know, who can come and help me in this? And that's part of why, it's part of why I do this podcast.'cause I want to talk to about, we'll talk a little bit about what struggles have you faced, what have you learned? And guess what? Learning is usually a process of failing and making mistakes, you know,

David: 19:39

Yeah. Yeah. And getting comfortable with those failures and mistakes,

Jason (2): 19:43

Exactly.

David: 19:44

I'm, I'm Okay. Yes. I, I mess this up. I'm responsible and that's okay. and has to get worked out person by person.

Jason (2): 19:54

it does. So, question for you then, you think back through, you've owned businesses, you've led people for several decades. David, is there something that you've come to a point where when you think about biblical effective leadership in the workplace, like what does that boil down for you? How would you summarize the, the key important points or, you know, kind of what's your, what's your go-to motto or the way you think about effective biblical leadership at work?

David: 20:21

Yeah. so I, I met a teacher, from Chillicothe, Ohio. It's a small town in, southern Ohio. And, he was an instructor during, my time in bible college. And he was, working on a process at the time and writing a book and trying to form up his thinking around these things. And when he shared it with me, for me it was like a light bulb moment. and ultimately. he ended up calling it alignment. and alignment is an easy description of a harder set of terms, kingdom sequence. it's just four easy steps in terms of the words. They're very hard to actually, live out. but I have built companies based on this, I've taught it to, every person that has ever worked for me, in the last 19 years. and so alignment is authority, order, function. And in the kingdom of God, the final step would be blessing. That's what, as believers we're trying to, act in a way or do things in a way that create blessing in the for profit marketplace, the goal is profit. So authority, order, function, profit is the marketplace sequence of alignment. and then, you know, to talk about it just a little bit. So once something is placed under authority, or authority has been established, you know, like, okay, who is responsible for this action or activity within an organization? They become the authority. Then that authority can begin to place things in order. So, you know, we're gonna do this and we're gonna do that. this is the outcome. And, once things are ordered for people, they can begin to go to work on it. And when groups of people begin to go to work on things that are properly placed in order, they function. and when the sequence comes together, it produces profit, in life. you know, we place ourselves under the authority of Jesus. and, interestingly enough, Jesus understood this real well. so if you move this into scripture and think about it. So when Jesus approached John at the river for baptism. He understood Christ, understood that John was the authority who needed to baptize him. John said, John said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nope. You are the lamb. I, I, I don't, don't make me do this. and Christ understood that it had to happen that way because John was the earthly authority to baptize, mankind. so then that process kind of plays out through that baptism. So Jesus placed himself under John's authority. And when Jesus came out of the water, God audibly spoke and said, this is my son and I am pleased. God placed things in order by pointing out, Jesus is my son, and I am well pleased. and then Jesus started to function in his ministry. he goes out into the desert, he begins to do battle with Satan. he shows us how things are to work, and then comes back. I am sure totally wiped out by the way. you know, like, whew, that was a rough 40 days. But he begins then the activity of his ministry obviously the final part of that story is, and the blessing of mankind happened as a result of Jesus understanding how the sequence worked. And so, you know, it works terrific as a framework in business. I. It also is then proven in scripture. and it's so easy to teach people because, think about this. in an automobile, cars, up until recently ran on gasoline. So the way to make a combustion engine work was to put gas in it. And without gas, the car won't run. It doesn't mean that the car is broken. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with the car. It doesn't mean anything other than, oh, this car is now out of order

Jason (2): 25:09

Right.

David: 25:10

because the authority of a combustion engine is you have to put gas in it. As soon as you do put gas into an auto and turn the key, it begins to function and the result is it takes you down the road. So, you know, this is not a really complicated framework. It's actually a very simple framework. and it's worked really well in my life, over the last, coming up on 20 years now.

