EP63: Why A Senior Tech Exec Gives Credit To Her Husband

Interview With Alison Graham, Global Exec, Lead Dad Advocate

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Alison Graham, a native Australian, came to the States 25 years ago and has had a remarkable career in tech - Unisys. Computer Associates. IBM. Salesforce. Amazon Web Services. She credits her Lead Dad husband - who was also working in tech - with being the go-to parent when she was traveling at different times in her career. Hear what he did that mattered. 

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Transcript

00;00;05;05 - 00;00;30;19
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being a dad in a world where men with a go to parent aren't always accepted at work, among their friends, or in their community for what they're doing. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. Our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the company that we have another podcast focused on global that issues the various features, including Lead Dad of the week.

00;00;30;19 - 00;00;57;23
Paul Sullivan
We have our community online and in person, and but the one stop shop for all of this is our newsletter, The Dad. So sign up today for the dad at the company. Does.com backslash the death that the company dad.com backslash the death. Today my guest is Alison Graham, a very successful businesswoman who credits her dad husband with being the go to parent when she was traveling at different times in her career.

00;00;57;26 - 00;01;27;02
Paul Sullivan
Allison, a native Australian, came to the States 25 years ago and has had a remarkable career in tech. Unisys Computer Associates, IBM, Salesforce, Amazon Web Service. Most recently, she switched into the world of real estate. We're going to do, something a little different today. Allison and me. Allison is going to share with us the five things she learned after taking a big job when her son Cooper was just two.

00;01;27;04 - 00;01;40;14
Paul Sullivan
He's 11 today. We're also going to talk about the role of her husband, Ted, a long time IBM executive played in being the lead dad when her career accelerated. Allison, welcome to the company dads podcast.

00;01;40;16 - 00;01;42;19
Alison Graham
Thank you for pleasure to be here.

00;01;42;22 - 00;01;55;11
Paul Sullivan
First of all, before we get to the top five here, why in the world do you leave? You know, beautiful, fun, sunny Australia to come to New York City in the 1990s. That is, as my father would say, that's crazy.

00;01;55;13 - 00;02;16;17
Alison Graham
Yeah. You know what? I had an opportunity at 25. I was 25 years old. To come to New York. And I was like, wow. And at the time, the company that was asking me to come, I said, it'll just be a year or two. And I was like, that sounds amazing. And then it's exactly an adventure. So fast forward to 2023.

00;02;16;20 - 00;02;20;04
Alison Graham
I'm still here. You know, I couldn't couldn't stay away from the place.

00;02;20;06 - 00;02;36;25
Paul Sullivan
Wow. But you always worked in tech. You know, you sort of, you know, as all of us do in our career, you work your way up, you change jobs, you know things. Things get better. I always look back. You and I have a mutual friend I look back to. You know, when she and I worked together, in our 20s.

00;02;36;25 - 00;02;56;09
Paul Sullivan
You don't have any kids. You're. You're in New York. It's. It's awesome and fun and free. But then life gets, you know, if you're ambitious, life gets more complicated. So you start getting in a bigger and bigger roles. You and Ted meet, you get married. Cooper is born, doing a little math here. Is he born?

00;02;56;09 - 00;02;58;00
Paul Sullivan
What, 2000?

00;02;58;02 - 00;02;59;04
Alison Graham
2012.

00;02;59;07 - 00;03;23;09
Paul Sullivan
2012, 2012. He's born in 2012. And then 2014, when he's two, you get this, this big job talk about, you know, start off the shift between, being, an executive, on the fast track to to being a working mom, to be an executive who has to juggle, all kinds of different things before we go into, you know, the part about Ted being being the late dad.

00;03;23;09 - 00;03;26;13
Paul Sullivan
What was that like, that transition? First of all.

00;03;26;15 - 00;03;47;18
Alison Graham
You know what it was being a mom was it was something that was really, really important to me. I was, definitely what you would refer to as a late bloomer. I was 40 when I got married and 40 when I have my son. And so I had a lot of years of being single and footloose and fancy free in a city like New York.

