EP117: Barbells to Braids: How A Bouncer Led An Awakening

Interview with Michael Ray / International Fatherhood Advocate

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Michael Ray provided security for music superstars - Jon Bon Jovi, Whitney Houston, INXS. Bruce Springsteen was the nicest. Then, on the cusp of turning 50, he became a father. Less than two years later, going through a cancer scare, he became a solo dad, when his daughter's mother left them both. Today, a decade later, he's a leading voice for father's rights in Australia and beyond. It all began when he was told he couldn't braid his young daughter's hair before her ballet recital. Listen to how he's changing hearts and minds.

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Transcript

00;00;05;18 - 00;00;24;16
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being a dad in a world where men with a go to parent aren't always accepted at work, among their friends, or in the community for what they do. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. today our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the company of dads.

00;00;24;17 - 00;00;48;25
Paul Sullivan
We have various features including lead dad of the week. We have our monthly meetups and we have a resource library for all fathers. The one stop shop for all of this is our newsletter, The Dad. So sign up today at the company of dads dot com. Backslash the dad. Today our guest is Michael Ray, a LinkedIn top voice on gender equity and a solo dad to his 12 year old daughter, Charlotte.

00;00;49;01 - 00;01;18;21
Paul Sullivan
I've been following Michael for the better part of two years and I am just a fan. I'm a I'm a super fan of what he writes about, how he thinks about fatherhood and and gender, and I'm really grateful he's here. You know, for those of you. Follow him on LinkedIn. Michael, I get there, follow him right away. He's also the author of two books, one who knew from bouncing and barbells to ballet and braid, and a children's book called A Step in the Right Direction.

00;01;18;21 - 00;01;33;04
Paul Sullivan
And all of this began when his daughter was four, and he wanted to get her ready for her ballet recital. We'll talk about that later in the show. But first off, Michael, welcome to the Company Dads podcast.

00;01;33;06 - 00;01;43;03
Michael Ray
Hey, you know, thanks so much for the opportunity. You might let me just tell you and the viewers, I come from the future in Australia. It's tomorrow, they're in America and it's all okay.

00;01;43;04 - 00;01;59;19
Paul Sullivan
Tomorrow's okay, tomorrow's okay. Because I'm still trying to get through yesterday, Michael. So that's what we're doing here. You know, this is you know I the the toughest part when you find somebody in Australia that you want to connect with, say God. God. That's the worst time zone. Different you could possibly have from the East Coast. And you're you're in the West.

00;01;59;20 - 00;02;03;03
Paul Sullivan
You're in Melbourne, you're in the west coast of Australia. I'm outside.

00;02;03;05 - 00;02;03;28
Michael Ray
Coastal.

00;02;04;00 - 00;02;18;10
Paul Sullivan
Melbourne. I that's what I meant to say, because my because I'm an American. And so we have great, skills when it comes to geography. Michael. On the East coast. And so here I am on the east coast of America. Big time there. But we made it work, Michael. And that's a step in the right direction, right?

00;02;18;12 - 00;02;20;15
Michael Ray
Oh, that be a good name for a bookkeeper?

00;02;20;18 - 00;02;40;08
Paul Sullivan
Okay. All right. You know, from following you from meeting, a lot of what you written, you're the type of guy where there's a big before and after story here. And if anybody missed it, the subtitle of that book, From Bouncing and Barbells to Ballet and Braids, that really sets up a dichotomy. So what was that before and after?

00;02;40;14 - 00;02;47;19
Paul Sullivan
You know, what was who was Michael before the age of 49 when he became, a dad?

00;02;47;22 - 00;03;08;00
Michael Ray
Like, grew up in a typical heteronormative home. Mom ran the home. Dad, dad did all of the work. Mom didn't even have a license until dad had a stroke, later in life. Because that would do everything. And, support mom. They had a fantastic marriage that lasted all of their lives. They raised three kids. Two of them turned out okay.

00;03;08;00 - 00;03;34;01
Michael Ray
And then there was me. I in my early days, I was a bodyguard for every rock star that came through Melbourne. Everyone from Bon Jovi through to Whitney Houston, Bruce Springsteen, guns and roses. So getting to travel right through Asia and Australia with these guys and a lot of bravado and, machismo type thing standing.

00;03;34;01 - 00;03;42;29
Paul Sullivan
But what about those guys like, you know, in America, we love the Australian bands. What about like in Excess and Men at Work? Did you ever do any anything for for those guys?

00;03;43;01 - 00;04;05;03
Michael Ray
All of those. I can actually take an old early story of In Excess. They come down from Sydney that were playing under a pseudonym, spiders from Mars, and they were sleeping on a couch in the lounge room floor at my boss's house. That's how early in their days they were, because I wanted to see like a break into the Melbourne market, which was pretty big back then.

00;04;05;06 - 00;04;38;15
Michael Ray
Yeah. So all all of those guys, stayed at people's houses while they, while they were on tour looking out for their wives just constantly in that, went on to become an elite level strength and conditioning coach. Lived in America for a while coaching some, tennis players, boxers. So pretty, real macho, hyper masculine world. And then suddenly, at 49, after a short term relationship, became a dad, and, he bought a shop that was.

