How to Use Life's Spaces for Creative Breakthroughs, Resilience, Wellbeing & Personal Growth.

Ever felt like life is moving too fast, leaving little room for reflection? This episode offers a refreshing take on finding those crucial spaces in our lives that allow for self-reflection and creative growth.

In this episode, I have the pleasure of diving deep into the concept of space and creativity with Lisa Hopkins. Lisa has dedicated her career to empowering creative professionals in the entertainment industry and has recently authored the book The Places Where There Are Spaces: Cultivating a Life of Creative Possibilities. Together, we explore how creating and recognizing spaces in our lives can lead to deeper self-awareness, resilience, and a more fulfilling life.

By listening to this episode, you can:

• Discover the Importance of Space: Learn how creating and holding space can help you avoid running on autopilot and ensure that your pursuits align with your core values.
• Enhance Self-Reflection: Understand how to use these spaces for self-reflection and reconnection with your true self.
• Cultivate Creative Possibilities: Explore how these intervals can foster creativity and open up new potentials in your life.

Three Benefits You'll Gain:

1. Greater Awareness: Learn how to be more aware of the spaces between your actions and thoughts, leading to better decision-making.
2. Improved Emotional Regulation: Discover the power of creating spaces to process emotions before reacting, which can enhance your emotional well-being.
3. Increased Creativity: Understand how to use these spaces to tap into your creative potential and explore new possibilities in your personal and professional life.

Learn how to create and hold space in your life, leading to greater self-awareness, creativity, and fulfillment.

Bio:
Lisa Hopkins is an award winning communicator and ICF Certified Professional Life Coach, CORE Performance Dynamics Specialist and Energy Leadership Master Practitioner at Wide Open Stages. A “Creative Energy Optimizer”, Lisa specializes in working with creative professionals in the entertainment industry. She is an expert at shifting mindset & energy and using her intuition to tap into her client’s highest potential and uncover what is holding them back from leading their created life. A passionate artistic professional herself, Lisa has over 30 years of experience working in the performing arts industry in NYC as a director, choreographer, producer, writer and dance educator. She is the Communicator Award winning host of the popular podcast STOPTIME: Live in the Moment.

Book:
The Places Where There Are Space: Cultivating a Life of Creative Possibilities.

Contact:
STOPTIME  Podcast: https://stoptimeliveinthemoment.buzzsprout.com/
Website:  https://www.wideopenstages.com/
Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/wideopenstages/
LinkedIn: @LisaHopkins

Chapters

• 0:08 Introduction to Resilience
• 0:43 Meet Lisa Hopkins
• 2:37 The Concept of Space
• 8:08 Creating Spaces for Reflection
• 29:51 Navigating Personal Storms
• 34:22 Understanding Energetic Choices
• 40:34 Self-Care and Foundation Building
• 46:37 The Power of Storytelling
• 56:50 Lessons from Writing
• 1:04:49 Final Thoughts on Openness
• 1:05:52 Conclusion and Call to Action

Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:08] Back to It's an Inside Job podcast. I'm your host, Jason Liem. Now, this podcast is dedicated to helping you to help yourself and others to become more mentally and emotionally resilient so you can be better at bouncing back from life's inevitable setbacks. Now, on It's an Inside Job, we decode the science and stories of resilience into practical advice, skills, and strategies that you can use to impact your life and those around you. Now, with that said, let's slip into the stream.

[0:36] Music.

[0:44] Welcome back to the show. It's an inside job. I'm your host, Jason Leim. In this week's episode, I am joined by my guest, a dynamic and vivacious personality, Lisa Hopkins. Now she's an award winning communicator. She's also an energy leadership master practitioner at wide open stages. She's dedicated her career to empowering creative professionals in the entertainment industry. Now, she has over 30 years of experience as a director, choreographer, producer, writer, and dance educator from New York City. She's a true creative energy optimizer, specializing in shifting mindset and energy to help her clients tap into their highest potential. In our conversation, Lisa delves into the concept of space, those essential yet yet often overlooked intervals that are dotted throughout our lives. Now, she draws from her newly released book, The Places Where There Are Spaces, Cultivating a Life of Creative Possibility, where she discusses how these spaces, always present yet seldom noticed.

[1:49] Well, how they are crucial for self-reflection and reconnection with our true selves. She emphasizes the importance of creating and holding these spaces to avoid running on autopilot to ensure that our pursuits align with our core values and purpose. Okay, but anyways, I don't want to give too much away in the introduction. I don't want to be like one of those movie trailers that you've already figured out the entire plot of the movie. So there's a lot to explore for you guys in this episode, and I really hope you enjoy it, because I did very much. So without further ado, let's slip into the stream and meet Issa Hopkins.

[2:25] Music.

[2:38] Thank you. So great to be here. Could we kick off by you introducing who you are and what you do? Sure. I'm a life and leadership coach. I call myself Creative Energy Optimizer.

[2:50] I work primarily with high performers in the creative arts industry as a coach.

[2:58] Also as a concierge, as a trusted advisor, that kind of a thing. I'm super, super passionate about helping people make an impact in the world. And so I love partnering with those folks in order to help them reach their highest potential. So that's something that is really close to my heart. I am a lifelong performing artist. So I spent most of my life and career in New York City as a director, choreographer, and dance educator. I was on faculty at Pace University in New York City in the commercial dance and musical theater program. So, you know, a lot of my students were either already on Broadway or in movies or whatever or on their way. So very high, you know, highly talented folks. I'm super interested in the human behind the headlines. So I'm a podcaster and that's kind of my byline. It's called Stop Time, Live in the Moment. But for me it's about holding space for creative people um you know that isn't a press junket so really it's where where my two worlds come together where these people are meeting me as a coach not as um as a peer um and so that's become very very integral part of my practice so yeah i don't know it gives you a little bit about me i'm a mother i'm a wife i'm a daughter i uh am absolutely a proponent of living creatively.

[4:24] I'm an author now. That's right. I've got to remember that. I recently, I'm like, oh yeah. And now I can actually say I'm an author. So I recently published my new book, which we'll probably talk a little bit about. And that's super exciting for me. So yeah. Yeah. That's what I'd really like to kind of dive into. Obviously, you know, your Broadway experience, and the whole gambit of that. Because in July, you released The Places Where There Are Spaces, Cultivating a Life of Creative Possibilities.

