Understanding Work's True Purpose with David Bahnsen

In this episode of the Biblical Leadership @ Work podcast, host Jason Woodard welcomes David Bahnsen, Managing Partner and Chief Investment Officer at the Bahnsen Group.

The conversation delves into Bahnsen's career journey, his role in managing a wealth management firm, and his involvement in various media as a contributor and host. They further explore the fundamental beliefs about work presented in Bahnsen's new book 'Full Time Work and the Meaning of Life', discussing the inherent value of work beyond its economic benefits, the theological underpinnings of work as a calling, and the cultural shift in attitudes towards work. The episode also addresses the issue of work-life balance, critiques the prosperity gospel, and challenges common misconceptions about retirement, wealth, and ambition from a biblical perspective.

Additionally, they touch upon the upcoming Work-Based conference Bahnsen is involved in, aimed at merging business leadership with Christian values. Bahnsen shares his core leadership principles and offers advice for new leaders, advocating for resilience, conviction, and the importance of mentorship in the workplace.

Full-Time book website
David on LinkedIn
Bahnsen Group website
Works Based Conference
Crisis of Responsibility Book 

Transcript

Jason: 0:00

welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast. I'm your host, Jason Woodard. This month, I am very excited to introduce our guest, David Bahnsen. David is the Managing Partner and Chief Investment Officer at the Bahnsen Group. His firm oversees 4 billion in client assets. David is a contributor the Wall Street Journal, and National Review. He's also a frequent guest on CNBC, Fox Business, Bloomberg TV, Fox News, and The World and Everything in It podcast, which is where I first heard him. He hosts the Capital Record podcast, where he interviews some of the nation's top business leaders, entrepreneurs, and financial commentators to discuss economics, markets, and the culture. David is also an author of multiple books, including one that he just released. That is primarily what we're here to discuss and that book is called full time work and the meaning of life So david brother, thank you so much for being on the show. It is truly an honor

David: 0:58

Well, thank you for having me and thank you for the very kind words. It's wonderful to be with you.

Jason: 1:02

Hey david before we dive into the book. I'm curious. Um, can you talk a little bit about? What you're doing now professionally for those that don't know. And then how did, how did the Lord kind of guide you into that role through, give us a summary of your career, maybe a little bit about your educational background.

David: 1:18

Uh, sure. So I, uh, run a wealth management firm called the Bahnsen Group. Uh, we run about five and a half billion dollars. and prior to this, I ran a wealth management practice at Morgan Stanley, which is a large, uh, Wall street investment bank. And I, left almost 10 years ago to start my own firm. and so I've been in the wealth management space for about 25 years. and our offices, uh, we have seven offices around the country, but I spend most of my time going back and forth between our office in Newport beach, California. And New York city. And so my wife and I have gone back between the two spots. we have houses in both places and we go back and forth every month for over seven years. So I spent a lot of time on an airplane, but, it's definitely a bi coastal endeavor and, then we've added offices in Nashville, Austin, Minneapolis, Phoenix, uh, and Bend, Oregon. And so. It's a full time gig.

Jason: 2:19

And this is something that you've been involved in essentially since you finished your education.

David: 2:23

Well, I, um, I got into this field when I was 27 years old and I, had been managing Christian music artists since my father passed away. And so I, ended up selling that business and wishing all the musicians I worked with all the best, but more or less vowing to never talk to another musician again. I've more, more or less kept that vow.

Jason: 2:49

That is a, that's a big career transition.

David: 2:51

I could go on for hours, but it was, right time in both situations for the endeavor I went into and the endeavor I moved into.

Jason: 2:58

One of the ideas that you put forward in the book, and I'm a quote, is that work itself is inherently good, even when separated from utilitarian or pragmatic ends. Can you talk a little bit more about the theology behind that idea, David?

