EP34: Parenting Allies Can Change the Workplace

Interview with Han-Son Lee / Founder of Daddilife, Leader in HR Change in the UK

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Han-Son Lee, the founder of Daddilife, a parenting website for fathers in the United Kingdom, is working to change the way companies treat working dads. Human resources departments can be there to facilitate changes and help create Working Dad Groups, but the only way men are going to come on board is if there are effective mentor groups. Listen to Han-Son talk about how to create these groups and why a lot of effort at the start pays dividends that grow exponentially for years.

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Transcript

00;00;05;02 - 00;00;27;08
Paul Sullivan
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host on the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a dad in a world where men were the primary parents often feel they have to hide or not talk about their roles. Today, in the Company of Dads podcast, I'm talking to Han-Son Lee, the founder of daddy led parenting website for dads in the United Kingdom.

00;00;27;10 - 00;00;42;05
Paul Sullivan
I came across it while reading about him and a colleague in the Harvard Business Review right here, if you guys want to get it. He wrote about dads building what he calls parenting allies at work, and I wanted to know more. Han-Son Lee, Welcome.

00;00;42;07 - 00;00;44;15
Han-Son Lee
Thank you so much for having me on, Paul.

00;00;44;17 - 00;00;47;09
Paul Sullivan
How did start? Did you start? Daddy left.

00;00;47;12 - 00;01;10;03
Han-Son Lee
So talk about, started six and half years ago. But my own son, who's now seven, was very, very young. And I knew at the time, you know, I wanted a very different father to what I had grown up. But everywhere I looked, there were a great number of of dad blokes, and I think, well, I got some that don't content, you know, following different dads on that journey.

00;01;10;05 - 00;01;27;00
Han-Son Lee
And that was great. But they felt there was a missing piece around a more collective shift in fatherhood as a whole. And the generational shift to fatherhood. And I just felt that there was a missing piece for that. So I thought it was going to be, since you kind of create the solution to your own problem. Yeah.

00;01;27;02 - 00;01;41;14
Han-Son Lee
And it's grown in over the last few years, the, the UK's largest content platform, we've become a two time bestselling author, and we also run a consultancy, for the and I for. That's the work that you had seen before?

00;01;41;17 - 00;01;44;07
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Yeah. What were you doing before you started dating?

00;01;44;09 - 00;02;02;06
Han-Son Lee
So my background is actually marketing in HR, so I actually led one of what is still, I think one of the largest rebrand programs in the UK, with quite a large retailer in the UK called The Co-operative. What across so CRM, social media, various different platforms for the likes of Picardy, Unilever and a few others.

00;02;02;08 - 00;02;14;08
Han-Son Lee
But I've also done a lot of employer brand. So lots of around the HR lifecycle and that's a huge base of, of my role in careers has been in research, which is why we've done so much again. Yeah.

00;02;14;11 - 00;02;22;06
Paul Sullivan
Please tell me, please promise me this, handsome. Please. Probably when you were working in HR, please tell me you weren't the guy who said, no, you can't take paternity leave.

00;02;22;09 - 00;02;47;08
Han-Son Lee
No, I didn't, I didn't get unfortunately, I didn't even have the big red button for that. We it's funny because in a way, we're kind of putting hopefully the big green button now, of that across many organizations in the UK. Excuse me. Broken the throat. But it is interesting. I think the US perspective is so interesting for me, particularly because actually there's still so much to do.

00;02;47;08 - 00;02;52;22
Han-Son Lee
I think, particularly from a US standpoint, and hopefully we can talk about that a bit more today as well.

00;02;52;24 - 00;03;09;28
Paul Sullivan
Talk to me about that. When you think about, you know, you started this, what, seven years ago. You said six and a half. So 2016 or so. What was your what was your goal then and what was the landscape like in the UK for dads and working dads?

00;03;10;00 - 00;03;37;11
Han-Son Lee
Yeah, it's a question. I think that there has been a lot of progress over the last few years. I think in the UK, where when I think back to what it was, it was relatively one dimensional at that point. And and what I mean by that is it was very much a social media platform. You know, we did a lot of around the community, but kind of in a broader sense in terms of funny anecdotes, life lessons, quotes, you know, things that would describe that data interaction.

