AI and the Future of Work, Life & Society: How to Prepare for the Changes Ahead.

Have you ever wondered how artificial intelligence (AI) is reshaping our world? Curious about the balance between AI's benefits and the potential risks? 

Welcome to this episode, where I engage in a deep dive into the world of AI with Carolin Puppel Calfa, an AI expert from ESMT Berlin Business School. We explore AI's extensive impacts on individuals, organizations, and societies, discussing its dual nature in job markets, education, and personal development.

Imagine understanding how AI influences your daily life and the future of work. 

By listening to this episode, you can:

• Gain Insight into AI's Influence: Learn how AI shapes decision-making and personal preferences, often without our explicit awareness.
• Prepare for Job Market Changes: Discover strategies to remain competitive in an evolving landscape influenced by AI.
• Enhance Education with AI: Explore the potential benefits of AI in providing customized learning experiences.

Three Benefits You'll Gain:

1. Critical Mindset: Insights on questioning information presented by AI algorithms, especially in news consumption and political beliefs.
2. Balancing AI and Human Skills: Understanding the importance of maintaining genuine human connections and critical thinking abilities while leveraging AI.
3. Future-Ready Skills: Strategies for continuous learning and upskilling to adapt to AI-induced changes in various professions.

Exploring Key Concepts and Issues:

Job Market Dynamics:

• Dual Nature of AI: Discussing job displacement due to automation and the creation of new opportunities and roles.
• Preparation and Engagement: Strategies for individuals to remain competitive in an AI-driven job market.

AI in Education:

• Customized Learning: The potential benefits of AI in providing tailored educational experiences for children.
• Fostering Human Skills: Enabling educators to focus on social learning and emotional intelligence.

Risks and Benefits of AI:

• Social Skills and Human Interaction: Addressing the risks of excessive reliance on AI and maintaining genuine connections.
• Balancing AI and Human Qualities: Emphasizing the importance of empathy, communication, and community engagement.

Bio:
Carolin currently serves as Director of Executive Education at ESMT Berlin Business School. With over 15 years of international business experience, her career encompasses diverse stages: She has worked as a management consultant at McKinsey & Company, held various corporate roles in financial services and e-commerce, and gained entrepreneurial experience by starting her own business. Her professional journey has taken her across Europe, the US, Australia, and Brazil, providing her with rich insights into different cultural contexts.

She is a  strong advocate for lifelong learning, she has dedicated the last three years to the academic world, with a passionate focus on AI.  She teaches in various courses focused on AI and is particularly interested in how AI will impact the future of work and society as a whole, and that it will be the most transformative force for humanity in the coming years.

Chapters

• 0:08 Introduction to It's an Inside Job podcast
• 0:44 Exploring the Future Impact of AI
• 3:01 Introducing Carolyn Popal-Karfer
• 9:36 Individual Influence on AI Interactions
• 13:48 AI's Promise and Concerns for Society
• 23:17 The Potential Societal Impact of AI
• 31:06 Reflection on AI's Influence on Agency
• 34:31 The Useless Class and Social Stratification
• 35:44 Impact of AI on Legal Industry
• 39:00 The Future of General Practitioners
• 42:19 Human Trust in Technology
• 51:01 Challenges in Embracing New Technology
• 58:19 Experimenting with AI and Learning
• 1:01:05 Acknowledging the Responsibility of AI
• 1:04:01 Navigating the World of Artificial Intelligence

Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:08] Back to It's an Inside Job podcast. I'm your host, Jason Liem. Now, this podcast is dedicated to helping you to help yourself and others to become more mentally and emotionally resilient so you can be better at bouncing back from life's inevitable setbacks. Now, on It's an Inside Job, we decode the science and stories of resilience into practical advice, skills, and strategies that you can use to impact your life and those around you. Now, with that said, let's slip into the stream.

[0:36] Music.

[0:45] Hey folks, welcome back to the show. It's an inside job. I'm your host, Jason Liem. This week, we are going to dive into our near future, a future that in some extent has already arrived on our doorstep. And that's the future of AI and how that will affect us as individuals, as organizations, as societies. I mean, many of us have fiddled around with AI, whether it's on Spotify choosing our music, whether it's with ChatGPT or Gemini, whether it's using it for art or just the curiosity in itself that is triggering us, how it's made a lot of our tasks a lot simpler, much more efficient.

[1:22] But as AI grows, as it becomes more dominant, and it's not just in the foreground but it is weaved into the background of our lives, the question is is how is AI going to influence us on so many different levels? And so today I want to dedicate this episode to AI. And I've invited an expert on the show to discuss. Because when we talk about AI and the future of how it plays out, for good or for bad, for the advantages or disadvantages, it is going to have an impact. So today I am joined by Carolin Puppel Calfa, all the way from Berlin, Germany. Now, Carolin currently serves as Director of Executive Education at ESMT Berlin Business School. With over 15 years of international business experience, her career encompasses diverse stages. She's worked as a management consultant at the Kinsey Company, held various corporate roles in financial services and e-commerce, and gained entrepreneurial experience by starting her own business. Her professional journey has taken her across Europe, the States, Australia, and Brazil, providing her with a rich insights into different cultural context she has a passionate focus on AI and she teaches various courses focused on AI and is particularly interested in how AI will impact the future of work and society as a whole and that artificial intelligence will be the most transformative force for humanity in the coming years so without further ado let's slip into the stream.

[2:49] Music.

