EP35: Lead Dad or Modern Husband: Discuss

Interview with Brian Page / Founder of Modern Husbands, Financial Literacy Expert

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

For our first joint podcast, Paul Sullivan, founder of The Company of Dads, and Brian Page, founder of Modern Husbands, come together to discuss what the two groups have in common and where we differ. No competition here, just two men discussing one set of key issues that have come out of the pandemic: what it means to be a Lead Dad or Modern Husband in this changing world of work and home life. Listen to hear what Brian and Paul have to say about money, marriage and the pursuit of dad and husband happiness.

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Transcript

00;00;04;23 - 00;00;16;28
Paul Sullivan
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host and the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a leader in a world where men often aren't the primary parents.

00;00;17;00 - 00;00;28;15
Brian Page
And I'm Brian Page, founder of Modern Husbands, where we're devoted husbands who enjoy to manage the home and money with our spouse while living a life full of experiences.

00;00;28;17 - 00;00;51;07
Paul Sullivan
Today we're bringing you a joint podcast, which will air on both The Company of Dads and the Modern Husbands podcast channel. No competition here. Just two men discussing one set of key issues that have come out of the pandemic. And that's what's it mean to be a dad or a modern husband in a changing world of work and home life?

00;00;51;10 - 00;00;53;08
Brian Page
Paul, what is a dad or what?

00;00;53;09 - 00;01;15;24
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for asking, Brian. Allied dad is the primary parent. Whether he works full time, part time, or devote all of his time to his kids. And we've got a lot of, single lead dads. We're so divorced. The dads. But I would say the vast majority of lead dads, you know, the sort of 85, 90% range have, a spouse, who works.

00;01;15;24 - 00;01;30;21
Paul Sullivan
And so part of being a dad is also helping to support that that spouse in, in her career and at the end of the day, you know, we're just, we're trying to help people fulfill their potential. Throw it back to you. What modern husband?

00;01;30;23 - 00;01;48;13
Brian Page
Modern husbands really see marriage as a partnership. You know, and and kind of look back in the 1950s and, and the roles that men and women often took on in marriage. You know, women rarely worked outside of the home. And, frankly, they were subservient to men. And, you know, those days, fortunately, are long past.

00;01;48;13 - 00;02;08;25
Brian Page
And and for those of us now in the modern husbands community, we recognize that in order to manage a home well and with happiness, that we need to understand what the home needs to be able to run efficiently and how we can work together to make that happen. So modern husbands could be men who, are the breadwinner and their wife works or their husband works.

00;02;08;27 - 00;02;41;01
Brian Page
And vice versa. Some some modern husbands. Are focused on staying at home and simply managing the home and and managing, money and others have, you know, really challenging professions, their, their doctors, their lawyers, and we just try to work together to make sure that as a community, we uplift our spouses, celebrate their career successes, and make sure when they come home that they come home to a place where, they can relax and enjoy managing a home with a partner, rather than being burdened with the second shift burden.

00;02;41;03 - 00;03;04;00
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Go ahead. Talk to me. You know, you're probably not going to be a dad or a modern husband, without, you know, kids and maybe some pets and all that and other things that you can tell us. You know, what's one of your your your favorite moments? You know, as a, as a modern husband.

00;03;04;02 - 00;03;22;27
Brian Page
Okay. So I, I have to tie two short stories together for this. I we're going to back up about a decade, and I had two full time jobs. I was I was always working, and, my wife had just gone, back to work and, she had, some sort of, work trip. She was out of that.

00;03;22;27 - 00;03;39;26
Brian Page
I think she was out of the country. And, you know, for the first time, I'm like it probably an hour and probably, you know, five years. Because early on in our marriage, we we did things differently. But she had managed the home, and, for the first time in a long time that I was responsible for.

00;03;39;27 - 00;03;42;25
Brian Page
So I had three kids at home. And,

00;03;42;28 - 00;03;44;21
Paul Sullivan
What were the ages of the kids?

00;03;44;23 - 00;04;01;08
Brian Page
They would have been like first grade, second grade, fifth or sixth grade. Somewhere along there. Yeah. And, you know, I've got, you know, she's got the kind of a list of what I needed to do because I, you know, otherwise I wouldn't have done anything because I would have known what to do. Laundry, dishes, you know, everything.

00;04;01;11 - 00;04;14;01
Brian Page
And you know, at the end of the week, you know, I'm giving myself, like, this trophy on Facebook, right? Because if you're if you're a guy, like, doing anything at home, managing things, it's great. All you got to say, it's like, hey, I took my kid to soccer practice, and you're like, celebrated for success.

00;04;14;04 - 00;04;16;01
Paul Sullivan
The bar at the bar is low, the bars.

00;04;16;03 - 00;04;38;17
Brian Page
Vox low, bar slow, and I needed a low bar. And so, you know, I list all the things that I had accomplished, you know, just looking for some, some cheers and, hope only, you know, she sees it pretty early on and she responds with just one comment and she channels pictures. They flip it. She just said, have you reminded Bryce to take a bath?