00;03;37;13 - 00;03;57;09
Han-Son Lee
But actually, I guess where it's evolved to over recent years is, as dads, I think have become more present. And I think we've become more aware as a society of the role of that. That's not to say there wasn't a heck of a long way to go. So there is. But I think there was definitely this groundswell of starting to emerge with dads at home.

00;03;57;12 - 00;04;18;15
Han-Son Lee
And actually, we did a big piece of research on that in the UK, which I'll send through after this, called the Dad index, which is actually where we measured, and that's where we got to the nitty gritty of. So we say that's a more involved, which is great, but actually how exactly are they more involved. Like is it set routines is a set of responsibilities of what is it.

00;04;18;18 - 00;04;38;07
Han-Son Lee
And so that did and these were cool actually was the first time we deep dive into bond behavior. This relationship to involves routines at home actually just kind of more proof in the pudding of what dads are actually doing. And I think what we're seeing, though, is that wall dads are doing more at home, and they're on the journey to become more of that equalized parent.

00;04;38;07 - 00;05;09;11
Han-Son Lee
Or as you would say, more of that lead, that there is still a massive, massive weight of disappointment. I would say when it comes to the dads at work experience, where culturally there is still this overarching thought and belief that dads should just be at work. And I think you see that time and time again in organizational culture, whether that's around, as you said, paternity leave, whether it's on flexible working, whether that's, challenging what men do around here.

00;05;09;14 - 00;05;39;29
Han-Son Lee
And I think it's so often that we hear from other dads about the challenging the status quo and then being given, you know, the grunt work or being put on the B track, so to speak. And I think that's where a lot of our work is focused on actually. So saying, well, one thing we searched, we did quite a big report with Deloitte in 2019 called the Millennial Data Work, which we do refer to a little bit in the article where it was the first time we were able to just really deep dive into dance at work and then actual data that experiences of work, whether it be through policy, whether that be through

00;05;39;29 - 00;06;02;12
Han-Son Lee
tensions with colleagues or line managers or wanted to, arrangements as a whole. I think the big call out stat for me from that research, went through just over 2000 like dads. And that is 33% of all the dads that we interviewed had actually left their roles since becoming a dad in order to find this better work life integration.

00;06;02;15 - 00;06;10;19
Paul Sullivan
And what do you say left their roles? Were they doing it take a different career or they're taking a step in a different direction within their company? What did it mean exactly?

00;06;10;22 - 00;06;41;11
Han-Son Lee
So leaving the company. So a totally different role in a totally different organization because they couldn't they didn't feel supported like that at work in the organization. So that was a really a significant base of people. But what was interesting was that another third on top of that were actively looking. And so what you've got this is they were 66% and two thirds of this group of people who will be colleagues, you know, junior managers, senior managers, they'll be vital talent in an organization in some level of flux.

00;06;41;11 - 00;07;11;16
Han-Son Lee
And I think, you know, one thing we predicted from the research is that this isn't a thing that will gradually be seen and felt in organizations. It will be a cliff edge. And I think one thing we've seen over Covid is that it has been a cliff edge. It's been it's hit. It's here now because we probably haven't been as busy over as we have over the last 12 months on that side of the organization, because there's so much that organizations are now seeing that's leaving their organizations in droves and going, hey, we need to do something about this.

00;07;11;16 - 00;07;12;01
Han-Son Lee
What's going.

00;07;12;01 - 00;07;37;24
Paul Sullivan
On? Yeah. When I talk to companies over here, it's exactly what I say is that, you know, your high performers are going to get up and leave whether they are, you know, working moms, and you're not, you know, sort of meeting them where they need to be met or their, their dads, working dads who are at least in the States are afraid to say, hey, I need some time to to be a parent because they're afraid to say because if they do, they think they're going to get dinged and seen as not committed to work, as you just said.

00;07;37;26 - 00;07;54;14
Paul Sullivan
But I think those high performers are the ones who have the ability to say, I've had enough, I don't want to do this anymore. I can get another job over here. They're going to let me do it. And we've been, you know, I'm sure over there were talking a lot about quiet quitting here in the States where people are doing just the sort of the bare minimum.