David: 3:12

Yeah. I think that sentence is a great summary. I do not believe that work is important only for its instrumental benefits. Work is an instrument to daily provision. we do get paychecks and from those paychecks pay bills. we do get, compensated and from that compensation give to our church. for those who are compensated well enough, we might even be able to be more charitable. And, as the Lord has blessed me more and more in my business life, I've been able to fund Christian schools and do other things, with giving. And generosity that I think are wonderfully important, but I do not think they are the point of the work. those transactional benefits that flow from the work cannot be used as the basis for rationalizing the work itself. The work doesn't need rationalizing because the work itself is what God actually created us to do. We are all here caring for the garden, if you will, and cultivating it. That's it. And, we were made to do this, before sin entered the world at work was, our very calling and purpose. And that continues to this day, even as God redeems us to

Jason: 4:28

Yeah. One of the other authors that, uh, you and I talked briefly before I hit record, and I mentioned, he recently wrote a book as well on the biblical mandate to work. And he talks about the first commission, in addition to the great commission, not saying the great commission isn't great, but the first commission was to work and to be fruitful and to multiply and to subdue the earth. I saw a lot of that same. Writing in your book as well. one of the ideas that you really pushed back on in your book, is that we need to suppress our career ambitions. And disengage from finding any kind of identity in our work. So, I mean, that was something you really pushed back on that mindset. And then yesterday, I read an article in the wall street journal, and it was titled Americans don't care as much about work. And it isn't just Gen Z. And I wanted to quote one thing they said, and it was the staff that they had in there. And that is, 24 percent of respondents to a Pew survey said their job or occupation was very important to their identity. So 24 percent in 2021, 17 percent did. So in later surveys, collaborate this finding. Now, I think. That these mindsets have crept into the church a little bit, and I really appreciated you speaking out against those, this anti work bias that we have allowed to seep into our mindset. And I say ours as the church body. So I'd like for you to kind of extrapolate a little bit on that or talk a little bit more about your thoughts on that and why it's. It's very destructive. It's a very destructive mindset.

David: 5:53

Yeah. And I guess I'm probably even a little bit more negative than that because I don't know that. I think it's creeping into the church. I think it's taken over the church and I think it's been there a long time. like, I think a lot of the, what you read in the wall street journal, that's creeping into society. reading things in the Atlantic about people working too hard, that's creeping into pop culture. But what's been pretty heavily permeated in pulpits has been that message on steroids for a long time. And so my point I make in the book is, you know, we've all heard the sermon. Some of us have heard it countless times, some version of, Hey, you know, are you Are you sure you're not working too much? are you appropriately balancing, the things that you have to do at work with all these other important things in your life? and how many sermons have we ever heard about? Are you sure you're not spending too much time at home? Are you sure you're not, um, ignoring your responsibilities for, performing at a high level in your vocational calling. I think that the church has been struggling with different versions of this for a long time. And so there's a lot of problems in our society that I view as the culture going astray and the church kind of following. And in this case, I think it's worse. I think the church is sometimes even leading in a negative way.

Jason: 7:11

Do you think, David, that the first idea we talked about, this problem of seeing work as just a means to an end, a very pragmatic, kind of necessary evil, do you think that that then leads to why would I put any more effort into work? Why do I got to do my work with excellence? Why do I have to work any more than I should? Need to type of mindset. Do you think the one comes before the other?

David: 7:34

Yeah, I do. I, but I gotta be honest. I think a lot of it is generational. that I think there is a Uh, a sense in which baby boomers worked really hard, but portrayed a belief that the hard work was so that they could retire. And they messaged to millennials, uh, the idea that the purpose of work was to not have to do it anymore. And within, within the church, I, I make an argument that there's a deeper theological explanation that, out of the early 20th century. the church was dealing with, fundamentalism and a pietism and a cultural retreatism that was largely the, the chosen, antidote to, modernism and liberalism and Darwinism and other bad things that were happening in the early 20th century. And I don't think that it went really well for the church. So in a lot of ways, we've spent the last 40 years in the church. undoing some of that retreatism saying, Hey, we are not happy with the results of Christians being out of politics. And so they're reengaging in the civic realm. And I think that's a good thing. And we're really not happy with Christians being out of education. And all of a sudden they've created this really robust homeschool movement and Christian school movement. And I mean, you're talking about millions and millions of people. That have come into different alternate, engagements with education. But in the marketplace, they were just totally unprepared for the concept of influence and dominion in commercial society. And I think that, where the faith and work movement kicked in 20 plus years ago, it was largely to just sort of sprinkle on top. of various positions of achievement that Christians and evangelicals had achieved in their work. It was to sort of sprinkle on top, you know, some tools for evangelism and things like that. Soul saving.