00;03;47;18 - 00;04;16;14
Alison Graham
And I traveled a lot, and I worked a lot. And when I met Ted, I was one of the first things I told him was that I was interested in, you know, being a mom. And, luckily, he said that he thought that was a great idea. And so the transition from always looking out for oneself to to the selflessness that comes with being a parent, was it was it was what you would expect.

00;04;16;14 - 00;04;22;19
Alison Graham
Right? Like, it was really, really fun. But really, really different. Yeah. It was everything.

00;04;22;21 - 00;04;36;05
Paul Sullivan
We have these conversations about my wife and I, but, you know, all the different guys who are part of the company dads where you really just don't know. You think you know, and you, you have friends who've told you, and maybe you've gone to your friend's house and they've had kids, you know, like, I got this. I mean, that guy's an idiot.

00;04;36;05 - 00;04;54;24
Paul Sullivan
If he can figure this out, I can figure this out. But of course, the reality is, is so much, you know, different because you know, if you're you're single or if you're married without kids, if you with the partner, you know, the kid is, is is the sort of dealt in all of those equations and suddenly you don't, you know, own your own time anymore.

00;04;54;24 - 00;05;12;06
Paul Sullivan
So talk about, you know, the before. Yeah. Things really take off to talk about those first couple of years, with Cooper and how the company that you're working for then how did you how did they treat you is is going from a, you know, fallout executive to, to working mom. And often we talk about this as company dads.

00;05;12;06 - 00;05;25;18
Paul Sullivan
There's this this this stigma. Even though so many people are working parents in the workforce, what was that transition like for for you to have to sort of balance, you know, corporate needs and in addition to your own, you know, career and personal aspirations.

00;05;25;20 - 00;05;47;12
Alison Graham
Yeah, it's a terrific question, Paul. I think I was a little shocked in 2014. I had, a female superior, tell me that I was not being considered for a promotion at that time. This is before the the promotion did come along, for a different role. And when I said to I look, you know, I feel like I've put the work in.

00;05;47;15 - 00;05;59;02
Alison Graham
The results speak for themselves, you know, advocating for myself. She said, well, you know what? It's not our fault that you wanted to go and have a baby. And I remember thinking, oh, whoa, you know, said that.

00;05;59;02 - 00;06;06;12
Paul Sullivan
You said that just came out of your mouth. It wasn't that you were thinking it. That's bad enough, but literally it comes out of your mouth.

00;06;06;14 - 00;06;33;18
Alison Graham
Yeah. And this senior gal at a big, big, publicly traded tech firm with her own kids that said that to me and I am I am the kind of person you're probably similar. If someone tells me no, then my resolve just gets really, really strong. And so I didn't deliberately go on a different path. But, you know, the universe allowed me to, to kind of pursue something different at the same company.

00;06;33;20 - 00;06;42;04
Alison Graham
And then, you know, the The Ascension was was pretty, pretty quick after that. And I was exposed to that, to be away from that part of the business.

00;06;42;07 - 00;07;01;12
Paul Sullivan
You my wife has been, very successful in financial services. And when our, we have three kids now, but we had two and therefore. And one, she decided to start her own firm and she went to her then, you know, partner, she'd gone from a giant firm to more of a boutique and, and told him, I'm going to, you know, launch my own firm.

00;07;01;14 - 00;07;24;13
Paul Sullivan
Don't worry. Orderly fashion, you know, 3 or 4 month clients first and his first response before he did even worse stuff. His first response was, I thought I had at least one more kid in you before you went out on your own. Okay. What? Which is, like, egregious. And you can't even believe that this, you know, happened in this is 2013 when he said that.

00;07;24;13 - 00;07;41;22
Paul Sullivan
So this is not 1953. This is 2013. He says this. And then, of course, he does all kinds of crappy stuff to sort of edgier out quicker. But it was it that that shock and, you know, for you, you know, this is your experience is not a lived experience I could ever have as a, as a working mom and senior female executive.

