EP85: What Working At Summer Camp Taught This Dad

Interview with J.R. Havlan / Emmy Award Winner & First Time Camp Worker

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

J.R. Havlan got an offer he couldn't refuse: come work as the communications director at sleepaway camp. The eight-time Emmy Award-winning writer might seem a tad overqualified for the job but he jumped at the chance: he'd be around his two kids and fully focused on one job - a rarity in a world of disruptions. But he learned some things that he - and any Dad - could use in the school year. Listen now.

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Transcript

00;00;05;21 - 00;00;26;02
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being a dad in a world where men or the go to pack aren't always accepted at work, among their friends or in the community for what they're doing. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. Our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the company of Dads.

00;00;26;04 - 00;00;49;15
Paul Sullivan
We have very features, including the lead dad of the week. We have our community both online and also some in-person events. We have a new resource library for all fathers. The one stop shop for all of this is our newsletter. The dad to sign up at the company dads.com backslash. The dad today. My guest is J.R. Havlan, some of you may remember him from episode 19.

00;00;49;18 - 00;01;10;28
Paul Sullivan
He's an eight time Emmy Award winning writer for The Daily Show, and Jon Stewart was a host. He's a father of two and a husband of one. He's a Manhattan dad with a serious love of golf. We're talking to him today for none of these reasons. We're talking to him because this summer he left his Emmys and golf clubs behind and went to sleepaway camp.

00;01;11;01 - 00;01;30;15
Paul Sullivan
Not as some Will Ferrell like giant camper, but as the director of communications. With a staff of seven. And he's here today as kids head back to school to shed some light on what happens at sleepaway camp when the kids are away and the parents get to play their. Welcome back.

00;01;30;18 - 00;01;34;05
J.R. Havlan
Thank you sir. Thank you for having me.

00;01;34;07 - 00;01;42;24
Paul Sullivan
Did you bring any of your Emmys with you to, you know, like we did, plop down on your desk and can command respect, be like it was?

00;01;42;24 - 00;01;59;21
J.R. Havlan
Quite. See, you thought of that. You thought that that might be a fun thing to do, right? So I did not right out of the gate. No, but they have a break. So this place you can go for seven weeks, the place I was at. Or you can go for four weeks. There's a four week session and a three week session or you can be there for the whole seven weeks.

00;01;59;23 - 00;02;20;09
J.R. Havlan
So my son went for four weeks because he was already signed up for a different camp for, later in the summer. And my daughter, who had been signed up for this camp, in the in the for the second session, also went to the first session. Once I, decided to work there because they got to go for free, which is why you work at a summer camp.

00;02;20;11 - 00;02;42;00
J.R. Havlan
So during the break, my wife came to get my son, and, and by that time, people had kind of, like, caught wind of my, my checkered past, and, and so, you know, I talked to the director and I said, do you want me to. I can bring one out, you know, because there was one at the lake.

00;02;42;00 - 00;02;52;14
J.R. Havlan
And that's where Ellen was. And so, yeah, she brought the trophy out, and we just kept it in the office, and everybody got a huge kick out of it. People would come by to visited. It's really fun. Yeah.

00;02;52;16 - 00;03;00;02
Paul Sullivan
By that point they probably they didn't believe you. They're like, who is this guy? Did he really win it? Like, you know, show me the Emmy. They're probably yelling like, you know. Well, I.

00;03;00;02 - 00;03;12;26
J.R. Havlan
Mean, you know, look, we we live in a digital age, Paul, I'm sure you're aware of that podcast and everything, but, So, no, it's, you know, you don't have to go far to confirm my story or anybody.

00;03;12;29 - 00;03;21;06
Paul Sullivan
All right. How in the world did this job come about, and why did you want to do it?

00;03;21;08 - 00;03;46;11
J.R. Havlan
It came about because we signed our kids up for summer camps that we kind of research based on friends, you know, input and experiences and what we thought our kids might want. So we signed up, Zoe, for this camp called Chestnut Lake, which is in a place called Beach Lake, Pennsylvania, about two hours, 2.5 hours, kind of north, west of the of the city in the Poconos.

00;03;46;14 - 00;04;11;08
J.R. Havlan
And, and then we signed up my son for a different camp. That was far more focused on the arts. And, and so they were signed up for these camps, and we started getting newsletters from them, of course. And one of the newsletters from the, Chestnut Lake said, you know, come work with us. And my wife decided to click on that.

00;04;11;10 - 00;04;45;23
J.R. Havlan
And, of course, you know, I'm not going to go be like a counselor and sleep in a, you know, the bottom bunk under some 21 year old Austrian kid, right? But but, this that thing popped up, you know, communications director. And I was like, well, that's like a legit job, so. Or so it seems. Yeah. And she pointed out what she knew, which was that if you normally the way they compensate you is by letting your kids go there for free and as you, I'm sure know, and many of our lead dads know, summer camp ain't free, you know, not free.