00;04;38;19 - 00;04;40;12
Brian Page
I like, you know.

00;04;40;14 - 00;04;42;22
Paul Sullivan
And I wasn't on the list. It did.

00;04;42;29 - 00;04;44;18
Brian Page
But I sit.

00;04;44;20 - 00;04;45;26
Paul Sullivan
Down on the list.

00;04;45;29 - 00;05;06;11
Brian Page
And I just responded, I like I do, I still need to do that. So apparently my kid, like was the smelly to the school all week long. But my favorite moment was fast forward to, recently the last couple of months where, you know, I have been, you know, taking the lead at home, managing, oh, let's say 80% of what we're doing.

00;05;06;11 - 00;05;30;10
Brian Page
And, you know, obviously, I'm doing what I'm doing with Modern Husbands, and I'm a visiting scholar at Cfpb, but I have so much more freedom, in my position. And I've, purposely put myself in a position where my wife is the one whose career we're going to support. And so, you know, and doing all of these things now for almost a year, I go away, for a business trip.

00;05;30;10 - 00;05;49;11
Brian Page
And I come back and there were some things it was a little chaotic. It was like there were some things, miss. They forgot the trash. And I thought, wow. Like, I actually am a little bit valuable. My wife, who's like a machine, she never makes a mistake. Like, she just got so accustomed to me taking the lead that they were actually mistakes made.

00;05;49;11 - 00;05;52;10
Brian Page
It felt good. Made me feel like I'm doing what I need to do for my wife.

00;05;52;10 - 00;05;55;18
Paul Sullivan
But we're all of the kids bathed when you. You heard?

00;05;55;20 - 00;06;15;01
Brian Page
Yeah. They were. And they brush their teeth. So. So she was, Yeah. She did out for the for for me and the important stuff. So, so, can you, can you share a little bit, you know, Paul, about, like, some of your favorite private moments yourself as as a dad?

00;06;15;03 - 00;06;37;17
Paul Sullivan
Sure. I mean, that's, you know, it's a role that, I sort of took on, almost sort of secretly for the 13 years I was a columnist at the New York Times, I was able to have this super rigid schedule so I could, you know, my column was doing a certain day, you know, bigger sections that I would edit their months out, you know, book, take a book takes two years to write.

00;06;37;19 - 00;06;56;10
Paul Sullivan
So I had the super control over my schedule and my wife, who works in finance, she didn't have any control whatsoever. Somebody could call her in the morning at 6 a.m.. I call her at 6:00, at night. And so what I loved was being able to balance both things. I really, I yeah, I was the more energized I was.

00;06;56;10 - 00;07;14;02
Paul Sullivan
And I remember, you know, just like, okay, you know, I'm going to talk to you at, 245, which means I will drop my daughter off at some activity, at, you know, 230, take the call at 245, know that the activity goes to, you know, 350 and 330, and then we'll go from there. And I just, I loved the juggling.

00;07;14;02 - 00;07;36;02
Paul Sullivan
But part of that is, you know, that's just the logistics. Part of that was I got so much time just with my daughter. So I've got three daughters and just being in the car, you know, having a no, cell phone, no iPad, you know, policy in the car. You know, after a while, that they'd have to talk to me, you know, they'd have to talk and we'd, you know, just developed a great rapport.

00;07;36;02 - 00;07;52;14
Paul Sullivan
And now my kids are, you know, five, ten and 13 and and where we are in Connecticut is that, you know, sort of started the school year. And yesterday was I felt like old times again. I took one of my daughters to, lacrosse practice and, you know, brought my computer. And every time she was doing something, I watched her, you know, play lacrosse.

00;07;52;14 - 00;08;13;01
Paul Sullivan
And when it wasn't her turn to, you know, run around, I did some work that I. And it was wonderful. But, you know, it has you you talk about funny stories. It reminds me of the story I told in my last column in the New York Times, which was, I'm outside a ballet studio time. Well, I have two daughters and outside of the ballet studio, and, my father, Grant Grampy, has taken the other daughter to the pediatrician.

00;08;13;01 - 00;08;29;15
Paul Sullivan
And I have what I think is plenty of time. I'm in the passenger seat of my car. I got my computer, you know, a mediocre cell phone service. And I am talking to, sort of a former, high ranking official in the Clinton White House who was at that time, you know, dean of the business school at Berkeley.

00;08;29;18 - 00;08;46;26
Paul Sullivan
And she and I are chatting away, having a great conversation. And all of a sudden I see my dad's, cell phone number pop up, and I know that he is calling from the pediatrician. Now, Grampy is yet Grampy. You know this. Like, you get that call, whether it's from him in the office or the pediatrician directly, you don't take it.