00;07;54;14 - 00;08;19;19
Paul Sullivan
And I think, you know, I want to say to companies like, you should kind of welcome that because the other part of these people who are quiet quitting, maybe they're not your top performers, but at least they're still there. They're going have other people are just going to out and out, quit and say, I don't. And I have all these examples from, from, from different dads and different working moms who've gone from, you know, XYZ in a platinum company that is, is grinding them to be in the office, you know, 4 or 5 days a week.

00;08;19;19 - 00;08;42;16
Paul Sullivan
And there's no flexibility to, you know, one, two, three, you know, newer startup company that pays them just as well, gives them more flexibility. And they're taking the skills and they're leaving. And, you know, it's a real, you know, problem. Have you noticed when your research you know, you talk about this cliff edge. But in your research you started in 2016 completely different world, for working parents in general.

00;08;42;19 - 00;09;02;06
Paul Sullivan
We go through 2020, 2021. Now, here we are in 2022. What have you seen as some of the bigger, you know, changes that are coming out of this, either from the millennial dads that you surveyed back then or dads in general in the UK. How has it changed? You know, I guess we call it post-pandemic. But, you know, yeah.

00;09;02;09 - 00;09;07;21
Han-Son Lee
It's interesting. I think in the UK we talk about the next normal and the next normal.

00;09;07;21 - 00;09;08;01
Paul Sullivan
That's the.

00;09;08;01 - 00;09;37;01
Han-Son Lee
Next normal. Yeah. And this next level phase is really interesting because in a way it's obviously a byproduct of the new normal that was its predecessor before. I kind of always think about Star Wars. And this is like how many prequels can you get in? I need to read about Hayden Christensen again. But the thing that's interesting, obviously, about the new normal is its benefits in terms of that, it was specifically is that it opened up more the possibility of what could be.

00;09;37;08 - 00;10;18;13
Han-Son Lee
I for more and more men and more and more dads. It was specifically and I think I always say modern day fatherhood isn't really a page thing. It's very much an attitude thing. Well, so interesting about it is it definitely opened up new possibilities and I think started to break through some of those traditional barriers. But what's interesting is, as ever, with this new context, normal, this sense of actually going back to the way things were is something that I think organizations are now struggling with in that you've now got, if you think about it, the last two years, let's call it two years, 18 months, three, four months, you've got this group of

00;10;18;13 - 00;10;29;14
Han-Son Lee
men, particularly in the UK, have seen this in a more first hand where they've not known anything else but working from home while they've had a newborn.

00;10;29;16 - 00;10;30;02
Paul Sullivan
Oh, sure.

00;10;30;02 - 00;10;50;17
Han-Son Lee
And so when you think about that, then to actually trying to convince that going for colleagues that grew from, as you said, you know, valuable talent, that actually going back to the office is really a great thing. Well, it well, now, actually, I've had the chance to do the things that I never, ever would have had the opportunity of doing as consistently as I have for the last two years.

00;10;50;19 - 00;10;54;08
Han-Son Lee
Why would I want to get back to the way things were? And I think there was that.

00;10;54;09 - 00;11;20;20
Paul Sullivan
And and they've shown they've shown that look, I was able to perform at a high level. I was able to get things. Absolutely awesome. Absolutely done. And I always say, like, you know, if you are on a very important client call from, say, 330 to 430 in the afternoon, which is when, you know, my kids come home from school here, outside of New York City, if you're on a very important client call, you wouldn't hang up because somebody at work was calling you.

00;11;20;20 - 00;11;35;11
Paul Sullivan
You would finish that very important client call, and then you call the person back. And I think, like, we need to sort of is working down and say, okay, this is that hour in which I'm going to have, you know, that that fresh time with the child when they just get off the bus, all their stories are there.

00;11;35;16 - 00;11;52;19
Paul Sullivan
They want to tell you about their day. You wait two hours to dinner. What happened to school? Nothing. Nothing at all. Nothing really. Nothing. But you get them off the bus and it all comes out like I did. I had art today. I love my history. You get a new teacher. This nurse, you know, Johnny, got gum stuck on his shoe.