Jason: 9:36

in in the workplace Yeah,

David: 9:38

in the workplace. but never to actually teach, the idea that our efforts in technology or agriculture or manufacturing or finance or entrepreneurialism or media or what have you were inerrantly important as kingdom work. And that's, to me, The task that we have to take on

Jason: 9:57

that's key. That's like at the root of it. I think David. What's your response to those who would say? Well, what about workaholics and people that work too much and sacrifice their family? I mean, you spoke of that, I think, really well in the book. I'd like to get your thoughts on it here a little bit.

David: 10:14

Yeah. You know, I, I think that it can happen. I, the first thing I would say is I don't think it happens very much. And so I hate to set normatives and biases and. predominant lines of thinking around things that are the exception, not the rule. In some cases, it flat out is almost equivalent to giving a whole sermon to warn people about the dangers of tidal waves in Kansas. when I look at the state of Young men in the culture, prime working age men that right now have the same, level of employment that they did in the great depression. only we have almost fully employed society now. Okay. So the difference is people voluntarily removing themselves in between the ages of 29 and 54 years old from the labor participation force. So they don't show up as unemployed because they're not employed or looking for work. Therefore they're not unemployed. That is a major sociological trend where the labor participation forces has shrunk by 14 million people in the last 16 years. And the prime area in which it is shrunk is in a prime working age demographic and the females are no lower than they were. It's entirely

Jason: 11:36

Men. Yeah.

David: 11:37

giving a sermon about that man who's workaholic, I just find to be very bizarre. if someone wants to give me a sermon, About how to behave well when I'm in the locker room with my NBA teammates Then I'll take the sermon to heart, but I gotta be honest I don't think i'm going to make an NBA team anytime soon So it would be a really silly sermon to give because it doesn't apply to my context Now all that to say obviously there are people that could treat their work as an idol And the point I make, and I have a whole chapter about this in the book, as you know, is that God is against all idolatry. Not merely the idol of work. I don't believe there's that many people, that make work their idol, but I think there are people that avoid their family. But what is the sin in that construct? Is the sin The working too hard or is the sin ignoring one's family and the way I phrase it to someone is pretend You're a believer and you have a friend who's not a believer and they have a significant problem with drugs And then they become a Christian and you say to them, you know, you got to quit doing the drugs. Now, this is part of a life of discipleship of new faith. This, this old habit has to go. And everyone would say, of course, you know, this guy's become a Christian needs to put aside the womanizing or the drug abuse or something like that. I go, okay, now I want you to pretend you have an unsaved friend. And he works at a private equity company or a law firm and he works really hard and he's so good at what he does He's committed. He's dedicated and now he becomes a christian. What does he have to get rid of now? Maybe his motivations need to change maybe his tithing habits need to be nourished and developed maybe you know, some of the bedside manner and how he does his job might be a little different But do we need to tell him or her to get rid of their old life? But see, we treat it like they do. We treat it like, like the drug problem for an unbeliever and the work problem are the same thing. But they're not. So I'm against anyone ignores their family because I'm against ignoring one's family. I'm not against ignoring one's family because I'm against work.

Jason: 13:53

One of the things that you talked about also in the book, David, and has, helped me, in my thinking, and you, you already hit on this, but again, that labor participation rate and that, that, you know, that whole, uh, and I'm gonna quote one of what, one of the statistics you were just talking about, but that was the, the work rate for Prime age men in this last decade is lower than it was in the Great Depression. And you, again, you just said that, but I think people really need to understand. that's real right now. that's how bad it is. What would you say that that means for those of us that are hiring managers? I think about myself in this. So I'm responsible for a team and a workplace. A lot of my podcast audience is their business leaders across a variety of industries. And we have, A decade or two or three ahead of us probably in which we're going to be trying to recruit and retain people. I think that what we used to do in the last 20 or 30 years to do that has to dramatically change because of this fact that one of the other statistics that you presented was that if the labor participation rate. Was the same now as it was in 2000, there would be 10 million more people out in the workforce. I live in Michigan. That's the population of my entire state. Every man, woman, and child. They vanished from the workforce in 20, 24 short years. how do we, uh, Approach hiring and recruiting practices now differently than we have in the past. I mean, you just don't, there's 10 million less people out there and it's not going to change anytime soon. I don't think, I don't know if you see a time in the next 10 years that it's going to dramatically get better.