00;08;46;26 - 00;09;03;26
Paul Sullivan
They don't call you back. Like, literally. You could call them back in three seconds. And I'm sorry. He's busy right now. He could call you back tomorrow. It was just three, and he's busy right now, and so. But what do I do? Senior white House official. Former senior white House official. Dad, you know, Grampy with with the daughter on the phone.

00;09;03;26 - 00;09;20;17
Paul Sullivan
And, you know, it's sort of trying to listen to her, trying to take notes, trying to think it through, and, you know, one ring, two ring, three ring. And I said, well, you know, that is a fantastic point. And it makes me wonder. And I hang up mid question on her so I can take the call from my dad.

00;09;20;17 - 00;09;43;05
Paul Sullivan
Now she starts calling me back because who, who, who hangs up on former, you know, Council of Economic Advisers head in the white House now running a giant business. Who hangs up on that? But nobody hangs up on that person. And so I talked to the pediatrician. I don't remember what happened. You know, obviously find nothing, you know, normal kid stuff.

00;09;43;07 - 00;10;01;01
Paul Sullivan
And then I have to compose myself. And here I am, you know, the New York Times columnist. I sure as hell can't lie. So, like, what I'm going to say is like, okay, call her back. And I say, you know, look, I'm really sorry. That happened. The cell phone service in my town is horrible.

00;10;01;04 - 00;10;03;08
Paul Sullivan
Well, where?

00;10;03;10 - 00;10;03;26
Speaker 3
It's all.

00;10;03;26 - 00;10;18;04
Paul Sullivan
True. I was sorry that that happened. And where I live in Connecticut, the cell phone service is awful. I did not at any point connect the two or just I just two statements of fact. And then, you know, we we we went on from there.

00;10;18;07 - 00;10;24;24
Brian Page
You're clearly a great writer, but you might have even been a better lawyer.

00;10;24;27 - 00;10;44;19
Paul Sullivan
You know, we're we're talking about the we've done some funny stories here, but when you think of, like, you know, the favorite or the favorite and the least favorite thing that, you know, a maiden has been, you know, needs to do, you know, what comes to mind?

00;10;44;21 - 00;11;06;09
Brian Page
Well, you know, I, I first I want to speak for myself because I think, you know, everybody has different things that they that they like and they hate. I mean, I'll start with what what I, what I like the most. And you think it's managing money, but it's not, it's it's, you know, cooking a really good meal and knowing that I actually had everyone at the table enjoy it.

00;11;06;11 - 00;11;30;11
Brian Page
You know, all my my kids. One is like a vegetarian, another one's picky, and the vegetarians a picky vegetarian, by the way. And so, like, you know, when you put, like, real effort into it, particularly if you're like, you know, smoking the meat, like, if I'm smoking ribs or I'm smoking pulled pork and I'll have it on there for like 30 hours and I'll have something else go on and just like, like that moment where, like, you know, you pull the bone out and you don't have to wiggle it.

00;11;30;11 - 00;11;37;03
Brian Page
It just comes out because it's so it's so juicy. And, you know, everyone's eyes light up like, you know, hey, this is going to be really good.

00;11;37;06 - 00;11;46;15
Paul Sullivan
And then just and the poor and the poor vegetarian gets broccoli and the poor guy. Here. Here's your. It's steamed. It's not smoked. Or I could smoke the broccoli here.

00;11;46;17 - 00;12;09;00
Brian Page
That's that's a good point. You've got to learn these little hacks. Right. Got. And so one of them was that he loves portobello mushroom sandwiches. So what's really good is, portobello mushroom. Smoked for an hour. And, you know, you put, you know, some a little rub on it, a little bit of oil, a little bit of pimento, spicy pimento cheese at the end, you know, the, the right bun.

00;12;09;02 - 00;12;25;14
Brian Page
So that's a great I'm glad you brought that up because you got to think about these little things because you've got, you know, kind of have dual purposes. Yeah. And then everything that comes with it, like when they're done I want to clean the kitchen and just to the satisfaction of them enjoying the meal. And then at the end, like knowing my wife doesn't have to do any of that.

00;12;25;14 - 00;12;49;05
Brian Page
She's just done and I clean it up. Now, it's not as if I could do that every night, because my kids are all doing different activities as yours are. But my would say, my my least favorite activity, the task is a modern house. I like, I cleaning toilets like, I can't I dry heaving a whole time like it's, you know, I don't know anybody can do it.

00;12;49;07 - 00;13;06;26
Brian Page
But it's honestly certain aspects of managing money. So, I love to save, I love to, like, continue to build my credit score and build her credit score and had a perfect one at one point. I did that managing credit cards. Who.

00;13;06;26 - 00;13;11;01
Paul Sullivan
Who mess up the perfect score?

00;13;11;04 - 00;13;13;17
Brian Page
Let's see. I have to run that story by my wife.