Jason (2): 25:40

One of the things I always go back to when I think of leadership, and as you're talking, I'm bouncing this model off of that one, and I think there's a lot of parallel is that I always say that you, you have to give clear and realistic expectations to people and those, those are important words, clear and realistic, and then you have to hold people consistently accountable.

David: 26:01

Yes.

Jason (2): 26:02

that fits in with what you're saying. I understand. I understand what you're saying. Once you have, have clear ownership, you've given them the tools they need

David: 26:11

Mm-Hmm.

Jason (2): 26:12

them in that process, and then they, they execute and you just kinda repeat the process. the one question I did pop up in my mind is the outcome should be in the business world You have this process, you execute and it should generate a profit. There's times, I'm guessing, when we execute it well and the profit doesn't come, but at least now we've said, well, okay, we know that we've had a process that we've operated in. Maybe our strategy's wrong and we need to tweak that a little bit. But at least you've controlled the, the chaos, and you have to control that chaos and have that defined process to follow.

David: 26:50

Well, yes. And the framework then gives you a place to go back and look.

Jason (2): 26:55

Exactly,

David: 26:56

the, that's the key. Like when, when, when the result is not producing the outcome that you want, well, do you have a problem at the authority level? and the word strategy is most often at the highest levels of authority. Oh, I'm, I'm responsible to create the strategy that I then share with my staff. Well, I better look right here and go, gosh, I've created the wrong strategy. but it gives you this framework to look and go. Well, I think the strategy sound are we operating this thing correctly? Is it placed in order? You know, we do step one, then step two, step three, or are we doing step seven before we do step one and now it's out of order? Is that the cause of the problem?

Jason (2): 27:48

I

David: 27:48

or did I as the authority not, teach well the way this thing is supposed to work? And am I the one that's causing that problem? and then the function part of it, you know, that has to do with, you know, all kinds of different things. you know, my mind right now just went to the financial metrics, like, oh, well my costs are too high, or my expenses are too high, or my, sales price is too low. And, you know, those are all the functional things that have to get sorted out. And then you're back down to, okay, if we make these tweaks, can we produce a profit? so again, I find it to be a framework that you can easily implement and you can easily look back for the weaknesses in the implementation and fix them.

Jason (2): 28:43

write the book? Is there a book, if someone was interested in that framework, that they could go read?

David: 28:48

yes, he did write the book. The book is titled Alignment and, his name is Mark Pifer. I haven't looked for a long number of years. my copy is tattered and torn and written all over. I would guess that you can find the book at Amazon, but I really am not sure.

Jason (2): 29:07

That's interesting. I'm gonna link to it.

David: 29:09

And I'll gladly call him if you don't find it and say, Hey, where can, where can some people get your book?

Jason (2): 29:15

that would be good because we'll link to it in the show notes too, if I get a link on Amazon or wherever they can buy It, the other thing it made me think about, so I, as I shared before we hit record, I've spent my whole career in manufacturing and one of the gurus in manufacturing was the Toyota production system in lean manufacturing. And,

David: 29:33

W Edward Demming.

Jason (2): 29:35

Yeah. And Tao,

David: 29:36

Yep.

Jason (2): 29:37

said, there's a quote that he said that I love, and I've thought about this many, many times, but he said, without a standard there can be no improvement. it sounds so simple, but I don't know how many times I've seen leaders, people trying to figure out how to make improvements. And you go back and you say, you're not following any process or standard,

David: 29:56

Yep.

Jason (2): 29:57

in complete chaos. And so until there's a process, you'll never make an improvement because you might as well be rolling the dice every time you execute. And so like your framework that you talked about, if you're executing that, yeah, maybe not perfectly, but relatively consistently, at least. Then have a standard you're following and then you can go work on improvement. But until you have that, there's, there'll never be an improvement. It's just luck of the draw. So,

David: 30:21

that made me think of another book. you know, that management structure in Japan came from the United States, and after the War w Edward Deming was sent over there, his book

Jason (2): 30:34

Outta the

David: 30:35

of Crisis.