[3:01] Welcome to It's an Inside Job. Hey, good morning, Jason. It's a pleasure to be here. Yes, we are connecting between Oslo and Berlin. Interesting connection. Could we kick off the conversation by you briefly introducing who you are and what you do? Yes. So, my name is Carolyn Popal-Karfer, and I am a Director for Executive Education at ESMT Business School, where I focus most of my time on educating mid- to senior-level executives on topics of artificial intelligence, which is my absolute passion.

[3:41] Before joining academia, I have had a long career in management consulting, corporate strategy, and actually a management career in business. But now i'm really focusing on ai and privately i am a mother of two two young boys so i'm also very curious to see where this new technology is taking us yeah i think for many of us you know ai came on to the sort of in our consciousness i guess literally months ago and it's kind of the new cool tool but in our pre-conversation i think there is a much deeper conversation that is needed, and especially from how you articulated. So let me ask you, to start off general, why do we need to talk about AI, you know, and not just leave it to companies to just, you know, do what they want? Why do we need to have a deeper conversation about artificial intelligence?

[4:41] That is a very good question, Jason, to start off. Because it seems to be obvious, because there is not a day going by where isn't something in the news about AI. And maybe there's already some kind of AI tiredness about this hype. Nevertheless, I think it's extremely important that you and I, that let's say normal, regular individuals talk about this topic and do not just leave it to the realm of business and just focus the discussion of how AI, as many studies already quote, will create billions of dollars of productivity gains around the globe and make our life faster and better and more productive. I think it goes much deeper, and that's why it's so important that every person gets a perspective and an awareness of AI. And let me give you like two or three specific reasons.

[5:43] While AI, at least in the media, is predominantly discussed on the business aspects and how it affects processes, AI is already and soon even more affecting many facets or almost every facet of our daily lives. The recommendations that you get on your streaming provider for music, for video, the news that you read, the influences that you look at on Instagram and TikTok, some of them are avatars already. So AI is entering our space in our daily lives and subtly influencing our decision-making. And I'll come to that in a moment. That's, you know, what we would refer to as agency, how autonomous our decision-making is. And so this first element is like everybody needs to to be aware and conscious that, you know, the decisions that we make may be more and more influenced without us knowing by a different algorithm or an artificial intelligence. So we need to critically evaluate our choices and decision making.

[6:59] The second aspect why I think this is extremely relevant is that AI is going to impact the job market in positive but also negative ways. So certain tasks that have been predominantly performed by humans may be or potentially will be executed and automated away and be done by a machine. And that is not just like the physical tasks in the production chain, but particularly by what we call white-collar tasks, cognitive tasks. And we have already seen the first effects of that with companies like Klarna, the payment provider, laying off 700 people in their call center, because now chatbots can do the work a lot more targeted and efficient than humans. So job displacements are happening and will probably happen more. On the other hand, new job profiles will emerge and new tasks will be required.

[8:08] So I can't tell where the net balance of this is going to be, but it is for certain that we will see changes and that people will be affected. So they will need to prepare for that. And in general i think this is such a transformative change that is happening right now that you know we need to be prepared for the future we need to empower ourselves read about it be smart about it and just you know be um be proactive about it and that's why i think everybody should get interested and engaged with ai i find it very interesting where you're saying where it It could actually limit our sense of agency, our sense of autonomy, where we are maybe passively giving over our choices of, for example, the news we watch to algorithms and AI and the combination of that. I mean, we can educate ourselves, we can become more aware of it, but down to the individual such as you and I, you know, Jane and John Doe per se. I mean, how much does an individual, can he or she actually influence this? I mean, I guess it's already intertwined and embedded in our day-to-day lives. And again, forgive my layman's perspective, but I see this only increasing. But what choice can I have to do this to expand my sense of agency? Yeah.

[9:36] That's a very tough question. And I think the bad news here is that you as an individual can probably not do so much because we are on the consumer end. Like we're not creating our own large language models. We're not creating our own algorithms, or at least few of us do. So we have to accept the fact that we are on the receiving end.

[10:04] So what you can do is and I think that's a super important point is like keep this critical mind you need to always and increasingly so question at least when it's relevant what you see so I think there is one element where it's just Spotify suggesting you the next song and And that's nice. Maybe I just wasn't even aware of the song. But it starts in this little thing that previously you had to develop really your taste. You had to create your tapes and you would choose your favorite songs. And then you would like, you know, create this tape for your boyfriend or girlfriend. It was something that you had crafted because you put a lot of thinking into that. It may have related to a summer you've lived or a movie you've watched. And then you actively went after that and had a meaning.

[10:59] But that was time spent and you know now it's just becoming so much easier that you give this little agency over and let the machine create that for you um and each of us we will have to draw a borderline how much of this giving away agency matters i think it becomes extremely important when you judge news that you read political statements that affect your choices Voices that are more relevant, like listening to a song, but you're like political beliefs, crisis you're facing. And then we will also become influenced. We will be fed, as you mentioned, Jason, with news, increasingly fake news. Someone will try to influence us, to gain us as a voter.

[11:52] And there is no easy way to escape that. But as a grown and critically minded adult, your task will be to question almost everything and say, like, OK, if I get this message, is there a second thought behind that, that I'm seeing this news? Can I crosscheck from another source that this is really true, that this really happened? Where is this pushing me to? What is my first reaction? Should I be outrageous about something? Is it correct to be outrageous about this? should I step back and think? And I think this is going to be our key human task to like.

