EP38: What Working Dads Can Ask For: An Attorney’s Advice

Interview with Michael Cohen / Employment lawyer, Philly sports fan, Lead Dad

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

When Michael Cohen’s first daughter was born, some 20 years ago, he was afraid to take paternity leave. Not super shocking in the early 2000s – unless you know that Coach Mike, as his daughters and their friends call him, is an employment lawyer who helps companies craft their workplace policies – including around parental leave. Back then, he was afraid to ask the senior partners at his firm for time off when so many of them boasted about the parenting moments they had missed. Today, Mike is that senior partner and he encourages men and women to take time to be parents. He trusts they’ll get everything done and knows how important that flexibility is. When it comes to the companies he advises, he said things are getting better but there’s still room for improvement. Listen to him talk about what companies should do, what employees need to ask for and how much he learned from coaching his daughters in sports.

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Transcript

00;00;05;08 - 00;00;22;11
PAUL SULLIVAN
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host on the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a dad in a world where men were the primary parents often feel they have to hide, or at least not talk about their roles. One thing I know from personal experience is being a dad is not a traditional role for men.

00;00;22;14 - 00;00;41;12
PAUL SULLIVAN
Whether you work full time, part time football all your time to your family, parenting is so often left to mothers or paid caregivers. But here at the Company of Dads, our goal is to shake all that off and create a community for fathers, family, dads, and to welcome other dads who want to learn from them. Today my guest is Michael Cohen, an attorney better known as Mike.

00;00;41;12 - 00;01;03;05
PAUL SULLIVAN
So it's not to be confused with that other Michael Cohen theater. Mike is a partner in the law firm of Dwane Morris in Philadelphia. He's also lead dad to his two daughters, one in high school, the other in college. His wife is a director for a national nonprofit. Mike Specialty is employment law, which is particularly relevant for fathers who want to take time off or just be more present as dads.

00;01;03;10 - 00;01;23;01
PAUL SULLIVAN
Now, not everyone can be a dad. But most every father wants to be there cannot be done without impacting a man's career. And can we have true gender equity without men feeling they can have greater flexibility at work? I think we're going to have some great lessons here coming out of Covid today. So, Mike, welcome to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;23;03 - 00;01;27;15
MICHAEL COHEN
Paul, thank you so much. It is so nice to be here and so great to talk to you.

00;01;27;18 - 00;01;41;11
PAUL SULLIVAN
You know, your kids are a bit older. You know, they've kind of had this 20 year or so span as a as a lead that how important was it for you to be present in their lives throughout? And how do you balance that with work?

00;01;41;13 - 00;02;01;17
MICHAEL COHEN
It was everything for me really, starting from even before, me and Matty were born, me as my, 19 year old, Matty as my 15 year old. I used to joke with my wife Jamie, all the time. I used to tell her, like. Like I'm good at very few things. And the thing that I know I'm going to be really, really good at is being a dad.

00;02;01;18 - 00;02;23;13
MICHAEL COHEN
So, like, let's get this thing going. And from very early on, and when my older daughter was born, I was just a few years out of law school, so I was working the kinds of hours that a lot of people work in big law firms. And I didn't want ever to lose any kind of connection with my girls.

00;02;23;16 - 00;02;47;08
MICHAEL COHEN
That was of paramount importance then, as it is now. And you have to sort of I sort of carve my own path at that point in terms of the establishment of hours and expectations, and I really did my best while still working very hard. Not to lose ever. The contact and and the feel were with my girls.

00;02;47;10 - 00;03;00;24
PAUL SULLIVAN
You know, as an employment attorney. Is it? Is it safe to say that you had, generous paternity leave and, you know, lots of flexibility when you became a dad? Was it easy for you to go and talk to the senior partners and say, hey, I need some time off?

00;03;00;26 - 00;03;35;28
MICHAEL COHEN
It was incredibly not. Yeah. So, look, we're going back, as I said, roughly 20 years ago, at this point, at a time where, interestingly, I actually started to write an article at the time called The Myth of, paternity Leave. Because organizations would talk about it and the importance of it. But if you really took it in equal parts to the mom, the, I think it's safe to say it was frowned upon whether it was done outloud or expressly.

00;03;36;00 - 00;03;48;28
MICHAEL COHEN
I think you were looked at differently if you were right from the jump. The dad were somebody who really did take incredibly seriously, that work life balance.