Jason (2): 30:35

I have

David: 30:36

And that, that, that book is hard and dry and tough to read. But man, if you can get through that thing, it is filled with nuggets on. how to make things work.

Jason (2): 30:50

yes. of wisdom. A lot of wisdom in that book. So I definitely would agree. get a cup of coffee and read

David: 30:58

Yep.

Jason (2): 30:58

out of the crisis. So a little bit of a pivot, David, in the, conversation. What are your spiritual disciplines? You're a man of faith. You've been walking with the Lord sounds like all of your adult life. Tell us a little bit about what are the things you do daily, weekly to. To stay strong in your faith and to to grow in your sanctification.

David: 31:17

without a doubt, prayer is, the most important for me in my spiritual disciplines. and, I actively, I. Do that throughout my day. I kind of formalize that a little bit in the morning. Good morning, Lord. I, I am, I am glad to be awake and I'm glad that you're here with me and let's talk about this day. And that one's a little bit more formal, but the reality is, I think the most important spiritual discipline that I have is relational. And that is, there are rarely, and I want to preface this by saying I'm not, I'm not a terribly spiritual guy. Like I don't come across that way, but moment by moment, by moment by moment, I'm very relational with Jesus. And I find myself almost like a close friend, best friend, conversational relationship with Christ. Like, Hey, what do, what do you think about this? have no earthly idea how to handle this phone call that I'm getting ready to have. What would you do? and so that's been a very important part of my adult life, is a familiar, best friend, close friend relationship with a real dependency on Christ. the other thi you know, I'm a pretty avid reader. I read scripture daily. I also am Mostly interested in the topic of our faith walk. And so, you know, my bookshelf is filled with, one Christian leadership book after the other, after the other, or even, you know, the tried and true, Bonhoeffer, you know, how, how did he process life's most difficult things? you know, it's not necessarily a leadership book, but it's Christian living.

Jason (2): 33:15

it is.

David: 33:16

Um, and, you know, sometimes, people might get bored with that topic. for me, it just doesn't happen. Um.

Jason (2): 33:23

for someone like I think about Bonhoeffer and went through. You know, you talked earlier about sometimes we read scripture and we, we acknowledge it with our head, but it takes living life and just struggling through it, you know, to get it deeper and deeper into our heart sometimes. And I know, you know, the books that I've read, I'm trying to think what was his, the book that I read that, I can't remember the title of it now. I think it was his most popular book, and I'm drawing a blank on the title, but it was, was just profound that he was, what he was going through and, you know, as the, the Nazis were coming into more and more power and. His decision to, he was in the US and to go back to Germany, and those are really not black and white decisions that he had to face and pray through and, decide on, you know, how, how he would face that. So, yeah, I love biographies because you learn so much from people who have walked

David: 34:18

Yeah. How, how did they, man, how did they manage the same or even more difficult challenges than the one I'm dealing with right this minute?

Jason (2): 34:26

yeah. What are some, while we're talking about books, what are some other authors that you really have enjoyed and learning from or, that you'd

David: 34:34

well, the, you know, the, the first one's very personal and, um, unfortunately he has passed away. but, the author's name is Jay Keith Miller. And, Keith's first book was A Taste of New Wine. Christian organizations, it's made the list as the most influential books of the 20th century, in the faith, a Taste of New Wine. And he wrote that book in 1963. he went on to write, 25 more books. And, I was fortunate enough to meet him at a moment in my life where, I was in trouble. my heart and head weren't in the right spot, and it was a low moment, and I was having difficulty with, my wife Amy. And, you know, we've been married 33 years. It's the low point in our marriage. I was at a conference in Texas and I was walking across this dirt parking lot, this old man sitting on a rock, and he speaks up and he says, Hey. Are you doing okay? And lo and behold, we, we spent the next 10 years of life together, him mentoring me. And so Keith's books are the most meaningful books to me. Uh, yeah. And they're, you know, they're widely available. And, fascinatingly enough, you know, a book on Christian Living written in 1963 is still, for me, the most seminal book written on how do you live an authentic Christian life. the book still sells widely, today.