00;07;41;22 - 00;08;02;00
Paul Sullivan
But what was it like for you to have somebody who would, on paper, seem like an ally, an executive who is farther up the ladder than you were, who had her own family, who had, children who presumably weren't incarcerated because she was the worst person in the entire world. What was it like to hear that from her?

00;08;02;00 - 00;08;09;14
Paul Sullivan
We hear a lot about guys being completely uncensored, but what was it like to hear that from from a woman who who was your your manager?

00;08;09;16 - 00;08;33;21
Alison Graham
Yeah. And I, I don't want to. It was shocking and more than anything, disappointing. Because we're in a pretty male setting already. And so I kind of the way I came up with other females was that we're here to kind of, you know, support one another, right? Like that was a really big part of the of the kind of narrative.

00;08;33;24 - 00;08;46;25
Alison Graham
And to have someone who, you know, that I should want to aspire to be like, to have, kind of, you know, you know, treat me that way. It was pretty disappointing. Yeah.

00;08;46;27 - 00;09;07;27
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. All right. But let's switch to the puzzle. Switch to the positive. Move forward. You switch to a different division. And things, things take off. You know, Cooper, is to, I remember to, you know, five is my favorite. Eight. Five is, like, maximum cuteness, but two still pretty good. But, you know, you you have to make this move.

00;09;07;27 - 00;09;20;27
Paul Sullivan
You have to make this choice, you know, how do you how does it come about? You know, I want to get into the five things that that you learn. But how does it come about when you and Ted are talking about this? How do you make the decision that you're going to find a way to, to to make this work?

00;09;20;27 - 00;09;24;20
Paul Sullivan
And he's going to be, you know, supportive of you?

00;09;24;22 - 00;09;56;23
Alison Graham
So I will say before I respond to that, I will say how fortunate I felt back then and still feel and I'll tell you why I say that. My my husband's older than me, so he was born. He's Canadian, he was born in 1955, and grew up in a really traditional household. His father worked for General Electric for 40 years, and his mom stayed home and raised three sons, my husband being one of them.

00;09;56;25 - 00;10;18;12
Alison Graham
And then, you know, my husband married his first wife right out of university, and she stayed home and raised the kids while he became an executive at IBM. He lived a really traditional in a really traditional setting before we were husband and wife. And so when I approached him about the role, I said, look, it's a global role.

00;10;18;15 - 00;10;40;27
Alison Graham
I'm going to be white sometimes weeks at a time. And as long as two years old, he was like, you know what? You need to go for this. Like, you've you've earned it. You've worked hard. You need to go for it. And I mean, just flat, right? Like, because without that support at home, like, you, you might be able to fake it till you make it kind of thing, but it it falls apart.

00;10;40;27 - 00;10;58;27
Alison Graham
Something something falls away. I think if the support is not there at home and I was back then, and I'm still just in awe of like how adaptable and amazing my husband's been over this journey. It's been incredible.

00;10;59;00 - 00;11;18;12
Paul Sullivan
So yeah, so he said go for it. But, you know, my wife and I talk a lot about this. You know, we we have three kids and and she often feels, you know, guilty for doing, certain things. And I remind her that, you know, I was raised in a traditional Irish Catholic family where guilt is part of your inheritance.

00;11;18;12 - 00;11;38;01
Paul Sullivan
And one lent, you know, lent you, gives you, gives stuff up everything to one land. I gave up guilt. It was better than giving up chocolate. Literally. I stuck to it like you wouldn't believe. Haven't felt guilty a day since. But when you think about, you know you've had the time to reflect, you know, ten years back from that, you know, sort of rocket ship, right?

00;11;38;03 - 00;11;55;15
Paul Sullivan
Talk about the five things that, that, that you learned. And I think these five things are going to be instructive to other working moms, but but hopefully also instructive to other men who take on that, that, that lead that role. What what were the five things that you learned when you took that big job? Yeah, absolutely.