00;04;45;25 - 00;05;09;12
J.R. Havlan
And it ain't cheap. Yeah. So, so that was that was enticing. And the opportunity to do something and be there with them. And then. So I signed up for it, you know, sent in the thing and, and had to fill out this really long, really long, like, application that was more geared towards the counselors and stuff.

00;05;09;15 - 00;05;17;22
J.R. Havlan
Yeah, the all kinds of questions about where do you see yourself in five years? You know, as I said, I don't know, you know, did.

00;05;17;22 - 00;05;19;22
Paul Sullivan
You answer it seriously or could could you really? Yeah.

00;05;19;23 - 00;05;37;20
J.R. Havlan
I mean, no, no no, no. At one point I started joking because I had to they're asking me questions like, you know, like like that. Like, where do you see yourself in five years? And I, I said five, five years. What do you see yourself? You know, I said five years older. You know where I'd see myself in five years?

00;05;37;22 - 00;05;40;23
Paul Sullivan
How about how does the interview go? Like, you can't just fill out the application then.

00;05;40;24 - 00;05;41;18
J.R. Havlan
Yeah. So then you.

00;05;41;18 - 00;05;44;00
Paul Sullivan
Get if you get nervous. Are you a little nervous going into the interview?

00;05;44;07 - 00;06;12;11
J.R. Havlan
No, because I get a little bit and I'll tell you exactly why. It because, because I also had to submit with this long, application in, references, which I have since my references. I got called the people from my last job. They're like, what? You know, how do you spell your name again? So. So I just, I really just got a few friends to, you know, just put their names on there, and, and one of them.

00;06;12;14 - 00;06;16;08
Paul Sullivan
One of the. You got. You're saying that like. Like Jon Stewart went bad for you. Like.

00;06;16;10 - 00;06;48;13
J.R. Havlan
I didn't get my summer gym, my summer camp job. So, so one of them, they called one of them. And the guy, like, had to fill out all kinds of stuff, but he was really cool about it, so that so that was nice and it was helpful. And then they called me and, and and, you know, there's just this sort of like zoom, you know, interviews started and my only concern at that point was when, if I don't get this job, like, then, you know, that might the, the most nerve wracking thing about it was like, what if I don't get it?

00;06;48;14 - 00;06;53;05
J.R. Havlan
Like, it was weird because I haven't really applied for a job in a while, you know?

00;06;53;08 - 00;06;58;14
Paul Sullivan
Did you like it for the zoom interview? Did you have, like, all eight of the Emmys around you? So they were glowing awesome.

00;06;58;15 - 00;07;00;28
J.R. Havlan
Yeah, yeah. That's because you know how I roll.

00;07;01;04 - 00;07;03;06
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I mean, I would impress them.

00;07;03;08 - 00;07;22;16
J.R. Havlan
Yeah. But the, no, I was legitimately like, you know, I don't want to get turned down. This seems like, of course, but of course, like, that was that was put aside very quickly because the guy who runs the camp seemed genuinely thrilled to that. I had, you know, signed up for.

00;07;22;16 - 00;07;34;23
Paul Sullivan
This. And so you were in it. You're an adult. You're an adult. You're you're not a 21 year old college kids. You're a 25 year old guy. Just to out of school. You're you're an adult and you know, right. You trust it.

00;07;34;26 - 00;07;59;26
J.R. Havlan
And that's what he that's what he wanted was somebody to run this kind of department, which had sort of fallen into kind of, you know, not exactly disarray, but, it wasn't at the top of its game, in large part because a lot of things were going wrong during Covid for the camps and stuff like that. And, and they just, they, it, they, they, they didn't have the system in place that they wanted and they wanted to change that up.

00;07;59;26 - 00;08;19;15
J.R. Havlan
And, and they put a lot of resources into it. And increased the number on the staff and brought me in to run the staff and brought back a guy they had there a few years ago who, who, who basically ran it. But when they had like three people running around with cameras trying to get stuff done. But it was good to have him because he helped me get things off the ground.

00;08;19;15 - 00;08;36;19
J.R. Havlan
And, and, you know, so he said, well, the job's yours. And, and then when, when, when I got that, then the kids, and part of the reason I took it was because both kids agreed before I said yes to go to the first session, which means that we went for a full seven weeks and Parker went for five for for four weeks.