00;13;13;23 - 00;13;17;17
Paul Sullivan
All right, I you getting there? And that's, that's a.

00;13;17;20 - 00;13;23;26
Brian Page
I promise we'll do another podcast. And that's a that's a really great story. If I'm allowed to share it.

00;13;24;00 - 00;13;31;09
Paul Sullivan
Are there, like, documents in your basement labeled, like top Secret that, that go into that, that story and that.

00;13;31;11 - 00;13;58;16
Brian Page
PDF out there on my laptop? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I, I, I have a tough time, spending money unless it's like, you know, an experience or it's something nominal, like a fun, funny t shirt or high stakes jersey or giving. Like, I really enjoy the gift. And so I'm. I'm not normal. You know, so, as an example, we have to buy new furniture for our living room.

00;13;58;16 - 00;14;25;00
Brian Page
It's like ten years old and a and when I say have to, a reasonable person would sit down on the couch. It it kind of wobbles to the right. You gotta brace yourself. And, you know, the mechanics are all messed up and they would say you, you really should buy a new couch. Whereas me, who is very unreasonable, I grew up and I'll I'm sharing this in my blog where my parents never in their life bought new furniture.

00;14;25;06 - 00;14;42;01
Brian Page
So our living room furniture was actually it was rummaged out of my grandparents home after it was leveled from a tornado, and they put my dad put plywood under the cushions because all the springs were torn out. So so I'm coming from like a mindset.

00;14;42;01 - 00;14;45;12
Paul Sullivan
I think a reasonable person could agree that that is unreasonable.

00;14;45;14 - 00;15;07;04
Brian Page
That they would, they would. But would you grow up in that environment? That's just what you know. You know, frugality is a part of who you are. So, so when I say that there's things I hate, I am incapable of recognizing rational spending decisions that a reasonable decision person would make. So any of those things, I'll just explain to hope.

00;15;07;04 - 00;15;08;17
Brian Page
Here's what we have budgeted.

00;15;08;23 - 00;15;09;18
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;15;09;20 - 00;15;27;10
Brian Page
Just go and buy it. I didn't even see our house before we bought it. It was I was on FaceTime. So anyhow, yeah, I just can't I just can't do it. What about you? What what are some of your favorite and least favorite, tasks that accompany being a dad?

00;15;27;12 - 00;15;43;29
Paul Sullivan
You know, I mean, the favorite, it comes back to sort of, you know, doing stuff with my kids and always, you know, now I'm obviously working. I ironically or not, I'm working, you know, as a founder of the company dads, I'm working a lot more than I was as a columnist and book author, you know, The New York Times.

00;15;43;29 - 00;16;07;21
Paul Sullivan
But yeah, working everything around, you know, their schedules. Yeah, working things around my wife's schedule. I feel like that's a real, you know, privilege to know that, you know, you and I are doing this podcast now, right? And then you know, half an hour after we're done, I'm taking, you know, my oldest daughter, you know, somewhere it's at time and not missing things and, and sometimes, you know, say, okay, you know what?

00;16;07;22 - 00;16;26;27
Paul Sullivan
I'm going to put my leave my cell phone wherever and I'm going to go do what, you know, put push one of my daughters in a swing. My five year old, she loves the swing and stuff like that is great to have it be you know, sort of, you know, uninterrupted. Personally, I also I also love my calendar like, crazy color coded calendar.

00;16;26;27 - 00;16;42;08
Paul Sullivan
If my wife was on here, she would say that's probably her least favorite thing you know about me. Because sometimes it's perhaps I'm a little too rigid. But it's like, if it's not in the calendar, it doesn't exist. The. Oh, there's only functions if it is in the calendar.

00;16;42;08 - 00;16;45;17
Brian Page
But I totally agree.

00;16;45;19 - 00;17;04;10
Paul Sullivan
And then, you know, on the least favorite side, I mean, one of the things, you know, you're trying to do, the two I'm trying to, you know, really normalize the role of, of lead that, that the man as the, you know, primary parent and everything sometimes is to be honest, you know, there's some things I can't do, some things I can't do with.

00;17;04;10 - 00;17;20;20
Paul Sullivan
Not like, you know, what I call go to work that's, you know, more traditional go to work desk, for example. I love to play golf, but, I'll probably play golf on a Tuesday when I have a little bit of spare time for me to play golf on a Saturday morning or, Sunday morning.

00;17;20;20 - 00;17;21;18
Brian Page
With, you.

00;17;21;18 - 00;17;38;14
Paul Sullivan
Know, some guys that it's just not happening. The only I did not if it's just purely for fun, you know, every so often I say my wife won't be fine with it, but I would I would feel guilty, a bit. And to, you know, it takes a lot of time and it. Yeah. And so, like, not having to do stuff like that.