David: 15:31

Well, the cultural phenomena that will have to drive people back to work is just that it's a cultural phenomena. number one issue here and it requires me to explain it a little bit so people don't misunderstand. But people have to feel shame.

Jason: 15:49

Yeah.

David: 15:50

There's no shame in it right now.

Jason: 15:52

There's pride. I think there's pride in it.

David: 15:55

absolutely. And, and so it was the subject of my very first book, which was called crisis of responsibility, our cultural addiction to blame and how you can cure it. And it was about the financial crisis of 2008. And I made the point that it wasn't just that we had a moment in which millions of people who could afford to keep paying for their house, Chose to give the keys back for their house. It was that we had millions of people who did that and didn't feel any shame about it at all. They could go to the bar on Friday night and brag about it. And I think that was a really, really sudden and awful shift in the culture. From like in the great depression, you had a very high amount of unemployment. But people paid their bills and they felt shame and being unemployed even when they shouldn't, when it wasn't their fault, when they were trying their best, when they were waiting in bread lines, when they were waiting for day labor and manual labor. But there was this sense of pride, like a man pays his bills. A man gets up and goes to work. And we got to a point where that, fabric is torn apart. So yeah, there's economic things that will change. There's just various paradigmatic shifts that will happen. you know, we, we live off of a certain borrowed prosperity to a certain degree in a lot of ways. But fundamentally the culture will have to get to a point where it's just unacceptable for a 32 year old to act like a child,

Jason: 17:24

I pray that, that, that we see that in our lifetime. I just, again, I fear I've probably got 15, 20 years of high level engagement of working and I think that until I I'm out of the workforce at the level I'm at now. I won't use the term retire anymore. After I read your book, I'm thinking differently about that. We'll talk about that in a minute, but I, you know, I think that that's just going to be a, you have to look at things very differently as a hiring manager and someone who's responsible for recruiting and retaining people. It's just, it's very different. And I work in manufacturing and so I'm dealing with trades and the trades graph and all the, fun stuff that comes along with the fact that we've gutted our trade schools for the last. 20 years and now nobody knows how to do that. And, you know, we have these huge gaps and what we're willing to bring people on and pay and who's out there and can do it, or even wants to do it. I can tell you stories about, you know, bringing kids in on an apprenticeship program, they had a full ride basically with us. And they lasted four or five, six weeks and said, nah, it's not for me and walked out you have one chapter devoted to money and ambition. Yeah. Uh, I think the church, we tend to see two extremes. I think, again, this is my perspective, uh, David, But, uh, yeah. I see that we tend to be there, we think there's a hyper focus on money and wealth, which can lead to the prosperity gospel, which is an absolute false teaching, that creeps into the church. I won't say it's in the church because I believe that's outside of, orthodoxy and it's not a true church, but that, you know, impacts, uh, Christians. And then the other extreme is being fearful. Of wealth and ambition, because we don't want it to become an idol, but it's just this, almost this, stay away. I can't even allow some motivation internally of, Hey, you know what, I do want to build wealth and yes, to provide for my family, but. To also provide for the kingdom work and to build bigger businesses and to build healthier businesses and to sustain that work that has that inherent value that you've already talked about.

