EP67: How To Be a Conscious Dad in 4 Steps

Interview with Jeff Siegel / Health and Wellness Coach for Men

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Being a father is loaded with expectations - many stemming from how society pushes men into a certain way of being a father. Jeff Siegel, a health and wellness coach with Harvard credentials and mindfullness training, is pushing back against those assumptions. He wants men to let go of heroic images of fatherhood and be the best dad they can be. Learn his 4 ways men can become conscious dads.

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Transcript

00;00;04;01 - 00;00;25;25
Paul Sullivan
You. Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being a dad in a world where men who are the go to parent aren't always accepted at work, among their friends, or in the community for what they're doing. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. Our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the Company of Dads.

00;00;25;25 - 00;00;48;17
Paul Sullivan
We have various features, including our popular The Dad of the week. We have our community both online and in person, but the one stop shop for all of this is our newsletter The Dad. So sign up today at the company of dads backslash “The dad”. That's the company dads.com backslash the dad today. My guest is Jeff Siegel, a health and wellness coach.

00;00;48;20 - 00;01;11;19
Paul Sullivan
He's on a mission to empower people to take better care of themselves and build a real relationship with their body. He holds a master's in mind and brain education from Harvard University, as well as a master's in Buddhist studies from Hong Kong University. He runs a private coaching practice for men who feel off their game and are struggling to find balance and creating healthy habits.

00;01;11;20 - 00;01;39;13
Paul Sullivan
Jeff also teaches mindfulness at Harvard and trains leaders to embody holistic well-being. Originally from Philadelphia, he now lives in Boston. Somehow bridging, said, two of the craziest sports towns in America. He's a new dad. And by new, I mean brand new. Like ten week old son, Asher. And his wife, Claire, works as an HR director for a company in Boston.

00;01;39;14 - 00;01;43;14
Paul Sullivan
Jeff, welcome to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;43;16 - 00;01;53;14
Jeff Siegel
Oh, thank you so much for having me here. I'm really, really grateful for all the work that you're doing and excited to get to share. You know, something that I hope is it's helpful for everybody listening.

00;01;53;16 - 00;02;11;14
Paul Sullivan
You know, I, I thank you. I, I lived in New York before I lived in Connecticut. And we had a little sojourn in Boston where we lived in Boston for two years. We you promised me that at some point during our conversation, you will say you'll start the answer. When I was at Harvard. Yeah.

00;02;11;16 - 00;02;24;15
Jeff Siegel
I will see if I can, you know, casually slip that in some. You know, it's it's a card that I always don't feel comfortable playing because there is a lot of privilege and there is a lot of, you know, expectations around this job.

00;02;24;17 - 00;02;36;10
Paul Sullivan
You know, when we lived, a couple years ago in Beacon Hill, I remember meeting this guy in his 80s, and he literally said at one point, well, I remind you, when I was at Harvard, I'm like, you haven't been in Harvard in like 60 years. Like, I don't even know.

00;02;36;10 - 00;02;37;12
Jeff Siegel
Like, I don't remember that.

00;02;37;12 - 00;02;39;18
Paul Sullivan
Well, what I was doing in college.

00;02;39;20 - 00;02;57;28
Jeff Siegel
Paul, when I, when I was at Harvard this morning because I was there this morning teaching, actually, you know, it was great. The spring flowers were popping the campus had a certain energy to it. This semester is actually coming to a close pretty soon. You know, and the anxiety, I think, for students of, like, what's next?

00;02;58;01 - 00;03;00;24
Jeff Siegel
This kind of, you know, starting to become a little more palpable. So.

00;03;01;02 - 00;03;07;09
Paul Sullivan
But even and even the flowers at Harvard are high achieving flowers.

00;03;07;11 - 00;03;07;18
Jeff Siegel
Not.

00;03;07;18 - 00;03;09;11
Paul Sullivan
A wilted bud there.

00;03;09;13 - 00;03;18;15
Jeff Siegel
Yeah. Yeah, there's there's an underbelly of insecurity, self-doubt and all sorts of other things that that flag, those that even the most beautiful flowers.