[12:34] Try and have a different perspective on things and challenge. And that's going to be even more difficult for the younger generation, I think. You know what you're talking about, you know, when Facebook came out in the early 2000s and such, we talked about echo chambers, right? But this has become even more prolific in the sense of that echo chamber where we're getting this tailored news. And to honestly look at the human race per se, I don't think critical thinking is taught enough in schools, even at the primary level. And I think what you're saying is noble that we should cross-reference and check. But I mean, when it comes down to it, practically, how many of us actually do that? And I think this echo chamber where it becomes the algorithms and the AI becomes so selective in the media feeds. I mean, a lot of people don't watch news per se on the TV anymore. It's on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok or what have you. And we get these little sound bites. And I think what you're saying, it has huge, significant societal impact at all sorts of levels.

[13:49] And so how else do you see AI affecting? If we can start maybe broad on a societal level, how maybe things that we don't see right now, but what do you see on the horizon, Carolyn?

[14:03] I see good things and I see good things. So I don't want to talk this all bad and gloomy. I think AI looking to the future holds an immense promise of real actual gains for us. The major benefits, one you've mentioned, is in education. And the other one, I would say, is in science. If I start first with education, I think if done properly, if really the governments want to use it wisely and are really serious about what they're saying, that it's so important to educate future generations. Now we have a tool. In a situation where we lack skilled talent everywhere, where there is a lack of teachers.

[14:56] A lack of social workers, now you would have the ability to have really good trained AI assistants that could pretend to be Einstein and teach a child in its language. Which Marie Curie pretending, you know, in a profile and an interaction to explain something to a child, it would become so much more vivid, so much more tangible. And you could tailor education to an individual need of a child rather than have 30, 40 children sitting in a room and like perhaps them being forgotten. So, there could be an amazing way really to provide education to children around the globe, wherever there is internet.

[15:44] To respect the individual needs of a child and provide them the factual learning that they need. So that is something where I see would be in tremendous benefit. And then the humans could focus on, let's say, the social learning, right? If you would have, let's say, two really good hours with an AI trainer to learn, let's say, the factual basics of things, things then you could have two to three hours of social learning of just being outside with humans with other children to make the experience that are so necessary to you know create social bonds to live conflict how to come to agreements so we could have really a specialization and dedicate our resources to where the humans are necessary where the humans are good and have all the the expertise learning done by someone who is probably even better than a lot of school teachers, and my apologies to school teachers out there, but I mean, it's hard to compete with an AI that has been trained on all encyclopedias of the world.

[17:01] Yeah, that's fascinating in the sense that, you know, like, you know, we're Generation X and we had to study from textbooks and such and students do that now. But as you said, the AI can be create a very bespoke learning development curve for children everywhere, depending upon their need. And I think what you're saying is then we can shift to increasing the know-how and the psychosocial emotional intelligence, the socialization. Because I think that's still what's going to be so necessary is the communication, the collaboration, the creativity, the cooperation between individuals. And I think, again, this is my layman's perspective. I think what we see right now is sort of the dark side of these smartphones that we have where kids have become much more isolated to some extent where stress and anxiety and depression have increased.

[17:56] And although that is very unfortunate, I still think we can maybe learn from that and maybe to create new systems or new regulations to help in the educational process. Because as I said, I like what you said, AI is not all negative. There's going to be a lot of benefits, but we just need to be cognizant of shaping that and not just letting it sort of organically happen but you know actually sculpt perhaps is this is just my take on things no i i think it's it's a very good interpretation and i would like to build on that because please i'm mentioning that ai can um let's say augment our own intelligence it can help us to get smarter in certain areas. So that should hopefully free up time and it should help us dedicate on our true human skills of where we have an actual advantage over the machine. Like in our cognitive capabilities, we will soon not have so much advantage over AI. So that brings us to the basics of like where do we excel and where it's necessary to excel. And that's exactly the point that you mentioned. it's in the community it's in the human traits so.

[19:18] That humans actually learn well how to communicate how to build this critical thinking how to you know build socio-emotional relationships that would be a core um area to focus on and that's now where i'm also most concerned if i'm honest because i think that's and you asked me initially what's in the horizon, what's coming, what's the good side, what's the bad side. And I think one of the key risks is that the amazing advancements of AI, of how it will make our life easier, if you may say so.

[20:01] That this is also opening a door to human weaknesses. And what do I want to say with that? We've seen it already with social media, especially with the younger generation, how they might escape actual challenges in the real world into a virtual world, you know, just by, or a digital world, by chatting to people that are far away, that are not in their classroom, that they don't have to engage with, because it becomes easier. How they are you know going into a gaming world into the metaverse whatever and i think ai will make that a lot easier with tools like companion ai where you just create your ai group of friends and characters that you can chat away with it's it's going to be characters that understand you that understand exactly the troubles that a 13 or 14 year old goes through and you feel that relationship only it's not real it's not a real human so i think there is quite a bit of a risk that people will renounce even more from from from the real life challenges and like find their.

[21:23] Salvation in virtual relationships virtual communications etc and we we unlearn what it is to really interact with the human in front of us to learn the mimicry to look each other in the eyes to hold eye contact even if it's unpleasant because it's a critical or difficult situation.

[21:46] And that is something that would worry me a lot because that goes to the basics of human skills and social skills.