Jason (2): 36:10

heard of it. I'll link, in the show notes so, so people can find it.

David: 36:13

And I also read, Andy Stanley and, um, very actively listen to podcasts and, sermon series from him, Tim Keller. you know, who we, who we lost, lost this year?

Jason (2): 36:26

I kind of Tim Keller like in the last year, and I don't, I mean, found him like finally read. I read the book. ministries of Mercy was the first book I read of his, and it was very impactful. And so now I, yeah, I've subscribed to his podcast and read some other of his works and love to hear and read and yeah. Listen, learn from him.

David: 36:48

yeah. And you know, he has some, some great two or three great books out about the marketplace. one of the great things about him as. Just a phenomenal teacher of Christian living and, and how the kingdom of God works. But he also valued the marketplace and, wrote and wrote about it pretty extensively.

Jason (2): 37:10

good endeavor? Was that the,

David: 37:12

That's that, that's the first one that popped in my mind, so, yes.

Jason (2): 37:16

talk to people who are right now kind of leading voices in the faith and work movement. Most of them. Many of them point back to that being an influential book. So I think think he really, God used him to start maybe that movement in some ways. I think so.

David: 37:36

Yeah. And there's another great book that comes to mind from Doug Spota. it's called The Monday Morning Atheist. it's kind of a, you know, clearly a, a title that gets your attention. Uh. but you know, the book is about, how we live our lives on Sunday as believers, and then we show up on Monday, and it's sometimes hard for the world to see the difference. And, you know, one of my favorite parts about that book is, he calls it the Sunday Scaries. it really hits home for me. And that is, you know, we, we finish off a work week. Saturday is a family day, soccer fields and baseball fields and cheerleading camps. And Sunday we go to church and we come home as a family and we're relaxed. But sometime on Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening, our minds start to shift into. Oh crap. I've got this and this and this and this and this that I have to get done tomorrow. And he, came up with this phrase, Sunday scaries. that's the reality of what happens to us as believers. Oh gosh, I gotta go back to work tomorrow. And, this goodness that I feel from my Sunday morning worship is now gone

Jason (2): 39:01

Yep.

David: 39:01

and,

Jason (2): 39:02

sets in and

David: 39:03

yep.

Jason (2): 39:04

been through I have been through that. Yeah. I will link to that one. Those are great examples. Thank you for sharing those.

David: 39:11

my pleasure.

Jason (2): 39:12

another question. Go back in time and think about when you were a young leader and starting off, we all made mistakes, we still do, but I want to, I want you to talk a little bit about something you really struggled with as a young leader you know, have you overcome it, what do you do to manage it? If not, how did you overcome it? Kind of talk about, what, what, what that thing was that you really battled as a young leader.

David: 39:35

Yeah, this, this is a hard one for me. and, and it's fascinating, Jason, because, as I, I think about it, it's actually starting reverse as I age and I'll, talk about it a little bit. So as a, as a young leader, and as a young man, not, not just in a leadership role, but you know, the big sins, ego and pride were. big challenges for me. you know, like, I got this, I can handle this. I have way more energy than that old guy over there trying to solve this thing. And, you know, I think it's true in every generation. Technology keeps changing and changing and changing. Well, you know, as a young man, starting out in the early nineties, I understood the technology of the time better than some of the people that I was working around. And I, I find that that same thing happens. And so ultimately what that came down to was a devaluing of wisdom. Like, I don't need to follow somebody who's already walked 20 miles in these moccasins. I know better. that's really the underpinning of what all of that stuff was as a young leader. I think we are living in a time right now culturally, where, wisdom is devalued in not just leadership roles, but in every role. we live in a time where if I need to know something, all I have to do is pick up my phone. yeah. Hey, hey Google, what's the answer to, you know, whatever. that returns knowledge, but it doesn't return any wisdom. our software business that, we wrapped up and sold at the end of last year, we were already beginning to work on all the concepts of what is happening in ai. And I look at that, not with fear, but I do at it through the lens of, gosh, I already think wisdom has been devalued. This is one step further than that. like, yeah, you know, we, we, copilot or chat GPT for a, an answer to any question, and it writes it in large language and that document comes off of a printer is truth. and so, you know, for me came through as ego and pride problems. as a 58-year-old old man at this point, the reality is I just didn't value wisdom wise people, the people who have gone before me, the people who have walked these paths. you know, with a type A personality, you just run through all of that and, you know, uh, Yeah, I mean, being an entrepreneur, my whole life, I've had to solve those things. So, you know, it's just kick down doors and, break down walls and keep pushing. they didn't always serve me well.