00;04;38;17 - 00;05;04;23
Paul Sullivan
Talk about it was a shocking party. You know, I guess at 49, you didn't think you'd be a dad. Then you become a dad. Talk about, you know, the process. Like he said, at a very hyper, you know, masculine world. You you have you have one daughter, Charlie. And so you're going to be a girl, dad. You know, what was was there an adjustment period for you from being not a dad to becoming a dad?

00;05;04;25 - 00;05;28;07
Michael Ray
It was it was great. I don't honestly thought fatherhood had passed me by, and the odds were always against me with my my looks and personality of ever getting the opportunity to become a dad. But it happened and, otherwise had a connection with kids. In my role as a strength and conditioning coach, a lot of kids, they gravitated to me.

00;05;28;07 - 00;05;53;23
Michael Ray
I was a a swing teacher for for many years. So I love kids, but it was just something where I thought, hey, you know, if it happens, it it happens. I didn't have problems, or any concerns about being a dad. I had small concerns about, being in a relationship, then that then, to bear that out, the relationship ended about nine months after Charlie was born.

00;05;53;25 - 00;06;05;01
Michael Ray
So I became a single dad at nine months old. And then, soul parent, when Charlie was about 16 months old, with a mum playing no further part in her life.

00;06;05;04 - 00;06;10;11
Paul Sullivan
And has that continued? Is her mom still out of her life? And you're the sole parent?

00;06;10;14 - 00;06;35;27
Michael Ray
Yeah. Mum's out of a loss. But believe it or not, I managed to find somebody. I got married in February, one year ago to the most amazing, woman. But, for the first five and a bit years, I made a point of staying single because I couldn't risk people coming in and out of Charlie's lives, and, I come from a place of scarcity as a dad.

00;06;35;27 - 00;06;56;06
Michael Ray
So when we separated, getting access to my daughter was was being challenged. And two weeks after we separated, after a small car accident, they took me just to scan my neck, and they found out that, I had some lumps and bumps that weren't meant to be there. And my future wasn't guaranteed. So suddenly, that mindset of.

00;06;56;12 - 00;07;22;27
Michael Ray
Will my daughter even remember me? Will I be able to do anything with her of any impact all at once, having my access restricted? And I think I still live with that now. That's why I say in the book, it's the gift of clarity that often only comes through crisis. At that point, my life had become like a house that I built and furnished and filled with everything and all of those experiences.

00;07;23;00 - 00;07;41;13
Michael Ray
And when I heard the doctor speaking to me, the only thing of consequence, the only thing I could focus on, was what impact it was going to have on my daughter and and my loved one, so that that house had become. There were flames leaping through the roof and smoke billowing out the windows, and I was forced to consider what was.

00;07;41;13 - 00;08;03;22
Michael Ray
I prepared to run into that house, and everything else in life just melted away. And the only thing was my daughter. And that sort of continued. It was a blessing in disguise. It just really made me appreciate the fragility of, today and, you know, the benefits and the need to enjoy and embrace it. Yeah.

00;08;03;24 - 00;08;30;26
Paul Sullivan
You know, first time fatherhood is a shock for any man. You know, no matter, you know, any books you read, any any stories you hear from your buddies, anything you you witness when you go to someone's house. First time fatherhood for you, it sounds, exponentially more complicated. You, you know, your relationship was was on shaky ground. You you had, health concerns.

00;08;30;26 - 00;08;59;26
Paul Sullivan
You had, you know, access to your daughter being restricted. I'm going to guess it, you know, probably changed some of your thinking around what you were doing for a living. How did you. And that's not, you know, super uncommon. We know that in the United States, you know, 18% of all fathers are divorced, widowed or otherwise single. So when you were trying to, you know, sort through that and make it through to the other end, which would have, as you had what were the things that you thought of, what kept you going?

00;08;59;26 - 00;09;09;11
Paul Sullivan
How did you sort of tick away at things, you know, to get, you know, a year or two out from that moment of crisis?

00;09;09;14 - 00;09;38;13
Michael Ray
I, I'm fairly pragmatic after the the strength and conditioning and the coaching, it's control, the control, the books. Don't worry about what's outside of your control. So the thing that helped me get through and and if ever I, give advice to, to dads, it's, you know, make the moments count. The quantity of time with the child is never guaranteed because, as we say, we don't know illness, accent like anything can do that.

00;09;38;16 - 00;10;15;00
Michael Ray
But the quality of our time is always within our control. So you can make those moments between the moment camp. And that's that's what I focused on. You know, initially it was the, the standard, every other weekend. And then when the illness, popped up and the diagnosis worsened, the court actually hastened, to 50, 50 because, still makes me well up when I remember the judge saying, because they argued that it was no use my daughter getting attached to me because I may not be there in the future.

00;10;15;00 - 00;10;36;29
Michael Ray
And the judge actually, stopped it and said, look, this child deserves the form phone firm and lasting memories to carry with us through life going forward. And so we're going to expedite this. And so at, nine months old, a little bit later, sorry, ten months old, I was given 5050 custody, which is just unheard of.