[21:58] I think that's very interesting because, you know, you can see it. I see, I catch myself sometimes when I feel a little bored or a little restless, you know, I'll automatically pick up my phone and start maybe, you know, thumbing through whatever, Instagram or what have you. And it's like, it's almost, as a sense, it's a sense of I lost my agency. It's just something I automatically do. But when I catch myself, it's like, what am I doing? But you know if we broaden that context you know if ai comes and well not if when it you know it becomes ubiquitous at such a level that it's just intertwined into our lives is that i guess the question is when jobs are getting evaporated and people lose their sense of purpose you know what they contribute what they do you know coming back to what you're saying with the uh with these uh VR, virtual reality, plus AI, the metaverse.

[22:57] You know, it becomes a form of escapism because I don't have a sense of purpose. My real life feels empty and vacuous and I don't feel any growth. But when I jump into this VR world that is enhanced and it's hard to tell the

[23:12] reality from fantasy that, you know, there is that population that could slide into that. You know, you can look at some sci-fi films, right? whether they were made 20 years ago, 10 years ago, or just two years ago, you can see part of how this is being intertwined and how society could develop.

[23:30] There is actually a nice image that comes to mind. At least it's a positive image for those of you that have watched the movie of WALL-E, that little robot that was left behind to clean up the earth because humanity has left behind a polluted planet. And there, humanity is just, you know, floating around in these big seats and, you know, consuming food, drink, media, and, you know, just having a leisure life. But like we have lost the ability to walk you know to do anything relevant we're kind of just existing for pleasure and that is one scenario so if I think of where this might go and what it means I think you have there are going to be two choices there's the one choice where you say like wow this is amazing there's this new absolute super tool given to me I just need to be smart about it what I can do with it and if I learn how to use it well it will enable me to do things that previously I would never have been able to do so people will be able to start a company and do things without having to hire people without having to have they know all this cost that previously they wouldn't have been able to afford to, and they can just start doing something.

[24:53] It's amazing what you can do already today as a one person with the help of AI of really starting to create and make a living. If you have a good idea, right, you can become increasingly creative in composing music and creating imagery. So it can enhance the arts. I am positive that it's not necessarily only a threat, But I think there is going to be a way for people where AI is going to be a superpower.

[25:25] It augments your reality rather than substituting it. That's one way. I think that's, you know, just from my own personal experience, you know, my son is 20 and he's always been sort of created with concept arts and graphic arts and such. And at first, when he was 17, 18, he goes, Dad, with the AI, it's going to completely crush my industry. I said, well, look, let's be more open ended. Yes, there is going to be certain things. But now, you know, what now he's 20, 19, 20, he actually interacts with ChatGPT 4.0 or 40 or whatever the number is. And he actually uses it. He interacts with it to create certain concept arts. He'll say, this is what I'm looking for. This is what I'm looking for. The AI will generate something for him, but then he will take it that those raw fundamentals that the AI, but then he will tweak it. He will create his own way of looking at it. He will touch it in such a way that it becomes his. But yes, it's been augmented by AI. But the process of what he's creating is so much more faster, so much more rewarding for him. And I know this is just a very simple personal example, but it's a way that I see my son where he takes more agency, where he's actually using it as a tool and not seeing it as a threat. Yes, he's not blinded to the fact that there are going to be certain things that are faster and faster and faster, but as things develop.

[26:55] He's actually very proud of him. He's taken the initiative to get on top of things, to learn it, to think in different ways, just as you've recommended, how he can use it to his advantage, how he can use it to benefit himself for whatever career may be that he falls into or designs for himself.

[27:17] I think this is a great example. Thank you so much for sharing. This is exactly the point that I would like to make. Because then you see in your son someone who is in a situation where a task could just be completely automated away. Like, okay, now AI is doing this better and faster. But no, you can now think of, like, what do I do with this? And, like, maybe even unconsciously, he's starting to upskill himself. He's learning a new skill of working with the AI. Eye of like and there are amazing tools out there in the market um for graphics design for imagery video etc so he's learning something new and he's taking it to a new level he's working with it and he's taking himself to a new level and he's taking the output he's creating with it to a new level and that is the path that i would love to see for for many many people like working with this.

[28:10] However that requires an attitude jason that requires an attitude in your son to say like oh okay now now what do i do with this and and wanting to go after something because what can also happen is that and maybe sometimes it's it's not so easy to to find a new new way of doing something like i don't know if you have been processing bills or screening profiles or writing product descriptions now it's an AI and it does it in one second and much better than we did before and then it's like okay so so what do I do now sometimes it's maybe not so obvious like you know what you can do now better or instead um and then it becomes really tricky because then you you know you lose what you've been doing so far and you lose some part of your identification because you liked what you were doing, you were good at it.

[29:08] But also you weren't looking for something else. And I think that's fair. Not everybody has to be constantly on the look for doing something greater. You know, you can be content with what you have and in the point of life when you are. But if that's being taken away or eroding, the question then is like, what happens to these people? And I think it's going to be quite a significant number of people. And Jawahar Harari, he has talked about this as well and coined, I'm not sure you can say he coined the term, but he talked about like the useless class. That sounds very harsh and extremely negative. But I think in essence, there is the risk of something like this happening, that there is a large amount of people that their tasks are going to go away or slowly erupting.

[30:04] It's not exactly clear where they could upskill to. And it's also not so clear that they can, because let's also be fair, not everybody has it in himself or herself to learn something completely new and have the intellectual capabilities now to go to something different. And that is a risk that is, I think, very material. Very realistic that's that's up on the horizon that's potentially creating a larger divide in our society than we have today to the ones that are able to go with this AI wave and move a level up and benefit from it and one part that is just kind of left behind that.