00;11;55;18 - 00;12;14;20
Alison Graham
I think for me, because taking on this big job, I had people in all sorts of countries that were now answering to me and so I kind of puffed out my chest, you know, you know, in a sense. Right? I was like, wow, I'm I guess I'm a bit of a big deal. And people were.

00;12;14;20 - 00;12;15;09
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;12;15;11 - 00;12;38;07
Alison Graham
But you know, I had an assistant and people organizing meetings for me on the other side of the world, and I was traveling a but then I had to remember to kind of, collect my humility and stay humble. Right when coming home, because home is, is where the real stuff is happening. And there's there's no hierarchy in our house.

00;12;38;09 - 00;13;02;29
Alison Graham
Right? Like we're all in it together with, you know, love is is the is the key at home. And you can't bring that kind of like, attitude of like, well, everyone needs to take care of me. You can't bring that home because it's not it's not going to work out. Right. So staying humble and always checking in with my husband became a really important part of our kind of day to day.

00;13;03;02 - 00;13;05;14
Paul Sullivan
Right in it. In what sense? What do you mean by checking?

00;13;05;15 - 00;13;22;29
Alison Graham
Like checking in? You know, I'm in Colorado for this conference. Do you mind if I stay an extra day or, you know, do you mind if I don't take the redeye? So I'll get home tomorrow afternoon? I know I said I'll be home Thursday, but is it okay if I come home Friday? That's a that's a really small example.

00;13;23;02 - 00;13;45;15
Alison Graham
Yeah. But then on a on a more macro level, you know, it looks like the company is going to want me to take on some more activities that will entail night time events, you know, extended work hours, bigger contracts, bigger customer meetings. Are you okay that I'm still doing this and make sure that there was just this kind of like, okay, we're in agreement.

00;13;45;18 - 00;13;47;19
Alison Graham
It was important. Yeah.

00;13;47;21 - 00;13;58;27
Paul Sullivan
And what about what Cooper did? Did you have your assistant, like, sending him memos like Cooper? I came home last week. I noticed the blocks weren't organized properly. Can you get on us? Well, we'll see you in the ten meeting later this week.

00;13;59;00 - 00;14;18;25
Alison Graham
But not quite. But you touched on a point pull that became in the middle of all of this became a really big deal for me, which was that this kind of mom guilt like and I it was sometimes a little paralyzing, if I'm going to be honest. If I were away for like, more than a night or two.

00;14;18;28 - 00;14;39;24
Alison Graham
In the beginning, I was really stuck. And then it became five nights and ten nights and 15 nights and I had to I had to really block out a lot of the noise. Because, you know, people can be unkind even if they don't mean to be. Right. So I would run into other mothers at, you know, at a playdate or a daycare.

00;14;39;26 - 00;14;40;29
Alison Graham
Oh, you're.

00;14;41;00 - 00;14;45;06
Paul Sullivan
It's so good to see you, Allison. Glad you glad you could make it today.

00;14;45;08 - 00;15;04;09
Alison Graham
Yeah. A lot of that. And you know what? As women or like as people, we can drive ourselves crazy with that, right? We can have 15 nice comments made in one day. But that last one, oh, you're in the country this week can really say said you all. Yeah. So I had to cut out a lot of that noise.

00;15;04;12 - 00;15;19;25
Paul Sullivan
But when you would talk to Ted and he would say, okay, yeah that's cool. You know, you take the different flight, whatever. And, you know, Cooper and I are going to go, do you know, actually I did he have, you know, did he struggle at all like getting access to the those groups where he could, you know, take Cooper places?

00;15;19;25 - 00;15;20;23
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;15;20;25 - 00;15;44;26
Alison Graham
He did, he did. You know, we had, goes without saying. We had a, Cooper's nanny when we were, when he was growing up. This was in Manhattan. She was the fourth member of our family, without question, you know? So my husband and I are both not from America. We didn't have, like, a cousin down the street or an aunt around the corner, that we could call at a moment's notice.