00;03;49;00 - 00;03;58;09
PAUL SULLIVAN
I don't want to make light of this as a super serious subject, but yeah. Isn't it a tad bit ironic that the employment attorney, wasn't able to have more flexibility at work?

00;03;58;12 - 00;04;27;26
MICHAEL COHEN
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And and look, the reality is we've evolved. A organizations are better at recognizing the importance of dual parenting, of the fact that there are plenty of dads out there who are lead dads, who are wildly, involved parents who don't take on the gender roles that existed. Right? Like mad men. Mad men. Not a thing anymore.

00;04;27;28 - 00;04;47;17
MICHAEL COHEN
Dads want to be involved. And one of the benefits I actually have given the kind of work that I do, is I have the ability to have conversations with organizations who are formulating policies, who are changing parties, and talk to them about my personal experiences and other, personal experiences that the friends of mine, colleagues of mine have had.

00;04;47;20 - 00;04;56;18
MICHAEL COHEN
To really try and impact the way they are creating policy that will affect the men that work inside of their workplaces.

00;04;56;21 - 00;05;14;20
PAUL SULLIVAN
Yeah. I mean, you're you're, you know, a 50, some odd, 50 something, partner, in a law firm now. What is the you know, how do you look at those, you know, 30 something, associates who who might come to you, and say, hey, Mike, you know, not even my my, I'm a new dad.

00;05;14;20 - 00;05;38;00
PAUL SULLIVAN
That that's been messed up, but, you know, my seven year old, really needs me today, and I need to get out early to go do this. But, you know, I can imagine the people then kind of hemming and I. But, you know, I'll go get back on line tonight and I'll finish this. How is that conversation that you have with them differ from the conversations at that partner had with you all those years ago, or that you perceive that partner would have those conversations over the years?

00;05;38;02 - 00;06;03;00
MICHAEL COHEN
So let me answer that by sharing a very brief anecdote, if you don't mind. I recall when, Jamie was pregnant with me. So we're going back 20 years or so. I shared my excitement with a couple of partners inside my firm at the point I have not made partner yet. And they talk to me about experiences they had as new parents and talking about all the things that they missed.

00;06;03;02 - 00;06;14;10
MICHAEL COHEN
And it occurred to me after I left their offices that they weren't complaining. It was almost as though it were a badge of honor that they, as.

00;06;14;16 - 00;06;24;24
PAUL SULLIVAN
I was so dedicated to the firm. And, I mean, this is the toxic connection between masculinity and and money that I'm going to go out there and I'm not going to be there.

00;06;24;26 - 00;06;48;02
MICHAEL COHEN
And it doesn't have to be that way, particularly one of the things that we've learned, thank heavens, over the course of the last couple of years, is the reality that absent a time crunch on something, things can get done. When things get done that is not unique to the law firm industry. I think that is fairly widespread. So back to your your question.

00;06;48;02 - 00;07;08;20
MICHAEL COHEN
When the dad with a seven year old asks, you know, for my help or my advice or my thoughts, again, there are times where it's unavoidable. There are times where if there's a court filing, if there's something that has to be delivered by five, there are some things that you just can't avoid. And that's again not unique to the legal industry outside of that.

00;07;08;23 - 00;07;20;27
MICHAEL COHEN
My response is, go be with your family. If get back on line later tonight, that's great. You know these. What is it? The word emergency doesn't mean what most people think it means.

00;07;20;29 - 00;07;21;24
PAUL SULLIVAN
Exactly.

00;07;21;26 - 00;07;40;06
MICHAEL COHEN
So my my response is family first. It always has been. It always will be. I happen to work in a firm and in a department where that kind of idea is fairly pervasive. Does that say that there are not exceptions? No. There are.

00;07;40;08 - 00;07;54;14
PAUL SULLIVAN
So, you know, Mike, I remember you tell me sports were were big for you. How to talk to me about how you made time to be in involved with with what your, your girls did and, you know, helping you to be part of that team as a, as a coach.

00;07;54;16 - 00;08;14;22
MICHAEL COHEN
Yeah. So sports is big in our household. But I was a baseball player. My wife was a D1 tennis player. Sports has been a big part of both of my daughter's upbringing. And one of the things that I have been so unbelievably blessed to have is two daughters who want me to coach. That is not always the case when you are.