00;03;18;18 - 00;03;41;06
Paul Sullivan
If that doesn't describe, fatherhood right there, that underbelly of insecurity and self-doubt. I don't know what what does. And, you know, one of the things that brought us together, as I read a piece that you wrote recently in Psychology Today that, I really liked, and it it talks about a lot of things. We're really going to go through many of them, in our time together.

00;03;41;08 - 00;03;54;21
Paul Sullivan
But one thing that really struck out is your advocacy for for men to be what you call a conscious dad. So let's just kick it. What does it mean? What does it mean to be a conscious dad?

00;03;54;24 - 00;04;28;25
Jeff Siegel
Yeah. You know, I thought about this term a lot, you know, and then you've been using the word kind of, you know, lead, dad. You know, I know I've, you know, use the term conscious dad or, you know, kind of a mindful manhood or what does it even mean to be sort of like a modern father? And for me, it was really trying to figure out how do I reconcile these tensions between sort of these more traditional, you know, forms of masculinity that maybe older generations, you know, embody, maybe even, you know, our own parents?

00;04;28;27 - 00;04;48;00
Jeff Siegel
And then more of the kind of progressive, you know, in terms of things that are changing in society around gender norms, job roles around childcare and just, you know, and then coming back to my own heart of like, how do I want to show up for my child? And what kind of role do I want to play, in his life and and how can I role model that?

00;04;48;01 - 00;05;01;15
Jeff Siegel
So for me, the unconscious, that was really just trying to be conscious of all of these forces and factors at play, both systemically, culturally and personally. And try to, you know, hold them skillfully, which, which is not an easy thing to do.

00;05;01;17 - 00;05;26;26
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. It's never easy to be be a dad that lots of, as you say, you know, systemic, radical societal forces. That, that expect men to behave a certain way as dads. But, you know, you're very fortunate. You're at the very beginning of your your journey as a dad. If you're talking to a dad who's, you know, ten, 15, maybe, maybe 20, 25 years into it and they want to be a more conscious dad.

00;05;26;29 - 00;05;32;07
Paul Sullivan
What advice do do you have for them? How do they go about doing it?

00;05;32;10 - 00;05;55;16
Jeff Siegel
Yeah. Well, I you know, I think everything begins with an a dose of honesty, honest self-awareness, which, you know, you can develop on your own, which is really helpful to have other people reflect back to you. But it's, you know, taking a look at yourself and saying, you know, are you living up to your own ideals, values, around what it means to be a father?

00;05;55;18 - 00;06;14;11
Jeff Siegel
You know? And a lot of times, you know, we inherit all of these things, right? We're constantly absorbing all of these messages from our culture about what does it mean to be a dad? What does it mean to be a good dad? And so just, you know, asking, well, like, you know, is this actually my value or is this just something that was handed to me?

00;06;14;13 - 00;06;31;21
Jeff Siegel
Does this fit in my context in my family, or am I just acting out this role because this is the thing that I see being acted out over and over and over again everywhere else I look. And so that's when we start to become more and more conscious of ourselves and our own patterns. And we can, you know, we begin to work internally.

00;06;31;21 - 00;06;34;20
Jeff Siegel
It's the inner work that turns into the the outer work.

00;06;34;23 - 00;07;00;20
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, but there's a lot of noise out there. You know, we've done some work at the company dads with with Aquaman. Aquaman, which is this amazing global organization that's trying to redefine, you know, masculinity. And they've worked with the Geena Davis Institute, which does an awful lot about how people get presented. In television and film. They did a report together that talked about, you know, the representation of fathers on TV.

00;07;00;22 - 00;07;19;21
Paul Sullivan
And it's horrible. You have the, you have the angry dad, you have the clueless dad, the bumbling dad. You don't really have a sort of fully fleshed out form that dads are either scary or they're they're played for laughs. And that's what we're getting. As you said, you inherit. We all inherit a lot of things, good and bad, from our own fathers or grandfathers.