00;11;52;19 - 00;12;14;27
Paul Sullivan
All this stuff comes out and it's pure gold. But I feel we need to, you know, sort of advocate for companies to realize that, you know, an hour in your calendar openly. You know, we're talking about Zobel. I'm not hiding it. To do that makes you a better human. And it makes you. And if you're a better human, you're going to be a better human at at work.

00;12;15;00 - 00;12;36;28
Han-Son Lee
So. So something we talk about is about how dads can bring that identity to work more visibly, because that visibility of you're not just known, as you said, you know, you're doing x, y, that you're not just a colleague, you're also a dad. All the rest of the camera and you know something else beyond work, but that actually impacts your work, whether in a positive, in a positive way.

00;12;37;00 - 00;12;53;27
Han-Son Lee
And I think being more intentional with that identity is so, so important. And it's why, you know, in the article we talk about a lot of shit, because certainly in the UK, about 72% of of the whole UK workforce is a carer. I think in the U.S. it's about 60 to 63%.

00;12;53;29 - 00;12;57;08
Paul Sullivan
So it depends on the region. But yeah, yeah. So some are higher than others. Yep.

00;12;57;10 - 00;13;30;07
Han-Son Lee
Yeah. Kind of a federal level. So if you've got a significant population and a significant weight of GDP right there in terms of, you know, these roles and responsibilities not just at work but beyond. And I think that's like a lot of it for me is such an important part of this next normal. And it's not something that I think a lot of people or not enough people are really leaning into in that, you know, so often people think that's at work is a bad thing and it is not the same as an individual, but actually getting the right kind of balance and equity.

00;13;30;07 - 00;13;55;07
Han-Son Lee
Is it that at work is fundamentally about the whole family, 100% about unlocking real gender equality throughout the whole family and actually making sure the family can thrive? And that's not something we did in the UK. We're piloting the three organizations at the moment. It's, we actually want that, that mentoring program. But we so the first round of it, we actually matched external mentors to internal mentors.

00;13;55;10 - 00;14;17;17
Han-Son Lee
And we tried to get that sense of fresh perspective in those spaces. What we learned very quickly, actually, with the organization and were a little bit fearful of that. They didn't necessarily they weren't comfortable with that lack of visibility. And that's like lack of transparency. Understandable. So what we do now is we actually empower the organization to essentially run a specific mentoring program.

00;14;17;20 - 00;14;20;17
Han-Son Lee
And the results have been absolutely transformational because so are.

00;14;20;17 - 00;14;25;14
Paul Sullivan
The dads coming from within that company X, y, Z Bank. Okay.

00;14;25;18 - 00;14;26;28
Han-Son Lee
How does that work out?

00;14;27;00 - 00;14;43;15
Paul Sullivan
But how does that work? Because, I mean, one of the things that I think at least here, that change is going to start, more in the middle more, you know, what we call middle manager callbacks or call them emerging managers because they're closer to the people they work with. If you have somebody and this is obviously you've thought this through, so I'm giving you opportunity.

00;14;43;15 - 00;15;02;10
Paul Sullivan
Explain it. But like if you have a dad who's been super successful and hasn't struck that that balance, you know, behavioral economics, we would call that an anchoring bias. They're going to think that their way of doing it is the way that works. And it often happens for for very senior female executives as well, who who have succeeded without, you know, mentors and all this and then to ask them to go back.

00;15;02;11 - 00;15;21;11
Paul Sullivan
So how are you finding, you know, the right match of yeah, men at work or dads who have been sufficiently successful, balancing they have to be sufficiently successful to be a model. Otherwise you're like, well, this guy's not done this well at all. You know that. Walk me through or walk us through how how that works.

00;15;21;13 - 00;16;01;11
Han-Son Lee
So essentially, I, I'm a massive proponent of behavioral economics in a large part of my marketing role before all this was was based around that. And I think we kind of use similar principles of not so much anchoring, but more nudge behavior in that the thing that's interesting with the mentoring is, you know what? You definitely need someone who has a certain level of visibility and a certain level of seniority that fundamentally this is actually a two way process in that what we do first is we recruit a very specific profile of mentor who has to be within a certain recency of being a dad himself, because actually, one of the tensions that, you

00;16;01;11 - 00;16;31;04
Han-Son Lee
know, I'm sure is there's a generational tension between, you know, what I kind of call perhaps wrongly, you know, boardroom dad who may be a little bit detached, maybe wasn't as present. The father, you know, whether through fault of his own or not. But circumstances dictated that maybe there was a certain detachment there versus, as you were saying, this kind of emerging middle management for the very active, very present, slightly different roles, responsibilities, outlooks, you know, on things in terms of work and family.

