Navigating the unpredictable waters of a creative career, we've all had our fair share of unexpected turns and surprise destinations. Just ask Kim McCaskill, the director of narrative for PlayStation, who joins us to recount her awe-inspiring transformation from stand-up comedian to a maestro in the realm of writing and television production.
The steps of her journey are etched with lessons on the power of perseverance and the magic of grabbing life's off-the-cuff opportunities, as she opens up about the moments that shaped her career—including a life-altering encounter with the head of BBC Scotland Comedy. Her narrative is not just her own, but a beacon for anyone in the throes of their professional voyage, signaling that while the path is never straight, each twist and turn can lead to remarkable destinations.
Navigating the unpredictable waters of a creative career, we've all had our fair share of unexpected turns and surprise destinations. Just ask Kim McCaskill, the director of narrative for PlayStation, who joins us to recount her awe-inspiring transformation from stand-up comedian to a maestro in the realm of writing and television production.
The steps of her journey are etched with lessons on the power of perseverance and the magic of grabbing life's off-the-cuff opportunities, as she opens up about the moments that shaped her career—including a life-altering encounter with the head of BBC Scotland Comedy. Her narrative is not just her own, but a beacon for anyone in the throes of their professional voyage, signaling that while the path is never straight, each twist and turn can lead to remarkable destinations.
You're listening to In the Club Presents At the Club, a Class For Kids podcast with me, brian Davidson. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of In the Club Presents At the Club. If you haven't done so, please do consider subscribing to the page, leave a like comment and ding that bell for notifications At the Club is, of course, brought to you by Class For Kids.
Speaker 2:
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Speaker 1:
If you'd, like to learn more, click on the link in the description below. So on this episode we have a very special guest as the director of narrative for PlayStation, Kim McCaskill. Kim talks to us a little bit about her professional journey and how she has navigated both the successes and the pitfalls of her career so far. Kim, thank you very much for coming onto this short wee forecast. It's great to see you. I haven't seen you in a long time.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, no, I think it's been about. I was going to say 10 years, but I think that was just me massively flat in myself, stroke having and nervous breakdown. I think it's been closer to like what 20 years, something like that.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I know it's not nice to think of when you left. That's always the kind of the body of the hugger, wasn't it? When you kind of like, you can trace your mental decline as when you left school.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely. But yeah, my brain will forever think I left school 10 years ago. I could be in my 60s and think I left school 10 years ago. It's just that's how it's tattooed in my brain. But I think it's like probably like a weird defence mechanism that my brain's created for itself so I don't have a meltdown.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's good. It's nice to have that safety net that have that bubble. As long as you believe it, that's fine. So, coming straight at it, can you tell me a little bit about your journey and the journey you went on to get to where you are today?
Speaker 2:
I can do my best It'll probably take the entire podcast here is because what I will say is I'm definitely not one of these people that had a dream, went for the dream, and the dream happens. If I was to describe my career, always think of like a bowling alley, when you have the bumpers that can go up and someone throws a ball and it just bounces everywhere until it friendly smack something at the end. That's been my entire career progression. So what I can say is today I am a narrative director at PlayStation. Where I started was as a stand up comedian, so it's been a massive journey between those two different places.
Speaker 2:
I started stand up and I was about 18, 19 years old. I don't know why. It just felt like something I really wanted to try and actually when I started it, I didn't realize that comedians wrote their material. I was never a particularly bright person at school. I don't know how much you remember about me and school, brian, but I was in the brightest. I thought comedians made things up on the spot and I thought if I could just want it for one gig, it'd be like an amazing experience and I wrote this material and I had the notes in my pocket. I went on stage, the gig was good, I enjoyed it, but I felt like a cheated. So then when the owner of the place we know is that the Stan comedy club asked me for come back, I ended up confessing that I was a good person. I ended up confessing like he was a priest. I was really really sorry. I wrote this before I came. I just wanted to try this. I hope I've not upset you and he took pity on me and then explained to me that comedians actually do write their jokes and I'm allowed to do that. So I did that for about six years, but kind of new long term that I was maybe more of a writer than I was a comedian. For said reasons. And that's when it got hard, to be honest, like that's when it got really hard Because I think in my mind I wanted to be like the next Seth Rogan, edgar Wright and so on.
Speaker 2:
So I was breaking my back writing like sit compilat after sit compilat, because at that point sit comps were very big. They're not as big anymore, but that's what I wanted to crack and I just tried so hard to write episodes that nobody wanted to read because nobody knew who I was and nobody really cared and I just tried to chat every single door and then I think we eight years of that I had a proper, proper meltdown. I think I turned 26 and every all those people that I named to you all made it 25 and I turned 26 and I had a total meltdown and I remember having this kind of moment of you know, screw it, you know. So I emailed the head of comedy, bbc Scotland, comedy being like, I went to the NFTS, I've been studying this, I've been picking up cameras and make him own stuff. I've been writing scripts every single day trying to get people to read them.