00;17;38;14 - 00;17;54;29
Paul Sullivan
So like, there are a lot of, you know, sports that, you know, I used to play with adults and I now play them with my kids. And so like, you know, I go skiing with my oldest daughter, I play tennis, you know, with another daughter. And, you know, where we are in the northeast, there's this silly sport called paddle.

00;17;54;29 - 00;18;10;13
Paul Sullivan
Not to be confused with pickleball, but paddle. But you play it outside, you know, in the winter, you know, I play that with with one of my daughters. You know, I've actually got a lot of practice in, you know, past couple of years playing golf because my five year old loves golf. So she and I'll go and, you know, we'll do it for for 20 minutes.

00;18;10;13 - 00;18;26;01
Paul Sullivan
And I get great joy out of doing that. But, you know, the one of the best parts of having founded the Company of Dads is now, I don't feel like I have to make an excuse for my more traditional, you know, dad frat. I can say, look, man, you know, this is, you know, I, I can't be a hypocrite.

00;18;26;01 - 00;18;44;15
Paul Sullivan
This is what I started. This is it. This is who I am on the lead. Dad. You know, my wife has less control over her schedule on the weekends. One of the things we do is we try to stay together as much as we can as a family. You know, if you want to play golf on a Tuesday around 11 a.m., you know, I'm your guy, but but but that's, you know, that's the downside.

00;18;44;17 - 00;19;04;16
Paul Sullivan
You know, you joke, though, and it's a good story, Brian, but, you know, you going away and your wife not being, you know, as across all aspects of home life as she once was. But when you think about, you know, neither of us is in this to do, 100% where we were doing and we have partners we want to partner.

00;19;04;18 - 00;19;13;25
Paul Sullivan
What are some of the things that, you know, your wife still still likes to do that, that she she owns and considers hers?

00;19;13;28 - 00;19;35;16
Brian Page
Well, I say the first thing is any bill that, comes in the mail, that's. And it's kind of weird to differentiate that way, but that's how we decide who manages what bills. She's in finance as well. She enjoys, you know, to do that. So she's she's always taking that on and she enjoys it. And I'm happy to let her, continue to do that.

00;19;35;19 - 00;19;55;22
Brian Page
You know, I, I try to do so I don't have a problem doing the laundry. She has a problem when I do the laundry. I get the part of it is I think she enjoys it a little bit. And I think the other part is that I tend to mess things up. And, so, you know, there's a there's a little bit of that and, you know, just like, you know, like you, you know, my kids are doing things.

00;19;55;22 - 00;20;17;11
Brian Page
So, you know, if I've got to get rice somewhere and it's, you know, pretty far out of town and let's say he's got a league game and North Carolina three states away like she knows she's got to manage dinner or, you know, for me leave and things like that. And then, you know, I think, you know, between us, we, we basically I've taken the lead on anything that involving insurance.

00;20;17;14 - 00;20;36;21
Brian Page
But I have to say that's that that is for both of us. It's always, like, so painful, like, to deal with, with any of that paperwork. So, you know, that I, I do have to say, like, we did have some bumps in the road as we transition, because after her doing this for such a long time, you know, she had her way to get things done.

00;20;36;21 - 00;20;51;01
Brian Page
You know, she was efficient and it was her her own little ways to do things. So when I'm now doing those things, you know, those first few weeks, you know, I could just feel her looking over my shoulder like an unapproved keyboarding teacher. As I'm typing.

00;20;51;03 - 00;20;59;27
Paul Sullivan
You're watching me do it that way, right? You didn't really have. Oh, I mean, you can do it if you want. I mean, it's whatever, but I'm not saying.

00;21;00;02 - 00;21;04;21
Brian Page
Like. Yeah, it's all it's I mean, it's kind of a stupid to do it that way, but that's okay. You know, it's stupid.

00;21;04;21 - 00;21;09;18
Paul Sullivan
People do stupid things. So I just never knew this about you. And we've been together all these years.

00;21;09;20 - 00;21;30;07
Brian Page
We that it took some time to kind of get through that with where I'm just like, look, I own this. So, like, why don't you go, you know, swimming or something? So what kind of like, thinking this through, though, like, it's got to be for your circumstances. Pretty similar. Like, what are what are a couple things that your wife still still owns?

00;21;30;10 - 00;21;44;21
Paul Sullivan
It's funny, it's actually, it's similar in that, but, like, the details are different. Like my, my wife, I don't know, like, last year, she got it in her head that she wanted to have a second dryer because we had a whole bunch of towels, and it could, we could dry towels more. There's a lot you never.

00;21;44;21 - 00;21;58;15
Paul Sullivan
You don't know where the laundry room is. Like, I don't like the way they work and timing. Like, when really when the laundry is done over here, the towels are done over that. We just switch it over. So like, I don't we're not running, sort of, you know, commercial laundry. So.

00;21;58;17 - 00;21;59;07
Speaker 3
Like.