[4:59] And when I was kind of going through the notes and understanding what the more and more of the book was about, that's why I really wanted you on the show. Because as we've talked about, Lisa, pre-show, show that, you know, we on the show, we try to focus a lot on resilience, leadership and well being. And I think your book kind of hits all those points. And, and creativity and curiosity for me are, are definite character traits that add to this big picture that we call resilience. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I was wondering, maybe you could maybe kick off, when you talk about creative energy, you introduced yourself as part of what you do. What does that mean? Can you operationally define that? That's a fantastic question. Yes. So I believe that we all have access to living creatively, and it does not mean being in the creative arts. So, you know, I think the clarification and distinction is important because even though my background is in the arts and a lot of my clients naturally gravitate towards me because I speak their language.

[6:11] It's for me, I have lived my life creatively and that has nothing to do with paint or dance or music or any of that. It's really about a mindset. It's really about being able to look at things in creative ways, to be faced with an obstacle or an opportunity, you know, and to be able to look at it with curiosity and with that creative brain and, you know, meet it where it's at and really live into the world of choice, if that makes sense. So, for me, creativity is that. And the book, you know, if you think, oh, I'm not a creative person or I'm not a professional creative person, because you are a creative person, P.S., everybody is. But if you, you know, this isn't about your, you know, and maybe I'll read a little bit from it, I don't know, but it's...

[7:06] It's not about that. I mean, it's my context in some of the stories, right? But I'm not talking about the dancing. I'm talking about my relationship in my mindset with what I'm seeing and what I'm learning. When my mentor talked to me about shading my movement, how that became an epiphany for me. Yes, as a dancer, it was a great tool. But as an artist of life, it became, you know, almost an affirmation and an understanding and also a lesson in how to continue to embrace the many shades of who I am, just as a human, and not what we're doing, but who we are being. Yeah, because I guess the main premise of your book, or the central idea, is spaces, is creating spaces. And for me, when I was going through my notes about your book, you know, when a lot of us are in very fast-paced lives, and,

[8:03] you know, change and uncertainty comes at us at a remarkable pace right now. And many of my clients tend to be reacting. It's like putting out the fires, constantly putting out the fires, not pre-managing situations.

[8:17] And your book kind of resonated with me because what you were speaking to, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's creating spaces. That might be a physical space. That might be a mental space, a pause button per se in which we can stop think and reflect before we act and i in your book it's filled with anecdotes and stories or there's a red thread that kind of connects all these but maybe you can expand on what creating spaces as a central theme of your book and then maybe we can dive into particular things such as mindsets but such as resilience and such yeah for sure so for For me, the places where there are spaces are the places between.

[9:02] Between things like where you're not looking I believe that they're always there I just believe that we don't stop long enough to see them so yes we can learn how to create space and to hold space for ourselves and for others and for ideas and for all these things but we can also learn how to be like a lot of these musings of mine in the book are about you know they're not necessarily like like epiphany moments or, you know what I mean? They're not like, this has just changed my life or there are moments that you'll be able to relate to the inner message, I think.

[9:38] And so for me, these were places where there are spaces, right? So, I mean, it's funny because I mentioned at the beginning, and again, maybe I'll share with you, but the, you know, I call it the places where the fairies reside, you know, it's a magical place. It's the place between the leap and the the landing. It's the place between the question and the answer. It's the place between all of those. It's the place between, you know, me being late for our interview and me being early or whatever we make it, right? So it's all about, it's just everywhere. And I think we miss them. We miss them time and time again. And so for me, it's not sort of a cautionary tale of don't miss, you know it's not that literal um for me i realize and recognize that.

[10:33] I live creatively and creatively doesn't mean how people see me when i'm doing my creative thing if that makes sense so so it's it's lit so i think that's that's hence the sort of subtitle right cultivating a life of creative possibilities because these are all again moments you know in my life, some of them are learning, some of them are teachings, but, but, you know, I, sometimes I make up a story, right? There's a, I have a thing called the milestone myth, you know, which, which I create a, a, a mother and a daughter and, and their perspectives of, you know, when it comes to May 1st or whatever the decision day is. And you can really relate to that. You know, I, you know, I have adult people, you could not have a child and, you know, or, but you can all relate to the idea that you think you want to do something. You don't really consider why.

[11:26] Right. So, again, you know, I don't know if you want to dig into the space thing, you know, you might go, well, what does that have to do with space? You go, well, it's it's space in its space in that race also to to doing what you think you're supposed to do to to doing something because it's expected to doing something right. The space to stop and ask yourself, why is it important to me? Because why it's important to you is going to be completely different why it's important to me. And as a teacher, when I was teaching dance in particular.

[12:05] I would say to the students, and it's a very high bar to get into the program I was teaching in, but I would say to those first years, you know young people right 18 years old I would say to them congratulations I just you know this may sound counterintuitive but it's probably been super exciting you know all your whole life being told that you're talented and you're doing these competitions and you're you know you're checking it all off you're you're making your way and you you know I'm sure you loved it at some point and maybe you still do but here's the thing is you're here now and the social media posts have been made and everyone celebrated you. And now you're here, right here in this open space, in this classroom with me. And hopefully you'll learn something from me. But what I want you first to learn is that you do not have to be here. Connect to why.

[13:05] Redefine why now all the time, right? So it's like, you know, you ask someone, why are you doing that? I don't know, because I want to, whatever, I want to be famous. I want to be on Broadway. I want to, whatever it is. That's great, right? It's great. I'm not saying don't have, you know, don't have goals and don't be excited. But when you get there, if you lose track of your why, if you don't hold space in each moment for reconnecting with that, then you're on autopilot, right? And then you're just done literally on the fast track. We all hear about this, right? And what happens with that, of course, is it's unsustainable, right? Even though you're doing the thing that you thought you wanted to do, and it may be the thing you wanted to do. But then, you know, I work with a lot of famous people. people they get known just for what they did so they they need to create for themselves to to remember who who they are and why they wanted to do what they do in the first place because what happens is it becomes you know they're performing for for other people's reasons showing up in the way so if you're like the best in you and it translates to everything right if you're the if you're if you're known for something right so people that meet me here on your podcast they'll go, oh yeah, she's the dot, dot, dot. And they'll, they'll, they'll put me in a, right.