00;10;36;29 - 00;11;00;22
Michael Ray
Even, my, lawyers couldn't believe that we got it. The judge was a great man, and I basically revolved around my treatment because there was radiation involved. You can't be, around an infant for three days. So he actually, work with the hospital to get my treatment regime and organize access. So I thought, you know, this is this is great.

00;11;00;23 - 00;11;32;05
Michael Ray
I've been given the best gift of all times regardless. So I'm just going to maximize that. And I don't think that's ever going away. People were always just grateful. And there are so many dads in the groups especially, I imagine it's insane for you that we speak with with dads are just desperate for more time, whether it's through, separation or work pressures or, you know, the one thing that I hear repeatedly is I wish I had more time with my kids while I've been given that.

00;11;32;05 - 00;11;34;17
Michael Ray
So I wasn't going to waste it.

00;11;34;19 - 00;11;56;14
Paul Sullivan
You know the story, you tell it and you say, oh, yeah, you know, it was really tough. Must be really tough for you back in the 1950s. But of course, it wasn't the 1950. This is we're talking 2013, 2014 where you were fighting for 5050, you know, access to your daughter. That is not an absurd thing to ask for.

00;11;56;16 - 00;12;25;09
Paul Sullivan
When you, you know, think now, think of like what the intervening, you know, ten years have been like. Do you see any progress happening in Australia around, you know, access equal access to, to children when parents get divorced? I mean, you're also a great model for this, but are you seeing that the country is making some progress to, to treat both, you know, moms and dads, you know, equally and not just to assume that mom does X and dad does Y.

00;12;25;11 - 00;12;52;06
Michael Ray
Oh, pull up the stats here in Australia show that 1 in 5 single parent households are currently led by fathers. So that, you know, that's 20%. But single father households are now the fastest growing family demographic in Australia is to might do increase 40 to 65%, but we still don't have change tables in mouse faces. We still, have in Victoria.

00;12;52;06 - 00;13;26;14
Michael Ray
He the first point of contact and the ongoing support of the new parents is still the maternal and child health center. So we haven't caught up with the fact that a lot of the support services and, things like that haven't been provided. These dads now, whether it's the court facilitating the, fastest growing family demographic being single fathers, or whether it's the fact that, mothers are struggling, at and right with, you know, it's, it's deemed that, that doesn't.

00;13;26;17 - 00;13;56;04
Michael Ray
But the interesting thing that I'd say is there's a perception that the family courts are biased against mom because of the outcomes, but it's like sausage making. If you look at what goes into the sausage, you can't be disappointed with what comes out. So my suggestion to dads is don't be disappointed that the family court didn't provide you with the opportunity to do what you had the opportunity to do before the separation.

00;13;56;07 - 00;14;27;10
Michael Ray
So before you separate, it's the time to organize your flexible work schedules. Before the time is done, say to your wife, I want to be equally responsible. I want to co-parent. I want to be accepted. Have, you know my influences and my story be able to influence the way I parent and not be a clone of you? Because when you turn up at court and say, right, who was doing all the childcare school drop thought, well, memos, but I was working all across the courts kind of go, well, why would that change?

00;14;27;10 - 00;14;48;15
Michael Ray
It's best for the kids, but if you turn up and go, I was 50% responsible, or I was the late dad or I was doing it all. The court isn't going to turn that on its head. So it's not the court that did it. It was. You missed the opportunity to get things in place because I often cited as you travel three weeks out of the month and you want 5050.

00;14;48;17 - 00;15;11;24
Michael Ray
So like, how are you gonna do math doesn't work. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I'm going to change my jobs. So you'll be unemployed for a while. You haven't got this, focus on what you can do to support mum, because the quality of our children's outcomes isn't determined on the number, the gender, even the cohabitation of, the parents.

00;15;11;27 - 00;15;32;11
Michael Ray
It's, the quality of the relationship within that family, everyone in it. So in fighting so that, 5050 and getting, you know, throwing the rules out, not being, that supportive, it's just going to impact your child. So, like it or not, you missed the boat.

00;15;32;13 - 00;15;56;05
Paul Sullivan
You know, by the time your daughter was two, you were a solo dad. You had full custody of her. That's pretty quick, you know, to go from fighting, to have access to her, to thinking you might die, to then being this solo dad, how did you, adjust to that? And, you know, what are some lessons that perhaps you took away from that pretty quick?

00;15;56;07 - 00;15;59;09
Paul Sullivan
Ascent into being, a solo dad?

00;15;59;12 - 00;16;26;09
Michael Ray
Oh, it again came back to that pragmatic coaching thing. Like, I don't have the skills to do this yet. It, like, strip it away. And it's not that, complicated. It's either one and or the other when they young. So they're either hungry or they, they need to be challenged. One of the hardest things was, the unsolicited parenting advice.

00;16;26;09 - 00;16;50;11
Michael Ray
And it will come from every way and some of the most patronizing, just ridiculous advice that, And you will get it everywhere you go, because the assumption was you were more Homer Simpson than than Bluey, and this child was at risk in UK. But the same with the compliments. And, you know, it's over.