00;16;31;07 - 00;16;51;19
Han-Son Lee
And so we're quite we're very, very conscious really about recruiting the right type and profile of mentor. But we work very, very closely with HR teams and DNI teams. Then around actually, how do we get the dads, the mentees? Because the mentees are not those necessarily who are just new fathers. It's those are the ones who are. That's the be.

00;16;51;22 - 00;17;16;19
Han-Son Lee
And I think where we've seen real successes, how we can grow, not just necessarily a relationship, but a bit of a community internally. Because what happens is that. So, for instance, if we have 12 mentors and 12 mentees this year, then doubles, so that actually what you're creating is a sustainable culture of change, because then year two, you've now got potentially 24 mentors.

00;17;16;22 - 00;17;36;19
Han-Son Lee
The next year you've got in a more, more, more job. What you're doing is creating this pretty rapid change from the inside side. But with the new generation who are kind of taking ownership of it, obviously with the right skills from ourselves. And we partner with a mentoring, organization called the Parent Mentor as well. So we kind of got the best of both worlds in terms of the mentoring expertise.

00;17;36;19 - 00;17;38;23
Han-Son Lee
But also, you know, that specific focus.

00;17;39;01 - 00;17;52;26
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I can understand why you'd want to get this sort of dad to be there's that of a tabula rasa. They don't have any good or bad dad behaviors. They, they don't, you know, know what it's like to be a dad at work. They just know what it's like to be somebody at work and then somebody who's the partner at work.

00;17;53;02 - 00;18;14;15
Paul Sullivan
But what do you do? How do you sort of work with the fathers who say, have it as you do? You said of the seven year old, I have it, you know, five, ten and 13, but who know, a different world of work that that world of work, you know, before covet, before we were able to work from home, but also, you know, having to to juggle things and things.

00;18;14;17 - 00;18;38;20
Paul Sullivan
Life for dads, for working parents has changed tremendously in the past decade. But to be quite honestly, people have scars. People are scarred from, you know, trying things at work as a working parent, lead dad, working mom. And it didn't maybe didn't work, didn't go well. So how do you help them realize, okay, this time is different. The company is is honestly trying to work with you, and this is, a positive.

00;18;38;20 - 00;18;41;07
Paul Sullivan
So. So put yourself out there.

00;18;41;09 - 00;19;09;08
Han-Son Lee
Yeah. That's pretty. There's probably more than one question in that question, which is, I think one, how what's the process around making sure that actually you're getting the right sort of engagement and possibly the right kind of openness? Because I think one thing is and I think of myself kind of this is very sort of masculine behavior as well, is that I don't think it's controversial to say we're not always the best at being truly open.

00;19;09;15 - 00;19;35;07
Han-Son Lee
I work, you know, as men because we're kind of fearful about the consequences of those things. So I think part of your question is this about process in terms of real openness, because, you know, as you know, with any sort of good mentoring relationship, the real transformation is how you can actually genuinely be open about where you want to go and actually how quickly and how openly you can embrace that transformation.

00;19;35;10 - 00;19;53;08
Han-Son Lee
But there's this a second part of that, which is, I think, in your question, which is about how do you ensure not just the processes, right. And the openness is right, but actually how are you kind of getting this is not quite the work, the word, but how you get to the bottom, I guess, from a sort of organizational perspective to.

00;19;53;11 - 00;20;17;25
Han-Son Lee
So I sort of take part one, you know, we so we've done quite specific mental training as part of the program. And that is really, really important for us because actually it's not necessarily just showing up as a coach, as a mentor, you know, as someone who's just there to be a sounding board, there is a different role that you bring to it as a mentor, which is not just the world of work.

00;20;17;27 - 00;20;35;22
Han-Son Lee
It's kind of the world at home and the world that at work. And so we're very intentional, and that's when it's very specific of that particular role. And as part of that, we're already kind of growing the sense of community in the staff community. And and one of the exercises in running in that first workshop is about their own journeys.