00;07;19;23 - 00;07;40;02
Paul Sullivan
How do you help people cut through those those messages, the stereotypes that may not be, the best ones for them if they want to be a conscious dad. How do you help them cut through that to be, you know, not a perfect dad, but just a really engaged, quality that a conscious dad, as you would say.

00;07;40;04 - 00;08;08;17
Jeff Siegel
Yeah. I mean, to your point, there is a lot of sort of one note depictions of what it means to be a father. Right. And I see all of these in the ways in which these, these roles and scripts, right, are limiting who we can be. Right. As, as fathers, as men, as, as, as human beings. And my goal is to try to deconstruct that, to allow people to be more of whatever they choose to be and more of what's most aligned with what feels right for them inside.

00;08;08;19 - 00;08;33;04
Jeff Siegel
And so your question of like, well, you know, how do you how do you help that? You know, I think, and this, you know, of course, I'm very biased towards sort of mindful and contemplative bent, but I think slowing down and actually listening to your heart, being able to begin to calm down some of that noise again, it's like there's some we're being bombarded by so many media messages and emails and technology.

00;08;33;04 - 00;08;55;05
Jeff Siegel
It's like we need to begin to kind of create enough space to let that settle, so we can actually begin to listen to the wisdom that's inside of ourselves. I do believe that if you slow down and you can learn how to listen, you can reconnect as your body. If you can learn how to pay attention to some of those things, then you can begin to pick up on these little signals of like, oh, this thing that I've been doing, like, actually doesn't feel right.

00;08;55;12 - 00;09;18;25
Jeff Siegel
You know, sometimes it's really subtle, sometimes it's really obvious. It's like, this is causing me a lot of stress. It's causing a lot of frustration. Maybe this is like, you know, completely destroying my relationship. Sometimes it's really obvious what's not working. Other times it's not so obvious, or you let it get to a point where, like, things like start to really blow up, you know, ideally you want to try to get there ahead of time, but it's like if you can pay attention, you can take responsibility for the things that aren't working.

00;09;19;00 - 00;09;21;08
Jeff Siegel
You can begin to adjust them.

00;09;21;11 - 00;09;41;19
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You know, it's interesting, you know, when I was in graduate school, not at Harvard, when I was in grad school, at the University Chicago. So at the end and, I remember early on I would meet these people, and they were I could see it like, they were so amped up, and they would keep making the same mistake again and again.

00;09;41;19 - 00;09;56;29
Paul Sullivan
And I, and I kind of equated to it's like walking naked into a bush. If you happen to do that, once is wildly painful. I've never done it personally. Don't worry. But but, you know, logically, you wouldn't do it again. But metaphorically, they kept doing this. They kept walking naked into the bush again and again and again.

00;09;56;29 - 00;10;14;14
Paul Sullivan
And, you know, as a dad, one of the things I've tried to do is only make a mistake once not to keep repeating it again and again. Have I always succeeded that? Now I just did some days the other day and I was like, okay. It only took me about 30 tries before I figured out that that this wasn't working.

00;10;14;14 - 00;10;40;25
Paul Sullivan
But if people aren't hearing that, that inner voice, if they're not, you know, naturally contemplative, if they didn't grow up in a, in a, in a household where you're contemplating your own actions was something that people did or talked about, how can you help them get to that point where they can become, you know, more of a conscious dad and be, you know, a better, better parent and happier.

00;10;40;28 - 00;10;59;03
Jeff Siegel
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I love this image of somebody walking into a thorn bush over and over, and it's like, we we all do this in different ways. You know, we keep repeating the same mistakes. And this has to do with our with our conditioning, with our upbringing, with our with our fears, with our traumas, the things we've inherited.

00;10;59;04 - 00;11;23;10
Jeff Siegel
You know, it's like we all have that baggage. And, you know, this is work not only around being a dad, but just as you said, being a healthier and happier human being. It goes into this, like, how do we work with these patterns that show up again and again? And I love what you're saying about it's like, well, once I'm aware that I'm making, you know, mistake or I'm doing something that's not, you know, ideal, I'm gonna, you know, promise to to try to do it differently.