00;15;44;26 - 00;16;09;05
Alison Graham
So, Michelle, Cooper's nanny really was the glue for those early years. Like two, three, 4 or 5 years of age. And so she often, had what she had all of the access to a lot of the, you know, a lot of the female professionals that I know, the nannies know one another. Right? These are all Upper East Side nannies.

00;16;09;05 - 00;16;17;22
Alison Graham
They know one another. They go to the park together, and so I. There's not enough. I can say so like how much she helped around the house.

00;16;17;25 - 00;16;38;02
Paul Sullivan
Your second point in the five is that, you know, time matters. But what you really taught was her, you know, kind of drilled down to that. You were you tried really hard. You're able to sort of turn off, you know, international work, Allison versus, you know, at home mom, mom, wife person. Allison. How did how did you do that?

00;16;38;02 - 00;16;59;06
Paul Sullivan
I mean, that's a struggle we so many of us have. And in, you know, work bleeds into home, particularly work in the tech industry. We have all kinds of access to technology to ostensibly make your your life easier. But it just really allows, you know, everything to bleed together. How did you, you know, create that distinction between, you know, when you're away and when you were home?

00;16;59;06 - 00;17;01;17
Paul Sullivan
And how did you protect the boundaries around it?

00;17;01;19 - 00;17;21;28
Alison Graham
Yeah. Terrific question. So earlier in the podcast, you talked about, you know, that shift from being not a mom to being a mom, and you're doing so much right as a busy working person in New York City. And then you're like, wow, I just had a baby to that, right? I have a baby toddler child to that.

00;17;22;00 - 00;17;48;12
Alison Graham
And so similar thing when I was traveling, you think to yourself, I, literally can't squeeze any more into a day here, but that, I think, forces one to to kind of filter out what's not important anymore. Right? So it's not important for me to kind of binge watch a Netflix show on TV. It's it is important for my son and I to have ice cream for dinner because I haven't seen him all week.

00;17;48;15 - 00;18;11;11
Alison Graham
Right. And make something fun of it. Or it is important if there's a little bit of daylight outside to go back to the park and, you know, watch the dogs or watch the birds in the park, like that's important stuff and time you can't get back. And so I, I felt like I was a more engaged mom when I was home versus just being there all the time.

00;18;11;14 - 00;18;21;07
Alison Graham
I and I, I think it was great for it, for our relationship both as a, as a mom, but as a wife as well.

00;18;21;09 - 00;18;36;18
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You know, one of the things I've talked, often about is to treat your family as if it's, you know, as important or equally important to any meeting you have in the day. So, so just as if you were having a meeting that you've been trying to schedule for months, you would not hang up on that person.

00;18;36;18 - 00;18;54;23
Paul Sullivan
If somebody else called, you would not say, oh, wait, hang on, I gotta take this. I think we should sort of, sort of guard that time with their family and say like, okay, this is this is my meeting. And I wanted to make it too corporate, but I am spending the next, you know, 90 minutes with my, my child or children, and that's sacrosanct.

00;18;54;26 - 00;19;13;16
Paul Sullivan
Did you, you know, you talked also about, you know, the in the list of five, you know, being able to to let things go. And, you know, you missed some of the first and I'll be honest with you. Like, that's, you know, hard for me like my wife and I, I think it's joking. But, you know, we'll go away for something.

00;19;13;16 - 00;19;39;27
Paul Sullivan
We'll have it planned, you know, months in advance. And then, you know, just as we're about to go, they'll be like, the recital will get scaled last minute or the the, the champion play. And you're like, why can't these stupid people schedule this stuff like months in advance, like every working parent does in the world? Like, why do you have to wait to a week before, and I struggle with that, a lot.

00;19;39;27 - 00;19;52;25
Paul Sullivan
I, we were away from my birthday, weeks ago, and I, we missed something minor. Not not of that magnitude, but about the. How did you learn to to, you know, let go some of those things that that you miss because you were in, you know, Singapore where we were.