00;08;36;22 - 00;08;58;21
J.R. Havlan
And that's, that's a, you know, not only a good chunk of, savings from not paying for that, but also the kids were not around. They would have been doing other stuff and, you know, let alone eating food and stuff. So so that was, it was it was significant. And Ellen got the chance to, have a summer.

00;08;58;21 - 00;09;23;29
J.R. Havlan
Her brother was up at the house, and she got to spend all kinds of time with him, and she was running around doing all the stuff you might do if you suddenly and like, you know, without night, without expectation. As a parent of a ten year old and a 12 year old had no one around in the summer, had an entire summer.

00;09;24;01 - 00;09;30;08
Paul Sullivan
You know, it's like, you know, it's it's like she ran away from her family, but with none of the shame or, like, social stigma.

00;09;30;10 - 00;09;33;00
J.R. Havlan
Yeah. The family ran away from her for a little while.

00;09;33;02 - 00;09;34;03
Paul Sullivan
Right? Yeah.

00;09;34;05 - 00;09;40;23
J.R. Havlan
Yeah. So she he's playing tennis and doing what? You know, because she works at a school, so she has the summer off, you know.

00;09;40;26 - 00;10;02;27
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I look, you know, any communication and directors job at any company, any organization in America is to paint the best picture of where you are. But, you know, look, in some ways that seems completely antithetical to what a comedy writer does, which is, you know, poking fun at the powerful. Like, how did you do this? How did you say, I mean, did you get sent to the camp director's office for being a wiseguy?

00;10;02;27 - 00;10;08;02
Paul Sullivan
Like, how does this work? How do you you know, the other part of your personality here?

00;10;08;04 - 00;10;32;22
J.R. Havlan
Well, I'll tell you, you know, it was, it was not like some kind of difficult transition. I wasn't sitting there just wanting to tell jokes and rip on the camp and do all this stuff. You know, while I was there, and I wasn't even exactly sure what they were going to expect from me. I didn't I thought I might be doing more correspondence and writing for, you know, little updates and stuff like that.

00;10;32;24 - 00;10;51;01
J.R. Havlan
But the director, who had always been doing this all along, was still up for doing that and wanted to do that. So he kept doing that. And, and I really ended up just running the, the department where we were really getting photographs of, of all the kids and then and then posting them. You know, that was my main duty.

00;10;51;01 - 00;11;17;13
J.R. Havlan
And I spent a lot of time doing that, scheduling everybody, making sure this got filled. Then there were a lot of times we didn't have, you know, we tried to make it equal how many photos we had. So I had to run around and take photos myself, which which I didn't do every day. And so it was really I was responsible for posting on this really great app that, most camps have now called Camp Companion, Companion, where they have, facial recognition.

00;11;17;13 - 00;11;34;02
J.R. Havlan
So you get, you sign up and you just get photos of your kid if you want to look through the rest, you can, but you can also just look through your tagged photos of your kid and, and so I did that, but I really, you know, I took it seriously. I take everything I do seriously. I wanted to do it right.

00;11;34;02 - 00;12;01;19
J.R. Havlan
I wanted to do it well. And so I would I was looking at thousands of pictures of day and going through them and, you know, ignoring some and getting rid of others and culling through them and editing, sometimes straightening them out a little bit and basically using as my guideline something that nobody else there on the staff, on my staff had, which was what would I want to see my kid in this picture?

00;12;01;21 - 00;12;14;06
J.R. Havlan
Right. And that was it. And that's all I needed. And it was, it was it was a kind of a gift to the process that that anybody without kids would not be able to bring along. Right.

00;12;14;09 - 00;12;23;19
Paul Sullivan
All right. You're just by. So you're telling me at no point, like when they're playing some sort of camp prank you didn't like, step in there and say, look, kids, let me show you how to do this. This is the better way.

00;12;23;19 - 00;12;43;06
J.R. Havlan
Oh, yeah. No, I mean, you know, I mean, you know, on my and, you know, in my, in my moments among other people, I would crack wise when I got a chance, you know, but I wasn't also going in like, you know, lampshade on my head, you know, trying to trying to prove something to all the kids. Daddy still got it.

00;12;43;08 - 00;12;59;01
J.R. Havlan
You know, I didn't need to bother with that. I, I had a job to do there. And honestly, I was really busy. And in a separate kind of, room, we had our own we had an office and it was kind of like a little bit away from a lot of other stuff. So there were, you know, I really didn't mingle that much.

00;12;59;01 - 00;13;17;19
J.R. Havlan
And a lot of times. So one of the things the schedule was very, you know, was was filled up for the kids, like there was always something for them to do, and they were meant to do these things throughout the day. And every evening, the entire camp would get together for, you know, a nighttime activity that was always like some kind of different thing.

