Transcript
[0:00] Music.
Introduction
[0:09] Back to It's an Inside Job podcast. I'm your host, Jason Liem.
Now, this podcast is dedicated to helping you to help yourself and others to become more mentally and emotionallyresilient so you can be better at bouncing back from life's inevitable setbacks.
Now, on It's an Inside Job, we decode the science and stories of resilience into practical advice, skills, and strategies thatyou can use to impact your life and those around you.
Now, with that said, let's slip into of the stream.
[0:37] Music.
[0:44] Well, welcome back to It's an Inside Job. I'm your host, Jason Liem.
Well, I'm glad you could join me at the top of a fresh new week with a new episode.
And so today's episode, we are going to discuss courage, what that means, how does that show up, and how can we use itto create a more resilient and vibrant life, both professionally and privately.
And so So today, to help me to explore the idea of courage, I have a man who calls himself and is known as Mr. Couragehere in Norway.
His name is Svein Harald Røine. He is one of Norway's most recognized motivational speakers.
He is also an author, and he authored a book in 2015, which is called Courageous, Find Your Everyday Courage.
So in our discussion today, Swine Harald will share invaluable insights into embracing our vulnerabilities, enhancing self-esteem, and fostering resilience.
As you will hear in our discussion today, he champions the belief that true courage encompasses not only facing our fears,but also nurturing curiosity about life's challenges and the invaluable lessons that they offer.
We'll delve deep into the significance of storytelling and motivation, not merely as a tool for self-inspiration, but as apowerful means to inspire others, underline the capacity of stories to forge emotional connections.
[2:01] And to resonate with our inherent nature as beings drawn to narratives.
And so without revealing too much more about what we're going to explore and discuss today, I think it's time to slip intothe stream and meet Svein Harodrana, Mr. Courageous.
Alright folks, see you on the other side of this interview.
[2:19] Music.
Meet Svein Harald Røyne
[2:29] My name is Svein Harald Røyne, and I am a public speaker, actually.
That's my main job as per today, as well as a leadership developer and a coach, a leadership coach.
But what I do mostly is to stand on big stages and talk about courage.
[2:57] I'm a father of two grown-up kids, 28 and 26, and they are, of course, the most important things in my life, or humanbeings, or whatever you call it.
[3:10] They are really important to me. I have been working in corporate life for many, many years, but I changed in 2010,and And then I decided I wanted to follow my dream.
And I was inspired by Tony Robbins at an event, a four-day event in London.
And when I saw him on stage, I thought, well, I want to be like him.
So that was something that inspired me.
So now I'm 56 years old, and I couldn't have had a better life, I think.
I think one thing about Anthony Robbins is it shows you where the true ceiling is, how far you can actually go if you havethe passion and such.
And I think the subject you speak about mostly is courage.
And I think that goes to the heart of what this show speaks about, about resilience, equanimity, and well-being.
And I think courage is a building block of that element. I was wondering, maybe you could explain why you choseCourage as your platform that you spoke about.
And obviously, you've authored a book on the subject, too.
[4:31] Yeah, there are two paths to that topic.
[4:36] When I had to leave my corporate job as senior vice president for a large wine corporation, I was at the crossroadand I was considering what am I going to do with my life?
Should I continue in the corporate life or should I actually follow my dream to be the Norwegian Tony Robbins?
So to speak and in order for me to to find out what i wanted to do with my life i engaged a a coach um i called him callhim the inspirator and he he gave me some exercises and tasks and challenges and after i've done those i was reflecting onwhat i what have i actually done and I found out that he had tested my courage.
That was the common thread or that was actually what had happened.
I had done something that was really uncomfortable, something that I never would have done if it hadn't been a challenge.
I had been challenged and it expanded my comfort zone or I like to call it a stagnation zone.
If you stay too long in that comfort zone, it's a stagnation zone.
[6:03] So I understood that what actually had happened is that I had tested my courage.
I had found my courage and I tested my courage.
So that was the first thing that brought me into that subject.
When I also decided that I wanted to be a public speaker and a leadership coach, You know, there are so many people andso hard competition and so, I mean, enormous amount of great people with extensive experience as leaders starting tobecome coaches and public speakers and so on.
And in order to distinguish myself from them, I needed to have a brand and a topic. I had to own a topic.
Owning the Topic of Courage
[6:55] So that it's crystal clear and that separates me.
And when I looked and I browsed and I did some really good research to see what are the other people talking about.
They're talking about lots of topics and how to succeed and so on.
But no one had actually taken the word courage.
They talked about courage as part of something, but they never had put that on top and said, this is my topic. So I said,okay, I'm going to own the word courage in Norway.
And I think I managed that, actually.
[7:35] Now people call me Mr. Courageous, and I call myself Mr. Courageous, or in a different word.
I think if you're both full of your heart and your analytical mind, and you combine those, well, then I think you have avery potent mix.
And that's what I did in order to find out that courage is my top.
Defining Courage
[7:56] And maybe we can also, while we're at it, sort of operationally define courage.
Because, you know, a lot of people think courage is having the bravery to move in, to set aside fear and to push through.And to some extent, that is true.
But I was wondering, can you operationally define how you see courage and to the extent that you speak to it?
What is courage for you? you? For me, courage. You can't be courageous unless you're afraid.
[8:27] So if you don't have fear, you can't be courageous.
So it's not courageous to jump with a parachute if you're not afraid of jumping with a parachute.
It's not courage to stand on the stage in front of 400 people giving a talk if you're not afraid.
[8:44] So if you're not afraid, you can't be courageous. And in English, you have bravery and you have courage.