00;08;14;22 - 00;08;32;16
MICHAEL COHEN
And I check in with them before every season. Sure. This is something you still want me to do? No pressure at all. I am happy to take a step back. No, dad, we want you to do it. Which are? Which is music to my ears every year. And that was something that became very important to me when I established my schedule.

00;08;32;17 - 00;08;49;19
MICHAEL COHEN
I know that there are certain times of the year as a softball coach that are going to be busier than others. I know there are certain times of day that are going to be busier than others, so that means that I've got to get up at 4:00 in the morning to get stuff done to, so that I know that come three.

00;08;49;22 - 00;09;10;10
MICHAEL COHEN
I could get to Maddie's game because I know she's pitching that day. I could when Mia was playing. I know I could get to me as game because something was going to happen in that game. The coaching has given me such a wonderful opportunity to connect, in such a special way with my girls. And and it doesn't happen as much on the field.

00;09;10;12 - 00;09;17;09
MICHAEL COHEN
Because as a coach, you have to be the coach to everybody on the field, right? It's the car, right?

00;09;17;11 - 00;09;18;28
PAUL SULLIVAN
It's. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00;09;19;01 - 00;09;43;22
MICHAEL COHEN
And that, to me, is everything. When, So my older daughter has always been a competitive athlete. My younger daughter likes it. Doesn't love it to the degree that my older daughter did. And I wasn't sure that after my older daughter, as we like to say, quoting Serena evolved from softball and away from softball. I wasn't sure whether Maddie was going to want me to continue to coach her travel program if she was going to even continue to play.

00;09;43;24 - 00;10;14;09
MICHAEL COHEN
And I started writing again that this is what I do when I have thought, I just sit down at my computer and I start writing. And it was it was something called Enjoy the Ride and it was all about the car ride, which of course was a metaphor for enjoy the experience, be present in all of it the good, the bad and the otherwise, and sport has given me such a just a wonderful opportunity to connect with my girls in a way that I just don't think I otherwise would have had.

00;10;14;11 - 00;10;31;29
PAUL SULLIVAN
Oh, you don't hear everything in the car. You hear everything not just about what they're thinking, but what their friends are doing, what the interactions are. I love it. You know, when I intake one of my daughters somewhere and her friends, you know, three daughters, their friends are in the car, and then I just, you know, I turn the radio on so they think I'm not listening.

00;10;31;29 - 00;10;43;24
PAUL SULLIVAN
So I, you know, softly enough. But then it's because they're talking about so-and-so did this or something. Did that. Can you believe this? And it's amazing insight that, you know, we wouldn't get otherwise because otherwise it's like, how's your day? Good.

00;10;43;27 - 00;11;09;13
MICHAEL COHEN
But I think it's blessed in that implicit in that is that your daughter trusts you, because if she didn't look, they're not stupid. They know, notwithstanding the fact that the radio is on for, they know you're listening, they know you're there. And if the relationship didn't exist, then the trust weren't there. You better believe your daughter would shut those conversation down.

00;11;09;15 - 00;11;37;29
MICHAEL COHEN
Yeah. You know, so my older daughter is a sophomore at Michigan Go Blue, and we had parents weekend last weekend. And I had one of the most wonderful experiences, not because the parents weekend wasn't great. It was, my wife and I went to a tailgate for her sorority at, you know, 945 on Saturday morning because the game was noon, and I, I'd met a few of her friends, but I hadn't met a lot of the young women in in her sorority.

00;11;38;02 - 00;11;49;03
MICHAEL COHEN
And every person I met, every young woman I met came up. Coach Mike, coach Mike, it's so great to meet you, because my 19 year old daughter still calls me coach Mike, which I wear such.

00;11;49;05 - 00;11;50;07
PAUL SULLIVAN
Not not dad, not coach.

00;11;50;11 - 00;12;08;23
MICHAEL COHEN
No, it's coach Mike. And it's such a term of it's become such a term of endearment for me. Yeah. And to have all of these women whom I've never met before come running. Coach Mike. Coach Mike. It was just it was very sweet. And it was a reminder of the impact. It's exactly right. Let's.

00;12;08;23 - 00;12;30;04
PAUL SULLIVAN
This is one of, let's switch from the personal to the professional for you as, you know, an employment attorney coming out of Covid. Where where are companies when it comes to employment policies? I mean, we saw the you know, we all learned that most white collar workers could work remotely and, you know, figure things out. But, you know, I'm going to guess that employment policy maybe hasn't gone up yet.