Jason (2): 42:45

I think of a saying, I heard somebody said this several years ago, and I was like, oh, that's so true. But he said, the older I get, the smarter my dad becomes.

David: 42:54

Absolutely.

Jason (2): 42:55

And I was like, yeah, I can remember. You know, that's that, especially that son, father relationship of like, you're 25, whatever you're like, dad, you don't know. I got this all figured out. And know, as you, the get, you realize there's a lot of wisdom there. And you think about people that have passed, maybe even in your family or those you've worked with that you wished you could have went back and, you know, sought some more wisdom from and, um, you know, and had opportunities. There's, I think about conversations that I did have with some older, men earlier in my career that were. Very, very helpful cause I struggled with the same thing, you know, it's just, why would I ask? I got this figured out. I have all the answers and now you see as in at our age, you'll look and see some younger men going through that same thing and you're like, I'm here to help if you need it, but I can't, I can't force you to ask. You gotta fall bit, you know, and on their face sometimes, unfortunately. But.

David: 43:51

I'm in that transition right now from business owner to startup and the startup is to help others along the way. so I don't operate in this every day. but these challenges with young people, play out. Bad emotions coming out of me. You know, I end up saying, why don't you just listen to me? Don't you understand I've already done this? don't make the same mistake. and that doesn't serve them well, and it doesn't serve me well, and it doesn't serve the kingdom well. But, you know, it's the, the fallen nature of mankind. It's, it's, it's my weakness. It's the thing I have to keep going back to and work on and, find where that is in my story. You know, what, why is this part of my story? Why do I respond this way? because in a conversation with you, I'm comfortable saying, Hey, you know what? I was this young man full of pride and ego, and I knew it all. Why would I expect it to be different for someone else? And, so, you know, it's, it's the kind of the cycle of life. And you made me think of it about fatherhood. You know, we as boys, we often look at our fathers as heroes, who they knew the answer to every question before we asked and how every single thing worked. And then we grow a little older and we go, well, he's the dumbest guy on earth. I know more than him. And then we grow a little bit more and we go exactly what you pointed out. Wow. He kind of knew a lot of things. and you know, the only way you get that perspective is to live it out.

Jason (2): 45:38

of the things that comes out in this podcast often is that the importance of having a mentor,

David: 45:46

yes.

Jason (2): 45:46

it again, and I think that's, you would reiterate it. I mean, that's, that's really now your new business that you're starting up is essentially,

David: 45:55

that's it. There's nothing, yeah, there's nothing else that I'm gonna be doing other than mentoring, other people walking through the small business journey and going, let's talk about it. let's work through it. you know, when you're not under the pressure of, our selfish personal dependence on those outcomes, I think that, um, you know, I do have wisdom that I can share with people in a way that's not, it builds them up. And builds, builds the kingdom up. And so, you know, I'm excited and, newly learning and recognizing that, you know, a type a personality that kicks down doors is probably not the best way to mentor someone else. And so it's really fun to be a startup again.