And somehow bravery, then you're fearless. less but when you are courageous you feel the fear but you do it anyway andthe reason you do it is because you think there is something to gain on the other side of fear there there is something it'sit's like i think when martin luther king said i've been to the mountaintop and i have seen the promised land themountaintop that is the fear and on the other side there is is a promised land so because to just conquer fear if there is noupside on the other side well what's well why should i do it so for me fear and courage they are two parts of the samething.
Courage and Self-Confidence
[9:33] Yeah i mean they're almost like a coin i mean they're both sides of the same coin right and it's just sometimes youhave to flip it you know for me courage has always been associated with self-confidence.
I mean, we all have fears, we all have negative mindsets that pop up depending upon and it can be very situational.
But I think courage from my sort of clinical psychology background requires a level of self-confidence to believe inyourself, to confront the fear and to move through it.
I mean, how do you see courage and self-confidence?
Do you see there is a relationship are they separate entities or does one feed into the other what i talk about is that in orderto find your courage to overcome fear you have to find your confidence and even more important maybe you have to findyour self-esteem.
[10:29] I think when you, there are lots of tools to become more courageous.
But I think the first thing you have to do is to feel that you have this, well, self-esteem, that you are safe in your own body,that you believe in yourself somehow.
Somehow and that is the you know self-confidence that that comes from from great performances that's how you thatthat's how you get confidence but self-esteem of course that is who you are not defined by your performance but more thatyou are valuable as a human being no matter what how how you perform and i think if you can if you can both or do bothto increase your self-esteem and you can work on your self-confidence and that helps you to become courage when you.
[11:32] Meet a situation that yeah that that scares you yeah and just just for our listeners to make sure we we'veoperationally defined self-esteem self-confidence self-confidence is in your your belief that you can accomplishsomething. It can be kind of quantitative.
Self-esteem is how comfortable you are in your skin if you like yourself.
For me, that is very close to what I usually say.
I always say that if I give a good or a bad talk, or if I do something really bad, then my self-confidence goes down.
But my self-esteem does not necessarily have to go down because my self-esteem i i'm still the same person i'm still lovedby my family they don't think that i'm inferior or something else because i didn't do well on one talk or or fucked up in insome respect so so i think this self-esteem self-esteem is extremely important to work on and I think the problem today isthat most.
[12:43] People don't separate between self-esteem and self-confidence.
I think it's one big bulk of the same.
And then that means that if you perform badly, everything goes down.
You get bad self-confidence, bad self-esteem and you believe.
[13:04] Um bad things about yourself you don't think you're worth anything and i think that is a problem for the for youngpeople today they can't separate that they well the society today is of course so performance oriented that everything isabout performance and if you can't separate those things i think that that makes people struggling in their lives much ithink that's such a very salient point you're making, Svein Harald.
You know, I can speak to sort of North Americans, you know, sort of when the lockdowns, those kids that were in highschool and such, and they had to be isolated and they didn't connect with everyone.
I mean, this was a vital time for people to be able to build self-esteem through their peer group, through socialization.
These are key moments.
[13:51] And, you know, you see a lot of kids who are now in their early 20s or or their late teens after the pandemic, theydon't know how to socialize.
Again, I speak of generalities and not specific individuals.
They don't know how to socialize. It's not because they're weak or anything.
It's just those important years, they were not there to establish.
And we look at suicide rates and self-harm and the abuse of drugs and alcohol have gone through the roof, at least inNorth America.
And and i i think your topic of courage and facing our fears and the ability to have self-worth are such pertinent topicsand to speak about that and today that's what i want to kind of get in nuts and bolts with you to understand the mechanismfrom your perspective how people can take some of your wisdom and your knowledge and experience and apply it to theirown lives because i think I think that is so important, what you said.
We are so performance driven that we mistakenly and unintentionally but mistakenly link our self-worth, our level of self-esteem to our performance.
Yes. Sometimes we need to understand that performance, as you've articulated already, sometimes we're going to flop andwe're going to fail.
[15:07] Sometimes you know we've talked ad nauseum on this podcast but failure and mistakes they she is they are the bestteachers if someone is sitting there and says okay i understand what spinehole is saying and i understand the conversationthey're having but how do i build my self-esteem how do i build my self-worth what do i have to do what would you sayto that question i think one thing that i definitely recommend is that every day every day you should write somethingpositive about yourself you should write it down on paper in a book in a self-esteem book or whatever and that and notabout what's good about yourself with regards to performance more more what is good about myself as a human being.
[16:04] But of course, you can also relate it to performance, that you did good things to other people, that you saw otherpeople, that you were kind.
But I think we write and we have this self-talk that is very dominantly negative.
And so somehow we have to force ourselves to talk positively about ourselves.
But I think as in everything we do in life, if you only think about it, it's not enough.
We have to write it down. I say that if you want to reach a goal, you have to write it down.
If you have dreams, you have to write it down. That's the first step to reach it.
And I think that is the same also with building your self-esteem.
You need to write down what is good about you.
And what, did you do something good?
Have you, have someone said something positive about you? Have you had positive experiences?
Have your, whatever, as much positive as possible.
[17:18] And when you write it down and you do it every day, you build an archive that you can go back to and you can seeand you can read when you are down when you have trouble you can go and and read this book just to to build this self-esteem so i think that is one way to do it i think that's very important because along the lines of just a sort of riff on whatyou're saying is fine you know a lot of the times when i'm talking to people, you know there's i can't remember who'sthere's a quote but you know they say the past is experience experience, the present is an experiment, and the future is anexpectation.
And sometimes when we are in a negative state of mind, we'll look at a past and we'll think of all the failures and then wewill tank our own self-worth.
[18:05] But we can use that same skill, look over our shoulder from the trailhead of where we started to where we cameand how we've built and all the pitfalls that we've overcome and the obstacles that we've mastered and the things thatwe've learned.