00;12;30;04 - 00;12;36;03
PAUL SULLIVAN
But where where are we now? Where are we with employment policy as it relates to people wanting to be human, wanted to be dads and moms.

00;12;36;05 - 00;13;05;08
MICHAEL COHEN
And I think we're getting better. I think Covid really do. I think Covid has taught us, generally, the impact of being more present with family has become, and I think organization is really are the ones that are successful, the ones that are retaining employees in the era of the Great Resignation, where a lot of organizations who aren't doing things right really are hemorrhaging, staff, hemorrhaging employees.

00;13;05;10 - 00;13;24;28
MICHAEL COHEN
The ones that are doing it right who have recognized over the course of the last couple of years the importance of things like empathy, the importance of things like mental health awareness, the importance of the ability to interact with your family even though you're home and sometimes you feel even more disconnected because you're home, right? Organizing.

00;13;24;28 - 00;13;52;15
MICHAEL COHEN
And one of those areas, and I'll, you know, beat you to the punch a little bit, I think is the impact it's had on paternity leave. You know, back to the conversation we started to have at the beginning. And what we're starting to see organizations really start to get is dads are way, way more involved, today than they were 20 years ago when I started to become a dad.

00;13;52;15 - 00;14;19;13
MICHAEL COHEN
Certainly more, involved than they were 50 years ago when I was born. And, you know, whether it is in the creation of leave policies that don't really create a distinction between the amount of leave a parent can get following the birth of a child, irrespective of whether you're mom or whether you're dad. Whether it's something my firm recently has done and it's it's incredible.

00;14;19;13 - 00;14;39;23
MICHAEL COHEN
It is such a wonderful step forward because they've created these ramp up and ramp down periods pre and post birth. And it applies to mom and to dad or to both moms or to both dads. And the idea being that you can in the four weeks leading up to the time birth is going to happen, you can ramp down.

00;14;39;25 - 00;14;46;02
MICHAEL COHEN
We understand that you, as a parent, are going to have to pay attention to some things that you've never had to pay.

00;14;46;02 - 00;14;51;15
PAUL SULLIVAN
Attention, even you as a parent, you you as a human being. I mean, they're biological changes that are happening in your body. Yeah.

00;14;51;18 - 00;15;23;15
MICHAEL COHEN
Yeah. And look, the biological, biological changes may not be happening to me as a dad, but it means they certainly are happening. I'm in an opposite sex relationship, certainly happening to my wife. Right. And I have to not only be there for her, but certainly take on even more responsibility at that point. So this ramp down period really is such a wonderful idea where you can decrease your efficiency, decrease your output, and then for the three months following the birth of the child, it's the ramp back up period.

00;15;23;15 - 00;15;35;16
MICHAEL COHEN
Recognizing again, we have these needs as parents following the birth of the child, as to your point, as humans following the birth of the child to get back up to where it is, we actually do need to be.

00;15;35;21 - 00;15;53;07
PAUL SULLIVAN
I mean, I see this. I think, you know, we can all agree that, depending on your point of view, the United States is woefully backward when it comes to any policy or, everybody, could use maternity paternity leave at some significant rate. And I'm not going to debate whether or not three months is long enough. Six months, that's the move.

00;15;53;07 - 00;16;22;09
PAUL SULLIVAN
But, you know, as you know, your girls are, you know, late teen teenager and late teenager. But things happen when their ten things happen when they're 13. And, you know, I did a podcast a couple months ago, Dana Suskind, who wrote a great book called Parent Nation, and she talks about her, her husband, who passed away, but that was one of his father children, a famous surgeon, in Chicago, and used to have to put it into his calendar, you know, meeting with so-and-so, chairman of the X, Y, Z department.

00;16;22;13 - 00;16;30;17
PAUL SULLIVAN
When what he was really doing was going to his kid's soccer game, and he got called out one day. Now, I think most of us can put that in our calendar, go into ballet, go into soccer.

00;16;30;19 - 00;16;31;14
MICHAEL COHEN
Fine.

00;16;31;17 - 00;16;47;27
PAUL SULLIVAN
But that's not, you know, sometimes your child just need you. Sometimes your child need you to sit with her or him for an hour or take a walk. And how does that factor in? Like when people say, you know, my ten year old needs me, I need to go to this. Oh, are you going to an open house?