[31:00] Music.

[31:07] In part one, we discussed many different facets of AI, both the benefits and the disadvantages. But one of the major first things we talked about was the sense of agency. And the question is, how much of that agency do we give up to artificial intelligence.

[31:24] Irregardless of what part of our life it is? You know, when it comes to work, maybe that's an easy part where we become more efficient, much more effective, and we can really work on the bigger, tougher questions. But when it comes to other parts of our life, what Carolyn is saying is that we need to be more cognizant of how it will influence us and affect our lives and the impact it will have at so many different levels. Now, one of the key major advantages of artificial intelligence is the fact that we will be able to create bespoke, tailored education for individual children to meet their specific needs. And at the same time, hopefully we can focus more on education when it comes to the psychosocial emotional intelligence, when it comes to collaboration, cooperation, communication, creativity, conflict resolution, critical thinking. But there is also key risks to artificial intelligence, where it can leave portions of society feeling rudderless, without purpose, without sense of value or contribution.

[32:27] Which usually comes from a profession or a job, where AI will realistically replace many of the jobs that we know today. And then this itself will create or foster more isolation and a sense of escapism where that part of society will escape into the virtual world and learn not to deal with the real-world challenges or the simple fact that they feel their real life feels vacuous and empty part one was both fascinating and frightening when you consider the possibilities that artificial intelligence will bring to us and our societies. Well, let's continue the conversation with Carolyn as we slip back and.

[33:08] Music.

[33:19] It's hard for me to wrap my head around it, but I can see exactly what you're kind of saying per se. But because right now, as you said, blue collar work, a lot of that is going to disappear. I mean, I can understand, you know, going into the trades such as plumbing and such like that. I mean, there's always going to be a need for a plumber per se and maybe not an accountant or a junior lawyer where vast swaths of white collar jobs will be wiped out. Because a couple of law firms that I work with, you know, I coach within, they don't hire fleets of junior lawyers anymore to go through the books to find something. They'll just use AI. And the AI can find it within minutes, if not seconds, some sort of whatever they're looking for to prove their case or prove their point. And so how realistically is it, as you said, for people to upscale? They may have the mindset, I need to improve, I want to go, But they're kind of stuck. They're 40 plus, 50 plus at some point. You know, then I can see someone who's 20 was the flexibility and then the know-how and such. But again, it's not always an age, but it could be a mindset thing.

[34:31] This sort of what did you call it? The the the useless class or the.

[34:37] You know, like it's you can see that what happens in that case, right? Does that create ghettos? Does that create stratification of layers through society, which you already have, but will that become even more intense?

[34:52] It might be. And I would...

[34:56] I wouldn't necessarily say that this is only a question of age. Firstly, because I've seen golden ages, extremely agile and capable and wanting to embrace new technologies. My father is 84 and he is WhatsApping and emailing. I find that sometimes pretty impressive when I struggle with my online banking.

[35:21] So it's not necessarily a question of age. I think it's a question of attitude plus opportunity. And you've mentioned this example of, you know, for example, law firms not wanting to hire junior lawyers because the low-hanging fruit,

[35:41] the simple tasks will be performed by an AI. And there I think we touch another extremely interesting topic, to which I don't have the answer, by the way. No, no, no. I don't think anyone does right now. So we're seeing a system where, let's say, the easier at the beginning of the process tasks can easily be answered by an AI. So if we stay with the legal example, the first draft of a contract can now very, very quickly and very easily done by a trained AI just because it has seen millions of these kinds of contracts. You know what it is about. It knows the clauses. So, with some kind of good prompting, you will get this first work done, what previously a trainee, a junior lawyer would have had to do. And he would have learned something by writing up this contract and then getting input and doing it again and again and again. And he does this for years. And then he becomes trained.

[36:45] Now, what we will see is that a, let's say, a large corporation hires a specialist lawyer and say, no, no, no, no, you're not going to charge me like 10 billable hours for like getting this done. This is what our AI is going to do. I just want like three hours of your super senior experienced lawyer to challenge this and, you know, go with me into the negotiation with, I don't know, my takeover target, the company. So you just want to have this super expertise, knowledge, what you will want to pay for and where you see an added benefit. But then the question is, how did that person get to this level to be this expert that we now seek?

[37:34] Right. That person has become the expert because of the path that we are starting to eradicate. You know that path was being like the junior associate it was being the intern it was like reading all these contracts of writing it up of getting it wrong of being frustrated of being told off of working through the night and doing it again and again and again and again and that's how we build this human expertise or topical expertise in something and the great upside side of AI maybe is also its biggest downside, that we can leap jump these stages of learning because the AI can just do it, it's so fast. But if we leap jump this, you know, what does it do to the now 20-year-old law student?

[38:33] How is he going to learn this level of expertise that we would require from him when he's 40 or 50? And, you know, I think we will see this in many ways now. Like, how do we combine the benefits of the technology to accelerate things, to become more efficient?

[38:51] Just, you know, just, you know, go quickly over all these ground steps and focus on the hard stuff. Now how are we going to do this i think that's very interesting when you're talking about sort of leapfrogging you know we you know where the learning where there is a learning curve and it's the subtleties it's the small nuances that we learn to stitch together the entire knowledge it was very interesting i think about six months ago i was reading an article about sort of general practitioners you know our family doctor where that maybe in the future might peter out it might disappear because you know you know general practitioner he or she will pull from their experience but sometimes you know you we have these things like sniffles or cough or sore throat but it can mean many different things but what was interesting is the the science writer talked about how the ai will be so much more efficient in being able to diagnose right there and then within minutes what actually is the problem and then it'll speed up that process so the question of general practitioners. Will they disappear?