Nobody can take that away from you. That is your experience. That is fact.
Nothing can take that away. And if we, as you've just said, look at all the things that we have done, all the positivities thatwe add to the world or what we've heard about ourselves, this can build us, right?
And I completely concur with you.
Depending upon what we think is what we see is what we pick out in the environment because everything is out there inthe environment.
But how we filter what we say to ourselves and what I hear you saying is if I consistently tell myself, I consistently writeevery day as a discipline, as a cognitive habit to build myself up.
Over time, I will start seeing more and more of actually the self-worth that I do contribute to the world, that other peoplesee that I contribute.
And so I just wanted to say that because, I mean, it sounds simple, but there is a deep and profound elegance to that whenit comes to building someone's self-esteem and their sense of self-worth.
I agree completely.
[19:25] But there is also something more, I think, that is important to build the self-esteem.
And it has something to do with vulnerability and shame.
Importance of Vulnerability and Shame
[19:40] Because I always say that if you don't own your vulnerability and if you don't own your shame, you will not have agood self-esteem.
[19:55] And to try to explain that furthermore, I think if you have something that is really vulnerable to you and you try tohide it and someone starts to… Hoke at it?
Yeah, it's really bad.
And then you feel really bad about it and your self-esteem goes down somehow because that has nothing to do with self-confidence.
It has more something to do about you as a human being.
Being so what i think is really important to to get a good self-esteem is actually to own your shame and to own yourvulnerability so if you know which areas you feel vulnerable about you have to, Open up and tell it to someone. You haveto open that box and say, this is something that I feel really vulnerable about.
This is something I feel really shameful about.
Because when you do that, somehow it's like getting the trolls into the sun and they explode or whatever.
[21:12] I think if you live and you carry shame, and then it's really hard to both get a good self-esteem and a good self-confidence, because you're always afraid that someone will find out who you are and and honestly for um i have to speakon my for myself here yes please yeah i was not i didn't have very much self-confidence as a young boy and and i wasreally really afraid of being rejected rejected.
So I didn't have a girlfriend until I met my wife when I was 21.
That was my first girlfriend, and I married her.
And I had been in love from when I was seven years old until I was 21. All the time.
I fell in love all the time, but I never had the courage to go, and I didn't feel I had the self-esteem.
I didn't have the self-confidence.
I was afraid of rejection. But one day I found out that, when I worked on this, I found out that I'm not afraid to failanymore in life.
Because that is part of life.
And I'm not afraid that people see my shameful side, because we all have a shameful side.
[22:39] And so I'm not afraid of that. I'm not afraid to show my vulnerability.
We all have vulnerability.
I found that I'm not afraid of this anymore because I say, and so what?
And so what? I've tried to argue with people. They say, so what?
It's really annoying. You can't get them to.
So somehow I own my vulnerabilities.
Vulnerabilities i own my shame and that makes my selfish dream much stronger let me ask you then just the challengeyou sign hold what was it how did you cross that threshold that tushka i mean what was it was it an experience what wasthat aha moment where you said you know what i don't really give a shit anymore i'm just gonna move into the unknownhere into the uncertainty how How did you, what was it? Was it something you said?
Was it something you experienced? Was it something you read?
Is it something someone said to you that kind of a light bulb went off in your head? Actually, several episodes.
[23:43] There was an episode that was of a fear of sexual content being distributed out to the public.
And i was threatened that someone would sell send that out and show it to the public, and i had to decide what am i goingto do about that and it's it i mean shameful vulnerable it was really really tough and then i was thinking about kimkardashian she became a world world famous after this sex video.
And we have other examples of that, and I think, I mean, it's normal, it's human, it's...
[24:39] And then I said, I can handle everything that life throws at me.
If this happens, okay, then I have to stand there and say, yeah, that happened. And so what?
And so what? It happened.
And I think when I was in that situation and I was really afraid and I was really afraid that this was going to be exposedand it never happened, but then I suddenly understood that and so what? What if it happens?
It's going to be forgotten in a fortnight and the world moves on.
[25:25] And that actually was a turning point for me, that I found this inner peace that we're all going to die.
And there are people they are much more interested in themselves than they are in me and.
Overcoming Fear of Inadequacy
[25:52] We think that we are the center of the world, we are not I'm not center of the world, people are not interested in meand it can be very fun for five minutes and then the world moves on so somehow I found my.
[26:05] Self-esteem in that That, okay, it doesn't really matter what happens in life. I can handle it.
I don't know what is happening. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I know that I have the resources in myself.
I have the self-esteem, the tools. I can find tools. So bring it on.
[26:28] I will handle it. I think that's a very astute point for a lot of people.
You know, I think everybody I know is ashamed of something or there's some sort of vulnerability or what have you.
And what I hear is that a man who owns his vulnerability, a man who owns his shame, to begin with that road, for me, ittakes self-awareness.
You need to understand, as you called it, the mind talk, the self-talk.
What is the story you're telling yourself? yourself and when you're self-aware and you're understanding as you've justarticulated to us this this story about being exposed or what have you or you know being whatever outed or shamed orwhatever you want to call it is that it took a level of self-awareness and then you had to you had to frame and reframe andthink okay so what you know I'm the center of my own universe but I'm not the center of everyone else's universe and Ithink what also hit me was you didn't say say it per se, but it's self-compassion.
There was a level of empathy you had for yourself.
Whatever it was, whatever this idiot wanted him to do to send it out there or whatever pictures or videos or whatever itwas, it doesn't really matter.
[27:38] But it was a level of self-compassion for yourself.
And when you have that self-compassion and you are aware of the narrative that you're telling yourself, that sounds likeit's, that's a great recipe to own your vulnerability.