00;11;23;10 - 00;11;43;27
Jeff Siegel
Right? So it's like, you know, once you know better, do better. As the saying goes. One thing that I find to be really helpful, is what I would call mirror work, and this is not a practice that I created, but essentially, it's like every morning when you get up, when you are standing in the mirror, you know, washing your face, brushing your teeth, you pause.

00;11;44;00 - 00;11;58;24
Jeff Siegel
I actually look at yourself and you say your name and you say, you know, yeah, you know, I am proud of you for, you know, blah, blah, blah, right? Yes, I am proud of you for, you know, waking up today, getting dressed and going out there. Right. So as you say a couple things I'm proud of you for.

00;11;58;24 - 00;12;24;06
Jeff Siegel
And you say I forgive you for, right? I forgive you for not being a perfect father. Right? I forgive you for, you know, the the stupid things that you said to your partner last night. Right? But then the last thing I think this is what is so important is like death. I commit to you, right? That I'm going to do better, that I'm not going to say those things again, that I'm going to have more awareness, then I'm going to have more ability to show up in the way that I want to.

00;12;24;08 - 00;12;37;26
Jeff Siegel
Right. And so it's like just doing that, actually seeing yourself saying that yourself in the mirror is like just sort of an opportunity to set those intentions right. And this is what I believe. It's like you have your own best wisdom, but we also don't give ourselves the opportunity to actually share it.

00;12;37;28 - 00;12;56;15
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I can see how it would work. I mean, what are some of the roadblocks? What are some of the roadblocks that get away in the way of men who want to become cut? I mean, no, no, no man wants to be a shitty father, you know? So what are some of the roadblocks that get in the way of the best intentioned, you know?

00;12;56;19 - 00;12;58;23
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. From becoming a conscious dad.

00;12;58;26 - 00;13;25;13
Jeff Siegel
You know, I mean, there's there's a bunch. You know, actually, I wrote a different article on Psychology Today about, what I call, you know, some of the classic man box mindsets that I think keep guys, you know, and really trapped and feeling stuck, when it comes to taking care of themselves. But one thing that I point to in the article is this idea of kind of heroic individualism that is really, you know, part of the American cultural narrative.

00;13;25;13 - 00;13;49;18
Jeff Siegel
But I think it's easy for dads, especially to get caught up in this sort of like I'm going to be, you know, if I want to be a good dad, then I'm going to be the superhero dad, right? You know, I'm going to grow some wings and I'm going to fly, and I'm going to be able to, you know, change diapers and and clean the house and cook the dinner and then take care of my partner and take care of my kid and still make all the money I need to make and have all the friends I need to have.

00;13;49;21 - 00;14;15;03
Jeff Siegel
Right. And it's like, well, hold on a second. Like, you know, is that actually possible? Are you setting yourself up for failure? And are you actually disempowering your partner right, from having some agency in, you know, because this sort of sets up like, oh, you're the hero, then they must be the victim, you know? And then I think this creates these, sort of these this, not the it's not the right sort of mindset that you want to have.

00;14;15;05 - 00;14;31;00
Jeff Siegel
Right? So you can lead to new dads feeling really burnt out and overextended, taking on too much, trying to be this hero, trying to do everything on their own. Another really common narrative for men is like, I got this right, I can handle this. I can do this on my own. Yeah. Like, you know, and like, yeah, like, I support, like, you know.

00;14;31;00 - 00;15;03;03
Jeff Siegel
Yes. Like, you know, I support people developing that strength and that autonomy. And we need other like it's more so than ever. A lot of this comes back to having community and support. And this is again, you know, I think the idea of the company of dads is so, so critical, right. To link up with other fathers, that are also, you know, going through this together to talk about it, you know, because it can feel so isolating when you're at home, you know, struggling with your child, you know, you feel you feel like the oh my God, like, you know, how can I handle this all by myself?

00;15;03;05 - 00;15;12;18
Jeff Siegel
And the reality is, for most of human history, like, you know, that's not the way it went. Like we weren't designed to do this alone or designed to do this in the company of others.