Speaker 2:
The comedy unit used to get a sketch from me every single day and that used to be a habit I made and I was like but no one's interested and I was expected to be told to go look at the job listings page. But he actually invited me in for coffee and it was the nicest thing I think anybody had done for my career and at about 10 years. And you just looked at my Siri and said you're not doing anything wrong, you just need a break, you know, and once you get that break you'll be sorted. And I left feeling a bit better and I can say that within a month he called me back asking if I'd consider covering a comedy producer's maternity leave and that was my first big break into a whole different area.
Speaker 2:
So I became a TV producer for the BBC, totally off the back of having a breakdown, and TV producing was great, I really enjoyed it, but, I think, always wanted to be a writer deep down, love comedy, love being a comedy producer.
Speaker 2:
But it just so happened that Rocksteady, who had a triple A game studio, who are known for the Arkham games, were looking for a senior script writer and again, like everything else, I applied, not really expecting anything, and you know what that was nearly job I applied for. I'm still applying for writing gigs every other day, but that was the one of the many hundreds to go back to be another writing test and then started a career in games and so now I just continue a life of, I'd say, games is my brain butter, but I will write TV, I will write film and podcasts series occasionally as well. So it's like been a total, total mix up and that's why it takes so long to explain. But the journey itself is, even though I've been able to put that into about? I think about six, seven minutes. That is nearly about what 15 years worth of me just banging doors. So that was the journey.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's amazing, that's. That's kind of like one of the things I we hear a lot like here. But we talked a bunch of guys and I talked a bunch of like students and they kind of like the coaches kind of trying and still in them that, whereas you might have this idea of what it is, you want to do through like, especially performing arts. So if you're going to like a theater school, you're doing theater classes and drama at school, you want to be an actor. There's so many different avenues that you can go from there.
Speaker 1:
It could be a million miles away from like what I want to be the stage actor.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely.
Speaker 1:
I put to that a wee bit with starting off your career journey, which is fantastic.
Speaker 2:
It's so, so true. I think when I really wanted to be a stand-up, my best friend really wanted to be an actor. As it goes, she's now a voice actor, but I still remember the moment when she realised that the only good thing is that you get treated much better as a voice actor than you do a general stage or screen actor. I think when she realised that she's like I just want to do voice acting, I think she got into her 30s and she was like I don't need the Oscar, I don't need the BAFTA, I just want to make good money, I be treated well for what I do. I think that's something that people can relate to a bit more as they get a little bit older. So, absolutely, I think what you said I think is your ultimate dream.
Speaker 2:
You change as a person as you get older. I was so extroverted when I was in my teens and so extroverted in my 20s. I'm actually a lot more nervous these days and a lot more self-conscious. I think life just battered some sense into me. But as a stand-up, I thought I wanted fame. I thought I wanted to be known. The thought of being known and famous now terrifies me beyond belief. I would hate that now, but in my 20s that's all I wanted. So it goes to show you what you think you want when you start out. It changes as you develop. You just never know. So keep an open mind, for sure.
Speaker 1:
It was one lesson that any one of your jobs or your career has taught you that everybody should learn in life.
Speaker 2:
I think the biggest thing that I think I've carried with me that has only served me, that I don't think enough people take on board on their own journeys is, you know, humility is a wonderful thing, I'm going to say being like having humility. I mean knocking on doors to anybody, asking anybody and everybody you know if they'll read a thing or do a thing, because there's a lot of people out there who feel a bit embarrassed about asking somebody to read a thing or to see a thing or to help with something. Don't you know? I didn't you know, because at the end of the day, you never know when someone is going to say yes, and those are the moments, even if it's one in a hundred, you know you're still already ahead of someone who's not trying. It's like I said, the Stan comedy club has this slogan that's written before you go on stage and it says abandon your dignity here before you go on stage.
Speaker 2:
And I love that because, even though it's obviously going to be quite tongue-in-cheek, it's true If you take yourself too seriously, you're not going to get very far. The moment you start taking yourself seriously, the moment you start protecting your ego over your work, then you know that is what's going to hold you back. Get rid of the ego, get some humility and just keep knocking doors, whatever it is you want to do, and don't be afraid to be embarrassed. I've made an idiot of myself in so many different shades that even if I wanted dignity tomorrow it's no longer available to me. But you know what? I still have a job that I like, so you know it's the price you pay. Just get rid of your dignity, get rid of your ego, get rid of all of that and just try your best, because you know at one point we're all going to be here in our 60s and 70s, we're all going to be crappier pants anyway. So you know you might as well just get ahead of the game.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely. I could not have said it better myself. I could not have put that into better words In the workspace. In your opinion, what is the most important personality trait to have in a professional setting?
Speaker 2:
Oh, that's a really good question, I think, and so I'm going to focus this on the games industry, because what we'll say is with the games industry is different from TV and film in terms of you will be working with the same people, potentially for up to seven years, and that is in a highly creative, highly pressured environment. So, going in and thinking you can, you know, have any sense of blame, culture or ego. You're never going to last days. You have to be able to collaborate healthily for a long time while being creative but not letting that become in any way, you know, arrogant, ignorant, dismissive. So I think that the best, the best trait I think that you can have is there's a word for it, but I'm trying to think of what the word is Humble, I think. Just be humble, I think.