Now, Now, this is not easy for any of us, of course, but I think through that awareness, through that self-compassion, thatallows you to actually, I guess, back to the word, courage to face that vulnerability, to accept that vulnerability and said,fine, if it happens, then I got to just deal with it.
But life is going to throw a lot more hard balls than this. I'll get through this.
Is this to some extent what you're saying to me? Just to make sure I'm understanding it?
You understand it completely. and that's what I do or was thinking about what I think our greatest fear in life, is the fear ofnot being able to handle what life throws at us, so you can have the fear of rejection, you can have the fear of, losingsomething you can have the fear of being ridiculed you can have the fear of the unknown you can have the fear of Yeah,you can have lots of fears, but it all.
Fear of Not Handling Life's Challenges
[28:56] Tickles down or can be summed up in this fear that you can't handle what life throws at you.
So if I would like to invite you on a date, if that had been the case, but then I don't have the courage to do it because I'mafraid I can't handle if you reject me, and therefore I won't invite you.
[29:16] And that is what happens to every human being in every situation when they meet fearful situations, they stopthemselves from moving forward because they are afraid that they can't handle if it goes wrong, if they are being rejected,if they are being ridiculed.
So they don't speak up among a huge crowd and argue against something because they're afraid they're being ridiculed.Instead, they shut up.
So I think that that is the greatest greatest hurdle or the greatest hurdle for every human being to live the life they wantthat they are afraid that they can't handle the situation yeah the situation because of course if you're courageous and youand and you go through your fear it doesn't mean that necessarily mean that you will be successful you can't fail and thatis what people are afraid of so so i i think I think if people can get good self-esteem, self-confidence and own their shameand their vulnerability.
[30:31] I mean, they can do everything.
There is nothing that stops them on their path in their life because they know that they can handle it no matter what'shappening.
So if it goes wrong, yeah, well, so what? Then I have to.
[30:48] Music.
[30:56] In part one of my conversation with Svein Harald, he emphasizes that true courage involves facing fears rather thanthe absence of fear.
It's encapsulated in the concept that while bravery might operate without fear, well, courage requires acknowledging fearand choosing to act regardless.
And this action is driven by the belief in the value that lies beyond the fear, highlighting the importance of self-confidenceand self-esteem as foundational elements for courage.
Spine Harald shares personal strategies for building self-esteem, such as maintaining a daily practice of noting personalstrengths, thereby creating a positive archive of self-acknowledgement.
Now, another critical aspect discussed is the power of owning one's shame and vulnerability.
[31:42] By confronting and sharing these feelings with a trusted individual, the paralyzing grip of shame can bediminished, revealing solutions previously obscured by that fear.
And this process of ownership and disclosure leads to a significant release, almost a cathartic process, allowing for innerpeace and resilience.
One of the strategies Feinhardt talked about when confronting his shame through courage was by asking himselfquestions.
For example, like, so what? Who's going to care?
Who's going to think about this in a fortnight? He suggests that with time, many of our worries fade away.
This attitude, along with a determination to tackle life's challenges head on, well, it highlights a core conviction.
Our deepest fear lies not in the obstacles we face, but in doubting our ability to surmount them.
Svein Harald's approach maps out a journey towards finding inner strength and tranquility, to finding that inner peacethrough facing and accepting our fears and our vulnerabilities. abilities. So now let's slip back into the stream with.
[32:48] Music.
Preparing for Difficult Conversations
[32:56] I mean, if someone's thinking, you know what, I need this immense courage because I have to face this difficultconversation I have to have at work, or I have to give someone a demotion, or I have to wait for these health results, youknow, my blood work, or what have you.
You've mentioned some of it. How do you prepare yourself to step into situations that require such immense courage?
Perhaps it's public speaking. Perhaps it's leadership, speaking in front of the board, or what have you.
What are the steps that people can take to find this immense courage, to step into that arena?
The Power of Curiosity
[33:34] I think the most important competence, together with being courageous, but also a way to become or be courageousand to step into that arena, as you mentioned, is to be curious.
I think that to be curious is probably, together with courage, the two most important skills we need as human beings tohandle everything that life throws at us, to move into the future.
I mean, the world moves so fast.
[34:20] Competence goes out on date.
I mean, it's something that doesn't last because you need new competences, new skills.
[34:37] And things move so fast. So if you're going to really be part of the future, you have to be curious.
And as far as I understand, in every situation, when you are afraid, let's say you want to invite a girl on a date.
And if you go there and if you have this curious mind and say, okay, let's see what's happened.
And if she rejects me, how will I react?
What can I learn from this? I mean, if you turn your whole life into being Socrates, I mean, there is nothing you can't do.
Because you always put a question mark behind every feeling, every action, every reaction, everything.
I mean, being curious, I think that solves almost everything.
Because I find that whenever I'm curious, I always feel that I am on top of the situation somehow.
[35:44] Because I guess there's always a lesson to learn, right? The curiosity, you know, instead of slapping a period at theend of the sentence, turn it into a question.
[35:53] There's just two things I'd like to riff off of that, because I think that's very important.
Because people feel anxious. It's like, I won't feel, as you said, I won't be able to handle the rejection.
Overcoming Anxiousness
[36:03] I won't be able to handle this situation. And so that brings up anxiousness, this angst.
But you know for the listeners again we've talked about this on the show you know excitement and anxiety like they haveidentical physiological markers meaning they're the identical emotion both physiologically but what changes it is the storywe tell ourselves as you said what am i telling myself what is my mind talk what is my self-talk right and what i hear yousaying is if i put a question mark and ask myself what am i going to learn from this Oh, what's curious about this? What isthe reason I'm feeling this way, right?