00;15;12;20 - 00;15;30;28
Paul Sullivan
You know, and you talk about, you know, the dads not being heroes. I think you said that you shouldn't aspire to be a hero. You should aspire to be a gracious human. Is that is accurate? I remember that right. Yeah. Which is another beautiful phrase you know contrast. Dad got gracious human. But you know, you reference you know the term man bias.

00;15;30;28 - 00;15;59;29
Paul Sullivan
It often gets bandied around for people don't know it. It's, you know, these are the certain things that you are sort of expected to societal expectations as a man. But if we think about how does the concept of, you know, breadwinner, and that link between, you know, money and masculinity and the notion and vast parts of America that if your wife had earned you, which happens today in about half the cases, wives earn as much or more than husbands.

00;16;00;03 - 00;16;21;27
Paul Sullivan
If your wife don't do that, that somehow, emasculating. And then that's a trope that is a hard one to break. How how can we, you know, either, you know, ignore it. One but two, you know, as a society, you know, work toward, you know, changing that, gendered and, you know, fairly offensive.

00;16;22;00 - 00;16;23;09
Jeff Siegel
You know.

00;16;23;11 - 00;16;24;10
Paul Sullivan


00;16;24;13 - 00;16;53;04
Jeff Siegel
Yeah. It's it's a wonderful question. Beginning to, you know, untangle this relationship that we have between, you know, men as breadwinner, men as provider, specifically financial provider. And you know, again, if you look back in history 5000, you know, years ago like because of, you know, women not being in the workplace and all sorts of other things like that, that was kind of what worked.

00;16;53;07 - 00;17;22;19
Jeff Siegel
And now there's so many more opportunities, you know, for full transparency. Yeah. My wife earns much more than I do. And I am I am so happy and grateful and supportive of her going out and having a career that brings her satisfaction and joy. And Lester use different parts of her brain. And, you know, to your points, like, I feel like, you know, how do I integrate that, you know, and so on one hand, I can just sort of ignore, you know, anybody who says, oh, Jack, you know, you're, you know, you're sort of lesser than because you're not the breadwinner.

00;17;22;22 - 00;17;38;02
Jeff Siegel
I think you do need to put up a little bit of a boundary. Right. There's a there's a healthy boundary there of, like, what you're allowing in, you know, and, you know, it's then there is always going to be negativity. There's always going to be haters. There's always gonna be people that don't agree. And that's that's okay.

00;17;38;02 - 00;18;03;15
Jeff Siegel
You know, and I, you know, I, I'm confident enough in myself to be able to, to work with that. I think the, you know, the idea that, you know, there are so many ways to provide and protect, right? Like if the idea of, like, a healthy form of masculinity still engender is a certain amount of, you know, protection and providing like, does finances and working like have to be the only way in which you can you can do that.

00;18;03;15 - 00;18;22;00
Jeff Siegel
And I think this is where we can see, like, you know, if if you get overly attached and this is a trap, again, for men to get overly attached to their job as their like sole source of value or worth in the family, right? It's like, well, I'm doing my job and I'm earning money that I have some value and and everything is okay.

00;18;22;00 - 00;18;49;25
Jeff Siegel
Right. You know, but if I'm not earning a lot of money, well, then I don't know who I am as a person, you know? And again, then I think this is, you know, that our culture or, you know, kind of towns this message into us in all sorts of subtle and implicit ways. And, you know, and again, I want to be clear that, you know, if you decide within the context of your relationship that you know, you as the father being the primary financial provider is what works, then.

00;18;49;25 - 00;19;13;29
Jeff Siegel
Great. Like, I'm not, you know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that set up. But it's it's feeling like that is the only option. Right, is when it becomes an issue. Right. And this is what is being a is that is saying, well, you know what. Actually there's some choice. We have no comes back to agency here for both you and and I'm assuming like if you're in a relationship, you know, if you have a partner like for you and your partner like how does that play out.