David: 19:14

Yeah, I'm vehemently opposed to prosperity gospel. What's interesting is that it is usually set up as, uh, there's people who don't understand the importance of money. And then there's people that understand money too much or think money's too big a priority. And I don't think that the error of the prosperity gospel is that they put too much of a focus on money. It's just that what they believe, it simply ain't true that there is this embedded promise in scripture that God wants you to have these different things. there is a high level, incentive structure that one who lays in bed all day will go poor and one who works hard will not. but there is, market pricing, you know, one could work very, very hard as a philosophy professor. And they're subject to the subjective values that exist in terms of taste and preferences and market worth. that is, is a by product of an organically created price discovery system and supply and demand. And then one can create a new hit movie with Brad Pitt and they're going to, I think, probably make a little more money than the philosophy teacher. And neither of those things have anything to do with, that the Brad Pitt movie is more valuable than a philosophy professor. It has to do with economic pricing, and the prosperity gospel kind of acts as if price discovery doesn't exist and that God has revealed a certain will that he has never revealed. But what I, what I go to great lengths in chapter five of the book to point out is that the bulk of the people that are talking about, you know, look, you really shouldn't be going to work to, to climb the ladder, make more money, that the bulk of people who say it are saying it in what is charitably called a pharisaical context, that they are doing so from the vantage point of being in a position of some degree of economic comfort. Freedom. Now, their conveniences may not be yachts and Mercedes and private planes and things like that, but they have achieved a certain status that affords them the lifestyle they want to have, and then have decided anything above that lifestyle is magically the point at which it becomes sinful or problematic. That is not the way it works. get to set your own baseline. Um, if one believes material success and earthly comforts are inerrantly sinful, which is not historically, the belief in Christian theology and certainly not in the Protestant tradition, but if one believes those things are wrong, they don't become wrong at the level. number of 93, 000 a year, you know, that, 200, 000 is wrong, but, uh, 94, 000 is okay. Or something of that nature. the notion of what passes for financially excessive is very different geographically as well. most poor people around the world would be utterly mystified by these conversations. That, it is, wrong to be working for and, and trying to achieve a greater life for oneself is not a memo. that most people have gotten. The people who come up with that are generally doing so divorced from a worldview that actually provides a standard. Well, the standard in scripture is that we never under any circumstances forfeit our gratitude. And forget blessings come from. But that there is a dollar amount that is okay and a dollar amount that is not okay is not a verse in my scripture. So the prosperity gospel should be rejected because it, affirms things that are utterly unaffirmable. But phariseeism should be avoided because Jesus rebuked it time and time again.

Jason: 23:01

I really appreciated the example you gave in that chapter on that that you know What's that magic number because I I've probably been guilty of it I know I've been in those conversations where it's like well in in essence, you know people that make whatever upper upper middle class That's okay but Boy, these people that are X, that's not, well, that's Y, you know, again, it's inherently where their heart is, not necessarily a number. So I appreciated that, uh, rebuke.

David: 23:28

I will say, I will say this too. What's interesting is a lot of the people that believe like a billion dollars of wealth is excessive and perverse, and they might have a couple million dollars. And what's really interesting is how much naivete there is. When you look at the very small number, it's a few thousand people in the world that have a billion dollars or more of net worth. And if one wants to believe it's wrong to have ever accumulated it, I think it has to be wrong to have accumulated it if you did something wrong to accumulate it. I think there's a lot more people that accumulated 5, 000 the wrong way than there are who accumulated 5 billion the wrong way. we can pretend that we're down on people just for having a billion dollars that we want. But you know, if people want to be really clear about it, the Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos have not been motivated by money. For a very long time now you could disagree with what they're motivated by and oftentimes It could be very narcissistic and delusional But like if you look at musk as an example, he's not a person I particularly like or dislike. I don't really care But let's just be clear I mean he had achieved enough money to live more than any very very few people would ever have when paypal sold And he believed that carbon and, fossil fuels, from combustion engines was a threat to the planet. And he created Tesla from which he obviously made tens of billions of dollars. but his motive was this massive climate objective. And then what is the deal with SpaceX? He wants to have people occupy other planets. And what's the deal with Twitter? He wanted to defend free

Jason: 25:09

Yup. Yup.

David: 25:10

Like this is hardly like I want to get a new Mercedes type of stuff, or show off a new beach house. there's a certain, aspiration for truly gifted entrepreneurial people that I have absolutely no interest in putting a handcuff on. Let alone making up a pharisaical interpretation of scripture to do so. these are people that are creating significant wealth for society. And I think anyone being honest knows that the reason that they're demonized is rank covetousness. It needs to stop.