00;13;17;19 - 00;13;32;03
J.R. Havlan
But the entire camp would get together, and I often wouldn't be at that, because that was the time when I was really trying to put together all the photos that had been taken during the day and get them out before the end of the night, because then we had to start all over. So you just could not get behind.

00;13;32;06 - 00;13;40;21
J.R. Havlan
Yeah, yeah. So I wasn't there for a lot of those things. So a lot of people didn't really get to know me or I didn't get to know them. I was just trying to do the job.

00;13;40;23 - 00;14;00;03
Paul Sullivan
All right. Let's talk about what parents want to hear here. You know, what's it really like? For for this, their kids, when they're away. What is the experience like in, you know, you obviously it had, you know, one view of your kids going to sleep away camp, but now you're at the sleepaway camp with them. What's the experience like?

00;14;00;06 - 00;14;19;03
J.R. Havlan
It's going to be different for every kid, you know. But it's I think in a nutshell, it's even better than the parents home for, you know, because their kids are having experiences that their parents that as parents, you can't provide for them, really.

00;14;19;06 - 00;14;20;08
Paul Sullivan
Like what?

00;14;20;11 - 00;14;49;19
J.R. Havlan
Well, I mean, you know, by that, I mean that they're having experiences on their own, making decisions on their own. They don't have anybody, you know, hovering over them. Although there were there are a handful of parents who continue to try to do that throughout the summer. And, and they just can't help themselves. Right. But, you know, you go there to have experiences now, like I was saying, like camps are very different.

00;14;49;19 - 00;15;09;09
J.R. Havlan
Like all I think a lot of the camps are very different now, this, this camp that, that I was at Chestnut Lake was, is sort of, sister camp to a place called trails, in which the owner of trails and is part owner of Chestnut Lake, and they're right next to each other. Trails in is a slightly bigger camp.

00;15;09;11 - 00;15;30;19
J.R. Havlan
They have a lot of the same kind of programing and, and, but there are seven weeks only. Okay. And chestnut has the four and three week options as well. And and then Parker and the next half of the summer, went to a place called French Woods, which is a pretty well.

00;15;30;19 - 00;15;33;22
Paul Sullivan
Known art and. Yeah. Yeah.

00;15;33;25 - 00;15;54;06
J.R. Havlan
Very close to where, very close in the same area as Chestnut Lake. I think it's in a literally in a county that has like 47 camps or something. It's really crazy. But I, I got the chance to go over to, to Trail's End for a day and check it out. And, you know, it was very it felt very similar.

00;15;54;06 - 00;16;11;08
J.R. Havlan
The layout was a little different, but it things felt very similar because they were basically they, they kind of, you know, chestnut learned off of them, but now they're becoming their own thing. Right. So and I was only there for a day and I didn't really see programing going on and stuff, but but it felt it felt similar.

00;16;11;10 - 00;16;32;16
J.R. Havlan
Then I went to French Woods and it was a completely different place because it was it's an arts camp and they really like you go there and you choose a major, and by the end of the three weeks you're doing a play, you know? Right? You're in a play, you're doing, you know, you're you're performing a concert because you took rock band, you're you're doing trapeze because you took circus.

00;16;32;18 - 00;16;48;14
J.R. Havlan
You're, you know, you're showing your movie because you took, filmmaking. And so they bring you in to do the specific things, and then they make sure that you get them, you get them done. They they it was pretty tight. It was it was interesting. Was very cool for Parker. He loved it.

00;16;48;16 - 00;17;01;27
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I mean, part of what you were doing, though, was saying the photos home was just sort of capture real time. The experience that those kids are having, the joy that they're having because, you know, you and I both have have kids. You and five kids between us and and sometimes you ask them, you know, how was that?

00;17;02;04 - 00;17;25;03
Paul Sullivan
And they get fine looks okay. Unless you see them in the moment. And then you see, you know, the the joy that they're having when when you think of what parents, you know, would like to really know about, you know, how their kids grow at this particular camp. How was it like when you looked at some of those kids, even your own kids, like, from, you know, day one to the end of four weeks to the end of of seven weeks.

00;17;25;06 - 00;17;53;07
J.R. Havlan
Thinking camp like chestnut, their main purpose is to help kids kind of define their, their limits, you know, to an extent. And, and then, then then push those limits, you know, and have people there to guide them and, and, and help them along the way. It's really like finding, you know, finding yourself a little bit like being comfortable outside of your comfort zone.

00;17;53;07 - 00;18;16;01
J.R. Havlan
Like, that's what I meant to say, this comfort zone. Like, did the find the comfort zone and then kind of work outside of it. And so, you know, they have, the, the basketball and lacrosse and soccer and swimming in the lakefront and know obstacle, you know, like a ropes course and tennis and they, they put on two plays while, you know, a play each session.