00;19;14;01 - 00;19;28;12
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I mean, there are many reasons I started the company of dads, but but one of them is I have three daughters and I want them when they grow up to to live in a world where they can choose what they want to be and if they want to, if they end up, you know, marrying or even getting married.

00;19;28;12 - 00;19;49;05
Paul Sullivan
But if they marry somebody who who's a lead that that's awesome. If they choose to be, you know, the the lead mom, that's awesome too. But I want it to be, a conscious decision for them. I don't want it to be something that is just, you know, they expect it because they're they're, you know, girls who are going to be women who, you know, May 1st day be moms.

00;19;49;08 - 00;20;08;11
Paul Sullivan
You also talked about something. And, you know, we said at the top of this that you're, you know, ten weeks into being, a father of a living being, but, of course, your wife was pregnant for for nine months before that. So you were, you know, sort of a father. And as her partner, one of the things you talked about that I.

00;20;08;11 - 00;20;36;19
Paul Sullivan
It's a term I also found intriguing, for, you know, to really encapsulate a lot and in a mere two words. And that's postpartum disorientation, postpartum disorientation for men. And you talk about, you know, I don't I don't want to say that I want to walk through it, but explain that term, a bit to the listeners before we delve into it a bit more.

00;20;36;22 - 00;21;08;27
Jeff Siegel
Postpartum disorientation is the state of confusion that arises when some of your old familiar roles, you know, who you were, you know, before you became a parent, are kind of dissolving and falling apart. Yet this new role of you as a father, is not yet fully formed. Right? So it's a period of transition, and there's a lot of ambiguity and there's a lot of uncertainty, and compounded by a lot of sleeplessness.

00;21;08;27 - 00;21;26;01
Jeff Siegel
Right. And the other, just like the actual stressors, you know, having a newborn in the household and doing things that you've never done before, right? There's a you know, this is incredible amount of learning on the job. And, you know, and of trying to find the right word for this and disorienting really just sort of seem to capture it.

00;21;26;01 - 00;21;43;00
Jeff Siegel
All right. Because it's like and there's there's something happening and it's happening all the time at every hour of the day and of the night. You know, and it was like, I remember coming home from the hospital with, with our baby boy. And it's like, you know, we been living in this house for years, but yet it it felt it felt new, in a certain way.

00;21;43;00 - 00;22;00;25
Jeff Siegel
And, you know, especially when I was three and and he's crying and you're trying to figure out what to do where it's like, you know, it's like you're in a familiar space, yet you're feeling disoriented in that because you haven't still gotten your bearings. And so I was just trying to label name that, because I think it's a, it's a difficult transition period.

00;22;00;25 - 00;22;21;23
Jeff Siegel
And again, I don't want men to feel alone in that. And, you know, I also don't want to minimize the incredible journey that women go on. But, you know, through the entire pregnancy, the miraculous nature of labor and delivery and everything that they go through, you know, postpartum is is tremendously impactful on them and their bodies in so many ways.

00;22;21;25 - 00;22;31;26
Jeff Siegel
So I'm not at all trying to minimize that, but also just trying to give some voice to the journey that dads go on again, because I think so many dads go on it alone. And that makes it so much harder.

00;22;31;28 - 00;22;53;29
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I'd also say like, you know, I think if you have three of my very close friends from, from high school, of the four of us total, all of us, I was probably I think I was the last to begin to have children. And the one who went, you know, you just don't know, like, as a man, I think you just you don't know what's going to be like to be a dad until you become a dad.

00;22;53;29 - 00;23;12;15
Paul Sullivan
And the natural inclination for men, you know, as we socialize is to, to, you know, kind of rib each other, you know, talk a little nonsense to each other, cause now it's coming back and it's biting me in the ass because one of my best friends, his son, just went off to college, and my youngest went off to kindergarten, so, you know, it's it's payback time.

00;23;12;18 - 00;23;31;28
Paul Sullivan
But that disorientation, particularly when, you know, this isn't even society, just some, you know, well-meaning friends are just coming over, and they don't they don't even understand, you know, what you're going to. I think you talk about, one part grieving. Grieving your your sort of pre pre father, pre child self. What are some of the tips that you can give people.