00;19;52;27 - 00;20;19;14
Alison Graham
Yeah. You know what? So back to the kind of guilt, you know, part of the equation that, I talk about it now and say you've got to let it go. I think for your own wellbeing and the well-being of your family, you have to be able to let some things go. You know, I was I feel fortunate I didn't have to miss a ton of Cooper's stuff, but I missed some stuff.

00;20;19;17 - 00;20;27;18
Alison Graham
Right. And, you know, I wasn't there the first time. Like, he fell on the playground and required stitches, right? Like.

00;20;27;20 - 00;20;34;22
Paul Sullivan
That's not such a bad one to mess. I mean, honestly, in, like, the scheme of things.

00;20;34;24 - 00;21;12;09
Alison Graham
And so I tried to make up, which we tried, and I was for a few years there became very much, around logistics, like almost 50% of our conversations were around calendars and logistics, like, without a doubt. And so we we tried our very best to be at everything. But I think if I'm, you know, whoever's listening to this, if it's mums or dads, you know, want being present and being happy when you're with your child is worth much more than being stressed out and half on a phone call while they're in the school play, like all day long.

00;21;12;11 - 00;21;29;18
Alison Graham
You know, I see some of the mums and dads having to, like, leave the room, be on the phone, and I, I feel for them because I understand where they're at. But that can be potentially more stressful than just having to bow out all together.

00;21;29;21 - 00;21;45;27
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I mean, I am sort of, you know, 13.5 years into this movie called Parenthood and, you know, the worst times have been when I tried to do two incompatible things, which is to parent and to work. And if you work and you only function, that goes fine. And if you parent, you totally focus on that goes fine.

00;21;46;00 - 00;22;08;22
Paul Sullivan
But when you try to blend the two, you just it, it it doesn't work. And that kind of day, you know, tells into your, your fourth point of sort of, you know, gratitude and talk about, you know, what what does that word mean to you as, as a working mom? What did it mean to you, you know, as an executive traveling all around to talk about gratitude?

00;22;08;24 - 00;22;36;21
Alison Graham
Yeah. This one's a really big one for me. I it's it's important. It was important. It's still important for me to let my husband know how grateful I am for his support. He is, without a doubt, my like the bedrock. Like he's the foundation of every success I have. He's. He's right there with me, without my husband's support and love and, you know, champion like him being a champion for me.

00;22;36;23 - 00;23;01;09
Alison Graham
Like, there's no way I could I could, you know, pursue the opportunities that I have. There's no way. And so being grateful for our good health, our good fortune, you know, our relationship out. You know, a healthy son is. It means the world to both of us. And I think that it's it's really easy just to be bummed out a lot.

00;23;01;11 - 00;23;20;28
Alison Graham
Right? When when you've got too much to do. It's easy. Right? You can. Oh, my God, my flight's delayed. You know, I can't get home tonight. Oh, my boss has been on and off like, it's easy to be bummed out, but I. I used to tell my son this when I was a little kid. I used to say, you know what?

00;23;21;00 - 00;23;26;28
Alison Graham
Mommy needs to be grateful here. Because mommy has a choice. Like some women don't have choice.

00;23;26;28 - 00;23;27;16
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;23;27;18 - 00;23;47;20
Alison Graham
To to pursue these things or some men or women don't have a choice to pursue these these, like, aspirational goals. And I have the choice to do it. And I'm taking it. And you know what? I think it's been great for him to see his mom go and kick kick some butt. I think it's great.

00;23;47;22 - 00;24;09;27
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. And you talk about that in the fifth point of sort of, you know, that your why your why for, for for doing this and knowing that they're, behind you and instead of, you know, asking you to sort reiterate that. But what I would love to do, this last question is talk to you about, you know, for other, you know, women who are listening to this, for other men who are listening to this, when you think of you, you had the support of Ted.

00;24;09;27 - 00;24;37;18
Paul Sullivan
You had the support of Cooper. When you reflect on this, and be as honest as you're comfortable being. But what did Ted do really? Well that allowed you to fulfill your own potential? And what we're said is the honesty part. You you obviously say all the good things about them, but the other part is like, what are some of the things that were points of friction that it took, you know, more than one or 2 or 3 times to, to, to sort out as he grew into his role as, as a lead that.