00;18;16;03 - 00;18;32;24
J.R. Havlan
And, it was at a different level then, then, then French woods. But it's not what they do. But they did do it. So kids got the chance and the plays were great. You know, they were fun to watch. Yeah. And and kids who'd never been in a play got to be in a play. Kids who never played in lacrosse got to play lacrosse.

00;18;32;24 - 00;18;49;25
J.R. Havlan
And they they see what they like. And then you're also just going there to learn how to be with other people and, and accomplish things with other people. I mean, a lot of the programing they have and a lot of stuff that they do at night, they do it specifically so that the kids kind of are working together towards some kind of common goal.

00;18;49;25 - 00;19;15;15
J.R. Havlan
It's just like, even if you're not on a team, you're part of a team. And that's what that camp is, is all about, is he's learning to be the person that, that you don't might not realize you are yet. And that's the big step for a kid, and a step that the, the influence of, the the influence of a parents, presence doesn't always facilitate.

00;19;15;17 - 00;19;32;16
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. It's he time with the parents. Second time. I mean, how I mean, what makes a good camp parent? You said a couple of them. We're still hovering over, but. But what makes, you know, a good, supportive parent when you know his or her children go go off to sleepaway camp?

00;19;32;21 - 00;19;53;14
J.R. Havlan
They they communicate with them, as, as frequently, kind of as possible, given whatever communication the camps have. Now, many of the camps these days, you know, don't let the kids carry their phones around. They only give them access to email if they give them access to email at all on a, every, every once in a while.

00;19;53;16 - 00;20;20;27
J.R. Havlan
And, and there really are some you can't just be phoning home or calling them up or anything like that. Right. So you don't have these opportunities to, to, to, to really communicate with them as regularly as you might when they're hanging out in your house, over the summertime. Right. But, but when you can, you should write them a letter, find out what's going on.

00;20;20;27 - 00;20;38;00
J.R. Havlan
I mean, a big part of why, you know, get them talking about their experiences. Because a big a big part of the of, of the photographs as well is to kind of tell the story. It's going to make the parents feel comfortable over there. They are there with friends smiling. They're having a good time. They're doing so wow, I never even knew he could throw a baseball.

00;20;38;00 - 00;20;56;25
J.R. Havlan
And there is he's doing all these things. And that also allows us to help the parents facilitate a, a, a, a conversation with their kids that they can do over email to ask them questions about, I thought you doing this, how are you doing that? How was that? And what else are you doing? And and so they have questions to ask them.

00;20;56;25 - 00;21;20;02
J.R. Havlan
And the kids have something to talk about. And so I think it's just kind of being supportive and encouraging them to continue trying these things and, and meeting people and being kind and, and also getting through tough spots. You know, not every kid is comfortable socially or just to be away from their parents. I mean, there is a lot of homesickness.

00;21;20;02 - 00;21;33;29
J.R. Havlan
This is going to be every single camp there going to be. Some kids are just crying right away. Their kids are crying when they get dropped off, and then because they don't want to let go of their parents, and then at the end of it, they're crying when they're getting picked up because they don't want to let go of their counselors.

00;21;33;29 - 00;21;54;09
J.R. Havlan
I mean, that happened a lot with a lot of them. Yeah, you know, and it's and it can't happen if the parent doesn't let the kid go. You know, if you love something, let it go. Right. They you know, it's not something that we're used to doing a lot of times, especially at that age. I mean, there are campers there that are seven, eight years old for for seven weeks.

00;21;54;09 - 00;21;56;08
J.R. Havlan
It's it's incredible.

00;21;56;10 - 00;21;57;09
Paul Sullivan
Look out.

00;21;57;12 - 00;22;21;04
J.R. Havlan
Yeah. So, I mean, not a lot of them. I think that they, they, they're there are some there are some that are, there's, they're there are several groups like Zoe's there's always 10 or 11 and and there were two groups below her group, so they were, you know, ten and nine and but then there are some kids who are eight and seven.

00;22;21;04 - 00;22;37;08
J.R. Havlan
They can come early if they want. There are a lot of kids that are the children of people who are working there. You know, you know, they don't necessarily have to be siblings, but there are a lot of siblings there as well. And, and, and then, look, you know, there are kids who are like, super kind and bring you right into the fold.

00;22;37;08 - 00;23;01;16
J.R. Havlan
There are kids who are just kind of like main kids. And they, they, they get there, they, they do whatever they do. And there wasn't there wasn't a lot of it. I mean, I didn't I didn't see that end of, that end of like camp much at all because I wasn't out there seeing it. But according to my son and my daughter, there was not much of that to speak of, which is great, which was great to hear.