[40:01] And to some extent, well, maybe they'll be a practitioner, but with an AI assistant per se. And the Science Friday was also talking about how in the medical world, things have become even more specialized. You will have specialized a person for a liver or a kidney or for something even more micro.

[40:21] So I just find that interesting. Forgive me, but I just wanted to kind of make that connection. And the question is, those specialists, how do they go through? And I guess it comes back to what we talked about earlier about education, where the AI might create a very bespoke way of teaching someone, where the doctor may not have to know all the little minor details. But because of that augmented reality or that connection he or she has with the technology, maybe they themselves are able to diagnose at a greater level. Again, like my son, being able to use AI as a tool to create more agency, to create a faster process in which he creates his whatever, his image or whatever he's developing. But that doctors or lawyers may be able to do this.

[41:13] Again, I'm just kind of my brain is just kind of spitting out a lot of things. But it comes back to what you're saying. It's about the leapfrogging and the learning curve, the experience that can refine our approach to different challenges in life. And I think we are, again, also coming back to your question initially, like what's up on the horizon? I think up on the horizon is a future where it's all about human-machine collaboration, so where the human complements the machine and vice versa. So staying with your example of the medical doctor, I think the machine will be of great It might help to assist experts in making their diagnosis, in double-checking.

[42:05] So there is a huge upside in that. And I think over time, the acceptance will also go up because we haven't touched

[42:15] upon this yet, the trust in technology, the acceptance of something. Thing so if you go to a doctor and you have a serious illness and you have the choice of you know speaking only to an AI that will make a diagnosis and then suggest a certain path of treatment and it has been trained by millions and millions and millions of cases that is one choice and the other choice is that you go to the super expert doctor in this field who has treated many many patients and has spent his entire career and he will do a recommendation so what do you choose right and I think today we still see that um.

[42:59] People like or desire the human interaction and the human expertise and think like, yeah, but what if the machine just gets something wrong? It's harder for us to associate with the numerical values of the probabilities of if the machine gets it right or wrong. You would want to speak to the doctor and understand the stories that he told about his previous experience. Now, probably the truth or the ideal solution is in the middle, where both bring their benefits together and we create a future where the best capabilities of both areas can be leveraged. Today, you will also still have a problem of liabilities and accountabilities. So if a human did something wrong or right, it's very clear to follow that through and say okay this person said XYZ or did this.

[44:01] When an algorithm gets something wrong it's still very unclear, then who is responsible is it OpenAI in the back end who wrote the large language model and then came out something Was it the company that deployed the algorithm? So there is still a lot of uncertainty, actually, also legally, how this is going to play out in terms of accountability. And that is also still impacting of how willing we are in relevant situations to jump on the technology and make that something that we might become liable for. But i looking again at the bright side i think there is a lot of potential in this human machine interaction it just has to be done wisely and consciously and that spins back the loop to what we discussed at the beginning about agency of like the human keeping its agency its autonomy in its decision-making, its intent, its responsibility, and not just handing this over entirely to an algorithm.

[45:15] Yeah, it's an incredible space in which to have this discussion because, you know, there was another article I read where, you know, the AI is able to go through looking for new antibiotics or new vaccines for such things, where the AI is able to go through trillions, literally trillions of different formulations in parallel and come up with a number of suggestions and why. Why? And I can only see this increasing where maybe diseases that we have now that are by bacterias or viruses and such, they may not even be a thing in the future. And coming back to what you said, if we looked at sort of more of the positive side, where I don't think it's either or, I need to talk to a machine or I need to talk to an experienced doctor. I think it's exactly what you articulate, somewhere in the midway, where i think back to the top of this conversation when you're talking about education where the focus will be more on the psychosocial emotional um connection between human beings where we talk about empathy where we talk about compassion where we talk about relating and understanding communicating and collaboration and i i could see if we bring that funnel it down to the doctor where that doctor he or she has had this psychosocial emotional intelligence that we can simply call bedside manner but with an augmented assistant ai.

[46:44] That human being will be able to tell the patient to walk him or her through what the challenges are. Because I agree with you, at the end of the day, regardless of the technology we have and how advanced it gets, human beings are still human beings. We need that social connection. That's how our brains are wired. That social-emotional cohesion that we need with others. And so I agree with you. It'll probably be somewhere in the midway. But maybe I'm painting a very flowery, rose-colored future. But that's all i hope it goes an optimistic view actually i get told off here at home by my family then i'm like the dark uh lady just looking at the at the negative sides and i do admit i have sometimes a bit of a pessimistic view but just to use you said something um beautifully here like i mean in the essence we we are humans with our human strengths and that's That's why I think what we're currently living through is so transformational, because in any other previous development that humanity has seen before, we were still the only biological, intelligence on the planet.

[48:02] We are on the top of the food chain, and we make conscious decisions. So when the printing press was invented, that was a major invention about the distribution of knowledge of communication. So that was huge at the time.