We can actually change. If we can change that one sentence, we can move from anxiousness to excitement, right?
And I think that's a very important thing. I think it's also how we articulate the question to ourselves.
If we ask, oh, why am I feeling like that? Then I have to feel I have to justify my own emotions to myself.
But if I just tweak it a little, ask myself, what is the reason I'm feeling like this?
And i'm searching for an explanation and so i don't become defensive i become as you said your vernacular curious rightand so that curious as you said would then leads to courage per se because you want to understand what it is that thissituation may teach me yes that is the point that.
[37:27] I'm afraid but oh let's see what's happening it's going to happen but what will be the reaction interaction um howwill i cope if it goes badly and how can i use my competence how can i use my flexibility how can i use my intellectualmind but if you're bullied if you meet a bully with being depressed or sad or angry and so on you will lose but if you meeta bully with curiosity curiosity, somehow you will maintain or maybe even have the power in that situation.
So, and especially in the corporate life, there are still lots of bullies there.
But when you are bullied and you start to ask questions, it's quite interesting that you say that. But why?
And you continue just to ask questions to bullies, they suddenly give up because they can't cope with that. there.
And I've experienced that a lot. I even actually.
[38:34] You know, you have these trolls on social media.
Yeah. And I was actually writing blogs quite extensively in the end of 2015 to 2020.
And one of Norway's most famous trolls, he started to go after me.
And that was a time when I built my self-confidence and so on.
And I hated that when people criticized me and I hated not being popular and I wanted to please everyone.
And then I said to myself, OK, I have to do I have to train myself.
[39:16] So because if I'm going to make a difference in the world, I have to I have to stand for something.
And when you stand for something, people will some people won't like you at all.
And then i have to build some strength and self-confidence and self-esteem and and believe that i can cope with that kindof people that are going to meet me so i started to argue with or not argue but go into this discussion with this troll and isaid okay i'm going to i'm going to spend this i think it was three in the afternoon and i said okay i'm going to spend thiswhole all afternoon, just in discussion with this person.
[40:00] And what I did, and he came with preposterous reasoning or everything, and he accused me of a lot of things.
But every accusation he threw at me, I replied with a question.
Do you have any references? Do you have any references? Do you have an experience? How can you say that?
Can you confirm that? So I only asked questions back. And he became so frustrated.
And he said, yeah, and he got more and more angry.
And then another troll joined into this conversation.
And at the end, that lady, she said, oh, forget him. He's just an idiot.
And then they left the conversation.
So, just by asking questions, be curious, asking them, where do you have that, do you have any references, are there anyresearch behind what you're claiming?
He said that I was an idiot. Well, how do you define idiot?
[41:08] Just to ask questions, to be curious, I mean, you can win everything.
And that helps you be courageous in a situation that you feel inferior.
My background in clinical psychology was always about exploring a person's paradigm, exploring the person's beliefsystem, and trying to help them rewire it or to reframe it or reappraise it to find a much more healthier way of doing it.
Some trolls, you know, some people are just out there just for the fight.
That's all they want to do is push buttons to get a reaction there's no quality of conversation and sometimes you just gottacut your losses and think okay this is just a waste of my time this guy or this gal they're they're they're just wired a wholedifferent way than you know, yourself for me it was um an eye-opener because i could i could somehow remain in thatconflict, without feeling inferior.
[42:11] I felt that I had the courage to stand in that discussion because I always had an answer, or not an answer, but aquestion.
So I never felt inferior in that discussion. And the only thing they wanted to do was to try to make me feel inferior, to getpower over me.
It gave me, I felt an upper hand in that discussion.
And that's why I think that curiosity is really important.
The problem is that we are not curious anymore.
I dare say that we lose our curiosity during school years.
I mean, as kids, we are curious. We say, why, why, why, why?
What we do at school is to try to learn that there is a transfer of competence to you.
[43:05] But do we really learn to be curious? We have to learn and then we have to have tests to prove that we havelearned.
But do we really learn to be curious? And I didn't. And when I ask people about it, we don't.
So I think one of the problems is that we lose our curiosity.
So as adults, we have to relearn how to be curious.
And this is not something I just say. There's a researcher, there's a Dr. Lann.
When they were recruiting people, they wanted to find the most brilliant minds, people that were curious and inventiveand so on.
[43:42] And Dr. Lann, he took the questions that they used when they hired engineers and so on, and used it on kids.
And he studied the same kids. It's 1,600 kids from when they were five years old until they were 15.
1,600 kids answer the same questions.
And when they were five years old, this group, 98% were regarded as curious genesis.
[44:13] Five years later, the same group, when they were 10 years old, only 30% was regarded as curious genesis.
And when they were 15 years old, there were only 12% that was regarded as curious genesis.
And they did ask the same questions, as far as I understand, on 220,000 30-year-olds.
And only 2% were regarded as curious genesis.
[44:49] So somehow, on the way, we lose our curiosity. And it might not only be school, of course. Yeah, you know, I thinkthat's so important.
You know, as we move into the future, more and more technology, more and more AI and such.
And I think those human abilities that we have, those who are able to have psychosocial emotional intelligence, who cancommunicate, who can collaborate, who can cooperate, who have the courage to have constructive conflict at work, toaddress issues and other things, to be curious about another person's opinions.
Opinions, even if it's crossed from mine, even if we cross swords, but it's to have the curiosity.
And all these Cs, I think are...
[45:30] Are are things that we need to have we can make an indelible mark on a culture and it doesn't matter if you'reintroverted extrovert you can have all these right but i think what you're talking about are our skills for the future and itdoesn't matter i mean curiosity is always something we can encourage and develop like any muscle such as motivation orcourage or resilience but what it does take is i think you've alluded to is experience we need to put ourselves in situationswhere we can experience something.