00;23;01;16 - 00;23;05;24
Paul Sullivan
You know what makes a bad camp parent?

00;23;05;26 - 00;23;33;25
J.R. Havlan
Just clinging on too much, you know, making making sure that they're doing what they want them to do, trying to control the kids still from afar, you know. Yeah. And trying to control the. That's just for the kid themselves. Because the kid can take on. It's like a dog, you know, takes on the anxiety of its owner, you know, like it's the the kid is feeling, like, pressured by their parents to do a certain thing or to be a certain way or to tell them something that they can't tell them.

00;23;33;27 - 00;23;56;27
J.R. Havlan
And so it's just like too much anxiety. It is an anxious parent. I mean, it's not just a camp parent, it's just an anxious person. A lot of people are anxious. If you think you're going to have 500 kids at a camp and and none of their parents are going to be anxious people, yeah, you're dead wrong. And those anxious people, they they boil up to the surface pretty quickly.

00;23;56;29 - 00;24;17;16
J.R. Havlan
And you know who they are. And they they make you anxious. So they must make their kids anxious, you know, and they're just because they're just trying to make sure this, that this is happening and this is happening and this is happening. And why did they seem, you know, it was hard with the pictures because, yeah. You say you want to paint the prettiest picture that you can.

00;24;17;21 - 00;24;29;12
J.R. Havlan
Now, that wasn't necessarily hard because we had a lot of great pictures of kids having fun. I mean, that's what they do there, right? So it's not like it's a lie, but I'm not going to post a picture of some kid crying, you know?

00;24;29;14 - 00;24;33;09
Paul Sullivan
Right. You could have like your own kids. You could have sent them. Yeah. Your wife. Right. Nobody.

00;24;33;09 - 00;24;49;24
J.R. Havlan
Yeah. No, no, no place does that. But we also didn't really like have a lot of pictures of children crying. But you would have pictures where and this is where my experience as a parent came in handy, which was, you know, there were a lot of pictures with the kids are just posing, you know, doing all this stuff.

00;24;49;24 - 00;25;18;00
J.R. Havlan
Right. And it does get tiresome after a while, but you get a lot of those because they're posing and it's much easier to take a picture like that. Right? You wanted to get as I tried to get as many action shots as I could in there, I tried to get other shots of like just them working on a, you know, on clay, you know, or something or just, you know, working in the woodshop or something like that where they don't really have any sort of expression on their face other than concentration, which to me, concentration and focus, which to me I want to see.

00;25;18;00 - 00;25;39;29
J.R. Havlan
I'm like, I love to look at pictures of my kids focusing on something, you know, it's fabulous. So you put those in there. But sometimes, like, you have a great picture and there's a kid in the back who's just not in the picture. He's not necessarily doing anything at the time. And the parent, the anxious parent, you know, defines that as what's is he okay?

00;25;39;29 - 00;25;47;08
J.R. Havlan
Is everything okay? I so this picture is you okay? Can you can I talk to him? It's like, no, no, he's fine. And you can't talk to him.

00;25;47;13 - 00;25;53;24
Paul Sullivan
But that's why you instituted some sort of Soviet era photoshopping, right? And you would just, like, blur all those kids out of the photo.

00;25;53;24 - 00;26;17;04
J.R. Havlan
And I didn't even bother blurring faces. But it was. It was sort of like, as helpful as the companion app is. And, and the the facial recognition is wildly accurate. So if you cut like this much of a kid's face that knows who it is and he posts it, so even blurry background shots, the kids would be in them.

00;26;17;06 - 00;26;32;11
J.R. Havlan
And there was every once in a while, like, like I knew I yeah, I could tell just by looking. After a while, I could tell that a kid was having a good time or was really bummed out. And sometimes I would see kids at teen bummed out, but I wouldn't even know for sure that I was right about that.

00;26;32;11 - 00;26;51;25
J.R. Havlan
But I could kind of tell and and I would still use my own radar to post those or not. But there were times when, you know, there's a great picture and there's a kid behind him that doesn't look right. And sometimes I just wouldn't post it. But mainly because we had a couple of other pictures similar to that, and sometimes there were kids in the back.

00;26;51;25 - 00;27;12;13
J.R. Havlan
It didn't look right, and I posted it anyway because the other pictures very good. And I know, I know that kid. I've seen that kid out having fun. I think I just got done looking at ten other pictures of him having fun. And so so if the parent wants to focus on that one and think the kid is there's something wrong, there's nothing you can do about that.

00;27;12;13 - 00;27;19;08
J.R. Havlan
And I'm not going to deprive other parents of good photos because a few of them are a little bit naughty. You know?