Jason (2): 46:45

yeah. I pray the Lord will use you in that because how rewarding is that to come alongside and help, you know, help other entrepreneurs and business owners when you've been through too and over multiple decades. So you've got a lot you can and help them through that. you and I talked a little bit before I hit record, and we both share a passion to help others in the church, help other believers understand that their work in a secular environment matters greatly to God and to the kingdom, and that we are called to these places of work to honor Christ. not just, I'm gonna steal a little bit from, uh, of my favorite. Authors and podcasters. Jordan Rainer, who I, he was on my show earlier and, you know, and he, and he talks about yes, we should view our work as an opportunity to evangelize. Absolutely.

David: 47:37

Mm-Hmm.

Jason (2): 47:38

should view our work as an opportunity to earn an income and advance the kingdom monetarily. But there's inherent value in our work. things that God has called us to go and be a blessing to those we work with, to restore, to build, to create, to whatever it is that we do, that are, are characteristics of God. And so my question for you is, through your years of work, how did you work and strive to honor Christ in, in your work as a, you know, let's say as a, as a retail manager owner, business owner, and then also as a software startup owner? you with me, when we first had a phone call, but can you share with the audience a little bit, like how did you try to honor Christ in those roles that you had?

David: 48:24

back in Bibles we spent a lot of time in, the New Testament in the book of Ephesians. And, There's kind of a, couple three verses there in chapter four of Ephesians that lays down the various offices within the church. and then provides direct instruction to the pastors and teachers within the church body. And that is their job is to build up the, church family for the purpose of ministry. And, when I read those things newly as a student, it just landed on me absolutely perfectly. and so I processed that through the lens of work and very much realized, I was called by God into the marketplace. and, you know, kind of relating this back Jason, to sometimes being uncomfortable in the church building. you know, one of the things that I think all people, who aren't necessarily on stage, they feel less important

Jason (2): 49:35

Right,

David: 49:36

when in reality we are out there to do the work of ministry. Well, the, the work of ministry is to build the kingdom of God. The work of ministry is to love, Christ's. sons and daughters well to love creation. Well, I wrapped my head around that pretty deeply. And, uh, you know, we operated our company, really every day for the last 20 years with the idea, the concept that our work is extremely important. That every opportunity we have to talk to a customer, to talk to a coworker, to, talk to a supplier or a vendor or a partner. Those were all opportunities to represent Christ in the work of ministry. And, uh, so, so we taught that to people as they started to join our company, over the last 20 years. And, um, you know, we were, I. In some ways, bold. you know, my wife and I decided, that, we were willing to take some risks. And so during the interview processes, we, talked about our faith openly and said, you know, we are, not just Christians, but we operate a Christian business. And this business is built to develop the kingdom of God. And the kingdom of God is important to us because of, you know, the foundational building walks of our faith. you know, maybe the most outward appearance of that was, every Monday morning for 20 years, we hosted a, a. Monday morning prayer meeting, and it was, you know, think of it kind of like an intercessory type prayer, where we collectively as a team prayed for our company, but we also prayed for one another. and when you operate in close quarters with people and you learn that, husbands and wives are struggling, or children are causing problems, or they have financial woes, or, you know, all the issues that we are faced with in life, and you intentionally pray about those in your workplace, it makes all the difference. so, I am passionate about the importance of work. Being part of God's kingdom and building up the people who work in the marketplace, with that kind of thinking.

Jason (2): 52:05

when we talked on the phone, I think I asked this question, but you said that was a voluntary, the prayer meeting was voluntary. Everybody in the company was How, what percentage of employees typically participated in that?

David: 52:17

You know, it's interesting. I, I would say a small percentage, consistently, somewhere around 10, 15% consistently. But over time, everyone,

Jason (2): 52:30

Yeah. Came in or out.