00;21;59;09 - 00;22;19;22
Paul Sullivan
Where are we going to be? But but like, one of these, I leave to her. This took a lot of learning is, you know, can you talk about couches? Like, anything to do with the house? Not to not is not sexist, not deferential. It's. I literally don't care. And so. Right we actually she is actually in the process of buying new couches and chair.

00;22;19;25 - 00;22;40;18
Paul Sullivan
Oh really. Yeah. It's where and like and the car carpet got destroyed because we had three dogs and the carpet is, you know, it is not great anymore. It's that, you know, had too much dog on it. And literally like, she'll show me something. And I think it is like the ugliest thing I've ever seen in my life.

00;22;40;18 - 00;22;42;07
Paul Sullivan
I'm like, oh, that's cool.

00;22;42;09 - 00;22;44;11
Speaker 3
You like it? Yeah. Yeah.

00;22;44;16 - 00;23;05;03
Paul Sullivan
Awesome. Yeah. Because, like, what you see behind me, like, this is my office in our in our house. And so, like, if anything goes bad, I can just come up here and, like, nobody touches this. This is my stuff. My little doll, something. All this. And it's the same thing with, like, I don't care about, cars. And so, like, you know, we had to we got, I got a new car that changes.

00;23;05;03 - 00;23;20;01
Paul Sullivan
What do you think? Because, like, do you like it? It's got great. Great. I literally, like, I could drive anything like, if it wasn't for, like, having so many kids and dogs and everything. I'm the guy who would go to the airport and say, like, what do you have for, like, you know, $14 a day? I'll take that out.

00;23;20;02 - 00;23;21;22
Speaker 3
Like, that's what.

00;23;21;24 - 00;23;41;24
Paul Sullivan
My wife would be like. What do you have that as a five star safety rating built in, you know, super restraint harnesses, you know, crumple zone. And I'm like, man, we're just driving it for like five miles. But all right, these things happen. So it's really like. But the overarching point of this is knowing what is super important, to your spouse or your partner and saying.

00;23;41;24 - 00;23;42;06
Brian Page
Right.

00;23;42;06 - 00;24;03;06
Paul Sullivan
What? That's that's yours. Yep. You know, you own that. And but then really letting that person own it and not saying, you know, hey. And but I learned this hard way. When were you living at 18 years when we would plan vacations? Because I would, like, pick, you know, where I would want to go. And then if anything went wrong, it'd be like, oh, I don't know what.

00;24;03;06 - 00;24;20;23
Paul Sullivan
We went there. You picked it. And literally I don't care. Like, I don't care where we go. Like if I really wanted to do something, if I really wanted to go, to Paris, which I wouldn't want to do because I have a five year old, then it would be miserable. But if I really want to do, I would, you know, save up, find a time all this and and plan it.

00;24;20;23 - 00;24;39;13
Paul Sullivan
But like a general vacation for like, you know, the kids school break. I'm like, let's go. Where do you want to go? Like, that sounds fine to me, you know, and but having that and because obviously there's so many things that I really care about and I'm really focused on, but being able to sort of, you know, let that part go, is important.

00;24;39;15 - 00;24;45;14
Brian Page
But I have to ask about the living in furniture, though, so the only like, I don't care what it looks like, I don't know what I.

00;24;45;20 - 00;24;47;13
Paul Sullivan
Did, I would underneath it. No, but.

00;24;47;15 - 00;25;08;12
Brian Page
Yes. Yeah. Yeah that's what okay so but but I, the only thing I said was I just want something that reclines. Apparently recliners are not in or my my response was I've never seen one in an architectural magazine. I haven't either, because I've never seen a marketing magazine that they are, recliners. Not in anymore.

00;25;08;14 - 00;25;26;07
Paul Sullivan
I had this conversation and two nights ago, down in our basement where we have, the the big TV. Okay, have, sort of a two, two cushion, a three cushion, and, a standalone recliner, all La-Z-Boy seats, these, that we bought.

00;25;26;10 - 00;25;27;06
Brian Page
That's great.

00;25;27;08 - 00;25;50;07
Paul Sullivan
The perennial, they're 18 years. They're probably 12 or 13 years old. And I remember this is the second house we've lived in together. When we're trying to sell the first house, a realtor came in and said, take took a look. And I love I love these things. Yeah. Took a look and said, do you, do you have, another couch?

00;25;50;09 - 00;25;54;12
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah, I got, I got a, I got a spare. How did you know I had a spare?

00;25;54;16 - 00;25;55;03
Brian Page
No. On it.

00;25;55;03 - 00;26;12;29
Paul Sullivan
It was a small house. It was first had like not a spare. I was like, you think you could, rent a why? Why am I rent? I got this right here. Like, it's just not going to show. Well, and I'm like, are you out of your mind? These things are so, you know, stinking comfortable. So, recliners are not in.

00;26;12;29 - 00;26;17;28
Paul Sullivan
But, there's a place in everybody's home for, a recliner.