00;20;35;24 - 00;21;00;12
Han-Son Lee
So we're very intentional about that, opening up themselves with other dads in a safe environment around, you know, what was your journey? And it's amazing that we have dads who have had more conventional journeys but opposed to, you know, had miscarriages along the way, have gone through IVF, have had doubts the twins or triplets unexpectedly have kind of really faced a lot of rollercoasters, as you know, kind of day to day parenting, but are very intentional about it.

00;21;00;12 - 00;21;17;17
Han-Son Lee
And actually, those sessions are some of the best sessions we have, even right at the start, because there was a level of openness that dads and men and organizations have just never been able to be as open as that in a pretty, you know, safe environment, but not just to be open, that you could be useful with that information as well.

00;21;17;17 - 00;21;18;14
Han-Son Lee
For other colleagues.

00;21;18;17 - 00;21;38;02
Paul Sullivan
When I was you to do your research on the idea for The Company of Dads, I just had the feeling that men weren't going to be open, with me about their role as a daily dad, as a primary parent. And so instead, I went and talked to a lot of senior female executives, at professional services firms, at law firms, because I had the sense, like, okay, how did you find, you know, balance?

00;21;38;02 - 00;21;53;06
Paul Sullivan
How did you find somebody to help? I had to do it. And I had the hunted, you know. Sure, some people could make enough money and have, a lot of paid caregivers, but that's not a lot of people. And some people could have, family, helping out over here. But that's not a lot of people I here, that had to be something in the middle.

00;21;53;06 - 00;22;10;04
Paul Sullivan
And it was talking to these senior female executives who said, yeah, my, you know, my husband, I was either he's the lead dad or we've traded off over time with, you know, me being the lead mom, he being the lead dad. Depending on how our careers were going, they were much more, you know, open in in talking about, you know, this role.

00;22;10;04 - 00;22;26;12
Paul Sullivan
And then that's amazing when I think to try to do the company of dads is to normalize it so that this is just, you know, we have this incredible moment. Let's not, you know, squander it, let's say, like, okay, we can we can do things differently. The senior most management may maybe saying we need to return and work like we used to.

00;22;26;12 - 00;22;50;11
Paul Sullivan
But the reality is they they can say that all they want people can vote with their their feet. People can vote in the quiet quitting movement. And we need to, you know, acknowledge companies need to acknowledge that, you know, it has to be different. Not that this time is different. It's like people are demanding that they want to switch from, you know, as somebody told me, as sort of, you know, means based economy to a meaning, based economy.

00;22;50;13 - 00;23;10;26
Han-Son Lee
You know, totally. Right. I think there's something there about it. We're definitely accelerating to this, but it still feels like a juncture and a juncture where we can go left or right in terms of, you know, we can try and struggle on and we can try and wrap people up into various different ways of going back to the way things were.

00;23;10;28 - 00;23;35;15
Han-Son Lee
Or we can actually part embrace a new world. And it doesn't even necessarily to be totally one or the other. It can be kind of the best of both, but I think at the moment there are still too many. I would say some of the UK organizations and the kind of more traditional leadership that is anchoring towards that initial view of saying, well, okay, COVID's over, we don't have to wear the mask as much, let's get back to it.

00;23;35;15 - 00;23;47;01
Han-Son Lee
And it's like, well, no, because you haven't really been listening or aware of how do you how people have changed through this? The people have changed tremendously.

00;23;47;04 - 00;24;06;22
Paul Sullivan
Let's talk a little bit more about the the depth and breadth of the parent parenting allied network. At work, obviously mentorship. I can see this being part of it. But when you, you know, as you fleshed it out in the HBR, piece, how do you see it? You know, starting out, you know, you got to some baby steps, you know, just kind of like is.

00;24;06;22 - 00;24;13;06
Paul Sullivan
And how do you see it, you know, flourishing, at the company, is it really allow it to, to flourish.

00;24;13;08 - 00;24;35;04
Han-Son Lee
So, so, part of the answer to the start of the answer kind of goes back to what you were saying before in terms of what are those? What about those people who maybe have stepped above the parapet before and been scarred by it? And one thing we always say to people is actually you all to some degree responsible for the change in your environment.