00;16;50;11 - 00;16;55;29
Paul Sullivan
Compliment you like, oh my goodness. Look, he did bought her lunch. Look at that guy. Like yeah.

00;16;55;29 - 00;17;16;06
Michael Ray
Let's say, you know, I didn't kill cancer. I did a French braid. And the only reason I did French braid is because I went and had lessons to do it, because I thought, he's a skill that I need to, have, just in case. And I'll go to somebody to teach me to do it. So we used to go sit at afternoons.

00;17;16;06 - 00;17;40;01
Michael Ray
It was a hairdressing, place. And they used it when they close up. In we go. And they teach me all these new hair things. And it was great. When we walk out a day like, here's a mummy Daniel hair beautifully. And she'd say, no, it was daddy. And then it was like, really? And that's why I say, well, the hairdresser that just taught us how to do it, he was a bloke or a man as well.

00;17;40;01 - 00;17;47;11
Michael Ray
So, you know, I had male hairdressers. Yeah. You know, and that's how I said I didn't kill cancer. I'm just parenting.

00;17;47;13 - 00;18;09;13
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. But there was, you know, when I read your backstory, there was sort of a seminal moment in parenting when your daughter has a ballet recital and, you know, you want to help her get ready, but there's an obstacle in your way, you know, could you please, you know, share that story and how you got around eventually got around that obstacle.

00;18;09;15 - 00;18;33;12
Michael Ray
Well, being a dad, you know, taking my daughter and wanting to get her to socialize, with as many kids as we can. Because being a dad, it's a lot different than being a mum, because all of my friends, all of my mates were off working and their wives were, no gatekeepers, but they were the ones with the kids, so.

00;18;33;15 - 00;18;54;03
Michael Ray
And, so off we went to ballet. Three year old ballet was was great. And she like jumping around with a little mix. And we had the three year old ballet concept that was fun. And then at the four year old ballet content, we get all the information and it's, mothers are expected to be present for the full three hour dress rehearsal.

00;18;54;06 - 00;19;12;26
Michael Ray
Mothers need to ensure that the ballet ban is done in this fashion. Mothers need to ensure that the lipstick is a shade. It's a special mummy. And they take it off, and right at the bottom it's gone. And there are no males allowed in the backstage area. So I'm thinking it's just,

00;19;12;28 - 00;19;24;12
Paul Sullivan
But but but all in all, the first things on that list you like, you used to travel rock star. You knew, you knew about hair, you knew about makeup. You knew about all you know. So you had that cover by better than those moms. I mean, look at Jon Bon Jovi's hair back in the day.

00;19;24;12 - 00;19;46;19
Michael Ray
Come on. Yeah. Oh, I I'm used to these things, you know, the 160, the most popular children's books. When they did a a survey on them that was seen as less involved listing guides. So I'd be reading the jelly on No Doctor Zoo. So trying to find something that rhymes with mother in the middle of it and, you know, trying to find one through dead foods virtually impossible.

00;19;46;21 - 00;20;09;24
Michael Ray
So I just thought it's just a standard pro-rata form domain. Parents, they just put that. So when we get to the, concert information. Sarah put my hand up. So I have to be backstage because it's just chatting all I got asked the same question I've been asked a million times by employers and everyone through the years.

00;20;09;24 - 00;20;30;23
Michael Ray
Paul, did she have a nan or an auntie? I suppose she got both of those. But I'm a parent on our only parent. I'm 100% responsible for. I'm about 60% capable on a good day. But it's it's me or no one and they're actual responsible. Sorry, my parents got to be no. One and suck. Now, you don't seem to understand.

00;20;30;26 - 00;20;52;10
Michael Ray
I can't accept my daughter being backstage sharing with all the other students who knows or excel admin who you know, just can't wait to get out into the the high performance world with a four year old ballet concert and look around the room and go with a parent, with a parent, with a parent. And here I am on my own.

00;20;52;13 - 00;21;18;08
Michael Ray
I said, surely you can understand that's not acceptable. And it's actually, a little bit heartbreaking. Paul, at that stage, we were just going through a marriage equality debate here in Australia. So we're up to a rainbow socks in, in the realization that families come in all different, you know, configurations. So one day there was going to be two dads and two mums or whoever else it was going to be.

00;21;18;11 - 00;21;38;02
Michael Ray
So they said, sorry, Michael, child protection. I said, well, I've actually got what's called my working with children license here after being a swim teacher and sports coach. So I'm trusted with other people's children. So they said, oh, it's about the little girls being uncomfortable with a man backstage, and I'd support the two boys here in the class.

00;21;38;02 - 00;21;55;20
Michael Ray
Did you ask if they're uncomfortable with all the women? So they said, well, we'll have to have a meeting. Luckily, my men tried to back me up because I was doing a lot of the other girls ballet bands before class, and they said, well, if Michael's not allowed backstage when all it's how, it's all of us or none of us.

00;21;55;22 - 00;22;17;02
Michael Ray
Wow. Luckily one of the mums knew a journalist and when we walked out of the car, Charlie was a little bit upset, saying, dad, can't you be there? Let's not, but I'll be there. I won't let you down. It's. It's us or Gumball. I really want to do the content. I said, well, it's us, but with a lady came up, knocked on the windows of and Rob said, look, I know journalist, this is wrong.