Jason: 25:42

appreciated the challenge. it was good to think through and your, arguments are clear and the right, uh, another controversial topic that I really appreciated and it's helping me to change my own thinking. I mentioned this a little bit earlier. I'm going to quote, one of the things that you said is the American ideal of retirement. And so you said, and I quote, If public posturing and marketing campaigns are to be believed, the modern purpose of work can be defined thus. Work is what you do so that eventually you won't have to do it anymore. And then you said, no thanks. So I would like to talk a little bit about that because I will say, David, I think absolutely, especially as believers, that we should not have that mindset, but also, and I think you addressed this really well in the book, is that we also understand, I think people do understand that there is probably a certain level of performance. That you can achieve in your 40s and 50s and maybe 60s and maybe 70s in a certain field that you won't continue to be able to achieve, especially again for my, my brothers and sisters at work in the trades, right? I mean, if you're a millwright and a pipe fitter, okay, you're probably not going to do that into your 80s. But if you do. God bless you. But even for those of us that are in administrative functions, I think you really talked really well about how to think about that. So I want to just, I want to hear your thoughts on retirement and why we have a broken, a little bit lazy, maybe I'd call it lazy mindset towards that, because it also goes in the face of what we said earlier, that work has inherent value. And if it does, we shouldn't be working to avoid working. you

David: 27:20

Well, but see, that's the whole point is that it comes down to mentality. And so as I've gone around the country, since the book came out speaking on this, and I've done, you know, well over a hundred interviews and podcasts and whatnot, it's a perfectly fair question, but I do proactively address it in the book. I'm not saying that the construction worker who's out in the hot sun for 40 years working, that when they're 78 years old, they should still be doing that exact same level of work. Perhaps it does morph into something that's more supervisory, something more consultative and maybe their physical capacity continues to allow certain things. Maybe it does not. There's gotta be an agent stage. Flexibility the principle is all I'm caring about here And the principle is exactly you just said that it we do not approach work with the mentality that the purpose of it is To not do it anymore and the notion that we are trying to get ourselves to a point of achieving a 25 year Vacation, um, removal from productive activity. Now, someone says I can no longer chase down bad guys. I was a, uh, a street cop and I can't go chase down hooligans. I think that is perfectly acceptable, understandable mentality. Maybe they wanna consult for a private security company. Maybe they wanna mentor cops or be involved in the training and development program. I don't know the nuances of what goes into that law enforcement aspect, but there's very, very few industries, very few where there's no role.

Jason: 29:01

Yeah.

David: 29:02

for the people who have the most experience and expertise in the work. And so the general principle is just simply not evolving into a life where there is no longer any useful activity. And so the most common retort is people saying they agree with me. But then I got to be careful because they go, no, no, no, no, no. I agree. I don't want to just be golfing all day long. That's why I volunteered for this board. We have a board meeting every quarter. I go work at my church, Saturday mornings or something. And I, I say, okay, I don't want to talk you out of nice charitable service. Hopefully you're, they're getting some value out of what you're doing and hopefully it's filling your cup a little, but you know, trying to sprinkle a little bit of nice sounding virtuous activities on top of a life of jet setting and golfing and whatnot. That's not really what I mean either, because the problem is. That person doesn't have any idea what they're doing, building orphanages in Mexico. What they knew was that they were practicing law for 40 years and now they're not. And why do we want them not mentoring young lawyers or coming in the office a couple of days a week and providing a little oversight? So I think that the point I make in the book is that it hurts them to be removed from a position of useful activity. It hurts me. As a Gen X er running a business that we have this lack of leadership and seniority across various industries and sectors of the economy as we lose 10, 000 baby boomers a day. Out of the workforce, but then it hurts Gen Z and Gen Y, especially Gen Z, who is, being deprived of grownup mentorship and senior veteran leadership.

Jason: 30:56

I will give you a very specific example of where I see this. And I think you did a really good job of that last point saying you by leaving the workforce have deprived others coming in of learning from you. And oh, by the way. You got to learn from somebody else when you came in. So just don't forget that. And so I have right now, in the facility that I work, we have our youngest apprentice is 20, I think he's 22, 21, 23, he's young. And we have a gentleman who works part time for us, who. Came through the trades, knows multiple trades. He's the guy is unbelievably knowledge, but he works three days a week and he's, older than me. you could retire, but he comes in and works and helps and supports us. And I love it when I see him work with that young apprentice, because I'm like, literally every minute he's working with this young guy. he's learning so much more than anything. He's going to go, he does his schoolwork. He does all that. That's important, but it makes me feel happy every time I walk by those two. It really does see those guys talking. there is a conference coming up that you're involved in, At the end of June, this podcast will release Lord willing on June 1st is my plan. And I think it's exciting to see things like this start to come around. I think there's some momentum in this movement, I'll call it. And so would you like to talk David a little bit about that? Uh, the work based conference and what's going on there, what's going to be discussed and we'll link to it in the show notes and let people know how they can, how they can go if they'd like to.