00;26;18;00 - 00;26;37;07
Brian Page
I am glad. I'm glad you said that. You know, pause as we're talking. It feels like that. There's, like, so much overlap between, you know, the know your community and my community, so many synergies. Like when you think when you think that through, what are some overlaps that that you see yourself?

00;26;37;09 - 00;26;59;25
Paul Sullivan
I mean, I think, you know, it's two different terms, two different you when you look at the specifics where we're going at a, a different, you know, audience. But I think as we talk about this, it's really, you know, Lee dads and modern husbands are coming together around, you know, issues of the home, namely, you know, one of the big ones being in a personal finance, like, how do we, you know, make these decisions together?

00;26;59;25 - 00;27;20;25
Paul Sullivan
Okay. You know, you're going to be, you know, my calendar, you know, you're talking about the life insurance or the bills that come in the mail. You know, in my calendar. It's like, you know, okay, you know, pay the life insurance bill, pay this, you know, all these things that are recurring and and we talk about it. And at the end of the month, you know, if the credit card bill is just a normal credit card bill, you know, we probably don't talk about it.

00;27;20;25 - 00;27;37;18
Paul Sullivan
But if the credit card bill is slightly larger, like, what happened that month? And as you have these bigger, you know, conversations, you, you know, you and I have talked about this before. I mean, one of the things I love is to, you know, think of having a plan, you know, strict budgeting is like being on a, on a diet.

00;27;37;18 - 00;27;54;00
Paul Sullivan
But if you have a plan, I say, okay. Yeah, right. You know, this year, we're going to try to save X amount of dollars. You know, we know our expenses are why we're going to try to save X amount of dollars. And we're going to reserve, you know, Z amount of dollars to have some fun, you know, whatever that is anyway.

00;27;54;01 - 00;28;27;17
Paul Sullivan
Okay. You know, you're on the same page and I think often or too often and, and particularly, you know, areas where you and I live, you know, you're in suburban Atlanta, I'm in, you know, Connecticut, but really suburban New York City. You know, one person takes charge of the finances and the other person is oblivious. And, I mean, it's bad in so many ways, not in, like, the most tragic ways of, like, death or divorce, but it's just bad because you're not having, you know, a really, you know, crucial conversation that you're on the same page because, you know, what happens if you don't talk about money?

00;28;27;17 - 00;28;42;12
Paul Sullivan
Well, you can run out of it, obviously. But, you know, you can also develop, you know, a lot of resentment toward the other person and how, you know, he or she is spending. I mean, what do you think? I mean, what's your think when you think of the overlap between our our. Yeah, I think communities.

00;28;42;14 - 00;29;06;01
Brian Page
Yeah. I mean, I think you, you you hit the nail on the head, you know, I one of the, one of my, interest in doing this was just recognizing that, various surveys have shown that personal finance is one of the leading, reasons for for divorce, for stress. And and you know, that ultimately, what you're trying to do and I'm trying to do is just help couples be happier.

00;29;06;04 - 00;29;30;05
Brian Page
And, you know, if money is a tool to try to unlock more happiness and joy in your marriage, we should help people understand how to manage money together. And, you know, I spent my career, you know, trying to help, for students primarily and and teachers, understand how, you know, they could use their personal finances to, to improve their own lives.

00;29;30;05 - 00;29;53;25
Brian Page
And, and ultimately, you know, it comes down to personal finance being more personal than finance. And, you know, it's just a series of, judgment and value decisions. But, what makes it challenging is that there, first of all, there's very little, formal personal finance education. And for folks our age that they just didn't have it in school and and they have what's nice to see is that that's changing.

00;29;53;25 - 00;30;17;20
Brian Page
15 states now require personal finance to graduate. But not not just that, but but any of that education is really designed to teach you to manage your money independently. But, you know, when you're managing your money with someone else, it's a whole different ballgame, right? And, you know, it really comes down to understanding, you know, the difference between controlling money and managing money.

00;30;17;20 - 00;30;40;01
Brian Page
And, you know, controlling money needs to be done together. Managing money is task oriented and can be divided up. And making sure that you understand, you know, how to communicate about money and how to establish money dates and how to be able to recognize that your partner might have had a different history with money, and there could be tension and fear around it.

00;30;40;03 - 00;31;12;13
Brian Page
You know, and then the other thing that that, you know, you continue to bring up that just kind of this overarching, desire, you know, just, to be actively engaged and our families and I feel like that, you know, when I look back at my own life, I spent some quite a bit of our marriage, you know, really head down, focused on work and seeing myself as a provider and not not missing things, but but when I was home, I.

00;31;12;15 - 00;31;39;03
Brian Page
I wasn't really home, you know, my mind was so focused on, you know, constantly working. And I feel like that I missed out on some things and I, and I don't want, I don't want modern husbands who perhaps they have kids and perhaps they, they don't I don't want them to make the same mistake I do. So I feel like that our communities can hopefully provide, you know, some insight to make sure that when they're thinking through how they want to spend their life, that they're thinking through what they what matters most to them.