00;22;17;04 - 00;22;44;19
Michael Ray
Journalist rang me up to hit get the story, but suddenly it's national news. It's it's ridiculous. It's on the main bulletins. It's. We had a big full page second page, one of our largest, newspapers nationally. I'm getting called up by radio stations. Oh, this is outrage. It was fair to say when I went back for that meeting with the ballet school, they had a rethink and the.

00;22;44;20 - 00;23;11;11
Michael Ray
Yeah, the ballet, ban was overturned. But, you know, it's just ridiculous. And that's why I said, look, I didn't create the problem. If you put on an event and there's no wheelchair access and there's somebody with a wheelchair, you make sure that there's a ramp, that there's access. So we we do all that. But if you're going to put on an event and go, oh, there's no facilities for men.

00;23;11;14 - 00;23;18;28
Michael Ray
So we can't have men. Well, no, you've got to provide the facilities because, you know, whatever happened to diversity and inclusion.

00;23;19;00 - 00;23;38;19
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. And obviously that's an amazing victory for you and Charlie. But I'm going to guess is that really what set your career in a different direction and started, you know, getting you to think more about being an advocate for, for fathers and in general, gender equality more broadly?

00;23;38;22 - 00;24;20;15
Michael Ray
Yeah, 100%. That's what kicked it off. And media, attention really came so suddenly every time there was something about, children and mothers. So whether it be flexible work impacting mothers, suddenly I was getting called, from the media as well. Well, what about fathers? I said, well, yeah, it's actually a little bit worse for fathers. So here in Australia, Workplace Gender Equality Agency reports that despite 70% of Australian workplaces now having a formal policy for flexible working, less than 2% have set targets for men's engagement in that flexible working.

00;24;20;17 - 00;24;53;01
Michael Ray
So that's why I say to it, you know, we keep the lazy dead trope need to go down the rubbish bin of history because until we acknowledge the significant barriers that we face, such as the ballet, hold the lesson we may be including a lot of times, but there's a big difference between being included and feeling welcomed where we inhabit those spaces, whether it be volunteering at the school canteen and, you know, there's been some pretty awkward, situations just like, well, why are you here on my daughter's Uber?

00;24;53;02 - 00;25;20;25
Michael Ray
Don't you work? And all of the the silly questions that, come with it. And that's why I say when we have there's a, thing called role encouraged incredulity. Sorry for my pronunciation there where a woman might be mistaken. A doctor mistaken as a nurse or a CEO mistaken as a secretary. Well, it happens to men as well, especially in caregiving, you know.

00;25;20;25 - 00;25;45;00
Michael Ray
Are you babysitting or are you, you know, good to say. Dad out with his daughter for 1 to 100 times. So it's right around the same with the mansplaining. Well, I hate to tell you how much mansplaining I've had done to me. And yeah, and a lot of people say, well, that's not as bad. You know, I said, well, it's the same opposite side of the same coin.

00;25;45;00 - 00;26;09;26
Michael Ray
So it's at the beginning of the shaming and guilt of mothers who don't carry the caring load and the doubt and denigration of dad to do. You can't separate both. So as much as we have, such a lab chorus of voices at the moment saying women, when given the opportunity, can do anything men can do, we hardly have a whisper.

00;26;09;28 - 00;26;33;18
Michael Ray
And people saying a part from birth and breastfeeding men can do anything women can do when given the opportunity. And that's what it needs to take, because workplaces need to get. I've got a a dad and a mum. I've got to provide them both with the same opportunity and any, negative aspects that they caring may have on a women's thing also apply to a man.

00;26;33;18 - 00;27;01;21
Michael Ray
So whereas the male is the ideal worker has always been. Yeah. Perpetrated on the the misnomer that while men don't have caring responsible so they can be more focused, more present, more engaged in the workplace and we just sort of, you know, sitting there, go, okay. Luckily, my wife's not that flexible working her workplaces in the 70% that does have the formal policy.

00;27;01;23 - 00;27;09;14
Michael Ray
Mine's in the 98% that doesn't. That's not a agenda choice. That's a failure of policy.

00;27;09;17 - 00;27;33;00
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You know, a couple so many things come to mind there. But one of the first was the scene in the Barbie movie from from last Summer, where the Ryan Gosling character, as Ken, you know, discovers this idea of patriarchy. And, you know, because whole movie turns the world on it. And then he goes in to talk to this doctor who's a woman, as he talked about, you know, gender incredulity and is as well, I mean, who's the doctor is like, I'm a doctor like you.

00;27;33;00 - 00;27;49;14
Paul Sullivan
You can't be a doctor. I'm I'm going to be a doctor. I'm a man like, you're not a doctor. And he says, and and he's so good at it because he shows the absurdity of. But, you know, listening to what you're saying here about, you know, the 70%, the 90%. And, you know, we can create all agree big companies can create all of these policies.