00;24;35;07 - 00;24;57;26
Han-Son Lee
And I'm a big proponent of that. And I think one of those very small steps that actually starts a wider movement of advice for anyone. It's actually just being a little more intentional with your identity as a parent. So where I've seen this happen and I've seen this happen in three steps, time and time again, there's people one people are more intentional with their identity.

00;24;57;26 - 00;25;07;05
Han-Son Lee
And I know there's some that sounds like quite a big structure thing, to be honest. But people, it's as simple as just talking about what you were up to with the kids at the weekend, right?

00;25;07;05 - 00;25;24;00
Paul Sullivan
About the watercooler, because people are talking about other things anyway. They talk about, hey, this past weekend I played football with my buddies. This past weekend I played golf with my buddies. This past weekend, my partner and I went out to to dinner. That part of their identity is already being discussed at the proverbial ice in the water cooler, so why not add in the other stuff?

00;25;24;00 - 00;25;38;08
Paul Sullivan
And I have, I say, added in. You know, honestly, not the the glory moment of, you know, little Johnny scored two goals this weekend. It's the whole richness of being a parent which isn't always filled with the glory moment.

00;25;38;10 - 00;26;03;23
Han-Son Lee
I couldn't agree more on. I'd be totally transparent. I mean, for me anyway, as transparent as you feel comfortable. But I would say for any dad, you know, mom listening subtly, being authentic is saying with actually your own journey of parenthood and probably sharing some of those challenges one can do, two can actually utilize that. And the answers that may help for insights can come back your way sometimes, but it just lets other people know that it's okay.

00;26;03;25 - 00;26;26;14
Han-Son Lee
You know what? This person is something beyond just what I think of them. Actually, they've got some challenges, intentions and opportunities. This other part of their life that actually is either impacting negatively or positively. Sometimes both. The world at work and where I've seen that move to then stage two, which is actually how you then start the full, what I call informal community.

00;26;26;16 - 00;26;52;06
Han-Son Lee
So starting not just to talk about your own identity as a parent to work, but listening out for others who were saying it because it's just it's amazing how sometimes you think of someone you know who works across the hallway here, or is on the other end of a slack message here. But as soon as you overlay their life with that parenting equity that you both share, suddenly actually being able to pick up that line and go, you know, have you thought about this?

00;26;52;07 - 00;27;26;06
Han-Son Lee
Or, hey, you know, she said this the other day or this could help or actually, you know, maybe there's a wider thing here that we can actually, talk about and actually connect on. And that's actually part of the third phase, which is then when those sort of informal threads become something a little bit bigger and a little bit more formal, I'm saying the UK, you know, we've been working with a lot of organizations around either, so that's a specific network in the organization or a working parent network, which for us is kind of the bigger epiphany if they're ready for it.

00;27;26;06 - 00;27;46;20
Han-Son Lee
And I think time and time again, I've seen that it's kind of my, my, what you can call it, my kind of burned fingers experience, which is where you sometimes work in organizations who think they're ready for a working parent network. They're all they're really ready for is the batch of it, because it makes them look good and feel good, but actually there wasn't much substance behind them.

00;27;46;25 - 00;28;03;27
Han-Son Lee
I think the true epiphany and I've seen that. So, you know, one good example of this is, we've worked with them before, like John Lewis, quite a large retailer in the UK. I'm just talking to they're sort of comparable to that, sort of. They're not they're not a target, but they're kind of it'll come to me.

00;28;04;00 - 00;28;27;15
Han-Son Lee
They're just a very lovely organization as well. And they've got to work on a network that is truly equitable and equal in terms of the issues they talk about, both for mum, the carers as a whole. And I think as well, the way you arrive at parenting can be very diverse, you know, not just as the traditional, couples you've obviously got, you know, even same sex.

00;28;27;16 - 00;28;50;07
Han-Son Lee
That's another sort of various roles and formations of what modern day families look and feel like they are. X the and actually understanding of their work. Network isn't just a badge. It isn't just a club isn't just a network. It's fundamentally about another part of your identity as a parent that we can talk it very openly, whether you're mum, whether you start with a carer, however you're coming at it.