[14:20] But if you met me at the grocery store, you'd call me something else. Or if you met me in a dance class, oh, she's the dancer. Or if you met me in Canada, you go, oh, she's the American or is she Canadian? Or you'd put me in a box, right? So holding space for other people, holding, you know, so for me, it's all about connecting with yourself. I mean, I literally just said to somebody the other day, and I'm sure you've heard this a million times in your, in your own words or said it yourself, but, you know, there's only two sure things in life, only two, because we tend to make everything yes or no binary, right? But there are only two sure things in life, and that's life and death.

[14:55] Everything in between that is choice. Everything, no matter how hard your life is. I'm not, you know, I'm not talking about, you know, living your best life and sitting on, you know, sitting on the beach or whatever, but I'm talking about every moment, like the moment that I texted Jason and told him, oh my God, I put the, I put our time, he's like, I'm in the Zoom room and I'm, you know, I'm, I am notorious for actually being right on time. Like I, that never happens to me, but it happened. So, so I could have gone, you know, I, I held space for myself. I created a space and thought, well, here I am talking about it. So it's generated something else. Whereas if I, if I decided to say, oh, I got to show Jason that I'm actually a really responsible person, oh my God, oh my God, then it's all about ego. It's all about me. But that's not who I am, right? That's not who I want to be. And so I will hold space for myself. And that's, it allows space for our mistakes, because then we can learn from our mistakes.

[15:57] Right. And so on and so forth. And, you know, you can. Yeah. So I don't know if that's helpful, but that's very helpful because I think creating spaces that for me, in a sense, and maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but between stimulus and response is that gap we can create. Right. right? Before we react, we can, yeah, exactly. You know, man searched for meaning, but it's, it is, it is that, you know, something can come at me and I can just react, but creating spaces, whether that's psychological space, whether it's actual physical and emotional space allows time for processing. You know, once we are there, then it'd be, it's a matter, it's It's kind of going through the steps. It's easy. But when we are under the pressure, when the tension and the stress and the anxiety is on, it is so easy for myself. And I work with this every week, every day with clients. I can slip down into the rabbit hole and forget about that, even though I've talked about this for decades, literally and metaphorically, I guess. But my point is, you've talked, I mean, we don't need to name names here, but you've worked with people who are household names. Everybody knows who they are, down to the first year students who have the privilege of working with you in whatever esteemed institution that you worked with.

[17:21] But what is some of your advice to help people to be cognizant, to stop up, to create the space? because sometimes that's where it goes. It just falls through the cracks and we just react.

[17:35] Yeah, it's funny because I think there's a misunderstanding that it's about... It's like it's an action item. Like, how do I do that? And that would be a natural question. Well, how do I do that? And I think it's... My answer to that is awareness.

[17:53] When we are aware... Then we are more open. When we are triggered under stress, we're more closed. So if you think of it as a lens, right, of the way of looking at something, it's literally that. And you know this as well as I do, Jason. So this is, it's about living life wide open, but not always the same aperture let's say so but but the awareness piece because because you know wide open you know if you if you i always use this sort of thing you know but if you think of wide open or if you want you know wide open you think about i think about these as lenses right so so that you're very narrowly focused down here in fight or flight right or freeze and it's the more catabolic energy and then as you as you move up the scale you're just more conscious right but it's but it's not a typing thing. This is what I work with people. So they think, well, I want to be up at the top of that wide open all the time. They go, no, you don't.

[18:59] Because you wouldn't be human if you're up there all the time. We are a mix of all of this. All the time we're a mix. We have our default energies for sure. And it's drawing awareness around where our defaults are under stress and also when things are going really well for us. That's also fantastic information because sometimes we default to our strengths and we overlook other things.

[19:26] Or if you want to apply that to something, to our certain tastes, maybe like, I love that restaurant, I'm going to that restaurant again. As opposed to, I do love that restaurant, what else might be available to me in this moment? Is that what I want right now? right so it's about it's about not living so narrowly so my advice would be to draw awareness that we are diverse as humans internally all the time that there's no one way of being that we are a unique blend of our own energies but we do have defaults for sure right so the way i default on distress is going to be different than you and it's also going to be different depending on the the stressor for me and for you or whoever, and also on, you know, on the time of the stressor on how you're feeling, what other influencers are going on for you. So we build, we build our repertoire of understanding self. That's what I do a lot of with my clients. So that, cause again, they're high performers, right? So they're used to success. They're used to achievement. They don't come in and go, Oh my God, I'm having such a problem. I'm so burned out. Like that's not, that's not where they resonate sometimes they come in and just have a feeling that there's there's something there's something more and you know they're they're in circles where it's difficult to say that because from outside everyone's saying to them.

[20:48] You got it you got it all man you know and and and that sort of thing and so but and and not all my not all my clients are you know a-list people um but they're you know and it's it's more about being ready to do the work, to understand that it's intrinsic. I'm not going to give you a 12-step plan. You know how to make a 12-step plan. If you want to do that, you're wasting your time with me, but sure.

[21:14] But I do coach around insight, right? Because one insight changes everything. But only if you do something with it so again only if you create space for the insight because how are you going to apply that now you can have someone say well how are you going to apply that and then and then you can you know take it to action and create your own world you know to go from the intrinsic to the extreme it's definitely applicable right so you don't you don't live forever in the land of you know of of the alt you know altruistic inner inner work it's a lot of inner work but then we apply it and what what we realize is that it doesn't apply just to the thing that that where you've been really always doing that right like like you were saying like you know years and years i get stressed and i do i you know i respond and react in the same way, so that's awareness you bring awareness around that and then you you we play sometimes we play a little bit with what would be different if if you responded differently even if you don't what What might be different? And, you know, I talk about living in the land of possibilities rather than probabilities.

[22:24] Because, you know, the probabilities are great when we know what our strengths are. But our strengths can absolutely become our weaknesses. I see it time and time again. I've seen it with myself, right? Where you just keep... Sorry, so when our strengths become weaknesses, for example, if someone says, I'm honest, I'm honest in every case. For me, all these sort of strengths, when we look at them, we're kind of like bell curves. And, you know, as we build up the bell curve, that's great because we're developing and there's a sweet spot at the top, at the peak, but where strengths can sometimes become disadvantages in my vernacular.