00;27;19;11 - 00;27;34;19
Paul Sullivan
So for this, talk to me about, you know, you're there for seven weeks. You go in with a certain, expectation. What was it like for you as a, as a parent? You know, to be in this role, like, how are you changed by the seven weeks at sleepaway camp?

00;27;34;22 - 00;27;36;10
J.R. Havlan
Well, I lost 10 pounds.

00;27;36;12 - 00;27;40;12
Paul Sullivan
You look great. Yeah, that's. You know, I'm jealous of that.

00;27;40;15 - 00;27;43;23
J.R. Havlan
I already put five back on, but,

00;27;43;25 - 00;27;50;22
Paul Sullivan
You you got it. You gotta step up for the kid. You didn't lose 10 pounds because the food is horrible. You lost 10 pounds because you were so active at camp, right?

00;27;50;22 - 00;28;02;12
J.R. Havlan
Well, I was no, that's that's that's true. I mean, I could have kept eating. I could have aged fine. The food was fine. The food was not fantastic. The food was not horrible. You know, the food was was better than you may have expected and allowed.

00;28;02;12 - 00;28;04;07
Paul Sullivan
Us to eradicate and die in there.

00;28;04;10 - 00;28;21;06
J.R. Havlan
And they had. Yeah. And they and they had a good salad bar and I was mainly just that's all I did. I would run and make a salad and come back because all of the meals were scheduled at the times when I was busiest. So that was another reason I didn't meet a lot of people. I was not hanging out at the tables, eating with everybody else, you know.

00;28;21;09 - 00;28;47;19
J.R. Havlan
But, you know, I hadn't I hadn't worked for a while. So working around the clock six days a week right out of the gate was a challenge. Just physically and mentally, you know, to stay focused and to just kind of keep up with it. But it was also stimulating, you know, I mean, I was doing something I had a I had a, I had a job, I had a mission, and I wanted to get it done right.

00;28;47;19 - 00;29;06;18
J.R. Havlan
And so I worked very hard to do that. I didn't see my kids much unless I kind of went out of my way to do that. My, the most I saw them was that, at, at the, at the meals. And I would just run in and get mine and run out, but I'd say hi and, and they'd come up and say hi.

00;29;06;20 - 00;29;23;26
J.R. Havlan
I talked to Zoe more than I talked to Parker because it's just the nature of the relationship. Like he doesn't talk as much and or come up to me as much, right? But at one point I said to him, you know, I don't I haven't even talked to you. I just realized I haven't even talked to you for like a week.

00;29;23;29 - 00;29;37;27
J.R. Havlan
So let's can you leave lunch a little early and we'll go sit down somewhere and talk? He said, yeah, sure. And we did. And he just unloaded, told me all kinds of everything that's going on. And it was great. So we made so we did that like a couple of times a week till the end of the year.

00;29;38;00 - 00;30;03;27
J.R. Havlan
Yeah. And so that was nice. And it was I mean, you know, there's just a lot of activity was just interesting to see a new thing, like try to develop a new thing and make make something better than it was and see how a place like this is run. I mean, I think the thing that I learned the most is that, you know, that can hopefully be a message to parents that they're sending their kids to campus.

00;30;03;29 - 00;30;26;16
J.R. Havlan
You know, you got to respect the effort that goes into making one of these places run. It is monumental. I mean, it's just super crazy from, from well, before your kids get their, you know, well before your kids get there, just in the staffing and getting everybody on board and teaching them what they need to do and all the scheduling and we had a lot of rain this summer.

00;30;26;16 - 00;30;48;18
J.R. Havlan
So the schedule change every time. There's a ton of outdoor activities. I mean, the first couple of weeks it rained probably every other day, and that just completely screws up the schedule and made it very hard for us to get pictures, because all of a sudden they're just back to their bunks where we didn't take pictures, or they're in the theater watching a movie or something where you can't take pictures and, you know, so that made that hard.

00;30;48;25 - 00;31;13;11
J.R. Havlan
But it was also just the level at which they operate. And I'm sure that all camps are, you know, have their strengths and their weaknesses when it comes to like, not only operating the camp on a daily basis, but communicating to the parents how that's going. And, answering any questions they might have, not only, you know, at the moment, but, you know, in advance.