00;28;50;10 - 00;29;01;17
Han-Son Lee
So they do it incredibly successfully. They also have an equal parenting, programs that dads that you can take up to. I think it's 24 weeks now, paid leave.

00;29;01;19 - 00;29;19;27
Paul Sullivan
You know, the companies are pushed back and worry, at least in the UK, about, you know, liability they, they may face for this. And by that, I mean, it's all well and good. You have parenting network, you have a working dads network or any group, and people are talking and sharing about themselves, their kids. But what if people are really struggling?

00;29;20;01 - 00;29;44;02
Paul Sullivan
What if they're struggling? You know, around the, the, the, the strain of it of, you know, sometimes, you know, again, you know, start certain moments of the year. You got a lot going on with your kids and they're having, you know, were more open about talking about mental health struggles now but not super open. I mean, do they worry that, okay, if something gets set in that group, we now have an obligation to deal with it.

00;29;44;02 - 00;29;50;29
Paul Sullivan
And it's not just a group of people, sharing how they balance their, their different parts of the person.

00;29;51;02 - 00;30;11;07
Han-Son Lee
You're absolutely right. And I think this is where the kind of behavior of a group is so important, because it's great that we might have a badge that says working parent at work. But actually, if we're just listening and we're kind of just inviting the good stuff and we're not taking action on the actual real stuff that actually could be really, really crap.

00;30;11;09 - 00;30;17;17
Han-Son Lee
And actually all we are just a glorified, you know, pat on the back, you know, for people. And that's not leading right.

00;30;17;17 - 00;30;22;29
Paul Sullivan
And the people who are already feeling alone feel even more alone or lonely or before.

00;30;23;02 - 00;30;51;26
Han-Son Lee
And I think that's why within some mentoring program or the other networks that we've been involved in, there's always a really embedded behavior to, at the very, very least, signpost someone. So something or someone sometimes that's a job business partner, sometimes that someone will see, sometimes that's someone slightly different. But actually being action based is the key, key ingredient to these groups because, you know, otherwise it just becomes, as you said, another very surface level forum.

00;30;51;26 - 00;30;59;06
Han-Son Lee
So I think the where I've seen it work really well is where they go deep and where they're very intentionally action based.

00;30;59;09 - 00;31;16;28
Paul Sullivan
Hansen Lee, thank you for being my guest today in the Company of Dads podcast. A little bit lighter. Last question for you. What are you most optimistic about over the next, you know, 12 months for dads at at work?

00;31;17;00 - 00;31;58;05
Han-Son Lee
That's a huge question. What am I most optimistic about? I, most optimistic about, stuff. So, so one thing that I think I've always been quite envious, I must admit, of, working mums of. Is that all the great working mums I know and I'm in my own in this are really just incredible human beings first of all, but have this incredible behavior being amongst them as creates self sorority around themselves, and around their networks.

00;31;58;08 - 00;32;39;10
Han-Son Lee
And it's a great way. So lifting people up to really, really troubled times, men and dads generally do not have that same behavior. Far from it. But I think there's a lot more natural inclination to be a lone wolf, and almost to suffer in silence than to open up. I am optimistic, and maybe I'm just being a lot of pressure on vehicle, but I am optimistic that more networks will form that actually gets us out of that lone wolf mentality and into something a bit more open, a bit more engaging, a bit more, dare I say, honest about the people we are, the people we want to be.

00;32;39;12 - 00;33;05;10
Han-Son Lee
And I'm optimistic about it because if you'd asked the same question a year ago, I wouldn't have said this, but I'm starting to see a few thoughts around different organizations, different people. I think more importantly, different H.R people as well, in organizations gravitating towards that question themselves. So I'm optimistic that the you know, even though the base may be small, there will be some impact.

00;33;05;12 - 00;33;08;26
Han-Son Lee
But maybe you can ask me again to 12 months and say that so I entirely wrong.

00;33;08;28 - 00;33;17;15
Paul Sullivan
We'll come back, we'll revisit it then. Thank you again, Anthony, founder of Daddy Life. I really appreciate this this conversation today.

00;33;17;17 - 00;33;18;17
Han-Son Lee
And said mental.