00;27;49;14 - 00;28;11;10
Paul Sullivan
They can create amazing policies and say, everything's going to be equal. You're going to have, there's a parental leave, you know, 20 weeks for the man, 20 weeks for, for, for for the woman, you know, no problem. You know, everybody, as we talk, a lot of the company dads about, you know, care shifts and, you know, care days of ways to sort of be open and honest about, you know, the way we're going to work and live.

00;28;11;10 - 00;28;41;16
Paul Sullivan
And those are good policy decisions. But the problem is it's pretty easy. Well, it's not easy, but it's easy enough to sort of mandate, an equal, allocation of days or times for men and women around parenting or caregiving. What's more difficult, though, is to train those or where companies have not invested the most into is to train those managers to speak differently, because when the manager says, well, you know, when I was doing this, I missed so much.

00;28;41;18 - 00;29;04;25
Paul Sullivan
And my kids life, you know, you're taking the time off like, but the career as I know you've done, you know, a lot of speaking, a lot of talking to companies when you talk to companies in Australia and you explain to them that it's not just setting up an equal policy, but it's training those managers so they are supportive of men and women so that men and women feel like they can take that time and not be penalized for it.

00;29;04;27 - 00;29;10;24
Paul Sullivan
What's your experience been like with some of these Australian companies and having these discussions with them?

00;29;10;26 - 00;29;42;11
Michael Ray
Well, I usually find the C-suite, a great they're committed. They they're genuine and authentic in their, desire to help men be more present, involved and engage in the to invite the line managers, not so much. And then trying to to get through to the the workforce that you've got one shot at this like the there's no I can do my child early years again at a later stage.

00;29;42;14 - 00;30;06;28
Michael Ray
So grab it now your workplace the fact that I'm here because a lot of places parental leave for dads is a bit like Fight Club with God. It's on paper. Don't you like Fight Club? Yeah, yeah. Skulk off. And when you get back, the minute you get back, don't talk about it. And straight back to you. 40 hour week stretch projects and all the rest of it.

00;30;06;28 - 00;30;36;12
Michael Ray
So I'd say to dads outside of these organizations, you've got your policy. Yep. What's the uptake? Somewhere between 6 and 14%. Really. And why do you think the policy is not working? What do you mean? Oh, is there any other initiative or policy or strategy that you would put in place thinking that great 100%, acceptance would be good, will be profitable?

00;30;36;12 - 00;31;05;18
Michael Ray
We'll call it a success and it's at between 6 and 14% you go well at jobs with provided it. So what do you think that says about your culture. What do you mean. Well do you stamp out are you worried about sexist, misogynistic, racial? You know, less diversity, inclusion. Yep. Well, what about dads being, joked about, you know, how was your holiday?

00;31;05;18 - 00;31;30;22
Michael Ray
You know, had you enjoy your break or when Tom gets back, we've got him going here rather than it's always people, puppies and kittens. Just for Christmas. And dads aren't just for parental leave. Both. Once you've got them ongoing long term, ever evolving needs in that. So rather than right, you're off for your six weeks. Great. Well pedal cells on the back.

00;31;30;22 - 00;31;55;19
Michael Ray
We're such a progressive, supportive company. But when you get back what do you mean flexible? What do you mean? Being able to, Yeah. Work four days a week. What do you mean, being able to transition, come back a couple of days a week, maybe extend it to four days or three days. All of these things that are provided to women to facilitate the caregiving and haven't supported women.

00;31;55;19 - 00;32;13;16
Michael Ray
They've actually locked them into that role on limited day progression. Whereas if we actually incentivize the changes we want to want to do and then say to the rest of the workforce, don't be scared. It's sort of like when your partner might to you say, I've got this great idea. I'm gonna go on a golf weekend with the boys.

00;32;13;16 - 00;32;31;06
Michael Ray
And you don't mind, do you? And I go, fine. And by what do you mean, that's fine? Do you mind if I got you? Do what you want. It's up to you. And he just. It's ruined for you. So you have, then? Yeah. Yeah. I'm probably not going to go. Yeah. I don't really want to do it because.

00;32;31;10 - 00;32;49;16
Michael Ray
And that's what a lot of the, shared parenting leave is like in these organizations. And that's why I say to them, without sounding like an advert, if you get someone like me in inside of them, I can tell you why you're worried about doing it. You don't feel you're as capable, as competent as your wife at it.

00;32;49;19 - 00;33;15;01
Michael Ray
The thought of being home alone with the child and something going wrong. It's a little bit terrifying and scared, but it's like being promoted into the new role. A lot more responsibilities. You have that imposter syndrome. You're not sure if you know all. I'm here to tell you. If I can do, anyone can do it because you couldn't have got a more consciously and conspicuously incompetent parent than me in the beginning.

00;33;15;08 - 00;33;34;25
Michael Ray
But the good news is, you don't become the parent the day your children are born. You only begin becoming a parent. No more than a student becomes a scholar. When they walk through the school gate, you learn that and it changes that much. What worked last week? I'll just put the crook in there. Beth. It's like that stopped working like it's.

00;33;34;25 - 00;33;43;14
Michael Ray
It's like a never ending cryptic crossword puzzle. And now I kind of, like, do it, but they don't break. They're pretty resilient.