Speaker 2:
I know it's an easy thing to say, but whether you're a director or you're someone that's new, you are always learning, especially in something like the games industry, where it's changing every other year. No one can go into a games studio and be like I know how to make a game. None of us know how to make a game. We are entirely, we're gonna. Any game that you see shipped is a miracle, and there's a reason why it takes so long to make is because there's so much problem solving, because every game poses new challenges. But what that means is it doesn't matter what level you're at. Everybody needs to be listened to. If you, you know that's what you need. I find it particularly with some of the younger people, because they come in with different perspectives and that's how we get new stuff being made. So I think, be humble and listen. Be humble and listen definitely.
Speaker 1:
Nice, that's that I like that. That's very good advice. I think one of the things I always try to do as well with like anything I work, whether it's in here, it's like try to get film stuff done. It's kind of understanding that the most important thing is the project and then go. You kind of have to take your personal even if it's your idea, if it's your thing, if it's whatever it is, if it doesn't suit the end goal, then you need to be able to take it back for that.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. Everyone that is part of a project is there to serve the products. Anyone that's doing anything else is not a team player. So absolutely.
Speaker 1:
Do you have any advice for the young creative minds of today?
Speaker 2:
Be patient with yourself. Definitely be patient with yourself, whether it's film, tv games, whatever it is that you're doing. Just yeah, it's a difficult, saturated fortress of an industry and you can be doing what I did when I was younger, which is again breaking my back and putting everything in it and almost obsessing over trying to succeed in a certain industry and see when you keep getting those knockbacks and those failures. It's difficult because I always see it when you're young and you're like I want to be a director, for example, that becomes a bit of your identity. And you're quite young with a new identity and if that's your identity and there's no success, that can be quite a hurtful identity to have, because we see success as the proof that we're good enough. And actually what you're doing is you're getting into an industry where you're almost set up to fail. It's a really hard, hard industry. Anything in the creative side is very difficult to get into. So if you're not any further along, don't do what I did and have a meal doing at 26. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:
It's I'm 36 now and the difference in the past five years I could never have imagined when I was in my mid-20s. It's as that person at the baby said it takes one break. It really takes one break for other people to take a gamble on you. What you're really looking for is someone to take a risk on you, just one person to take a solid risk on you, and the rest will start to happen easier. But that one person taking that risk on you is the hardest thing you'll need to find in this industry. So be patient with yourself, especially if you're graduating. Some people just immediately enter a job and you just feel cursed. We're all in different parts of the race and, like you said, all it takes is that one break and you can go from 0 to 100 overnight. You never know. So just the best advice I can say is just be your own biggest fan, because you're going to need that support from yourself, never mind anyone else. So be patient.
Speaker 1:
Nice. That's amazing. That's fantastic advice. I had a very similar breakdown view as well, because I was convinced that I was going to do it. I was like when Orson Wales made Citizen Kane at 25, when I turned 26,. I was like no, that's it. That's it done. Forever in the bin. I'm finished.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, but this is it. You look at people like Orson Wales and again like Edgar Wright and Seth Rowe. You let Edgar Wright's dad work for a power and my Orson Wales was not struggling. You know what I mean. It's like we all start from different places, and it's not to say that anyone that makes a 25 definitely has a helping hand.
Speaker 2:
But it is an industry where nepotism and other means of getting ahead works, and what I can say now is I got a lot more work in television and film, but only because I'm doing really well in games. I know I'm really only of interest because of that. Had I not been working in games, I still wouldn't be getting really anywhere in TV and film. So it's a bizarre industry and it's an industry of trends and cycles as well. You never know what's going to be popular, like at one point in comedy, no one wanted a woman writing anything. Now people are gagging to say they have a female writer on something you never know.
Speaker 2:
But, though I totally get it, they could have the breakdown at 25 when it's a difficult time. I think it's something about that time in your life where there's something kind of tricky about it, because that's when people are starting to get serious careers and if you've fallen down a creative route and you're seeing your friend that's graduated law school and they're buying houses and so on, and you're still kind of sat there with your comic book collection, your DVD collection, with nothing but movie facts to propel you and a party for an interested chat. It can be a little bit depressing but, like I said, it's unfortunately. The worst thing about it is there's a reason why we're showing us alcoholics and tortured souls in our betrayal. For some reason we chose this life. But yeah, absolutely that's amazing.
Speaker 1:
Well, Rafa, I'd like to thank you very much for coming on and chatting with me for 10, 15 seconds. It's okay happy to do it. Just want to say thanks again to Kim for coming on at the club and giving us some tremendous insights. If you haven't done so yet, please do consider liking the video, leave a comment, subscribe and ding that bell for notifications. I will see you on the next episode. Cheers.