David: 52:31

yeah, because the fascinating thing is even for nonbelievers, when their back is against the wall, they say, Hey, I've got this big problem. Will you pray for me? And so, you know, it was always fascinating and always a joy that somebody who had never attended, showed up to a Monday morning prayer call because they had a concern that they wanted to prayed for, and we love that. and so,

Jason (2): 53:00

example. And I think not I, not everybody probably can do that. You were a business owner and you were able to, to do that. I, I can remember one time I had, a manager I worked for, and we worked in a large company. I. Fortune 500 company. He was a believer. And, him and I would meet every Friday, just him and I in his office, and we'd pray for work related things, you know, people that we

David: 53:22

Mm-hmm.

Jason (2): 53:23

we prayed for our company, you know, for wisdom for those that were, CEO level top levels of the company for our bosses. And was the I had ever done that with somebody at work. And I was like, you know, this is good. This

David: 53:36

This is good.

Jason (2): 53:37

I bring, you know, the love of Christ in the workplace like that and care for those people in that way.

David: 53:43

Yep.

Jason (2): 53:43

that was a really great experience and helped. Yeah. God, God was teaching me a lot through that, so,

David: 53:48

Yeah, I think that's an important example that you just shared.

Jason (2): 53:52

so David, last question to wrap things up here. I always ask everybody, what do you hope would be your legacy when you, when the Lord calls you into, let's say, full-time retirement, but even the, you know, the people you've worked with in the prior two businesses, what do you hope's your legacy that people remember, you and your wife, about?

David: 54:10

at, at 58 years old, I really am thinking a lot about that whole concept of what, what is my legacy? and, it is my true desire and belief that many people that worked for us over the last 35 years, would say, well done. Good and faithful servant. you know, we, we have. A library of stories, about, a young man who joined us. he was with us for a couple of years. I met his mom for the first time and his mom called me aside and said, Hey, hey David, I just wanna thank you. because we were so concerned about our son who was starting to, we thought, get a little off course, and now he's back in his faith and he's going to church and he's pursuing Christ. And you know, that story played out as, you know, the, that family, they've been happily married now for 15 years. They have two children. They're raising them in the church and raising them in Christian education. And those are the kinds of stories that really matter to me. You know, the, the flip side is, you know, there are, five examples that I'm aware of, of people who came through our company, went on to start their own businesses, and, in those five cases, they all created multi multimillion dollar companies, that are employing thousands of people. And, I hope that part of the legacy was, that there are principles within business that create profit, and if you do them right, you can go out and duplicate this and create bigger companies than ours and bigger opportunity. And I have a feeling, because I'm still relational with some of those people, a little bit of my, My faith views have rubbed off on them, even if they're not all in believers. know, those are the important legacies for me.

Jason (2): 56:19

as we faithfully live out what Christ has called us to in the workplace, love others, care for others, operate the business well,

David: 56:29

mm-Hmm,

Jason (2): 56:30

ours is to be faithful. The outcome is that's in his hands. Right? And, blessed in those that I've had the circumstance too, where somebody I worked with eventually came to know the Lord, him and his family. They come to our church now. They got baptized there, they're walking with the Lord. That's amazing to be a part of that, the vast of the time, that's not the outcome, but that you can at least know that you, you know, were faithful in your work and helped others to, to, to grow in their career and love them well. And, you know, had, conversations that sometimes were difficult, but we're done in love and all those things that I think believers need to do when they're in, when they're in roles of leadership. So that's, that's

David: 57:08

No question. Yeah,

Jason (2): 57:10

Well, brother, I appreciate your time today. I know you're super busy. I think, uh, this is a amazing story that, God has used, you and your wife to impact these people over these several decades. So I can't wait to publish it. And, uh, thank you, thank you for being willing to, to be a part of the, the show.

David: 57:26

it's been my joy. Thanks, Jason.

Yeti Nano & Logitech BRIO: 57:28

And thank you again for joining me to hear from another leader who loves God and loves people and is working to show this love in their workplace. pray, you will join me again next month. As we continue to see what God is doing in and through other leaders.