[48:21] But still, it was humans who could decide when and how they would want to use the machine. They would decide which content they would want to have printed and distributed and in what quantity. So it was a human decision behind that. It was the human intelligence. But now we have entered a space from which on I think it's never ever going to be the same anymore. Now there is another intelligence not a biological intelligence an artificial intelligence and that's what the term very rightfully says there is now a i don't know being sometimes i don't even know how to relate to and that is already capable to reason to take decisions without me as a human getting involved it's the algorithm that makes a decision that it should recommend you this movie to watch there was no netflix programmer behind to say like you need to send jason this recommendation it was a machine that studied you that studied your customer behavior data that studied millions of other.

[49:35] People and took a decision that it's going to send you this movie and it's learning it's getting better by itself without us intervening and that is a new form of intelligence that has never been there on earth and it's just exponentially getting better um and this is eventually going to so that's why i'm saying like humanity now is definitely by going into a different direction because we are not the only intelligence anymore this may be for another conversation but just to touch on it you know when ai and when quantum computing becomes fully online in the next whatever 10 15 years maybe earlier than that then what do you have you know that's a a whole different level of intelligence and the question is does the artificial intelligence actually become sentient does it see this is me like we we can't prove there's consciousness out there but you and i can say yeah that's me we can look into the mirror and say there is something inside and that's one thing brain science neuroscience cognitive sciences has not even touch-based what is consciousness and again this is a totally full of i don't mean to go down this rabbit hole but i just wanted to mention it with ai sentience and quantum computing.

[51:02] What is that going to bring but i just wanted to kind of touch base on that i'd like just to recycle back to you teach courses to managers and different organizations and uh industries.

[51:15] You know, what is your main concern when they perceive what's coming, when it comes to embracing this new technology? I mean, what are some of the suggestions you're making or advice that you're sharing? Yeah, very good point to bring it back a bit on our globe. Yeah, so I'm interacting a lot with managers that are working in companies already dealing with AI. And so I think the picture that we see is that it's not only a hype, it has really materialized. Almost every company is in some way or other, at least talking about AI, not all of them doing, but it's on everybody's agenda. Everybody's aware. And I think that's a very good thing.

[52:03] So almost all decision have understood that this technology is extremely relevant for them to embrace because it will have competitive impact on their business so if they don't do anything sooner or later they are going to be at a disadvantage, that being said the reality that we see is that.

[52:29] There's a nice quote um ai is extremely difficult to get right but easy to mess up, so um you know you you you can crack your head what's the right way of doing it and then you start playing around and try to implement things and then it's really really easy to mess that process up. Because one of the things that we see, it's a bit of a misconception.

[52:59] AI is not just another software upgrade, like a small project that you do end-to-end and then kind of you do a tick mark and then you have done AI. So what we see managers struggle with is that they say, okay, we have all this ambition, everybody's talking about AI, and we've started all these initiatives and we have a bunch of use cases in our portfolio and there's all these town hall talks and stuff and we do AI but somehow we don't see any benefit materializing and things kind of get stuck and we we you know we're somewhere on the earliest steps of the path but we don't really know how to you know bring the ball over the line and just really actually see impact and I think that is a very true observation, which you start seeing materializing on a larger scale as well. Like if you look at some of the recent news articles and also a study from Goldman Sachs.

[54:05] I'm not saying it's a bubble. I'm just saying that there is a lot of investment, specifically in generative AI, and we yet fail to see the actual true benefit, like the value that has been created from it. And that is because it is really, really hard. As I mentioned, it's not just a software upgrade. It's a new way of working. It will change processes. It will change organizational setup in a company. It requires different skills. So AI will have connections in many, many dimensions. And very often a company focuses on, okay, let's define our AI strategy. We have our vision. Now we need to get the tech right. So let's hire some tech people and invest money in our infrastructure. And then it's going to go right. Only not, because you then start to see that your processes need to be changed, that the people need to be brought along and understand what this means. And that is a process that is very lengthy and very complex. And this is where we only start to see the beginnings of it.

[55:25] It's almost like trailblazing. I mean, there's, as you said, there may not be someone who's been before us in a particular industry or particular company. And what they're doing is actually, you know, with a machete cutting through the jungle, trying to find their way to where they need to get going. And for me, to some extent, when AI is coming into a certain industry, it's almost like literally not reinventing the wheel, but inventing the wheel. You know, it's trying, who do you learn from? I mean, as you said, a lot of it may be trial and error, might be hit and miss trying to find the right way.

[56:01] And, you know, I've had a couple of innovation experts here on the show. And I think the idea of innovative thinking, sort of this moonshot thinking when it comes to innovation, I think that kind of mindset really needs to be brought into a company where you have people who can think about this, who have the know-how or the intellectual capacity to create more buoyant ideas, to play with different ideas, and who are not afraid of maybe failing or making mistakes, but as steps of learning. And I think for me, working with all sorts of industries, what I work with, I think the slowest element is the human psyche, bringing people on to accept change. People are not so much afraid of change, but they're afraid of being changed, from my experience. And I think that is the element. It takes time to, as you said, to bring people up to speed, to get their buying, to get their sense of ownership. For me, it's a very complicated thing when you're talking about an industry bringing AI, but also the people themselves when we're talking about reinventing themselves or upskilling.

[57:14] Yeah, and I think that's a very good point that you mentioned there, because the technology of AI is also growing at a speed and magnitude that is unprecedented to anything that we've seen before. And that's just like leaving people breathless, like there is no time to catch up. There's always something new and it's just like on and on and on. And I think that's an element that overpowers people psychologically, but also factually, because the development is just so fast. But it also brings about an interesting discussion, which is a question I sometimes get from all course participants, saying kind of...