David: 32:29

well, sure. I mean, I'm one of the speakers at the conference and I believe that they have a few other, speakers. I know a couple of them that, that are really like minded on the subject, attempting. to plug in resources for business leaders, for business owners, for people that are trying to wrestle with these issues about the theological significance of work. I'm fond of some of the pastors providing leadership into this conference, and I think it's going to be a big event. And so I'm excited to be a part of it. I can't, say exactly what all the other speakers are going to be getting into, but I know that my role, I'm doing a panel and giving a speech and I intend to really unpack, I think the beauty of this message, connected to creational norms, which I think is extremely, uh, important here, theologically.

Jason: 33:19

we'll link to their website where you can learn more about the speakers. a few more questions that are really, they're questions that I asked all my guests. As I told you earlier, this is this podcast. It's really around. Christian business leadership in the workplace. And so I know obviously you're a business leader. You founded your organization. You've been in leadership for a long time. So I have a couple of questions around that I'd like to ask you that we could learn from when you think about leadership, David, In the work that you do, what is your, what's your core model? What's your kind of core principle when it comes to leading, your team and your organization?

David: 33:52

Well, I think that, um, it is a, like many elements of the Christian life. I don't know that it's reducible to a model. I think that there are principles, first principles that I would apply to the way you want to live in a certain sphere and, uh, the way you want to be as a person. And when I think of myself as a leader, in my business. the first principle that always comes to mind is one that most people say they agree with, which is, modeling the things you believe in. not so much talking about what others you want that you're leading to do, but doing those things. it's an important part of leadership to me. That I not adopted do as I say, not as I do approach. I say this with all humility. I have 63 employees in my company and I think 62 of the B I'm counting myself. 62 people I think would say that they view me as the hardest working person at the company. Now I got some really hard workers there, but I, I strive as a leader very much. To model the sacrifice and the output that I want. And there's other areas where I mess up, where I make mistakes, where I'm not modeling what I want to for others. But you know, a leader, I think starts by earning the, respect of others that they want to follow you. And for me, that, respect comes from, living it out yourself, getting in the trenches, getting your hands dirty, not operating in a prima donna ish fashion. another key principle that I really can't say enough about is, conviction. a leader cannot be one who, suffers from, the paralysis of analysis. You have to make decisions. And we live with what Thomas Sowell referred to in Conflict of Visions as, under a constrained vision of society. I don't think we can get things perfect. I don't think we can. That there is economic calculation, available that will help me get everything right. So I accept a margin of error, try to make the best decision I can with the right discernment, the right data, the right, deliberation, but then having conviction and going forward and you pivot when you need to

Jason: 36:18

Yup.

David: 36:18

But this is a huge element of leadership is people that scapegoat people afraid to make a decision. it's not the kind of leadership I think we're called to. And so I feel very strongly that people need to have conviction. And those are a couple of the key components. I could go on and

Jason: 36:33

No, I appreciate that, man. Uh, you're speaking my language, especially on the, well, on both of them, but I am wired to be someone who sometimes shoots first and ask questions later. And it fits me well in operations, but you know, I've told my team many times, like, give me an 85 percent solution. Because I made the mistake I have in team members who are, especially engineers. And I love my engineers that I work with, but they can overanalyze the stuff. Right. And I want all the data and all the inputs. And I ain't got time for that, man. Give me something that's going to get us close, pull the trigger and move to the next thing. So, no, I love that being decisive and, you know, coming up with, coming up with the best information you've gotten and moving on. Hey, uh, and this may tie into what we just talked about, David, but let's say you had somebody who's, a mentee of yours and they came to you and said, Hey David, I just got my first promotion as a team supervisor or department manager. You're not first entry level leadership position. I want to sit down and I'm going to have a cup of coffee with you and get some advice. Like what do I do in my first month on the job? What advice would you give them? What approach?