00;33;43;17 - 00;34;01;23
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I joke with my oldest daughter, who's 14.5. Yeah, that I can't still can't believe that when she was born, you know, she fit in my arm like her head. Her head would be on my hand, and she would extend no further than than the bend of my elbow. And of course, now she's, a young woman. She's five foot, you know, six inches tall.

00;34;01;23 - 00;34;21;25
Paul Sullivan
She's as tall as my wife. You know, when I listen to this, I find this fascinating. I mean, one of the big things that the company did does, you know, obviously, we spent a lot of time doing workplace education, you know, either in-person keynote speeches or we're developing a whole course. And I believe, you know, that change happens at companies, that companies have a profit motive.

00;34;21;25 - 00;34;40;11
Paul Sullivan
And if we can show those companies that having equal policies for men and women is actually good for your entire workforce, it's good for dads or better humans. But it's also, if you really believe in gender equity in the workforce, then a woman should have every right to be promoted to the C-suite as the man. But if you don't have the equal policies, it's not going to happen.

00;34;40;11 - 00;34;58;06
Paul Sullivan
You're going to be in a shoe box. But I think like the best companies out there, they measure everything and they ask questions, you know, three, three, 60 questions. They figure it out. But I heard this story recently from Squarespace, which big tech company here in the US, the pride global. But, you know, they had this policy of equal leave for parents.

00;34;58;06 - 00;35;16;13
Paul Sullivan
And it's generous. Generous by United States standards, you know, is sort of you know, I think it's 2 to 20, 24 weeks for both men and women. And then they they did research and they realized that, you know, women were generally taking their full, allotment, you know, whatever it was, 20, 20 weeks, but men were only taking about half of it.

00;35;16;15 - 00;35;41;01
Paul Sullivan
And so the conclusion in asking that one question, that one data point, the conclusion was, well, we should we should reduce, parental leave for, for men. They're they're not taking it. And you know where I'm going with this. My initial reaction was, no, you asking the wrong question. The question is why aren't they taking it? Why? What is going wrong in management that they're not a feel that they are allowed to do it, to feel that they're going to be penalized?

00;35;41;02 - 00;35;59;29
Paul Sullivan
Just like when you've been in situations like that with companies in Australia, how have you helped those those leaders see some clarity around their policies and make those small changes today that are going to have big impacts for the company, but also for the community and of course, for for those moms and dads going forward.

00;36;00;03 - 00;36;25;20
Michael Ray
One of the biggest ones, Paul, is showing them the retention rates and the engagement of work networks. They've show me a man, struggling at home, whether they, through the relationship or with his child or going through a separation. I will show you one of the least productive, engaged employees you will ever have. Show me a man who sits here and goes, how good is this?

00;36;25;22 - 00;36;48;25
Michael Ray
I get to be a sports coach for my kids sports team because I'm supported. I get to do drop off. I get to do this. Another, firm may headhunting. They can offer me more. All that stuff now he doesn't. Employees don't leave jobs. They leave, managers and line managers. So that's why I said them. But you've also got to go.

00;36;48;25 - 00;37;12;09
Michael Ray
You've got an environmental and social governance, aspect that you put through. You want to talk about doing no harm to the environment. What about doing no harm to the families that work for you, the children's outcomes, all those things like you want to sit there and go, great, we've offset our carbon output by planting 400 trees. Meanwhile, we're insisting that our our men are there.

00;37;12;11 - 00;37;40;17
Michael Ray
Yeah, the fathers are there at this time and that time. And, you know, I think we need to put a little bit more value on the impact that you have because for too long, workplaces have not only shaped but even dictated family roles and dynamics going forward and those early years. And when you support them and go, he's actually some resources for you as a first one, nervous dad to help you settle into what to be comfortable.

00;37;40;23 - 00;38;03;01
Michael Ray
He's some reading or some experts that we think are fantastic. He is our dad's group that we have, but we also need to be careful that it's not just a dads group, that it's a parents group so that men can get in and share their experience and promote it. You know, how good is this? Instead of going to to Tom, are you going to take time off when you kids born?

00;38;03;06 - 00;38;24;13
Michael Ray
It's like, Tom, how much time are you going to take? You've got 14 weeks now. We're expecting you to to take the 14 weeks and what we can do along the way. We will have this point of contact, that point of contact. And when you come back, the question we do need to ask, do you want to come back to full time, hands on role, or do you want to come back a couple of days a week?

00;38;24;16 - 00;38;46;16
Michael Ray
You know, do you want to be contacted and just do everything rather than asking the quiz questions with a negative connotation? Because the assumption should be, oh, you're going to take it all right, why wouldn't you? It's the most wonderful, stressful, magical, messy moments that you'll ever endure in your life, and you'll come back a better person, both professionally and personally through doing it.

00;38;46;16 - 00;38;54;01
Michael Ray
And we're expecting to see some serious growth and opportunities for you as a result of it.

00;38;54;03 - 00;39;20;04
Paul Sullivan
Michael. Right. Thanks for being my guest today on the Of Dads podcast. Last question for you, Charlie, is 12. When you think about, you know, this age now and all the stuff that you're doing with her, you know, did you ever imagine it when she was two, you know, how is this, you know, to tell me, you know, the leave us with a great story of of of you and Charlie and then things that you, you still like to do.