00;23;31;28 - 00;23;41;01
Paul Sullivan
I 3 or 4 in that, that piece. Some of the tips you give people to help them to help them get through that postpartum disorientation.

00;23;41;04 - 00;23;58;00
Jeff Siegel
Well I just want to back up and kind of comment on one thing you said before, you know, I think you were talking about, you know, yeah, some of your, you know, guy friends sort of like giving you shit, right? You're like kind of trash talking a little bit, right? Like there's this competitiveness, there's this, you know, like, kind of like one upsmanship.

00;23;58;00 - 00;24;23;07
Jeff Siegel
Right. That's. And there's been a lot of studies that, like, this is the way a lot of men communicate, especially in groups of other men, right? Where it's like this, kind of this, this fight for dominance. Right? It's like, oh, I'm going to say the, the thing that gets you better in truth. And, you know, and I think you said that sort of like the natural inclination, but I would be like, that's actually just it's not really the natural inclination that is our that is the socialization effects of the ways in which we teach men from a very, very young age, these little boys.

00;24;23;13 - 00;24;41;07
Jeff Siegel
I think it really begins at such a young age. And we do this unconsciously through all sort of implicit things, to, to like really, you know, begin to fight for power and fight for dominance, you know, and you could make some arguments. There is, you know, testosterone and biological things at play here, which I think are certainly true.

00;24;41;07 - 00;24;51;17
Jeff Siegel
But I think a lot of it is definitely coming back to the culture piece. And so just, you know, that's just one thing, you know, and so then you answer your question, you know.

00;24;51;23 - 00;24;52;05
Paul Sullivan
You.

00;24;52;07 - 00;24;54;12
Jeff Siegel
And if do you want to respond back.

00;24;54;15 - 00;25;32;19
Paul Sullivan
You have to just sort of point out to listeners. Once again, Jeff grew up, in Philadelphia, went to college in Atlanta and now also went to grad school in Boston, lives outside of Boston, three of the most intense, testosterone driven, sports towns in America. So his calm listeners is is, well, well earned. But now you're going to give us the, the the tips here, the ways that men can deal with postpartum disorientation when they have a good friend who, as you said, and I don't this I don't disagree with you who have been socialized to sort of, you know, friendship is this, this needling of each other, this giving each other shit,

00;25;32;19 - 00;25;37;09
Paul Sullivan
as you said. But how do we get through that? How do we get through? Yeah, it's an orientation, you know.

00;25;37;12 - 00;25;55;16
Jeff Siegel
And again, I'm not against competition. I'm not against a little bit of, you know, you know, friendly jabs. As long as, you know, again, is held within a container of, you know, like good friendship. There's a lot of love there. There's a lot of trust there. I think that's really important. You know, the sort of the punch line answer to your thing is, is community.

00;25;55;16 - 00;26;15;29
Jeff Siegel
As I'm saying, it's like, you know, I think having, connections with other people, you know, and whether they are also dads, which is ideal or not, you know, but that are willing to really listen and be there as supports is, is important. Some of the other things that I mentioned, though, is this idea of grieving, which I think is really a difficult thing for a lot of men.

00;26;15;29 - 00;26;39;18
Jeff Siegel
You know, we think of grieving is like this sort of sob fest. It's this highly demonstrative, emotional thing. And, you know, maybe you allow yourself to do it for ten minutes at, you know, someone's funeral. But we don't really think of it in this broader sense of, you know, every time we are, you know, growing into something new, we're typically shedding or letting go of some past part of ourself.

00;26;39;25 - 00;26;52;09
Jeff Siegel
Right. And maybe that's a form of our identity. Maybe that's something we used to do. Maybe we were part of like, you know, sports team that we can't play on anymore for a little bit because we have got a baby. Or maybe, you know, there was a younger part of yourself that always wanted to, you know, stay up real late.