David: 37:33

Well, again, I mean, those, those things are always hard to answer just because it depends on the situation, the context, the industry, the geography, the type of job, the age and experience of the person. there's just so many different variables. And, you know, I think if someone's coming to me, they probably want micro advice, not macro advice, but from a macro principle, I kind of think I want to write a book on this someday. my, You know, uh, 89 principles of, of, uh, approaching a job or, or business life in general or whatnot, but like, if you're, if someone's just looking for the most high level of macro principles to say, I'm, I'm entering X, Y, Z industry to go do ABC work, any, any words of wisdom. I, it really is, I think about a tenacity and a grit and a resilience. They just, it's a messy world and things don't go the way you want. And it could be a coworker and it could be a customer and it could be a boss and it could be an underling, but just having the ability to overcome the things that don't go the way you want to being flexible to work through tough situations. And I think most people fail because they do not have the fortitude to get through things, not going the way they want. You gotta take a

Jason: 38:47

Yeah, I love the grid idea. It's absolutely true. You just gotta keep coming back for more. Sometimes you just gotta keep coming back for another punch in the face, man, and keep coming at it if you want two last questions for you, brother. anyone else you'd recommend to be able to come on my podcast, someone who's a, you know, just a business leader who loves the Lord and, uh, excels as a leader in the workplace has a couple of decades behind them of experience that they could come and share with others on, uh, good

David: 39:14

Yeah. I mean, obviously I know, I know a lot of business leaders. I'd be happy to put together a few names, ideas. One person, I would just throw out there from a Christian worldview standpoint that I think the world of is my friend, Jerry Boyer. I don't know if you've had him before or not. He wrote a book, that really exegetes, much of the new Testament brilliantly, economically called the maker and the takers and Jerry's, consultancy firm, Boyer research, Is, on retainer at my firm because we use them for a lot of shareholder engagement we do. but Jerry's been, doing some of these types of business initiatives in corporate America for 30 years. And, is a really effective and worldview minded believer. I can't say enough good stuff about Jerry and his work.

Jason: 39:58

Thank you. No, I appreciate that. I really do. last thing is, what's the best way for people to follow you, get in touch with you? I mean, you're all over out there, which is great. Every time I'll say this, David, literally, and I mean this every time I hear you speak, or I write what you have written. And I really mean that you have helped me in a lot of ways around financial, economic data, just cultural So what's the best way for people to follow along and learn from you?

David: 40:23

Well, first of all, that's extremely kind of you. and I really appreciate it. That encourages me a lot. I think just for simplicity sake, I'll direct people to the books website because it's such an easy web address, full time book. com. book, all one word. com and then from there it has links to other stuff on my investment writing and you know, other, resources and whatnot that I have out there, but it also just will give people a lot of great content around the book, audio clips, video clips, reviews, articles, different things about this message about work and the meaning of life. And so full time book. com. And from there, there's, uh, other, you know, ways to stay in touch.

Jason: 41:07

Yeah, and I'm going to link to as many of those as I know about in the show notes so people can follow along. And yeah, I know you're on, you have your own podcast, you host another podcast, so and Dividend Cafe and all that. So we'll get that out there. Hey, thank you, David. Man, again, what an honor that you said yes to come on my show. a couple of brothers, that I go to church with are world and everything in it, faithful listeners. And when I told them That you said, yes, they're like, are you serious? David Bahnsen, man, what's your show becoming? So just, uh, not a lot to me. So thank you for it. And I can't wait to get this out there. It'll come out on June 1st and hopefully be helped to people. Please go buy the book. It's a great book. I read it within a week. Absolutely impactful. So thank you, David. Appreciate it, man.

David: 41:52

Well, thank you very much. Much appreciated.

Yeti Nano: 41:54

And thank you all for tuning in once again, to hear from a thought leader who is helping us all to more purposefully work and lead for God's glory and the advancement of his kingdom. I look forward to being back together again next month. Until then may God bless you in your work for his glory.