00;24;37;21 - 00;25;08;18
Alison Graham
Yeah, that's a, that's a that's a fantastic question. So look, this is, this is a topic that's bigger than, than both of us, right? I think knowing that there are men out there that are willing to because socially, like my husband was an executive for one of the biggest tech firms in the world, who was very actively taking a step back to help his wife at home.

00;25;08;20 - 00;25;41;06
Alison Graham
The, the the courage and the, the fortitude to be able to stick with that, like I see it. Right? And, not every family has the opportunity to to do that. If it wasn't the first year or so, it was not a piece of cake. Right? It's it's challenging. Right. And it's challenging when you got your wife on the other end of the line, sometimes crying because she feels guilty.

00;25;41;09 - 00;26;09;20
Alison Graham
And, you know, there's he's he's still working. He hasn't stopped working. And he still has deadlines and goals to meet. But you really asking that your partner, to kind of take a step back and you kind of shine, and I think. It's, I think if if I were to ask Ted now, he'd say, oh, of course I made the right choice, but I'm not sure.

00;26;09;20 - 00;26;14;12
Alison Graham
It was instinctive to begin with it. It was a bit of heavy lifting to begin it. Yeah.

00;26;14;13 - 00;26;37;08
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, sure. And, you know, with that, you know, what what tips would you give to, you know, other, you know, working moms or other executives who would like to have their husband become the the lead dad and support them in this and understand that, yeah, they do have to take a step out of the spotlight, but ultimately it's good for the whole family.

00;26;37;08 - 00;26;40;08
Paul Sullivan
What are a couple of tips that that that come to mind?

00;26;40;10 - 00;26;59;08
Alison Graham
Yeah. You know what I think? What this if I, if I had a tip, it would be, you know, to be kind and and be gentle, right. Because there shouldn't be an assumption that like, oh, I let you have the spotlight for the last 20 years, you should automatically give it to me. I don't think that that that's a good way to come at it.

00;26;59;08 - 00;27;33;22
Alison Graham
And no one would respond well to that. Right. I think what was a great lesson for me, Paul, and why I have so much admiration for what you're doing with Company of Dads, is that I was well into my career before I even thought about the fact that, caregivers in family situations were not all women. And I know that sounds really it sounds a little bit like when I say it out loud, but I was well into my 40s before someone kind of snapped back at me and said, you know, not okay, give us women, right?

00;27;33;23 - 00;27;56;16
Alison Graham
Like, you know that men give up their careers too. If they've got a sick parent or a, you know, a disabled family member or and I was like, wow, I and I did I felt a little bit ignorant in that moment. And so maybe for the gals out there just to have that awareness. Right. I know there's a lot of advocacy for women in the workplace, and I'm really glad that there is.

00;27;56;18 - 00;28;10;25
Alison Graham
But I think it's important to be kind and to make room for men to advocate for other men to to step up in, in the, you know, caregiving roles. I think it's really important.

00;28;10;28 - 00;28;16;20
Paul Sullivan
Allison Graham, thank you so much for being my guest today on the Company Dads podcast. I thoroughly enjoy talking to.

00;28;16;22 - 00;28;19;17
Alison Graham
Me, so thank you, Paul. Appreciate it.

00;28;19;19 - 00;28;37;14
Paul Sullivan
Hey, thanks for listening to Company of Dads podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. But I'm here to tell you it is just one of the many offerings we have at the Company of Dads. We've got another podcast. We have a weekly newsletter, we have various features. We have events that we put on both online and in person.

00;28;37;17 - 00;28;58;17
Paul Sullivan
If you want to know about all of those, the best place to learn about them is to go to the company of dads.com backslash the dad. There's a company of dads.com backslash the dad what are you get if you do that. That's how you sign up for our weekly newsletter the dad which is a one stop shop for all things the dad.

00;28;58;20 - 00;29;00;03
Paul Sullivan
Thank you again for listening.