[23:02] So when we head down the backside of that bell curve, where it starts to actually maybe bite us, in a sense. What do you mean? Yeah, no, I'm curious. What do you mean, bite you in what sense? Well, for example, if someone says, I'm honest, I'm an honest person, right? I'm transparent in everything. I think that's great to a certain point. But there may be a point where maybe it's best to tell a white lie and not be brutally honest with everything about everything you're thinking. Because that can affect us in a sense where there can be downsides to things where people say, I'm very thorough or I'm very conscientious. Well, there's a point where you can be conscientious, but there is a point where you're so conscientious that you're sacrificing the me always for the we, for the other person. And we don't respect ourselves. So is this kind of, I don't know if it's the same sort of area you're talking about where strength becomes a weakness, or maybe you could speak to that. Yes. I mean, I completely hear what you're saying. Um, what stands out to me about what you're saying and is, is that I would go further. And I do this a lot with my clients is, is to be more, uh, I guess, granular with our words, right? To be more specific and bespoke to what these words mean to us.

[24:26] I think that's so important that we don't, because the brain, I use the analogy of chat, GBT or whatever, right? Of AI. The brain has only the information and data based on, it's incredible, but it only has data based on what you've done or what it knows or what it's seen or what you tell it. So if you If you say, I'm afraid of public speaking, it's going to find all the reasons to tell you, don't do that because you're going to be in danger because you're afraid of that. Right? So, if you flip it to say, you know, I'm... You know, it makes me nervous, but I am strong and actually, or whatever, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? You can, you can re reframe that, but to your, to your point, the word that you used when you said, when you said honesty as a strength, I probably.

[25:27] Would talk to the client and say, well, is it, is it more a value or a strength? Strengths and the reason i say that because the way i think of strengths in this context, are ways of being because everyone's always talking about ways of being right they want to know like about actionable stuff when i'm this oh this is how i do things this is how i get shit done this is how i write or whatever and um this is what people know me for this is this i'm great at this and i'll do that and so yes to your point absolutely sometimes you take on too much because Because, right, everyone expects it of you and so on and so forth. So that it can bite you in that way. But I think ultimately it's you telling yourself that you're good at this as well. And that you start to believe that it's the only way to do something. And so you rely on it. It becomes attached. You become attached to your strength. So a perfect example is in the life of a dancer. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[26:30] Where I used to be able to do that, but I can't do that anymore. And they, so they, so your identity gets lost in that, right. Or whatever it is you do, you know, it could be, you know, as we, as we get older or, um, but it can, it can also be, you might be overshadowing the potential of your team. Like, you know, you might, you know what I mean? You like, and they just go, well, she always does it. So we'll let her do that. So if you want to, if you want to lead, right, maybe you step back a bit. Maybe you strengthen other areas of yours. You learn. You lean into that finding what you don't know because that's where you get strong, right? It's like if you overuse a muscle.

[27:15] You wear it out. Very true. Because one of the, just to rewind back, is one of the things you said when you work with clients is understanding the self. And what I pulled from your book, you know, resilience, you kind of encapsulated in, I saw sort of three things, a strong sense of self, maintaining a positive outlook, and learning from past experience. Experience when it comes to understanding oneself i mean what do you specifically do to create to help clients whether they be dancers or corporate clients or what have you how do you help them create a more robust mindset by understanding the self what is it that you try to explore with them i know previously you were talking about understanding the why of what they're doing understand the why or the reasoning behind their motivations that are drivers per se how do you help them sort of discover the self to build more resilient mindsets, i get them to recognize that.

[28:18] I help them to recognize by by sort of asking them questions right i don't know like i think it's it's very important that people understand in coaching that at least my philosophy that I do not know the answers for you. If you hired me as a consultant, I could give you some ideas or whatever, right? That's a different hat. But when it comes to coaching, I'm an expert at listening not to what you're telling me, but to what you're telling yourself. And then I get curious about that, but in an unattached way. So I might just, with permission, say, Jason, I noticed that you said, you know, honesty was one of your strengths. Tell me more about that or whatever, you know, you know what I mean? And literally get them to spend the whole space so that they will spend the time reflecting because I believe they know the answers. I 100% believe they know the answers. And they just don't know how to get there. And so trust becomes a huge thing.

[29:22] Trust is a repeated theme, I find.

[29:52] And that's scary. That's where creatives thrive, because we start with a blank slate. And that's where we get really excited, right? But but in life, life is a blank slate. And so we get in our lanes, right? You hear it all the time, you know, stay in your lane, stay in your lane. And it just becomes about getting it done and achieving and, you know, spinning the wheels as fast as you can and not, well, not literally not smelling the roses, you know. And, and I think I think it's about learning that life is now. It's right now. It's fantastic that you're, you know, you're doing whatever it is you're doing or, you know, or I feel you that life sucks, you know, right now. But what, you know, let's dive into that. Like, you know, and what else is true? true. And I think often I say, this is great. Like when there's a, when there's something that doesn't work, you know, someone who doesn't get a job. I had a corporate client who was up for a very big job. It was very, very excited about it and then didn't get it. And instead of, you know, me going, oh yeah, that's too bad. I was like, that's fantastic. What, what, what did you learn?

[31:03] What, you know, it, cause it isn't about the thing. I said, you know, the goal is to be the best that you are. I think that's the best in everybody I work with and how I work with myself. Be the best. Learn how to be the best that you can in everything you do. Always. So, I was late today for the podcast. Is that the best? Do I normally do that? No. Was it the best that I could do in that moment? Yes. Nobody plays to fail. Fail. Nobody, nobody plays to fail. And I think we need to understand that our best is a spectrum, that my best yesterday is not the same as my best right now, or, you know, in three hours.

[31:46] Music.

[31:51] In the first part of my conversation with Lisa Hopkins, well, the conversation explored the concept of space as the essential yet often overlooked intervals between our actions and our thoughts. Now these spaces are always present, but we seldom pause to notice them. Lisa emphasizes the importance of creating and holding these spaces, allowing us to self-reflect and to reconnect with our deeper motivations or drives.

[32:18] By intentionally engaging with these spaces, well, we avoid running on autopilot. And instead, well, we re-engage with our true selves and our reasons for doing things. Additionally, we delve into the premise of our book, The Places Where There Are Spaces, Cultivating a Life of Creative Possibilities, which centers on the idea of utilizing these spaces to foster creativity and to open ourselves up to new potentials in our lives. Lisa highlighted that life is a series of choices that occur between birth and death, and that these choices are influenced by our awareness. When we are aware, we are more open to learning from our experiences. And while that means then we are less likely to react automatically, this openness allows us to explore possibilities, living with a sense of potential rather than being confined to what seems probable or expected. Lisa points out that while achieving goals is important, well, it can lead to a narrow focus where we lose sight of the broader picture. As Lisa says, spaces are always there. We just need to stop up and notice, and then they will move from the background to the foreground of our awareness. They can show up in our daily routines, in the moments between our tasks, in our conversations, those pauses in the dialogue, In creative process, those gaps between brainstorming and execution.