00;16;47;27 - 00;16;57;25
PAUL SULLIVAN
Are you going to ballet? Like, no, I'm not, I'm just she's having trouble. It's whatever. How does that? Has Covid had any impact on that? Again, you're talking about humans here and here.

00;16;57;25 - 00;17;34;19
MICHAEL COHEN
Problems that happen. I think it has what we're seeing and I'm not going to say massively, but what we're seeing to some degree is we're going to see some organizations going towards an unlimited PTO kind of policy. And, and it's interesting because the organizations that have gone that way report huge successes in terms of productivity. What we're seeing is organizations requiring employees to take certain amount of PTO, recognizing that it will help them clear their own heads, and people who work and work and work and work eventually burnout against fatigue.

00;17;34;21 - 00;17;54;22
MICHAEL COHEN
The reason I mentioned those is sort of a backdrop. An answer to your question is, I think the more flexible we can be recognizing that parents have these responsibilities and these are real responsibilities, it's not an official event to go to a recital, to go to a game, to go to a parent teacher conference. These are the to your point part.

00;17;54;24 - 00;18;20;01
MICHAEL COHEN
You know, my kid's having a tough day, right? Or my kid needs help with some stuff, whatever that stuff happens to be at the moment. And the more we can say to that employee, to that colleague, we'll take care of it. I got your back again. Is it always possible? It's not right, but it's certainly more possible or plausible or feasible than I think.

00;18;20;01 - 00;18;40;28
MICHAEL COHEN
Sometimes people actually believe it to be. Okay, more humanity. We can express and demonstrate the better off we are. One of my favorite quotes and I'm going to botch it, so I'm not going to try and get it exactly right. It's from Robin Williams, who's somebody who obviously grappled with mental illness throughout the entirety of his life.

00;18;41;00 - 00;19;06;20
MICHAEL COHEN
And effectively, what he said was the more we understand that everybody we come into contact with on a day to day basis is dealing with something we don't know about, the better off we're all going to be. Everybody's got stuff right. And the more flexible we can be, certainly as it relates to this conversation with our kids with regard to parenting, the better off we're going to be and the more loyalty you then engender in your employee, which means they're going to stay in.

00;19;06;20 - 00;19;09;18
MICHAEL COHEN
They're going to work hard. Little bits of effort on you.

00;19;09;21 - 00;19;29;27
PAUL SULLIVAN
I always say that instead of giving them an extra five grand, ten grand every day wants more money. Give them, you know, the not just, you know, the the days to do this, but like the feeling that they can actually take those days. I mean, I've seen some companies when the person is on PTO that you get the email saying, I'm on PTO into the session today and I am not going to read your emails.

00;19;30;00 - 00;19;39;02
PAUL SULLIVAN
So if you if this is urgent, just contact me. You know, in a week when I'm back, which I think is remarkable because otherwise you take time off and then you're inundated with all these emails.

00;19;39;05 - 00;20;00;14
MICHAEL COHEN
And most organizations are built as teams, aren't they? Right. So none of us is indispensable. No. None of us is the only person absent, maybe that surgeon that you were talking about. But none of us is the. None of us is the only person who can do the thing that needs to get done. And if it is, then you've built a team that doesn't function the way it's supposed.

00;20;00;14 - 00;20;01;28
PAUL SULLIVAN
Then you have a broader management issue.

00;20;02;03 - 00;20;10;19
MICHAEL COHEN
Of course you do. Which means somebody else got to you. And if somebody else doesn't, got you right. Yeah, I think we've got it. We've got a failure in a team.

00;20;10;21 - 00;20;22;03
PAUL SULLIVAN
So legally, I mean, what can a dad or mom for that matter ask for? And what can they not ask for? What is, you know, totally acceptable? And what is, you know.

00;20;22;06 - 00;20;30;11
MICHAEL COHEN
Beyond it's going to depend on the culture of the organization. And I know that sounds like kind of a lousy answer. Look, there are certain that.

00;20;30;11 - 00;20;31;12
PAUL SULLIVAN
That that is a lousy answer.