[57:56] Should we now really jump into this and train our people and experiment and waste a lot of money and then build maybe some solution for our process?

[58:07] And in two years, there is going to be the next version of, you say,

[58:13] the next super language model that has multiple agents, multimodality exponentially, I don't know. And it can do itself just by a voice command. man like and then it's kind of all obsolete what we're trying to now learn and achieve and then in two three or four years there's going to be an easy solution to that should we not just rather wait and then grab that solution and that is a that is a very interesting discussion and again maybe there is not one true answer because industries and companies are very different I personally, though, would recommend always in this aspect that there is a benefit in the learning process, as you just mentioned, also in creating this innovation spirit of, you know, nurturing that attitude. Attitude it's worthwhile starting to experiment now maybe to fail but there is a learning and the failure and yes maybe in three to four years there is another solution coming out that makes some of the things that you've built obsolete but you have invested these years in your organization to give it time to learn to to experiment with that to start some of this change process that you mentioned, because that change process takes time.

[59:31] And so there is a benefit in starting early and even if it's small. So in a defined environment, it doesn't need to cost millions, but you know, just start in some place of your organization and start learning from it. And I think that that would always be my advice.

[59:53] And I think that brings us back to the trailhead of our conversation when we talked about education and the new generations coming through, right? You know, after Gen Z, whatever they're going to be called, Alpha or what? Is it Alpha? Okay, okay. I'm losing track. But I think it's just that. I think, as you said, it's not learning things by rote, memorizing facts and such. But I think it comes back down to teaching kids at a really early level, critical thinking, innovative thinking, creativity. It's okay to fail. It's okay to mess up. Because I think this is what the next generations will need, those human skills. And again, back to something you so eloquently said, it's the social aspect. It's the psychosocial, emotional element that's creating us as human beings. But honestly, I think if we can focus on those fundamentals that we don't generally focus on in the education system. And again, I speak from only my perspective that I know of.

[1:00:57] But I think these human skills are going to be so much more apparent,

[1:01:03] as you said, when it comes to the organizations. Organizations um and very respectfully your time carolyn i was wondering what last thoughts would you like to live leave with our listeners today whether they are leaders in organizations or they're thinking about making the next change or career or how they can think about ai well well first of all i would maybe want to say people that we start acknowledging and maybe also be appreciative of this amazing moment we're living like we are a special generation or few generations that lives the birth of this amazing new technology um so this is a great moment to be honored um together with it comes a lot of responsibility so my my second message would be like, be aware of what's happening and try and be engaged, involved.

[1:02:03] Since it's so young, since it's so early, we don't know where this is going. And again, I don't want to go in speculations of like singularity, AI being sentient, et cetera. But if this were even a very remote option, I would just encourage everybody to have a bit of a pedagogical view you on how you interact with AI, like how you would like to interact with another person, like kind of polite, sharing beautiful thoughts.

[1:02:36] Using AI for good, maybe, if I can summarize that in a naive sentence. And then my third point would probably be like embrace it, use it, experiment. It's not going to go away. It can be there to help us. So make the best out of it. And that's really just by playing around with it, downloading a couple of tools and using it and getting to know it. Yeah, when I'm interacting with chat or whatever AI, you know, Gemini or such, I find myself saying please and thank you to the AI. I do that too. That's a good way. Well, Carolyn, thank you very much for your time. It's been a very stimulating conversation. My brain is going down so many avenues into the future and how this can play out. and there's no dead ends there. It just keeps expanding, expanding, expanding. So thank you for such an enlightening conversation today. I thank you very much for having me on your podcast show. It was a pleasure. You can tell that I'm really, really enthusiastic about this topic. It keeps my mind spinning most of the day. So thank you for giving me the opportunity.

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[1:03:56] To share some of the thoughts.

[1:04:02] Well, today we've delved into the fascinating world of artificial intelligence, exploring its myriad benefits and its potential risks. As we've learned, AI can revolutionize industries, enhance our daily lives, and, well, solve complex problems. But it also brings challenges like job displacement, ethical dilemmas, and privacy concerns. To navigate this rapidly evolving landscape, we must stay informed, advocate for responsible AI development, and foster adaptability in our skills and our mindsets. And as Carolyn said, it's not to be frightened by the technology, but it's to approach it with, to be cognizant, to be curious about how the AI will influence us. But it's also to ask ourselves questions, to critically think about how much of our agency do we give up to artificial intelligence. And as we all know, we cannot stop the march of progress, the march of technology. It is a brave new world and it has already arrived. The vanguard of artificial intelligence is on our doorstep. And I'm sure, very sure this is not the final conversation. This is just the opening salvo. Carolyn a personal thank you from me to you for spending some time with me today and sharing your opinions, your insights and your knowledge about artificial intelligence.

[1:05:27] The good and the bad of what it may bring to us, the risks and the benefits. So thank you. It was a very fascinating conversation. Well, if you are interested to learn more, I will leave all of Carolyn's contact information in the show notes. If there is someone you know who you think would be fascinated and intrigued by this conversation, please share the episode with them. And if you're in your Apple podcast or you're in Spotify, take a moment and share that five-star rating and maybe a thought or two of what you think about the podcast. It helps me to spread the word. Well, thank you for allowing me to be part of your week and I will see you next time around where we continue this conversation about resilience, leadership, and well-being. So until then...

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