[33:42] While also in our decision making, before making a choice, it is the space where we can pause to reflect on our motivations and the potential outcomes. It's also in our emotional responses. That brief moment between experiencing an emotion and reacting to it can also be a space where we can choose a response that aligns with our values. They can also be physical spaces, environments where we can disconnect from distractions such as nature, quiet rooms, or a meditative space. All of these can serve as physical manifestations of these gaps offering a place to slow down and reflect. They can also be in the transitions in our life. Major life changes such as

[34:20] moving, changing jobs, or experiencing loss. These can also create natural spaces where we can pause, reassess, and realign with our paths. So now let's slip back into the stream with part two of my fascinating conversation with.

[34:33] Music.

[34:45] Recognize their strengths recognize that they're not their only strengths, um learn how to put them in the toolbox right learn that that's part of their foundation, um it's like self-care right so many people go oh you know i'm running on empty but i'm great when i work this hard and everything but then i burn out and so on and so forth and and but now none of my none of my tools you know my my candles and baths and books and walks and or whatever They're not working, you know, or whatever. And it's like, well, yeah, because we start to associate. If you only do self-care as a Band-Aid when you're stressed, then you associate self-care with I'm stressed. So that glass of wine at the end of the day becomes a, you know, not I'd like to have a glass of wine because I enjoy a glass of wine. It becomes associated with it. I must be stressed. And so I teach my clients to, it sounds so simple, but, you know, it's amazing, right? But it's like, why don't you roll down, not just when you're stressed or roll your head or take a while, you know, but all the time.

[35:54] Like, you know, why don't you build a foundation? I teach them to have a menu because what happens is then we get dependent on, well, when I run, I feel great, but I have no time to run. It's the first thing that goes off my calendar or whatever. And you go, well, what else is on your menu? So the goal is not to run. The goal is not to lose weight. The goal is not to just, you know, look good in the dress at the presentation. The goal is self-care every day. So it does not need to look the same every day. So create yourself a menu.

[36:26] And the goal is just do something from your menu every day. It doesn't matter what it is. So you could have two-minute meditation. you could have 15 minute walk you could have whatever you want on your menu all the things only you know what what you know chills you down um and um and then you do it every day not just when you're stressed you start building a foundation and then you can amp up when you are stressed then you go okay now i really gotta amp up i gotta get more sleep and i gotta eat better and i gotta you know or whatever it might be and so that's again you know understanding the diversity of who you are and not just being reactive. I'm stressful now, so I'm going to change gears and I'm going to try this. But it's too late then, right? It can be eventually. Or I always warm up this way before I go to do a presentation or before I go on stage. Why is it not working anymore? And then you start freaking out about what's wrong with me. You say, well, there are other ways to warm up. Have you explored other ways to warm up that you also like? Then you've got choice then you're living and i think we talked about this before you know i have a big thing that i talk and teach about energetic choice it's important it's important to know that you always have choices.

[37:43] But when you mean energetic choices, can you sort of maybe expand on that? Yeah, no, for sure. So I have something I call the choice capacitor. I made it a visual so that people could really, it started really resonating with my clients. And so I kind of made it something more specific, which I don't always do. I tend to be more sort of, you know, feel it in the moment and, you know, translate it that way.

[38:10] And it really has shifted their thinking. so I'll share it with you. So I put it in a model of five energetic choices, right? And this is the way we speak to ourself, basically. So the first energetic choice I call, I can't, right?

[38:27] So when you say I can't, you're obviously limiting yourself, right? I can't do that either because I don't have time or, you know, you have reasons why. You're telling yourself, you have all sorts Usually when you say I can't, there's so much behind that. Why? Because I'm not good enough, because I don't have time, because I did that before, because, you know, whatever. And how many times, you know, do the listeners say I can't? I mean, honestly, how many times have you said I can't? Even lightly to yourself. Have, you know, if someone says, hey, Jason, do you want to go for dinner tonight? Oh, you know what, I can't. Even that creates, reduces choice, right? You have other choices of how to say that. I'm not saying that, you know, you should go or anything. So there's I can't. The second one is what I call, and I have to. So it's an energetic choice that I call, I have to. And when we say, I have to, we get through things with force. I have to, because if I don't, it's the ultimate binary. If I don't, I'll fail. I have to, but it also, it also helps us, you know, it does help us push through stuff. It helps us get stuff done. So, you know, and we do it all the time, right? I have to do this. I have to do this. and and.

[39:49] We move up to the middle of, and it's kind of an arc, you know, I can share the model with you, the choice capacitor. So these are all sort of the less conscious, right, energetic choices. Right in the middle, you've got I should.

[40:03] And I call I should the tipping point, right, into the higher conscious kind of energetic choices. But I should is characterized by shame. Shame. So there's, there's a knowing that you could do that, that you are capable of doing that. And it can motivate you to do something, but it's usually connected to, I should do that because I said I would, or I should do that,

[40:29] you know, because I can, or I, you know, we all know we should all over the place. Right. But as soon as you lose the shame, you're living in, I could, right and when you recognize simply the potential without the shape then you start to actually feel at choice so then you know so jason do you want to go to dinner you did you know you could go i can't i have to because i said i would at some point and this is that she asked me that's why i have to go or or you could say no i should go because it's good for me to meet with colleagues whatever right then or you could go i could go but doesn't mean you have to go see see it's not like you're gonna go necessarily um and when you get into i could then it's easy to move into, not not only could i but the fourth energetic choice which is i want to.

[41:26] And when you sorry between i want and i should so i could i should when you lose the shame becomes i I could, right? So, okay. When you lose the shame. Okay. Yep. Got it. And then once you're in, I could, when you start to feel that you're capable of stuff, you, it's easy to, to shift to the next if you want. And again, it's not, you know, it's not mandatory that you shift. It's just that, you know, you have these, these ways of speaking to yourself, you know, which is, I want to. And when you say, I want to, you get a little bit more like you can hear it in the tone of my voice. No, I want to do that. and then you start to have reasons why you want to do it as opposed to i can't where you have all the reasons why you can't i'm a loser i'm too old i'm not enough i'm but here you're like no i kind of want to do that you're not doing it yet maybe maybe you are but you know you're like no no i want to do that and then you start saying why and then the why i started helping i want to do that because right so it starts to become connected to who you are and then the ultimate right and this This has really transformed some of my clients. So simple. And I didn't have the whole model. I just used to say it all the time. Is I get to.