00;20;31;12 - 00;20;58;06
MICHAEL COHEN
Right? Yeah. I'm sorry. And let's let me give you some concrete. Let me give you something concrete. There are certain things to which we are entitled, as parents, for birth of a child or placement of a child in foster as a foster parent, or adoption under the federal Family Medical Leave Act. Assuming that you've worked 12 months leading up to the date, you need to leave 1250 hours leading up to the date you need to leave, and you have 50 or more employees with 75 miles.

00;20;58;13 - 00;21;32;21
MICHAEL COHEN
The employee is entitled to 12 weeks of job protected unpaid benefit. Continue. Leave. You heard me say unpaid, which is to say the federal law does not require payment for that kind of leave. There are states that require payment, for portions of it. There are organizations and we're seeing it with increased frequency these days that are, paying not as part of PTO, but as part of this, a separate bank are paying employees when they go out on this kind of paternity, maternity, parental leave.

00;21;32;23 - 00;21;39;22
MICHAEL COHEN
Yeah. So what should an employee ask for? What they can get.

00;21;39;25 - 00;21;59;18
PAUL SULLIVAN
Yeah. But that comes back to the fear. You know, we always say, like, in an ideal world, you know, the partner at your law firm or the, you know, senior person, line manager or whatever would would have his or her schedule as an open book. And then you'd be able to see, oh, wow, you know, she's actually taking or he's actually taking time to go and, you know, be with his or her daughter son.

00;21;59;24 - 00;22;16;04
PAUL SULLIVAN
Oh, I guess I can do that. You we have to lead by example. And so you may be entitled for something, but some people are afraid and they're afraid because it could cost them a promotion. But we're talking the white collar world in the blue collar role. It could cost them their job, or it'll certainly cost them an hourly wage.

00;22;16;04 - 00;22;32;13
PAUL SULLIVAN
And is there is there any movement? I know you said some certain states are doing this, but is there any movement again to sort of, you know, trust employees and incentivize their humanity for the hope that they will remain loyal and long term, be better worker if short term they're not present.

00;22;32;15 - 00;22;56;15
MICHAEL COHEN
The answer is there are some, right? There are some jurisdictions, some states, nothing really meaningful at federal level. There are some states that are again mandating paid time off for parental leave. There are states that and cities that mandate, believe it or not, time off to attend parent teacher conferences. They're not many. They're very, very few.

00;22;56;17 - 00;23;28;02
MICHAEL COHEN
But what it comes down to and again, this is where I see my role as, as a counselor as opposed to a lawyer, is encouraging organizations to recognize that the better they are to their employees in these times that are more fraught with stress, more fraught with difficulty. Overwhelmingly, the more loyalty we're going to build in, the more productive employee we're going to have, again, very, very small investment for very, very large return.

00;23;28;04 - 00;23;40;04
MICHAEL COHEN
And that math works out pretty easily, doesn't it, when you always want a big return for a small investment. And it's what the evolved managers and organizations really are starting to understand. And, and.

00;23;40;04 - 00;23;57;17
PAUL SULLIVAN
What you see that you as you, as you said, as an a as a counselor, not as an attorney, as a counselor who goes in and you're creating these plans, you're creating a lot, correct. A lot of these lead plans. So as a counselor, you're allowed to you're obligated to ask the tough questions like, oh, is this really what you want?

00;23;57;17 - 00;24;10;23
PAUL SULLIVAN
Or are you sure this is what you want? Or if you do this, it will have these consequences, good or bad. How have the questions that you're asking around those issues change in 2022 from from 2019?

00;24;10;26 - 00;24;34;24
MICHAEL COHEN
They are much, much more focused on mental health right now. Recognizing that as parents we are all dealing with issues the likes of which we had not dealt prior to 2020. Look, if you have a child, for example, who has an underlying mental health concern that in all likelihood, over the course of the last couple of years has been exacerbated, for sure.

00;24;34;27 - 00;25;03;01
MICHAEL COHEN
Covid did and has continued to do a number on all of us but kids, particularly with underlying, mental health, with underlying mental health concerns. So, are we making sure that we're giving our employees the flexibility to take care of themselves? For sure. But in addition, to take care of those people well, for whom they have responsibility, kids, parents, you know, adult parents, those kinds of things.