And I think what you were saying before is that, okay, what if I do this and I do fail or if it flops, how am I going tohandle that?
If it's a rejection, a girl, if I want to ask her out for a date, not that I do that, I'm married, just theoretically, but are I goingto give a presentation or I'm going to give a big talk on resilience or you on courage or what have you?
[46:20] Because I think that is the difference between between speculation and strategy which you're talking about spinehuddled is right on the point it's strategic what happens if this plays out how am i going to handle it if i get all the successhow am i going to handle it if i flop how am i going to handle it and i think there's a fine line between strategic thinkingand just speculation because speculation is crossing the bridge and creating all these anxiety ridden scenarios and so thiscomes back to some i just I just wanted to segue into something, because when I was doing some research, you speak a lotabout storytelling or the role of storytelling in courage.
[47:00] If we could just shift the conversation, can you speak a little to the role of storytelling at work to inspire others, toinspire ourselves if we're leading ourselves? Yes.
[47:11] Storytelling for me is essential. and we are human beings of emotions and you learn much more when youremotions are connected and we we don't like well we like facts but we get tired of facts but we will never get tired ofstories.
[47:35] When we grow up, and if you were so lucky to have parents that read for you when you were kids and so on, weloved it.
And you were not allowed to stop to read.
We had to sleep before you could stop.
So we love stories, and everyone loves stories told in a good way.
[47:56] Stories, and everything is stories. I mean, why do we go to the movies?
It's to see stories. when you sit in a social arena with your friends drinking wine or beer or dinner or whatever we tell eachother stories it's all about stories and the best storytellers are the ones that you really want to have in your party the peoplethat really are good at telling stories engaging your feelings getting you to laugh to cry to to to really make you feelsomething and i think society society today is it's just way much too flat especially in education so bringing emotions intoeducation and to a situation where you try to convey something information share something that makes the audiencemuch more attentive more interested more engaged engaged so so if you have a message you have something that youwant to to spread the word or something you put it into a story then you get you get the attention you get the feelings umhooked on and that and and they will listen and they will remember because if remember when When you cut yourself ona knife the first time, of course, lots of emotions.
[49:24] It's blood and everything, scared, pain. You remember that.
[49:29] You remember it. When you had sex the first time, you remember it.
When you lose someone that you loved and you cry your heart out for days or weeks or months, you remember it.
So the feelings are, it's a really good way to remember something if you can engage people's feelings.
So that is why I use storytelling. telling so i know when i when i give my talks i never use powerpoint i stand there aloneon the stage big stage alone with the light on me and i don't want the competition with the powerpoint i want them to tosee me and feel me but i'm not the important person they are what i am i'm just a medium i just want them that when i tella story they remember theirs that are similar or something And brings up memories, brings up feelings.
And then when I connect it with a good point or whatever, then they take that.
So I think that they will remember more from my talk when I use storytelling than when or if I show them facts.
[50:40] And that is, of course, when I stand on stage.
But when I sell myself, I have a leadership course or a part of a tender for a course. When I present my course to thecustomer, when I'm finished, you see that they have not decided.
And the others that have been there and tried to sell their course, they are, of course, both experienced and good and soon.
But then I ask, can I tell you why I do what I do?
[51:08] Why do I do leadership course? And then I have a story where I really fucked up as a leader when I got everyoneagainst me.
I mean, it was horrible when I was a sales director in a confectionery company in Idnar.
Building Self-Confidence
[51:30] I thought I was God's gift to the employees until I really hit the wall.
I thought I was a fantastic, magnificent leader. Then I hit the wall as a sales director, and it had enormous consequences,millions of millions of Norwegian kroners that we lost.
And I lost what you call the wardrobe, as in football.
And so everything was really bad so i i was i had headache stomach ache and i i dreaded going to work and so on so i tellthis story and then i tell how i invited my team i used a coach and i invited my team to a two-day session and so on so onand how we turned this around and i put my heart out and i asked for i i apologize for being a bad leader and i asked themto tell me what was my strengths and my weaknesses were lots of weaknesses not many strengths and how we turned thisaround and became a fantastic team and we and and then and the results became fantastic next six years after this andwhen i tell that story i get the job every time.
[52:50] Well i guess again i guess it's owning your vulnerability and your shame and you know presenting it to them theysay you know what this guy is humble right he's speaking you know he's speaking straight from the heart you knowthere's depth in what you're saying at least that's what i i'm understanding you're communicating to me that's what i'mcommunicating to you and i ask people do you um do you like i when i i'm in front of an audience i ask them to raise yourhand if if you love perfect people.
[53:20] Raise your hand if you love busy visitors. We don't do that.
We like people that are similar to ourselves.
Of course, we like someone that has, you have to be a star or that you have done something that we can learn from, ofcourse.
But not if you're arrogant and say, I'm the best.
We don't like that. so humble humbleness is of course humble and humble uh together with uh great results that is a goodcombination isn't it definitely definitely just to shift the conversation then you know talking about leadership you knowlet's say a leader's listening to this right now and they're thinking you know my my my team's kind of flat the energy'skind of flat And in the context of team dynamics, I'd like you to answer this question to the best of your ability.
How can a leader foster a culture of courage, curiosity, as you said, and innovation?
[54:19] One thing that, you know, psychological safety, that is one of the most talked about words these days in the world.
I think that a problem with psychological safety is that they forget where people come from, people that are in theorganization.
So if a CEO or a leader in a team and so on say that here, you can say whatever you want.
There is no fear of retaliation and humiliation and ridicule.
You will not be ridiculed.
Will they believe it?