[42:38] That's, that's the highest energetic choice, the highest conscious, and it's choice with gratitude. I get to do this. So not only are you, you know, are you doing it, but you're having gratitude while you're doing it. And that's huge because gratitude often comes in retrospect. And we could go down that rabbit hole, you know, oh, that was great. Oh, I really appreciate that. Or, or in the hope world of, of the future of like, oh no, I'm practicing gratitude because this is really good. And I'm afraid it's going to be taken away. It's fear-based, right? But when you're at I get to, you are living in the moment, and you are grateful for it. Now, this does not mean that you only, you know, that you use I get to like some sort of, you know, secret or manifestation that you put it, you know, and that everything will transform into roses. What it means is that when you're doing things that you actually don't really want to do, but you know you're going to do, there are things in our life like taxes that we know we're going to do. Because they are connected to being responsible and so on and so forth. If you apply I get to the things that you don't want to do, it can be life-changing.

[43:50] If you know you're going to do them anyways, right? So it's like- It's a powerful reframe. I mean, it is a very powerful reframe because I think, you know, we all have our personal storms and some of those storms we can move through, but sometimes those personal storms, they hover like a hurricane, right? And we need to move into the center, the I to find that, again, to create space, if I may use that metaphor, into the I. And then maybe it is to be more cognizant, as you said, to who am I, to understand ourselves and part of it i this is a brilliant model from i have to to all the way to i get to and i i understand very well now what you mean by energy because all of a sudden your energy starts boosting yeah because you know when i'm working with clients and i i'm sure it's indicative of the clients you have also in the stories you know you ask them they will tell you a story we our brains work on stories and a lot of the times we are not cognizant of where a lot of people even myself i should i should i should and it's a type of what we call.

[44:55] In clinical psychology it's kind of guilt loading i should do this i should do this and if we don't cross that line okay here's a little more guilt here's a little more guilt but we don't realize how many times a day how many times a week we use i should i should i should and so i can understand that and that can really that can really uh you know leak our energy out when we feel we're forced or we have to and sometimes we have to sometimes we should have i mean i'm not saying it's all bad but yeah it is hamstringing us it's sometimes it is putting handcuffs on ourselves and limiting choices 100 and and i think the key is again with that i get to is it applies lies, it's choice with gratitude. So, so you, you take ownership of whatever it is you're doing, and whether it's the dishes, the taxes, you know, or, or whatever it is. And it changes when you start talking to yourself about, you know, oh, I have to get on a train to go to my, you know, sixth show of the week or whatever I get to go. I mean, like, you know, when you start to really recognize.

[46:09] That gets easy to to find well we are as you well know we are negatively biased we're wired for the negative because that keeps us safe right i mean so that's what our brain does but, you know that's the old brain that's the primitive brain so so we work on you know the more conscious brain which requires slowing down you know and and teaching the old one to come in like let's let's use,

[46:35] let's integrate. For me, that's the balance piece. Let's integrate here. Cause yeah, man, you are, you are my pinch hater when I'm really in trouble, you know, primitive brain, but you know, let's get some discernment instead of judgment. Let's not jump to conclusions. Let's, you know, let's ask what else is true. Let's think again, let's slow down to speed up, you know, all of these things. And, you know, that was great to help me get where I got here, but how I could really use you is this. And that's where re-scripting comes in, right? I do a lot of that with my clients. It's like, no, no, that limiting belief you had served you.

[47:12] Somewhere in your life, it absolutely served you. There's nothing wrong with you. Like people, you know, that's the other thing, you know, I said, there's nothing wrong with you. It's just old programming. It's just you know, and so when you draw... Yeah, you've moved on, the world's moved on, but that old rules in your head, the old scripts are still kind of rumbling around the back of your head right 100 this it reminds me it's funny because i pulled i maybe i can share this with you i pulled this short passage from yeah please read the passage that'd be brilliant it kind of relates so again you know each chapter is i don't know two pages or something you can pick it up anywhere it doesn't it's not sequential so you know if you don't read the whole book it's not the end of the and everything includes some some uh journaling space if you want at the end and and like a a coaching prompt but well i'll give you this is an example of of the kind of thing so let me go here so this one is chapter seven and it's called navigating your own course it's kind of what we're talking about so have you ever shared a thought or an idea before you've had a chance to process process it yourself testing the waters you float the idea to friends or family hoping that they'll get on board.

[48:27] If they don't, do you second guess yourself, wondering if you were just being silly or selfish for even thinking it in the first place? And then, based on the new insecure thoughts that are flooding your brain about the original idea, you decide not to rock the boat, convincing yourself that it's better to suppress your thoughts than to make any waves. So you bottle it up and toss it away into the sea of unprocessed ideas and move on with the more predictable, familiar terrain of life as you know it.

[48:59] Alternatively, what happens if they do get on board with your idea right away? A sudden current of affirmations washes over you and buoyed by their support, you ride the wave of enthusiasm eager to impress. The course has been clearly mapped out for you, charted by the opinions of well-meaning friends and family. And so, you show up as expected, arriving at all the scheduled ports of call on time. Remember that little idea that you once felt drawn toward it has now grown into something you are being pushed into without giving yourself the chance to consider why the need for external validation is real it can even propel us towards doing things we hadn't imagined we could do and it's perfectly natural to want to feel championed by those we love a quick energy boost but at the end of the day road or journey there's only you um they aren't they aren't connected to the thing you wanted to do they've tied it to what matters to them so when you arrive at the destination you know the one where you thought you wanted to go you feel like a castaway stranded on a desert island trying to remember why you even wanted to go there in the first place where is is everyone? They've moved on. They're good.

[50:21] However well-meaning your friends and family are, they don't know what is best for you. Only you know what is best for you. The rush we feel from external validation is nothing more than a quick hit. It's unsustainable. What will keep us on course is truly connecting to why things really matter to us. So the next time you have a new idea, Take the time you need to process it before you spill it out or bottle it up. Your thoughts are there for a reason. And when you take the time to explore what they signify, you can take the helm and navigate your own course.