00;25;03;01 - 00;25;43;01
MICHAEL COHEN
So the questions I'm asking now are even more sort of people centric and people focused and empathy focused than they were even a few years ago. I always like to think that that was something that I really held on to. I'm the product of two shrinks. My parents are both psychologist. They're incredibly divorced. But, you know, I was made it was made very clear to me at a very young age, you know, that what's going on between the ears and in your heart and and it is just so critically important to your day to day existence.

00;25;43;01 - 00;26;03;01
MICHAEL COHEN
So I've always viewed that as my role. We're finally getting to a point where organizations are paying a lot more attention to it than they have in the past in the form of, for example, back to what were you asked earlier in the form of of paid sick time that's going to apply to an illness of your kid.

00;26;03;03 - 00;26;18;20
MICHAEL COHEN
You don't have to do that under most circumstances. But the evolved organizations are not taking that away from an employee's PTO. But they're saying, here's some extra time. We know that you're going to have to deal with this. So here's some extra time you may need to take away from work. That's fine.

00;26;18;23 - 00;26;38;23
PAUL SULLIVAN
Yeah. And I also think from like an equity point of view, we have this isn't, you know, the company dad doesn't it's call be a dad. It's not the company of all people. But I would say that this means, certainly some companies are also probably extending similar, policies to people who have to care for their own parents as a parent age and struggle.

00;26;38;24 - 00;27;02;28
MICHAEL COHEN
Yeah, yeah. And again, for me, the more of those provisions we can create and allow for our employees, the better they're going to be to us in the long run. Yeah, yeah. It's not complicated math. If it were, I wouldn't understand it. This is pretty basic stuff. Small investment, huge return. Why not? What are you waiting for?

00;27;03;01 - 00;27;26;19
PAUL SULLIVAN
Mike Cohn, thank you for being my guest on the Company of Dads podcast today. One last question. So, it's prediction time. I'm not going to ask you what the workplace is going to look like next year, because probably just as much in disarray this year. But you go out five years and you look at, you know, the companies that are the leaders in their space, the companies that are pulling employees from from other firms that are less evolved.

00;27;26;21 - 00;27;35;20
PAUL SULLIVAN
What are those companies going to look like from the perspective of how they treat, you know, working dads and working moms?

00;27;35;23 - 00;28;04;18
MICHAEL COHEN
We will continue to blur and hopefully at some point, completely eliminate the distinction between what moms get versus what good dad get. Look, we can't eliminate that distinction as it relates, for example, to short term disability payments. For a mom who has just given birth, dad is not going to be entitled to that. But in terms of the amount of leave, whether it's paid, whether it's not, recognizing that most families these days are dual parenting families, right?

00;28;04;21 - 00;28;34;06
MICHAEL COHEN
This isn't we're not living in the Cleaver household. This is 2022. And if we're talking about 2027, what we're going to see is organizations that have adopted and have embraced notions like paid family leave, because they understand that it again, it's a very short term and small benefit for a very potentially large return. We're going to we're going to get the, the flexibility that we understood we had to have and create during the pandemic.

00;28;34;08 - 00;28;55;14
MICHAEL COHEN
The organizations that are continuing with that level of flexibility are the ones that we're seeing retaining their employees and therefore retaining productivity and therefore increasing profits. And just creating this loyalty and sense of retention. And by the way, when you have happy employees, it makes it an awful lot easier to recruit more people. Sure, inside of your organization.

00;28;55;20 - 00;29;19;25
MICHAEL COHEN
So I think what we're going to see, generally speaking, is this increase, tolerance or a bad word. What we're going to see is an increase embracing of flexibility at work. Whatever at work looks like, whether at work is me in my basement like I am right now, or you in a room that's way cooler than in my basement, or it means I'm back at work.

00;29;19;25 - 00;29;29;04
MICHAEL COHEN
But there's more flexibility being provided to me while I'm actually in the workplace itself. I think generally that's what I'm I'm hopeful we're going to see.

00;29;29;06 - 00;29;47;24
PAUL SULLIVAN
Now, can you think of how much progress we've made it to 20 years, but from when you first became a leader to now, and to hopefully, if you know, some sometimes good things come out of bad things like, like Covid to hopefully this is an accelerator for change. Michael, and again, thank you for being my guest on the Company Dads podcast.

00;29;47;24 - 00;29;49;03
PAUL SULLIVAN
I thoroughly enjoyed it.

00;29;49;06 - 00;29;50;20
MICHAEL COHEN
Thanks, Paul was really my pleasure.