[55:04] Imagine, I have so many stories that I talk about with regards to this, but I have stories with my friends of my son's,that a friend of my son, he was so drunk and he was puking and almost in coma, and we said that we're going to send youback home to your parents. We found him on our lawn.
And he said, no, no, no, no, I'm going to go to a friend. And he said, no, you're not going to a friend.
You're not in shape to go to a friend.
So we're calling our parents. And he said, no, no, well, then we have to call the 911 or the paramedics or something.
And then he said, no, no, no, I can't do that because then my parents will know.
They will find out.
[55:58] And then you understand that there is no psychological safety at home. He was afraid.
When he was really vulnerable, when he was in a situation where he couldn't take care of himself, he didn't have thepsychological safety at home to go and tell them or lean on them when they really needed them.
[56:14] And you can see actually a pattern with lots of kids in their youth coming from that kind of home.
And when I asked my the parents of my my children's friends they said that all my our children they don't or kids orteenagers they don't tell us anything we don't know who they are with what they do in the evenings they don't have thisclose relationship when they're young and then you you see studies from university when in Norway 50% it was aresearch in 2019 50% of students They don't have the courage to tell what's on their heart, even though they know it'scorrect. So don't raise your hand and tell it.
[57:01] And then you expect that when they come out in work life to be courageous enough to believe that there ispsychological safety here, when they don't dare to tell their parents when they have been drinking.
So I think if you're building psychological safety in a team, you have to understand that it's all about giving the employeesand the people in the organization, they have to train their courage.
It's their courage that is a key to psychological safety in an organization.
The courage for me as an employee to say.
[57:45] I don't think that was a good idea. That takes courage.
And people come from homes, broken homes, or they don't have the courage, they don't have the self-esteem, they don'thave self-confidence, and they come into there.
And you can talk about psychological safety, but what you really should do is to help each individual improve their self-esteem, self-confidence their courage their vulnerability and one thing i find it's very interesting to see in life in generalwe never go on courses in the most important areas in our lives when i ask leaders this is the fourth there are actuallythree more important areas but when i ask leaders when did you go on your first leadership course after you became aleader And I think on average, and I've asked hundreds or thousands of people about this, on average, I think it's two orthree years after they become a leader, they go on their first leadership course.
And I think that's a Russian roulette from the top management to not sending people on a leadership course.
But that's the fourth. But in the three most important areas in life, we never go on course until it's a problem.
It's it's uh being a partner or a spouse it's so difficult to live with another person.
[59:15] We i mean it's really difficult it's hard work it does it's an investment right we are completely different even thoughwe love each other and everything it's so hard work and and you have and and we get um experiences from and and wegrow and we can grow different ways so so it's It's really hard work.
And why don't we go on love courses and do that in peacetime, when we love each other, to learn how to cope with thedifficult times that are ahead of us?
So I think that's the first area, being parents. Yes.
[59:57] The first parent, you read books and you go on courses to breathe and so on.
And the second that kid's head is out of the... It's born, yeah.
Yeah. No one goes on the courses.
And imagine kids, what we go through during our first, our life, and with the puberty and bullying and how to cope witheverything thing that's that we didn't cope with when i was young so why don't we go on courses i mean every parentshould actually go on the course every three years or something to just learn and get new impulses how to become a goodcoach for your kids i think what needs to also be focused in schools is it's just that i think it's critical thinking you knowit's as you're saying to to to walk back and strategically think about how, what happens if I do flop? What happens if I dosucceed?
How do I deal with it? You know, to have that critical thinking, to ask questions, you know, to be able to ask, to sit, tohave a leader, if a teacher says something, you know, the teacher or the leader shouldn't shoot down.
It's a legitimate question. They're coming from a place of curiosity.
[1:01:14] By encouraging that, that psychological safety, that curiosity.
I think also financial education. I don't think kids or many of us are being educated financially, just understand how abudget is. I think that's something.
But back to your point about courage and psychological safety, I think everybody should take some sort of basicpsychosocial emotional course in psychology to understand communication, to understand the exploration of certainthings.
You know, one, you speak to courage.
You know, the reason I started about this is that I started, it was about resilience. And I saw so many people who areunintentionally fragile or they have so many self-critical thoughts.
They feed themselves with so much self-doubt. And of course, it is unintentional.
And people don't sometimes have the know-how or the knowledge of how to do it.
You get up on stage. You run leaderships on courage and curiosity and to understand that about embracing vulnerability.
And in a sense I'm a shade of that per se but I talk about resilience and equanimity and to talk about these because I thinkthese are all life skills that we're not born with, we have to go through the crucible, we have to go through the gauntlet ofpain sometimes to understand we need to have experience I think and so I completely concur with what you've said today.
[1:02:38] Resilience I talk a lot about that as well and I think resilience.
[1:02:45] Is somehow the ability to think that I can handle everything that life throws at me.
That is resilience. Because, you know, you can't control the world around you.
If you try to do that, you will go mad or you will get depressed or whatever.
You can't control it. But what you can do is you can control how you react to the world. world, to a very great extent,actually, I think.
But if you have this attitude that, well, bring it on.
I will find a way to solve it. I will find a way.
I have the resources in me, or I will find the resources outside of me to do it.
I'm sure I can. Janet, somehow I think that really fuels your self-confidence and your self-esteem and your resilience toreally think that I can handle everything.
[1:03:54] And honestly, I believe I can.
So if you fall flat on your face, then okay, that's where I am now.
This is where I have to work from. Not looking back and saying, oh, why?
I wish I had something else or were somewhere else or this hadn't happened and so on.
But if you can accept the situation you're in.
[1:04:22] I think, okay, this is where I have to work from now.
[1:04:26] This is a new starting point. I agree with you.