00;31;39;06 - 00;32;00;11
Brian Page
And so anyhow, yeah, that's, that's where I see, you know, the, the overlap. So, so when we're, you know, we're talking a lot of, a lot of our conversations have kind of revolved around thought, communication with our spouses. What what do you think, would be some of the most important things that you need to communicate regularly with your spouse about?

00;32;00;13 - 00;32;24;09
Paul Sullivan
I would think, you know, again, this is such a good question. We do this, we try it every day. We try to find a half an hour, to sort of go out and take a walk in our neighborhood. And it's not scripted. It's not. It's just. And, you know, our kids are old enough now where, you know, the older two can, you know, the ongoing can sit in, you know, read a book, play dolls.

00;32;24;09 - 00;32;42;08
Paul Sullivan
You know, we're literally in the neighborhood, all right. And we leave it open ended. So to me, I don't know if there's at least the way I look at it as a dad. Like, it's not a specific thing. Like you have to communicate. It's actually just giving yourself that space. Just as I told the story earlier on, where the joy of driving my kids around in the car is not going from place to place.

00;32;42;08 - 00;32;55;22
Paul Sullivan
It's not having the radio on, not having an iPad on, and they have to talk to you. So you have that right. Half an hour and we have dogs, so the dogs need to be walked anyway. So it's not like you. You can't. So you got to take a walk for the day. And so we do it together.

00;32;55;24 - 00;33;16;14
Paul Sullivan
And you know, sometimes, you know, I tell her about my day. Tell about, you know, how the company dad's going some some time she tells me about, you know, work and how it's going. Sometimes we we, we talk about the girls and, you know, what's going on, good or bad. You know, so we're human. So sometimes we make fun of our neighbors and the, like, bad choices they're making with our landscaping.

00;33;16;16 - 00;33;41;22
Paul Sullivan
Hope they're not listening. But, you know, and you have fun. But it's really it's like having that, you know, space to to do that, because otherwise what happens? Like, it just it just goes so quickly. And I'll say another thing, this is like in terms of like spending money, to, to buy time. You know, one of the things we always have is, you know, sort of a high school, high school babysitter, who on the weekends can come for?

00;33;41;29 - 00;33;56;28
Paul Sullivan
Not every weekend, but but, you know, some weekends come on a Saturday or Sunday in the afternoon when we've already had family time. We've already done whatever and come for two hours, come for three hours. And, you know, Laura and I made. That's a great time to take a longer walk. That's a great time. We're just big walkers.

00;33;57;00 - 00;34;19;02
Paul Sullivan
That's a great time to, like, sit outside and have a glass of wine and just have that uninterrupted time to, you know, sort of connect, but say like, okay, you know what's important because otherwise, you know, you don't want to go back and forth and like review lists like you. Okay, right. You know, you'll have a conversation. So, yeah, it's been it's been awesome, man.

00;34;19;05 - 00;34;26;11
Paul Sullivan
How do you join the modern husbands community? Like, do you have, like, like a, like a test? Like, if you're not good, you're out.

00;34;26;11 - 00;34;31;07
Brian Page
Or are you doing. It's just a ten question test. It's pretty easy.

00;34;31;10 - 00;34;35;12
Paul Sullivan
I got each question in 13 parts.

00;34;35;15 - 00;34;55;10
Brian Page
Video responses, three essays. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's quite easy. Just just go to Modern Husbands. Com and, you know, you'll see at the top, you know, how to join the community and you know, we have various ways in which we try to, you know, pull people together and, and have these kinds of conversations and share information that can, help improve the lives of, of partners.

00;34;55;13 - 00;34;59;28
Brian Page
And what about what about you, Paul? How can folks, join, join your community?

00;34;59;28 - 00;35;24;04
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You go to the company of dads.com, and as I've said from from the earliest of days, you know, we're not checking IDs. So if you're a dad, you work full time, part time to add all your time to your kids, you know, come on board. But if you're also just a dad, if you're traditional, you know, go to work, dad, and you want to get some tips, you know, from the dads, the dads in the trenches, you know, join us if you just want to look at some of the, the funny videos, you know, go ahead.

00;35;24;04 - 00;35;28;20
Paul Sullivan
But it's a, it's a, you know, all all are welcome model.

00;35;28;23 - 00;35;38;01
Brian Page
Love it. Well, I'm a proud member of the Company of dads community. And I always love getting your newsletters and following along on social media.

00;35;38;03 - 00;35;57;18
Paul Sullivan
Thanks, Ben. And I'm part of my husband's too, so that this has been wonderful. Thank you. Brian. So, everyone, you've been listening to, Paul Sullivan, founder of the Company of Dads, and Brian Page, founder of Modern Husbands, doing the first joint podcast. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as we have.