00;31;13;14 - 00;31;46;14
J.R. Havlan
It's, it's a, it's a, it's just a, it's a ton of work and it takes certain people to do it. And, and not everybody makes it through the summer, you know, that. I'm sure this happens at every camp, every other camp as well. You know, you get a bunch of kids coming over from Europe and I say kids, but they're in their 20s or whatever, you know, and, and, and, and most of them are from the UK and around Europe and, they're coming out here so that they can work at this and not make a bunch of money, but get out to America and then go spend the next 2 or 3

00;31;46;14 - 00;32;04;15
J.R. Havlan
weeks, you know, go to New York and LA and flying around and going all kinds of different places, which, which is what they do. And so it was, you know, but but a lot of them or a number of them don't make it through. They have to be let go because they, you know, maybe they've done something wrong.

00;32;04;15 - 00;32;22;19
J.R. Havlan
It was probably more often where they just couldn't swing it. You know, they're like, I gotta get out of here. I just can't do this, you know? Because it's a lot of work and you have to be in a frame of mind, like, I'm here to help kids have a good time. I'm here to guide them the best I can and to support them the best I can.

00;32;22;24 - 00;32;42;08
J.R. Havlan
And the vast majority of these, these employees at these camps, that's what they do. And they do it well. And they're doing they're doing parents huge favors. And oftentimes are going to end up teaching your kid or getting your kid off, you know, on a route that that, you may not have gotten them off on.

00;32;42;13 - 00;32;47;09
J.R. Havlan
It's like, it's pretty amazing, you know? Big deal.

00;32;47;11 - 00;33;07;17
Paul Sullivan
This been great. Jared. Thanks for coming back on the podcast. One last question. And it's a one word answer. I me two words. If you could summarize like the experience that your son had in a word and the experience that your daughter had in word, at this camp, what would those words be?

00;33;07;19 - 00;33;13;04
J.R. Havlan
That my son was fine and my daughter had fun.

00;33;13;07 - 00;33;13;21
Paul Sullivan
Perfect. Good.

00;33;13;21 - 00;33;19;04
J.R. Havlan
And and. Well. But before that, I wanted to mention that that the book that I want to work on based on this.

00;33;19;04 - 00;33;20;12
Paul Sullivan
Experience I had.

00;33;20;19 - 00;33;26;04
J.R. Havlan
That hopefully will we can post some stuff on the on the company dad's website.

00;33;26;07 - 00;33;30;19
Paul Sullivan
Did you give the teaser here? Before we go give give the working title of the book, which I love the work.

00;33;30;24 - 00;33;55;27
J.R. Havlan
I didn't go into it looking for a project necessarily, but having gotten a, you know, having gotten a number of emails from parents sent directly to me, some of them, some of them great, some of them good, some of them bad, some of them annoying. I, I it made me think of, the phrase letters from camp where you would get letters from a kid who's at camp and kind of tell the story of the kid.

00;33;56;00 - 00;34;21;20
J.R. Havlan
I want to write a book called The Letters to Camp, written supposedly by the, of varying, varying levels of parents with varying levels of anxiety about their kids being there. And based on some of the stuff that, now I'm not only received, but some of the experiences that I had. And I think that, the purpose of it is going to be obviously for a good laugh.

00;34;21;22 - 00;34;40;09
J.R. Havlan
But also as a little bit of insight, not only on the human psyche in general, but on how parents can sort of get a little bit out of that, on how to be a good camp parent, because a lot of people send their kids to camp and it'll be a little insight on on what to what you can do right and what you can do wrong.

00;34;40;11 - 00;34;53;01
Paul Sullivan
I love it, I can just imagine now you know, that the Type-A parent, like, you know, Mr. Habel and I really appreciate your, photographs, but my uncle, is a cinematographer, and he said you could use some work on the lighting of little Johnny.

00;34;53;04 - 00;35;09;12
J.R. Havlan
Yeah, well, I can I can tell you in a nutshell that the that the, most of the emails I got began with the phrase, I don't want to be one of those parents, but.

00;35;09;15 - 00;35;13;14
Paul Sullivan
It's the but it's always a but. Yeah, but I'm going to be.

00;35;13;16 - 00;35;17;17
J.R. Havlan
Yeah, I'm going to be. Here it comes. You're ready for it.

00;35;17;20 - 00;35;22;08
Paul Sullivan
Dare have Lynn. Thank you again for joining me on the Company Dads podcast.

00;35;22;09 - 00;35;26;05
J.R. Havlan
Oh you're welcome man. It's always good always fun.

00;35;26;07 - 00;35;54;28
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the Company of Dads podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do in the company of dads. Possible. Helder, Mira, who is our audio producer Lindsay Decker, handles all of our social media. Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition. Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me on many things that we do here at The Company of Dads.

00;35;54;28 - 00;36;07;16
Paul Sullivan
It's a great team. And we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad. Sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash.

00;36;07;16 - 00;36;08;03
J.R. Havlan
The dad.

00;36;08;07 - 00;36;09;09
Paul Sullivan
Thank you again for listening.