[51:00] Well written. Well written. I think it's very astute the way you've put it together. Because then it comes back to the premise of this whole conversation to create that space. Yeah. Right. in which you can take the time to assess, to consider, to weigh, as you said, possibilities, and maybe not always probabilities. Yeah. You know, and I mean, the prompt I put at the end is what's something you'd like to do no matter what anyone thinks. I think, I think it's so important. It's so important to really take the time to connect to whatever it is that you want to do, that you want to say, that you want to be, that whatever, everything, an idea, whatever. Because then you're impermeable. You're not relying on that. That's all just the cherry on the cake. If people like what you're doing, that's fabulous. You know? And it allows you to, well, to be your own champion.

[52:04] Yeah, and really live bravely and openly. What it comes back to is sort of the stories we tell ourselves, the stories we tell about ourselves in relation to the world, people around us, what we do, who we are, what drives us. And I really like this sort of this, forgive if I'm not using your terms, but the energy choices of this five, what you call the energy capabilities or? Yeah, so the model, I'll send it to you. The model is called the choice capacitor. Capacitor, sorry. Yeah, and I call it energetic choice. Those are energetic choices, yeah. Because a lot of the stories from my experience working both in a clinical corporate setting over the time of my career is that all stories begin with one of these usually. I get to, I want to, I could, I'm willing to, I should, I have to, I must, what have you. And then a lot of the stories we tell ourselves about a specific situation may only be two or three lines, two or three sentences, or they could be very productive and very helpful questions, or they can be very negative questions that sort of drive us into the ground. And for me, storytelling is key.

[53:19] How do you work with storytelling with people? Oh, wow. That's a big one. on this is this is about a lie this is something that happened to me where i had a client ask me if if he could share something that he said to someone else and what i observed was how i responded in my head to it and where i ended up responding to him it's quite short i don't know shall i share that with you please please please okay that'd be great so it's called the lies we tell ourselves it's chapter 21 so i woke up yesterday morning to a text message from a client asking me if he could use something powerful that I had said in a session with their own client.

[53:59] Before I had a moment to receive the honor of the request, my egoic mind puffed up with blustery pride. They better credit you if they use your words, it warned me, telling me that I needed to protect myself and my ideas. It went on to promise me that it was keeping me safe from plagiarism and advised me to hold on very tightly to what was mine. Something felt horrible in my body, so I just stopped to feel it. I listened to what my body knew, but my mind was too narrowly focused to see. It didn't take long. Just enough time to take in a few breaths was all I needed to feel the warmer.

[54:36] Wiser wisdom flow into my mind. From that sage perspective, I was able to recognize that the message from the frightened little voice inside me telling me that I needed to protect myself was untrue. This revelation exposed the tiny-minded thoughts for what they were, lies. I responded to my client's text by telling him that, like good food, we take in the flavor of thoughts, ideas, and experience and mix them together in different measures to make a new recipe bespoke to us. The individual ingredients aren't owned. The recipe is ours to create and recreate. I extend the same invitation to you, dear reader, by all means, add and share anything Anything you've tasted in my kitchen and add your own unique flavor. I went on to suggest to my client, serve it rather than use it with the people at his table and allow them the opportunity to add their own seasoning. My client messaged right back and thanked me, saying that I had a way with words. I thanked him for inspiring them.

[55:45] Very. I really like that story. I very much like that story. You know it's you know letting go of those narratives that constrain us create the space, that's it yeah you know and what came out of it was a chapter in my book, so you know i could have stopped i could have stopped at yeah no that's not good i'm trademarking that and could you wait and you know all that nonsense or i could just have said no or i could have you know and instead i stopped i created space that was a place where there was space where I did just didn't react to what came into my head but what was really fun and I do this all time all the time in the book is to to be the observer and the participant so I'm watching what how I'm thinking and that's been really fun so a lot of it is musings like that in the yeah, no it's it's fascinating I have a sort of a maybe a curveball question here I ask this to a lot of authors and yes you are author now you have that professional

[56:45] feather in your cap so let's just Just give kudos where kudos are earned. But what did you learn about yourself through writing the book?

[56:56] Ooh, that's a great question. So about five years ago, the title came to me. I wasn't actually writing the book. I had always wanted to write a book, you know, so it was never attached to, I'm a, you know, I'm a, I'm a coach because I was barely a coach then, you know, and I want to write a book. So it was, that's not the way I roll, but I had the title, The Places Where There's Spaces. And I made, I made it not this title page, but I did, it never changed. I just, I knew that I was going to write a book called that. And, you know, over the years I had put stuff in it and it was kept a little bit precious. Like I can look at my old notes where, and maybe that's, well, it probably will be another book, but where I started not seeing what was actually in front of me because during the pandemic, I never stopped writing. But I was writing these, these little solo episodes on my podcast, right? So it started as an interview show, but then I started fooling around. I had time. So I started, you know, recording my voice and it was my daughter.

[57:57] Who said, actually, if you recorded that and put it on your podcast, like that would be, I would listen to that. You know, I like shorter form and, and it's really cool. So I, you know, I was, I, I'd never done anything like that before. I'm like, but it's an interview show, blah, blah, blah. So I got over myself still not thinking that this would be anything. And then everyone on the podcast probably responded almost more. And to this day, more to those kinds of musings and teachings than even the interviews. They're different. They're related, but they're different. So, along I did, so I kept doing it really regularly. And then I started realizing, you know, when I had this separate idea, you know, with different chapters, you know, and I was like, I was really in my old creative brain almost. It was really funny. Because, you know, like my professional creative brain. Then I thought, wait a second, and I started going, what if I rewrote some of these, picked some of them?

[58:59] And it's already there. I teach that. I teach that a lot. You teach what you most need to learn, right? It's already right in front of you. So I was like, holy cow, I have so much writing. And then, of course, you know, for me, it was the picking and then I never wanted anything to be the same. So it became another level of taking what I had written kind of off cuff into actually writing it. Like, you know, there was a bit of that. I mean, some of it is representative of what's on there. And then also finding, like, I remembered I found an old blog that I'd started writing. And I grabbed that. I grabbed, you know, just one thing from that. So what I learned, the question was, what did I learn? I learned not to be precious and to recognize what you've already done, to not silo your worlds, to recognize that, you know, it's okay to do things your own way. I had a lot of people, well, I didn't really tell anybody. I was just kind of doing it.