00;26;52;09 - 00;27;14;11
Jeff Siegel
And so, like, we, you know, we we need to let go of these earlier parts of ourselves to make space for this new father figure to emerge. And I think of that as sort of this birthing and dying process. And in that this idea of grieving is really important. It's a way of just coming to terms with, the letting go of what was thanking it, you know, thanking your previous cell.

00;27;14;12 - 00;27;32;10
Jeff Siegel
Hey, thank you for all the things. You know, you got me here. Everything that you have ever done, you said thought has brought me to this moment. So thank you. And you know, you're no longer needed, right? I actually need my energy and my attention now to be directed towards this beautiful little human that I'm helping to take care of.

00;27;32;15 - 00;27;54;19
Jeff Siegel
Right. So I might not have the time to do those things. So the grieving piece is, is important. You know, and then the other piece that I think I just want to highlight is, is the, the kind of the practice. Right, which is sort of obvious, but like with a willingness to fail. All right. And I have like, you know, can think of so many times in the last ten weeks where I am like, wow, like I really messed that up, right?

00;27;54;19 - 00;27;57;07
Jeff Siegel
Like I really screwed that up, you know, short.

00;27;57;07 - 00;28;03;03
Paul Sullivan
Of dropping the baby, you're going to be okay. Jeff Short of dropping the baby, you're fine. The bar is really low and they're ten. You know.

00;28;03;10 - 00;28;21;21
Jeff Siegel
It was like. It was like day six or something. I had to we were putting on it. I was putting on the baby carrier for the very first time. I had them strapped in there and, you know, and I'm like, I'm pulling him out. And I'm like, oh, this thing is great. And he just he starts to just fall for, like, and then he, he is like halfway to the ground.

00;28;21;21 - 00;28;39;28
Jeff Siegel
I somehow miraculously catch him before he hits the ground. The best part is my wife somehow managed to be filming on video, so we had actually that moment captured, like that was. I was very close to my first major fail as a father. And now we can look back on it and laugh on it, of course.

00;28;40;01 - 00;28;54;20
Jeff Siegel
You know, and of course, you know, some, some failures, right, are a little bit more costly and a little bit more consequential, you know, and, you know, keeping your, your child, you know, safe and secure, is essential. But also like, you know, so much of being a good father is learning to be a good partner, right?

00;28;54;20 - 00;29;12;21
Jeff Siegel
So it's like what weighs of my failing my wife, not showing up as the man that I want to be or is the way that I want to be. And a lot of times it goes back to I'm not being conscious, right? I'm running off of habit. Right. And a lot of times, the habits that I used to have no longer fit the situation that I'm in now with the dad.

00;29;12;25 - 00;29;15;20
Jeff Siegel
Right. And so it's like we need to update.

00;29;15;22 - 00;29;36;01
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I love it. Jeff Siegel, thank you so much for being, my guest today in the Company of Dads podcast. I always give the guest, the last word. Any final thoughts? Any final tips to help, the listeners be be more conscious dads or to to just grow into being a dad.

00;29;36;03 - 00;29;54;25
Jeff Siegel
Yeah. You know, the the question that I really like to ask is, you know, you know, how will the dad I want to be do the thing I'm about to do? Perfect. How will the dad I want to be do the thing about to do? And, you know, and this just kind of leads you into thinking what is possible here.

00;29;55;01 - 00;29;59;20
Jeff Siegel
And in that moment, can I can I rise to the occasion and step into that?

00;29;59;22 - 00;30;04;04
Paul Sullivan
Excellent. Thank you again, Jeff. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today.

00;30;04;06 - 00;30;05;29
Jeff Siegel
Thank you Paul.

00;30;06;01 - 00;30;34;22
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the company of that podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do at the Company of Dads possible, Helder Moura, who is our audio producer, Lindsay Decker. And as all of our social media, Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me on many of the things that we do here at The Company of Dads.

00;30;34;22 - 00;30;41;09
Paul Sullivan
It's a great team. And we're we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop.

00;30;41;09 - 00;30;47;23
Unknown
For everything is our newsletter, the dad sign up at the company dads.com backslash the dad.

00;30;48;00 - 00;30;48;28
Paul Sullivan
Thank you again for listening.