00;39;20;04 - 00;39;25;08
Paul Sullivan
I'm, I'm going to guess, you know, senior video here. She's not braiding your hair. So.

00;39;25;10 - 00;39;26;18
Michael Ray
She's causing it to leave.

00;39;26;19 - 00;39;28;07
Paul Sullivan


00;39;30;08 - 00;39;54;29
Michael Ray
One of the most, impactful moments was when I was going through the treatment, when I was young. I was struggling with the treatment. And I remember saying to the nurse, you know, I just don't know if I can do this. Everything was becoming overwhelming. And this nurse actually said to me, look, one day you'll be at Disneyland with this kid, and you look back and this will be nothing but a speed bump.

00;39;54;29 - 00;40;19;18
Michael Ray
You've got to play the long game and and look to the future. Well, as it happened, Disney reached out and I did a story for Disney. And the story went so well. I did another couple and they offered me tickets to Disneyland and I said, Any Disneyland you want? So off we went to Hong Kong, and when we got to the gates of Disneyland, I'm gonna cry again.

00;40;19;18 - 00;40;40;17
Michael Ray
Now I lost it completely. I had Chinese people coming. Oh, you lost your door. You lost it? No, I'm just happy. Like I just completely lost it. And I think that was the first time she was six then. I think that was the first time where I actually exhaled and thought on the on the dead. Yeah. The bad stuff is gone.

00;40;40;17 - 00;41;08;13
Michael Ray
We can put that away. And, you know, now we go surfing together. She holds an Australian Powerlifting, a couple of Australian powerlifting records. She won. We play AFL football here, which is pretty rough. It's like NFL, but without the pads. She wins. The coaches award. So. And everyone keeps saying to me, thankfully she doesn't look like you, but she's got your personality and it's just, you know, it's just magical.

00;41;08;15 - 00;41;12;26
Michael Ray
Yeah, Los Life is the best at the moment.

00;41;12;28 - 00;41;31;12
Paul Sullivan
It's a wonderful story. I want to tie back to Disney because that reminds me, you know, a great story that last week, was in Disney World in Orlando. My wife and I have three daughters. And on the last day, my wife, one of the restaurants asked the server, you know, what's it like to work here?

00;41;31;15 - 00;41;54;00
Paul Sullivan
And she was a few of, and what she was talking about wasn't how much she got paid. It wasn't her colleague. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't us. It wasn't the guests. You know, who may or may not leave a a decent tip. She was a fugitive about the care and parenting plan that Disney had. And her husband also worked for Disney.

00;41;54;00 - 00;42;13;26
Paul Sullivan
And they were able to maneuver their schedule so he could drop their daughter off. She could pick them up. But what she kept talking about was they had childcare for $10, $10 a day. The company subsidized the rest of it. She knew that her her daughter was in a safe place, to to to grow and thrive. And when it came to vacations, they had something.

00;42;14;03 - 00;42;45;05
Paul Sullivan
And it really brings me back to what you were saying, that, you know, people don't leave companies because they get a 3% pay increase someplace else. If you get 100% pay increase, everybody's going to leave. They leave because of, you know, managers. And so I already asked you for one last, but I'm gonna ask you again, when you think of those, you know, managers in Australia who might reach out to you, you know, what is the takeaway that you can, can give them so that they're going to create that in a Disney like work environment where people will never leave and they won't leave because it's the culture.

00;42;45;05 - 00;42;49;10
Paul Sullivan
It's not the three, five, 7% raise each year.

00;42;49;13 - 00;43;17;05
Michael Ray
Yeah. It's showing that the most important thing in the world to you, your family, is also important to them. They don't want to become, a friction on your family when they show you family's important. If something catastrophic happened. Yep. No worries. Pack, go get to the hospital. Do whatever it. It shouldn't have to come to catastrophe. It should be constant.

00;43;17;05 - 00;43;38;09
Michael Ray
How can we help you? How can we work together? It can't be all for us and none for you. If you want to engender that genuine appreciation and connection for the company, include their family. Realize that your policies not only impact your workforce and impact their families. And that's the sort of company the people want to work for.

00;43;38;14 - 00;43;59;29
Michael Ray
And that's what a company should be aiming for. Rather than stop appreciation and return for shareholders. It's look at the the environment, the community that we've built for our family, you know, our workers, they're involved in the community, they're connected with their family. They're happy and we're more productive because of it.

00;44;00;03 - 00;44;05;08
Paul Sullivan
Margaret, thank you again for being my guest today on the company. That podcast.

00;44;05;10 - 00;44;07;11
Michael Ray
Thank you for.

00;44;07;13 - 00;44;36;04
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the company of that podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do. The company that possible, Helder Mira, who is our audio producer Lynsey Decker, handles all of our social media. Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me on many of the things that we do here at the Company of Dads.

00;44;36;04 - 00;44;50;12
Paul Sullivan
It's a great team. And we're we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad. Sign up at the company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Thank you again for listening.