[1:00:05] And then it came together kind of relatively quickly. Historically, I mean, you know, in terms of when I, when I started doing that and I got, you know, the publisher and stuff and they helped me along. I mean, it's self-published, but with a really good publisher, like, so it wasn't like a kind of on Amazon, like where, you know, where the bar I feel is low. Like, I feel like I'm like that. I'm like, you know, as a dancer, I'm like, anyone could, you could open a dance studio, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, to me, I felt like, no, like, I would like to have somebody that's gonna support me and guide me, you know, so they had a good, you know, an editor and this kind of thing. And they've been, they've been wonderful. Anyway, so...

[1:00:44] Yeah, that helps me because I help keep me on track because I am a very growth mindset kind of gal, but I can get into doing so many things and seeing so many possibilities, you know, that, that, you know, it can get in my way sometimes. Times so that was so so I learned that that was really helpful and I'm still on that journey I'm learning that you know I'm really happy with the success of everything I'm doing but I'm also cognizant that there's a way to grow that is beyond just what I do myself if that makes sense and it's not that I'm like precious about like well I don't want anyone to edit my well I don't want anyone to edit my podcast. And I did design the cover of my book. I mean, there are things that I will take control of, but, but there are people that are experts at certain things, you know, so that's, I'm, I'm starting to learn that now it's about the, I know my why, right? I feel like my why has always been very connected. And so now I'm kind of living in the how, which is kind of fun. And so, um, I'm exploring that I'm exploring cause we all do. We, we, as mental health professionals tend to really focus on the why, which obviously is very important, and the self and all that. And I start to think about, you know, the who it is you're being.

[1:02:06] And then also the how, how it is you because you do have, and there's, again, choice, there's so many choices about how you do things. So it's so connected to the being, right? I think people used to think about, or I used to think about, or I don't know, but you know, we think we tend to think about how is like give me a plan but how is connected i believe to the who and i love that they have the same letters in them so you will hear something about that soon, but but because there's it's so they're so tied together so it's really the integration of all of it so you know i talked to somebody there's a there's a somebody asked me recently about, it was another coach actually who was asking me about uh i can't remember what his question was but it was kind of you know what where where are you at or you know one of those sort of open-ended questions and i said you know i've written a lot about and i've thought a lot about my life as a mosaic and in fact there's a there is a thing about in in the book about living my life like a mosaic which is you know you know piecing it together making all these beautiful parts and you know how when the when the candles lower it you know it glows differently than when the candles new and full and all of that, you know, all those metaphor. And, um.

[1:03:21] But I said to him, I'm getting this sense that although I really identify with that, that it's time to break the mosaic, this beautiful mosaic that I've created, that I love, that glows in different ways and all the aspects of me and that's been embraced by the grout, you know, of life or whatever. Ever said but but i'm getting the sense that i would like to to to to let it just all the pieces now to go out and then liquid or liquefy i'm getting like this liquefy vibe so i'm getting really woo woo but that but i feel like you know what i mean like it feels very cemented in when it's when it's pieced in together and i love the idea and the metaphor of the glow and i identify with that but i am feeling more liquid now i'm feeling more all my worlds are integrating they They don't need the grout anymore. And I want to flow in it. I want to flow in that. And I think that probably gets imparted to my clients for sure. You know, just by osmosis too, right?

[1:04:22] But that's where I'm at. Like if I were, you know, sort of coaching myself, I don't know if that kind of... Yeah, but I mean, I think, you know, all authors that I've spoken to, they have learned something about themselves through the process of writing and articulating their thoughts, their emotions, experience down onto paper. And it's through that process, it can be quite cathartic in some regards, depending. We are coming close to the top of our conversation.

[1:04:50] I was wondering, Lisa, was there any last words or thoughts or wisdom you'd like to leave with our listeners today? Gosh, wisdom.

[1:05:01] You know what? I think just remain open. We all have the capacity to be open. You're not in danger. You're not in danger if you are connected to yourself. You're smart, right? You know, if you really think about it, you know where you're actually in danger and where you're not. And I think to just stop, create the space, find the places where there are spaces to, they're magical. I mean, there are magical, magical places everywhere, spaces everywhere for living. That's where the living is. That's where the living is. And when you start doing that, it's counterintuitive because you're like, your brain will go, no, no, no, but I don't have time to do that. I'll do it tomorrow. I'll put it on my calendar. Don't put it on your calendar.

[1:05:52] Just allow yourself to be open to it and you will see it just just even put the thought and i will be open to see the places where there are spaces and then tell me what you come up with yeah it's it's it's a great read folks it's the places where there are spaces cultivating a life of creative possibilities lisa thank you very much for your generosity of time and sharing and actually reading a couple of passages or a couple of chapters passages from the book it was it was very interesting to hear your stories and reflections because it's got my brain kind of cooking now with all i have other questions but as it may have to be a part two so thank you very much at least for your time today i really appreciate it was a great conversation it's been my my pleasure my absolute pleasure.

[1:06:42] Music.

[1:06:49] As Lisa said, we always have choice. There is always choice between life and death. But it's the constraints in which we put ourselves in that can limit or expand those choices. And as Lisa so well articulated, we have energetic choices. That's a great term. You know, on the bottom of the scale, which is low conscious choices, such as I can't or I have to. Can we be aware? Where can we be cognizant of these sentences that become our narrative? And these narratives drives our emotions and they drive our actions. And as we move up the energetic scale of choice, whether it's I should, which can be characterized by shame. But once we lose the shame, then it's the possibilities of I could. And then the next two she talked about is that I want to. It's about revealing the motivation, the drivers, the passion between the possibilities of. And not always being hinged on the probabilities and as we evolve along this energy choice scale then we can get to i get to and that is coupled with gratitude and that's where we want to be i get to do this i get to do that it's true gratitude in the here and now and so as we round up this episode i just want to take a quote from lisa she said to stop create the space find the a place where there are spaces.

[1:08:16] They are magical, magical spaces everywhere. That's where the living is and be open to it and you will see it. So folks, if you're looking for a good read, I would suggest you go out there and buy her book, The Places Where There Are Spaces, Cultivating a Life of Creative Possibilities. I will leave the link to the book in the show notes as well as the contact information to Lisa. Lisa, personal thank you from me to you for spending some time with me today to have a great conversation, to create this space in which to explore possibilities. So thanks again. Well, folks, we have arrived at the final station of this particular episode, but I will be back Friday with Bite Size Fridays and then again Monday with another long-form discussion with another brilliant guest. And until then, keep well, keep strong, and we'll speak.

[1:09:09] Music.