We have to meet ourselves where we are at that point in time and then move forward from there, right?
I mean, there is a lot of wishful thinking. We can ask ourselves, why me? Why me?
It's okay. You can ask yourselves and you can do that for a day.
[1:04:43] But afterwards, it's like, okay, what am I going to do? How am I going to move through the storm?
I don't like the storm. I wish it was gone, but there it is in front of me, but I'm motivated to get through the storm.
I know I'm going to get bruised and battered walking through that, but I will come out stronger on the other end.
And I think a lot of this comes back down to the mind talk, the self talk we tell ourselves, right?
And I think one poignant point you made is, you know, once you, you lost your senior vice presidency of the winecompany and such, you said you hired a coach and that coach had given you, she or he had given you some questions andthose questions kind of of triggered your thinking.
And so sometimes it's not always about leading ourselves. We can find the support out there, depending on what kind ofsupport.
But there's people out there who are competent and knowledgeable.
And sometimes it's just being vulnerable, as you said before, and thinking, okay, you know what?
Maybe I can't handle all this. Maybe I need a sparring partner or a coach or someone to help me through this.
But I will get through it. I have to do the work. But maybe I need someone as a catalyst just to fire my thinking, toreframe something I can't see, to help me to move from my subjective storm to the objective perspective that I need inorder to see the path or the direction to move forward.
[1:06:00] It's true. And as I mentioned, that coach, he asked me three questions.
The first question was when I was really depressed.
And so he said, how big is your problem in a world context?
Transforming Challenges
[1:06:15] And he said how many people out there in the world you would like to trade their problem with your problem andand the third question he asked me was how can you turn this problem into a an advantage for you not only not not justsolve it but to an advantage and i and i think it's all about perspective isn't it in the end it's all about perspective but i thinkthis i love this quote from.
[1:06:50] I never remember his name but um man search for meaning oh victor frankl thank you victor frankl and his quotewhen he says that um power outside you can take away everything from you accept one thing the freedom and he used theword freedom to decide how you will respond to that.
[1:07:21] And I think that is a lovely way to see things.
You can't control things around you, but you still have a freedom, a freedom that no one can take away from you to decidehow you will react on what's happening to you.
And I think just to give context to Viktor Frankl, him being, I believe he was a psychologist in the death camps of NaziGermany when he came up with his therapy called logotherapy. therapy.
And so it was in the depths of that despair and darkness that he says this, not sitting on top of a mountain when everythingis going well.
He had lost his family. He'd lost everything.
And he was right in there in that darkness when he said that.
And so it shows the depth and the context in which those words, as simple as they seem, again, have a profound and deepelegance to help us because the emotions will come up.
But we can decide, as you've said, we can choose to what do we want to do with those emotions do we want them toflatten us or do we want to move forward i am very respectful of your time swine harold i just was wondering whatmessage would you like to leave our listeners with you know about the power of courage to transform their lives whetherprivately or professionally i know we've covered a huge spectrum here but is there something that maybe you can leaveour listeners with today yes the most important.
The Power of Courage
[1:08:51] Trait the most important thing you can or or be a trait you can have is to be courageous i think as a human as ahuman species that that we they say that love is is the most important thing for us as a species to survive.
[1:09:16] But without courage, love will not get wings.
I mean, without courage, without that millisecond of courage that I have to ask a lady for a cup of coffee or a date,without that millisecond of courage, we will not get a chance.
There will not be an opportunity between us.
So everything, everything in life, everything starts with this millisecond of courage.
Whether you want to ask for a promotion, ask for more money, if it is to go into a customer meeting, if it is to raise yourhand in that situation, if it is to say, yes, I will give a speech in my friend's wedding.
Everything, it's that millisecond of courage that is the key to life itself.
Well said. I think that was a perfect place to end this conversation.
Svein Harald, I just want to truly thank you for the privilege and the time that you've given today.
It's an honor and a privilege, and I'm really happy that I was invited.
So thank you very much for allowing me to share my thoughts.
And you're a fantastic host as well. Thanks. I didn't pay him to say that.
[1:10:37] Music.
Embracing Resilience
[1:10:46] Throughout our discussion today, Svein Harald shared actionable insights on embracing everyday courage andfacing life's hurdles with resilience and curiosity.
He emphasized the importance of storytelling, connecting with others, and motivating ourselves, revealing how personalnarratives can lead to profound emotional engagement and understanding.
You know, we can all apply these principles in our own lives by facing our vulnerabilities openly, nurturing self-esteemthrough reflection and acknowledgement of our strengths, and embracing the lessons hidden within challenges. That is tobe curious.
Finding Curiosity
[1:11:20] You know, Sly and Harold's approach encourages all to find our own path to courage, whether it's through self-expression, learning from our experiences, or inspiring those around us.
You know, in our ongoing conversations about building resilience and equanimity, there is no doubt after my conversationwith my brilliant guest today that courage and curiosity are two of the fundamental principles that allow us to becomemore resilient.
So on a personal thank you from me to you for showing up today and sharing your wisdom, your insights, and yourvulnerabilities.
[1:11:57] And as you said, courage is about showing up to life's challenges, irregardless of the amount of fear.
And the reason we do it is because we feel there is something to gain on the other side of that fear.
Well folks we have crossed the finishing line of yet another episode i hope you found some tangible action some tangibleknowledge that you can apply to your own professional and private lives and if i may ask you as a little favor since you'vegot your apple podcast open or you listen to spotify or whatever other platform you may be using if you could take 30seconds and rate the episode and maybe leave some comments it helps with the statistics on the algorithms to help otherlisteners to find this show and well anyways thank you for showing up for another week and allowing me to be part of thatweek until we continue this conversation at the next episode.
[1:12:47] Music.
